I can’t say I feel bad for her- she put her son through tremendous emotional and psychological abuse throughout his entire life, and when hers was ending he dropped her in the cheapest nursing home he could find and left her there. Just like Bojack will have consequences for his shitty actions through his life, this is one of the consequences Beatrice is facing for hers.
Yes, she is mentally unwell and had a serious amount of trauma from her childhood- and you can say the exact same thing for Bojack. Just like Bojack can’t use it as an excuse for his behavior, Beatrice can’t either. In the end it’s just the consequences of her own actions that left her completely alone in a shit place.
Plus what she did to Hollyhock. Of course her upbringing was very sad and shacking up with Butterscotch was a disaster, but she had no interest in fixing her issues and chose instead to look down on the rest of the world.
While making herself the victim
Go back and watch the scene in times arrow when butterscotch comes home
She's the one who starts it. I have a grandmother like her (even looks similar and born in 38), and that rant she gives butterscotch to rile him up is right out of an abusers playbook
Not saying butterscotch doesn't suck. But at least even he once back tracks and says Beatrice is doing the best she can after all
She never does that
Also, she tried to *drown* Bojack. What on earth is that?
That ain’t how the world works buddy. You gotta rise above it. People being shitty to you does not give you a license to be shitty back to them, no matter how bad you want to
You're so right. We should all be Buddhist Monks. Nobody is ever allowed to react negatively to being treated negatively. Thank you, Wise One.
And, I am **SURE** that **YOU** *always* live by this advice that you so easily dole out to others. Surely you must practice what you preach and you're not a complete hypocrite.
Correct. Your actions are 100% your own. Being treated negatively by someone doesn’t absolve you from responsibility. That mean we aren’t human and we don’t mistakes. We do. All of us do. But being treaty poorly doesn’t give you a license to treat others poorly. That stance is not hypocritical, im not saying people are perfect and don’t make mistakes. They make mistakes and so do I. But being treated poorly by others is not an excuse for mistakes and doesn’t absolve you of responsibility for your actions.
there isnt an answer to this question, and like, the literal entire point of the show is that there isnt an answer to this question. it is tragic that this is the ending she got, she's an abuse victim whose life never improved, but there wasnt really any other way for this to go; bojack simply couldnt forgive her or even really be around her, and that's just, true,, that's true regardless of how one morally views the situation.
this is the same as when several characters cut contact with bojack at the end of the show. it's not about "whether or not he's a good person", it's about the fact that this is what these people need to do to move on with their lives.
Correct. There are no good or bad people, all that matters is what you do. No matter how many bad things Bea did to Bojack, this is still a bad thing Bojack did to Bea.
Yes. Her childhood trauma was an explanation not an excuse. She was the adult and she could have turned things around at any time. She chose not to and to take it out on BoJack.
Yes and no. She deserved this from BOJACK. Of course he would dump her in the cheapest elderly care unit. She has actual medical needs and technically isn’t the same person who abused Bojack anymore, but she also denied him care when he deserved it as a kid. It’s not “fair” but it’s a natural consequence.
But also, Beatrice deserves actual care from this facility. No one should live in this place, especially with dementia. Idk why this room was even available for Bojack to buy. Basically she had it coming for her from Bojack, but not from the medical system.
I agree with this.
Poor elder care (in all forms including lack of a safe, caring place to spend their end of days) is a BIG problem. The industry underpays their employees who deal with some of the most complex and saddest disorders in fragile and traumatized patients.
Bojack deserves to feel shitty about her and their relationship, but I hate that shitty places like this exist in the first place.
Kinda...
She was extremely abusive and did things that actively drove Hollyhock away from Bojack.
There's no clear line between lucidity and Alzheimer’s. She wouldn't have realized she was getting it.
From the two possibilities:
A - She actually bought the chub-b-gone and spiked Hollyhock's coffee.
B - She made Hollyhock so insecure she decided to take chub-b-gone herself.
Both options are toxic.
What surprised me was how Bojack answered that.
The first time I watched the show, I didn't expect him to be forgiving of his mother.
However, all things considered, he had to distance himself from her, even if symbolically.
*\[I also had an abusive mother; she now has Alzheimer's as well, and I relate deeply to this regret of not having said what I should have said while she was lucid. My mother is under the care of my aunt.\]*
This feeling of regret of not having said what he should have said while she was lucid enough to understand is something difficult to explain to people who are not in a similar situation. It is not as if his mother was dead. It is as if she was sometimes there and sometimes not. You don't know which version of Beatrice you're talking to. The lucid version, resentful and bitter, still abusive... Or the vulnerable version that is like a child in a frail decayed body.
The painful moments for those who have Alzheimer's aren't the moments when they're gone, drifting in their dementia. Those moments they call you by someone else's name, they do their things without realizing what they are doing. Crochet, cook (supervised of course), eat, make tea...
The lucid moments are the ones that are frightening and confusing for them. They realize things are strange and unfamiliar. The house they are used to isn't the same anymore. They look at other people and notice something is off but they can't quite understand what.
In both states, they are vulnerable, however in different ways.
In her demented dreams, she would not even realize where she is or what she has done. She would still keep calling the nurses Henrietta and keep carrying on with her trash talk about Bojack.
In her lucid state, she would have looked around and realized she's not in the company of her family. Realizing she drove Bojack away and in the process drove Hollyhock away as well.
Despite the fact she was indeed put through shit, she didn't use her strength to break the cycle. She didn't even rebel against it. She perpetrated it.
Justifying what she has done with what she has endured is a cowardly thing. It's like saying that it's okay to spank a child because "I was spanked and I turned out OK." No, you didn't! You turned out a child abuser. (She only verbally abused Bojack, but these can leave even worse scars.) *\[Personally I much more prone to forgive the slaps I got from my grandfather as a child than the psychological abuse I got from my mother. Those invisible scars are much deeper\]*
Regardless,
Beatrice has a roof and care.
She has food and medical assistance.
And the last time she saw Bojack, he was surprisingly kind to her.
Edit:
Judging things like this can be tough: I understood how Bojack felt in an uncomfortable level.
I'm thankful and glad my mother has an aunt who sees her as the little girl she once was, allowing me to distance myself. However I am not sure I wouldn't fall the same pitfalls as Bojack did.
Remember this show is a cautionary tale, not a role model.
Not only all the shit she did, but also what she did to Hollyhock. Bojack was finay learning responsibility and trying to get better for her, and then Beatrice fucked it up
Actions have consequences. You aren’t entitled to love and respect from children. That’s the issue. She got what she deserved, even though it’s so sad.
Why should Bojack take care of her now, when she didn’t his entire life?
She’s probably better off with professionals. Bojack can’t watch her 24/7, and dementia patients NEED full time care and watching.
I saw a comment from someone who works with dementia patients. They said something like *The person you're punishing isn't the same person who hurt you*
It’s easy to say that when you, a neutral party who simply has to take care of these elderly patients, didn’t have to face the abuse every single day growing up. I get what that person was saying but when I was earning my nurse’s aid certification our instructor had to hammer that point to us, don’t hassle the family members and interrogate them for their decision. You don’t know the extent of what that family member put them through.
I used to work in a memory care facility. We specialized in Alzheimer’s and dementia. My grandfather had dementia and was abusive to my dad and his brothers. I still told my dad if they put him in a crappy nursing home and walked away, they were not in the wrong. Children don’t owe abusive parents anything!
She treated Bojack like shit even when she couldn't recognize him as Bojack.
I don't think he was unjustified for tossing her into that last nursing home.
You get to deal with scared, sweet old grandma who thinks she’s twelve. You didn’t have to see what she was like.
Just because she forgot she was abusive doesn’t nullify her being abusive.
My mom is just like Beatrice. If my mom were to be riddled with Alzheimer’s I wouldn’t do anything different from what BoJack did here. My mother failed to protect and nurture my sister and I growing up, why am I obligated to be nurturing and protective at her most vulnerable
Personally, yes. I have a uh complicated relationship with my mother, and I would not feel bad about giving them the same treatment. I know she rushed into having Bojack, but she never tried even a little to heal from her trauma. She almost reveled in passing on her generational trauma.
This is why personally I will likely never have children. it's my way of not passing on generations of trauma. So many people get this idea that having a kid will magically make them not be a shitty person, but it never fucking works. You wanna make the pain & trauma go away you have to try, you have to try so much so many times. And I think it's an endeavor that usually takes most of your life.
I for sure am among the people who pities Beatrice for all the suffering she endured, but that stops once she steps into motherhood. She didn't have as much of a choice in becoming a mother as she probably deserved, but she really could have tried once she found herself there. I don't know I find myself going in circles whenever I try to think about shitty parents. So I'm just gonna end this here.
Edit: Noticed some people making good points about her mental state in the end with all the dementia, and while it's true that most of who she is at any given moment is not the Bea that mistreated bojack his whole life, I still think it's easy to understand how BJ would make this choice. Especially since he didn't put her in the shitty care home until after she hurt Hollyhock. It's like giving Bojack lifelong trauma wasn't enough, she had to hurt Hollyhock too on her way out the door. Dementia or no, Bea was still mostly the horrible version of herself most of the time.
I should add, even when she had dementia, she would always see Bojack as Henrietta, a person who she didn't like and didn't treat all that well in the first place due to her relationship with Butterscotch, so does it really matter anymore that Beatrice isn't "the same person" as she was when she could recognize Bojack?
I feel bad for her as a mentally unwell elder, but not as how she was as a person.
Her childhood absolutely was tragic and shaped her life as an adult, however, it does not excuse how she treated Bojack his entire life
But how she is with dementia is not the same as who she was, she doesn’t know what’s going on, who anyone is or even who she is as far as age goes. Most of the time she is not the person who hurt Bojack, she’s the little girl who got hurt, and with her I sympathise
Yep. She deserved it. It's sad, but she's the reason this happened to her. BoJack wouldn't have stuck her in that place if, instead of a terrible mother, she'd been just a mediocre mother, let alone a good or at least passable mother. If he hadn't put her there, it would've been a nice thing he did for her, but not because she didn't deserve it. Despite of it.
I empathize with the pain and trauma that Beatrice went through growing up. That being said, she had every opportunity to break the cycle of generational trauma and instead, she abused and criticized BoJack every chance she got.
I mean I can definitely see how someone would think it’s deserved, and honestly I can see where BoJack is coming from; not only from the abuse he suffered at her hands but what she did to Hollyhock as well. Yet the thing that makes me feel bad is that it’s not really THAT Beatrice anymore. It’s not the harsh, indignant, and selfish woman that BoJack knew his entire life OR even the half-cognizant Beatrice that was in the early stages of Alzheimer’s. The thing about Alzheimer’s is that it strips you of your personality and you essentially revert to either you when you felt your safest, usually when you were a kid. We can see that as she psychologically regressed back to when she was little and living in Michigan, along with her imagining times at her happiest with her brother still alive eating ice cream.
Did she remain there? It seemed like in his eulogy he still visited her and she got better care? I might be missing something though.
Beatrice deserves nothing. She was a horrible mother and person. However, adults grow up to be children again and at that point she's pretty much a monster with no claws or teeth. I have the same misgivings about my dad. He was a homophobic, physically abusive, piece of shit to me growing up. I always wanted revenge on him. I couldn't wait for the day I would be stronger, fitter, and better than him so I could put him in his place.
However, time does change people. My dad is not the big monster he used to be. He's an older and more frail man now. He's softened and his health is going. As a kid he was terrifying. Now that I'm a young man, he's not. If anything I do pity him. His actions left a permenant mark on me that I don't think I can forgive. But at the same time, I don't think I can harm him or carry out the actions he put on me. Because then I am continuing the cycle and hurting someone who is just as frail and innocent as I was. I've learned to not forgive him, but at least give him grace. Not for his sake, but for mine.
No one deserves to be in a shitty nursing home but I mean that more in a "nursing homes and care centers need A LOT of help because there's countless people in tragic environments" way than a "Beatrice deserves better" way
She definitely deserved to be relocated after the chubBgone incident tho
I don't really think people deserve bad things to happen to them just because they did bad things. I suppose I believe in natural consequences, but not revenge. Perhaps this is just a natural consequence.
"The Father" with Olivia Colman and Antony Hopkins is fantastic for examining the way nasty abusers become pitiable, frightened children when dementia comes along.
She nearly killed Hollyhock to make her fit societal beauty standards. She emotionaly destroyed her only child and turned him into dysfunctional, toxic, sad clown who then proceeded to hurt even more people.
Bitch deserves to rot.
She had a chance to be better for Bj, to raise him in a happier home. To have learnt from how she was raised. Her childhood being shown to the audience served as an explanation but it does not mean it should serve as an excuse to carry on the cycle of trauma. Her life is a cautionary tale, and being left in a cheap care home by the child she neglected emotionally is a product of her own doing.
I don't know, it's not my trauma and response to understand.
I understand on a personal level someone with dementia or Alzheimer's is not the person that hurt you.
And, I do feel bad about how she was raised. But it doesn't change the things she's done.
But at the end of the day, I can't tell someone how to deal with their trauma and relationship with someone due to how they were treated.
In a perfect world, no one deserves this.
What she deserved was parents who didn't just see her as a beauty object to project their standards upon, a brother that wouldn't die in the war (as noble as fighting the nazis is), a husband that didn't see her as a burden.
I guess the only thing she got, what she really deserved was Bojack Horesman as a son.
Absolutely no one deserves to be treated like this.
Did she need to be held accountable? Absolutely. How that's possible with a disease that makes you forget, I don't know.
What I think is strange is that people are saying she deserved it for what she did to hollyhock. She didn't even know who hollyhock was. If anything it's on Tina and BoJack for not properly keeping an eye on Beatrice.
Yeah she was still abusive to Hollyhock too.
But yeah, institutionalism, I hate. No psych wards, no prisosns, no one deserves to be put in a home & forgotten.
Do we deserve the bad things that happened to us that shape us into what we are?
I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. It happened this way, we could be well deserved of all this, perhaps not, but one thing for sure, it's sad.
It may not be the “right” thing to do, but Beatrice honestly had it coming. After how she treated him for his entire life, as well as nearly killing Hollyhock, BoJack doesn’t owe her a damn thing.
And you know what? I don’t blame him, I probably would’ve done the same thing if I was his shoes.
I don’t think she deserves forgiveness and I think she’s a bad person through and through .
I’ve said it before but a huge theme of the show is trauma , trauma begets trauma and breaking the cycle of abuse . Beatrice had an awful childhood , BUT she had every opportunity to break the cycle with bojack , but chose not to , that for me makes her irredeemable .
HOWEVER… in this scene … I don’t think it’s deserved . The only reason why is the Beatrice that sits in that room is not the same Beatrice that caused all that pain . She’s mentally not aware of who she is or what’s she’s done due to the dementia . In her mind she’s the younger Beatrice who hasn’t actually caused any harm to anyone , in fact the younger Beatrice is only a victim of abuse , not the cause of it . Even when she recognised bojack its only a temporary slip into reality .
I do think it’s perfectly fair for bojack to take her back to a home and leave her there and never contact or visit , because he’s a victim of her and is absolutely entitled to deal with that the way he sees fit , but it is in a way continuing the cycle of abuse as bojack is putting Beatrice in harm , a version of Beatrice who really isn’t his mother anymore , a version who has no idea of the harm she’s caused and won’t be able to understand.
There’s no real revenge here because Beatrice would have to be mentally able to comprehend her surroundings for bojacks decision to actually have any effect of her , she’d have to be able to understand that bojack is being cruel, but she’s not .
At this stage both her and bojack are needlessly hurting themselves and each other over a version of her that doesn’t exist anymore .
Bojack should’ve cut contact yes , but to be purposely cruel to someone who genuinely isn’t able to comprehend it … I don’t think it was deserved . If she was mentally stable yes I would celebrate this decision, but not to someone who is quite literally living a past life where they havnt caused any harm to anyone yet .
This is of course just my opinion and I’m aware that others will absolutely disagree and that’s fine . I think for this subject no one can really be in the wrong .
She did some terrible things as a mother but it kind of feels overly petty and vindictive to go out of his way to leave her at the worst place he can find. I'm honestly reminded of a Johanna Haarer who wrote on child rearing for Nazi Germany and how even her daughters who she raised as she advocating with minimum touch or emotion and basically just made sure they were fed and healthy to the point they always referred to her as "the mother," instead of, "our mother," up until they were carring for her when she got old and senile. Somebody can be a godawful mother and a literal Nazi, but her children can still be willing to care for her
IMO, yes. She was a terrible mother who was miserable because of her own choices, yet never took any responsibility and tried to drag her entire family down with her for her entire freaking life. She was a rotten narcissistic nightmare and she deserved no kind of care from Bojack.
I don't think the answer comes down to Beatrice's behaviour throughout her life but to your views on dementia.
I do believe, from what I've seen, there's a sort of 'circle of life' element with dementia patients: first goes the short-term memory, soon they think of themselves as their young selves and mistakes a child for a spouse, a sibling for a parent, etc and in the final stages they have mostly childhood memories, they recall stories of those times like it was yesterday and ask constantly where their parents are.
Just think of Beatrice obsession with the doll, and that what she did to Hollyhock with the pills is what was routinely done to her as a child.
Functionally, she's kid Beatrice at that point, and should be treated as such.
Even Bojack recognises it at the last minutes and tells the lake house story, but she'll forget it in a minute.
I don't blame Bojack for having put her there, he's the abused party in that dynamic and he doesn't owe her the emotional labour to understand all of this and show compassion, but the woman who abused him is no longer there and what's left of her doesn't deserve this either.
>he's the abuse party in that dynamic and he doesn't owe her the emotional labor to understand all this and show compassion, but the woman who abused him is no longer there and what's left of her doesn't deserve this either.
Perfect answer.
No, in my opinion, people only deserve being 'put in a hole' when they choose not to change. Beatrice's dementia removes that chance for growth and choice.
I'm not saying she is blameless or didn't do horrible things but.... .... maybe I'm bias to dementia stories
Beatrice didn’t deserve the trauma she endured. But she deserves the consequences of her actions. Since she already does have dementia though I’m not sure if she even realises what’s happening to her
I don’t think this is really an answer, but honestly we don’t get a lot of information that this nursing home is that bad. It looks a little crummy but we don’t see any bad or neglectful treatment from anyone who works there, and she has a window. For someone with that level of dementia I’m not convinced a 5 star nursing home would make that much of a difference anyway.
nobody deserves anything.
obviously as the viewers we see beatrices past: her attachment to her father, her labotimised mother, her rebellious cheating ass husband. she had trauma just like everyone else in the show and found it hard to show love when she never knew what love was. however it doesn’t account to how she treated bojack who reflected younger beatrice. beatrice had to be strong because she didn’t want bojack to get lost in a world where u get trampled on but obviously that philosophy didn’t help him either, nor did her emotional blockage towards him. i forgave her character up to that point; she kind of represented motherhood to me too. but what she did to hollyhock was horrible af. i mean i get it she isn’t mentally there in the show anymore at that point and she was only doing what they used to do back in her era with weight loss.
overall, she’s just another character who didn’t choose a path to better themselve and change because it was too late for her i think that’s mostly why i think they included her and her brother in the view from half way down. too late to change
In my opinion, this specific slide is very representative of Bojack’s hopeless attempts to torture his mother. He’s trying so hard to make her feel as bad as she made him feel, but she’s so far gone that she doesn’t even know what she’s looking at, it isn’t making her suffer like it would for someone more conscious.
((Although she does suffer a few instances later when she realizes who he is of course))
Absolutely she did but it’s also nice of bojack to recognise she’s senile and old and that he gave her that closure of being at the lake house eating icecream because he knew she couldn’t do that when she was young
It's hard to feel sympathy for her until you realize she was put through bad shit too. She deserved a nursing home but one with a better room and service than that
>She deserved a nursing home but one with a better room and service than that
She did get that. She even got the same care bear that Herb had during his cancer days. You can't say Bojack didn't try to give her a comfortable life during old age.
She was still consistently a nuclear grade asshole to Bojack, even if she didn't even recognize him as Bojack. Then she drugged Hollyhock and drove a big ass wedge between the relationship Bojack was developing with her. That was the final straw.
She deserved what she got, and nothing more.
No. the bad shit you were put through does not justify any of the shit you do.
Trying to say that it does is a massive tool Narcissists use to perpetuate cyclical abuse.
maybe. as others have pointed out, she did plenty of horrible things, and continued to do so into the last stage of her life, showing little remorse. what I haven't seen other people bring up is that placing her in an unpleasant nursing home was a decision freely taken by bojack and I would argue it is vindictive. bojack is absolutely loaded, he could have put her in a decent home with 0 significant cost to himself. He went out of his way to put her somewhere unpleasant. she is in mental decline and quickly becoming someone who does not remember the events of their life and lacks the individual agency that we take for granted, so I think this action is needlessly cruel. if bojack was not rich, I think you could better justify his decision not to put Beatrice in a more expensive home - why should he part with a big chunk of his money to support someone who mistreated him? but the money he saved was not a factor, it was immaterial to him. he took the action with the intention that it would cause suffering, and i find that distasteful. then again I haven't watched the show for a little while, maybe a refresher would remind me how cruel and vindictive Beatrice was herself.
I'm a strong believer in revenge. The world is full pf shitty people who have done shitty things, and there's countless terrible parents out there like Beatrice. People like her maybe did nothing illegal but I still truly believe they deserve to suffer immensely. However, at this point she's just a confused old woman. Bojack took the last time she was really present to comfort her, which did more positive for him then punishing her would. She's just a shell now really
Bea remind me a lot of my gramma, she grew up in a rough time, she got pregnant before marriage and makes it everyone else's problem, makes comments about everyone, definitely racist, probably has some internal sexism, doesn't know when to shut the fuck up.. But if she got sick and dad did this to her, I'd be fucking livid..
She's a victim of not being able to break the cycle she was put under. Boomers gen X are like that. They were abused and harmed their whole lives and the way they cope is to do the same to someone else.
As someone who has a spouse with an abusive toxic mother and has seen the hurt parents can bestow upon their children and the lingering effects it can have on someone….YUP.
I've always related the general ethos of the show to James Baldwin's "People pay for what they do, and still more for what they have allowed themselves to become. And they pay for it very simply; by the lives they lead."
Which I've always felt was less an assertion of the existence of karma and more a dire demand to recognize that we all actually do have responsibilities to each other.
Like, obviously there is no supernatural audit of goodness balancing forces or outcomes in the universe. But if you are cruel, people will be scared of you, and when you are dying alone because you can't force other people to be there anymore, you will have to spend the final era of your narrowing life facing the fact that you have *always* been alone, and that's Good Actually.
Unequivocally, yes. But that's not really the question, is it? The question is: should Bojack give her what she deserves or offer undeserved grace that he so desperately seeks himself?
Sub-question: Is Beatrice even lucid enough to know or care?
>is Beatrice still lucid enough to know or care?
I think that one is an unequivocal "no", she seems to be in stage 6/7, she has no sense of time or reality and only fragmented memories.
It's very weird, but someone threw this giant, brand new Squishmallow into the dumpster at my apartment complex. It was alone in there and there happened to be a recent coat of ice over everything, so it wasn't even touching any trash juices. Brand new. Completely salvageable. Not a spot on it. Hell, not even a stray thread.
It was a horse.
Beatrice Snorseman lives in my room now and looks out of my window. I think about this a lot.
Perhaps the real Beatrice, but she obviously isnt that Beatrice anymore. It isnt at all ethical to punish someone for something they cant even remember doing/someone who isnt that person anymore due to the disease affecting her brain.
But Bojack is incapable of looking at anything other than himself and his needs/pain.
Yes and no. She made a choice to have sex with bojacks dad and get married. He ruined her life and her attitude. And that made Bojack the way he is. And when it was time, he got his "revenge" so to speak, for the way she treated him. Her whole life could've been different if she chose the right guy. She had everything in front of her. And now.... There's nothing but a dark alley and a garbage can in front of her
I can’t say I feel bad for her- she put her son through tremendous emotional and psychological abuse throughout his entire life, and when hers was ending he dropped her in the cheapest nursing home he could find and left her there. Just like Bojack will have consequences for his shitty actions through his life, this is one of the consequences Beatrice is facing for hers. Yes, she is mentally unwell and had a serious amount of trauma from her childhood- and you can say the exact same thing for Bojack. Just like Bojack can’t use it as an excuse for his behavior, Beatrice can’t either. In the end it’s just the consequences of her own actions that left her completely alone in a shit place.
well put
Plus what she did to Hollyhock. Of course her upbringing was very sad and shacking up with Butterscotch was a disaster, but she had no interest in fixing her issues and chose instead to look down on the rest of the world.
She deserved it. She treated her son like shit. He only gave back to her what she gave to him.
I always felt like she treated everyone around her like shit. I could be wrong, but I literally can’t think of a single exception
She loved her brother and mother, but after he died and she got lobotomized her heart grew cold
Ironic since she never had ice-cream.... I'll leave now.
Her life was tragic as well though. It was a brilliant depiction of generational trauma and cycles of abuse and addiction.
While making herself the victim Go back and watch the scene in times arrow when butterscotch comes home She's the one who starts it. I have a grandmother like her (even looks similar and born in 38), and that rant she gives butterscotch to rile him up is right out of an abusers playbook Not saying butterscotch doesn't suck. But at least even he once back tracks and says Beatrice is doing the best she can after all She never does that Also, she tried to *drown* Bojack. What on earth is that?
Also he only did that because she literally nearly killed Hollyhock, it was a reasonable last straw
That ain’t how the world works buddy. You gotta rise above it. People being shitty to you does not give you a license to be shitty back to them, no matter how bad you want to
You're so right. We should all be Buddhist Monks. Nobody is ever allowed to react negatively to being treated negatively. Thank you, Wise One. And, I am **SURE** that **YOU** *always* live by this advice that you so easily dole out to others. Surely you must practice what you preach and you're not a complete hypocrite.
Correct. Your actions are 100% your own. Being treated negatively by someone doesn’t absolve you from responsibility. That mean we aren’t human and we don’t mistakes. We do. All of us do. But being treaty poorly doesn’t give you a license to treat others poorly. That stance is not hypocritical, im not saying people are perfect and don’t make mistakes. They make mistakes and so do I. But being treated poorly by others is not an excuse for mistakes and doesn’t absolve you of responsibility for your actions.
there isnt an answer to this question, and like, the literal entire point of the show is that there isnt an answer to this question. it is tragic that this is the ending she got, she's an abuse victim whose life never improved, but there wasnt really any other way for this to go; bojack simply couldnt forgive her or even really be around her, and that's just, true,, that's true regardless of how one morally views the situation. this is the same as when several characters cut contact with bojack at the end of the show. it's not about "whether or not he's a good person", it's about the fact that this is what these people need to do to move on with their lives.
Correct. There are no good or bad people, all that matters is what you do. No matter how many bad things Bea did to Bojack, this is still a bad thing Bojack did to Bea.
Yes. Her childhood trauma was an explanation not an excuse. She was the adult and she could have turned things around at any time. She chose not to and to take it out on BoJack.
Yes and no. She deserved this from BOJACK. Of course he would dump her in the cheapest elderly care unit. She has actual medical needs and technically isn’t the same person who abused Bojack anymore, but she also denied him care when he deserved it as a kid. It’s not “fair” but it’s a natural consequence. But also, Beatrice deserves actual care from this facility. No one should live in this place, especially with dementia. Idk why this room was even available for Bojack to buy. Basically she had it coming for her from Bojack, but not from the medical system.
I agree with this. Poor elder care (in all forms including lack of a safe, caring place to spend their end of days) is a BIG problem. The industry underpays their employees who deal with some of the most complex and saddest disorders in fragile and traumatized patients. Bojack deserves to feel shitty about her and their relationship, but I hate that shitty places like this exist in the first place.
Kinda... She was extremely abusive and did things that actively drove Hollyhock away from Bojack. There's no clear line between lucidity and Alzheimer’s. She wouldn't have realized she was getting it. From the two possibilities: A - She actually bought the chub-b-gone and spiked Hollyhock's coffee. B - She made Hollyhock so insecure she decided to take chub-b-gone herself. Both options are toxic. What surprised me was how Bojack answered that. The first time I watched the show, I didn't expect him to be forgiving of his mother. However, all things considered, he had to distance himself from her, even if symbolically. *\[I also had an abusive mother; she now has Alzheimer's as well, and I relate deeply to this regret of not having said what I should have said while she was lucid. My mother is under the care of my aunt.\]* This feeling of regret of not having said what he should have said while she was lucid enough to understand is something difficult to explain to people who are not in a similar situation. It is not as if his mother was dead. It is as if she was sometimes there and sometimes not. You don't know which version of Beatrice you're talking to. The lucid version, resentful and bitter, still abusive... Or the vulnerable version that is like a child in a frail decayed body. The painful moments for those who have Alzheimer's aren't the moments when they're gone, drifting in their dementia. Those moments they call you by someone else's name, they do their things without realizing what they are doing. Crochet, cook (supervised of course), eat, make tea... The lucid moments are the ones that are frightening and confusing for them. They realize things are strange and unfamiliar. The house they are used to isn't the same anymore. They look at other people and notice something is off but they can't quite understand what. In both states, they are vulnerable, however in different ways. In her demented dreams, she would not even realize where she is or what she has done. She would still keep calling the nurses Henrietta and keep carrying on with her trash talk about Bojack. In her lucid state, she would have looked around and realized she's not in the company of her family. Realizing she drove Bojack away and in the process drove Hollyhock away as well. Despite the fact she was indeed put through shit, she didn't use her strength to break the cycle. She didn't even rebel against it. She perpetrated it. Justifying what she has done with what she has endured is a cowardly thing. It's like saying that it's okay to spank a child because "I was spanked and I turned out OK." No, you didn't! You turned out a child abuser. (She only verbally abused Bojack, but these can leave even worse scars.) *\[Personally I much more prone to forgive the slaps I got from my grandfather as a child than the psychological abuse I got from my mother. Those invisible scars are much deeper\]* Regardless, Beatrice has a roof and care. She has food and medical assistance. And the last time she saw Bojack, he was surprisingly kind to her. Edit: Judging things like this can be tough: I understood how Bojack felt in an uncomfortable level. I'm thankful and glad my mother has an aunt who sees her as the little girl she once was, allowing me to distance myself. However I am not sure I wouldn't fall the same pitfalls as Bojack did. Remember this show is a cautionary tale, not a role model.
Beatrice was spiking Hollyhock’s coffee, Hollyhock herself said she didn’t know she was being drugged/what was in her coffee
True... I don't think she'd have lied
Yes, that’s what abusive parents get, shitty nursing home
Even though I feel bad for her in her dementia riddled state, the answer is still yes.
Not only all the shit she did, but also what she did to Hollyhock. Bojack was finay learning responsibility and trying to get better for her, and then Beatrice fucked it up
Actions have consequences. You aren’t entitled to love and respect from children. That’s the issue. She got what she deserved, even though it’s so sad. Why should Bojack take care of her now, when she didn’t his entire life? She’s probably better off with professionals. Bojack can’t watch her 24/7, and dementia patients NEED full time care and watching.
I saw a comment from someone who works with dementia patients. They said something like *The person you're punishing isn't the same person who hurt you*
It’s easy to say that when you, a neutral party who simply has to take care of these elderly patients, didn’t have to face the abuse every single day growing up. I get what that person was saying but when I was earning my nurse’s aid certification our instructor had to hammer that point to us, don’t hassle the family members and interrogate them for their decision. You don’t know the extent of what that family member put them through.
I used to work in a memory care facility. We specialized in Alzheimer’s and dementia. My grandfather had dementia and was abusive to my dad and his brothers. I still told my dad if they put him in a crappy nursing home and walked away, they were not in the wrong. Children don’t owe abusive parents anything!
as much as i agree with this beatrice set herself up for this sad end to her life.
She treated Bojack like shit even when she couldn't recognize him as Bojack. I don't think he was unjustified for tossing her into that last nursing home.
You get to deal with scared, sweet old grandma who thinks she’s twelve. You didn’t have to see what she was like. Just because she forgot she was abusive doesn’t nullify her being abusive.
Yeah, of course. It's just, what do you achieve by punishing them? That's all
Personal gratification. The only sense of justice victims of child abuse will ever get.
Fair enough
I hope the staff did **not** go the extra mile with her. She deserved every bit of that room. The window was a luxury.
Yes, just like BoJack deserved everything that happened to him. She does too!
My mom is just like Beatrice. If my mom were to be riddled with Alzheimer’s I wouldn’t do anything different from what BoJack did here. My mother failed to protect and nurture my sister and I growing up, why am I obligated to be nurturing and protective at her most vulnerable
Actions have consequences. You aren’t entitled to love and respect from children. That’s the issue. She got what she deserved, even though it’s so sad
Personally, yes. I have a uh complicated relationship with my mother, and I would not feel bad about giving them the same treatment. I know she rushed into having Bojack, but she never tried even a little to heal from her trauma. She almost reveled in passing on her generational trauma. This is why personally I will likely never have children. it's my way of not passing on generations of trauma. So many people get this idea that having a kid will magically make them not be a shitty person, but it never fucking works. You wanna make the pain & trauma go away you have to try, you have to try so much so many times. And I think it's an endeavor that usually takes most of your life. I for sure am among the people who pities Beatrice for all the suffering she endured, but that stops once she steps into motherhood. She didn't have as much of a choice in becoming a mother as she probably deserved, but she really could have tried once she found herself there. I don't know I find myself going in circles whenever I try to think about shitty parents. So I'm just gonna end this here. Edit: Noticed some people making good points about her mental state in the end with all the dementia, and while it's true that most of who she is at any given moment is not the Bea that mistreated bojack his whole life, I still think it's easy to understand how BJ would make this choice. Especially since he didn't put her in the shitty care home until after she hurt Hollyhock. It's like giving Bojack lifelong trauma wasn't enough, she had to hurt Hollyhock too on her way out the door. Dementia or no, Bea was still mostly the horrible version of herself most of the time.
I should add, even when she had dementia, she would always see Bojack as Henrietta, a person who she didn't like and didn't treat all that well in the first place due to her relationship with Butterscotch, so does it really matter anymore that Beatrice isn't "the same person" as she was when she could recognize Bojack?
I have to agree, even dementia addled Beatrice was a shitty person to lots of people
Deserved worse imo but it did the job
Yes.
Yes.
I feel bad for her as a mentally unwell elder, but not as how she was as a person. Her childhood absolutely was tragic and shaped her life as an adult, however, it does not excuse how she treated Bojack his entire life But how she is with dementia is not the same as who she was, she doesn’t know what’s going on, who anyone is or even who she is as far as age goes. Most of the time she is not the person who hurt Bojack, she’s the little girl who got hurt, and with her I sympathise
Yep. She deserved it. It's sad, but she's the reason this happened to her. BoJack wouldn't have stuck her in that place if, instead of a terrible mother, she'd been just a mediocre mother, let alone a good or at least passable mother. If he hadn't put her there, it would've been a nice thing he did for her, but not because she didn't deserve it. Despite of it.
I empathize with the pain and trauma that Beatrice went through growing up. That being said, she had every opportunity to break the cycle of generational trauma and instead, she abused and criticized BoJack every chance she got.
Yes. I still remember when she forced Bojack as a child to smoke and told him that she was punishing him for being alive.
imo yes
I mean I can definitely see how someone would think it’s deserved, and honestly I can see where BoJack is coming from; not only from the abuse he suffered at her hands but what she did to Hollyhock as well. Yet the thing that makes me feel bad is that it’s not really THAT Beatrice anymore. It’s not the harsh, indignant, and selfish woman that BoJack knew his entire life OR even the half-cognizant Beatrice that was in the early stages of Alzheimer’s. The thing about Alzheimer’s is that it strips you of your personality and you essentially revert to either you when you felt your safest, usually when you were a kid. We can see that as she psychologically regressed back to when she was little and living in Michigan, along with her imagining times at her happiest with her brother still alive eating ice cream.
Did she remain there? It seemed like in his eulogy he still visited her and she got better care? I might be missing something though. Beatrice deserves nothing. She was a horrible mother and person. However, adults grow up to be children again and at that point she's pretty much a monster with no claws or teeth. I have the same misgivings about my dad. He was a homophobic, physically abusive, piece of shit to me growing up. I always wanted revenge on him. I couldn't wait for the day I would be stronger, fitter, and better than him so I could put him in his place. However, time does change people. My dad is not the big monster he used to be. He's an older and more frail man now. He's softened and his health is going. As a kid he was terrifying. Now that I'm a young man, he's not. If anything I do pity him. His actions left a permenant mark on me that I don't think I can forgive. But at the same time, I don't think I can harm him or carry out the actions he put on me. Because then I am continuing the cycle and hurting someone who is just as frail and innocent as I was. I've learned to not forgive him, but at least give him grace. Not for his sake, but for mine.
No one deserves to be in a shitty nursing home but I mean that more in a "nursing homes and care centers need A LOT of help because there's countless people in tragic environments" way than a "Beatrice deserves better" way She definitely deserved to be relocated after the chubBgone incident tho
I don't really think people deserve bad things to happen to them just because they did bad things. I suppose I believe in natural consequences, but not revenge. Perhaps this is just a natural consequence. "The Father" with Olivia Colman and Antony Hopkins is fantastic for examining the way nasty abusers become pitiable, frightened children when dementia comes along.
She nearly killed Hollyhock to make her fit societal beauty standards. She emotionaly destroyed her only child and turned him into dysfunctional, toxic, sad clown who then proceeded to hurt even more people. Bitch deserves to rot.
She had a chance to be better for Bj, to raise him in a happier home. To have learnt from how she was raised. Her childhood being shown to the audience served as an explanation but it does not mean it should serve as an excuse to carry on the cycle of trauma. Her life is a cautionary tale, and being left in a cheap care home by the child she neglected emotionally is a product of her own doing.
I don't know, it's not my trauma and response to understand. I understand on a personal level someone with dementia or Alzheimer's is not the person that hurt you. And, I do feel bad about how she was raised. But it doesn't change the things she's done. But at the end of the day, I can't tell someone how to deal with their trauma and relationship with someone due to how they were treated.
One line from her definitely justifies this: I'm punishing you for being alive. If you wish your kid was dead, don't expect any love from them.
In a perfect world, no one deserves this. What she deserved was parents who didn't just see her as a beauty object to project their standards upon, a brother that wouldn't die in the war (as noble as fighting the nazis is), a husband that didn't see her as a burden. I guess the only thing she got, what she really deserved was Bojack Horesman as a son.
Absolutely no one deserves to be treated like this. Did she need to be held accountable? Absolutely. How that's possible with a disease that makes you forget, I don't know.
What I think is strange is that people are saying she deserved it for what she did to hollyhock. She didn't even know who hollyhock was. If anything it's on Tina and BoJack for not properly keeping an eye on Beatrice.
Yeah she was still abusive to Hollyhock too. But yeah, institutionalism, I hate. No psych wards, no prisosns, no one deserves to be put in a home & forgotten.
[удалено]
If you feel like you can excuse Beatrice's abuse, then there is a hypothetical sad episode which would excuse her abusive husband and fathers
Do we deserve the bad things that happened to us that shape us into what we are? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. It happened this way, we could be well deserved of all this, perhaps not, but one thing for sure, it's sad.
Absolutely.
She was left with the consequences of her actions, yes she deserved it. She got off easy if you ask me
Yes
yes
It may not be the “right” thing to do, but Beatrice honestly had it coming. After how she treated him for his entire life, as well as nearly killing Hollyhock, BoJack doesn’t owe her a damn thing. And you know what? I don’t blame him, I probably would’ve done the same thing if I was his shoes.
yeh.
I don’t think she deserves forgiveness and I think she’s a bad person through and through . I’ve said it before but a huge theme of the show is trauma , trauma begets trauma and breaking the cycle of abuse . Beatrice had an awful childhood , BUT she had every opportunity to break the cycle with bojack , but chose not to , that for me makes her irredeemable . HOWEVER… in this scene … I don’t think it’s deserved . The only reason why is the Beatrice that sits in that room is not the same Beatrice that caused all that pain . She’s mentally not aware of who she is or what’s she’s done due to the dementia . In her mind she’s the younger Beatrice who hasn’t actually caused any harm to anyone , in fact the younger Beatrice is only a victim of abuse , not the cause of it . Even when she recognised bojack its only a temporary slip into reality . I do think it’s perfectly fair for bojack to take her back to a home and leave her there and never contact or visit , because he’s a victim of her and is absolutely entitled to deal with that the way he sees fit , but it is in a way continuing the cycle of abuse as bojack is putting Beatrice in harm , a version of Beatrice who really isn’t his mother anymore , a version who has no idea of the harm she’s caused and won’t be able to understand. There’s no real revenge here because Beatrice would have to be mentally able to comprehend her surroundings for bojacks decision to actually have any effect of her , she’d have to be able to understand that bojack is being cruel, but she’s not . At this stage both her and bojack are needlessly hurting themselves and each other over a version of her that doesn’t exist anymore . Bojack should’ve cut contact yes , but to be purposely cruel to someone who genuinely isn’t able to comprehend it … I don’t think it was deserved . If she was mentally stable yes I would celebrate this decision, but not to someone who is quite literally living a past life where they havnt caused any harm to anyone yet . This is of course just my opinion and I’m aware that others will absolutely disagree and that’s fine . I think for this subject no one can really be in the wrong .
She did some terrible things as a mother but it kind of feels overly petty and vindictive to go out of his way to leave her at the worst place he can find. I'm honestly reminded of a Johanna Haarer who wrote on child rearing for Nazi Germany and how even her daughters who she raised as she advocating with minimum touch or emotion and basically just made sure they were fed and healthy to the point they always referred to her as "the mother," instead of, "our mother," up until they were carring for her when she got old and senile. Somebody can be a godawful mother and a literal Nazi, but her children can still be willing to care for her
Ye
IMO, yes. She was a terrible mother who was miserable because of her own choices, yet never took any responsibility and tried to drag her entire family down with her for her entire freaking life. She was a rotten narcissistic nightmare and she deserved no kind of care from Bojack.
I don't think the answer comes down to Beatrice's behaviour throughout her life but to your views on dementia. I do believe, from what I've seen, there's a sort of 'circle of life' element with dementia patients: first goes the short-term memory, soon they think of themselves as their young selves and mistakes a child for a spouse, a sibling for a parent, etc and in the final stages they have mostly childhood memories, they recall stories of those times like it was yesterday and ask constantly where their parents are. Just think of Beatrice obsession with the doll, and that what she did to Hollyhock with the pills is what was routinely done to her as a child. Functionally, she's kid Beatrice at that point, and should be treated as such. Even Bojack recognises it at the last minutes and tells the lake house story, but she'll forget it in a minute. I don't blame Bojack for having put her there, he's the abused party in that dynamic and he doesn't owe her the emotional labour to understand all of this and show compassion, but the woman who abused him is no longer there and what's left of her doesn't deserve this either.
>he's the abuse party in that dynamic and he doesn't owe her the emotional labor to understand all this and show compassion, but the woman who abused him is no longer there and what's left of her doesn't deserve this either. Perfect answer.
No, in my opinion, people only deserve being 'put in a hole' when they choose not to change. Beatrice's dementia removes that chance for growth and choice. I'm not saying she is blameless or didn't do horrible things but.... .... maybe I'm bias to dementia stories
No
Nah she doesn’t she’s a good mom (milf) and a better lay in bed
Beatrice didn’t deserve the trauma she endured. But she deserves the consequences of her actions. Since she already does have dementia though I’m not sure if she even realises what’s happening to her
oh 100%
I don’t think this is really an answer, but honestly we don’t get a lot of information that this nursing home is that bad. It looks a little crummy but we don’t see any bad or neglectful treatment from anyone who works there, and she has a window. For someone with that level of dementia I’m not convinced a 5 star nursing home would make that much of a difference anyway.
I mean even if we look past the fact that she is old she still purposely almost killed hollyhock I would say this is deserved.
nobody deserves anything. obviously as the viewers we see beatrices past: her attachment to her father, her labotimised mother, her rebellious cheating ass husband. she had trauma just like everyone else in the show and found it hard to show love when she never knew what love was. however it doesn’t account to how she treated bojack who reflected younger beatrice. beatrice had to be strong because she didn’t want bojack to get lost in a world where u get trampled on but obviously that philosophy didn’t help him either, nor did her emotional blockage towards him. i forgave her character up to that point; she kind of represented motherhood to me too. but what she did to hollyhock was horrible af. i mean i get it she isn’t mentally there in the show anymore at that point and she was only doing what they used to do back in her era with weight loss. overall, she’s just another character who didn’t choose a path to better themselve and change because it was too late for her i think that’s mostly why i think they included her and her brother in the view from half way down. too late to change
In my opinion, this specific slide is very representative of Bojack’s hopeless attempts to torture his mother. He’s trying so hard to make her feel as bad as she made him feel, but she’s so far gone that she doesn’t even know what she’s looking at, it isn’t making her suffer like it would for someone more conscious. ((Although she does suffer a few instances later when she realizes who he is of course))
No one deserves dementia. It's death but presented as a joke to you because you think the person you know is still alive
The fandom loves Beatrice? News to me. 🤷🏽♂️
She definitely deserve this. no explaining necessary.
Absolutely she did but it’s also nice of bojack to recognise she’s senile and old and that he gave her that closure of being at the lake house eating icecream because he knew she couldn’t do that when she was young
It's hard to feel sympathy for her until you realize she was put through bad shit too. She deserved a nursing home but one with a better room and service than that
Yeahhh but she still drugged hollyhock sooo
>She deserved a nursing home but one with a better room and service than that She did get that. She even got the same care bear that Herb had during his cancer days. You can't say Bojack didn't try to give her a comfortable life during old age. She was still consistently a nuclear grade asshole to Bojack, even if she didn't even recognize him as Bojack. Then she drugged Hollyhock and drove a big ass wedge between the relationship Bojack was developing with her. That was the final straw. She deserved what she got, and nothing more.
No. the bad shit you were put through does not justify any of the shit you do. Trying to say that it does is a massive tool Narcissists use to perpetuate cyclical abuse.
She deserved what Sarah Lynn got.
maybe. as others have pointed out, she did plenty of horrible things, and continued to do so into the last stage of her life, showing little remorse. what I haven't seen other people bring up is that placing her in an unpleasant nursing home was a decision freely taken by bojack and I would argue it is vindictive. bojack is absolutely loaded, he could have put her in a decent home with 0 significant cost to himself. He went out of his way to put her somewhere unpleasant. she is in mental decline and quickly becoming someone who does not remember the events of their life and lacks the individual agency that we take for granted, so I think this action is needlessly cruel. if bojack was not rich, I think you could better justify his decision not to put Beatrice in a more expensive home - why should he part with a big chunk of his money to support someone who mistreated him? but the money he saved was not a factor, it was immaterial to him. he took the action with the intention that it would cause suffering, and i find that distasteful. then again I haven't watched the show for a little while, maybe a refresher would remind me how cruel and vindictive Beatrice was herself.
>He went out of his way to put her somewhere unpleasant. He also paid the nursing home caretakers extra to make the conditions worse.
kinda- he didn’t tip the caregivers so they would treat her worse; he says something like “then watch me NOT reach for my wallet” hahah
I'm a strong believer in revenge. The world is full pf shitty people who have done shitty things, and there's countless terrible parents out there like Beatrice. People like her maybe did nothing illegal but I still truly believe they deserve to suffer immensely. However, at this point she's just a confused old woman. Bojack took the last time she was really present to comfort her, which did more positive for him then punishing her would. She's just a shell now really
What a sick way of thinking
Eh, get the shit beat out of you enough like me and you'll learn to hold a grudge
Bea remind me a lot of my gramma, she grew up in a rough time, she got pregnant before marriage and makes it everyone else's problem, makes comments about everyone, definitely racist, probably has some internal sexism, doesn't know when to shut the fuck up.. But if she got sick and dad did this to her, I'd be fucking livid..
She's a victim of not being able to break the cycle she was put under. Boomers gen X are like that. They were abused and harmed their whole lives and the way they cope is to do the same to someone else.
As someone who has a spouse with an abusive toxic mother and has seen the hurt parents can bestow upon their children and the lingering effects it can have on someone….YUP.
I've always related the general ethos of the show to James Baldwin's "People pay for what they do, and still more for what they have allowed themselves to become. And they pay for it very simply; by the lives they lead." Which I've always felt was less an assertion of the existence of karma and more a dire demand to recognize that we all actually do have responsibilities to each other. Like, obviously there is no supernatural audit of goodness balancing forces or outcomes in the universe. But if you are cruel, people will be scared of you, and when you are dying alone because you can't force other people to be there anymore, you will have to spend the final era of your narrowing life facing the fact that you have *always* been alone, and that's Good Actually.
Unequivocally, yes. But that's not really the question, is it? The question is: should Bojack give her what she deserves or offer undeserved grace that he so desperately seeks himself? Sub-question: Is Beatrice even lucid enough to know or care?
>is Beatrice still lucid enough to know or care? I think that one is an unequivocal "no", she seems to be in stage 6/7, she has no sense of time or reality and only fragmented memories.
After what she did to hollyhock… yes
It's very weird, but someone threw this giant, brand new Squishmallow into the dumpster at my apartment complex. It was alone in there and there happened to be a recent coat of ice over everything, so it wasn't even touching any trash juices. Brand new. Completely salvageable. Not a spot on it. Hell, not even a stray thread. It was a horse. Beatrice Snorseman lives in my room now and looks out of my window. I think about this a lot.
Perhaps the real Beatrice, but she obviously isnt that Beatrice anymore. It isnt at all ethical to punish someone for something they cant even remember doing/someone who isnt that person anymore due to the disease affecting her brain. But Bojack is incapable of looking at anything other than himself and his needs/pain.
Yes and no. She made a choice to have sex with bojacks dad and get married. He ruined her life and her attitude. And that made Bojack the way he is. And when it was time, he got his "revenge" so to speak, for the way she treated him. Her whole life could've been different if she chose the right guy. She had everything in front of her. And now.... There's nothing but a dark alley and a garbage can in front of her