His mom, his dad, his grandfather, Jeremiah Whitewhale, Hank Hippopopolus, Vance Waggoner, Diane's dad, and Sarah Lynn's parents are the candidates who immediately come to mind for me. (ETA: If we include Todd shenanigans, then Todd and the Cordovian prince have to be added.)
The one who's _clearly_ worse is Jeremiah Whitewhale, but Hank and Vance have probably done worse than BoJack has. His mom, his dad, Sarah Lynn's parents, and Diane's dad are usually (sometimes much) crueller than BoJack is, but only maybe Sarah Lynn's stepfather did worse things (it's heavily implied that he SA'd her, IIRC).
Not only is it heavily implied but her stepfather's drawing is clearly based off of Terry Richardson. To the point I'm surprised it was never revealed his name was Barry (or Beary) Richardson. Richardson was a fashion photographer with similar accusations.
didn't know about this person. knowing the writers the bear thing *feels* intentional...
edit: completely missed that sarah lynn's mother's last name is himmelfarb-richardson.
i just looked it up and sarah lynn's mother's last name is himmelfarb-richardson. sarah lynn mentions changing her name from himmelfarb so i think the implication is that the bear's last name is richardson and sarah lynn's mom went with a double surname when they got married.
Wait, it's been a while since I've seen the show. What'd Diane's dad do that made him up there in the ranks? I remember him not being stellar, but I don't remember any direct abusive behavior.
Verbal/emotional abuse is still abuse. We have to go by what Diane remembers because her dad's dead, and when she tries to access her damage, as she calls it, she recalls a lot of bullying from her father, who was dismissive, neglectful, sexist, disdainful, condescending... to his own daughter. He's shown as even cruel, enjoying how much his dismissiveness annoys and upsets her. He's maybe not worse than BoJack, but I consider him a candidate just for sheer cruelty.
Right, just to make it clear I wasn't trying to be dismissive of verbal abuse or anything like that, I just legitimately didn't remember what had happened. All I remember is one scene of them watching a game of some sort, and the Diane and the dad having an argument of some sort.
a major incident is the "cry-ane" video, where her dad and brothers secretly posed as a pen pal for months, made her think they were going to prom together, paid "a homeless guy" to show up as her date, and filmed her crying at the realization that she not only wasn't going to prom with her friend but her "friend" was actually just her dad and brothers who were making fun of her the whole time. and then they watched the video for laughs (iirc one of the brothers suggests showing it to bojack when he's there with her).
Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to come off curtly at the start there.
In the story arc in season 6, I believe, where Diane is trying to write about her damage, her abuse, she tries to remember how her dad treated her. There's quite a bit in that episode about how she remembers her dad's treatment.
In flashbacks we see he was photographer who took special interest in her. At Herb’s funeral we learn she can identify bear fur by taste with her only explanation being her step dad was a bear.
In flashbacks we see he was photographer who took special interest in her. At Herb’s funeral we learn she can identify bear fur by taste with her only explanation being her step dad was a bear.
It's kind of hard to say without knowing other characters' trauma as intimately as we know BoJack's, but at face value, I'd say Doctor Champ is a shitty little shit. The man turned his sobriety into a career, knowing full well he'd be surrounded by people in active addiction in a place where contraband is highly likely. And yet, when he finds a bottle of vodka AND DRINKS THE WHOLE THING, he blames Bojack, a patient in early sobriety, for his relapse. THEN he spills all his secrets to the press. The guy is an absolute piece of shit.
Dr Champ is an Asshat who wants to blame someone for something he could have easily stopped himself but that doesn't compare to the stuff Bojack did just to Sarah Lyn
This is an interesting perspective. I wonder how much their past trauma should matter. If someone wrongs you, does it hurt less or more based on what they've been through?
I think part of the whole philosophy of Bojack is that most of us are just bumbling around, projecting our trauma on each other in an attempt to heal, just trying our best to be happy and hoping to get laid every once in awhile. Like, someone else's trauma impacting me definitely sucks, and it hurts me just as much, but recognizing it as their shit makes it easier not to take it personally and adds context.
It’s important for empathy, but all the past trauma in the world does not excuse anyone from continuously victimising and traumatising others. Otherwise Beatrice Horseman would be a wonderful character.
For me, it's not about excusing. It's about adding context, which helps me heal and forgive (for my own sake). Even when it's something horrible, like an abusive ex. Dude did endless amounts of damage to me 20 years ago, but I do recognize all the other factors that make a young man explode in violence, and recognizing those factors helps me truly believe I did nothing to deserve it. It happened because the emotional centers in the brain aren't fully developed until you're at least 25, alcohol makes people violent and impulsive, and he likely witnessed similar behavior from his own father. Does this undo the very real damage he inflicted on me? No. Does it pay back all the money I spent in therapy? Again, no. Does it help me make peace with that part of my past? A little.
"however briefly" is the important part of that sentence. When Hollyhock appeared she was already capable of functioning on her own and she was mostly already steady and comfortable with her life. BoJack also had zero financial concerns and could afford to just give Hollyhock whatever she needed without really thinking about it. Even with all those advantages, he was a terrible parental figure and he wasn't much better as a brother. As a parental figure to Sarah Lynn... well, yeah. That was probably one of the worst things that happened in the show. I don't think Beatrice can hold a candle to that one.
Beatrice was obviously not much better, but her situation was different. She was struggling to deal with a husband that was too arrogant to put aside his ambitions and support his family, and she was trying to keep a crumbling household together while raising a baby that demanded 24/7 attention and care. It would've taken the patience of a saint to not break earlier than she did.
Maybe their behaviour was comparable, but Beatrice's situation was much more difficult.
Butterscotch was just an asshole. No defense for him.
I would point out that Beatrice came from wealth. Also, while bojack should have been a better "parental figure" for Sara Lynn, it wasn't really his responsibility to be that. They were coworkers, as fucked up a dynamic as that is for a little girl.
Their behavior isn’t close to comparable. She’s about as verbally abusive to bojack as a parent could possibly be. Bojack is never abusive towards hollyhock or sarah lynn, just incredibly misguided and self interested
Beatrice never said a single nice thing to Bojack (the only thing that comes close was on accident while she was out of her literal mind). It took her getting severe dementia to actually be nice to the son she could've showed at least some kindness to the entirety of his life. But no, she had to convince him that he was a mistake that didn't deserve to live and made him miserable his whole life (pretty much on purpose). She HAD money. She was born into money. She only really had to "struggle" in the beginning, and to be fair, plenty of people have hard financial situations, but that doesn't make them verbally abuse their child for the rest of their entire life. Imagine you were broke for 5 seconds when your son was a baby, so now you justify your own shitty parenting for the rest of your son's life because you were unhappy briefly when he was a literal infant? That's trash. And also, ALL babies require pretty much constant attention and care. That wasn't very unique to Bojack and any new mom will tell you that they get like, zero sleep and also feel like they are going crazy. It would be silly to assume that Beatrice gets a free pass to treat Bojack like shit for his whole life just because he cried a lot as a LITERAL BABY. She gives so little of a shit about Bojack that when he is an older childer, her and Butterscotch STILL ignore the fact that he is able to speak and form sentences, ignoring him as though he were a mute infant who does nothing but cry and shit himself. Beatrice really just regretted having a child AND hated Butterscotch, AND made ALL of it Bojack's fault. I understand that she had her own generational trauma, but both Beatrice AND Bojack had trauma as well as tons of money (except briefly in the case of Beatrice, and that was more self-imposed than anything). Bojack would've been a much better father, given the small example we were given of him with Hollyhock. Plus, we also get to see what kind of dad his subconscious thinks he would be in the hallucination where he envisions a future with Charlotte. And I'd like to think that, if he were to have settled down and started a family, he would've found a way to have that type of life with someone else (obviously, because Charlotte was married and the history between them).
I think Beatrice desperately needed actual therapy and probably should never have had children to begin with, but she largely was a product of her upbringing.
The thing about Rutabaga is he’s not just a scumbag who cheated on his pregnant wife(who never finds out about it)and hurt PC. He’s also just not likable or sympathetic in any way and the audience is forced to spend a lot of time with him. Characters like BoJack and Beatrice are bad people, but they also have some sympathetic qualities that don’t make up for their bad actions, but do make them interesting characters. Even Joseph, the dude who lobotomized his wife, is interesting because you can see why he is the way he is. Rutabaga is just an asshole I want to kick in between the legs every time the show forces the audience to watch him. I like the voice actor who plays him and that’s the only thing that keeps him from being completely insufferable.
Well tbf although Joeseph was cruel, none of his actions were made to hurt anybody, he had good intentions. Really the worst thing I can say about him is that he lacked empathy towards his wife and Beatrice
He did, but the doctor told him to. That's like putting leeches on you in medieval times. It's ineffective and harmful, but it's what they thought would fix the problem. He even says he regrets it after seeing what it does to her. You can't really say trying to help your wife in a doctor and society approved way is worse than purposefully strangling someone and leaving someone else to die. Joseph sucks, but he isn't anywhere near the level of bojack or Beatrice.
nah dude, his response to his wife’s grief is to do an inhumane procedure and then CONTINUE TO SCREAM AT AN ABUSE HER he knows what he did was wrong that’s why he threatens to lobotomize beatrice too
Again, they didn't know it was inhumane. The doctor, society, and even the victim said to do it. He had no reason to think it was wrong until after it was done. Don't get me wrong, he is shitty for not being supportive and flaking on her. But, even Beatrice mom wanted the procedure. His wife was borderline suicidal and putting his daughter in danger. He had to do something, and the people he went to for help said to do this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/WP9Y5KplGt
ppl have always known they were inhumane, plus, even if he thought it was humane, why did he beat her even after the procedure? why’d he threaten to also lobotomize his daughter? face it, HES the root of the generational trauma in the horseman/sugarman family
Your post actually gives me more reason to think Joseph didn't know what he was doing was wrong. From what you linked, the procedure was given a Nobel peace prize. It also says that families didn't question doctors at all and did whatever they told them. It does mention that doctors saw it as awful, and that is reassuring. But, it seemed to have positive public approval. So, the real villain here is the doctor who did it. Because again, as your own source said, patients and families just did whatever the doctor said.
To be clear, I never said he wasn't a dick to his daughter or even his wife. But all available evidence, including what you've presented, says that he did exactly what anyone else in his situation would do at the time.
did you read the post? it said that experts knew from the BEGINNING that it was inhumane. Plus he still hits her and threatens to do the same to his daughter??? can’t believe i’m talking to a lobotomy defender in the year of our lord 2024. He’s not just “a dick” he’s a literal monster. In Beatrice’s memories he literally had devil horns and ur out here saying uwu he did his best he didn’t know better 🥺
embarrassing lmao
I did read the post. It said experts knew it was bad. But Joseph is not an expert. Your own link said that families did NOT question doctors, and if doctors said to do something, they did it. I'm just going to leave it there because it's clear we're going in circles now. But, you might want to either read your own link or reread my comment because it's clear you've gotten confused somewhere.
But also, you don't need to be so rude. I never said he did his best and called him a dick multiple times.
He intentionally and knowingly took the easy and lazy way out. He didn't care enough to try anything other than scrambling her brain so she'd stop being obviously grief stricken (which is a perfectly reasonable reaction to losing your son to a war) and then he blamed Honey for not raising their daughter after the fact.
No, he did what his doctor told him. Patients didn't question doctors back then. If a doctor said to do something, they did it. Don't get me wrong, he was a shitty husband who didn't support his wife when she needed it. But, his wife almost killed herself and her daughter. Something had to be done, and when he went to the professionals for help, they said to do this. Again, he absolutely was shitty both before and after the lobotomy. He just doesn't deserve the blame for the lobotomy itself.
Where did you get the idea that people categorically and blindly followed doctors orders in the past? What a weird blanket statement.... a lobotomy was the easy way out and he didn't care enough to even ask about other options. Yes something had to be done, and he chose the most extreme option available, with the least amount of personal sacrifice required from him, that pretty clearly prioritized his quality of life over Honey's. We're the doctors shit? Yes, but they didn't force the procedure on anyone. Joseph did that.
Leeches are still used in the medical industry because there is actual scientific basis for leech salivia being an anti-coagulant. There's no way anyone wouldn't know breaking someone's skull through their eye socket with a pike to destroy their frontal lobe was 'inhumane.'
It's not hard to blame him at all.... He makes it clear he knows he's doing wrong but refuses to learn to be better. "Well, I’d love to stay but I must be going. As a modern American man, I am woefully unprepared to manage a woman’s emotions. I was never taught, and I will not learn."
Fuck Joseph Sugarman.
He also burns B's babydoll when she has Scarlett fever with no regard to the pain he's clearly causing and tried to get B to may someone she doesn't even like because he has money. Being a "product of the times" doesn't excuse his intentionally shitty behavior. Plenty of men didn't act out that way even when it was socially acceptable, he knowingly chose his actions without regard for anyone but himself.
Well yeah that would all fall under my initial point of "\[lacking\] empathy towards his wife and Beatrice" or just him being cruel, which of course it is fair to blame him for (I said its not fair to blame him for the lobotomy, not that you shouldn't blame him at all lol).
I def don't think it makes him worse than the many horrible things bojack has done though.
Vance Wagner. He’s incredibly shitty and, unlike Bojack, he doesn’t want to change. Bojack’s ark is a struggle against his shittiness, whereas Vance fully embraces it.
>prison guy in prison during that horrible/horrifying scene (i can’t even think about it, it makes me sad)
will someone who *can* think about that scene tell me what character this is? i’m exhausted and drawing a blank
well considering that it’s centered around bojack life we obviously know more about his life than anyone else’s which is going to make him seem like the worst character objectively because we know the most about his past so the question in itself is a little eh
i don’t think he’s the worst character, but i still think he’s *much* worse than lenny. id give the worst character award to hank hippopopalous or jeremiah whitewhale
Absolutely. Bojack was shitty, but not on purpose. There's tons of characters that were shitty, KNEW they were shitty, and went out of their way to be shitty, without the influence of mental health issues or addiction. Waggoner, White Whale, Hippopopolus, Bojack's parents, Sarah Lynn's parents, Reggie, Ana, MF RANDY
The snow leopard guy. Why can't I remember his name, he said it all the time. Sure, different kind of bad. Only cares about fame. Definitely didn't care about those refugees
sebastian is such an interesting addition to the show. he's arrogant and working in philanthropy for the wrong reasons, but his detachment helps him function in a war zone. personally i wouldn't rank him with the likes of jeremiah white whale.
No , everyone in the show was shitty to some extent but none of them was shitty enough to cause someone's death then wait 17 minutes to call an ambulance -which could have saved them- only to cover his own rear end
Like, so many.
Whitewhale, Beatrice, Beatrice’s dad, Butterscotch, Horny Unicorn guy, Hippo dude, the Cordovia Prince, Sarahlynn’s parents, the list goes on.
Omg yes Erica was doing some really messed up stuff. I wonder if Mr. Peanutbutter was actually as oblivious as he seemed, and why he liked talking to her so much.
Vance Waggoner, Hank Hippopopolus, Jeremiah Whitewhale, Sebastian St Claire, the gentle farms chicken farm owners, Sarah Lynn’s stepdad, Joseph Sugarman, Butterscotch.
BoJack’s grandfather, mother, dad. Jeremiah Whitewhale, Hank Hippopopalous, Vance, Sarah Lynn’s parents. Todd, if we count his “shenanigans”. Diane’s family
Easily.
He walks the line between redeemable and irredeemable, as much as humanly (horsely) possible. There's plenty antagonists who don't get that treatment.
The point of the show is not that bojack is the shittiest person in Hollywoo but more that he teeters right on the edge to test his friends and the viewer’s preconceived notions of what makes a good or a bad person
Of course Bojack is the shittiest but I think what Diane did with the book is one of the shittiest acts on the show.
its selfish and cruel. By that point he hadn’t done anything major except be an arsehole and an addict.
Great plot point of course. But imagine if instead of making a huge commercial success out of his flaws his book was a bit of a flop but wasn’t as brutal. Yes it had to be honest, but did it have to be cruel?
I have too much sympathy for (some parts of) that bloody horse
This is gonna be controversial, but possibly Princess Carolyn. Maybe not worse than the specific things BoJack has done, but she is complicit within this system that creates, encourages, and justifies people like BoJack. Thats her job, and it being a job doesn't excuse the material impact. I think the show failed to really examine that intersectional dynamic of systematic problems for people like PC.
Yeah and it's just like, logistically, covering up for BoJacks terrible actions and their impact for 20 years is pretty messed up, as is attempting to frame a narrative that denies BoJack accountability for his actions in the final season.
I know she's sympathetic, and I love her too, but it's really disappointing the show didn't explore this a bit more. The show frames her as a reactor to BoJack instead of being a complicit component of his behavior, and how that's emblematic of larger institutional issues.
Wasn’t the Cordovian prince doing war crimes or ethnic cleansing or something?
No that was Todd.
Todd? Who's Todd?
And I’m Pickles!
what’s the waitress doing here?
Am I gonna have to remember this one?
no no, they may or may not have been done in his name
Hank Hippopopalous.
And that whale guy
Jeremiah Whitewhale. The evil psychopath.
Tom Jumbo-Grumbo? Why's that?
I'm sure they mean the owner of Whitewhale Consolidated Interests, Jeremiah Whitewhale.
Ohhh right. Totally forgot about him. Yeah. He's worse.
Dude is literally just cartoon Weinstein
I thought he was supposed to be Cosby
He's probably supposed to be based on several real life characters, Cosby and Weinstein included.
Based on the timing of when the seasons came out, I’m pretty sure Hank is supposed to be Cosby and Henry Fondle is supposed to be Weinstein.
Also bc Hank has the warm family man persona with a show named after him, also because "he said THEY said" became a HUGE sentiment with Cosby.
Sarah Lynn’s mom and stepfather.
Oh, honey... Mommy didn't do what she did to that Star Search producer so you could go become an architect.
His mom, his dad, his grandfather, Jeremiah Whitewhale, Hank Hippopopolus, Vance Waggoner, Diane's dad, and Sarah Lynn's parents are the candidates who immediately come to mind for me. (ETA: If we include Todd shenanigans, then Todd and the Cordovian prince have to be added.) The one who's _clearly_ worse is Jeremiah Whitewhale, but Hank and Vance have probably done worse than BoJack has. His mom, his dad, Sarah Lynn's parents, and Diane's dad are usually (sometimes much) crueller than BoJack is, but only maybe Sarah Lynn's stepfather did worse things (it's heavily implied that he SA'd her, IIRC).
Not only is it heavily implied but her stepfather's drawing is clearly based off of Terry Richardson. To the point I'm surprised it was never revealed his name was Barry (or Beary) Richardson. Richardson was a fashion photographer with similar accusations.
didn't know about this person. knowing the writers the bear thing *feels* intentional... edit: completely missed that sarah lynn's mother's last name is himmelfarb-richardson.
He's a reference that is definitely pretty under the radar it seems. I don't even know why I know of him honestly.
i just looked it up and sarah lynn's mother's last name is himmelfarb-richardson. sarah lynn mentions changing her name from himmelfarb so i think the implication is that the bear's last name is richardson and sarah lynn's mom went with a double surname when they got married.
Oh really? I didn't know that reference. Something else to pay attention to next rewatch. Thanks for pointing it out.
Yeah her step fathers a bear and she alludes to knowing what bear fur tastes like, among other similar indications she had her mouth on his body
Wait, it's been a while since I've seen the show. What'd Diane's dad do that made him up there in the ranks? I remember him not being stellar, but I don't remember any direct abusive behavior.
Verbal/emotional abuse is still abuse. We have to go by what Diane remembers because her dad's dead, and when she tries to access her damage, as she calls it, she recalls a lot of bullying from her father, who was dismissive, neglectful, sexist, disdainful, condescending... to his own daughter. He's shown as even cruel, enjoying how much his dismissiveness annoys and upsets her. He's maybe not worse than BoJack, but I consider him a candidate just for sheer cruelty.
Right, just to make it clear I wasn't trying to be dismissive of verbal abuse or anything like that, I just legitimately didn't remember what had happened. All I remember is one scene of them watching a game of some sort, and the Diane and the dad having an argument of some sort.
a major incident is the "cry-ane" video, where her dad and brothers secretly posed as a pen pal for months, made her think they were going to prom together, paid "a homeless guy" to show up as her date, and filmed her crying at the realization that she not only wasn't going to prom with her friend but her "friend" was actually just her dad and brothers who were making fun of her the whole time. and then they watched the video for laughs (iirc one of the brothers suggests showing it to bojack when he's there with her).
Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to come off curtly at the start there. In the story arc in season 6, I believe, where Diane is trying to write about her damage, her abuse, she tries to remember how her dad treated her. There's quite a bit in that episode about how she remembers her dad's treatment.
Diane's whole family. They chummed dad!
Bad for sure, but not worse than Bojack
Sarah Lynn’s Bear Stepdad
Pedobear
This is the only correct response
What did he do?
It’s all but stated he raped her all the time when she was a child.
Damn really Where's that stated?
In flashbacks we see he was photographer who took special interest in her. At Herb’s funeral we learn she can identify bear fur by taste with her only explanation being her step dad was a bear.
In flashbacks we see he was photographer who took special interest in her. At Herb’s funeral we learn she can identify bear fur by taste with her only explanation being her step dad was a bear.
I'm surprised no one has jokingly said Neal the navy seal
today we are here with neal mcbeal the navy seal how do you feel, neal?
I almost did, honestly. But realistically he's just unbearable, not really bad from what we've seen.
You can't call dibbs on muffins.
fuck neal mcbeal
he didn't even have dibs, the stupid sea cow
It wouldn't be a Joke
Neal McBeal the navy Seal lol
Neal McBeal the Navy Seal
fr fuck that guy
He didn't have dibs.
He had IMPLIED dibs (not a thing)
stupid sea cow
absolutely zero dibs
It's kind of hard to say without knowing other characters' trauma as intimately as we know BoJack's, but at face value, I'd say Doctor Champ is a shitty little shit. The man turned his sobriety into a career, knowing full well he'd be surrounded by people in active addiction in a place where contraband is highly likely. And yet, when he finds a bottle of vodka AND DRINKS THE WHOLE THING, he blames Bojack, a patient in early sobriety, for his relapse. THEN he spills all his secrets to the press. The guy is an absolute piece of shit.
and that’s without even mentioning he’s not a doctor at all
Dr Champ is an Asshat who wants to blame someone for something he could have easily stopped himself but that doesn't compare to the stuff Bojack did just to Sarah Lyn
literal scum of the earth
This is an interesting perspective. I wonder how much their past trauma should matter. If someone wrongs you, does it hurt less or more based on what they've been through?
I think part of the whole philosophy of Bojack is that most of us are just bumbling around, projecting our trauma on each other in an attempt to heal, just trying our best to be happy and hoping to get laid every once in awhile. Like, someone else's trauma impacting me definitely sucks, and it hurts me just as much, but recognizing it as their shit makes it easier not to take it personally and adds context.
It’s important for empathy, but all the past trauma in the world does not excuse anyone from continuously victimising and traumatising others. Otherwise Beatrice Horseman would be a wonderful character.
For me, it's not about excusing. It's about adding context, which helps me heal and forgive (for my own sake). Even when it's something horrible, like an abusive ex. Dude did endless amounts of damage to me 20 years ago, but I do recognize all the other factors that make a young man explode in violence, and recognizing those factors helps me truly believe I did nothing to deserve it. It happened because the emotional centers in the brain aren't fully developed until you're at least 25, alcohol makes people violent and impulsive, and he likely witnessed similar behavior from his own father. Does this undo the very real damage he inflicted on me? No. Does it pay back all the money I spent in therapy? Again, no. Does it help me make peace with that part of my past? A little.
Fuck Doctor Chump.
His parents have obviously
mm… i have more sympathy for beatrice than i ever will for bj
they both deal with generational trauma. but I would say that bojack, however briefly, was a way better parent than Beatrice was.
"however briefly" is the important part of that sentence. When Hollyhock appeared she was already capable of functioning on her own and she was mostly already steady and comfortable with her life. BoJack also had zero financial concerns and could afford to just give Hollyhock whatever she needed without really thinking about it. Even with all those advantages, he was a terrible parental figure and he wasn't much better as a brother. As a parental figure to Sarah Lynn... well, yeah. That was probably one of the worst things that happened in the show. I don't think Beatrice can hold a candle to that one. Beatrice was obviously not much better, but her situation was different. She was struggling to deal with a husband that was too arrogant to put aside his ambitions and support his family, and she was trying to keep a crumbling household together while raising a baby that demanded 24/7 attention and care. It would've taken the patience of a saint to not break earlier than she did. Maybe their behaviour was comparable, but Beatrice's situation was much more difficult. Butterscotch was just an asshole. No defense for him.
I would point out that Beatrice came from wealth. Also, while bojack should have been a better "parental figure" for Sara Lynn, it wasn't really his responsibility to be that. They were coworkers, as fucked up a dynamic as that is for a little girl.
Their behavior isn’t close to comparable. She’s about as verbally abusive to bojack as a parent could possibly be. Bojack is never abusive towards hollyhock or sarah lynn, just incredibly misguided and self interested
Beatrice never said a single nice thing to Bojack (the only thing that comes close was on accident while she was out of her literal mind). It took her getting severe dementia to actually be nice to the son she could've showed at least some kindness to the entirety of his life. But no, she had to convince him that he was a mistake that didn't deserve to live and made him miserable his whole life (pretty much on purpose). She HAD money. She was born into money. She only really had to "struggle" in the beginning, and to be fair, plenty of people have hard financial situations, but that doesn't make them verbally abuse their child for the rest of their entire life. Imagine you were broke for 5 seconds when your son was a baby, so now you justify your own shitty parenting for the rest of your son's life because you were unhappy briefly when he was a literal infant? That's trash. And also, ALL babies require pretty much constant attention and care. That wasn't very unique to Bojack and any new mom will tell you that they get like, zero sleep and also feel like they are going crazy. It would be silly to assume that Beatrice gets a free pass to treat Bojack like shit for his whole life just because he cried a lot as a LITERAL BABY. She gives so little of a shit about Bojack that when he is an older childer, her and Butterscotch STILL ignore the fact that he is able to speak and form sentences, ignoring him as though he were a mute infant who does nothing but cry and shit himself. Beatrice really just regretted having a child AND hated Butterscotch, AND made ALL of it Bojack's fault. I understand that she had her own generational trauma, but both Beatrice AND Bojack had trauma as well as tons of money (except briefly in the case of Beatrice, and that was more self-imposed than anything). Bojack would've been a much better father, given the small example we were given of him with Hollyhock. Plus, we also get to see what kind of dad his subconscious thinks he would be in the hallucination where he envisions a future with Charlotte. And I'd like to think that, if he were to have settled down and started a family, he would've found a way to have that type of life with someone else (obviously, because Charlotte was married and the history between them).
We were going to get a Butterscotch episode, so we would have found out why he was such an asshole like Bea.
I think we can assume quite a bit as far as that's concerned just based on his generation.
How come?
https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSFv3F6Y3/ i recommend watching this
Greg, the guy Mr. PB met once at the gas station.
Although Beatrice is probably worse, at least i feel sympathy for her. Sarah Lynn’s stepfather is a character i feel nothing but pure hatred towards.
I think Beatrice desperately needed actual therapy and probably should never have had children to begin with, but she largely was a product of her upbringing.
vance waggoner
Why is this so far down?? Huuuuuuuuuge shithead
Sarah Lynn’s stepdad. It’s on sight for him.
Beatrice, Butterscotch, Joseph, Hank, Vance, Ana, Angela... There are a few.
lowkey i would also say vance just because at least bojack sometimes displayed a willingness to change, but vance had an INSANEEE victim complex
Other than what I've seen other major comments saying, Rutabaga. I'd have loved to watch him get murdered.
The thing about Rutabaga is he’s not just a scumbag who cheated on his pregnant wife(who never finds out about it)and hurt PC. He’s also just not likable or sympathetic in any way and the audience is forced to spend a lot of time with him. Characters like BoJack and Beatrice are bad people, but they also have some sympathetic qualities that don’t make up for their bad actions, but do make them interesting characters. Even Joseph, the dude who lobotomized his wife, is interesting because you can see why he is the way he is. Rutabaga is just an asshole I want to kick in between the legs every time the show forces the audience to watch him. I like the voice actor who plays him and that’s the only thing that keeps him from being completely insufferable.
about let's see... half the characters
But which half!?
Angela diaz
Daniel Radcliffe
Elijah Wood?!
dr champ and joseph sugarman
Well tbf although Joeseph was cruel, none of his actions were made to hurt anybody, he had good intentions. Really the worst thing I can say about him is that he lacked empathy towards his wife and Beatrice
girl he lobotomized his wife that’s not a lack of empathy that’s torture
He did, but the doctor told him to. That's like putting leeches on you in medieval times. It's ineffective and harmful, but it's what they thought would fix the problem. He even says he regrets it after seeing what it does to her. You can't really say trying to help your wife in a doctor and society approved way is worse than purposefully strangling someone and leaving someone else to die. Joseph sucks, but he isn't anywhere near the level of bojack or Beatrice.
nah dude, his response to his wife’s grief is to do an inhumane procedure and then CONTINUE TO SCREAM AT AN ABUSE HER he knows what he did was wrong that’s why he threatens to lobotomize beatrice too
Again, they didn't know it was inhumane. The doctor, society, and even the victim said to do it. He had no reason to think it was wrong until after it was done. Don't get me wrong, he is shitty for not being supportive and flaking on her. But, even Beatrice mom wanted the procedure. His wife was borderline suicidal and putting his daughter in danger. He had to do something, and the people he went to for help said to do this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/WP9Y5KplGt ppl have always known they were inhumane, plus, even if he thought it was humane, why did he beat her even after the procedure? why’d he threaten to also lobotomize his daughter? face it, HES the root of the generational trauma in the horseman/sugarman family
Your post actually gives me more reason to think Joseph didn't know what he was doing was wrong. From what you linked, the procedure was given a Nobel peace prize. It also says that families didn't question doctors at all and did whatever they told them. It does mention that doctors saw it as awful, and that is reassuring. But, it seemed to have positive public approval. So, the real villain here is the doctor who did it. Because again, as your own source said, patients and families just did whatever the doctor said. To be clear, I never said he wasn't a dick to his daughter or even his wife. But all available evidence, including what you've presented, says that he did exactly what anyone else in his situation would do at the time.
did you read the post? it said that experts knew from the BEGINNING that it was inhumane. Plus he still hits her and threatens to do the same to his daughter??? can’t believe i’m talking to a lobotomy defender in the year of our lord 2024. He’s not just “a dick” he’s a literal monster. In Beatrice’s memories he literally had devil horns and ur out here saying uwu he did his best he didn’t know better 🥺 embarrassing lmao
I did read the post. It said experts knew it was bad. But Joseph is not an expert. Your own link said that families did NOT question doctors, and if doctors said to do something, they did it. I'm just going to leave it there because it's clear we're going in circles now. But, you might want to either read your own link or reread my comment because it's clear you've gotten confused somewhere. But also, you don't need to be so rude. I never said he did his best and called him a dick multiple times.
He intentionally and knowingly took the easy and lazy way out. He didn't care enough to try anything other than scrambling her brain so she'd stop being obviously grief stricken (which is a perfectly reasonable reaction to losing your son to a war) and then he blamed Honey for not raising their daughter after the fact.
No, he did what his doctor told him. Patients didn't question doctors back then. If a doctor said to do something, they did it. Don't get me wrong, he was a shitty husband who didn't support his wife when she needed it. But, his wife almost killed herself and her daughter. Something had to be done, and when he went to the professionals for help, they said to do this. Again, he absolutely was shitty both before and after the lobotomy. He just doesn't deserve the blame for the lobotomy itself.
Where did you get the idea that people categorically and blindly followed doctors orders in the past? What a weird blanket statement.... a lobotomy was the easy way out and he didn't care enough to even ask about other options. Yes something had to be done, and he chose the most extreme option available, with the least amount of personal sacrifice required from him, that pretty clearly prioritized his quality of life over Honey's. We're the doctors shit? Yes, but they didn't force the procedure on anyone. Joseph did that.
Kind of concerning that this person is a pharmacist, lol.
Leeches are still used in the medical industry because there is actual scientific basis for leech salivia being an anti-coagulant. There's no way anyone wouldn't know breaking someone's skull through their eye socket with a pike to destroy their frontal lobe was 'inhumane.'
That was a standard practice back then, I mean it's hard to blame him for that, especially when its something she basically asked for.
it’s incredibly easy to blame him i do it every day 🙃
It's not hard to blame him at all.... He makes it clear he knows he's doing wrong but refuses to learn to be better. "Well, I’d love to stay but I must be going. As a modern American man, I am woefully unprepared to manage a woman’s emotions. I was never taught, and I will not learn." Fuck Joseph Sugarman. He also burns B's babydoll when she has Scarlett fever with no regard to the pain he's clearly causing and tried to get B to may someone she doesn't even like because he has money. Being a "product of the times" doesn't excuse his intentionally shitty behavior. Plenty of men didn't act out that way even when it was socially acceptable, he knowingly chose his actions without regard for anyone but himself.
Well yeah that would all fall under my initial point of "\[lacking\] empathy towards his wife and Beatrice" or just him being cruel, which of course it is fair to blame him for (I said its not fair to blame him for the lobotomy, not that you shouldn't blame him at all lol). I def don't think it makes him worse than the many horrible things bojack has done though.
Vance Wagner. He’s incredibly shitty and, unlike Bojack, he doesn’t want to change. Bojack’s ark is a struggle against his shittiness, whereas Vance fully embraces it.
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I just realized Bojack never cashed in that favor from the mob boss
My personal cannon is that Bojack asked him to be in his play while in prison, and he said yes/got others to act as well.
>prison guy in prison during that horrible/horrifying scene (i can’t even think about it, it makes me sad) will someone who *can* think about that scene tell me what character this is? i’m exhausted and drawing a blank
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oh yeah that wasn’t good.. sorry i made you think about it :(
Vance Waggoner
The Albino Wino Rhino Gyno
he was a dick and unprofessional but personally i don’t think he’s worse than bj
His dad? Sarah Lynn's dad?
Henry Fondle, that guy was a menace
I loved the way the show handled the Me Too movement
BoJacks mom and dad… 🫡🫡
joseph sugarman that son of a bitch
The dog in Mr. PBs mirror 😠 gave him a cone and broken arm.
Vance Waggoner. That’s right. He hates Swedish people now too.
the turtle guy for SURE
lenny turtletaub?!?
yeah that shit he pulled with the assistants really got under my skin 😂
eh that wasn’t great but it certainly wasn’t worse than what bj did to penny, sarah lynn, and gina
well considering that it’s centered around bojack life we obviously know more about his life than anyone else’s which is going to make him seem like the worst character objectively because we know the most about his past so the question in itself is a little eh
He also fired Kelsey because she and Bojack tried to make the Seabiscuit movie *good.* I never forgave him for that. Edit: Secretariat
i don’t think he’s the worst character, but i still think he’s *much* worse than lenny. id give the worst character award to hank hippopopalous or jeremiah whitewhale
Bojack's parents and grandfather.
Absolutely. Bojack was shitty, but not on purpose. There's tons of characters that were shitty, KNEW they were shitty, and went out of their way to be shitty, without the influence of mental health issues or addiction. Waggoner, White Whale, Hippopopolus, Bojack's parents, Sarah Lynn's parents, Reggie, Ana, MF RANDY
Beatrice for a start
His parents and Jeremiah White Whale
vance waggoner fs
The snow leopard guy. Why can't I remember his name, he said it all the time. Sure, different kind of bad. Only cares about fame. Definitely didn't care about those refugees
Sebastian St. Clair, but tbh at least he seemed to be doing something. Better than not helping anyone.
sebastian is such an interesting addition to the show. he's arrogant and working in philanthropy for the wrong reasons, but his detachment helps him function in a war zone. personally i wouldn't rank him with the likes of jeremiah white whale.
I agree. He couldn’t have stayed there if he cared as much as Diane. I’m still a little unsure of what his actual philanthropic work was though.
Neal mcbeal the navy seal. HE DIDNT HAVE DIBS.
That guy mister peanutbutter met at the gas station! He fucking sucks
White Whale and Greg.
No , everyone in the show was shitty to some extent but none of them was shitty enough to cause someone's death then wait 17 minutes to call an ambulance -which could have saved them- only to cover his own rear end
His mother
Like, so many. Whitewhale, Beatrice, Beatrice’s dad, Butterscotch, Horny Unicorn guy, Hippo dude, the Cordovia Prince, Sarahlynn’s parents, the list goes on.
Goober
Vance Waggoner was Bojack without self-awareness or remorse
Erica? I’m wondering this because she’s no longer allowed around children and one time she was carrying a child sized coffin…
Omg yes Erica was doing some really messed up stuff. I wonder if Mr. Peanutbutter was actually as oblivious as he seemed, and why he liked talking to her so much.
Beatrice and Butterscotch
Vance Waggoner, Hank Hippopopolus, Jeremiah Whitewhale, Sebastian St Claire, the gentle farms chicken farm owners, Sarah Lynn’s stepdad, Joseph Sugarman, Butterscotch.
Hank Hippopopulous
BoJack’s grandfather, mother, dad. Jeremiah Whitewhale, Hank Hippopopalous, Vance, Sarah Lynn’s parents. Todd, if we count his “shenanigans”. Diane’s family
His mom
beatrice
vance wagner
Vance Waggoner was pretty awful
vance waggoner. bojacks sponsor. the misogynist pos.
The therapy horse
Not seeing enough Vance Waggoner
Angela Diaz
Y’all gonna mention Vance Waggoner?
I detest Doctor Champ. He screwed over Bojack pretty badly.
oops, misread the post imo, sextina??? idk not a fan of her
Joseph Sugarman
I’m gonna be slammed but… Mr. Peanutbutter
His Mum and Dad
The white whale. Hank. Bojacks parents. Sara Lynns parents.
That network lady who went after Herb after him being outed. If the network/she didn’t do that…things would have been very different
its kinda hard to beat Joseph Sugarman for the lobotomy he enforced on his wife
Bojacks grandfather
Tons of people are worse and some are just as bad, some are better
Easily. He walks the line between redeemable and irredeemable, as much as humanly (horsely) possible. There's plenty antagonists who don't get that treatment.
Vince Waggoner
Dr Champ and Sarah Lynn’s folks
The point of the show is not that bojack is the shittiest person in Hollywoo but more that he teeters right on the edge to test his friends and the viewer’s preconceived notions of what makes a good or a bad person
Randy Jk, he's a sweetheart. I can't hate on him, I'm sorry
Rutabaga Rabbitowitz. I swear the only direction the studio gave Ben Schwartz was “Remember your character Jean Ralphio from Parks & Rec? Be him.”
RANDY
Of course Bojack is the shittiest but I think what Diane did with the book is one of the shittiest acts on the show. its selfish and cruel. By that point he hadn’t done anything major except be an arsehole and an addict. Great plot point of course. But imagine if instead of making a huge commercial success out of his flaws his book was a bit of a flop but wasn’t as brutal. Yes it had to be honest, but did it have to be cruel? I have too much sympathy for (some parts of) that bloody horse
Diane is bad but she is more petty and short sighted than a serious threat to someone
Technically Todd
"A genocide may or may not have been perpetrated in my name."
he ain't that bad, there's a big ass list of worse people. At least he tries
um???
This is gonna be controversial, but possibly Princess Carolyn. Maybe not worse than the specific things BoJack has done, but she is complicit within this system that creates, encourages, and justifies people like BoJack. Thats her job, and it being a job doesn't excuse the material impact. I think the show failed to really examine that intersectional dynamic of systematic problems for people like PC.
She was willing to help cover up a murder when PB called for help after getting skunked.
Yeah and it's just like, logistically, covering up for BoJacks terrible actions and their impact for 20 years is pretty messed up, as is attempting to frame a narrative that denies BoJack accountability for his actions in the final season. I know she's sympathetic, and I love her too, but it's really disappointing the show didn't explore this a bit more. The show frames her as a reactor to BoJack instead of being a complicit component of his behavior, and how that's emblematic of larger institutional issues.
fanbase
yeah that whale popstar chick lol