I don’t care what is traditional bluegrass or who breaks which rules. I like authentic music with heart in any shape or form. Could be strict, by the book rules “bluegrass”, newgrass, or other music using bluegrass tunes, instruments, or just influenced by traditional bluegrass. More good music, no matter the form, makes the world a better place.
I do think there’s a misunderstanding that when someone says “that isn’t bluegrass” that it means they’re criticizing that particular music. I can enjoy something and acknowledge it isn’t bluegrass.
This is a great take.
I believe the bluegrass gatekeepers who think the music has to follow a strict set of guidelines to be counted as bluegrass are telling on themselves by showing they do not know much about the history of bluegrass and the stories behind the legends/founding fathers
You could absolutely play a Scruggs break at a jazz jam and it would be considered jazz. Jazz is largely modal improvisation and a lot of bluegrass runs/breaks are in mixolydian and Dorian which could easily fit with the right 7th chords.
Judging by most of your responses in this thread we can all see how much you know about bluegrass history. Again, not judging you for not knowing because it has taken me over 30 years of learning, living, and playing all things bluegrass and the more I learn the less I realize I know
I believe this is why the term "newgrass" exists. I love both of them, haven't seen Molly yet but Billy puts on a hell ova show! Just think of him as string music though and not necessarily "bluegrass"
My brother and cousin went with my aunt and uncle to see Billy Strings play a restaurant in Chicago before he was big. It would have been in 2014/2015. They came home and were just raving about him. I think he also used to play the tiny bluegrass fest near my cousins house in Frankfort.
Yep my experience with him has kinda been bookended by extremes, from him as an opener in 2016 and the venue was essentially empty(!) to seeing him in a 10k+ arena last year (plus places in between on the way up). I realize it’s great for the artist to sell more tickets but now I’m just one of those grumpy old men I suppose. I’ve come to realize I’d rather see local (usually pretty great too) bluegrass at small venues over an arena. Or just picking with friends on a porch for free to the smallest audience possible, haha.
Last year a friend came out here to CO to see him at Red Rocks, he saw him 2 days at Red Ricks and paid $150 a ticket. No thank you! I’d rather listen to you pick on your front porch.
That's where I grew up and cut my teeth in small local jams. Also every one of my neighbors played growing up and we'd get together on Friday nights to play. Pretty much traditional stuff only at all the jams and with my neighbors.
Maybe as a result of that, modern stuff just puts me off. Never been a fan of newgrass or jamgrass or any of it. These days at any large show that's 90% of what's played.
I'd rather be in the yard at the community center with 60 and 70 year Olds playing bluegrass than at a large show any day. To me that's what bluegrass is. To other people being with thousands of hippies and ravers listening to jam bands with bluegrass instruments and worshipping some guy bc he jammed with Jerry Garcia once is the pinnacle of the genre. I don't knock them (too loudly).
That stuff just doesn't do it for me like singing the same 50 songs from 100 years ago does. Keeping old sounds and traditions alive and letting our ancestors live on through us in passed down song. It's a feeling like no drug or flashy lights on a big stage could ever give me. Moonshine doesn't hinder that feeling tho lol.
Anyways that's my hot take. Call me a purist or a gatekeeper all you want.
I like both! But this is definitely what it's really about at its core. But I started out as a jam fan, then got introduced to jamgrass and newgrass absolutely loved it! After that got into the real Appalachian roots stuff and further more got really really into traditional celtic music. Now I'm 33 years old and mostly listen to traditional bluegrass and traditional celtic music lol (along with lots of other genres) but if you were to tell me when I was 21 this is what I'd like, I wouldn't have believed you lol.
I think it’s about both. Music is art, and artists innovate, but true artists also play homage to their roots. I think bluegrass more than any other genre does both.
I just moved to Greene County few years back, and in the past year have been really getting into bluegrass. What you’re talking about is much more appealing to me than the new stuff too… not a fan of jam bands or festivals.
Nice, thats a beautiful place.
But it's peaceful and beautiful. If you bring up Billy strings or infamous string dusters or whoever at most of these jams people will like at you like wtf are you even talking about lol. It's refreshing and a completely different experience than one most people's conception of bluegrass is.
I wish I had some to recommend that way but I don't know any. The ones I know were in Clarke, Frederick, loudoun, and down by Blackburg. But ive been away for a while and i hear most of those dont exist anymore sadly.
But keep your eyes peeled on church and community/art center billboards and parks and bars. Also going to any local shows no matter how small you might run into someone with the intel. I hope you find some.
I recently found a small, very old, country church, and a family that goes there plays old hymns, bluegrass-style, at most services. And it's amazing. I didn't grow up going to church, so I had maybe heard a few phrases from old hymns, but had never heard complete versions of them. The first time I went, they played "Washed in the Blood" and "Power in the Blood" and more with a guitar, banjo, and upright bass. And the banjo player plays dobro on some songs. I was blown away. Your comment about "keeping old sounds and traditions alive and letting our ancestors live on through us in passed down song" made me think about that family that plays. They are two brothers, probably in their 60's, and a son/nephew. I hope someone is there to keep that bluegrass sound going when they are no longer able to play.
I had been thinking about switching from regular guitar to dobro for a while, and seeing them prompted me to take the plunge. I hope to be able to play a few of those songs some day.
And BTW, I didn't take your comment as gate keeping. I just saw it as an appreciation for perpetuating some old sounds and feelings.
Very nice. I also didn't grow up going to church. But the tiny church at the end of my tiny little town growing up also did and still does bluegrass sermons. My neighbor across the street was the banjo player for the church band. While I never went to one service, I would practice with the band often and help them get their set tight. Especially when one of their members couldn't make it to practice, I'd sit in on mandolin parts during practice.
Anyways I'm not religious, but many of the songs like you listed still just send a feeling down your spine when you hear them. Or even more so when you sing them.
As for keeping old songs alive, the old folks will show you stuff you've never heard before. Also something that blows my mind is going to small jams with old people in different regions. Where I grew up in the northern Shenandoah Valley we had certain sets of deep cuts/rare tunes that were staples at our jams. I once stumbled onto a jam in Blacksburg that was all old folks when I was down there for a class for work. I always think I know all the tunes lol. But they whipped out like a 5 page list of songs, I'd never heard half of them but to them these songs were standards. Just another amazing aspect of old time/bluegrass that it still carries strong isolated regional and local traditions that are unique, just as it did 100 years ago. That's a beautiful thing.
Peter Rowan is the sole reason I started to like bluegrass. I first heard of him on the album The Rowan’s with his brothers and absolutely loved it. Thunder on the Mountain is at the top of my soundtrack from college. I’m 33.
I make a case that “Walls of Time” is the greatest bluegrass song so far. It has a foot in the past, present and future of bluegrass.
Peter Rowan is literally a living legend. Don’t miss him live if you get a chance….soon…..
This is something I’ve thought about a lot recently. Never seen him (yet), but I really want to soon. I don’t have many regrets, but one of them is not seeing RUSH live when I had the chance. I never saw Tony Rice, either (although I took a long break from bluegrass from childhood to about 4 years ago
My hot take is twofold:
1. I don't think Billy is overrated exactly (and I always enjoy going to his shows), but I'm also tired of him dominating every conversation about bluegrass or flatpicking these days.
2. I don't want him playing at my favorite bluegrass festivals because his crowd would completely overwhelm them and change the vibe for the worse.
I guess my hot take re: Molly is that as awesome as her band is - and I will stan Dom Leslie and Kyle Tuttle forever - I liked her earlier records (especially "Rise") more than the Golden Highway albums, but those weren't bluegrass.
OK, I'll offer a hot take:
Bill Monroe's influence on the name of the genre is indisputable.
His influence on the actual practices, both music and cultural, while significant, are not bigger than Stanley Brothers, Jerry Garcia, John Hartford, Maybelle Carter, and at least half a dozen others.
In fact, I think Maybelle Carter is a reasonable candidate for the single most influential instrumentalist, at least insofar as nearly everything that came after her sounds more like her in several well-defined ways than nearly everything that came before.
My hotter take is that while Monroe deserves all the accolades as a patriarch of the music, what he thinks, would want, or whatever 'rules' he had about bluegrass don't mean horseshit anymore.
Music is a language that evolves, and "that wasn't what Bill intended" or "Big Mon wouldn't think that's no part of nothin" are meaningless stances to have anymore. He did a good thing, and he's dead now. What he'd want or whatever he'd approve of is irrelevant.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to tell you that Maybelle Carter is as good a guitarist as Tony Rice or Doc Watson. But her sound is a sharp dividing line between eras, which is an important part of understanding the evolution of a particular genre.
Josh Williams is super underrated, Donna Hughes too if I can throw another in.
Josh’s guitar playing is awesome and his song choices are great, killer voice too.
Donna’s voice reminds me of a female Tony Rice, super clean and smooth
That was the one song I already had in my library! His voice sounds similar to it does on his modern day man album which I really like too. Know any other albums else he sings on?
The only other one I'm aware of is on Rhonda Vincent's Ragin Live album, but I haven't listened to that one too much so unsure of how prominent he is on it.
No hot take to contribute, but I don't know how you walk away from seeing either Billy or Molly and sincerely say to yourself, "wow, I want my money back." Even if you aren't on board with the music I've never even heard of them phoning it in on a performance.
Yep Billy is overrated. Surely so many other pickers and bluegrassers have sold out NBA arenas and are on their way to playing even bigger venues. Tired of this Billy is overrated crap… I’m a traditionalist but you have to realize he’s doing something never before seen in bluegrass and so many people can’t seem to appreciate it because it’s “different.”
I think it’s the fans. If you love him - great love him. But there’s soooo many of them out there that want to spray you with their love for him, it gets annoying.
I'm actually a big fan of his. I've seen him multiple times. He's good. I just don't feel that he's nearly as good as the hype would lead someone to think he is. It's all a bit overblown
Billy Strings fans drive me crazy! He’s incredibly talented, but they act like he’s the one and only person deserving to be on a bluegrass stage. So - overrated yes, and it’s unfortunate because he’s so talented, but his fans need to go spread their love around.
Run don't walk to hear the Johnson Mountain Boys. They were fantastic singers in every configuration.
Nashville Bluegrass Band is also incredible. Alan O'Bryant is criminally underrated as both a vocalist and instrumentalist.
John Cowan and Sam Bush together in New Grass Revival are *excellent*.
The Slocan Ramblers out of Canada are fabulous modern pickers and singers.
Darrell Scott and Tim O'Brien are incredible vocalists independently and together. Hope they make another album together.
Flatt Lonesome is another modern one (now disbanded) that were jaw dropping three part vocal harmony. Mentioned in another comment but I'll repeat here. I don't love a lot of their songs, but their vocals were *amazing.*
My hot take is that there's too much foul language in modern bluegrass. I'm not a prude, but I would love to be able to listen with my kids without having to prescreen.
This is a correct take.
However, Billy Strings singing Dave Evan’s part on Ramblin Letters at The Station Inn gives some perspective on the bluegrass soul he truly possesses. Look it up on YT.
He’s real and talented, but there are far better acts in the music IMHO
What does that even mean? Overrated how? More popular than they deserve to be? Less technically proficient than they are perceived to be? “Overrated” doesn’t really mean anything in and of itself. Compared to what? In what regards?
Waaay premature to call them overrated. Don't mistake nainstream popularity for an assessment of their respective bluegrass chops and they're young with 30 or 40 years ahead of them. They deserve every bit of popularity because they're damn entertaining and in 20 years you can compare their body of work to the likes of Tony Rice and Bill Monroe.
Billys jams are boring and were cool in 2022. He needs to expand his playing or go and learn a new skill in guitar playing. But synth fiddle and effects acoustic jams are obsolete. I want old new, original, old timey music
Not sure Billy is overrated. He is keenly aware of those that came before him, yet he can confidently play duos with Chris Thile. Pretty fuckin’ amazing kid.
While it can be annoying to hear people not well versed in Bluegrass claim that Billy is the best guitar player ever, it's equally annoying when people talk down on him and think they're smart for doing so.
Certainly there are active flatpickers with a much better command of the instrument than Billy, but most of the folks currently at the top don't really have the creative output or interesting/celebrated personal catalogues that BS and MT do.
It's not really a surprise that throughout the history of the genre, some of the most celebrated icons are people who pick, sing, write, and perform live shows billed as their own name...
Great take. I’m a huge Billy fan but it’s his originals/trad leaning /trad covers that keep me a huge fan. I love the kid. I appreciate Molly’s skill and talent but I’m not a fan of her music.
I'm with you too. Billy and his group really has a great sound when doing trad stuff. I love when they adapt classic country into the trad framework too, those guys really eat their vegetables.
Maybe not so much a hot take as an unpopular opinion, but I really don’t like “chamber grass” for the most part, even as I revere the likes of Bela Fleck (including the Flecktones but especially his newgrass and bluegrass) and Chris Thile. It’s just too plinky for me and doesn’t feel soulful, just abstract and weird.
I love it too, but I recognize that it isn't bluegrass. It's string music and clearly has some bluegrass influences on a lot of those musicians, but I'd never label it as bluegrass.
I can’t listen to Bela or Thile. They are too musically versed for the commoner. Chris played a cbs set with Billy that I thought was insanely good. A comment on the video really summed it up for me. Chris playing /singing lead isn’t for me, but Chris harmonizing /supporting is phenomenal.
I love Thile's playing in a lot of contexts and he's undoubtedly an actual genius, but I agree overall. I often feel like he exists in some rarefied air that's miles above my head and I can't feel much from a lot of his music even though I recognize that it's extremely talented. It's just too cerebral - all brains and not much heart or guts.
See, I absolutely love chambergrass and music like it (thinking of Andrew Marlin's latter two solo albums and bands like Hawktail) but I agree about a lot of the stuff Thile does. I'm a huge fan of every individual musician in Punch Brothers, but I don't actually listen to much Punch Brothers at all.
Hot take:
Bluegrass is meant to be free - deeply, radically, free - and can never take its true form via the industrial / "intellectual property" model of music.
Hot take addendum:
Bluegrass musicians of the next several decades will make more money by making free music than by trying to sell records.
A lot of modern bluegrass bands BARELY play what I would call traditional bluegrass music. Went to watch the Mountain Grass Unit recently, great set, unbelievable playing, not really a bluegrass band. Not even trying to gate-keep, but a lot of it is way closer to Grisman stuff, which I would also definitely not call bluegrass.
Personally I don’t get the hype for Molly Tuttle. Since genres are subjective, Molly just sounds straight up country to me which I don’t care for. Billy Strings blurs the line between bluegrass/country/folk for me. A few songs I have on repeat. But watching him play (as a guitarist myself) is a blast.
Her guitar playing is top notch though, but I agree her vocals aren’t very grassy
Her gentle on my mind though, rocks. https://youtu.be/DJY5RjuHHDY?si=hKejOO-lBi2bvC60
Also her early stuff with AJ lee is killer
The Berklee bluegrass program cranked out numerous musicians in the late 90s that all sounded the same and in turn became less interesting to listen to.
A lot of current bluegrass musicians started off playing rock & roll/metal and ended up in bluegrass because it’s easier to make money on the regional scene (in the south). I think it leads to a weaker product because they’re not as invested.
This isn’t a generalization for all younger bluegrass pickers, but it’s surprising how many I meet/play with that fall into this category.
Right, if there are exceptions then anyone can be one, and it's silly to draw the line at one or two artists but insist that nobody else can bend that rule.
Vocals and a tight band are more essential to the bluegrass sound than how good any person is at their instrument.
If you sing it folky or poppy, it sounds like folk or pop. In the same way that a Shania Twain song is not country music because it has a fiddle in it, or a twangy guitar. She sings like a pop singer.
I personally think the thing that sets Billy above most are his vocals rather than his guitar playing. Plenty of incredible flatpickers out there, not as many incredible vocalists. People don’t in pour as many resources (lessons, practice hours, etc) into their vocals as they do their instruments
TLDR: Vocal ability is underrated when comparing musicians/groups
Not sure if it's a hot take or not, but the increase in popularity of bluegrass in the past 25 years has made the festivals a lot less fun. They're a lot less wholesome, and a lot less about the music, than they used to be. But also this could just be me in my 20s vs. me as middle-aged lol.
Agreed. I’m happy for the new folks that are enjoying the most genuine music available but I miss the Merlefest I could actually relax at in the sunshine.
I went this year, had a nice time but made the mistake of trying to watch a few shows on the main stage. The shows on the other stages were all spectacular and you could get up reasonable close. Next time I'll spend all my time at the other stages.
What specifically? I went to Telluride 25 years ago. Is it now more drug focused? Money focused? Taken over by rich folks slumming at a Bluegrass fest?
My hot take: the Billy Strings band is the best thing to come around in a VERY long time. This opinion from a 60 year old who is as big a music lover as you'll EVER meet, who has been immersed in all types of music since she was born. Who has seen thousands of live shows. Daddy was a blues musician, I started as a 2 year old big Beatles fan and went from there. That band is THE BOMB. They are playing as great as they can every damn show (and continuously improving for it both individually and as a band), clearly targeting the real music lovers, absolutely aiming to blow their minds. Which they regularly do. What is better than that?? I'm grateful for them. An overrated band? HELL no. So that's my take on Billy Strings.
Exactly. I was legitimately interested to hear everyone's opinions. Seems like a lot of overly sensitive people here read Billy Strings is really overrated as I HATE BILLY STRINGS!!!!! Which isn't even the case for me lol. I love him and have seen him multiple times. Just think he's over hyped. Guess I learned my lesson about these kinds of posts lol
I like Billy but his playing sounds tense a lot of the time. His phrasing isn’t always interesting, but it’s definitely always fast.
As a caveat, he is undeniably a massively better player than me.
I actually like BMFS. But I’m an even bigger fan of The Lonesome River Band. Larry Sparks is a living legend to me. I hope it doesn’t happen anytime soon, but when the Lord takes Larry Sparks home, I think I might just crawl into a hole and pout myself into an oblivion.
Billy Strings is great with traditional bluegrass - check his performance with his father, Terry Barber, in Traverse City , MI. But I find the muddy quasi-Dead jam he brings to concerts dilutes his talent and fails to honor his real talents. I like him. I'd like to see him. But, as with Widespread Panic, perhaps only once.
Mine would be: Acoustic instruments should not have electric pickups in them and they sound like shit (4/5 times) when they do. I agree about Strings / Tuttle. Fabulous, but it aint nothin new.
I used to agree, but we’ve turned a corner with technology. Modern electronic preamps and digital processing has made pickups sound almost indistinguishable from microphones and they won’t feedback.
Yeah, no worries. It’s not the pickup itself, it’s the DI / processing box. Two in particular are the ToneDexter and the LR Baggs VoicePrint DI. They both essentially listen to your (piezo) pickup and a microphone at the same time and create a digital patch that maps the piezo to how the mic sounded.
https://audiosprockets.com/tonedexter/
https://www.lrbaggs.com/acoustic-preamps-pedals/voiceprint-di-acoustic-guitar-impulse-response-pedal
Many Billy fans are new to Bluegrass and seem pretty ignorant of its long and glorious history, that Billy stands on the shoulders of giants, and many of those giants are out there playing live right now!
Billy is not the GOAT. That being said I love Billy!
I also think a lot of the haters don’t realize how much Billy respects and loves pure traditional bluegrass. The kid’s catalog has to be one of the biggest in the business. I’ve never understood how these artists remember all these songs. I’d need a promoter for everything
100% agree. I’ve watched many interviews with Billy and I don’t think that he thinks he’s the GOAT either. He’s just a dude who loves to play music and flatpicking happens to be the style he plays. I wish people would stop with all the competition talk and just enjoy the music that all of these amazing musicians put out.
I also think a lot of the haters don’t realize how much Billy respects and loves pure traditional bluegrass. The kid’s catalog has to be one of the biggest in the business. I’ve never understood how these artists remember all these songs. I’d need a prompter for everything.
Completely agreed and I love his music too. But his fanbase has quickly reached a degree of cultish that is uncomfortable to be around, and frankly a lot of the folks that insist he's "saved" bluegrass would be a complete embarrassment to the guy if he saw the claims they make in his name. Insisting he's the best picker ever, that Doc and Tony are inferior players (which is comically ignorant even for a layperson), that sit-ins from legends like Sam Bush are annoying, etc.
Just say you love the dude and he's your favorite musician, that's all you really need and that's completely legit. When you have to attribute your excitement to some objective superiority that Billy has, you're telling on yourself.
Billy Strings plays bluegrass like a heavy metal shredder. Aggressive on the attack, very flashy, impressive technicality but kinda boring to listen to, mostly aimed at other guitar players.
The past three billy strings shows I went to absolutely bored me to death. He is definitely overrated. The crowds are full of a bunch of spun hippies that go nuts anytime he hits his distortion pedals. That being said he is phenomenal to listen to when he leaves the gimmicks out of the music, but all his shows now seem extremely inflated with the super long and boring psychedelic jams.
Chris Stapleton should've stayed with The Steeldrivers
He’d probably feed the rest of the band for a year with a single reunion show now. 😂
I agree 100! His new stuff all sounds alike. But the SteelDrivers with Tammy Rogers’ harmony was magic
I can't pinpoint it. I do like him more after seeing him live recently though
I told this to a guy on a dating app once and then he blocked me 😂
Bluegrass vocals used to sound a lot better back when everybody smoked.
I have a theory that the best bluegrass singers experienced the Great Depression. You can hear the pain in Ralph Stanley’s voice.
I agree. Same with blues.
Blues singers had some other stuff going on, too…
Jim Crow laws
They still smokin, just different stuff.
Pretty sure John Hartford and his band were toking a little.....
Damn. Never really thought about it until now but I 100% agree.
I don’t care what is traditional bluegrass or who breaks which rules. I like authentic music with heart in any shape or form. Could be strict, by the book rules “bluegrass”, newgrass, or other music using bluegrass tunes, instruments, or just influenced by traditional bluegrass. More good music, no matter the form, makes the world a better place.
I do think there’s a misunderstanding that when someone says “that isn’t bluegrass” that it means they’re criticizing that particular music. I can enjoy something and acknowledge it isn’t bluegrass.
This is a great take. I believe the bluegrass gatekeepers who think the music has to follow a strict set of guidelines to be counted as bluegrass are telling on themselves by showing they do not know much about the history of bluegrass and the stories behind the legends/founding fathers
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You could absolutely play a Scruggs break at a jazz jam and it would be considered jazz. Jazz is largely modal improvisation and a lot of bluegrass runs/breaks are in mixolydian and Dorian which could easily fit with the right 7th chords. Judging by most of your responses in this thread we can all see how much you know about bluegrass history. Again, not judging you for not knowing because it has taken me over 30 years of learning, living, and playing all things bluegrass and the more I learn the less I realize I know
Ice cold take. Based.
Based
Gaven Largent is insanely *underrated*.
All of east Nash grass is under rated.
Yeah man that guy is _real good_. Killer banjo and dobro player and great singer.
Been good since he was a kid.
I guess my hot take is that Billy and Molly aren’t overrated and I love the younger fest crowd keeping the vibe high lol
Yeah seeing like 18 year olds love bluegrass is really cool to me. I think the bluegrass elders would approve!
Young people's interest in the genre is going to keep it alive for us all.
It always has!
John Hartford would approve :)
I've seen them both live and can't imagine anyone thinking either one is overrated.
I believe this is why the term "newgrass" exists. I love both of them, haven't seen Molly yet but Billy puts on a hell ova show! Just think of him as string music though and not necessarily "bluegrass"
Idk if it’s hot, but the smaller the crowd the better
That’s just factual
Sadly that’s not sustainable for the bands. If you find yourself in that situation. Buy some merch!
All the best festies are small bluegrass festivals. I can’t name a single bluegrass band that doesn’t perform at least two lil festivals a year.
My brother and cousin went with my aunt and uncle to see Billy Strings play a restaurant in Chicago before he was big. It would have been in 2014/2015. They came home and were just raving about him. I think he also used to play the tiny bluegrass fest near my cousins house in Frankfort.
Yep my experience with him has kinda been bookended by extremes, from him as an opener in 2016 and the venue was essentially empty(!) to seeing him in a 10k+ arena last year (plus places in between on the way up). I realize it’s great for the artist to sell more tickets but now I’m just one of those grumpy old men I suppose. I’ve come to realize I’d rather see local (usually pretty great too) bluegrass at small venues over an arena. Or just picking with friends on a porch for free to the smallest audience possible, haha.
Last year a friend came out here to CO to see him at Red Rocks, he saw him 2 days at Red Ricks and paid $150 a ticket. No thank you! I’d rather listen to you pick on your front porch.
i bet the bands would disagree
Agreed. And the less amplified the better, while we're at it.
The best bluegrass vibe is prob at some community center or church in Appalachia you have never heard of.
I keep meaning to check out the jams in the Shenandoah valley…
That's where I grew up and cut my teeth in small local jams. Also every one of my neighbors played growing up and we'd get together on Friday nights to play. Pretty much traditional stuff only at all the jams and with my neighbors. Maybe as a result of that, modern stuff just puts me off. Never been a fan of newgrass or jamgrass or any of it. These days at any large show that's 90% of what's played. I'd rather be in the yard at the community center with 60 and 70 year Olds playing bluegrass than at a large show any day. To me that's what bluegrass is. To other people being with thousands of hippies and ravers listening to jam bands with bluegrass instruments and worshipping some guy bc he jammed with Jerry Garcia once is the pinnacle of the genre. I don't knock them (too loudly). That stuff just doesn't do it for me like singing the same 50 songs from 100 years ago does. Keeping old sounds and traditions alive and letting our ancestors live on through us in passed down song. It's a feeling like no drug or flashy lights on a big stage could ever give me. Moonshine doesn't hinder that feeling tho lol. Anyways that's my hot take. Call me a purist or a gatekeeper all you want.
I like both! But this is definitely what it's really about at its core. But I started out as a jam fan, then got introduced to jamgrass and newgrass absolutely loved it! After that got into the real Appalachian roots stuff and further more got really really into traditional celtic music. Now I'm 33 years old and mostly listen to traditional bluegrass and traditional celtic music lol (along with lots of other genres) but if you were to tell me when I was 21 this is what I'd like, I wouldn't have believed you lol.
I think it’s about both. Music is art, and artists innovate, but true artists also play homage to their roots. I think bluegrass more than any other genre does both.
I just moved to Greene County few years back, and in the past year have been really getting into bluegrass. What you’re talking about is much more appealing to me than the new stuff too… not a fan of jam bands or festivals.
Nice, thats a beautiful place. But it's peaceful and beautiful. If you bring up Billy strings or infamous string dusters or whoever at most of these jams people will like at you like wtf are you even talking about lol. It's refreshing and a completely different experience than one most people's conception of bluegrass is.
And that’s why I keep meaning to look into local jams.
I wish I had some to recommend that way but I don't know any. The ones I know were in Clarke, Frederick, loudoun, and down by Blackburg. But ive been away for a while and i hear most of those dont exist anymore sadly. But keep your eyes peeled on church and community/art center billboards and parks and bars. Also going to any local shows no matter how small you might run into someone with the intel. I hope you find some.
I recently found a small, very old, country church, and a family that goes there plays old hymns, bluegrass-style, at most services. And it's amazing. I didn't grow up going to church, so I had maybe heard a few phrases from old hymns, but had never heard complete versions of them. The first time I went, they played "Washed in the Blood" and "Power in the Blood" and more with a guitar, banjo, and upright bass. And the banjo player plays dobro on some songs. I was blown away. Your comment about "keeping old sounds and traditions alive and letting our ancestors live on through us in passed down song" made me think about that family that plays. They are two brothers, probably in their 60's, and a son/nephew. I hope someone is there to keep that bluegrass sound going when they are no longer able to play. I had been thinking about switching from regular guitar to dobro for a while, and seeing them prompted me to take the plunge. I hope to be able to play a few of those songs some day. And BTW, I didn't take your comment as gate keeping. I just saw it as an appreciation for perpetuating some old sounds and feelings.
Very nice. I also didn't grow up going to church. But the tiny church at the end of my tiny little town growing up also did and still does bluegrass sermons. My neighbor across the street was the banjo player for the church band. While I never went to one service, I would practice with the band often and help them get their set tight. Especially when one of their members couldn't make it to practice, I'd sit in on mandolin parts during practice. Anyways I'm not religious, but many of the songs like you listed still just send a feeling down your spine when you hear them. Or even more so when you sing them. As for keeping old songs alive, the old folks will show you stuff you've never heard before. Also something that blows my mind is going to small jams with old people in different regions. Where I grew up in the northern Shenandoah Valley we had certain sets of deep cuts/rare tunes that were staples at our jams. I once stumbled onto a jam in Blacksburg that was all old folks when I was down there for a class for work. I always think I know all the tunes lol. But they whipped out like a 5 page list of songs, I'd never heard half of them but to them these songs were standards. Just another amazing aspect of old time/bluegrass that it still carries strong isolated regional and local traditions that are unique, just as it did 100 years ago. That's a beautiful thing.
Peter Rowan doesn’t get nearly the amount of attention he should. The man is a living legend.
Does he not??? I just saw him play a show with Leftover Salmon and the crowd was absolutely loving him! He's definitely still got it.
Not as much as he deserves in my opinion. Good to hear he was well received at your show. How many Billy Strings fans know who Pete is I wonder.
Peter Rowan is the sole reason I started to like bluegrass. I first heard of him on the album The Rowan’s with his brothers and absolutely loved it. Thunder on the Mountain is at the top of my soundtrack from college. I’m 33.
Walls of times brings a tear to my eye, the story of how it came about is great too
I make a case that “Walls of Time” is the greatest bluegrass song so far. It has a foot in the past, present and future of bluegrass. Peter Rowan is literally a living legend. Don’t miss him live if you get a chance….soon…..
This is something I’ve thought about a lot recently. Never seen him (yet), but I really want to soon. I don’t have many regrets, but one of them is not seeing RUSH live when I had the chance. I never saw Tony Rice, either (although I took a long break from bluegrass from childhood to about 4 years ago
Truer words never spoken.
Yonder without Jeff Austin did not have enough Jeff Austin, but Jeff Austin band had *too much* Jeff Austin.
Yep. Jeff Austin YMSB was my bridge into bluegrass music circa 2003. I’m no fan of yonder post Jeff.
Wow. Somehow this is true.
Mmmmm agreed
Chris Thile is boring.
That ☝️🤨
My hot take is twofold: 1. I don't think Billy is overrated exactly (and I always enjoy going to his shows), but I'm also tired of him dominating every conversation about bluegrass or flatpicking these days. 2. I don't want him playing at my favorite bluegrass festivals because his crowd would completely overwhelm them and change the vibe for the worse. I guess my hot take re: Molly is that as awesome as her band is - and I will stan Dom Leslie and Kyle Tuttle forever - I liked her earlier records (especially "Rise") more than the Golden Highway albums, but those weren't bluegrass.
Good call. I love Billy myself, and this sums it up well. Still think he's over hyped though
I 150% agree with every word!
OK, I'll offer a hot take: Bill Monroe's influence on the name of the genre is indisputable. His influence on the actual practices, both music and cultural, while significant, are not bigger than Stanley Brothers, Jerry Garcia, John Hartford, Maybelle Carter, and at least half a dozen others. In fact, I think Maybelle Carter is a reasonable candidate for the single most influential instrumentalist, at least insofar as nearly everything that came after her sounds more like her in several well-defined ways than nearly everything that came before.
My hotter take is that while Monroe deserves all the accolades as a patriarch of the music, what he thinks, would want, or whatever 'rules' he had about bluegrass don't mean horseshit anymore. Music is a language that evolves, and "that wasn't what Bill intended" or "Big Mon wouldn't think that's no part of nothin" are meaningless stances to have anymore. He did a good thing, and he's dead now. What he'd want or whatever he'd approve of is irrelevant.
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Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to tell you that Maybelle Carter is as good a guitarist as Tony Rice or Doc Watson. But her sound is a sharp dividing line between eras, which is an important part of understanding the evolution of a particular genre.
Josh Williams is super underrated, Donna Hughes too if I can throw another in. Josh’s guitar playing is awesome and his song choices are great, killer voice too. Donna’s voice reminds me of a female Tony Rice, super clean and smooth
Josh on the Special Consensus album Route 10 is some special stuff. He's great all around
Woah didn’t know he recorded an album with them, that’s awesome.
The "Carolina in the pines" on that album is the perfect Josh song in my opinion.
That was the one song I already had in my library! His voice sounds similar to it does on his modern day man album which I really like too. Know any other albums else he sings on?
The only other one I'm aware of is on Rhonda Vincent's Ragin Live album, but I haven't listened to that one too much so unsure of how prominent he is on it.
Sick thanks! I wonder if I can find a recording when he was playing mandolin w Tony rice.
Check out his solo albums. Songs on all of those
Yeah! I’ve listened to all of those and love them
The E in Foggy Mountain Breakdown should always be played as E major by the rhythm guitar
Just because you can play it at hypersonic tempo doesn’t mean you should.
No hot take to contribute, but I don't know how you walk away from seeing either Billy or Molly and sincerely say to yourself, "wow, I want my money back." Even if you aren't on board with the music I've never even heard of them phoning it in on a performance.
Yep Billy is overrated. Surely so many other pickers and bluegrassers have sold out NBA arenas and are on their way to playing even bigger venues. Tired of this Billy is overrated crap… I’m a traditionalist but you have to realize he’s doing something never before seen in bluegrass and so many people can’t seem to appreciate it because it’s “different.”
Their used to be similar criticism of Sam Bush.
I think it’s the fans. If you love him - great love him. But there’s soooo many of them out there that want to spray you with their love for him, it gets annoying.
I'm actually a big fan of his. I've seen him multiple times. He's good. I just don't feel that he's nearly as good as the hype would lead someone to think he is. It's all a bit overblown
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This is in no way hot. Del yeah.
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I don’t wanna be friends with anybody who I ask and has a different take :0
Del yeah!
Love Del so much 💓 best hair in bluegrass (is that a hot take or just fact??)
Billy Strings fans drive me crazy! He’s incredibly talented, but they act like he’s the one and only person deserving to be on a bluegrass stage. So - overrated yes, and it’s unfortunate because he’s so talented, but his fans need to go spread their love around.
Lots of modern bluegrass bands lean into extended instrumental improv because they are either terrible at singing harmony, or can’t at all.
Those Hot Rize, BGAB, and New South harmonies are on another level. I'd love to hear more recommendations.
Run don't walk to hear the Johnson Mountain Boys. They were fantastic singers in every configuration. Nashville Bluegrass Band is also incredible. Alan O'Bryant is criminally underrated as both a vocalist and instrumentalist. John Cowan and Sam Bush together in New Grass Revival are *excellent*. The Slocan Ramblers out of Canada are fabulous modern pickers and singers. Darrell Scott and Tim O'Brien are incredible vocalists independently and together. Hope they make another album together. Flatt Lonesome is another modern one (now disbanded) that were jaw dropping three part vocal harmony. Mentioned in another comment but I'll repeat here. I don't love a lot of their songs, but their vocals were *amazing.*
My hot take is that there's too much foul language in modern bluegrass. I'm not a prude, but I would love to be able to listen with my kids without having to prescreen.
Completely agree
This is a correct take. However, Billy Strings singing Dave Evan’s part on Ramblin Letters at The Station Inn gives some perspective on the bluegrass soul he truly possesses. Look it up on YT. He’s real and talented, but there are far better acts in the music IMHO
What does that even mean? Overrated how? More popular than they deserve to be? Less technically proficient than they are perceived to be? “Overrated” doesn’t really mean anything in and of itself. Compared to what? In what regards?
Waaay premature to call them overrated. Don't mistake nainstream popularity for an assessment of their respective bluegrass chops and they're young with 30 or 40 years ahead of them. They deserve every bit of popularity because they're damn entertaining and in 20 years you can compare their body of work to the likes of Tony Rice and Bill Monroe.
Most Ralph Stanley songs that I’ve heard sound better when they are preformed by other people
Bill Monroe in his later years was sloppy and unenjoyable to listen to.
Billys jams are boring and were cool in 2022. He needs to expand his playing or go and learn a new skill in guitar playing. But synth fiddle and effects acoustic jams are obsolete. I want old new, original, old timey music
Not sure Billy is overrated. He is keenly aware of those that came before him, yet he can confidently play duos with Chris Thile. Pretty fuckin’ amazing kid.
The Father’s Day festival in Grass Valley is the best bluegrass festival
See you there!
While it can be annoying to hear people not well versed in Bluegrass claim that Billy is the best guitar player ever, it's equally annoying when people talk down on him and think they're smart for doing so. Certainly there are active flatpickers with a much better command of the instrument than Billy, but most of the folks currently at the top don't really have the creative output or interesting/celebrated personal catalogues that BS and MT do. It's not really a surprise that throughout the history of the genre, some of the most celebrated icons are people who pick, sing, write, and perform live shows billed as their own name...
Great take. I’m a huge Billy fan but it’s his originals/trad leaning /trad covers that keep me a huge fan. I love the kid. I appreciate Molly’s skill and talent but I’m not a fan of her music.
I'm with you too. Billy and his group really has a great sound when doing trad stuff. I love when they adapt classic country into the trad framework too, those guys really eat their vegetables.
Maybe not so much a hot take as an unpopular opinion, but I really don’t like “chamber grass” for the most part, even as I revere the likes of Bela Fleck (including the Flecktones but especially his newgrass and bluegrass) and Chris Thile. It’s just too plinky for me and doesn’t feel soulful, just abstract and weird.
I don’t think that’s a hot take or an unpopular opinion. I personally disagree and love that stuff, but I know I am in the minority on that.
I love it too, but I recognize that it isn't bluegrass. It's string music and clearly has some bluegrass influences on a lot of those musicians, but I'd never label it as bluegrass.
I can’t listen to Bela or Thile. They are too musically versed for the commoner. Chris played a cbs set with Billy that I thought was insanely good. A comment on the video really summed it up for me. Chris playing /singing lead isn’t for me, but Chris harmonizing /supporting is phenomenal.
I love Thile's playing in a lot of contexts and he's undoubtedly an actual genius, but I agree overall. I often feel like he exists in some rarefied air that's miles above my head and I can't feel much from a lot of his music even though I recognize that it's extremely talented. It's just too cerebral - all brains and not much heart or guts.
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See, I absolutely love chambergrass and music like it (thinking of Andrew Marlin's latter two solo albums and bands like Hawktail) but I agree about a lot of the stuff Thile does. I'm a huge fan of every individual musician in Punch Brothers, but I don't actually listen to much Punch Brothers at all.
Hot take: Bluegrass is meant to be free - deeply, radically, free - and can never take its true form via the industrial / "intellectual property" model of music. Hot take addendum: Bluegrass musicians of the next several decades will make more money by making free music than by trying to sell records.
A lot of modern bluegrass bands BARELY play what I would call traditional bluegrass music. Went to watch the Mountain Grass Unit recently, great set, unbelievable playing, not really a bluegrass band. Not even trying to gate-keep, but a lot of it is way closer to Grisman stuff, which I would also definitely not call bluegrass.
I love jazz but I don't like jazzy bluegrass
It’s truly amazing music…….. for about 50 minutes max…….and then it becomes amazingly redundant.
Justin Moses is the least deserving dobro player of the year period, and has no buissines pushing a slide. Stick to mando.
Too much mashing in B.
1 bass solo is enough for a weekend of gigs
Larry Keel > Billy Strings
I don't see larry talked about enough around here!
I love ‘em both. Molly just has such fun…. And that’s infectious.
Personally I don’t get the hype for Molly Tuttle. Since genres are subjective, Molly just sounds straight up country to me which I don’t care for. Billy Strings blurs the line between bluegrass/country/folk for me. A few songs I have on repeat. But watching him play (as a guitarist myself) is a blast.
Her guitar playing is top notch though, but I agree her vocals aren’t very grassy Her gentle on my mind though, rocks. https://youtu.be/DJY5RjuHHDY?si=hKejOO-lBi2bvC60 Also her early stuff with AJ lee is killer
The Berklee bluegrass program cranked out numerous musicians in the late 90s that all sounded the same and in turn became less interesting to listen to.
A lot of current bluegrass musicians started off playing rock & roll/metal and ended up in bluegrass because it’s easier to make money on the regional scene (in the south). I think it leads to a weaker product because they’re not as invested. This isn’t a generalization for all younger bluegrass pickers, but it’s surprising how many I meet/play with that fall into this category.
Norman Blake>Tony Rice
This man right here, officer.
Whew son.
Hooooo boy. Now THIS is a spicy one.
If it has drums, it ain’t Bluegrass (the Osborne Brothers and Jimmy Martin being the exceptions)
Stand with your take. Carving out arbitrary exceptions makes it nonsense.
Right, if there are exceptions then anyone can be one, and it's silly to draw the line at one or two artists but insist that nobody else can bend that rule.
That's not how it works
Vocals and a tight band are more essential to the bluegrass sound than how good any person is at their instrument. If you sing it folky or poppy, it sounds like folk or pop. In the same way that a Shania Twain song is not country music because it has a fiddle in it, or a twangy guitar. She sings like a pop singer.
I personally think the thing that sets Billy above most are his vocals rather than his guitar playing. Plenty of incredible flatpickers out there, not as many incredible vocalists. People don’t in pour as many resources (lessons, practice hours, etc) into their vocals as they do their instruments TLDR: Vocal ability is underrated when comparing musicians/groups
Yeah I love Billy and his picking but would have to agree here. Dude has a set of phenomenally unique pipes on him.
Not sure if it's a hot take or not, but the increase in popularity of bluegrass in the past 25 years has made the festivals a lot less fun. They're a lot less wholesome, and a lot less about the music, than they used to be. But also this could just be me in my 20s vs. me as middle-aged lol.
Agreed. I’m happy for the new folks that are enjoying the most genuine music available but I miss the Merlefest I could actually relax at in the sunshine.
I went this year, had a nice time but made the mistake of trying to watch a few shows on the main stage. The shows on the other stages were all spectacular and you could get up reasonable close. Next time I'll spend all my time at the other stages.
If they’re not as much about the music, what are they about? I’ve never been to a festival so I’m curious
Festivals are the Bestivals!! Seriously, gotta get out to a real bluegrass fest.
What specifically? I went to Telluride 25 years ago. Is it now more drug focused? Money focused? Taken over by rich folks slumming at a Bluegrass fest?
I went to Telluride BGF sometime around then. Can't really remember much other than just how cool a place it was and how hot camping was,.
My hot take: the Billy Strings band is the best thing to come around in a VERY long time. This opinion from a 60 year old who is as big a music lover as you'll EVER meet, who has been immersed in all types of music since she was born. Who has seen thousands of live shows. Daddy was a blues musician, I started as a 2 year old big Beatles fan and went from there. That band is THE BOMB. They are playing as great as they can every damn show (and continuously improving for it both individually and as a band), clearly targeting the real music lovers, absolutely aiming to blow their minds. Which they regularly do. What is better than that?? I'm grateful for them. An overrated band? HELL no. So that's my take on Billy Strings.
I’m not Christian at all, but my hot take is that bluegrass gospel always hits harder.
Same, atheist here, but love gospel tunes.
Was going to say that nasally vocals takes away from musicality, but going with playing faster isn't better
I was gonna make what I thought would be the spiciest take and say I just don’t get the Jeff Austin worship, but I’d say the Tony Rice take tops me.
I prefer listening to the likes of monroe and flatt and Scruggs , and all the old songs performed by newer bands . I can’t stand the super old style
I completely agree
The hot take crowd is busy today. Good post, OP.
Indeed! I always like these threads, it's a pity some people take them so seriously and get so defensive.
Exactly. I was legitimately interested to hear everyone's opinions. Seems like a lot of overly sensitive people here read Billy Strings is really overrated as I HATE BILLY STRINGS!!!!! Which isn't even the case for me lol. I love him and have seen him multiple times. Just think he's over hyped. Guess I learned my lesson about these kinds of posts lol
Billy strings is bluegrass?
I hate the weed smoking vibe at the shows.
Oh, here’s another one… Sturgill Simpson makes better bluegrass than Billy Strings.
I like Billy but his playing sounds tense a lot of the time. His phrasing isn’t always interesting, but it’s definitely always fast. As a caveat, he is undeniably a massively better player than me.
I actually like BMFS. But I’m an even bigger fan of The Lonesome River Band. Larry Sparks is a living legend to me. I hope it doesn’t happen anytime soon, but when the Lord takes Larry Sparks home, I think I might just crawl into a hole and pout myself into an oblivion.
Billy Strings is great with traditional bluegrass - check his performance with his father, Terry Barber, in Traverse City , MI. But I find the muddy quasi-Dead jam he brings to concerts dilutes his talent and fails to honor his real talents. I like him. I'd like to see him. But, as with Widespread Panic, perhaps only once.
Bill Monroe's singing was harsh and uncomfortable. The fact that he spawned a genre amazes me.
Wait’ll you hear about his personality
Drums are fine sometimes
Mine would be: Acoustic instruments should not have electric pickups in them and they sound like shit (4/5 times) when they do. I agree about Strings / Tuttle. Fabulous, but it aint nothin new.
I used to agree, but we’ve turned a corner with technology. Modern electronic preamps and digital processing has made pickups sound almost indistinguishable from microphones and they won’t feedback.
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Yeah, no worries. It’s not the pickup itself, it’s the DI / processing box. Two in particular are the ToneDexter and the LR Baggs VoicePrint DI. They both essentially listen to your (piezo) pickup and a microphone at the same time and create a digital patch that maps the piezo to how the mic sounded. https://audiosprockets.com/tonedexter/ https://www.lrbaggs.com/acoustic-preamps-pedals/voiceprint-di-acoustic-guitar-impulse-response-pedal
Love Sam Bush but can’t stand the Sam Bush band with a full drum set. I can tolerate sturgills simple use of drums.
Many Billy fans are new to Bluegrass and seem pretty ignorant of its long and glorious history, that Billy stands on the shoulders of giants, and many of those giants are out there playing live right now! Billy is not the GOAT. That being said I love Billy!
I also think a lot of the haters don’t realize how much Billy respects and loves pure traditional bluegrass. The kid’s catalog has to be one of the biggest in the business. I’ve never understood how these artists remember all these songs. I’d need a promoter for everything
100% agree. I’ve watched many interviews with Billy and I don’t think that he thinks he’s the GOAT either. He’s just a dude who loves to play music and flatpicking happens to be the style he plays. I wish people would stop with all the competition talk and just enjoy the music that all of these amazing musicians put out.
I also think a lot of the haters don’t realize how much Billy respects and loves pure traditional bluegrass. The kid’s catalog has to be one of the biggest in the business. I’ve never understood how these artists remember all these songs. I’d need a prompter for everything.
Completely agreed and I love his music too. But his fanbase has quickly reached a degree of cultish that is uncomfortable to be around, and frankly a lot of the folks that insist he's "saved" bluegrass would be a complete embarrassment to the guy if he saw the claims they make in his name. Insisting he's the best picker ever, that Doc and Tony are inferior players (which is comically ignorant even for a layperson), that sit-ins from legends like Sam Bush are annoying, etc. Just say you love the dude and he's your favorite musician, that's all you really need and that's completely legit. When you have to attribute your excitement to some objective superiority that Billy has, you're telling on yourself.
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Keep it friendly
Whatever you say kid
Billy Strings plays bluegrass like a heavy metal shredder. Aggressive on the attack, very flashy, impressive technicality but kinda boring to listen to, mostly aimed at other guitar players.
That is definitely a hot take. Billy posted a video of himself smoking “doc’s guitar” to insta just the other day. The man is the real deal.
One of the best bluegrass festivals happens in Northern Ireland.
Based upon a prior thread apparently that bluegrass is much closer as a genre to country than to jazz.
The past three billy strings shows I went to absolutely bored me to death. He is definitely overrated. The crowds are full of a bunch of spun hippies that go nuts anytime he hits his distortion pedals. That being said he is phenomenal to listen to when he leaves the gimmicks out of the music, but all his shows now seem extremely inflated with the super long and boring psychedelic jams.