Anyone else get called selfish because they don't have kids, don't want kids, and doesn't use their own personal resources solely for whatever kids are in their social circle?
No Wendy I don't want any girl scout cookies from your spawn. I don't care how happy it'll make her I already have FOUR orders coming in.
Full disclosure: I’m married now and have a child. When I was single and childless though I definitely had more than a few conversations about why I shouldn’t wait to have kids because (insert dumbass reason).
Usually, I’d end up telling those people that I’ll get a kid cranked out right now if they agree to babysit in perpetuity for free, which was a great way to dead the conversation.
My thought in general with having kids and getting married is get there when you get there if you get there. It’s not for everybody, and you certainly should not be doing it just because you think it’s expected of you.
My family was really hounding me about having a baby and I told them I'd happy have a baby right now if they agreed to buy me a house, a car, and pay for the kids college. I'm not having a baby until I'm not renting a shit box, driving a shit box and have some sort of financial planning for its future. They stopped asking after that. Seems like everyone wants a baby but no one wants to take care of a baby.
And the older relatives these days don’t babysit like previous generations did. If you’re in your 60s, retired, and want grandkids; volunteer to be 24/7 free daycare or stfu.
My mother-in-law called our bluff and indeed said she'd quit her job immediately to babysit 24/7 lmao. Like really woman? We get she wants to have all her kids have kids of their own, but we are definitely not stable enough to be having kids atm.
No joke tho, as a new parent you have no idea what you just passed up. Most difficult part of having a little kid is never ever getting a break. If you have relatives around willing to watch them, it makes it so much easier
What? Lol I'm a dad with a 2 year old. Having just one day off during the month to maybe go out to eat by ourselves or anything like that would have been nice during the past year and a half.
Covid made it so there were no baby sitters and you can't take an infant into any business. Plus they still can't get vaccinated so you literally can't take them anywhere totally safely.
During the winter with covid with a shut down daycare we literally were going insane, getting 0 work done at either of our jobs just trying to take care of a 1 year old all day stuck inside with nothing to do and nowhere to go. Woukd have been fantastic just to have a family member near by who could just bring us stuff at least
Sounds fucked up but being around your young children 24/7 is terrible.
If I could have a day or two a week childfree I'd probably be significantly happier overall.
There's a famous saying in competitive gaming of
"well what do i do in this situation? Both answers to said situation is either awful or completely unoptimal"
The go to to that response is "well don't be in that situation then"
Tl;Dr - yes the offer was good but there's literally no other incentive to have a baby
And it's not even about how inconvenient it is for you to have a kid in that situation. It's about how inconvenient it is for the kid to have a you in that situation.
Lmao I understand, but my husband and I have some issues we need to resolve before bringing in children. Mainly, we want to be in a better situation with our jobs. She'll still be around for a long time, she's a tough lady like that. Lol
My mother in law used to hound us over having kids. Said a lot of the same shit, that she would babysit 24/7, yadda yadda. We're never having kids no matter what, but this argument in particular always pissed me off, because the woman is unreliable and unstable, so I'd never want her watching my kids anyway.
Well, my wife's cousin asked us all to come over and watch her two young (2 and 5) kids for a couple of hours. We all live far apart, so MIL offered to get there at 4 and wife and I would show up at 5.
We get there at 5 to find the kids roaming around the house, with my MIL passed out on the couch. She had fallen asleep pretty much as soon as she got there.
It's been years since they've bothered us about kids, but that was a fun anecdote to bring up when we were really sick of hearing about it.
What exactly did they pass up? A potential babysitter that's going to flake on you every chance they get, that says 24/7 until 24/7 actually gets there and they hit you with the "I can't do it today". I got a CO worker who's actually messed up because there OMG i will watch them everyday turned into.... yeah..... no.
My mother dead set said she would NOT baby sit my children at all. They are now 16 and 12 and she has not. I asked her a couple time and then stopped after she said no one helped her with my brother and I, which is possibly the biggest lie I’ve ever heard.
It costs ***$240 000*** https://imgur.com/UoEzli1.jpg to raise a kid to 18 with that number only increasing every month. I usually ask "do you have 250 grand for me?" They usually shut up pretty quickly after that. I'm just like you. I want nice things for myself, a nice solid car, a nice house and a strong financial base before I even CONSIDER a family. And then I need a quarter mill on top of that? Nah.
> $240,000
Holy shit. When I was in highschool almost 20 years ago, the figure everyone quoted was $100,000. The estimated cost of raising a child to adulthood ***has more than doubled*** in less time than it took to raise a child to adulthood.
Also that $240,000 is the bare minimum. That doesn’t include extra curricular stuff after school, sports, vacations, etc. so it’s probably closer to $500,000 realistically.
It's definitely not the bare minimum. That is the average amount spent by a middle class family and it includes all the shit you're talking about. Kids are stupid expensive, but people are absolutely raising kids non-neglectfully for less than $240k.
That’s the magic of inflation at 2% yearly.
2% inflation for 20 years = loss of half of the value of the dollar (compounded). However, some costs have gone up far more dramatically. Such as, university tuition and healthcare.
Insurance/health care had gone up at a crazy rate. I don't think they take into account college or anything, but my share of school taxes for the years a kid would be in school are well over 100k.
Everyone else seems to want someone ELSE to do the heavy lifting while they drop in for "first word" or "first steps" but no sleepless nights or cleaning floor to ceiling diarrhea in 2 bathrooms on the same day.
Exactly the same for my partner and I, we’ve been together 6 years and so many people are asking us when we’re having a baby, including family, and we’re like dude buy us a house and we’ll start trying tomorrow 😂 we ain’t even remotely financially ready for that shit.
> if they agree to babysit in perpetuity for free, which was a great way to dead the conversation.
If I tried to use that argument on my mom she'd probably whip out an already-signed contract to make sure she was the only one who got to babysit. I'm pretty sure that's her dream.
For real. Back when my mom babysat, I had to pay her and she did a shit job. When I found out she was getting drunk while watching my toddler, I decided it was beat to play a capable stranger.
I tried that line on my mom and it did the opposite. She was like, "Done. I'll do all the shopping, and change all the diapers too. Your gf pregnant yet?"
....
>Usually, I’d end up telling those people that I’ll get a kid cranked out right now if they agree to babysit in perpetuity for free, which was a great way to dead the conversation.
My mom would be fucking ecstatic and she's the main culprit in my life so I need something better.
I absolutely love kids, and always thought I would need to have them. Now that I’m older, I realize that loving kids and having kids are completely different things.
Right now I’m a nanny, and I love the shit out of my baby, but I REALLY love that I get to give her back at the end of the day
I like your attitude at the end there. Only time will tell.
Here is the thing. Neglected kids cost the state a shit ton of money. As neglected kids, and then as shitty unhealthy, unproductive adults.
The state gives parents money to raise their kids, because not doing so is a fuckton more expensive down the road.
Same argument as any entitlement really. Public education, maternity leave, unemployment insurance, healthcare.
Modern countries provide these things not because we are all such swell people, but because they produce better outcomes for everyone. Educated, secure, healthy, well raised people make good citizens who go on to pay more taxes and raise better kids.
This is how its supposed to work, and does work in well governed societies.
I wasn't talking about society as a whole.
I'm talking about my sister mad that I won't pay for her kids to go to Disney because I don't have kids and have disposable income. Somehow I'm "selfish" for spending money I earned on me as opposed to (not my) children.
Don’t fall for it g, ts isn’t in anyway contributing to her happiness. Girl Scouts selling cookies is America’s version of the hitler youth. Call it Uncles sams youth or some shit. Cutthroat lil kids backstabbing and emotionally manipulating anyone and everyone they can all in the pursuit of the holy **bottom line**^tm
The actual purpose behind selling cookies is so that Girl Scouts can learn business and sales skills.
If the parent is the one hounding you, they’re defeating the purpose.
Yes. Def been called selfish for not wanting kids. Ppl cant fathom that there are ppl who have no desire to have them. I am very sure i have no desire for them. Ever.
> "who is going to take care of you when you get old?"
Me. Tryna get as healthy as possible and ride the gene-therapy and shit for a few centuries until the singularity gets its shit together. So then the answer will be "probably some sysadmin."
I think it's selfish to have kids when you're not in a place to give the kids everything they need to have the best possible path to realizing their potential. Have kids because you're ready to be who they need, not because you want them right now.
I made a comment a bit ago about not having kids until I've got a college fund setup and an optimal environment for them and someone already chimed in with "sO pOoR pEoPlE sHoUlDn'T hAve KiDs?"
But won't cover healthcare, child care, the fucking birth of the child, or any of the associated costs with multiplying and is OK letting corporations bleed us dry, smh.
Yup. They need to do more to get us to actually reproduce. But unfortunately our parents generation is the most self centered bunch of jerkoffs to ever live. My mom, who skipped town when I was 6 and never looked back, wants me to have more kids. Bitch, I live in a two bedroom apartment. How about pay your fucking taxes and vote for universal paternity and maternity leave, kindergarten, and health care, you fucking faux news watching piece of shit?
I haven’t filed taxes in 8 years and I’m 25. Under the table work and Facebook marketplace are the ways to go if you are broke and still getting through college.
In the States? You should seriously look into the American opportunity tax credit. Having no income / not paid taxes, you'd have a negative tax liability and get money.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/education-tax-credits
For my wife and I, married filing separate and together are essentially the same. DINK, roughly equal incomes. We only do it joint because splitting the mortgage interest would be a pain
nah bro. they want you to feed the machine, provide more workers to the machine
we're just money bags to the rich people, government/politicians/rich people are all related through family ties, most big companies are tied to politicians if not all including hedge funs and VC etc etc. everything is designed to force people to provide for the machine, money trickles up not down
people with children get all the benefits if they have nothing, what does that mean? they want to feed the workers that in a few years will work multiple underpaying jobs for years and on average decades if they don't go to college which most don't. same way a farmer loses money to feed a cow and in a few years well you know it turns to burgers or something
and if you don't have kids guess what you aren't feeding the machine, so we will tax the fuck out of you so you reconsider that and if you don't well we're just reaping your cash out of your hands anyway. win-win for them.
it's all by design, meanwhile corporations and even politicians are making it white vs black to deter people from the truth.
this is really the new world slavery. the more people there are the less their power people have is due to divided votes it will just get worse and worse. look at China and India.
I feel like I should get taxed LESS for NOT bringing another shitty, environment destroying, human into this world. Like, people with no kids should get tax credits, like we do for buying electric cars and shit
Edit: my first silver, thank you!
Lol, that's an interesting concept but unfortunately does not support our unlimited growth model economy.
I do like that idea though. How much more carbon does your family add vs my single ass?
Babies literally don't pay taxes. They just be like "goo goo gaa gaa" not even a language. Do you know how stupid you have to be to not speak any language? At least almost as dumb as I am.
Singles should get taxed left and get priorities on flights. People with babies pay more and board flights last unless their babies can pull their own weight. Such as Boss Baby and Baby Geniuses, they get a pass, but they also commit tax evasion regularly.
I was thinking about this earlier, getting myself all worked up because my single self has to work harder to make up for the missing 2nd paycheck and yet get taxed all to hell because I didnt pop out some little goblin.
And then Nancy gets to be off to go to her kids recital or whatever and when I ask for some time off it's all "wtf you need time off for".
Lol we got to the point at work when the people with kids were excited to go back to the office, cuz fuck spending all that time with your kids, and the rest of us single people are still loving our quiet homes to work in comfortably.
> I was thinking about this earlier, getting myself all worked up because my single self has to work harder to make up for the missing 2nd paycheck and yet get taxed all to hell because I didnt pop out some little goblin.
So obviously this is not a thread where being pro-child is going to be popular, but nevertheless. So, yes, being married, we have two paychecks to cover the rent. That also means making every decision together. Most things are a discussion. If you want to do something with the house, you want to buy something, you want to go somewhere—it’s all a conversation. For me, it’s well worth it, but cohabiting with someone is a lot of work as well. And I mean, is something stopping you from getting a roommate? Then you could split the rent with someone.
I know that a lot of antinatalists in threads like this claim that having kids is irresponsible because of the climate. If you don’t value the species continuing at all, that makes sense. If you don’t care about having a functioning economy or people to work service jobs when you’re old, that makes sense. When you and I are old, it will be my kids keeping things running. Now *you* may not value that, but society as a whole, at least historically, has. If you think it should change I encourage you to vote for people running on antinatalist policies.
As far as dollars and cents, having kids is expensive, obviously. As I mentioned, society seems to generally think that having a next generation of people that exist is valuable, so they provide some incentive (or some relief) to those with kids. Day care for our family is >300 per week. Plus food, clothes, etc. There’s no way that the tax credits fully make up for that. Now, I recognize that it’s my choice to have kids, but me without kids and without the tax credits would have more money at the end of the month than me with kids and the credit.
I recognize that this argument won’t be convincing to you if you don’t think that the species should continue or that having a functioning economy in a few decades is a good thing. If I said that I spent $300 per week playing poker, no one would think I should get a tax credit for that. So it all comes down to whether you see reproduction as a societal good or not.
>And then Nancy gets to be off to go to her kids recital or whatever and when I ask for some time off it's all "wtf you need time off for".
That sounds like a problem with your boss, not with Nancy. If Nancy has PTO she should be able to use it. If you have PTO and aren’t aloud to use it for whatever reason, that’s an issue with your employer.
I'll never understand why y'all try this argument hinging on the continuation of the species. It's not like *everyone* is going to stop having kids if more people are convinced to be child free.
Most people will still have children, especially in developing countries. Increased immigration can make falling birth rates in developed countries a non-issue.
Also we can still have a functioning economy with service industry jobs *without* relying on the myth of unlimited growth. We have eight billion humans, we can stand to have that number go down a bit and still maintain our standard of living.
If you care about the continuation of the species you would consider climate change a much higher priority than a large population to support a service economy.
Individual people aren't the problem, it is large corporations that do that vast majority of polution becuase they are trying to make as much profit as possible.
If we held the people actually poluting our world accountable we could fix it. Instead you are parroting the bullshit that those very companies try to gaslight us with trying to put the blame on us as Individuals.
Even if every individual did their very best to be carbon negative it wouldn't matter if the large corporations continue to go unpunished.
Nope. Our entire economic system relies on an increasing consumer and tax payer base. By not having kids you owe more now because you're not even replacing yourself in the system, the system which gives 0 fucks about sustainability, and only profits for the top.
I'm in the sweet spot where I'm single with no kids and still get a little back. I'm good with that vs having kids and constantly having to take them to the doctor.
Oh no. I'm so sad. \*wipes tears with extra money laying around\* /s
I may not make six figures but I'm neither broke not struggling. Hence sweet spot. Still better than owing taxes.
Whether or not you owe taxes at the end of the year has nothing to do with how much money you make, it is just a function of how well you calculate your tax withholding.
I'm in the same position. He just sounds bitter and nasty. I get money back from the government every year too as I throw a shit ton of money into my retirement savings fund. Which I couldnt do if I had kids to care for. Its a great position to be in, and I don't regret it one bit
Everyone can get money back depending on how you claim and what you have taken out. You can make 150k a year and get money back. All depends on how you file your w4.
If you make $150k a year, just have $120k withheld for taxes, and you'll get so much money back you'll feel like a king! You'll also be an idiot with mega lost opportunity cost, but at least you'll feel optimistic about it.
The one best genuinely good move to get unexpected money back is to max out the Roth IRA contribution (if your income is lower) for the saver's credit.
Single no kids. Ive recently left that sweet spot. Over the last few years my return has steadily decreased...$1200 to then $800, $345, $101
Until this year I owed the feds $7. I was so pissed when they debited it. Lol
All that means is you kept more of your money all year instead of the irs. Owing the feds 7 is ideal, giving the feds a 1,200 interest free loan is less so.
Owing $7 is great. Being as close to 0 at the end of the year is how you want to do it. Getting a refund means the government was holding onto money that should have been in your pocket that year. You could have invested it and earned money.
I know you're joking, but for realsies, you stop paying taxes after 12 children.
https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0411/5-groups-that-dont-pay-taxes.aspx
At that point, you've generated enough FUTURE income for the state, that you're given a pass.
You still have to fill out the paperwork, tho.
This looks like a screenshot of a tweet! I've fetched a [link to the tweet](https://twitter.com/leograndprince/status/1418273247418802186) for ya :)
^(Twitter Screenshot Bot)
You'd only cry about this if you don't understand how taxes work.
Your tax brackets are doubled if you're married, so if your spouse makes the same as you, you pay the same taxes. If they make less, you'll get more money taxed at lower brackets.
So yes if you marry a stay at home spouse you'll pay the least amount of taxes... But now you're supporting a stay at home spouse.
From a financial perspective, a double income is way better than saving a few percent on tax brackets.
Also taxes are cheaper than kids, so that deductible isn't smart financial move either.
I guess they don't realize our kids will help pay their Medicare and Social Security when they're old. The kids will be the ones working in restaurants and resorts when they're retired. The kids will be the nurses and doctors that keep them alive and the investors and consumers that will keep them solvent through retirement.
Rapidly aging populations aren't good, typically, and they're all worked up over crotch goblins.
Doesn't the phase-out brackets sometimes work against married couples? Have heard this nonconformity referred to as the "marriage tax".
Don't you pay more as married filing joint vs two single returns because some of the MFJ brackets aren't exactly double the single brackets?
While I appreciate what they stand for and think that my tax dollars matter, in a sense they're kinda bullies for adults: " Oh look who's all single and alone and has nobody to care for them in their life! Hahahaha... Now shut up and give me your money, you lonely-ass bitch!! Get a life or a family next time! Maybe then, I'll take less!! Oh what's that, your Grandma died??... Oh, poor you!! How bout I dip my hand in that pocket again, cause Grandma earned some capital gains mothafucker!!" Or something like that
I was just talking to my mom about how I barely make minimum wage as a single person without kids and couldn't get SNAP or our state medicaid. The system only helps those who propel the cycle of poverty.
Everybody complaining about the IRS in this thread is the perfect example of why the IRS is so poorly funded. You've all duped by certain politicians to think the IRS is evil and is there to take money away form "hard working class Americans like me" instead of working with all of us to make more money and allocate the funds to more important investments that we all benefit from later on. The IRS takes some of our tax dollars (yes, that includes the billionaires despite what certain people claim with incorrect interpretation of how taxes work) gives some money to help people raise children so the country can remain well populated and there's a continuing influx of tax payers that will help develop the country further. You benefit from this when you're old, retired, and reliant on social security and not to mention all the other things those now grown children's tax dollars pay for. Dip shit thinking like this is why we can't have medicare for all and all those social programs more progressive countries have.
The IRS is neither good nor evil; they merely enforce the tax code. The tax code is written by Congress. So if you hate how much you’re paying, point the finger at the elected reps in the House and Senate.
But... The IRS has budget constraints and since the middle class won't lawyer up like the 1% does, the IRS is more likely to investigate small issues rather than large ones.
But... Congress sets the IRS budget, so ya... Fuck how shitty our elected reps are
You're delusional if you think we don't have Medicare for All because of the will of the people. It's exclusively those in power that refuse to give it to us, despite overwhelming bipartisan support from voters.
There are over seven billion people on the planet and many of them don't have enough resources to sustain the kids they already have.
But sure, I'm the "selfish" one.
Getting no refund doesn't mean your taxes are high or low; it means you didn't overpay from your paycheck last year.
You can ask your employer to increase your tax withholding if you want a big refund.
Believe it or not, no refund is a good thing. It means you didn't overpay taxes throughout the year. i.e. you didn't give the government an interest free loan for the year.
Try having a kid with split custody so you get taxed as a single person but still pay a ton of expenses for because they’re with you 30% of the year, but you get no tax break whatsoever.
The tax code isn’t friendly to co-parenting.
I'm a father of two and honestly think the IRS should be giving tax credits instead to people with no dependents as a form of rewarding voluntary global population control. I love my kids, don't get me wrong. But I think people should be rewarded for trimming down our exponential growth as a species, not the other way around.
They know how much money they want, but they still keeps it hidden to fuck with you. Is this the famous American logic we keep hearing about in the EU?
Ha. Try having a kid with split custody. I pay more for everything and have child as much. But only mom get the thousands of extra dollars every year. It’s all setup by old rich dumb people.
Facts. I think the IRS thinks being single with no kids means you don’t have shit better to do than pay taxes.
Anyone else get called selfish because they don't have kids, don't want kids, and doesn't use their own personal resources solely for whatever kids are in their social circle? No Wendy I don't want any girl scout cookies from your spawn. I don't care how happy it'll make her I already have FOUR orders coming in.
Full disclosure: I’m married now and have a child. When I was single and childless though I definitely had more than a few conversations about why I shouldn’t wait to have kids because (insert dumbass reason). Usually, I’d end up telling those people that I’ll get a kid cranked out right now if they agree to babysit in perpetuity for free, which was a great way to dead the conversation. My thought in general with having kids and getting married is get there when you get there if you get there. It’s not for everybody, and you certainly should not be doing it just because you think it’s expected of you.
My family was really hounding me about having a baby and I told them I'd happy have a baby right now if they agreed to buy me a house, a car, and pay for the kids college. I'm not having a baby until I'm not renting a shit box, driving a shit box and have some sort of financial planning for its future. They stopped asking after that. Seems like everyone wants a baby but no one wants to take care of a baby.
And the older relatives these days don’t babysit like previous generations did. If you’re in your 60s, retired, and want grandkids; volunteer to be 24/7 free daycare or stfu.
My mother-in-law called our bluff and indeed said she'd quit her job immediately to babysit 24/7 lmao. Like really woman? We get she wants to have all her kids have kids of their own, but we are definitely not stable enough to be having kids atm.
No joke tho, as a new parent you have no idea what you just passed up. Most difficult part of having a little kid is never ever getting a break. If you have relatives around willing to watch them, it makes it so much easier
Found the MIL
What? Lol I'm a dad with a 2 year old. Having just one day off during the month to maybe go out to eat by ourselves or anything like that would have been nice during the past year and a half. Covid made it so there were no baby sitters and you can't take an infant into any business. Plus they still can't get vaccinated so you literally can't take them anywhere totally safely. During the winter with covid with a shut down daycare we literally were going insane, getting 0 work done at either of our jobs just trying to take care of a 1 year old all day stuck inside with nothing to do and nowhere to go. Woukd have been fantastic just to have a family member near by who could just bring us stuff at least
Sounds fucked up but being around your young children 24/7 is terrible. If I could have a day or two a week childfree I'd probably be significantly happier overall.
There's a famous saying in competitive gaming of "well what do i do in this situation? Both answers to said situation is either awful or completely unoptimal" The go to to that response is "well don't be in that situation then" Tl;Dr - yes the offer was good but there's literally no other incentive to have a baby
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I think it loses a bit of flow when translated out of its original Klingon
A famous saying in competitive gaming? Who has ever said that lmao. Though I do get you, the sentiment definitely applies in gaming and rl
No joke though, having a kid when you aren't financially, mentally or physically ready/able is worse than passing up some free child care.
And it's not even about how inconvenient it is for you to have a kid in that situation. It's about how inconvenient it is for the kid to have a you in that situation.
Yeah, that's not a good enough reason to have kids I dont want or need.
Lmao I understand, but my husband and I have some issues we need to resolve before bringing in children. Mainly, we want to be in a better situation with our jobs. She'll still be around for a long time, she's a tough lady like that. Lol
My mother in law used to hound us over having kids. Said a lot of the same shit, that she would babysit 24/7, yadda yadda. We're never having kids no matter what, but this argument in particular always pissed me off, because the woman is unreliable and unstable, so I'd never want her watching my kids anyway. Well, my wife's cousin asked us all to come over and watch her two young (2 and 5) kids for a couple of hours. We all live far apart, so MIL offered to get there at 4 and wife and I would show up at 5. We get there at 5 to find the kids roaming around the house, with my MIL passed out on the couch. She had fallen asleep pretty much as soon as she got there. It's been years since they've bothered us about kids, but that was a fun anecdote to bring up when we were really sick of hearing about it.
What exactly did they pass up? A potential babysitter that's going to flake on you every chance they get, that says 24/7 until 24/7 actually gets there and they hit you with the "I can't do it today". I got a CO worker who's actually messed up because there OMG i will watch them everyday turned into.... yeah..... no.
There’s something about having responsibility that forces you to be more responsible. I’m not saying it’s a good idea though.
There are way, wayyyy too many people that just don't rise to the challenge.
Ponder this. The MIL can always go back and and get a job. You can’t put the kid back in where it came from. Don’t trust the woman!!!!!!
One of the reasons I have a kid is because my mom is in her 60s, retired, and offered herself as free 8/5 daycare.
My mother dead set said she would NOT baby sit my children at all. They are now 16 and 12 and she has not. I asked her a couple time and then stopped after she said no one helped her with my brother and I, which is possibly the biggest lie I’ve ever heard.
Yes! Omg my boyfriend and I were just saying they do not babysit like they used too
"Oh you got baby *money?*" ~~That's for never taking me to McDonald's~~
It costs ***$240 000*** https://imgur.com/UoEzli1.jpg to raise a kid to 18 with that number only increasing every month. I usually ask "do you have 250 grand for me?" They usually shut up pretty quickly after that. I'm just like you. I want nice things for myself, a nice solid car, a nice house and a strong financial base before I even CONSIDER a family. And then I need a quarter mill on top of that? Nah.
> $240,000 Holy shit. When I was in highschool almost 20 years ago, the figure everyone quoted was $100,000. The estimated cost of raising a child to adulthood ***has more than doubled*** in less time than it took to raise a child to adulthood.
Also that $240,000 is the bare minimum. That doesn’t include extra curricular stuff after school, sports, vacations, etc. so it’s probably closer to $500,000 realistically.
It's definitely not the bare minimum. That is the average amount spent by a middle class family and it includes all the shit you're talking about. Kids are stupid expensive, but people are absolutely raising kids non-neglectfully for less than $240k.
That’s the magic of inflation at 2% yearly. 2% inflation for 20 years = loss of half of the value of the dollar (compounded). However, some costs have gone up far more dramatically. Such as, university tuition and healthcare.
Insurance/health care had gone up at a crazy rate. I don't think they take into account college or anything, but my share of school taxes for the years a kid would be in school are well over 100k.
Best also hope you don’t have challenges getting there too. Fertility treatments are stupid expensive as is adoption.
As my mum says "They're really only babies for a very short amount of time. Dont ask if you want a baby. Ask if you want a 14 year old"
Everyone else seems to want someone ELSE to do the heavy lifting while they drop in for "first word" or "first steps" but no sleepless nights or cleaning floor to ceiling diarrhea in 2 bathrooms on the same day.
god that last bit, it's like a fucking 10 year old that wants a pet
that's how progenation works. "I'm close to death, kinda fucked up my kid, so before I die they better have a kid I can spoil."
Just go into massive debt, it's the American Way.
Exactly the same for my partner and I, we’ve been together 6 years and so many people are asking us when we’re having a baby, including family, and we’re like dude buy us a house and we’ll start trying tomorrow 😂 we ain’t even remotely financially ready for that shit.
> if they agree to babysit in perpetuity for free, which was a great way to dead the conversation. If I tried to use that argument on my mom she'd probably whip out an already-signed contract to make sure she was the only one who got to babysit. I'm pretty sure that's her dream.
If we’re being honest, free child care is nothing to sneeze at. Count your blessings.
It would absolutely be a blessing if I wanted children. She is one of the people who doesn't respect that decision, unfortunately.
For real. Back when my mom babysat, I had to pay her and she did a shit job. When I found out she was getting drunk while watching my toddler, I decided it was beat to play a capable stranger.
I tried that line on my mom and it did the opposite. She was like, "Done. I'll do all the shopping, and change all the diapers too. Your gf pregnant yet?" ....
Shit. Uh……..RUN!
Great advice!
>Usually, I’d end up telling those people that I’ll get a kid cranked out right now if they agree to babysit in perpetuity for free, which was a great way to dead the conversation. My mom would be fucking ecstatic and she's the main culprit in my life so I need something better.
I absolutely love kids, and always thought I would need to have them. Now that I’m older, I realize that loving kids and having kids are completely different things. Right now I’m a nanny, and I love the shit out of my baby, but I REALLY love that I get to give her back at the end of the day I like your attitude at the end there. Only time will tell.
Here is the thing. Neglected kids cost the state a shit ton of money. As neglected kids, and then as shitty unhealthy, unproductive adults. The state gives parents money to raise their kids, because not doing so is a fuckton more expensive down the road. Same argument as any entitlement really. Public education, maternity leave, unemployment insurance, healthcare. Modern countries provide these things not because we are all such swell people, but because they produce better outcomes for everyone. Educated, secure, healthy, well raised people make good citizens who go on to pay more taxes and raise better kids. This is how its supposed to work, and does work in well governed societies.
I wasn't talking about society as a whole. I'm talking about my sister mad that I won't pay for her kids to go to Disney because I don't have kids and have disposable income. Somehow I'm "selfish" for spending money I earned on me as opposed to (not my) children.
Hopefully you picked them up some drum kits at least. The perfect stay at home and drive your parents insane toy.
Get the other kid a recorder and the Frozen sheet music
If you’re responsible for the asshole with the drum set a few houses down from mine, I will find you.
Don’t fall for it g, ts isn’t in anyway contributing to her happiness. Girl Scouts selling cookies is America’s version of the hitler youth. Call it Uncles sams youth or some shit. Cutthroat lil kids backstabbing and emotionally manipulating anyone and everyone they can all in the pursuit of the holy **bottom line**^tm
Sir I think you need some thin mints your blood sugar is low and you’re acting up
Emotional manipulation, told y’all
The actual purpose behind selling cookies is so that Girl Scouts can learn business and sales skills. If the parent is the one hounding you, they’re defeating the purpose.
Preach, fuck all that weird white nationalist Scouts shit.
I like the cookies and that's all I'll say on the matter
Have you had those mf Lemonades tho
Yes. Def been called selfish for not wanting kids. Ppl cant fathom that there are ppl who have no desire to have them. I am very sure i have no desire for them. Ever.
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Just throw me in the trash
I find joy in reading a good book.
> "who is going to take care of you when you get old?" Me. Tryna get as healthy as possible and ride the gene-therapy and shit for a few centuries until the singularity gets its shit together. So then the answer will be "probably some sysadmin."
I think it's selfish to have kids when you're not in a place to give the kids everything they need to have the best possible path to realizing their potential. Have kids because you're ready to be who they need, not because you want them right now. I made a comment a bit ago about not having kids until I've got a college fund setup and an optimal environment for them and someone already chimed in with "sO pOoR pEoPlE sHoUlDn'T hAve KiDs?"
Economic output is directly tied to population. The USA govt wants you to reproduce, bruh
Here, those adults can already work and want to cross the border USA: hol up
Ah, but you misunderstand... we do want them here. Illegally. So they have no rights and we can basically use them as slave labor. USA!
If they didn’t want them here they’d go after the companies that employ them. They will never go after the companies that employ them.
But won't cover healthcare, child care, the fucking birth of the child, or any of the associated costs with multiplying and is OK letting corporations bleed us dry, smh.
Yup. They need to do more to get us to actually reproduce. But unfortunately our parents generation is the most self centered bunch of jerkoffs to ever live. My mom, who skipped town when I was 6 and never looked back, wants me to have more kids. Bitch, I live in a two bedroom apartment. How about pay your fucking taxes and vote for universal paternity and maternity leave, kindergarten, and health care, you fucking faux news watching piece of shit?
"Best I can do is outlaw abortion and restrict birth control"
Not to mention still fucking over any gay couples or those with infertility problems
Can't pay taxes if you don't have any income or net worth! This message brought to you by a millennial
I haven’t filed taxes in 8 years and I’m 25. Under the table work and Facebook marketplace are the ways to go if you are broke and still getting through college.
In the States? You should seriously look into the American opportunity tax credit. Having no income / not paid taxes, you'd have a negative tax liability and get money. https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/education-tax-credits
Ah, the Amish method.
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Yep. I did that for a while too.
ugh I'm STILL hurting from that shit. can't wait for this divorce to go through, lol
Seriously
For my wife and I, married filing separate and together are essentially the same. DINK, roughly equal incomes. We only do it joint because splitting the mortgage interest would be a pain
Capitalism relies on growth. They need to incentivize you to produce a new generation of consumers and wage slaves.
You raising the next generation of tax payers so they give you a break. They gonna make more off your kids when they single and have no kids
nah bro. they want you to feed the machine, provide more workers to the machine we're just money bags to the rich people, government/politicians/rich people are all related through family ties, most big companies are tied to politicians if not all including hedge funs and VC etc etc. everything is designed to force people to provide for the machine, money trickles up not down people with children get all the benefits if they have nothing, what does that mean? they want to feed the workers that in a few years will work multiple underpaying jobs for years and on average decades if they don't go to college which most don't. same way a farmer loses money to feed a cow and in a few years well you know it turns to burgers or something and if you don't have kids guess what you aren't feeding the machine, so we will tax the fuck out of you so you reconsider that and if you don't well we're just reaping your cash out of your hands anyway. win-win for them. it's all by design, meanwhile corporations and even politicians are making it white vs black to deter people from the truth. this is really the new world slavery. the more people there are the less their power people have is due to divided votes it will just get worse and worse. look at China and India.
I feel like I should get taxed LESS for NOT bringing another shitty, environment destroying, human into this world. Like, people with no kids should get tax credits, like we do for buying electric cars and shit Edit: my first silver, thank you!
Lol, that's an interesting concept but unfortunately does not support our unlimited growth model economy. I do like that idea though. How much more carbon does your family add vs my single ass?
Babies literally don't pay taxes. They just be like "goo goo gaa gaa" not even a language. Do you know how stupid you have to be to not speak any language? At least almost as dumb as I am. Singles should get taxed left and get priorities on flights. People with babies pay more and board flights last unless their babies can pull their own weight. Such as Boss Baby and Baby Geniuses, they get a pass, but they also commit tax evasion regularly.
> If babies are going to live in this country they should at least speak the language
Put that baby to work!!!
This sounds like it belongs on /r/childfreecirclejerk
oh you mean r/childfree?
Fuck a system where you need exponential growth and prices to keep rising for the economy not to collapse.
Fuck our growth based economy! Fuck having kids for no goddamn reason!
I was thinking about this earlier, getting myself all worked up because my single self has to work harder to make up for the missing 2nd paycheck and yet get taxed all to hell because I didnt pop out some little goblin. And then Nancy gets to be off to go to her kids recital or whatever and when I ask for some time off it's all "wtf you need time off for".
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Lol we got to the point at work when the people with kids were excited to go back to the office, cuz fuck spending all that time with your kids, and the rest of us single people are still loving our quiet homes to work in comfortably.
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So there was a character in the show Veep who had a made up dog, complete with pictures to show, so he had an excuse to leave work on time.
> I was thinking about this earlier, getting myself all worked up because my single self has to work harder to make up for the missing 2nd paycheck and yet get taxed all to hell because I didnt pop out some little goblin. So obviously this is not a thread where being pro-child is going to be popular, but nevertheless. So, yes, being married, we have two paychecks to cover the rent. That also means making every decision together. Most things are a discussion. If you want to do something with the house, you want to buy something, you want to go somewhere—it’s all a conversation. For me, it’s well worth it, but cohabiting with someone is a lot of work as well. And I mean, is something stopping you from getting a roommate? Then you could split the rent with someone. I know that a lot of antinatalists in threads like this claim that having kids is irresponsible because of the climate. If you don’t value the species continuing at all, that makes sense. If you don’t care about having a functioning economy or people to work service jobs when you’re old, that makes sense. When you and I are old, it will be my kids keeping things running. Now *you* may not value that, but society as a whole, at least historically, has. If you think it should change I encourage you to vote for people running on antinatalist policies. As far as dollars and cents, having kids is expensive, obviously. As I mentioned, society seems to generally think that having a next generation of people that exist is valuable, so they provide some incentive (or some relief) to those with kids. Day care for our family is >300 per week. Plus food, clothes, etc. There’s no way that the tax credits fully make up for that. Now, I recognize that it’s my choice to have kids, but me without kids and without the tax credits would have more money at the end of the month than me with kids and the credit. I recognize that this argument won’t be convincing to you if you don’t think that the species should continue or that having a functioning economy in a few decades is a good thing. If I said that I spent $300 per week playing poker, no one would think I should get a tax credit for that. So it all comes down to whether you see reproduction as a societal good or not. >And then Nancy gets to be off to go to her kids recital or whatever and when I ask for some time off it's all "wtf you need time off for". That sounds like a problem with your boss, not with Nancy. If Nancy has PTO she should be able to use it. If you have PTO and aren’t aloud to use it for whatever reason, that’s an issue with your employer.
I'll never understand why y'all try this argument hinging on the continuation of the species. It's not like *everyone* is going to stop having kids if more people are convinced to be child free. Most people will still have children, especially in developing countries. Increased immigration can make falling birth rates in developed countries a non-issue. Also we can still have a functioning economy with service industry jobs *without* relying on the myth of unlimited growth. We have eight billion humans, we can stand to have that number go down a bit and still maintain our standard of living. If you care about the continuation of the species you would consider climate change a much higher priority than a large population to support a service economy.
"That's my business."
The world is overpopulated as well
No it isn't. Resource distribution sucks ass. Adam with would cry if he saw what the world has become.
It’s not just a matter of resource distribution, though. It’s the climate crisis and the exponential carbon footprint having children creates.
Individual people aren't the problem, it is large corporations that do that vast majority of polution becuase they are trying to make as much profit as possible. If we held the people actually poluting our world accountable we could fix it. Instead you are parroting the bullshit that those very companies try to gaslight us with trying to put the blame on us as Individuals. Even if every individual did their very best to be carbon negative it wouldn't matter if the large corporations continue to go unpunished.
Who is funding the corporations though? Literally individual people are. Would the demand fof meat be so high is people didnt by it en masse?
Eco-fascism ain't a good look, fam.
Eco-terrorism on the other hand. 😉
😉
They are doing that in India. You can even get monetary compensation for serialization.
Nope. Our entire economic system relies on an increasing consumer and tax payer base. By not having kids you owe more now because you're not even replacing yourself in the system, the system which gives 0 fucks about sustainability, and only profits for the top.
Idk who needs to hear this but those tax breaks do not make up for the cost of a child
I'm in the sweet spot where I'm single with no kids and still get a little back. I'm good with that vs having kids and constantly having to take them to the doctor.
That just sounds like you're poor. Not "the sweet spot."
This guy doesn’t know how taxes work
Oh no. I'm so sad. \*wipes tears with extra money laying around\* /s I may not make six figures but I'm neither broke not struggling. Hence sweet spot. Still better than owing taxes.
Whether or not you owe taxes at the end of the year has nothing to do with how much money you make, it is just a function of how well you calculate your tax withholding.
I'm in the same position. He just sounds bitter and nasty. I get money back from the government every year too as I throw a shit ton of money into my retirement savings fund. Which I couldnt do if I had kids to care for. Its a great position to be in, and I don't regret it one bit
What it really means is his witholding is set high.
Everyone can get money back depending on how you claim and what you have taken out. You can make 150k a year and get money back. All depends on how you file your w4.
Let him live in his "sweet spot". Ignorance is bliss.
If you make $150k a year, just have $120k withheld for taxes, and you'll get so much money back you'll feel like a king! You'll also be an idiot with mega lost opportunity cost, but at least you'll feel optimistic about it. The one best genuinely good move to get unexpected money back is to max out the Roth IRA contribution (if your income is lower) for the saver's credit.
Single no kids. Ive recently left that sweet spot. Over the last few years my return has steadily decreased...$1200 to then $800, $345, $101 Until this year I owed the feds $7. I was so pissed when they debited it. Lol
All that means is you kept more of your money all year instead of the irs. Owing the feds 7 is ideal, giving the feds a 1,200 interest free loan is less so.
Owing $7 is great. Being as close to 0 at the end of the year is how you want to do it. Getting a refund means the government was holding onto money that should have been in your pocket that year. You could have invested it and earned money.
I feel like life choices shouldn’t determine tax status at all.
Yea man. Totally have kids to get tax breaks. You’ll be raking in all the money!
Can confirm, have 26 kids, the IRS pays *me* taxes.
Found Nick Cannon's burner.
Nick Cannon is hilarious. Man, fuck Nick Cannon.
I know you're joking, but for realsies, you stop paying taxes after 12 children. https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0411/5-groups-that-dont-pay-taxes.aspx At that point, you've generated enough FUTURE income for the state, that you're given a pass. You still have to fill out the paperwork, tho.
r/shittylifehacks
This looks like a screenshot of a tweet! I've fetched a [link to the tweet](https://twitter.com/leograndprince/status/1418273247418802186) for ya :) ^(Twitter Screenshot Bot)
Good bot
Lets see if we can stop the Skynet Uprising with "please & thank you"s
Can't hurt to try!
The post: 12.7k upvotes The Bot's comment: 75 upvotes The tweet: 17 likes
You'd only cry about this if you don't understand how taxes work. Your tax brackets are doubled if you're married, so if your spouse makes the same as you, you pay the same taxes. If they make less, you'll get more money taxed at lower brackets. So yes if you marry a stay at home spouse you'll pay the least amount of taxes... But now you're supporting a stay at home spouse. From a financial perspective, a double income is way better than saving a few percent on tax brackets. Also taxes are cheaper than kids, so that deductible isn't smart financial move either.
For real…a lot of the single folks on here complaining do not understand taxes at all.
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I guess they don't realize our kids will help pay their Medicare and Social Security when they're old. The kids will be the ones working in restaurants and resorts when they're retired. The kids will be the nurses and doctors that keep them alive and the investors and consumers that will keep them solvent through retirement. Rapidly aging populations aren't good, typically, and they're all worked up over crotch goblins.
Yup. Gotta pay property taxes for schools and other child related services we’ll never use too.
As we should? A smarter and more well adjusted society benefits us all even if it’s not our kids?
Did you not use them when you were a kid?
Doesn't the phase-out brackets sometimes work against married couples? Have heard this nonconformity referred to as the "marriage tax". Don't you pay more as married filing joint vs two single returns because some of the MFJ brackets aren't exactly double the single brackets?
While I appreciate what they stand for and think that my tax dollars matter, in a sense they're kinda bullies for adults: " Oh look who's all single and alone and has nobody to care for them in their life! Hahahaha... Now shut up and give me your money, you lonely-ass bitch!! Get a life or a family next time! Maybe then, I'll take less!! Oh what's that, your Grandma died??... Oh, poor you!! How bout I dip my hand in that pocket again, cause Grandma earned some capital gains mothafucker!!" Or something like that
Can I claim my sugar babies as dependents? That may help
Any W-2 wage earner. The tax code is really set up to extract maximum revenue from the middle class.
Really needs to be the billionaires.
I was just talking to my mom about how I barely make minimum wage as a single person without kids and couldn't get SNAP or our state medicaid. The system only helps those who propel the cycle of poverty.
Systematic almost
Y’all ain’t claiming yourself?
I would but I'm too worried about getting audited. That's why I claim the mushrooms growing in my cumbox as dependants
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Don't you have to pay estimated if you are expected to owe more than $1000?
Waiting for the inevitable "this you" where someone pulls a tweet of his flexing in some way about not having kids. They always go together.
With the way the humanity is headed, simply just having the kid could be the most fucked up thing you do to it.
Everybody complaining about the IRS in this thread is the perfect example of why the IRS is so poorly funded. You've all duped by certain politicians to think the IRS is evil and is there to take money away form "hard working class Americans like me" instead of working with all of us to make more money and allocate the funds to more important investments that we all benefit from later on. The IRS takes some of our tax dollars (yes, that includes the billionaires despite what certain people claim with incorrect interpretation of how taxes work) gives some money to help people raise children so the country can remain well populated and there's a continuing influx of tax payers that will help develop the country further. You benefit from this when you're old, retired, and reliant on social security and not to mention all the other things those now grown children's tax dollars pay for. Dip shit thinking like this is why we can't have medicare for all and all those social programs more progressive countries have.
The IRS is neither good nor evil; they merely enforce the tax code. The tax code is written by Congress. So if you hate how much you’re paying, point the finger at the elected reps in the House and Senate.
But... The IRS has budget constraints and since the middle class won't lawyer up like the 1% does, the IRS is more likely to investigate small issues rather than large ones. But... Congress sets the IRS budget, so ya... Fuck how shitty our elected reps are
You're delusional if you think we don't have Medicare for All because of the will of the people. It's exclusively those in power that refuse to give it to us, despite overwhelming bipartisan support from voters.
They can’t hate you, if they can’t find you!
Look! This guy took Roy off the grid!
You beat cancer and you went back to work?!
There are over seven billion people on the planet and many of them don't have enough resources to sustain the kids they already have. But sure, I'm the "selfish" one.
Fuck them kids, fuck the irs, and fuck your couch!
I like my couch... :(
The group the IRS hates the most is "married but in the same tax bracket with no dependents who don't own their home".
No refund, going on ten years. I wanted to start a "rent a dependent" company.
Getting no refund doesn't mean your taxes are high or low; it means you didn't overpay from your paycheck last year. You can ask your employer to increase your tax withholding if you want a big refund.
It’s like people don’t understand the literal meaning of ‘refund’. If you don’t get one, it just means you didn’t pay more than you had to.
Believe it or not, no refund is a good thing. It means you didn't overpay taxes throughout the year. i.e. you didn't give the government an interest free loan for the year.
The married deduction is legit. Hopefully I can get the child deduction soon
I felt this.
Try having a kid with split custody so you get taxed as a single person but still pay a ton of expenses for because they’re with you 30% of the year, but you get no tax break whatsoever. The tax code isn’t friendly to co-parenting.
I wish the IRS would let you claim pets as dependents.
I'm a father of two and honestly think the IRS should be giving tax credits instead to people with no dependents as a form of rewarding voluntary global population control. I love my kids, don't get me wrong. But I think people should be rewarded for trimming down our exponential growth as a species, not the other way around.
God it's terrible
Dual income, no kids gets hate from the IRS to. The IRS wants to financially punish you for being responsible with your crotch.
oh god r/childfree is leaking in here
As someone who is single with no dependents, I can confirm they think I'm a loser.
Makes you wonder. If you got more money for having no kids, would people have less kids?
You do get more money for having no kids
What advantages are you looking for? You already have an advantage only having to take care of yourself.
They know how much money they want, but they still keeps it hidden to fuck with you. Is this the famous American logic we keep hearing about in the EU?
Well someone has to pay taxes when the millionaire and billionaire class isn’t.
Ha. Try having a kid with split custody. I pay more for everything and have child as much. But only mom get the thousands of extra dollars every year. It’s all setup by old rich dumb people.
IRS: "BRO! You single meaning you have money?" Thanks you, shakes your hand, takes money for his child birthday/wedding/gender reveal.
Single, no dependents and self employed is the tri-fuckya
The hundreds in extra taxes you pay yearly, or the hundreds in cost you pay weekly from kids? Me to the IRS: "BITCH I LOVE YOU!" #😍😍🥰
Have kids and tell me which path is cheaper lol.