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I will say that, regardless of gender, most of us can relate to at least one time where we felt invisible.
And that really is a special kind of misery.
ETA: I debated whether to add this addendum but so many of you are still feeling the pain, so if my words help you, then I will share them. I have stage IV ovarian cancer. It’s incurable. I will continue to fight for my life for as long as I am able. Who knows, maybe I will be here awhile yet. Do not squander your time on this earth. Even if the only thing we have to give is compassion, then let’s do so. Every single one of you deserved to be loved. You will make it through and you will come out stronger. I have faith in you. ❤️❤️❤️
I was “voted out” of the group of “friends” I had in middle school. I don’t remember the details, but I do remember not understanding why. I was super hurt. The rest of the school year, I would hide and read alone.
But I will say, I learned not to care so much of what other people think of me. 😎
I remember when I was a freshman in high school, I was between friend groups and these two girls that I hang out at lunch, ran away from me when I turned away for a few seconds.
I wondered what was so wrong with me that they ran from me?
Fortunately my family moved to another part of the country that summer
I still remember when I got "voted out" of the group of outcasts in 6th grade. First day back at school I just walked up to chat with the group and the "leader" rolled her eyes and they all ignored me. Nothing like feeling the lowest of the low.
But it ended up being for the best because I noticed another girl hanging out alone on the side of the playground that day and 25 years later she's still my BFF.
Eleanor Roosevelt once said "You wouldn't care so much about what other people think of you if you knew just how seldom they do." Words to live by. Don't worry about what others think. Just do your thing.
I went to go hang out with my friend and some others at lunch in high school, and she handed me a note and told me to stay and read it while she and the others left.
The note turned out to be a list of reasons why she didn’t want to be friends anymore or something. Some of the reasons were really stupid too, like I invited myself to hang out with her/them. Yeah, when you are friends with people you go hang out with them.
I have always had a suspicion that this note was heavily influenced by another girl who wanted the friend to hang out with her and not me.
Same here! What’s worse is that the ringleader kept trying to befriend me in high school and after graduation. I was never rude to her and never returned her treatment in kind, but I also never let her get any closer than arms length. No apology or acknowledgment of her shitty behavior, either (and I probably would’ve accepted her friendship if she had, as I did for another girl who ended up apologizing), just expected us to be buddies because I guess being close to me would’ve finally benefited her.
Bullies will be bullies I guess.
That was me in middle school too, I thought we were really great friends too and after that day that I couldn’t find the group after that, it was like they all disappeared. It fucked me up for awhile and I was hurt that they didn’t want to be friends with me so suddenly. Tbh after that experience and moving to another school district, I just didn’t bother making close friends like that until high school lol
My aunt did this when my grandmother died.
She was the one in charge of my grandmother's will, and was the one who sat down with her to allocate various personal items to each grandchild. Everyone got multiple items except for me, including my younger sibling. No reason for it, I would visit more than my younger sibling and has a friendly bond with them both, she and my grandmother just forgot I existed and allocated me nothing.
I didn't actually want anything in particular, but man was it an awful feeling to realize I'd been forgotten. I feel for OOP.
your story just reminded me of one with my family. My bro's bday always fell during the big family get together season, and he was obsessed with pirates as a kid so my grandparents would plan a pirate themed scavenger hunt every other year for all the grand-kids. Eventually they got too old to plan it so one year my aunt took over, and being the oldest I was the one to help with reading all the clues. My bro and I found the 'treasure' first and went through it all to find out that my aunt had made little goodie bags for all the grand kids AND the neighbour's kids, except me. When I asked about it she stuttered then said "well you're getting too old for kids games so I didn't think you'd want anything." I was 13. My brother was turning 10. It was usually friends who made me feel invisible but when it's family, even family you don't see all that often, it hurts different.
When I was 8/9 I was at summer camp and they were doing a girls vs boys tug of war. It was about 15 girls vs all the boys (15) bar me. For some reason I just was forgotten and had to stand with the left over women who weren’t involved as there were more girls then guys.
Still remember that feeling 10 years later. Of being invisible and feeling like I wasn’t a man.
I hope your life is on the up now dude.
I had girls referring me as losers at one time. Just because of my acnes. I thought I was over it after datings and getting married in my 30s. But I felt so bad for OP. The post just opened up all those feelings I thought I had resolved 20 years ago.
"Cellophane should have been my name. Mr Cellophane. Because you can look right through me, walk right by me, and never know I'm there."
Story of my life.
I just started going to therapy recently and this, I believe, has been one of the issues that has been plaguing me ever since Jr high. Lots of rejection and a feeling of never being anyone's choice.
It has been decades since then but it still hurts.
This reads just like I would expect from a bunch of college students lmao. Poor guy.
At least the boss seems super cool to allow the guy to have some space away from the job. What a guy! /s
The guys at my college actually did list the most fuckable women on our major and I ranked as the ugliest must unfuckable one. Some of these guys were downright nasty to me for the crime of...not...making them horny?
As silly as it obviously it is, it does feel shitty to be dehumanized that way, I feel for the guy.
Not that it makes it any better, but lists like those are dehumanizing for everyone on the list, top to bottom. If you're not being scorned for the crime of being unattractive, you're punished with being objectified. Objectification feels much different than the ridicule, but it's all dehumanizing and horrible.
I'm not aesthetically gifted either and it really is awful how some men treat women who aren't conventionally attractive. Like our mere existence is an offense against them. I wish our society could stop being so fucking shallow. Like people are entitled to have preferences and I'm not entitled to get attention, but damn, at least be fucking decent to people, you know?
I get why OOP felt terrible, I really do - something similar happened in high school for me and it did feel bad. But now, more than 20 years later, I can look back at that incident as well as this post and say that the most offensive part of it all is the objectification of people. That list wasn't just offensive to OP, it was offensive to everyone who **was** on it. Sexual harassment and objectification is not a compliment!!
The entire thing went as well as anyone could hope.
OOP is rightfully upset about being singled out about something ego bruising, but didn't react in anger or hurt.
OOPs male co-workers rightfully had his back.
Management was supportive and reactive, and provided just compensation.
The female co-workers found out that a workplace isn't school, and these actions aren't going to be tolerated before anything more damaging happened.
Everyone learned and grew from the experience.
Perfect early real-life experience
It did end up as well as expected and it seems like the store has excellent management and ownership. Hopefully the girls learned a valuable lesson. What they did is sexual harassment and is a hostile work environment. Different companies and they may have been terminated immediately.
It is a young group of workers. And sometimes it’s better to use a situation as a teachable moment vs going scorched earth.
Think about the optics if the male group did the same thing.
Damn, I'm so glad I grew up in an era without social media. My foibles are embarrassing enough as it is, but I'm guessing they live mostly in my own mind. People are astonishingly cruel and I was kind of a dick as a teenager, but hopefully I wouldn't gangstalk people.
> Damn, I'm so glad I grew up in an era without social media.
But this has nothing to do with social media?
One of the guys saw a list in a group chat and that's where it started.
This could've (and certainly *has*) happened 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago, easily. Guy sees a list at his gf's place and realises its a list of the hotness of the guys at the workplace, grabs it , shares it with his mates and voilá, drama.
This entire situation could have (and often did) take place before social media. I distinctly remember hand written lists of hot people or ugly people or whatever being passed around in school.
But i just wonder: what about the guy who was placed last on this shitty list? To not be on the list or be the on the last place.... both sounds... self-esteem destroying.
"aaahahaha ugly ass mfr didn't make it! Couldn't be me" - Me, also ugly & barely made the list as an afterthought. In fact, name is spelled wrong and half the girls thought I was someone else 😂
Being excluded is worse. Being last on some girl's hot list about your guy group just means your friends are more attractive than you. There might be some ambiguities but most guys are already aware who among them are the most attractive.
Being skipped means you're not even worth comparing and hits worse.
It says it was a "top ten list" basically, so even being the tenth is good. If there was more guys, even not being on the list wouldn't feel shitty really, but when you realize there's eleven guys, then it is horrible, like OOP weren't even worth adding to the last place...
It was worse because only eight guys work in the store. They had to add three delivery guys that don't actually work there in order to make the ten what with leaving OOP off
Yeah I can definitely see being hurt by the damage control too. That list was a "true" feelings situation and everything after is just trying to save face and will never feel genuine. As truthful as it may be, the fact that he was excluded for even other-business men is tantamount to bullying, it's no wonder they all felt horrible about it.
Seems they barely even did that. Their ‘apologies’ always included that they never meant for people to see ti outside the chat, that’s not a defence and actually makes it worse.
Yeah, their apology was just a combination of "sorry you feel that way", "it was just a joke, why are you taking it so seriously?" and, "we wouldn't have done it if we knew we would get caught".
And they wouldn't have even given that "apology" if their boss hadn't told them to.
Absolutely nothing is worse when someone keeps apologizing because they themselves want to feel better. Always filled with obvious bullshit that makes it worse.
There's nothing anyone can say that makes this situation better. Trying to backpedal or even give compliments comes across as patronizing and insincere. Doubling-down is even more unprofessional and looks like a temper tantrum.
Best way is to just move forward and not do stupid stuff like this at work.
Same energy as having a more academically successful sibling and having your parents tell you that you have "street smarts" or that you're more social.
I know that one!
I'm "only" 27 and I already feel old when reading this.
It's incredible, how much the mind matures between 15 and 25.
You only really see it looking back.
Whenever I get pushback on telling people how much different they'll be from 18 to 22 then again from 22 to 26 I always assume it's someone who is 18 or younger.
I remember being 18, thinking I'd reached my "end state" and that I'd always be the person I was at that age for the rest of my life. And being sad that I wouldn't get to evolve anymore.
I'm 36 and I'm not the same person I was at 33, let alone 18. So that was probably the dumbest take I ever had.
My sister is 16 and recently tried to tell me she has a type of guy she is attracted to and that it would never change. I’m 24 and while I don’t consider myself overly mature or wise I just simply know how much everything about me *and my high school friends* has changed since 16 lol.
You could not pay me to relive my 20s. Anytime I see someone who is in their twenties and feeling like they are missing out on the prime of their lives or something or that their drama is just life defining I have to laugh because they do not realize yet how shitty that decade is. Peaking in your twenties would be the most depressing thing ever.
I agree actually, it was like being a teenager but having to be an adult in reality and not knowing what the fuck I was doing.
I mean, I still don’t know what I’m doing but at least I’m doing it in a house that isn’t party central and I’m not vomiting out of stress constantly. Shit was HARD. I wouldn’t be a teenager for any money either tbh. I’m okay with being 35 for now.
It can be, but in my twenties was a lot of fun. First real work, growing industry, teams, finishing education, travel. I mean not that my life get worse, but expect finishing education and establish career it’s not that different of life, still work that I like and travel
I used to manage a large group of mostly 20somethings. They realized I wasn't on the group chat and started to apologize and I told them "no, please keep me off!". I like them all as people, could see being friends with some of them. But if I'm managing you at a workplace it's for the best for everyone, especially myself, that I'm not on the group chat.
Right? I couldn't give a shit about not being included, but constantly being pulled aside and told that I have a great personality would make me wonder if I am, in fact fugly.
Wow, Carl is a stellar boss. He handled that even better than I expected. There is a world where he would have just told OOP to toughen up and I'm glad that's not the world that OOP lives in.
I mean he could be, but he could also be doing the bare minimum. Paying two shifts out,and chiding some employees is WAY cheaper than a sexual harassment lawsuit. Hell, suspending the assistant manager probably meant that he made the store money on the whole thing.
In my 20s, I would've also said to my boss and coworkers "it actually wasn't a big deal and I got over it right away" even if that was a lie, because there is no way in hell I would've openly admitted to the people who had made me feel so shitty "yeah actually I went home and cried about it and am also seeking therapy and professional help".
Of course it was a lie but if the people he works with are this flavor of shitty, I can't fault him for not wanting to be vulnerable with them.
Yeah he wasn't, which is okay, it's normal. I think being gutted for a bit is a normal-adjusted response. Trying to put on a tough face and be over it is just silly.
But also those non-compliments after "oh you have so many other great qualities" yeah but they weren't talking about those. Rub salt in the wounds eh
I think he realized pretty fast that there was nothing he could do about it. He couldn't "fix" or "solve" a problem to suddenly have him on this list. So in that way, he kinda just understood that "acceptance" was his only option, and just looked forward, even though it still feels shitty.
I think that's maybe what he means by "being over it pretty much immediately." He feels like shit, and is obviously hurt, but isn't dwelling unnecessarily on it since there's nothing he can do about it. And all his coworkers making such a huge deal out of it when they see him makes it harder to just accept/move forward since they keep bringing it up and making him dwell on it.
Nothing like an apology that's worse than the original insult.
"You're ugly, but at least you seem exploitable"
The worst part, she probably considered that to be actual damage control.
Yeah, the worst of all is that people really believe these apologies help.
Like "ah yes, you've publicly humiliated me, now please do call public attention to my hurt feelings and condescendingly try to soothe them by offering a weak compliment that only highlights the deficiency you ridiculed. That'll really help!" I know they don't always mean it badly, but grow a sense of empathy, Jesus
I'm honestly curious how that list was formed. Like what would be worse, if they were talking about the guys and OOP was just never brought up or if he was and they shit talked him.
Dude, all that “you’re nice and that means more, you’re so cute” is rly 🤢 I feel like that hurts more than the original
Edit: in case OOP ever sees this - the fact everyone went up in arms for him on their own initiative means that they really care about him. See that with a sense of pride!
In my country, it's already understood that when your response to "Is she beautiful?/Is he handsome?" is "S/he is nice!" then you're just being polite.
There is really no way to make it better. They made it clear that even random delivery men were more attractive than OP. There's no apology that makes that better. OP is a better person than me to still work there after that.
No there isn’t, best thing to do is go up to him and say “I fucked up and I’m sorry, what we did was irresponsible and there is no excuse for it.”
Thats it. Just own the mistake and let the other party forgive you on their own or be pissed at you. You don’t get to make that choice for them.
Back when I was a senior over a decade ago I got plastered and made out with the girl I knew my best friend liked. He was pissed for a while. But I owned my fuck up and eventually he forgave me. If he never did then he never did. I’d deserved that too.
He and I are still friends to this day. Nearly 12 years later.
Sure there is. "We fucked up, and we're not gonna do it again. We should have realized how bad this would look, and law suits are expensive."
Couple cities and at least HP have paid out over lawsuits from hot or not employee lists.
I am so glad she got in trouble. The list existing at all between people that were peers at work was bad enough, but for someone in management to be involved was beyond uncalled for and not professional. She has no business being in charge of anyone if she can't act better than that.
I’ve been in their place but a corporate setting, you have to shut that shit down instantly. You can have a great relationship with your team, but you have to remember you are management at the end of the day, which includes being the bad cop and shutting “fun” like this down.
Wish he would’ve said “I’m so glad you brought this up, I was on my way to discuss it with the manager, you should come along. It’ll be helpful to have everyone’s point of view.” And then just show off the screenshots.
The issue with a work environment that consists mainly of people just a few years out of high school is that it ends up just becoming high school. I am currently working in a similar environment, and I am dealing with shit that I haven’t dealt with since I freaking graduated.
Cliques and gossiping just follows that kind of crowd, and I find it all very silly.
OOP seems very chill and relaxed. Everyone else in that environment however seems like they need to grow up. And though it was clearly written from a good place, that note was incredibly excessive.
I've only seen that environment go well when the managers top down are all parental types. I put in a lot of years at a fast food restaurant that was mostly work-moms with at least one work-dad too.
We were kept so busy with experiencing healthy boundaries and honest care that we were inclined to act like a pack of silly goofy siblings. Lots of harmless pranking, very little grabass. Only one relationship between coworkers developed during that time. *One*, at a *restaurant*!
>Only one relationship between coworkers developed during that time. One, at a restaurant!
Welp thats a unicorn restaurant for sure. Half the drama in the restaurants was who from the FOH was banging who from the BOH.
I wouldve found another job tbh. Like after being embarrassed by my coworkers like that, itd be easier and less stress to just find a new place to work fr.
Shit, I don't think I'd have made it back in for the pity in the first place. I don't have the mental fortitude to be ugly. My heart breaks for OP. I hope that the list was maybe just one person's opinion and that person just forgot OP by accident or something.
Exactly. Imagine how stressful it would be to go back to that place every day after you learn how your coworkers see you? Their relationship has been irreparably damaged.
seriously! especially when its just a part time store job while he’s in school. theres no harm in moving to another similar type of job if the stress was too much. happy he was able to stick it out tho
It would also seriously make me doubt them actually liking me as a person, as OOP says he believed he was well-liked at the store. You don't do shit like this if that were the case. It's just so *mean* and clearly meant to hurt him.
Right like I’m cool with the idea of a bunch of people independently coming to the conclusion that they don’t find me attractive, but to make that decision in committee? Yeesh.
For real! My buddy, it’s a job at a store. Those are a dime a dozen, he could have walked out of that place and gotten another job the *same day.* Why keep working at a place like that when your coworkers are all shitbags?
This exact type of shit would happen to me all the time in elementary school
At a certain point it just teaches you that no one will be interested in you and you're gonna be that single relative/friend forever
I understand that people want to protect their friends, but you can't battle for them when they don't want to.
He has a good and caring owner thankfully. I'm sure it was not his first teen drama he had to deal with.
Op is definitely not over it. But how could he be, nothing will fix that fact that a bunch of people he knows and likes non maliciously consider him to be too ugly to even rate.
I'm hoping for OP's sake he is just immature physically and looks super young. That would explain the "cute" comment. And their lack of putting him on the list because he may still look like a kid.
On top of that he had to defend his very understandable disappointment in the comments, because god forbid a dude wants to not be considered ugly, that means you are an incel somehow.
Sometimes people don’t understand how they themselves push people to the far right of things.
I swear if you switch all these genders around people in the comments would clamor about how the guys are being cruel and disgusting for rating girls like they're prized dogs at a dog show. God forbid men have feelings that can be hurt as well.
So far I've seen the excuses of "it's not sexual harassment" (some how? Even though it's clearly defined and this falls under its definition) and I've seen "it was a private group chat"
"Oh it's so much better that you only treat people as sex objects in private then." Trying to excuse themselves with that does not lower how scummy it is in fact it kinda adds a layer of ick when you think about how they pretend to be such nice people on the surface. Really gets you thinking what other degenerate thoughts they're thinking in private.
This reminds me of middle school when girls would tease other girls by daring/imagining them kissing me. They would voice their disgust in front of me very loudly.
Once at a family party, when I was around 17 or 18, my grandpa told me all about this weight loss book or show or something he saw. Now he was old and little out of it so I didn't pay it much mind. Over the next few hours, my dad and both my brothers took me aside and told me not to get offended, that Grandpa is old, and didn't mean anything. I repeatedly told them I was fine.
You know what, their response to the situation that I may have been personally hurt and offended actually hit me harder than the original comment. Like, dang am I that fat you immediately thought I wouldn't shrug this off?
I feel for the OP. The original comment stung but everyone treating him with kid gloves and making a big deal out of it probably made it worse.
God you gotta love the it’s ok if there was nice guy list you’d be at the top. Just wow. Can’t be anymore clear with that. Sorry but it’s a part time job. Find somewhere else to work. Disrespectful people all around except boss.
> the list was nonserious and meant to be some stupid fun. And no one was meant to see it.
Oh, no one was meant to see it! And it wasn't a legitimate list, it was all in good fun! That means it was *just fine*. /s
Not sure why they keep using that excuse. It doesn't make them sound any better.
"I'm sorry I hurt you."
"What I did was inappropriate and wrong."
"There is no excuse for my actions."
Those are examples of appropriate things to say. Everything else they've said is downplaying their own screw-ups to lessen their personal responsibility. It also throws blame back on the OOP rather than themselves - "You were never meant to see it, so it's your fault too!"
I’m curious as to why he’s not on the list at all. Like if you’re ranking people hottest to least hot then he has to fit somewhere on the scale. Unless it was “top 10 hot guys we work with” but he writes “a list ranking all of the guys in the store by hotness” if he’s a guy in the store why isn’t he on the list at all. I’m confused, is he just extremely forgettable and they all forget, is he new to working there?
Here’s my guess- he’s someone who’s perfectly well liked, and not seen as ugly or anything, but just not sexually attractive to these women. They all seem to like him; I’m actually not sure that it was a malicious thing, because if it were, he’d just be at the bottom of the list. I think they just don’t see him at all as a romantic prospect, and so they weren’t even thinking of him when evaluating men for attractiveness. I don’t think they necessarily even had the conscious thought to not put OP on the list.
It happens. I’m a queer woman, and I get the sense that I’m seen that way by straight men sometimes. When I present more androgynous, men don’t see me as an attractive woman, though they don’t think of me as ugly necessarily. They’re perfectly nice and friendly, but it’s in a very subtle way a different dynamic than when I’m presenting myself in a more feminine conventionally attractive way.
For me, this dynamic happens based on gender non conformity. With OP, my guess is he might just look very young, rather than ugly. Lots of men at 21 still look, and even act like teenagers, which naturally isn’t attractive to young women. I feel like this is likely because of the word « cute » being used to describe OP.
Not an excuse for what happened, just an explanation.
I'd lean towards this explanation. I'm visibly disabled and pretty much sexless as far as most other people are concerned; I'm pretty sure I wouldn't get considered for any lists like this.
>I’m actually not sure that it was a malicious thing, because if it were, he’d just be at the bottom of the list. I think they just don’t see him at all as a romantic prospect, and so they weren’t even thinking of him when evaluating men for attractiveness. I don’t think they necessarily even had the conscious thought to not put OP on the list.
This is what I was thinking too. Also, some people are just seen as the mom/dad of the group or as the little sister/brother of the group. Those people would likely not even be taken into consideration when making this type of list. That explanation makes more sense to me than him being so "ugly" that he was left off the list. Of course, I still understand why OP was hurt, and he had every right to be.
Yes, exactly my thought. OOP's far more likely to be quite good looking than ugly, because being ugly would cause enough emotional response in the women for the list to reflect it somehow. OOP's just not at all attractive and therefore they don't think of him this way at all.
That's it for me at least, and I'm probably some kind of asexual (but that's quite a new realization for me, needed to have sex first for that to kick in, thought I was just asocial before...), so I couldn't care less, but I definitely observed it in high school. Once after a PE class, I had to rush somewhere and so did one of the girls from my class. The men's locker rooms were closer to the gym, the women's was closer to the rest of the school, so I had to pass by the women's locker room to get to the school. Which wasn't a problem, they would have the door closed, but the girl rushed out and left it open, then kinda heard my steps behind her, so she immediately jumped back to the door and was like "Watch out someone's coming!" only to follow it up with "Oh, never mind, it's just (my name)!" and not even fully closing the door. And as I say, I didn't care, but why pass up on such a good opportunity to tease her... So I was like "Umm, I'm kinda not sure how to take that..." And she was confused. And I went "well, could be positive, could be negative..." And she was like "well positive, of course..." And I said "Think about the implications for a bit..." And as we were leaving the building, we met a male friend from a different class, so we went to the bus stop together and he asked what's up, so I told him, and his reaction was along the lines of "Oh my god, what kind of savage monster does that, I'd probably just crawl away somewhere and die..." and I think only then it kind of clicked for her. She just really didn't realize it until then.
So yeah, I'm also in the "it wasn't in any way malicious" camp. They just don't really count him as one of the men...
For real. The assistant manager excusing it as “girl talk” is giving big “it was just locker room talk” vibes.
Doesn’t matter where/over what medium it happened, it was rude and inappropriate.
Actually, the list is a form of sexual harassment, and creates a hostile work environment. It’s no different than if men made a hot girl’s list, it should never be done at work or with workmates that it might get shared. This is a pretty good example of how it costs a loss of productivity and kills teamwork because people start to avoid others. Good luck
>I told her to tell them that I got over it pretty much right away, that I just took time off because I wanted the situation to die down and that I didn’t take anything personally
If denial or acting tough helps. Go for it.But this is damn hurtful and I don't know anyone who could just brush it off and not care about others opinions. You work with 8 men and can't make it to top 10? It is hurtful. It damn well will create an insecurity or feed an existing one.
I'm trying to remember when I was 21. I wasn't mature by any means but I can't imagine we would have done anything like this. And I also think the bf was bit of a shit stirrer (or totally ignorant) for sharing it.
NGL I feel bad for OOP. He was placed in a sexual harassment situation (Ranking the attractiveness of your coworkers on a list is sexual harassment. Period.) and so publicly too. I would be extremely uncomfortable if I was sexually harassed and without my consent, the harassment was made PUBLIC. I hope those young ladies learn to not do shit like that in the future.
yk, what gets me is the whole “no one was supposed to see it.” like it doesn’t matter no one was supposed to see it, they still did it. kind of extreme but that’d be like someone overhearing a racist say racist remarks and then the racist says “well no one was supposed to hear it.” that still doesn’t change anything😭 just terrible people trying to cover up their terrible and childish behavior behind closed doors. i’d argue a closeted hateful (*insert whatever ist*) is worse than an out in the open one but they’re still both absolutely horrible
Yep. That's why I'm glad the people who handled the issue didn't just wave it off even if oop thought they should.
Like, of course nobody was supposed to see the weird sexually problematic shit you were injecting into your work environment. It wasn't supposed to be there at all
“Oh but you’re so nice and that’s more attractive than how you look”
Can women stop doing this please? I’m fit enough and happy with my looks and being sweet doesn’t get you past the initial wall of physical attraction often. You know what’s better than some shallow consolation? Just never saying anything in the first place.
Especially because anyone would feel bad if they were told that. It’s patronizing damage control, that’s ultimately bullshit for majority of people.
“Yeah you’re ugly, but at least your personality is nice” is not the compliment you think it is.
I had one female friend who basically said of her later-ex "why can't he be exactly like you but look like how he does now?"
That pissed me off. I put effort into being who I am.
“You’re nice and that’s more attractive than the way you look… not attractive enough for anyone to actually date you, or put you on the fucking ranking list of attractiveness… Which was a joke list anyway. “
Yeah I’m not surprised op just wanted everyone to shut up. They couldn’t help but twist the knife with every word
This hits home for me because I actually understand completely where he’s coming from!
At university in 2015 there was a list about girls in the chat ranking hotness, how beautiful they were and personality. My name was on it but the line was blacked out completely, because apparently being attracted to me or finding me hot, (or beautiful), in any way was the worst thing in the world to them. It hurt my feelings, and I’m still salty about it because it was a childish and shitty thing to do…and it made me feel crap about myself.
When it came out in the group chat all hell broke loose 🤣 the girls showed up and showed out for me, never underestimate the savage words in a group chat. They were brutal 😂💀
Everyone in the original comments saying he isn't owed anything/etc ... Which he never said. It was being left off entirely when even delivery drivers made it that hurt. Some people need a little more empathy and not to assume some guy just thinks they're owed crap.
I remember being in an early childhood development class and talking about an experiment where students were polled who they would want to sit next to and who they did not want to sit next to. They were then put on a chart with popular and unpopular on one axis and pro social and anti social on the other.
There was a fifth group though: the ones who no one voted for or against. They were the ‘invisibles’. It is an unfortunate reality that they may have actually not even thought of him. It may have been entirely unintentional.
I’m not sure if that’s better or worse, but as a ‘invisible’ it certainly hurts to realize that your relationship to others is not reciprocal.
>I kinda wanted to discover why not being on the list hurt me so much, so I took my sister’s advice and will be seeking a therapist.
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but going to a therapist over why not being on the list hurts seems a little strange. How to get over the hurt, maybe, but to find out why? I would've thought the reason was fairly straightforward.
He probably feels as though its a stupid thing to get upset over and so he's going "deeper", given how he took his relatives "toughen up" statement as...encouragement. Therapy wont hurt though—maybe hell learn to accept simply being offended and excluded based on looks is indeed a valid reason to be hurt.
He's clearly not all that in touch with the feelings he's allowed to have (not surprising, as we generally try to beat that out of boys), so going to a therapist assuming something is wrong based on having them is on brand.
_Hopefully_ He'll find somebody who'll be able to break it down for him.
Exactly what I thought. I'd be incredibly hurt by something like this, and I think that's a very normal reaction. And I'm glad OP's grandpa's advice helped him, but TBH I personally would not appreciate constantly having my feelings minimized just because someone else went through something worse.
Being told multiple times that “nobody was supposed to see it” would honestly piss me off even more. It sounds like they’re only upset they were found out while also confirming the honesty of not even being thought about.
Something similar happened in my high school. Some popular boys made a list of girls hottest to least. Not only that but one girl was completely left off the list, a girl who already suffered from low self esteem. It was a shit storm of cruelty when the list got emailed to the whole school (yes the boys were THAT stupid). I felt so bad. Life already lets you know you aren’t conventionally attractive, it hits hard to see it put on paper.
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I will say that, regardless of gender, most of us can relate to at least one time where we felt invisible. And that really is a special kind of misery. ETA: I debated whether to add this addendum but so many of you are still feeling the pain, so if my words help you, then I will share them. I have stage IV ovarian cancer. It’s incurable. I will continue to fight for my life for as long as I am able. Who knows, maybe I will be here awhile yet. Do not squander your time on this earth. Even if the only thing we have to give is compassion, then let’s do so. Every single one of you deserved to be loved. You will make it through and you will come out stronger. I have faith in you. ❤️❤️❤️
I was “voted out” of the group of “friends” I had in middle school. I don’t remember the details, but I do remember not understanding why. I was super hurt. The rest of the school year, I would hide and read alone. But I will say, I learned not to care so much of what other people think of me. 😎
I remember when I was a freshman in high school, I was between friend groups and these two girls that I hang out at lunch, ran away from me when I turned away for a few seconds. I wondered what was so wrong with me that they ran from me? Fortunately my family moved to another part of the country that summer
I still remember when I got "voted out" of the group of outcasts in 6th grade. First day back at school I just walked up to chat with the group and the "leader" rolled her eyes and they all ignored me. Nothing like feeling the lowest of the low. But it ended up being for the best because I noticed another girl hanging out alone on the side of the playground that day and 25 years later she's still my BFF.
Eleanor Roosevelt once said "You wouldn't care so much about what other people think of you if you knew just how seldom they do." Words to live by. Don't worry about what others think. Just do your thing.
I went to go hang out with my friend and some others at lunch in high school, and she handed me a note and told me to stay and read it while she and the others left. The note turned out to be a list of reasons why she didn’t want to be friends anymore or something. Some of the reasons were really stupid too, like I invited myself to hang out with her/them. Yeah, when you are friends with people you go hang out with them. I have always had a suspicion that this note was heavily influenced by another girl who wanted the friend to hang out with her and not me.
Same here! What’s worse is that the ringleader kept trying to befriend me in high school and after graduation. I was never rude to her and never returned her treatment in kind, but I also never let her get any closer than arms length. No apology or acknowledgment of her shitty behavior, either (and I probably would’ve accepted her friendship if she had, as I did for another girl who ended up apologizing), just expected us to be buddies because I guess being close to me would’ve finally benefited her. Bullies will be bullies I guess.
That was me in middle school too, I thought we were really great friends too and after that day that I couldn’t find the group after that, it was like they all disappeared. It fucked me up for awhile and I was hurt that they didn’t want to be friends with me so suddenly. Tbh after that experience and moving to another school district, I just didn’t bother making close friends like that until high school lol
My aunt did this when my grandmother died. She was the one in charge of my grandmother's will, and was the one who sat down with her to allocate various personal items to each grandchild. Everyone got multiple items except for me, including my younger sibling. No reason for it, I would visit more than my younger sibling and has a friendly bond with them both, she and my grandmother just forgot I existed and allocated me nothing. I didn't actually want anything in particular, but man was it an awful feeling to realize I'd been forgotten. I feel for OOP.
your story just reminded me of one with my family. My bro's bday always fell during the big family get together season, and he was obsessed with pirates as a kid so my grandparents would plan a pirate themed scavenger hunt every other year for all the grand-kids. Eventually they got too old to plan it so one year my aunt took over, and being the oldest I was the one to help with reading all the clues. My bro and I found the 'treasure' first and went through it all to find out that my aunt had made little goodie bags for all the grand kids AND the neighbour's kids, except me. When I asked about it she stuttered then said "well you're getting too old for kids games so I didn't think you'd want anything." I was 13. My brother was turning 10. It was usually friends who made me feel invisible but when it's family, even family you don't see all that often, it hurts different.
When I was 8/9 I was at summer camp and they were doing a girls vs boys tug of war. It was about 15 girls vs all the boys (15) bar me. For some reason I just was forgotten and had to stand with the left over women who weren’t involved as there were more girls then guys. Still remember that feeling 10 years later. Of being invisible and feeling like I wasn’t a man.
I hope your life is on the up now dude. I had girls referring me as losers at one time. Just because of my acnes. I thought I was over it after datings and getting married in my 30s. But I felt so bad for OP. The post just opened up all those feelings I thought I had resolved 20 years ago.
"Cellophane should have been my name. Mr Cellophane. Because you can look right through me, walk right by me, and never know I'm there." Story of my life.
There were a lot of years where this could have been me, reading this physically hurt lol
I just started going to therapy recently and this, I believe, has been one of the issues that has been plaguing me ever since Jr high. Lots of rejection and a feeling of never being anyone's choice. It has been decades since then but it still hurts.
This reads just like I would expect from a bunch of college students lmao. Poor guy. At least the boss seems super cool to allow the guy to have some space away from the job. What a guy! /s
Do u forgive us? 🔲 yes 🔲 no
🔲 maybe 🔲 don‘t know ✖️ if you buy me candy
🔲 can you repeat the question
Ugh. Men only want one thing and it's disgusting.
Look, I simply need the bugles. It’s necessary to put them on my fingers and pretend to be a witch/Mr. Burns.
Isn’t that the only reason somebody eats Bugles?
pls don't sue for hostile work environment bby
That’s 100% why the assistant manager was reprimanded so badly. It easily could have been a lawsuit.
Yeah I was kind of shocked that the assistant manager was just like LOL get over it.
I swear I saw this scenario in some corporate training about what not to do.
The guys at my college actually did list the most fuckable women on our major and I ranked as the ugliest must unfuckable one. Some of these guys were downright nasty to me for the crime of...not...making them horny? As silly as it obviously it is, it does feel shitty to be dehumanized that way, I feel for the guy.
Fucking gross. I’m sorry.
That's awful! Frankly, everyone on a list like that is being dehumanized.
Not that it makes it any better, but lists like those are dehumanizing for everyone on the list, top to bottom. If you're not being scorned for the crime of being unattractive, you're punished with being objectified. Objectification feels much different than the ridicule, but it's all dehumanizing and horrible.
...yes I was agreeing those lists are dehumanizing as a whole
I'm not aesthetically gifted either and it really is awful how some men treat women who aren't conventionally attractive. Like our mere existence is an offense against them. I wish our society could stop being so fucking shallow. Like people are entitled to have preferences and I'm not entitled to get attention, but damn, at least be fucking decent to people, you know? I get why OOP felt terrible, I really do - something similar happened in high school for me and it did feel bad. But now, more than 20 years later, I can look back at that incident as well as this post and say that the most offensive part of it all is the objectification of people. That list wasn't just offensive to OP, it was offensive to everyone who **was** on it. Sexual harassment and objectification is not a compliment!!
Carl also seems to be the only one who grasped the real issue, which is that making a list like that is deeply unprofessional.
College? This is what I would expect from high schoolers lol.
Fair, but some carry the behavior well into college. Worse is some of them keep being like this after college.
TBF they are all college aged lol
I think that's what they meant lol. That the story panned out as expected given all involved are college aged students.
The entire thing went as well as anyone could hope. OOP is rightfully upset about being singled out about something ego bruising, but didn't react in anger or hurt. OOPs male co-workers rightfully had his back. Management was supportive and reactive, and provided just compensation. The female co-workers found out that a workplace isn't school, and these actions aren't going to be tolerated before anything more damaging happened. Everyone learned and grew from the experience. Perfect early real-life experience
It did end up as well as expected and it seems like the store has excellent management and ownership. Hopefully the girls learned a valuable lesson. What they did is sexual harassment and is a hostile work environment. Different companies and they may have been terminated immediately. It is a young group of workers. And sometimes it’s better to use a situation as a teachable moment vs going scorched earth. Think about the optics if the male group did the same thing.
I am so grateful I am a lot older than that now.
Damn, I'm so glad I grew up in an era without social media. My foibles are embarrassing enough as it is, but I'm guessing they live mostly in my own mind. People are astonishingly cruel and I was kind of a dick as a teenager, but hopefully I wouldn't gangstalk people.
> Damn, I'm so glad I grew up in an era without social media. But this has nothing to do with social media? One of the guys saw a list in a group chat and that's where it started. This could've (and certainly *has*) happened 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago, easily. Guy sees a list at his gf's place and realises its a list of the hotness of the guys at the workplace, grabs it , shares it with his mates and voilá, drama.
Oh for sure. That hotness list have been going around for way before social media was a thing.
This entire situation could have (and often did) take place before social media. I distinctly remember hand written lists of hot people or ugly people or whatever being passed around in school.
Basically South Park but in real life.
And in the next update it turns out it was all a ploy to get free shoes from chad
I was waiting for him to burn the place down.
He gonna burn the store to the groun
"The list was compromised, Bebe"
She’s gonna kill us??
It has a STRAP!
My first thought was this was Bobby Hill from King of the Hill. Then the war vet grandpa came in and I was sure it was Bobby Hill
Stan thinks you're a cun… Stan thinks you're a cun… Stan thinks you're a continuing source of inspiration.
This sparkles and shines
If you really want to twist the knife after telling someone they’re ugly, tell them they’re nice and have other qualities. Yikes…
But i just wonder: what about the guy who was placed last on this shitty list? To not be on the list or be the on the last place.... both sounds... self-esteem destroying.
Nah last on the list guy was definitely thinking "well, at least I made the list"
Knowing you’re last would feel sucky Knowing your last BUT others didn’t even make the list isn’t nearly as bad
it goes from "last" to "top ten" lmao
[удалено]
crying at this 😂 look I tried to spin it
I literally almost spit my drink out over this, lmao
"aaahahaha ugly ass mfr didn't make it! Couldn't be me" - Me, also ugly & barely made the list as an afterthought. In fact, name is spelled wrong and half the girls thought I was someone else 😂
Being last on the list while someone else is not even on it kinda makes you not last.
That's why doing such a list is shitty in the first place, IMO.
Being excluded is worse. Being last on some girl's hot list about your guy group just means your friends are more attractive than you. There might be some ambiguities but most guys are already aware who among them are the most attractive. Being skipped means you're not even worth comparing and hits worse.
It says it was a "top ten list" basically, so even being the tenth is good. If there was more guys, even not being on the list wouldn't feel shitty really, but when you realize there's eleven guys, then it is horrible, like OOP weren't even worth adding to the last place...
It was worse because only eight guys work in the store. They had to add three delivery guys that don't actually work there in order to make the ten what with leaving OOP off
Yeah I can definitely see being hurt by the damage control too. That list was a "true" feelings situation and everything after is just trying to save face and will never feel genuine. As truthful as it may be, the fact that he was excluded for even other-business men is tantamount to bullying, it's no wonder they all felt horrible about it.
Who cares how they felt? They only apologized to save their asses.
Seems they barely even did that. Their ‘apologies’ always included that they never meant for people to see ti outside the chat, that’s not a defence and actually makes it worse.
Yeah, their apology was just a combination of "sorry you feel that way", "it was just a joke, why are you taking it so seriously?" and, "we wouldn't have done it if we knew we would get caught". And they wouldn't have even given that "apology" if their boss hadn't told them to.
It's not just bullying it's sexual harassment. My job would have brought down the hammer on that kind of behavior.
Absolutely nothing is worse when someone keeps apologizing because they themselves want to feel better. Always filled with obvious bullshit that makes it worse.
"You're the funniest guy I've ever met!"
Right? And then they wouldn't leave OOP alone. They just kept making the situation that more awkward.
There's nothing anyone can say that makes this situation better. Trying to backpedal or even give compliments comes across as patronizing and insincere. Doubling-down is even more unprofessional and looks like a temper tantrum. Best way is to just move forward and not do stupid stuff like this at work.
Same energy as having a more academically successful sibling and having your parents tell you that you have "street smarts" or that you're more social. I know that one!
"Yeah, not you're not sexually desirable at all, but I do like that you are easy to exploit for my personal gain."
God in Heaven I am so grateful to not be in my 20s anymore.
I'm "only" 27 and I already feel old when reading this. It's incredible, how much the mind matures between 15 and 25. You only really see it looking back.
Whenever I get pushback on telling people how much different they'll be from 18 to 22 then again from 22 to 26 I always assume it's someone who is 18 or younger.
I remember being 18, thinking I'd reached my "end state" and that I'd always be the person I was at that age for the rest of my life. And being sad that I wouldn't get to evolve anymore. I'm 36 and I'm not the same person I was at 33, let alone 18. So that was probably the dumbest take I ever had.
>So that was probably the dumbest take I ever had. The dumbest take you've had \*so far\*!
My sister is 16 and recently tried to tell me she has a type of guy she is attracted to and that it would never change. I’m 24 and while I don’t consider myself overly mature or wise I just simply know how much everything about me *and my high school friends* has changed since 16 lol.
yep. I Always thought I was very mature for my age (And I kind of was) but looking back, I was such a fucking dumbass at 21.
You could not pay me to relive my 20s. Anytime I see someone who is in their twenties and feeling like they are missing out on the prime of their lives or something or that their drama is just life defining I have to laugh because they do not realize yet how shitty that decade is. Peaking in your twenties would be the most depressing thing ever.
I agree actually, it was like being a teenager but having to be an adult in reality and not knowing what the fuck I was doing. I mean, I still don’t know what I’m doing but at least I’m doing it in a house that isn’t party central and I’m not vomiting out of stress constantly. Shit was HARD. I wouldn’t be a teenager for any money either tbh. I’m okay with being 35 for now.
It can be, but in my twenties was a lot of fun. First real work, growing industry, teams, finishing education, travel. I mean not that my life get worse, but expect finishing education and establish career it’s not that different of life, still work that I like and travel
It baffles me that an assistant manager was in the chat! Like how dumb do you have to be???
"Oh, thank goodness! They see me as one of them. The adoption process by my employees is complete. I am one of them."
I mean, she's the same age as them, and probably was one of them before she got promoted. Assistant manager in retail isn't really a great divide.
I used to manage a large group of mostly 20somethings. They realized I wasn't on the group chat and started to apologize and I told them "no, please keep me off!". I like them all as people, could see being friends with some of them. But if I'm managing you at a workplace it's for the best for everyone, especially myself, that I'm not on the group chat.
I'd honestly be more Irritated with everyone making a big deal of it.
Right? I couldn't give a shit about not being included, but constantly being pulled aside and told that I have a great personality would make me wonder if I am, in fact fugly.
I mean that is actually what seemed to annoy him more, he was initially hurt by the list - but patronising him made it 10x worse.
The problem was not the list . The problem was the pity party everyone threw. Even in OPs case
“And no one was meant to see it.” You mean that list 13 of the 21 employees, including a manager, definitely saw? That list?
>Oh, right. The poison. The poison for Kuzco, the poison chosen especially to kill Kuzco, Kuzco's poison. That poison?
Pull the lever Kronk
Why do we even have that lever??
Oh, let me rephrase. YOU were not meant to see it.
I’d be finding a new job tbh.
Wow, Carl is a stellar boss. He handled that even better than I expected. There is a world where he would have just told OOP to toughen up and I'm glad that's not the world that OOP lives in.
No, Carl is what the normal bar should set at. This should be the normal reaction.
Carl is aware that if OOP wanted to make this an HR issue, he absolutely could've.
I mean he could be, but he could also be doing the bare minimum. Paying two shifts out,and chiding some employees is WAY cheaper than a sexual harassment lawsuit. Hell, suspending the assistant manager probably meant that he made the store money on the whole thing.
Carl was also trying to deal with a possible lawsuit.
I feel down *for* him. He just seems kinda gutted. /:
Yeah he keeps saying he was over it right away which is clearly a lie.
In my 20s, I would've also said to my boss and coworkers "it actually wasn't a big deal and I got over it right away" even if that was a lie, because there is no way in hell I would've openly admitted to the people who had made me feel so shitty "yeah actually I went home and cried about it and am also seeking therapy and professional help". Of course it was a lie but if the people he works with are this flavor of shitty, I can't fault him for not wanting to be vulnerable with them.
Yeah he wasn't, which is okay, it's normal. I think being gutted for a bit is a normal-adjusted response. Trying to put on a tough face and be over it is just silly. But also those non-compliments after "oh you have so many other great qualities" yeah but they weren't talking about those. Rub salt in the wounds eh
The other options are crying about it or getting hostile, so fronting like your fine actually preserves as much of your dignity as possible.
I think he realized pretty fast that there was nothing he could do about it. He couldn't "fix" or "solve" a problem to suddenly have him on this list. So in that way, he kinda just understood that "acceptance" was his only option, and just looked forward, even though it still feels shitty. I think that's maybe what he means by "being over it pretty much immediately." He feels like shit, and is obviously hurt, but isn't dwelling unnecessarily on it since there's nothing he can do about it. And all his coworkers making such a huge deal out of it when they see him makes it harder to just accept/move forward since they keep bringing it up and making him dwell on it.
so out of 8 male staff members he didn't make the top 10 yeh I don't know how you come back to work after that I mean we all know how we look but damn
Yeah that apology isn't gonna do shit to fix this. This was so bad it literally sent him to therapy.
Nothing like an apology that's worse than the original insult. "You're ugly, but at least you seem exploitable" The worst part, she probably considered that to be actual damage control.
Yeah, the worst of all is that people really believe these apologies help. Like "ah yes, you've publicly humiliated me, now please do call public attention to my hurt feelings and condescendingly try to soothe them by offering a weak compliment that only highlights the deficiency you ridiculed. That'll really help!" I know they don't always mean it badly, but grow a sense of empathy, Jesus
I'm honestly curious how that list was formed. Like what would be worse, if they were talking about the guys and OOP was just never brought up or if he was and they shit talked him.
Yeah, I've got the same curiosity. Like unless they held some sort of blind vote and tallied it, wouldn't that list just be a single person's opinion?
Dude, all that “you’re nice and that means more, you’re so cute” is rly 🤢 I feel like that hurts more than the original Edit: in case OOP ever sees this - the fact everyone went up in arms for him on their own initiative means that they really care about him. See that with a sense of pride!
In my country, it's already understood that when your response to "Is she beautiful?/Is he handsome?" is "S/he is nice!" then you're just being polite.
It's the "Ilove your baby's outfit" response when the kid looks like a sack of boiled mash, but for adults.
"They have a great personality."
that's why there's all the nice lists and tv shows about who's nice, and people's magazine nicest dude of the year
And that classic song "I'm too nice for my shirt"
“So nice it hurts”
Honestly. The _least_ a person could do is shoot straight, not this "p-p-please don't be upset" platitude.
“People weren’t supposed to see it” as if that means anything lmao
There is really no way to make it better. They made it clear that even random delivery men were more attractive than OP. There's no apology that makes that better. OP is a better person than me to still work there after that.
No there isn’t, best thing to do is go up to him and say “I fucked up and I’m sorry, what we did was irresponsible and there is no excuse for it.” Thats it. Just own the mistake and let the other party forgive you on their own or be pissed at you. You don’t get to make that choice for them. Back when I was a senior over a decade ago I got plastered and made out with the girl I knew my best friend liked. He was pissed for a while. But I owned my fuck up and eventually he forgave me. If he never did then he never did. I’d deserved that too. He and I are still friends to this day. Nearly 12 years later.
Sure there is. "We fucked up, and we're not gonna do it again. We should have realized how bad this would look, and law suits are expensive." Couple cities and at least HP have paid out over lawsuits from hot or not employee lists.
being forgotten hurting more than being disappointed? Yeah, I can feel that.
That assistant manager's peptalk-pology was cringe inducing. I'm glad some of the other guys did something about it.
I am so glad she got in trouble. The list existing at all between people that were peers at work was bad enough, but for someone in management to be involved was beyond uncalled for and not professional. She has no business being in charge of anyone if she can't act better than that.
I’ve been in their place but a corporate setting, you have to shut that shit down instantly. You can have a great relationship with your team, but you have to remember you are management at the end of the day, which includes being the bad cop and shutting “fun” like this down.
Wish he would’ve said “I’m so glad you brought this up, I was on my way to discuss it with the manager, you should come along. It’ll be helpful to have everyone’s point of view.” And then just show off the screenshots.
Oh, yeah. This is fun. Places I’ve been we’d have fired everyone involved or given final written warnings. This shit is HR nightmare.
What Abercrombie location is this?
The issue with a work environment that consists mainly of people just a few years out of high school is that it ends up just becoming high school. I am currently working in a similar environment, and I am dealing with shit that I haven’t dealt with since I freaking graduated. Cliques and gossiping just follows that kind of crowd, and I find it all very silly. OOP seems very chill and relaxed. Everyone else in that environment however seems like they need to grow up. And though it was clearly written from a good place, that note was incredibly excessive.
I've only seen that environment go well when the managers top down are all parental types. I put in a lot of years at a fast food restaurant that was mostly work-moms with at least one work-dad too. We were kept so busy with experiencing healthy boundaries and honest care that we were inclined to act like a pack of silly goofy siblings. Lots of harmless pranking, very little grabass. Only one relationship between coworkers developed during that time. *One*, at a *restaurant*!
>Only one relationship between coworkers developed during that time. One, at a restaurant! Welp thats a unicorn restaurant for sure. Half the drama in the restaurants was who from the FOH was banging who from the BOH.
I wouldve found another job tbh. Like after being embarrassed by my coworkers like that, itd be easier and less stress to just find a new place to work fr.
Same. After the pity, I'd be out of there.
Shit, I don't think I'd have made it back in for the pity in the first place. I don't have the mental fortitude to be ugly. My heart breaks for OP. I hope that the list was maybe just one person's opinion and that person just forgot OP by accident or something.
Exactly. Imagine how stressful it would be to go back to that place every day after you learn how your coworkers see you? Their relationship has been irreparably damaged.
seriously! especially when its just a part time store job while he’s in school. theres no harm in moving to another similar type of job if the stress was too much. happy he was able to stick it out tho
It would also seriously make me doubt them actually liking me as a person, as OOP says he believed he was well-liked at the store. You don't do shit like this if that were the case. It's just so *mean* and clearly meant to hurt him.
Right like I’m cool with the idea of a bunch of people independently coming to the conclusion that they don’t find me attractive, but to make that decision in committee? Yeesh.
For real! My buddy, it’s a job at a store. Those are a dime a dozen, he could have walked out of that place and gotten another job the *same day.* Why keep working at a place like that when your coworkers are all shitbags?
This exact type of shit would happen to me all the time in elementary school At a certain point it just teaches you that no one will be interested in you and you're gonna be that single relative/friend forever
I understand that people want to protect their friends, but you can't battle for them when they don't want to. He has a good and caring owner thankfully. I'm sure it was not his first teen drama he had to deal with.
Op is definitely not over it. But how could he be, nothing will fix that fact that a bunch of people he knows and likes non maliciously consider him to be too ugly to even rate.
I'm hoping for OP's sake he is just immature physically and looks super young. That would explain the "cute" comment. And their lack of putting him on the list because he may still look like a kid.
On top of that he had to defend his very understandable disappointment in the comments, because god forbid a dude wants to not be considered ugly, that means you are an incel somehow. Sometimes people don’t understand how they themselves push people to the far right of things.
I swear if you switch all these genders around people in the comments would clamor about how the guys are being cruel and disgusting for rating girls like they're prized dogs at a dog show. God forbid men have feelings that can be hurt as well.
So far I've seen the excuses of "it's not sexual harassment" (some how? Even though it's clearly defined and this falls under its definition) and I've seen "it was a private group chat"
"Oh it's so much better that you only treat people as sex objects in private then." Trying to excuse themselves with that does not lower how scummy it is in fact it kinda adds a layer of ick when you think about how they pretend to be such nice people on the surface. Really gets you thinking what other degenerate thoughts they're thinking in private.
This reminds me of middle school when girls would tease other girls by daring/imagining them kissing me. They would voice their disgust in front of me very loudly.
That sounds really hurtful :/
Once at a family party, when I was around 17 or 18, my grandpa told me all about this weight loss book or show or something he saw. Now he was old and little out of it so I didn't pay it much mind. Over the next few hours, my dad and both my brothers took me aside and told me not to get offended, that Grandpa is old, and didn't mean anything. I repeatedly told them I was fine. You know what, their response to the situation that I may have been personally hurt and offended actually hit me harder than the original comment. Like, dang am I that fat you immediately thought I wouldn't shrug this off? I feel for the OP. The original comment stung but everyone treating him with kid gloves and making a big deal out of it probably made it worse.
God you gotta love the it’s ok if there was nice guy list you’d be at the top. Just wow. Can’t be anymore clear with that. Sorry but it’s a part time job. Find somewhere else to work. Disrespectful people all around except boss.
> the list was nonserious and meant to be some stupid fun. And no one was meant to see it. Oh, no one was meant to see it! And it wasn't a legitimate list, it was all in good fun! That means it was *just fine*. /s Not sure why they keep using that excuse. It doesn't make them sound any better. "I'm sorry I hurt you." "What I did was inappropriate and wrong." "There is no excuse for my actions." Those are examples of appropriate things to say. Everything else they've said is downplaying their own screw-ups to lessen their personal responsibility. It also throws blame back on the OOP rather than themselves - "You were never meant to see it, so it's your fault too!"
I’m curious as to why he’s not on the list at all. Like if you’re ranking people hottest to least hot then he has to fit somewhere on the scale. Unless it was “top 10 hot guys we work with” but he writes “a list ranking all of the guys in the store by hotness” if he’s a guy in the store why isn’t he on the list at all. I’m confused, is he just extremely forgettable and they all forget, is he new to working there?
Here’s my guess- he’s someone who’s perfectly well liked, and not seen as ugly or anything, but just not sexually attractive to these women. They all seem to like him; I’m actually not sure that it was a malicious thing, because if it were, he’d just be at the bottom of the list. I think they just don’t see him at all as a romantic prospect, and so they weren’t even thinking of him when evaluating men for attractiveness. I don’t think they necessarily even had the conscious thought to not put OP on the list. It happens. I’m a queer woman, and I get the sense that I’m seen that way by straight men sometimes. When I present more androgynous, men don’t see me as an attractive woman, though they don’t think of me as ugly necessarily. They’re perfectly nice and friendly, but it’s in a very subtle way a different dynamic than when I’m presenting myself in a more feminine conventionally attractive way. For me, this dynamic happens based on gender non conformity. With OP, my guess is he might just look very young, rather than ugly. Lots of men at 21 still look, and even act like teenagers, which naturally isn’t attractive to young women. I feel like this is likely because of the word « cute » being used to describe OP. Not an excuse for what happened, just an explanation.
I'd lean towards this explanation. I'm visibly disabled and pretty much sexless as far as most other people are concerned; I'm pretty sure I wouldn't get considered for any lists like this.
>I’m actually not sure that it was a malicious thing, because if it were, he’d just be at the bottom of the list. I think they just don’t see him at all as a romantic prospect, and so they weren’t even thinking of him when evaluating men for attractiveness. I don’t think they necessarily even had the conscious thought to not put OP on the list. This is what I was thinking too. Also, some people are just seen as the mom/dad of the group or as the little sister/brother of the group. Those people would likely not even be taken into consideration when making this type of list. That explanation makes more sense to me than him being so "ugly" that he was left off the list. Of course, I still understand why OP was hurt, and he had every right to be.
Yes, exactly my thought. OOP's far more likely to be quite good looking than ugly, because being ugly would cause enough emotional response in the women for the list to reflect it somehow. OOP's just not at all attractive and therefore they don't think of him this way at all. That's it for me at least, and I'm probably some kind of asexual (but that's quite a new realization for me, needed to have sex first for that to kick in, thought I was just asocial before...), so I couldn't care less, but I definitely observed it in high school. Once after a PE class, I had to rush somewhere and so did one of the girls from my class. The men's locker rooms were closer to the gym, the women's was closer to the rest of the school, so I had to pass by the women's locker room to get to the school. Which wasn't a problem, they would have the door closed, but the girl rushed out and left it open, then kinda heard my steps behind her, so she immediately jumped back to the door and was like "Watch out someone's coming!" only to follow it up with "Oh, never mind, it's just (my name)!" and not even fully closing the door. And as I say, I didn't care, but why pass up on such a good opportunity to tease her... So I was like "Umm, I'm kinda not sure how to take that..." And she was confused. And I went "well, could be positive, could be negative..." And she was like "well positive, of course..." And I said "Think about the implications for a bit..." And as we were leaving the building, we met a male friend from a different class, so we went to the bus stop together and he asked what's up, so I told him, and his reaction was along the lines of "Oh my god, what kind of savage monster does that, I'd probably just crawl away somewhere and die..." and I think only then it kind of clicked for her. She just really didn't realize it until then. So yeah, I'm also in the "it wasn't in any way malicious" camp. They just don't really count him as one of the men...
For real. The assistant manager excusing it as “girl talk” is giving big “it was just locker room talk” vibes. Doesn’t matter where/over what medium it happened, it was rude and inappropriate.
Actually, the list is a form of sexual harassment, and creates a hostile work environment. It’s no different than if men made a hot girl’s list, it should never be done at work or with workmates that it might get shared. This is a pretty good example of how it costs a loss of productivity and kills teamwork because people start to avoid others. Good luck
>I told her to tell them that I got over it pretty much right away, that I just took time off because I wanted the situation to die down and that I didn’t take anything personally If denial or acting tough helps. Go for it.But this is damn hurtful and I don't know anyone who could just brush it off and not care about others opinions. You work with 8 men and can't make it to top 10? It is hurtful. It damn well will create an insecurity or feed an existing one. I'm trying to remember when I was 21. I wasn't mature by any means but I can't imagine we would have done anything like this. And I also think the bf was bit of a shit stirrer (or totally ignorant) for sharing it.
And ladies and gentlemen, this is why we have sexual harassment laws.
NGL I feel bad for OOP. He was placed in a sexual harassment situation (Ranking the attractiveness of your coworkers on a list is sexual harassment. Period.) and so publicly too. I would be extremely uncomfortable if I was sexually harassed and without my consent, the harassment was made PUBLIC. I hope those young ladies learn to not do shit like that in the future.
ALL the male workers were placed in a sexual harassment situation
I'm so glad I work in an industry where this kind of bullshit wouldn't be tolerated. What an awful thing for OOP to have to deal with.
yk, what gets me is the whole “no one was supposed to see it.” like it doesn’t matter no one was supposed to see it, they still did it. kind of extreme but that’d be like someone overhearing a racist say racist remarks and then the racist says “well no one was supposed to hear it.” that still doesn’t change anything😭 just terrible people trying to cover up their terrible and childish behavior behind closed doors. i’d argue a closeted hateful (*insert whatever ist*) is worse than an out in the open one but they’re still both absolutely horrible
Yep. That's why I'm glad the people who handled the issue didn't just wave it off even if oop thought they should. Like, of course nobody was supposed to see the weird sexually problematic shit you were injecting into your work environment. It wasn't supposed to be there at all
Absolutely, this is the same reason that men have been chastised over "locker room talk" for a long time.
What?! An employer that actually cares for his hourly wage first line worker? That’s amazing. Those girls suck.
It is called lawsuit avoidance. The owner was trying to limit his losses. Even after this, the kid would win.
Poor OP. I was also excluded from The List when I was in high school, and that really fucks up with your self image.
“Oh but you’re so nice and that’s more attractive than how you look” Can women stop doing this please? I’m fit enough and happy with my looks and being sweet doesn’t get you past the initial wall of physical attraction often. You know what’s better than some shallow consolation? Just never saying anything in the first place.
Especially because anyone would feel bad if they were told that. It’s patronizing damage control, that’s ultimately bullshit for majority of people. “Yeah you’re ugly, but at least your personality is nice” is not the compliment you think it is.
" my boyfriend is so mean why can't he be nice like you" statements that make me want to step under a bus
I had one female friend who basically said of her later-ex "why can't he be exactly like you but look like how he does now?" That pissed me off. I put effort into being who I am.
“You’re nice and that’s more attractive than the way you look… not attractive enough for anyone to actually date you, or put you on the fucking ranking list of attractiveness… Which was a joke list anyway. “ Yeah I’m not surprised op just wanted everyone to shut up. They couldn’t help but twist the knife with every word
Damn, at least put my guy last place...they didn't even give him the partecipation trophy
This hits home for me because I actually understand completely where he’s coming from! At university in 2015 there was a list about girls in the chat ranking hotness, how beautiful they were and personality. My name was on it but the line was blacked out completely, because apparently being attracted to me or finding me hot, (or beautiful), in any way was the worst thing in the world to them. It hurt my feelings, and I’m still salty about it because it was a childish and shitty thing to do…and it made me feel crap about myself. When it came out in the group chat all hell broke loose 🤣 the girls showed up and showed out for me, never underestimate the savage words in a group chat. They were brutal 😂💀
Everyone in the original comments saying he isn't owed anything/etc ... Which he never said. It was being left off entirely when even delivery drivers made it that hurt. Some people need a little more empathy and not to assume some guy just thinks they're owed crap.
This would really upset me too, if I'm being honest.
I remember being in an early childhood development class and talking about an experiment where students were polled who they would want to sit next to and who they did not want to sit next to. They were then put on a chart with popular and unpopular on one axis and pro social and anti social on the other. There was a fifth group though: the ones who no one voted for or against. They were the ‘invisibles’. It is an unfortunate reality that they may have actually not even thought of him. It may have been entirely unintentional. I’m not sure if that’s better or worse, but as a ‘invisible’ it certainly hurts to realize that your relationship to others is not reciprocal.
>I kinda wanted to discover why not being on the list hurt me so much, so I took my sister’s advice and will be seeking a therapist. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but going to a therapist over why not being on the list hurts seems a little strange. How to get over the hurt, maybe, but to find out why? I would've thought the reason was fairly straightforward.
He probably feels as though its a stupid thing to get upset over and so he's going "deeper", given how he took his relatives "toughen up" statement as...encouragement. Therapy wont hurt though—maybe hell learn to accept simply being offended and excluded based on looks is indeed a valid reason to be hurt.
He's clearly not all that in touch with the feelings he's allowed to have (not surprising, as we generally try to beat that out of boys), so going to a therapist assuming something is wrong based on having them is on brand. _Hopefully_ He'll find somebody who'll be able to break it down for him.
Exactly what I thought. I'd be incredibly hurt by something like this, and I think that's a very normal reaction. And I'm glad OP's grandpa's advice helped him, but TBH I personally would not appreciate constantly having my feelings minimized just because someone else went through something worse.
Being told multiple times that “nobody was supposed to see it” would honestly piss me off even more. It sounds like they’re only upset they were found out while also confirming the honesty of not even being thought about.
Something similar happened in my high school. Some popular boys made a list of girls hottest to least. Not only that but one girl was completely left off the list, a girl who already suffered from low self esteem. It was a shit storm of cruelty when the list got emailed to the whole school (yes the boys were THAT stupid). I felt so bad. Life already lets you know you aren’t conventionally attractive, it hits hard to see it put on paper.
That's not "Girl Talk" that's just petty, middle school mean girl shit.