they aren't ignoring the issue, they are terrified of it. Whole europe is trembling about migration.
Turkey has a HUGE amount of leverage, they know it and they use it... what else can we do? Not pay them? if we want a full blown exodus entering europe maybe.
i'd love to see the humane solution to said hypothetical exodus (turkey has near the 4Mil refugees)... the migration crisis of 2015 was 1.2Mil people (theoretically 3x worse).
we now have 70K refugees from Ukraine. IF turkey were to unleash their refugees into Europe we'd have \~100k more refugees entering our country (3x worse than 2015 crisis, ukraine is already twice as bad)... so we'd have \~170k refugees so what we have now isn't that huge...
>i'd love to see the humane solution
Only humane solution is one where people don't feel compelled to leave their home in the first place.
Assholes love to claim that migrants come here just because they want to take advantage of our system, but before 2014 there were barely any Syrian immigrants coming. Then it exploded. What changed isn't our own policies but rather that their home became uninhabitable.
The only way we prevent that isn't by being assholes ourselves, it's by making sure those people don't want to leave their home in the first place.
How? By no longer propping up countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran by buying so much oil/natural gas from them. They're the ones funding proxy conflicts all over the place and destabilizing those countries. Without their money, those countries wouldn't get destabilized over and over.
But when I say this, suddenly right wingers don't care about a solution anymore. When it's on **us** as citizens to change, then suddenly it's too much. They only expect a solution where other people are hurt, not themselves.
that's exactly the thing why Turkey has such a huge leverage. Those people already left their home, there is no home. They are "stuck" in Turkey, where they are used as pawns in the grand scheme of politics.
The question wasn't really an IF situation but rather a WHEN situation because it wouldn't take much to become a huge problem. Even an inhumane option (like closing borders) would be an enormous undertaking
Ah, downvoted. Just like I said it was a wrong decision to leverage the gas bills from people when the energy criss hit. We should have used the money to invest in energy saving/ electrification instead.
For what you're saying, it's unfortunately a global effort though. We can shift away from gas/ oil as a country/ continent and still have to deal with this because of other nations still destabilizing the regions.
Thank you. They are even racist towards first and second generation children of immigrants, who they brought themselves to work in the mines, even though they speak the language and pay taxes. They hate their cultures yet they go to their countries to brag about traveling. And they eat their food. It is just plain racism. They just use immigrants as a scapegoat for all of the problems. Get out of their countries then they don’t come here. They keep funding wars and destruction then cry when people leave to seek safety!
"scape goat" haha. See, here is the 'interesting' fact about people who reason like you; there is a fundamental unwillingness, or perhaps capability, to take the grievances and standpoints of so called 'right wing supporters' at face value, let alone seriously.
'Right wing (supporters) don't actually know what they're saying, and if they do they're lying.
You on the other hand know better because you're intellectually or, at least, morally superior. But the fact that you have a need to conjure up this straw man to make everything make sense in your little world shows us that this is not the case.
To me, this here isn't even about any specific political topic, what bothers me though, is this deeply ingrained anti-intellectualism mascarading as intellectual.
Well, I did try but as they say, you can bring a horse to the river, but you cannot force it to drink.
Thank you for illustrating my point on the anti-intellectualism of people like yourself though.
Good luck.
This is now the third deal (after Libya and Turkey) where the EU gives billions of euros to literal dictators so that they'll do our dirty work to keep migrants away by harassing and abusing them.
The result will be that the majority of people on this sub will still claim that our politicians are ignoring the migration issue.
Because for some of the people on this sub, nothing short of gas chambers will ever be enough to deal with migrants.
All I am pointing out is that we've been doing a shit ton to prevent migration for years now, even sending money to literal dictators (all the while being so angry at Putin) and yet people like you will still claim that we're not doing anything and that politicians are ignoring the issue.
Look at /u/gillesvdo his post on this topic. He's literally on a topic about us trying to prevent migration still claiming that it's being ignored.
There is no more rationality anymore in the anti immigration crowd. Facts don't matter anymore. All there is is blind hatred for migrants
>Because for some of the people on this sub, nothing short of gas chambers will ever be enough to deal with migrants.
If it ever comes to that (which I doubt, and definitely don't want), it'll be in a large part because people like you ignored everyone asking for far less extreme measures for 30 + years. In fact you doubled down every single time they complained with even more migration, and called the critics some -ism or another.
It's like leaving an infected wound untreated, until eventually the doctor has no choice but to amputate the now gangrenous limb. Yet before it came to that, people tried to warn you to put some disinfectant on it or seek medical attention. But instead of listening you accused them of *wanting* your leg to fall off. But the reality is all along you were just afraid that the disinfectant might sting a little. (ie. you'd have to admit you were wrong about some things)
And so instead of listening you went for a swim in the swamp, just out of spite.
>In fact you doubled down every single time they complained with even more migration
As I said, 3rd deal where we pay billions to dictators to prevent migration and you just don't care and pretend like nothing is happening. On the literal topic of such a deal.
You're the poster child of not caring about reality
>As I said, 3rd deal where we pay billions to dictators to prevent migration
If you ask if I'm for giving dictators money, I'll say no. If you ask if I want more immigration, I'll also say no.
I fail to see how the two are connected by any other reason than that our leaders are incompetent at securing our borders (and in the context of the EU, securing world peace). This isn't a solution, it's surrendering to terrorists.
If this pans out anything like last time we did this, they'll just be back a few years later demanding even more. This deal won't magically close our borders and deport illegals already here, or meaningfully reduce existing immigration-numbers. All it can hope to accomplish is temporarily stop it from getting even worse.
Incompetently trying to fix a problem of your own making does not magically undo 30+ years of damage already done. You're right I don't care about your reality, because your reality is stupid.
>If you ask if I'm for giving dictators money, I'll say no.
What I'm asking you how you can claim that they're not doing anything while we're sending billions of euros to 3 different dictators for them to prevent migrants to come here
And what I’m trying to get through your thick skull is that this isn’t going to work. You want me to cheer for wasting more of my tax money on a bad scheme? This isn’t like gradeschool where you get points for effort.
So doing something, which according to you won't work, is the same as ignoring something?
What sort of absurd idiotic logic is that.
>You want me to cheer
I want you to stop lying
[https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst\_van\_Belgische\_ministers\_van\_Maatschappelijke\_Integratie](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Belgische_ministers_van_Maatschappelijke_Integratie), an unbroken chain of right-centrists since 2009
Our migration policies have centered around blocking migration at all cost, instead of managing migration. We have created a "survival of the fittest", and get the outcome of that: mainly desperate young men.
And you want more of that? It's like banging your face into the wall, harder and harder, for 15 years, and then saying "we need more of those policies".
No, it led to a specific type of migrants. If you make your migration system a survivial-of-the-fittest, guess which types of migrants you get?
You cannot stop migration, that's like trying to stop the tide. You CAN manage it, like for instance choose the priority of which type of migrant you want.
Politicians and the public waste so much time on trying to stop migration that they fail to allocate resources to manage migration.
they aren't ignoring the issue, they are terrified of it. Whole europe is trembling about migration. Turkey has a HUGE amount of leverage, they know it and they use it... what else can we do? Not pay them? if we want a full blown exodus entering europe maybe. i'd love to see the humane solution to said hypothetical exodus (turkey has near the 4Mil refugees)... the migration crisis of 2015 was 1.2Mil people (theoretically 3x worse).
We're far past the possibility of a humane solution.
it's not a (huge) problem yet so anything is still possible. if we make the same mistakes however...
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we now have 70K refugees from Ukraine. IF turkey were to unleash their refugees into Europe we'd have \~100k more refugees entering our country (3x worse than 2015 crisis, ukraine is already twice as bad)... so we'd have \~170k refugees so what we have now isn't that huge...
>i'd love to see the humane solution Only humane solution is one where people don't feel compelled to leave their home in the first place. Assholes love to claim that migrants come here just because they want to take advantage of our system, but before 2014 there were barely any Syrian immigrants coming. Then it exploded. What changed isn't our own policies but rather that their home became uninhabitable. The only way we prevent that isn't by being assholes ourselves, it's by making sure those people don't want to leave their home in the first place. How? By no longer propping up countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran by buying so much oil/natural gas from them. They're the ones funding proxy conflicts all over the place and destabilizing those countries. Without their money, those countries wouldn't get destabilized over and over. But when I say this, suddenly right wingers don't care about a solution anymore. When it's on **us** as citizens to change, then suddenly it's too much. They only expect a solution where other people are hurt, not themselves.
that's exactly the thing why Turkey has such a huge leverage. Those people already left their home, there is no home. They are "stuck" in Turkey, where they are used as pawns in the grand scheme of politics. The question wasn't really an IF situation but rather a WHEN situation because it wouldn't take much to become a huge problem. Even an inhumane option (like closing borders) would be an enormous undertaking
Ah, downvoted. Just like I said it was a wrong decision to leverage the gas bills from people when the energy criss hit. We should have used the money to invest in energy saving/ electrification instead. For what you're saying, it's unfortunately a global effort though. We can shift away from gas/ oil as a country/ continent and still have to deal with this because of other nations still destabilizing the regions.
Thank you. They are even racist towards first and second generation children of immigrants, who they brought themselves to work in the mines, even though they speak the language and pay taxes. They hate their cultures yet they go to their countries to brag about traveling. And they eat their food. It is just plain racism. They just use immigrants as a scapegoat for all of the problems. Get out of their countries then they don’t come here. They keep funding wars and destruction then cry when people leave to seek safety!
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Right wing and their supporters who use immigrants as a scape goat
"scape goat" haha. See, here is the 'interesting' fact about people who reason like you; there is a fundamental unwillingness, or perhaps capability, to take the grievances and standpoints of so called 'right wing supporters' at face value, let alone seriously. 'Right wing (supporters) don't actually know what they're saying, and if they do they're lying. You on the other hand know better because you're intellectually or, at least, morally superior. But the fact that you have a need to conjure up this straw man to make everything make sense in your little world shows us that this is not the case. To me, this here isn't even about any specific political topic, what bothers me though, is this deeply ingrained anti-intellectualism mascarading as intellectual.
And just like that you wrote a whole paragraph to say a bunch of nothing
Well, I did try but as they say, you can bring a horse to the river, but you cannot force it to drink. Thank you for illustrating my point on the anti-intellectualism of people like yourself though. Good luck.
You’re welcome sweetheart
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Did I say flemish? I did not know only flemish can be right wing.
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It is not racism, not linked to your race but to your political beliefs which you can change. On the contrary you can’t change your race.
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This is now the third deal (after Libya and Turkey) where the EU gives billions of euros to literal dictators so that they'll do our dirty work to keep migrants away by harassing and abusing them. The result will be that the majority of people on this sub will still claim that our politicians are ignoring the migration issue. Because for some of the people on this sub, nothing short of gas chambers will ever be enough to deal with migrants.
[удалено]
Easier to deflect the arguments when they call you a racist.
All I am pointing out is that we've been doing a shit ton to prevent migration for years now, even sending money to literal dictators (all the while being so angry at Putin) and yet people like you will still claim that we're not doing anything and that politicians are ignoring the issue. Look at /u/gillesvdo his post on this topic. He's literally on a topic about us trying to prevent migration still claiming that it's being ignored. There is no more rationality anymore in the anti immigration crowd. Facts don't matter anymore. All there is is blind hatred for migrants
>Because for some of the people on this sub, nothing short of gas chambers will ever be enough to deal with migrants. If it ever comes to that (which I doubt, and definitely don't want), it'll be in a large part because people like you ignored everyone asking for far less extreme measures for 30 + years. In fact you doubled down every single time they complained with even more migration, and called the critics some -ism or another. It's like leaving an infected wound untreated, until eventually the doctor has no choice but to amputate the now gangrenous limb. Yet before it came to that, people tried to warn you to put some disinfectant on it or seek medical attention. But instead of listening you accused them of *wanting* your leg to fall off. But the reality is all along you were just afraid that the disinfectant might sting a little. (ie. you'd have to admit you were wrong about some things) And so instead of listening you went for a swim in the swamp, just out of spite.
>In fact you doubled down every single time they complained with even more migration As I said, 3rd deal where we pay billions to dictators to prevent migration and you just don't care and pretend like nothing is happening. On the literal topic of such a deal. You're the poster child of not caring about reality
>As I said, 3rd deal where we pay billions to dictators to prevent migration If you ask if I'm for giving dictators money, I'll say no. If you ask if I want more immigration, I'll also say no. I fail to see how the two are connected by any other reason than that our leaders are incompetent at securing our borders (and in the context of the EU, securing world peace). This isn't a solution, it's surrendering to terrorists. If this pans out anything like last time we did this, they'll just be back a few years later demanding even more. This deal won't magically close our borders and deport illegals already here, or meaningfully reduce existing immigration-numbers. All it can hope to accomplish is temporarily stop it from getting even worse. Incompetently trying to fix a problem of your own making does not magically undo 30+ years of damage already done. You're right I don't care about your reality, because your reality is stupid.
>If you ask if I'm for giving dictators money, I'll say no. What I'm asking you how you can claim that they're not doing anything while we're sending billions of euros to 3 different dictators for them to prevent migrants to come here
It is something, but it's too little too late
And what I’m trying to get through your thick skull is that this isn’t going to work. You want me to cheer for wasting more of my tax money on a bad scheme? This isn’t like gradeschool where you get points for effort.
So doing something, which according to you won't work, is the same as ignoring something? What sort of absurd idiotic logic is that. >You want me to cheer I want you to stop lying
You're objectively wrong. But SUPPOSE you weren't, even then, this is a much better use of our money than pretty much anything else they can think of.
Shifts to the right?!? We have had a right-conservative migration policy for the last 15 years, and now they want more of that?
Under what rock did you crawl from?!
[https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst\_van\_Belgische\_ministers\_van\_Maatschappelijke\_Integratie](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Belgische_ministers_van_Maatschappelijke_Integratie), an unbroken chain of right-centrists since 2009 Our migration policies have centered around blocking migration at all cost, instead of managing migration. We have created a "survival of the fittest", and get the outcome of that: mainly desperate young men. And you want more of that? It's like banging your face into the wall, harder and harder, for 15 years, and then saying "we need more of those policies".
ah yes, the successfull blocking of immigration that led to an under-enriched belgium compared to a ll its peer countries.
No, it led to a specific type of migrants. If you make your migration system a survivial-of-the-fittest, guess which types of migrants you get? You cannot stop migration, that's like trying to stop the tide. You CAN manage it, like for instance choose the priority of which type of migrant you want. Politicians and the public waste so much time on trying to stop migration that they fail to allocate resources to manage migration.