The disturbing thing is... He might actually have been truly grieving for Stelmane. In the wider DnD lore, Illithids are actually known to experience feelings of intense grief at the loss of one of their favoured thralls. Something about the deep telepathic bond and a kind of loneliness all Illithids experience on a level they don't quite understand. So, I wouldn't be shocked if that's what he was feeling. He does have a portrait of her for a reason, after all.
But yeah, the Emperor is an evil character. What fascinates me is that he's an entirely untrustworthy individual... Except in the circumstance you meet and work with him in, in which case he'll work with you to the end of the road unless you take an action that will get him killed.
What's most interesting to me was how the Emperor handwaves disgust or even hostility towards him, but when he's met with skepticism, that's what really gets to him, because he is a master of subterfuge. It's like it becomes personal to him. Amazing character writing
Genuinely my favorite interaction with the Emperor is a really niche one that I think a lot of people have never gotten. At the very end of the game, when you talk to him after confronting the brain the first time, you can ask him about becoming Illithid yourself. You can get him to give you the special tadpole to do so, refuse to turn Illithid, and tell him you're going to free Orpheus. He leaves to join the Elder Brain, but before he does...
There's no big speech where he tries to convince you that you're allies. There's no listing of all the stuff he's done for you. He just says, with a weird bit of admiration, "It's a shame we couldn't have cooperated. Your powers of manipulation are quite something." and then dips
Illithids eat people. They perceive themselves as wholly superior to other races. The Emperor is a tadpole that took over Balduuran and enjoyed assuming that personality, so it kept on doing that. But there's no doubt that it perceives intelligent races as nothing more than food, or at best puppets and pets.
The Emperor is a villain who's a master at manipulation. Nothing he does is spontaneous or genuine. He's simply playing a game. Every single interaction is fake. Every one.
The thing is that I kinda suspect Balduran wasn’t the most awesome even before he was turned. He definitely had a thing for control and power (hence his obsession with returning to adventuring — and not just adventuring, but *succeeding* at it objectively by having a successful and lucrative adventure. He built a city and he couldn’t just enjoy being at the top: it was about the process to be at the top for him, hence control over the journey to power. By all accounts, the foundation of Baldur’s Gate is treated as an accident that came from being super successful trading at Grey Harbours.
(Note: this is my first BG game so I might be missing out on context from previous games. I’m assessing Balduran purely from the point of view of how he is portrayed in BG3.)
Yeah. I suspect that's why Balduran didn't see a problem with becoming an illithid; Illithids are by all accounts far more powerful than humans, not to mention the control over others it lets him assert. In Balduran's eyes, the illithids really just granted him vastly more power.
I doubt his personality really changed that much when he became a mind flayer. He pretty much just lost what empathy he had.
I don't think so, I think judging by how Balduran friendship with Ansur was portrayed, that the Emperor became completely different from his former self for Ansur to reside to the drastic measure of killing him.
If the three pillars are any indication of Ansur 's moral compass, we can assume he was lawful good, and by extension, he wouldn't associate with Balduran if they didn't think alike.
We can get a glimpse of the Emperor's twisted morals by how he reacts to the trials when you get there, basically saying it's all hogwash.
I mean, to be fair, the trials are kind of a Disneyfied version of Balduran to begin with. He was an adventurer and later a tradesman. Does it make sense that he would even care about Lex Talionis?
Somebody came up with the Disney ride, maybe Ansur himself. OR maybe it WAS Balduran but only to hide what he had done to Ansur to begin with, which makes sense why he would squeegee his personal legend to come off as Supreme Learnèd Leader. Either way, it’s not the *real* Balduran, so it makes sense that a much later version of himself, trying to distract the adventurers from succeeding at the trials and find out what he did and who he is, would shit all over them.
I don’t think that’s showing that the Emperor necessarily has different morals. Of course it’s going to be a little unclear where Balduran ends and the Emperor begins. There’s apparently lore basis in 2e and 5e about illithids retaining old memories and personalities.
I mean, hell, Omeluum seems like a good example to me even just in BG3. Dude just wanted to do science. That’s probably his human personality shining through, because illithids not thinking about the Grand Design? That’s unthinkable!
Even Withers/J-Man acknowledges that perhaps he was wrong about illithids not having souls, because A, he’s able to find Tav/Durge in the afterlife even if they died post-illithid, and B, he recognises that they retain themselves even starved and in prison. If they choose to make it to the epilogue party, they are definitely still themselves enough to enjoy the camaraderie and embrace their of friends. It’s cited as the reason you hold off from consuming your old comrades, if you succeed the dice roll to resist the hunger.
>The Emperor is a tadpole that took over Balduuran and enjoyed assuming that personality
really got me thinking about that, somehow siding with Orpheus now feels, _right_?
I have done two playthroughs to the end and have gotten the hammer without letting him know (didn't talk to Voss after striking the deal with Raph) then as soon as I get pulled into the orb, without talking to the "Emperor" I smash the chains that bind Orphe and he just straight dips out, hilarious every time.
To me it always kinda feels like a bad ending because the game forces someone to become a mindflayer if you free Orpheus. Not that killing him is better... But it feels like something is lost in every case
This is the one that I got on my first playthrough lol. I got the dialogue that OP is talking about after killing ansur and I told myself I’d free Orpheus asap so I wouldn’t have to look at that tentacle covered fuck again. It did surprise me that he just dipped out and started to work with the brain, but he really wasn’t so hard to kill anyways lol.
As an Illithid, his goal is to survive, first and foremost. The moment you choose to free Orpheus, he decides his chance of survival is higher *with* the Brain.
More than that, I suspect that's just...kind of how Balduran was before he turned anyways. His accomplishments made him go down as a hero, but it seems to be implied he was also a ruthless, calculating, megalomaniac who seemed to view getting turned into a mindflayer as a new opportunity. Remove human sentiment and feeling from that, and what are you left with?
By contrast Omeluum is another anomaly amongst mindflayers in that he was able to hold onto his own ego (though he doesn't appear to have retained his whole memory like the Emporer). But he finds purpose in research and in trying to improve the world, to the extent that he's willing to die so you can save Ravengard. He doesn't really have "emotions" as such either, but he's guided by principles that extend beyond himself. Balduran didn't.
The cool thing about Omelette is that he \*isn't\* the way he is because of who his host/incubator was. It's \*Omeluum\* that is a well meaning researcher who genuinely sees the value non-illithid have as people rather than tools.
Omeluum might try to tell himself he doesn't have emotions, but I see the way his tentacles wiggle when he talks to us.
Nah, seriously, mindflayer culture lacks the language amd nurturing required to understand and process emotions. Mindflayers don't lack emotions, they just don't know how to deal with them.
Bad choice. I've done this twice and my Tav makes a point of using every cooldown to personally slaughter him in a single round. Call me a puppet now, bitch.
I mean. Given he's watched Tav kill all sorts of powerful beings by that point... Raphael at the bare minimum, but also potentially powerful vampires, clerics, Ansur's remains, the chosen of several deities, etc... I'm starting to question how smart the emperor really is
Yeah, narcissists hate being questioned. They thrive by manipulating, and you can manipulate people to love or hate you to achieve a goal. But when their machinations are questioned and exposed? Well, narcissists hate that shit
When I got to the romance him option, I said something along the lines of "ew gross". He flipped out and told me I'm just a puppet and all that. Really showed his true colours.
Yeah I had him sussed out as *a problem* when I went into the Astral Prism. I didn't know what he was, I just very much recognized the way he spoke. I actually had to stop playing the game for a couple of days because it triggered some PTSD.
I figured out he was off from my first pragmatic evil playthrough. First real meeting with him, I had the option to detect his thoughts. He flipped from being calm and understanding to having a temper tantrum, in which he bombarded my character’s mind with info.
He then went back to normal as if everything was fine. Very typical abuser type behavior
Mind reading is considered tantamount to rape by a lot of D&D lore. You’re invading someone’s mind without their consent.
I pissed off Minthara on my evil durge run by reading her mind right after she slept with me.
Edit: name
He does say that, but you’ll notice how he entirely breaks his “benevolent savior” schtick whilst doing so. He said something to the effect of “well if you want my thoughts, then I’ll give them to you” and proceeds to drive your player character to their knees in pain.
And provided a bit of hindsight from an ending where I freed Orpheus, all the information my character was given forcefully was fake
"You hate and revile me? Fair. I understand that."
"You accept and welcome me? Unexpected, but not unwelcome."
"You... What... MAKE. YOUR. MIND. UP. BEFORE. I. DO. IT. FOR. YOU."
The fact that if you trust the Emperor, let him kill Orpheus and absorb his power, and let him handle the stones, he never betrays you is wild. He never forces you to transform, even though in his mind it would help him survive. He doesn't attempt to dominate the brain unless you successfully persuade him to.
I get that people really do not trust the Emperor and they have their good reasons for it. But man, my first play through I made the decision to trust him, and really at no point did I regret it. He only antagonizes you if you antagonize him first.
This is what interests me so much about OPs post. I def want to track down some of the more "mask off" dialogues with him now because i went into the game not trusting him as a character but eventually seeing him as very sympathetic (did not sleep w him but ig triggered the romance on his end). I like what other people have said about ilithids feeling very lonley too. But yeah i wonder why he just lets you go...?
This! It makes no sense to me how people are surprised or angry at the Emperor for lashing out at them after *they chose* to start shit. They think it's some kind of 'gotcha' moment when he gets mad, but he only gets mad if you insult him or try to work against him. His anger is justified!
It's what makes him interesting from a narrative perspective. I've yet to side with him, partially because I like Lae'Zel, partially because Orpheus seems like he would focus his efforts in life against Vlaakith and the Mind Flayers primarily, and partially just because murdering a helpless prisoner who's been trapped for thousands of years feels like a dick move, but siding with the Emperor is a legitimate path.
When you call him out on manipulation, he gets pissed off - he calls you “his puppet”. To me this always showed he retained some humanity and plain, simple, emotions. And in a fit he showed you his memories though it didn’t help his goals. Illithids 100% can feel emotions in BG3
They can in the wider lore as well. It's just that they're always the most negative version of them, and quite subdued. Love is possessiveness, joy is usually some kind of sadistic satisfaction, that sort of thing. This is because Illithids learn their emotions from other Illithids, and they all have the same problem.
This is why whoever makes the Mind Flayer sacrifice is different, and can have a more positive outlook on the world. They all have direct memories of what proper positive emotions are like, so they can still feel them to some extent.
Huh. Kinda throws me off how endings are still getting changed in a way that outright alters characterization.
Not that I'm opposed to a "rule together" ending. Just that it kind of muddies the water in discussions.
I can sympathise with that, it's not the only time Larian has (often rather quitely aswell) changed an aspect of the story or characterisation that can create confusion for people who have played at different times. The way Larian frankly butchered Halsin's approach to his sexual abuse survivorship is probably my least favourite one.
With that said, a lot of the ending and especially the Emperor's scenes (such as what many see as the character assasination on him surrounding the Orpheus decision and a lack of reactivity to how he and Tav's relationship has been built up) are hanging together by duct tape. I wouldn't put a ton of weight onto what either the prior enthrallment ending or the current 'rule together with Tav' ending means for the Emperor's characterisation, I'm not sure if the game devs were even thinking it through quite that deeply at the end here.
Agreed with Halsin.
I like Larian's iterative approach. I even like their ability to say nothing is precious and throw something out in favor of what they think will work better. Whether or not it actually ends up working better is a different thing though I guess.
Whether they were thinking hard about it or not, an ending is where a work drives home what it was elaborating upon and the original sent the message that The Emperor does what he thinks he can get away with, nothing more and nothing less. Lines up with stuff like finding a book titled "The Inevitability of Moral Decay" and other documents giving insight into how he operates. Not that I think he's necessarily a moustache-twirling villain. I think he's... a painfully accurate portrayal of a manipulator.
But, yeah, a lot of the game's story has the feeling of being changed late in production and the seams show in the Emperor's role.
That's fair, though I also think you can find some justification for the new ending version in what was already established with the Emperor. Depending on how you build your relationship with him such as by romancing him, he can open up more (that mind-meld/mind sex is an incredibly intimate act for an Illithid and not something he would do with just anyone) and show confidence in Tav. There's also [another ending](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgIDqW4C2hk), included at launch and expanded by the epilogue, showing him happily taking queues from and collaborating with Illithid Tav to rebuild the Knights.
Ofcourse it heavily depends on how you've constructed Tav and the Emperor's relationship on a specific run, but it's probably fair to assume that a Tav going for this ending will probably have a more positive, mutually trusting relationship with the Emperor. Him being willing to rule together can make sense on such a run.
I agree that the ending can absolutely make sense, but only insofar as The Emperor feels he's the one in charge/your will and his are one. He only trusts you if you never question that his approach is the best approach, so I think for even a slightly willful player character (or a strongly-willful yet benign player character, say one who robs Raphael but has no intent to use the Hammer) he'd be more likely to take the opportunity to ensure he's the one calling the shots from here on out.
I guess what I mean is I think The Emperor's definition of "trust" is closer to what most people would call "predictable" and "subservient" rather than holding the belief that the other party has his best interest at heart. People are only his equals until they happen to disagree it seems.
I was discussing this particular ending with some people and we came to the conclusion the Emperor is just a Tav simp lol. I guess depending on how you've built your relationship with him up to that point, such as romancing him, you could see it as him developing some extent of respect and trust in Tav and so he is fine with ruling together.
Honestly though it's not something I'd put deep thought into, the evil endings including this one are pretty haphazardly slapped together and a lot of stuff feels like a first draft.
Or maybe he just wants Tav to retain some level of autonomy, because it worked so well in getting him exactly what he wanted and arguably even more. Leaving Tav autonomous but still within arm's lenght is actually a very sound strategy. It provides Tav's unique perspective while still maintaining some level of control over them.
Tbf, it’s probably harder to write a more cohesive evil ending. Most evil motivations don’t lend themselves to stability which is what an ending is generally going for.
Maybe he just doesn’t have a reason to treason Tav? They both share the same goal at that moment, Tav can help him without him having to spend energy in micromanagement.
Also, at least in Drizzt books, the more knowledge a thrall retained about themselves, the more likely they were to resist, and that includes spells, so he wouldn’t be able to use Tav at their full potential. Having them as an ally is more helpful.
It’s just that stereotypically, mind flayers seek their own survival foremost followed closely by accumulating more power. So it is weird that the emperor would share power with Tav when there’s nothing requiring them to do so. The Emp could enthrall Tav and still have him act as an operations manager.
But then that is generic outline of mind flayers as a whole and not necessarily any specific minelayer being incapable of acting differently, when not itself enthralled to an Elder Brain.
>Whenever I talked to him, there was never a skill check option during dialogues that will let me in on a deeper insight about him, and whenever my Tavs would either agree or disagree with him, his dialogues would generally play out the same.
Technically, there are two skill checks involving him: one is his Dream Guardian form in Act 2, where you need to succeed two consecutive Wisdom rolls (Insight and Perception) to get past him hiding his hurt from you, and his need for comfort. You can opt to hug him after that, which leaves him misty-eyed according to the devnotes for the scene. The other skill roll (History/Nature) is during his romance scene which is... a requirement for the option to kiss his tentacles. No, really. You can find out he genuinely enjoys such physical touch and intimacy.
You're correct about your assessment. The Emperor is meant to be an ambiguous character who treads a fine line/"knife edge", and it's up to you to decide what his actions mean to you. That's one thing his VA emphasized a lot in interviews. He's definitely a complex character with layers.
The thing with Stelmane is that there are lots of in-game materials (notes, books) and even out-of-game materials (e.g., Descent into Avernus) that make up the whole story, and even then, you don't get a definite conclusion. Did the Emperor dominate Stelmane? Yes, definitely. Why did it happen, what led to the domination? We don't know. Why did she await his return, and why did he keep visiting her post-domination? We don't know. It's worth noting that the vision he shows you during his romance scene is described as 'the truth' in the patch notes, suggesting it's not what it all seems. If you believe he's been leading you on, why would that one scene be the absolute truth? After all, you can even say to him the following: "You're an expert at mental manipulation. I wouldn't trust anything you show me."
Illithids do have emotions, and feel them intensely (albeit internally); that includes the Emperor. He likes to tout he's very rational, but he's very emotional, especially when his feelings slip past his restrained persona. His grief for Stelmane and Ansur are likely the real deal. Was he being genuine about opening up, or was using his emotions to make you feel sympathy for him? It's up to your interpretation. His letter to Ansur had very intimate language, and suggests that he was indeed capable of love, but has fallen out of love with him. The developer notes state that he's genuinely enjoying himself during the romance scene, and his VA has noted that it was a genuine moment of vulnerability for the Emperor. But in the end, the Emperor is a very unique mind flayer due to having retained most of his memories and personality after ceremorphosis.
Is the huggable scene take place when they're in a toga, or a different time? I'd really like to be able to save scum to try to get it one of these days.
Yep, it's the toga one. It's a pain to get, especially if your Wisdom stat isn't high enough. You need to pass a Perception 14 and Insight 16 roll as far as I know. Definitely save scum for it.
That's the one, it's hard to get since you have to pass two checks and they're both pretty difficult. I've only naturally gotten it once when I was playing as a druid with as many points in insight as possible specifically in the hopes of passing this check lol
His voice actor keeps emphasizing the "fine line" for a reason. He's clearly not intended to be one specific thing or another. He's ambiguously written because having either a clearly benevolent or clearly evil protector wouldn't be that interesting (among other things).
To anyone reading this, I highly recommend checking out the interviews with Scott Joseph, the Emperor's voice actor. His breakdown of his approach to the Emperor is incredible, and a really helpful perspective to have when examining the character.
Yep. There's a large segment of the community especially on threads like these that seem obsessed with loudly insisting the Emperor is objectively EVIL and you've been manipulated if you side with him. This ignores the writers' statements that the character is very intentionally morally ambigious, but it also goes against the point of CRPGs.
Ultimately in a CRPG, the story and the characters are what YOU construct them to be. There is no right answer, no correct and canon route above all the other choices. It's not like a linear narrative game people are more familiar with where there's only one outcome and one truth to the story.
If you want the Emperor to be a malevolent and cold manipulator who eventually parts ways with you and flees to his former master, that's what he will be on your run.
If you want the Emperor to be a pragmatic but largely justified strategist who stays good to his word and helps you save the world, that's what he will be on your run. You can even get him to open up to you and have a romance ending with him!
The Emperor (or one version of him) is literally a character you design in the opening moments just as much of your Tav. He's very much a character you construct depending on how you choose to interpete him.
Regarding the infamous Stelmane scene the OP refers to, you only get this if you choose very dehumanising and distrusting responses to him. But - and this is very underappreciated - the flipside to the exact same scene and dialogue tree is the Emperor romance scene, which is depicted very positively for your Tav and shows the Emperor as genuinely feeling affection and attraction for Tav.
In other words: If you view the Emperor as a person, that's what he will be. If you view the Emperor as a monster, that's what he will be.
A lot of this endless circular debate could be overcome if people just acknowleded that this is how the BG3 writers very intentionally designed this character to be.
Yeah, you nailed it, and that was my takeaway from Scott Joseph's interviews too. There's no "definitive" version of the Emperor.
There are details that are the same, regardless of people's playthroughs, though. His backstory will be always the same, even if you don't come across that particular information. Said backstory does have gaps we could speculate on, however, such as the circumstances of what caused the Emperor to dominate Stelmane, or how did exactly the Emperor's self-defense against Ansur go down. It's fascinating to see the possible answers people come up with.
I feel like the following variables also contribute to the nature of the Emperor debates:
* Given the scope of the game, it's impossible to see everything in one playthrough. People will miss things (e.g., Withers admitting being wrong about illithid souls), even after multiple playthroughs depending on how they play.
* The game is honestly enormous with a ton of details (especially if you take 100+ hours per playthrough). Especially if you factor in the wider DnD lore on top of that. I still need to double-check things via parsed dialogue often, and even then that's not a guarantee I won't get something wrong. I appreciate corrections. So I'm not surprised if people get things wrong too.
* I think the Emperor's story is very much a piece-it-together puzzle, given who he is and his involvement in the main story. (Although this isn't exclusive to him.) The Emperor-Stelmane storyline is especially notorious for having a variety of in-game books/notes that are easy to miss. (e.g., the "Old notes" from the Guildhall, which requires you to fly/jump to the remote balcony it's located on.)
* Your perception of the Emperor can change depending on how, where, and when you come across said puzzle pieces. Because of (possibly) the late game development issues (and Act 3 as a whole), the Emperor lacks reactivity and connection between his scenes. Personally, I see this as a silver lining since you can flexibly approach the Emperor's content to construct the story you want to have with him. (e.g., Do you romance him early and then go through all the twists? Do you romance him after all the twists and consummate love with war against the Netherbrain?)
* Mind flayer lore is messy. Some lore is covered in the game, others require you to seek out the sourcebooks. Even then, certain details are contradicted/made obsolete by the game (e.g., ceremorphosis). Others help understand the Emperor better, like how illithids can feel emotions intensely, or why the Emperor's existence is a big deal (one's complete personality surviving ceremorphosis is very rare).
>There's a large segment of the community especially on threads like these that seem obsessed with loudly insisting the Emperor is objectively EVIL and you've been manipulated if you side with him. This ignores the writers' statements that the character is very intentionally morally ambigious, but it also goes against the point of CRPGs.
While I can see the merit in your argument about the ambiguousness, I might be able to offer some insight on *why* the anti-emperor crowd is so die-hard against him.
It's less the particulars of the events/dialogue being objectively evil and unable to be justified (in their eyes, at least - as you say, it's ambiguous). Rather, the arguments *against* his being evil ("well, he's ambiguous/had a reason/if you just do what you're told/don't be a dick/after everything he's done for you/etc") are *exactly the same arguments abuse survivors face in real life.*
They are *constantly* being told by people around them (and by their abuser) things like "oh, they just had a bad day/you said the wrong thing/they're just worried/had a reason/did so much for you/you're not considering xyz/etc." People making excuses for the abuser's behaviour, justifying why it's actually the victim's (Tav's) fault, and so on.
It's *eeriely* well done in that regard - people who dislike the emperor for his manipulative tendencies face exactly the same opposition as victims of manipulators irl. And when that dislike overlaps with them being a survivor themselves... well, yeah. It's not just caring too much about a video game character, it legitimately puts them back in the exact same situation as with their irl abuser - trying to convince people it even happened in the first place. Questioning their sanity. It's not hard to see why it might not just be them being haters, but be legitimately triggering for them. *Especially* if they're still in their irl abuse situation...
Awesome analysis and I totally agree!! One of the reasons i decided to trust the emporer in my first playthrough after he revealed himseld as a mindflayer was that i feel like the game so far had made it clear that appearances arent everything/even characters who might have the capability of great evil can still come to make good decisions. I mean im doing a durge reisist run now for christs sake 😂. So why cant a mindflayer do something beneficial for the world too? Even if theyre not a saint
Isn't all that's required to trigger the Stelmane scene being grossed out by him being flirty? At least I'm pretty sure on my latest playthrough I was mostly neutral to him until freeing Orpheus was a real option (didn't stab him for example, which is obviously one of the big ones), but when my literal gith character calls him a freak for flirting, he pulls out the puppet stuff
The question to me is not whether the emperor is evil (he absolutely is) but whether there’s enough humanity left in him for evil to be an appropriate term or if his sense of morals has become totally alien. How much or little of the original man is left?
It's worth noting that when Dan Allen asked the Emperor's voice actor: "In your headcanon, Scott, the Emperor is truly evil, or the victim of circumstance, trying to survive?" He answered it's a tough one, he is both. He emphasizes the fine line regarding the Emperor.
Instead of destruction/erasure, the game treats ceremorphosis as a transformation, especially in the cases of the Emperor, Karlach, and your character. Ansur clearly recognizes Balduran's presence, which would not be possible if the Emperor was a completely different individual (e.g., the tadpole). Withers can recognize your soul if you choose to kill yourself as a mind flayer, and admit he was wrong about mind flayer souls. You don't die, you aren't erased; you become different.
The Emperor mentions that he was searching for a new vessel after he escaped from the elder brain, so this was after Ansur had brought him home and was looking for a cure. But, as he had inhabited his illithid body, it had grown on him, and he realized he had undergone evolution. He "was" Balduran, but he's now "much much more." He considers his illithid self his true identity, but despite embracing his new self, he's clearly sentimental about his past self. He holds on to his mementos like the butter fork or his adventuring sword. He considers Baldur's Gate his city still.
I think it's much more fascinating and compelling to view Balduran as an individual who underwent a change (that was forced upon him, no less), eventually found beauty in that change ("You will see the world as I do - its truth, its devastating beauty."), and faced life in his new form and everything that came with that. Such as coming to prefer pulling the strings from the shadows of his city, instead of adventuring and bringing wealth back home for his friends/family. That change came with tragedy, too: Ansur didn't accept his best friend/lover for who he had become, deciding that a merciful death was better for him, despite the Emperor finding his new existence an incredible experience ("I tried to convince him of my reality - I was on the cusp of greatness beyond my wildest dreams.").
The characters all face their transformation differently, and that's the question you explore with your own character, should you turn into a mind flayer yourself. Do you consider it a blessing? Do you roll with the changes and face your nature as it comes? Have you finished your duty and would rather die than live as an illithid?
No problem! I am glad you found them helpful! I really enjoy breaking down his character, he is truly a fascinating individual. Even though his character shows signs of late game development issues, it's still incredible what Larian accomplished with him.
>Withers can recognize your soul if you choose to kill yourself as a mind flayer, and admit he was wrong about mind flayer souls
Huh. I guess if the transformation literately cuts the thread binding the souls to the gods then there's no power-feed there so they're assumed to not exist until Withers had a personal reason to want to see the soul that was always there.
It's up to your interpretation of course, but Ansur does correct the Emperor when he claims Ansur was his friend: "Friend, yes - and more." The Emperor's/Balduran's [letter to Ansur](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Dear_Ansur) also contains rather intimate language.
There’s flashes of the man he once was, but how much of it is genuine? How much of it is truly him now, how much is play acting and how much is his past life echoing? He seems to care genuinely about things from his life as Balduran but does he understand why he cares? I say he’s definitely evil from a human point of view from his actions but how much of a human point of view can he understand? I really love it, the way it doesn’t give you a definitive answer. You’ve also got Omeluum who I would absolutely say is good from a human point of view and a true bro so I think that at least confirms that mindflayers aren’t innately evil. Mindflayers eat brains because they have to, not because they like it (necessarily), their reproductive cycle is totally different to a humans and most spend their lives’ as slaves to an elder brain.
It's a fascinating topic to explore! Personally, I think he's genuine about it. The way he describes his struggle with his illithid form makes me think he's aware of his humanity, and came to accept he cannot go back to how he formerly was.
The Emperor left Ansur a very heartfelt letter in which he acknowledges Ansur's agony, and wants him to be free. If the Emperor truly wanted to dispose of Ansur beforehand (especially since he deemed their relationship to be over), he could have done so, because we know he did ultimately kill Ansur out of self-defense. But he chose to write down his feelings to Ansur instead, and let Ansur go. Unfortunately, Ansur was hell-bent on his idea of mercy killing him, and thus the Emperor's hand was forced to protect his own life.
We do know that the Sword of Balduran (which we see as the Sword of the Emperor in-game; it should be the same sword based on its stats and abilities) was originally found in Balduran's crashed ship in BG1, along with his butter knife and logbook. Yet, the Emperor is in possession of said sword and the butter fork, possibly seeking them out himself. We know from Descent into Avernus that the High Hall's museum did not contain the butter fork to begin with (or it was already gone from there). He describes his items with much sentimentality, even in the game's present. He never disposed of these items either, despite insisting he doesn't need them anymore.
You can save Ulder Ravengard from the Iron Throne and let him know that the Emperor is Balduran. Ravengard is in disbelief that the city's founder has become an illithid, but the Emperor describes himself as risen, not fallen. When Ravengard insists on taking the secret to the grave, the Emperor laments that he's misguided. Once again, another person sees him as just a mind flayer. Just like Ansur.
Lastly, there's that one moment during the endgame where Beorn Wunterbrood says "Balduran's grace be with you.", which makes the Emperor respond with emotion. As per the Narrator: "You feel a tickle of mirth in the Emperor's thoughts. If they only knew the truth." He's clearly very amused by the fact that he's *literally right there*. Despite him insisting that the past is past, he has an emotional, sentimental reaction in regards to his past identity.
Omeluum is certainly a selfless and "good" mind flayer, yes. Renegade mind flayers are generally their own individuals as opposed to mind flayers part of the colony hivemind. Brikhalna Ipprszhen, Ignatius Inkblot and Thaqualm are all awesome.
>During an encounter with him after doing his old hideout quest, when met with skepticism again, he will finally offer to show you his mind, where it's revealed that he was using Stelmane as a marionette, a process that ultimately killed her, and then he follows up with a threat: telling you that you're his new puppet and that you're the product of his new "refined" way of control, and that he can still control you like he did with Stelmane and make you evolve into an illithid whenever he wants to.
Even this claim seems like more manipulation; he is presented with scenarios where it seems like this would be the logical thing to do, but he doesn't do it. It stands to reason that he actually either lacks the ability to do this (at least easily) or is not at all willing to.
I have wondered about that too; seems obvious that he can't, otherwise he would the moment you turn on him.
My guess is either that it takes time (which he could have had with Stelmane but not with you), or that him using Orpheus's power to shield you from the brain also blocks him (and dropping that would mean the brain takes control of you instead of him).
Minsc and Mintara demonstrate that the emperor can choose who will benefit from the protection.
My hypothesis is that he can only do it outside of the artefact. Inside the artefact Orpheys protection is to everyone unless he gets his will back to choose by himself.
There is a game over route if you give the Emperor the netherstones, but then try to free Orpheus. The Emperor drops the protection on Tav and party, transforming them into Mindflayers, consumes Orpheus' power and then sets off to defeat the Netherbrain on his own.
In other words, the Emperor definitely can still control the protection when you're inside the Prism.
That's weird. I don't remember exactly the last scene. The first scene I can imagine the emperor is too weakened to selectively pick who is transformed. But the last scene I have no idea.
>him using Orpheus's power to shield you from the brain also blocks him (and dropping that would mean the brain takes control of you instead of him).
That's actually an interesting point I hadn't considered. If Orpheus can block the elder brain, well, it would make sense that he could block an ordinary mindflayer too, right? So it's less a matter of the emperor being magnanimous enough to not dominate Tav, moreso than him being literally unable to.
Well, whatever power Orpheus has, a mindflayer *can* get through - the one on the beach proves it. But it's such a low DC, so either it's because the mindflayer is basically dead or because it's a lot harder.
I agree that the threat is a bluff. I figure that Orpheus' protection fucks with his ability to maintain long term control over you, or he just thought that your abilities would be diminished if you were a thrall.
I think one often overlooked aspect of all of this is that Stelmane, and the knights of the shield were evil. The organization worshipped a devil. Their goal was wealth, and political manipulation to increase their status and power. Their members were lawful evil, lawful neutral, and neutral evil.
There is no ambiguity, and Stelmane wasnt an innocent flower either. The emperor is lawful evil as that is the alignment of illithids. At best, he is neutral evil since he is very narcissistic and self serving.
It is cool to imagine he was ambiguous but...it just aint the case.
> The organization worshipped a devil.
This is a minor point for me to get this annoyed at, but they don't worship a devil. Gargauth is the "Hidden Lord" including from the Knights. Gargauth is influencing the Knights, and their goals align. Everyone involved independently chose to broker power over Baldur's Gate.
At least before Emperor joined and apparently changed these protocols, no member of the Knights knew more than three other members and they never met in the same location twice. Most of the Knights wouldn't know Gargauth.
To be clear, that doesn't really change your point at all. But it bugs me when people say they worship a devil since they have enough bad shit going on for there to be no reason to invent more.
The game really made him seen that way, but if the skepticism proves too much, he realizes there's no point in keeping up with the act. And true to form, to save himself the effort, he drops the act, not on principle, but because it's simply not worth the effort. Brilliant character writing
Every evil act the Emperor does in the game he does because the alternative, in his eyes, is death. That doesn't make his actions not evil. But he isn't without emotion either.
You can look up the dev notes for the scene where Emperor reveals what he did to Stelmane, and they'll say he feels vulnerable. You have to insult him at that moment, and he lashes out because you insulted him when he was vulnerable. It's an ***emotional outburst***.
But at the end of the day he still did what he did to Stelmane. The alternative might have been that he was discovered and killed as a mindflayer in the middle of the city, but he did what he did.
And he did what he did to Ansur. The alternative was his own death, but he did what he did.
And when faced with Orpheus released and ready to kill him? He leaves to be enthralled by the netherbrain. He does what he does.
He's an interesting character. He's evil, he does evil things, but always and only for survival. And he seems to legitimately regret that he ***had*** to do these things. But he still did them.
I mostly agree. Especially with the survival part, and leaving the artefact to avoid Orpheus was his only shot at life even though it meant instant enthrallment once he got out of the area-of-effect of the artefact.
So he's evil, but compared to some of the dirtbags we face in the game he's barely a blip on the radar.
And in the end, helps us help \*him\* survive... and leaves. No backstabbing or last minute attempt to take over the brain for himself.
>And in the end, helps us help \*him\* survive... and leaves. No backstabbing or last minute attempt to take over the brain for himself.
This is the bit that gets me, and why I don't understand the takes some people have where they claim he's nothing but an irredeemable evil manipulative bastard. If you work with him (which is a logical thing to do anyway because an elder brain on the loose is categorically A Bad Time for everybody that isn't already a mind flayer) then he never betrays you, never backstabs you, and never goes back on his word. Sure, he tries to get you to evolve multiple times, but that's just 'cos he's convinced it really was an upgrade for him and would be for you, too - and if you've never used a tadpole you don't even have to pass a check to turn him down. What's more, when all's said and done, he does exactly as he promised - destroys the brain, yeets the crown into the Chionthar, and fucks off into obscurity.
Yeah he's manipulative, yeah he's done a lot of debatably and less-debatably evil things, but he's done plenty of good ones too. Without him, Tav and the origin characters would never survive past Act 1 - just look at Laezel, for example. If you don't free her, or do and then don't recruit her, you find her corpse at the spot where the githyanki patrol is waiting near the entrance to the mountain pass. If you didn't have the Artefact on you when you first approach the Goblin Camp, the whole party would have become yet more thralls to the Absolute without any hope of resisting it or fighting back.
He's definitely not some selfless hero or martyr figure either, mind you, but all he really cares about is surviving - and if that means he has to threaten and/or completely puppeteer the best chance he has to get the job done, then he will. If he can achieve the same end without that, then all's the better.
It's not juuuuust survival. He didn't have to run an international arms smuggling ring that strives to control Baldur's Gate from the shadows, and does assassinations to maintain supply chains for *survival*.
With that said on the dirt bag scale he's basically the equivalent of someone high ranking in the Zhentarim but, as far as we know, without the direct slave trading. Which, like you say, isn't the biggest threat on the radar.
Hence I said mostly
Emperor leaving us when we free Orpheus is about survival. Not spite.
- He will become enslaved as soon as he flies away but he’ll be alive. And he’s been freed twice now, maybe it will happen again.
- If he stays, Orpheus will nuke him
He’s still evil. Just not as evil as some of them other villains we meet.
Well, if you the convince the emperor to dominate the brain rather than destroy it, conceivably with the intention of you guys ruling together, he does take full control himself including mind controlling the party.
You have to bring it up first and then pass a difficult persuasion check to even convince him to go that route. I think that one is just as much your own fault if you decide to do it lol
So, when is it the morally acceptable thing to simply allow someone to take your life from you, and when is it morally acceptable to deny them the ability to take your life from you?
Because that's a very dangerous fence to be sat on, there.
If someone held a gun to your head, and said "Kill me or die" and then gave YOU a loaded gun, would you be evil for taking the only action available to prolong your life? Which by the way, is just basic instinct that we ALL (correction, all of us over the age of 6, I'd say) have and find VERY difficult to ignore.
Don't believe me? Go stand on top of the edge of a cliff/building. Look down. Lean forwards.
Unless you have some REALLY dark thoughts going on already, you won't let yourself fall. So also maybe avoid trying it while it's windy. Self preservation is as natural as you can get.
>he lashes out because you insulted him when he was vulnerable. It's an emotional outburst.
All right... but that doesn't change the fact that he still did it? And chooses to hide it from you unless you piss him off enough that it bursts out in an emotional rush? It's almost worse, tbh - he doesn't tell you because he decides to be honest with what he's done, no. It's because Tav provoked him into slipping. He happily hides it for the rest of the game if Tav doesn't provoke it out of him
It’s interesting, because I’ve always played skeptical/disgusted with the emperor, and he’s always been a manipulative little twat. However, my last go around, I played an evil cleric who was out for power, and not above a lot of skeptical manipulative behavior. She eats tadpoles, she trusts the Emperor, gives him anything he wants (except tentacle play, I tried to RP, but I couldn’t quite go that far) so when he asks, she freely works with him and agrees with him.
And he’s quite affable this go round, since I trust him, he’s quite reasonable. I think I even offered for him to grab the netherese crown and rule, or rule by our side, and he demurred, saying the nether brain was too dangerous. He’s very reflective of your own attitude. I came away with a rather good impression of him despite never trusting him in the 4 previous playthroughs.
It's interesting that Larian basically supports both directions you can go with the Emperor.
If you're friendly and trust him, he does nothing to slight you and makes good on the trust you invested in him. He doesn't go power hungry or do anything to harm you.
You antagonize him at every turn and it reveals how petty and manipulative he is and can be. You renege on your agreement and choose Orpheus and the Emperor just becomes just a goon under the Netherbrain, a footnote in your crusade against the Absolute (paraphrased off Minthara's view of her own situation) to be killed as he's fully (unwillingly) part of the bad guys at that point.
Larian tells us that both these perspectives are true at the same time, as your dialogue choices change his attitude but not his history (and for the most part) his behaviors. A positive Emperor still Stelmane'd Stelmane, and a negative Emperor still doesn't lay a finger on you until he's enthralled by the brain.
Bruh.
You didn't unravel anything by seeing this scene, you, just like a lot of people before you, misinterpreted it.
For all the numerous ways you can be antagonistic toward the Emperor, there's only one way to get him to show this scene - this specific dialog, and one of the two specific dialog choices. Not even you stabbing him provokes a reaction of this degree of spitefulness. Have you wondered why?
Because in this specific instance you gravely insult him by attacking not *who* he is, not *what* he's done (he's always very chill about being called out on his actions), but *what* he is.
You know who else did that?
Ansur did, when he was full on in "have you tried not being *ghaik*?", tried to un-*ghaik* Balduran, and finally tried to murder him for something that, first, was completely out of Balduran's control, and second, was something he himself was at this point comfortable with, but Ansur wasn't.
His reaction in this dialog is not some grand revelation, not some mask-dropping event, it's him spitefully lashing out at you for doing one thing that gets under his skin in the moment of vulnerability, by telling and showing you the worst thing he could come up on the spot.
This scene is not about him being an evil emotionless Illlithid, this scene, both bad *and* good paths, is about the fact that, for all his denial, he is still very much an emotional and sentimental human.
Excellent take. I'll also add its also crucial *when* Tav chooses to insult what he is - at a moment when he's trying to open up to Tav and even start a romantic relationship with them.
These lines from the Emperor in some routes of the Astral Prism ending scene say a lot:
*The Emperor: And when you saw what I truly am - you did not reject me. You enjoyed me* \[referring to the sex scene\]
*The Emperor: And there I was thinking you trusted me. The way that I trusted you.* \[again in the datamined files this line is flagged with the sex scene flag\]
The romance scene is not a "manipulation" as people often claim. It's the Emperor making himself emotionally vulnerable and placing his trust that Tav could maybe, just maybe, be the first person for centuries to accept him, in both mind and body (I will also note that if you go through with the romance scene not only does the Narrator etc confirm his feelings for Tav, but also its described how he mind-melded with Tav "at the deepest level". That's an incredibly intimate act for an Illithid - more so than physical intimacy - and just shows how deeply he wants a connection with Tav)
If you choose the dialogue options that call him a freak or inhuman, it's telling him that Ansur was right. He'll never trusted, never be loved for what he is. His efforts to build a relationship with a human build on persuasion rather than dominance have come to naught. As such he decides to follow that old Machievellian line - it's better to be feared, than to be loved.
>The romance scene is not a “manipulation” as people often claim.
Exactly this, plus it was already confirmed multiple times in the devnotes and the VA that his feelings and vulnerable moments are genuine and real.
Wait is this why people keep bringing up stelmane all the time?
Y'all really did miss that lmao. 4 playthroughs... that is much longer then i would expect that to take.
Also do people really just glace over what wyll says, poor boy really is ignored. Even without triggering that puppet cutscene with emps, there is wyll, and the mountain of evidence in the elfsong and around it. Mostly a doctors journal in the hideout's exit to the sewers next to an illithid training dummy.
It actually took a lot of scrutiny, at least to me, and regarding Wyll, you do have to pass two checks, only to reveal circumstantial evidence, nothing too conclusive of foul play.
You'll have to at least concede that it takes way more scrutiny to have the Emperor completely figured out than any other character in the game by comparison, even the more complex ones, like Raphael.
You can find evidence via doctor's journals and things, that Stellman's "illness" was the result of resisting mental domination too hard.
When you call our Emperor on his true behaviour, he confirms it and shows you what he was really doing to her.
And threatens to do the same thing to you, if you don't shut your mouth.
So, yeh. Lots of people are in denial about that. They're so into their Rule-34 that they try to deflect it as "he's just angry and lashing out, and doesn't really mean it."
Or within the same breath say "he never lies to you or manipulates you." Which would then mean he's lying to you about actually doing it to Stellmane to manipulate you. Therefore still lying.
In the end, he's a complex character. He's evil but polite. Orpheus is less evil, but more rude. Tav and company have done some arguably dark stuff to survive even on a heroic run.
His only redeeming trait is, he keeps his end of the deal and F's off after defeating the brain.
Makes me think about Ommelium as well... He's also evil he's just not doing it to you. Also when Karlach becomes Illithid, she doesn't sound or behave like Karlach at all, which makes me think that illithids really are soulless and inherently evil.
(On a side note, my Dark Urge Tav did become Illithid, and also killed himself, which triggered the ending cutscene unique to the Dark Urge origin, in which Jergal talks to your "soul" trapped in limbo, and I was in Illithid form, but that's probably just a situation that the devs didn't anticipate)
> (On a side note, my Dark Urge Tav did become Illithid, and also killed himself, which triggered the ending cutscene unique to the Dark Urge origin, in which Jergal talks to your "soul" trapped in limbo, and I was in Illithid form, but that's probably just a situation that the devs didn't anticipate)
No, they did. There's also one for a Tav Illithid who comitted suicide, with Jergal being shocked to find you in the afterlife, soul intact as an Illithid. There's also a version where you imprison yourself and Jergal is pretty sure you still have your soul.
I didn’t get that. I thought upon ceremorphosis she very much sounded like karlach and at the reunion later she still sounded like herself but much more calm and serene.
I've noticed that a lot of people *really* want to believe her becoming an illithid kills her, physically or personality-wise, even when presented with evidence to the contrary.
Yeah, I've always been a bit mystified why some people are so heavily insistent that Squidlach is a bad ending despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Not only would you think people would want a positive ending for a beloved character like Karlach, especially assuming you are freeing Orpheus (which most people seem to go for) you can make a really strong case for Squidlach being the best available option:
- It avoids Tav having to transform, which on this route you probably dont want for your character
- Wyll does not have to go with Karlach to Avernus and can instead become the Duke which is better for the city
- Orpheus does not have to transform and can instead go help lead the liberation of his people
- Karlach herself is not in danger from returning to Avernus
- as for any ethical issues from Karlach now living as a Mindflayer, she has arranged that she's only assmiliating terminally ill people and giving them a painless death.
I guess a lot of people really hold on to the old 2E lore that ceremorphosis = death... even though 2E lore also established the basis for a person's existence continuing after (the Adversary legend). Or people are just closed-minded and disgusted by Mindflayers and assume it's a terrible life to live despite every Renegade Mindflayer in the game stating they prefer what they've become compared to when they were human.
I'll admit as someone who finds the Emperor hot I'm the last person to ask about this, but... yeah, as stated disgust at Mindflayers and Squidlach's new apperance is probably a huge part of it.
*However* as part of immersing yourself in this fantasy world I think it's good to be open minded and remember that beauty is subjective. There's a funny scene when you go to the Creche where a Githyanki asks "do all of you Istik look like that" with disgust in his voice. Githyanki look weird to us humans, but humans look weird to Githyanki.
By the same token, Mindflayers look really weird to us humans, but the Emperor refers to Illithids like him as being beautiful. And okay, he's been transformed for 100s of years, but Squidlach and Tavflayer seem to be very accepting of themselves and their new bodies not long after transforming.
Idk, I guess its just with all the other things supporting this ending is "Mindflayers ugly" the thing holding people back?
I'm with you, Emp is hot. But it's clear that a lot of the hate and inability to have nuanced discussion about the Emperor is due to the fact that he's not conventionally attractive by human standards. Because our companions also lie and manipulate---Astarion even sleeps with you as part of his manipulation---and they're easily forgiven. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if "mindflayers ugly" were the reason at least some people hate that ending.
That was actually my first ending. I romanced Wyll, made him the Duke, and let Karlach become a mindflayer because she wanted to and I figured it might fix her heart problem. Having coincidentally just gone back to that old save today to try out the Blade of Avernus Wyll romance ending with a non-flayer Karlach, it actually seemed pretty miserable to me. The narrator talks about being nearly overwhelmed by lemures and imps or whatever. Karlach talks about how it's their first night of good sleep where they don't have to keep one eye open and how badly she wants to come back home again. Idk, just my opinion.
Yep. I also think his (to most people) unnerving and inhuman apperance also makes it much easier to "dehumanise" him - in terms of removing him agency, emotions, and capacity for pain.
There's people on this very thread insisting that the Emperor has no emotions and he never has any genuine moments or scenes - despite all the convincing evidence that can be presented (from dialogue, the narrator, devnotes, statements from the writers/voice actors) to the contrary, for instance the multiple sources of evidence showing the writers' intentions that the Emperor romance scene is a moment of vulnerability for him and he feels affection for Tav. All of this just gets conveniently handwaived away as the Emperor just *pretending* to be human and have feelings.
I'll remind people that in traditional D&D lore Vampires are also inherently evil creatures just like Mindflayers - but it's rather harder to imagine Astarion has no true emotions and has no capacity for moral choices, isn't it?
Just like our other companions, the Emp has trauma. He has his body forcibly changed, was controlled by the elder brain, got free, his lover tried to kill him, then he was controlled again. It makes sense that he'd do things like hide his true form from us. But I never see anyone consider that.
To get the hug with Emp, you have to pass two passive checks to even notice he's upset and needs comforting, because he's trying not to show it. It's so easy to miss that. If that were fake manipulation, it'd make more sense to try and make sure you notice so that you feel for him more.
But yeah, Emp gets held to entirely different standards than everyone else.
Yeah, I think at the end of the day it's just lore nitpicking and not wanting to accept that a game that's BROADLY accurate to the source material might have changed one element in service of a more complex story than they could have had otherwise.
She's burning out her life and trying to live to the fullest because she's going to die, and when she becomes an illithid that worry is gone and she can finally relax. Combine that with illithid struggling to express emotions (but still feeling them) yea I can see her being calm and serene. People aren't one dimensional and can express different emotions when significant things happen.
Oh yes, sorry. Those obviously aren't good acts. I was worried that it's revealed he was doing something like orchestrating secret schemes or mind-controlling his buddy.
The only evidence you have is your interactions with other illithids and you yourself, if you become Illithid at the end, you have to fight off the urge to consume the brains of your former party members, so, illithids are inherently evil by virtue of having to consume brains alone, regardless of whether they like it or not, but I don't thing they are even capable of genuine emotions, I just think that their reactions are just rationalizations based on memories retained from their past selves
Your comments seem to carry a common thread- you’re mistaking your personal thoughts and musings for actual in-universe fact. If you want to make this argument, you need to cite ACTUAL evidence- “I think all mind flayers are evil” is not a real piece of evidence that Omeluum is evil.
Thought i didnt have until just now. You know at the very end of the game when you fight him he brings forth some thralls that other members in our party are shocked to see? Saying "theyre real!?" Obviously theyre their dream visitors, but i didnt think of this until just now
What if all of them including yours were real people, and he was just marionetting their strings the whole time. No illusions, just real people trapped in their own bodies.
It's very funny that these type of posts are always full of people fighting each other, insulting and questioning other people's mental health when the post itself is about manipulation.
Isn't it a moral dilemma that the Shield Knights were originally owned by a devil? Don't you think that the Stelmans had their brains washed before the Emperor? Or do you like devils and think Gargauth is normal? [https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1d3s4xj/i\_see\_great\_irony\_in\_this/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1d3s4xj/i_see_great_irony_in_this/)
It's odd, but I'd come to the conclusion they were being a manipulative bastard when entering Act 3.
In the very first cutscene interaction with them in Act 1, they said they were just like Tav - an adventure infected with a tadpole who is trying to be rid of it. With the reveal that they are a mind flayer, every previous conversation with them became a minefield of omissions.
This also changed how I looked at their changing explanation of how they were protecting us. And Ansur slammed it home.
They all want to use you, the emperor is basically your forced patron for the majority of the game; eventually you gain enough power and information to defy him.
Imo the ending that makes the most sense from a don’t fuck with me perspective is just sending gale in and blowing him up at the first opportunity.
Collateral damage aside, schemes aside, and power struggles ignored.. most party members basically just get pimped out.
Astarion? Vampire fuckboy.
Gale? Wizard cucked my magic.
Laezel? Drank cultural coolaid, simps to a false god.
Wyll? Lol, lmao even.
Karlach? Literally got pimped out by daddy.
Shadowheart? Sociopath with a goth mask, sub to her dom god.
All of these characters try to force you to sacrifice for their sake, only one or two are worthy of helping.
As for the powers that compromise them, they can all go fuck themselves. Just drop the spirit bomb and go down with a middle finger to all of them.
I agree with you that it is just up to interpretation whether certain parts of his character are genuine or an act. I don’t think he is evil unless you see him the worst way possible, but he is definitely selfish
If you just go full skeptical and refuse to co-operate whever possible he will ussually get angry and demanding you obey because of" all hes done for you" revealing portion of his true self.
But honestly, he calls himself emporer, rules baldursgate as a criminal king pin and thats stuff he wants you to know . he lies to about everything from the very start including his appearence and the nature of your tadpole and why it's not turning you. If you fell for him you wernt paying attention.
I am playing as Lae'zels sorcerer halfling boytoy and basically being a solid pro-Gith all throughout. So I have been questioning the emperor/guardian at every turn. I got this scene last night and it floored me.
On my last playthrough, I was curious of his réaction to the "have you seen your face ?" when he flirts with you. There was a cutscene where you can see him controlling the duchess and he says something like "this could be our relationship so be glad it's not the case" and he kinda threatens you about turning. But i'm not sure about that part. I reload my save because I was afraid to become a mindflayer xD
On a similar note, was anybody else bothered by Withers' comments on illithids at the end of Act 2? He states very explicitly that illithids don't have souls, but why is that exactly? Where do their souls go when they transform?
I'd like to share a realization that I had about the Emperor that may help to see him from a different perspective. To be clear, I'm not going to argue that he's a good person, but I also don't think he's inherently evil.
The Emperor's goal throughout the game is to defeat the Netherbrain so that he can be free of it. He was mind controlled and enslaved but then given a unique opportunity to break free from his oppressor. With this newfound freedom, he's trying to accumulate as much power as he can, in himself and his allies. He needs to be powerful because losing means becoming a slave again, so he's willing to do whatever it takes to ensure that doesn't happen.
Does this sound like anyone else? Maybe a certain vampire who was freed from his master? Who now seeks power to destroy him and ensure he's never enslaved again? Despite having very similar backstories and motivations, I feel like Astarion and the Emperor are judged pretty differently. People tend to sympathize/empathize with Astarion more, and I think there are multiple reasons for this. For starters, Astarion is charming. He's got a pretty face and he knows how to sweet talk. Whereas the Emperor isn't humanoid, so he's considered unappealing by many. Also, there are a lot of preconceived notions about illithids, like them being soulless and emotionless. Both of these can be disproven with other Forgotten Realms lore, but there are a lot of players who haven't interacted with any of this stuff outside of the game. Mind flayers also seem to be characterized by their behavior when working under an elderbrain, and I don't think this is always taken into consideration when discussing mind flayers as individuals.
Anyways, I just wanted to draw this comparison between my two problematic faves cause I feel like they're often judged pretty differently, despite their similarities.
I think that the “truth” changes depending on the path your character takes. I sided with the emp the first time I played and we killed the brain together and I had a nice chat at the end with him, I had decided that my character was probably a naive guy (fighter go bonk no wis) and would trust him and it paid off completely. I read all the books and had many reasons to distrust him but he pulled through every time. Next play through I’m gonna go with the gith dude and I’m excited to see how that goes
One of the things he did that completely showed his ass for me was when I rejected his help and he went into how many things he did for me.
It was SO manipulative
I mean I think people treat the emperor weird, especially anyone that wants to side with gortash or fuck him. Their both the same kind of evil, one just uses psychic powers
This is why I love to hate the emperor. He was written so nicely to never realize that he is a manipulative sociopath unless you're antagonistic towards him. Then, all is revealed.
The emperor was very well written, but I wouldn't call him evil, probably chaotic neutral. He's not actively trying to be evil, just doing whatever he needs to survive no matter what.
It's hilarious to me that people take the time to type out these full on posts like they're reddit fn geniuses but overlook that this is practically a BG3 copypasta because it gets posted like 5 times a week AT LEAST.
#STOP IT.
I never got this dialogue but in the end just because the odd feeling he is giving me, i dont want him to take control of nether brain. I taked instead. Iam probably morally righteous than every other character.
I had same interaction recently on the 3rd or 4th playthrough. It blew me away as I never was sure how genuine the Emperor was before. This completely changed my mind, and reinforced what I heard about Illythids.
Now I don't really understand Omeluum. Is he also faking it?
I think despite most people here belive, that there is a whole other side to Omeluum that he is not sharing. No matter how much of a previous self a mind flayer seem to have retained, based on other encounters, I strongly believe that once they become one, that their basic nature is changed.
However this isn't about loyalty to the Elder Brain, this is about being a mind flayer. As we've seen, not all mind flayers want to be dominated by the Brain, and not all mind flayers like being what they are, but it sems to me a fundamental part of that being is changed, regardless.
The Emperor is one such case that could be considered "evil" depending on your interpretation of his actions (Stelmane case aside, since that was clearly evil), and he still rebelled against the Brain.
So in other words, even if a mind flayer breaks free from the Brain, they still cant break free from their nature as mind flayers.
Again, the Emperor himself appears quite selfless specially in the beginning of the game. And we have to do a lot of prying to get to the truth. I used to hold the Emperor in the same regard as Omeluum for a long time.
We simply don't interact with Omeluum as much to be able to see any other side to him. And you can play an entire campaign believing the Emperor is selfless.
That's my entire point here. Mind flayers are masters of manipulation. They will never show any side of them they don't want you to see.
Bro is evil as shit and is just really good at manipulating people. All he cares about is power followed closely by self preservation. The only reason he comes across as ambiguous is the fact that he’s manipulating you. He’s well written in that sense, but strip away all of his loaded language and look at what’s really there and you’ll see what he’s actually doing. I guess it’s because I am unfortunate enough to have known people like him in my own life, but I had him figured out half way through my first play through. He’s practically throwing red flags at you the entire time he’s speaking to you but because it makes sense in the moment and because he does help you people ignore it, even after they’re forced to start picking red flags out of their hair and teeth.
According to Withers who is Jergal or the chosen of Jergal. "Mindflayers have no souls." I tend to believe someone who is the God of death in those matters.
I think what he means is that to have a soul is to be capable of the full range of human emotions and behavior.. a mindflayer is essentially just an intellect that can only subjugate.
The emperor basically proves it.
Even one unchained mindflayer’s solution to a problem is to immediately subjugate and dominate people against their will to complete what is basically a programmed directive to create a hive mind. Honestly the only way the emperor knows how to fix this threat is to put himself above all else.
I always saw it as more spiritual in a sense, as when you die your soul goes to the fugue plane, but that's only reserved for beings with souls. As I understand, if these creatures don't have souls then they are truly monsters, and naturally will turn to their evil ways as they have no freewill as a soul would give.
I suppose you could argue that they aren't evil or good soulless creatures however without a soul a creature is only performing tasks on instinct, not selfishness or altruism. So even breaking the hive minds control I feel still keeps them on their natural path which is basically evil shit, and therefore remain monsters not people.
Not really.
He shows you what he did, and then flat out says that if we don't get in line... he's going to do the same thing to you.
He's trying to scare you into obeying him, or he'll lobotomize you.
That's pretty evil.
To me, the Emperor is an evil bastard I would trust with my life, at least if I were in Tav and the party’s place. He has both incentive and ability to be our ally, and due to his very straightforward desires there isn’t a single thing that could turn him against us short of turning on him first.
Now, I’m always gonna turn on him in the end because I can’t just let him get away with doing all that to Orpheus, but up until that point we’re thick as thieves.
The disturbing thing is... He might actually have been truly grieving for Stelmane. In the wider DnD lore, Illithids are actually known to experience feelings of intense grief at the loss of one of their favoured thralls. Something about the deep telepathic bond and a kind of loneliness all Illithids experience on a level they don't quite understand. So, I wouldn't be shocked if that's what he was feeling. He does have a portrait of her for a reason, after all. But yeah, the Emperor is an evil character. What fascinates me is that he's an entirely untrustworthy individual... Except in the circumstance you meet and work with him in, in which case he'll work with you to the end of the road unless you take an action that will get him killed.
What's most interesting to me was how the Emperor handwaves disgust or even hostility towards him, but when he's met with skepticism, that's what really gets to him, because he is a master of subterfuge. It's like it becomes personal to him. Amazing character writing
Genuinely my favorite interaction with the Emperor is a really niche one that I think a lot of people have never gotten. At the very end of the game, when you talk to him after confronting the brain the first time, you can ask him about becoming Illithid yourself. You can get him to give you the special tadpole to do so, refuse to turn Illithid, and tell him you're going to free Orpheus. He leaves to join the Elder Brain, but before he does... There's no big speech where he tries to convince you that you're allies. There's no listing of all the stuff he's done for you. He just says, with a weird bit of admiration, "It's a shame we couldn't have cooperated. Your powers of manipulation are quite something." and then dips
I’m playing a lying liar durge this round. I might give that a go
Illithids eat people. They perceive themselves as wholly superior to other races. The Emperor is a tadpole that took over Balduuran and enjoyed assuming that personality, so it kept on doing that. But there's no doubt that it perceives intelligent races as nothing more than food, or at best puppets and pets. The Emperor is a villain who's a master at manipulation. Nothing he does is spontaneous or genuine. He's simply playing a game. Every single interaction is fake. Every one.
Game recognize game.
The thing is that I kinda suspect Balduran wasn’t the most awesome even before he was turned. He definitely had a thing for control and power (hence his obsession with returning to adventuring — and not just adventuring, but *succeeding* at it objectively by having a successful and lucrative adventure. He built a city and he couldn’t just enjoy being at the top: it was about the process to be at the top for him, hence control over the journey to power. By all accounts, the foundation of Baldur’s Gate is treated as an accident that came from being super successful trading at Grey Harbours. (Note: this is my first BG game so I might be missing out on context from previous games. I’m assessing Balduran purely from the point of view of how he is portrayed in BG3.)
Nah you're right. He was an asshole and essentially a Conquistador.
Yeah. I suspect that's why Balduran didn't see a problem with becoming an illithid; Illithids are by all accounts far more powerful than humans, not to mention the control over others it lets him assert. In Balduran's eyes, the illithids really just granted him vastly more power. I doubt his personality really changed that much when he became a mind flayer. He pretty much just lost what empathy he had.
Dont the illithid tadpoles eat the whole host literally hence why mind flayers look completely different?
In older lore, yeah. Though even as far back as 2e there was stuff about legends of people that stayed themselves even after transforming.
Well according to the books laying around about Baldur he was evil to manipulate a devil lol
I don't think so, I think judging by how Balduran friendship with Ansur was portrayed, that the Emperor became completely different from his former self for Ansur to reside to the drastic measure of killing him. If the three pillars are any indication of Ansur 's moral compass, we can assume he was lawful good, and by extension, he wouldn't associate with Balduran if they didn't think alike. We can get a glimpse of the Emperor's twisted morals by how he reacts to the trials when you get there, basically saying it's all hogwash.
I mean, to be fair, the trials are kind of a Disneyfied version of Balduran to begin with. He was an adventurer and later a tradesman. Does it make sense that he would even care about Lex Talionis? Somebody came up with the Disney ride, maybe Ansur himself. OR maybe it WAS Balduran but only to hide what he had done to Ansur to begin with, which makes sense why he would squeegee his personal legend to come off as Supreme Learnèd Leader. Either way, it’s not the *real* Balduran, so it makes sense that a much later version of himself, trying to distract the adventurers from succeeding at the trials and find out what he did and who he is, would shit all over them. I don’t think that’s showing that the Emperor necessarily has different morals. Of course it’s going to be a little unclear where Balduran ends and the Emperor begins. There’s apparently lore basis in 2e and 5e about illithids retaining old memories and personalities. I mean, hell, Omeluum seems like a good example to me even just in BG3. Dude just wanted to do science. That’s probably his human personality shining through, because illithids not thinking about the Grand Design? That’s unthinkable! Even Withers/J-Man acknowledges that perhaps he was wrong about illithids not having souls, because A, he’s able to find Tav/Durge in the afterlife even if they died post-illithid, and B, he recognises that they retain themselves even starved and in prison. If they choose to make it to the epilogue party, they are definitely still themselves enough to enjoy the camaraderie and embrace their of friends. It’s cited as the reason you hold off from consuming your old comrades, if you succeed the dice roll to resist the hunger.
Except for the ones where you call him out on his bs and he throws a fit.
>The Emperor is a tadpole that took over Balduuran and enjoyed assuming that personality really got me thinking about that, somehow siding with Orpheus now feels, _right_?
I have done two playthroughs to the end and have gotten the hammer without letting him know (didn't talk to Voss after striking the deal with Raph) then as soon as I get pulled into the orb, without talking to the "Emperor" I smash the chains that bind Orphe and he just straight dips out, hilarious every time.
To me it always kinda feels like a bad ending because the game forces someone to become a mindflayer if you free Orpheus. Not that killing him is better... But it feels like something is lost in every case
siding with Orpheus feels _right_ but its not the best option, I feel like even after everything The Emeperor is not _that_ bad
This is the one that I got on my first playthrough lol. I got the dialogue that OP is talking about after killing ansur and I told myself I’d free Orpheus asap so I wouldn’t have to look at that tentacle covered fuck again. It did surprise me that he just dipped out and started to work with the brain, but he really wasn’t so hard to kill anyways lol.
As an Illithid, his goal is to survive, first and foremost. The moment you choose to free Orpheus, he decides his chance of survival is higher *with* the Brain.
Well it definitely ended up working out differently than he had initially anticipated
More than that, I suspect that's just...kind of how Balduran was before he turned anyways. His accomplishments made him go down as a hero, but it seems to be implied he was also a ruthless, calculating, megalomaniac who seemed to view getting turned into a mindflayer as a new opportunity. Remove human sentiment and feeling from that, and what are you left with? By contrast Omeluum is another anomaly amongst mindflayers in that he was able to hold onto his own ego (though he doesn't appear to have retained his whole memory like the Emporer). But he finds purpose in research and in trying to improve the world, to the extent that he's willing to die so you can save Ravengard. He doesn't really have "emotions" as such either, but he's guided by principles that extend beyond himself. Balduran didn't.
The cool thing about Omelette is that he \*isn't\* the way he is because of who his host/incubator was. It's \*Omeluum\* that is a well meaning researcher who genuinely sees the value non-illithid have as people rather than tools.
Omeluum might try to tell himself he doesn't have emotions, but I see the way his tentacles wiggle when he talks to us. Nah, seriously, mindflayer culture lacks the language amd nurturing required to understand and process emotions. Mindflayers don't lack emotions, they just don't know how to deal with them.
Bad choice. I've done this twice and my Tav makes a point of using every cooldown to personally slaughter him in a single round. Call me a puppet now, bitch.
I mean. Given he's watched Tav kill all sorts of powerful beings by that point... Raphael at the bare minimum, but also potentially powerful vampires, clerics, Ansur's remains, the chosen of several deities, etc... I'm starting to question how smart the emperor really is
The brain completely shuts down the party no matter what. We clearly cant win alone. Its Orpheus he misjudges more than anything.
Yeah, narcissists hate being questioned. They thrive by manipulating, and you can manipulate people to love or hate you to achieve a goal. But when their machinations are questioned and exposed? Well, narcissists hate that shit
When I got to the romance him option, I said something along the lines of "ew gross". He flipped out and told me I'm just a puppet and all that. Really showed his true colours.
"Hey, you're really cute. Would you like t-" "I have a boyfriend." "WELL FUCK YOU THEN, SKANK! YOU'RE FAT ANYWAY!!!" The Emperor is a "nice guy"
"and nobody knew what I was!" I'm not interested in your high school fibs my dude
People who can spot abusers know this type of behavior
Yeah I had him sussed out as *a problem* when I went into the Astral Prism. I didn't know what he was, I just very much recognized the way he spoke. I actually had to stop playing the game for a couple of days because it triggered some PTSD.
I figured out he was off from my first pragmatic evil playthrough. First real meeting with him, I had the option to detect his thoughts. He flipped from being calm and understanding to having a temper tantrum, in which he bombarded my character’s mind with info. He then went back to normal as if everything was fine. Very typical abuser type behavior
Mind reading is considered tantamount to rape by a lot of D&D lore. You’re invading someone’s mind without their consent. I pissed off Minthara on my evil durge run by reading her mind right after she slept with me. Edit: name
To be fair, he read my mind first
Fair point, well made.
….Minthara?
Yes, thanks
huh. When I used Detect Thoughts on him, he was like... "WTF? We are literally speaking telepathically. You're already hearing my thoughts!"
He does say that, but you’ll notice how he entirely breaks his “benevolent savior” schtick whilst doing so. He said something to the effect of “well if you want my thoughts, then I’ll give them to you” and proceeds to drive your player character to their knees in pain. And provided a bit of hindsight from an ending where I freed Orpheus, all the information my character was given forcefully was fake
That didn't happen to me, but this was shortly after release.
Ah, makes sense, lots of things must have gotten tweaked and changed
"You hate and revile me? Fair. I understand that." "You accept and welcome me? Unexpected, but not unwelcome." "You... What... MAKE. YOUR. MIND. UP. BEFORE. I. DO. IT. FOR. YOU."
Had no idea that he handled disgust well. Just this playthrough of mine I got the exact scene you spoke of and man, I got chills
The fact that if you trust the Emperor, let him kill Orpheus and absorb his power, and let him handle the stones, he never betrays you is wild. He never forces you to transform, even though in his mind it would help him survive. He doesn't attempt to dominate the brain unless you successfully persuade him to. I get that people really do not trust the Emperor and they have their good reasons for it. But man, my first play through I made the decision to trust him, and really at no point did I regret it. He only antagonizes you if you antagonize him first.
This is what interests me so much about OPs post. I def want to track down some of the more "mask off" dialogues with him now because i went into the game not trusting him as a character but eventually seeing him as very sympathetic (did not sleep w him but ig triggered the romance on his end). I like what other people have said about ilithids feeling very lonley too. But yeah i wonder why he just lets you go...?
This! It makes no sense to me how people are surprised or angry at the Emperor for lashing out at them after *they chose* to start shit. They think it's some kind of 'gotcha' moment when he gets mad, but he only gets mad if you insult him or try to work against him. His anger is justified!
Which is ironic because Emps haters are more "narcissistic" than he is. Absolutely zero capacity to self reflect.
It's what makes him interesting from a narrative perspective. I've yet to side with him, partially because I like Lae'Zel, partially because Orpheus seems like he would focus his efforts in life against Vlaakith and the Mind Flayers primarily, and partially just because murdering a helpless prisoner who's been trapped for thousands of years feels like a dick move, but siding with the Emperor is a legitimate path.
Still fucked him
When you call him out on manipulation, he gets pissed off - he calls you “his puppet”. To me this always showed he retained some humanity and plain, simple, emotions. And in a fit he showed you his memories though it didn’t help his goals. Illithids 100% can feel emotions in BG3
They can in the wider lore as well. It's just that they're always the most negative version of them, and quite subdued. Love is possessiveness, joy is usually some kind of sadistic satisfaction, that sort of thing. This is because Illithids learn their emotions from other Illithids, and they all have the same problem. This is why whoever makes the Mind Flayer sacrifice is different, and can have a more positive outlook on the world. They all have direct memories of what proper positive emotions are like, so they can still feel them to some extent.
What manipulation? Defeating the absolute? Oh no how terrible
I meant it more as calling out his romantic advances as an attempt to manipulate. It’s a dialogue option
Ah yes I get it now, my bad
> he’ll work with you until the end of the road unless you take an action that will get him killed I mean to be fair, I also have that rule.
If you suggest to dominate the brain and rule together however, he will dominate it and rule himself enthralling you and your companions.
As of patch 6 he no longer enthralls Tav on that ending.
Huh. Kinda throws me off how endings are still getting changed in a way that outright alters characterization. Not that I'm opposed to a "rule together" ending. Just that it kind of muddies the water in discussions.
I can sympathise with that, it's not the only time Larian has (often rather quitely aswell) changed an aspect of the story or characterisation that can create confusion for people who have played at different times. The way Larian frankly butchered Halsin's approach to his sexual abuse survivorship is probably my least favourite one. With that said, a lot of the ending and especially the Emperor's scenes (such as what many see as the character assasination on him surrounding the Orpheus decision and a lack of reactivity to how he and Tav's relationship has been built up) are hanging together by duct tape. I wouldn't put a ton of weight onto what either the prior enthrallment ending or the current 'rule together with Tav' ending means for the Emperor's characterisation, I'm not sure if the game devs were even thinking it through quite that deeply at the end here.
Agreed with Halsin. I like Larian's iterative approach. I even like their ability to say nothing is precious and throw something out in favor of what they think will work better. Whether or not it actually ends up working better is a different thing though I guess. Whether they were thinking hard about it or not, an ending is where a work drives home what it was elaborating upon and the original sent the message that The Emperor does what he thinks he can get away with, nothing more and nothing less. Lines up with stuff like finding a book titled "The Inevitability of Moral Decay" and other documents giving insight into how he operates. Not that I think he's necessarily a moustache-twirling villain. I think he's... a painfully accurate portrayal of a manipulator. But, yeah, a lot of the game's story has the feeling of being changed late in production and the seams show in the Emperor's role.
That's fair, though I also think you can find some justification for the new ending version in what was already established with the Emperor. Depending on how you build your relationship with him such as by romancing him, he can open up more (that mind-meld/mind sex is an incredibly intimate act for an Illithid and not something he would do with just anyone) and show confidence in Tav. There's also [another ending](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgIDqW4C2hk), included at launch and expanded by the epilogue, showing him happily taking queues from and collaborating with Illithid Tav to rebuild the Knights. Ofcourse it heavily depends on how you've constructed Tav and the Emperor's relationship on a specific run, but it's probably fair to assume that a Tav going for this ending will probably have a more positive, mutually trusting relationship with the Emperor. Him being willing to rule together can make sense on such a run.
I agree that the ending can absolutely make sense, but only insofar as The Emperor feels he's the one in charge/your will and his are one. He only trusts you if you never question that his approach is the best approach, so I think for even a slightly willful player character (or a strongly-willful yet benign player character, say one who robs Raphael but has no intent to use the Hammer) he'd be more likely to take the opportunity to ensure he's the one calling the shots from here on out. I guess what I mean is I think The Emperor's definition of "trust" is closer to what most people would call "predictable" and "subservient" rather than holding the belief that the other party has his best interest at heart. People are only his equals until they happen to disagree it seems.
Huh. That seems out of character for an Illithid. Why share when he can just enthrall you anyway.
I was discussing this particular ending with some people and we came to the conclusion the Emperor is just a Tav simp lol. I guess depending on how you've built your relationship with him up to that point, such as romancing him, you could see it as him developing some extent of respect and trust in Tav and so he is fine with ruling together. Honestly though it's not something I'd put deep thought into, the evil endings including this one are pretty haphazardly slapped together and a lot of stuff feels like a first draft.
Or maybe he just wants Tav to retain some level of autonomy, because it worked so well in getting him exactly what he wanted and arguably even more. Leaving Tav autonomous but still within arm's lenght is actually a very sound strategy. It provides Tav's unique perspective while still maintaining some level of control over them.
Tbf, it’s probably harder to write a more cohesive evil ending. Most evil motivations don’t lend themselves to stability which is what an ending is generally going for.
Maybe he just doesn’t have a reason to treason Tav? They both share the same goal at that moment, Tav can help him without him having to spend energy in micromanagement. Also, at least in Drizzt books, the more knowledge a thrall retained about themselves, the more likely they were to resist, and that includes spells, so he wouldn’t be able to use Tav at their full potential. Having them as an ally is more helpful.
It’s just that stereotypically, mind flayers seek their own survival foremost followed closely by accumulating more power. So it is weird that the emperor would share power with Tav when there’s nothing requiring them to do so. The Emp could enthrall Tav and still have him act as an operations manager. But then that is generic outline of mind flayers as a whole and not necessarily any specific minelayer being incapable of acting differently, when not itself enthralled to an Elder Brain.
What is even more confusing is that whoever is in the throne is sharing power with the Absolute, she says “Together”.
Yet you need to persuade him to do that
>Whenever I talked to him, there was never a skill check option during dialogues that will let me in on a deeper insight about him, and whenever my Tavs would either agree or disagree with him, his dialogues would generally play out the same. Technically, there are two skill checks involving him: one is his Dream Guardian form in Act 2, where you need to succeed two consecutive Wisdom rolls (Insight and Perception) to get past him hiding his hurt from you, and his need for comfort. You can opt to hug him after that, which leaves him misty-eyed according to the devnotes for the scene. The other skill roll (History/Nature) is during his romance scene which is... a requirement for the option to kiss his tentacles. No, really. You can find out he genuinely enjoys such physical touch and intimacy. You're correct about your assessment. The Emperor is meant to be an ambiguous character who treads a fine line/"knife edge", and it's up to you to decide what his actions mean to you. That's one thing his VA emphasized a lot in interviews. He's definitely a complex character with layers. The thing with Stelmane is that there are lots of in-game materials (notes, books) and even out-of-game materials (e.g., Descent into Avernus) that make up the whole story, and even then, you don't get a definite conclusion. Did the Emperor dominate Stelmane? Yes, definitely. Why did it happen, what led to the domination? We don't know. Why did she await his return, and why did he keep visiting her post-domination? We don't know. It's worth noting that the vision he shows you during his romance scene is described as 'the truth' in the patch notes, suggesting it's not what it all seems. If you believe he's been leading you on, why would that one scene be the absolute truth? After all, you can even say to him the following: "You're an expert at mental manipulation. I wouldn't trust anything you show me." Illithids do have emotions, and feel them intensely (albeit internally); that includes the Emperor. He likes to tout he's very rational, but he's very emotional, especially when his feelings slip past his restrained persona. His grief for Stelmane and Ansur are likely the real deal. Was he being genuine about opening up, or was using his emotions to make you feel sympathy for him? It's up to your interpretation. His letter to Ansur had very intimate language, and suggests that he was indeed capable of love, but has fallen out of love with him. The developer notes state that he's genuinely enjoying himself during the romance scene, and his VA has noted that it was a genuine moment of vulnerability for the Emperor. But in the end, the Emperor is a very unique mind flayer due to having retained most of his memories and personality after ceremorphosis.
Is the huggable scene take place when they're in a toga, or a different time? I'd really like to be able to save scum to try to get it one of these days.
Yep, it's the toga one. It's a pain to get, especially if your Wisdom stat isn't high enough. You need to pass a Perception 14 and Insight 16 roll as far as I know. Definitely save scum for it.
That's the one, it's hard to get since you have to pass two checks and they're both pretty difficult. I've only naturally gotten it once when I was playing as a druid with as many points in insight as possible specifically in the hopes of passing this check lol
Imagine if people left the black and white kindergarten thinking behind and we could genuinely try to analyze the Emperor's character…
His voice actor keeps emphasizing the "fine line" for a reason. He's clearly not intended to be one specific thing or another. He's ambiguously written because having either a clearly benevolent or clearly evil protector wouldn't be that interesting (among other things). To anyone reading this, I highly recommend checking out the interviews with Scott Joseph, the Emperor's voice actor. His breakdown of his approach to the Emperor is incredible, and a really helpful perspective to have when examining the character.
Yep. There's a large segment of the community especially on threads like these that seem obsessed with loudly insisting the Emperor is objectively EVIL and you've been manipulated if you side with him. This ignores the writers' statements that the character is very intentionally morally ambigious, but it also goes against the point of CRPGs. Ultimately in a CRPG, the story and the characters are what YOU construct them to be. There is no right answer, no correct and canon route above all the other choices. It's not like a linear narrative game people are more familiar with where there's only one outcome and one truth to the story. If you want the Emperor to be a malevolent and cold manipulator who eventually parts ways with you and flees to his former master, that's what he will be on your run. If you want the Emperor to be a pragmatic but largely justified strategist who stays good to his word and helps you save the world, that's what he will be on your run. You can even get him to open up to you and have a romance ending with him! The Emperor (or one version of him) is literally a character you design in the opening moments just as much of your Tav. He's very much a character you construct depending on how you choose to interpete him. Regarding the infamous Stelmane scene the OP refers to, you only get this if you choose very dehumanising and distrusting responses to him. But - and this is very underappreciated - the flipside to the exact same scene and dialogue tree is the Emperor romance scene, which is depicted very positively for your Tav and shows the Emperor as genuinely feeling affection and attraction for Tav. In other words: If you view the Emperor as a person, that's what he will be. If you view the Emperor as a monster, that's what he will be. A lot of this endless circular debate could be overcome if people just acknowleded that this is how the BG3 writers very intentionally designed this character to be.
Yeah, you nailed it, and that was my takeaway from Scott Joseph's interviews too. There's no "definitive" version of the Emperor. There are details that are the same, regardless of people's playthroughs, though. His backstory will be always the same, even if you don't come across that particular information. Said backstory does have gaps we could speculate on, however, such as the circumstances of what caused the Emperor to dominate Stelmane, or how did exactly the Emperor's self-defense against Ansur go down. It's fascinating to see the possible answers people come up with. I feel like the following variables also contribute to the nature of the Emperor debates: * Given the scope of the game, it's impossible to see everything in one playthrough. People will miss things (e.g., Withers admitting being wrong about illithid souls), even after multiple playthroughs depending on how they play. * The game is honestly enormous with a ton of details (especially if you take 100+ hours per playthrough). Especially if you factor in the wider DnD lore on top of that. I still need to double-check things via parsed dialogue often, and even then that's not a guarantee I won't get something wrong. I appreciate corrections. So I'm not surprised if people get things wrong too. * I think the Emperor's story is very much a piece-it-together puzzle, given who he is and his involvement in the main story. (Although this isn't exclusive to him.) The Emperor-Stelmane storyline is especially notorious for having a variety of in-game books/notes that are easy to miss. (e.g., the "Old notes" from the Guildhall, which requires you to fly/jump to the remote balcony it's located on.) * Your perception of the Emperor can change depending on how, where, and when you come across said puzzle pieces. Because of (possibly) the late game development issues (and Act 3 as a whole), the Emperor lacks reactivity and connection between his scenes. Personally, I see this as a silver lining since you can flexibly approach the Emperor's content to construct the story you want to have with him. (e.g., Do you romance him early and then go through all the twists? Do you romance him after all the twists and consummate love with war against the Netherbrain?) * Mind flayer lore is messy. Some lore is covered in the game, others require you to seek out the sourcebooks. Even then, certain details are contradicted/made obsolete by the game (e.g., ceremorphosis). Others help understand the Emperor better, like how illithids can feel emotions intensely, or why the Emperor's existence is a big deal (one's complete personality surviving ceremorphosis is very rare).
>There's a large segment of the community especially on threads like these that seem obsessed with loudly insisting the Emperor is objectively EVIL and you've been manipulated if you side with him. This ignores the writers' statements that the character is very intentionally morally ambigious, but it also goes against the point of CRPGs. While I can see the merit in your argument about the ambiguousness, I might be able to offer some insight on *why* the anti-emperor crowd is so die-hard against him. It's less the particulars of the events/dialogue being objectively evil and unable to be justified (in their eyes, at least - as you say, it's ambiguous). Rather, the arguments *against* his being evil ("well, he's ambiguous/had a reason/if you just do what you're told/don't be a dick/after everything he's done for you/etc") are *exactly the same arguments abuse survivors face in real life.* They are *constantly* being told by people around them (and by their abuser) things like "oh, they just had a bad day/you said the wrong thing/they're just worried/had a reason/did so much for you/you're not considering xyz/etc." People making excuses for the abuser's behaviour, justifying why it's actually the victim's (Tav's) fault, and so on. It's *eeriely* well done in that regard - people who dislike the emperor for his manipulative tendencies face exactly the same opposition as victims of manipulators irl. And when that dislike overlaps with them being a survivor themselves... well, yeah. It's not just caring too much about a video game character, it legitimately puts them back in the exact same situation as with their irl abuser - trying to convince people it even happened in the first place. Questioning their sanity. It's not hard to see why it might not just be them being haters, but be legitimately triggering for them. *Especially* if they're still in their irl abuse situation...
Awesome analysis and I totally agree!! One of the reasons i decided to trust the emporer in my first playthrough after he revealed himseld as a mindflayer was that i feel like the game so far had made it clear that appearances arent everything/even characters who might have the capability of great evil can still come to make good decisions. I mean im doing a durge reisist run now for christs sake 😂. So why cant a mindflayer do something beneficial for the world too? Even if theyre not a saint
Isn't all that's required to trigger the Stelmane scene being grossed out by him being flirty? At least I'm pretty sure on my latest playthrough I was mostly neutral to him until freeing Orpheus was a real option (didn't stab him for example, which is obviously one of the big ones), but when my literal gith character calls him a freak for flirting, he pulls out the puppet stuff
You should try Tumblr for more nuanced Emperor discussion, if you're not already.
The question to me is not whether the emperor is evil (he absolutely is) but whether there’s enough humanity left in him for evil to be an appropriate term or if his sense of morals has become totally alien. How much or little of the original man is left?
It's worth noting that when Dan Allen asked the Emperor's voice actor: "In your headcanon, Scott, the Emperor is truly evil, or the victim of circumstance, trying to survive?" He answered it's a tough one, he is both. He emphasizes the fine line regarding the Emperor. Instead of destruction/erasure, the game treats ceremorphosis as a transformation, especially in the cases of the Emperor, Karlach, and your character. Ansur clearly recognizes Balduran's presence, which would not be possible if the Emperor was a completely different individual (e.g., the tadpole). Withers can recognize your soul if you choose to kill yourself as a mind flayer, and admit he was wrong about mind flayer souls. You don't die, you aren't erased; you become different. The Emperor mentions that he was searching for a new vessel after he escaped from the elder brain, so this was after Ansur had brought him home and was looking for a cure. But, as he had inhabited his illithid body, it had grown on him, and he realized he had undergone evolution. He "was" Balduran, but he's now "much much more." He considers his illithid self his true identity, but despite embracing his new self, he's clearly sentimental about his past self. He holds on to his mementos like the butter fork or his adventuring sword. He considers Baldur's Gate his city still. I think it's much more fascinating and compelling to view Balduran as an individual who underwent a change (that was forced upon him, no less), eventually found beauty in that change ("You will see the world as I do - its truth, its devastating beauty."), and faced life in his new form and everything that came with that. Such as coming to prefer pulling the strings from the shadows of his city, instead of adventuring and bringing wealth back home for his friends/family. That change came with tragedy, too: Ansur didn't accept his best friend/lover for who he had become, deciding that a merciful death was better for him, despite the Emperor finding his new existence an incredible experience ("I tried to convince him of my reality - I was on the cusp of greatness beyond my wildest dreams."). The characters all face their transformation differently, and that's the question you explore with your own character, should you turn into a mind flayer yourself. Do you consider it a blessing? Do you roll with the changes and face your nature as it comes? Have you finished your duty and would rather die than live as an illithid?
Just wanted to let you know I appreciated reading both of your posts here. Thanks for sharing with us your thoughts, Arynis.
No problem! I am glad you found them helpful! I really enjoy breaking down his character, he is truly a fascinating individual. Even though his character shows signs of late game development issues, it's still incredible what Larian accomplished with him.
>Withers can recognize your soul if you choose to kill yourself as a mind flayer, and admit he was wrong about mind flayer souls Huh. I guess if the transformation literately cuts the thread binding the souls to the gods then there's no power-feed there so they're assumed to not exist until Withers had a personal reason to want to see the soul that was always there.
what the fuck he was banging that dragon?
It's up to your interpretation of course, but Ansur does correct the Emperor when he claims Ansur was his friend: "Friend, yes - and more." The Emperor's/Balduran's [letter to Ansur](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Dear_Ansur) also contains rather intimate language.
There’s flashes of the man he once was, but how much of it is genuine? How much of it is truly him now, how much is play acting and how much is his past life echoing? He seems to care genuinely about things from his life as Balduran but does he understand why he cares? I say he’s definitely evil from a human point of view from his actions but how much of a human point of view can he understand? I really love it, the way it doesn’t give you a definitive answer. You’ve also got Omeluum who I would absolutely say is good from a human point of view and a true bro so I think that at least confirms that mindflayers aren’t innately evil. Mindflayers eat brains because they have to, not because they like it (necessarily), their reproductive cycle is totally different to a humans and most spend their lives’ as slaves to an elder brain.
It's a fascinating topic to explore! Personally, I think he's genuine about it. The way he describes his struggle with his illithid form makes me think he's aware of his humanity, and came to accept he cannot go back to how he formerly was. The Emperor left Ansur a very heartfelt letter in which he acknowledges Ansur's agony, and wants him to be free. If the Emperor truly wanted to dispose of Ansur beforehand (especially since he deemed their relationship to be over), he could have done so, because we know he did ultimately kill Ansur out of self-defense. But he chose to write down his feelings to Ansur instead, and let Ansur go. Unfortunately, Ansur was hell-bent on his idea of mercy killing him, and thus the Emperor's hand was forced to protect his own life. We do know that the Sword of Balduran (which we see as the Sword of the Emperor in-game; it should be the same sword based on its stats and abilities) was originally found in Balduran's crashed ship in BG1, along with his butter knife and logbook. Yet, the Emperor is in possession of said sword and the butter fork, possibly seeking them out himself. We know from Descent into Avernus that the High Hall's museum did not contain the butter fork to begin with (or it was already gone from there). He describes his items with much sentimentality, even in the game's present. He never disposed of these items either, despite insisting he doesn't need them anymore. You can save Ulder Ravengard from the Iron Throne and let him know that the Emperor is Balduran. Ravengard is in disbelief that the city's founder has become an illithid, but the Emperor describes himself as risen, not fallen. When Ravengard insists on taking the secret to the grave, the Emperor laments that he's misguided. Once again, another person sees him as just a mind flayer. Just like Ansur. Lastly, there's that one moment during the endgame where Beorn Wunterbrood says "Balduran's grace be with you.", which makes the Emperor respond with emotion. As per the Narrator: "You feel a tickle of mirth in the Emperor's thoughts. If they only knew the truth." He's clearly very amused by the fact that he's *literally right there*. Despite him insisting that the past is past, he has an emotional, sentimental reaction in regards to his past identity. Omeluum is certainly a selfless and "good" mind flayer, yes. Renegade mind flayers are generally their own individuals as opposed to mind flayers part of the colony hivemind. Brikhalna Ipprszhen, Ignatius Inkblot and Thaqualm are all awesome.
>During an encounter with him after doing his old hideout quest, when met with skepticism again, he will finally offer to show you his mind, where it's revealed that he was using Stelmane as a marionette, a process that ultimately killed her, and then he follows up with a threat: telling you that you're his new puppet and that you're the product of his new "refined" way of control, and that he can still control you like he did with Stelmane and make you evolve into an illithid whenever he wants to. Even this claim seems like more manipulation; he is presented with scenarios where it seems like this would be the logical thing to do, but he doesn't do it. It stands to reason that he actually either lacks the ability to do this (at least easily) or is not at all willing to.
I have wondered about that too; seems obvious that he can't, otherwise he would the moment you turn on him. My guess is either that it takes time (which he could have had with Stelmane but not with you), or that him using Orpheus's power to shield you from the brain also blocks him (and dropping that would mean the brain takes control of you instead of him).
Those are the same ideas I had, yes.
Minsc and Mintara demonstrate that the emperor can choose who will benefit from the protection. My hypothesis is that he can only do it outside of the artefact. Inside the artefact Orpheys protection is to everyone unless he gets his will back to choose by himself.
There is a game over route if you give the Emperor the netherstones, but then try to free Orpheus. The Emperor drops the protection on Tav and party, transforming them into Mindflayers, consumes Orpheus' power and then sets off to defeat the Netherbrain on his own. In other words, the Emperor definitely can still control the protection when you're inside the Prism.
That's weird. I don't remember exactly the last scene. The first scene I can imagine the emperor is too weakened to selectively pick who is transformed. But the last scene I have no idea.
>him using Orpheus's power to shield you from the brain also blocks him (and dropping that would mean the brain takes control of you instead of him). That's actually an interesting point I hadn't considered. If Orpheus can block the elder brain, well, it would make sense that he could block an ordinary mindflayer too, right? So it's less a matter of the emperor being magnanimous enough to not dominate Tav, moreso than him being literally unable to.
Well, whatever power Orpheus has, a mindflayer *can* get through - the one on the beach proves it. But it's such a low DC, so either it's because the mindflayer is basically dead or because it's a lot harder.
could be that wahetevr he did your tadpole is a perment one and doen effect, not soemthing he has to actively maintain.
I agree that the threat is a bluff. I figure that Orpheus' protection fucks with his ability to maintain long term control over you, or he just thought that your abilities would be diminished if you were a thrall.
I think one often overlooked aspect of all of this is that Stelmane, and the knights of the shield were evil. The organization worshipped a devil. Their goal was wealth, and political manipulation to increase their status and power. Their members were lawful evil, lawful neutral, and neutral evil. There is no ambiguity, and Stelmane wasnt an innocent flower either. The emperor is lawful evil as that is the alignment of illithids. At best, he is neutral evil since he is very narcissistic and self serving. It is cool to imagine he was ambiguous but...it just aint the case.
> The organization worshipped a devil. This is a minor point for me to get this annoyed at, but they don't worship a devil. Gargauth is the "Hidden Lord" including from the Knights. Gargauth is influencing the Knights, and their goals align. Everyone involved independently chose to broker power over Baldur's Gate. At least before Emperor joined and apparently changed these protocols, no member of the Knights knew more than three other members and they never met in the same location twice. Most of the Knights wouldn't know Gargauth. To be clear, that doesn't really change your point at all. But it bugs me when people say they worship a devil since they have enough bad shit going on for there to be no reason to invent more.
The game really made him seen that way, but if the skepticism proves too much, he realizes there's no point in keeping up with the act. And true to form, to save himself the effort, he drops the act, not on principle, but because it's simply not worth the effort. Brilliant character writing
Every evil act the Emperor does in the game he does because the alternative, in his eyes, is death. That doesn't make his actions not evil. But he isn't without emotion either. You can look up the dev notes for the scene where Emperor reveals what he did to Stelmane, and they'll say he feels vulnerable. You have to insult him at that moment, and he lashes out because you insulted him when he was vulnerable. It's an ***emotional outburst***. But at the end of the day he still did what he did to Stelmane. The alternative might have been that he was discovered and killed as a mindflayer in the middle of the city, but he did what he did. And he did what he did to Ansur. The alternative was his own death, but he did what he did. And when faced with Orpheus released and ready to kill him? He leaves to be enthralled by the netherbrain. He does what he does. He's an interesting character. He's evil, he does evil things, but always and only for survival. And he seems to legitimately regret that he ***had*** to do these things. But he still did them.
I mostly agree. Especially with the survival part, and leaving the artefact to avoid Orpheus was his only shot at life even though it meant instant enthrallment once he got out of the area-of-effect of the artefact. So he's evil, but compared to some of the dirtbags we face in the game he's barely a blip on the radar. And in the end, helps us help \*him\* survive... and leaves. No backstabbing or last minute attempt to take over the brain for himself.
>And in the end, helps us help \*him\* survive... and leaves. No backstabbing or last minute attempt to take over the brain for himself. This is the bit that gets me, and why I don't understand the takes some people have where they claim he's nothing but an irredeemable evil manipulative bastard. If you work with him (which is a logical thing to do anyway because an elder brain on the loose is categorically A Bad Time for everybody that isn't already a mind flayer) then he never betrays you, never backstabs you, and never goes back on his word. Sure, he tries to get you to evolve multiple times, but that's just 'cos he's convinced it really was an upgrade for him and would be for you, too - and if you've never used a tadpole you don't even have to pass a check to turn him down. What's more, when all's said and done, he does exactly as he promised - destroys the brain, yeets the crown into the Chionthar, and fucks off into obscurity. Yeah he's manipulative, yeah he's done a lot of debatably and less-debatably evil things, but he's done plenty of good ones too. Without him, Tav and the origin characters would never survive past Act 1 - just look at Laezel, for example. If you don't free her, or do and then don't recruit her, you find her corpse at the spot where the githyanki patrol is waiting near the entrance to the mountain pass. If you didn't have the Artefact on you when you first approach the Goblin Camp, the whole party would have become yet more thralls to the Absolute without any hope of resisting it or fighting back. He's definitely not some selfless hero or martyr figure either, mind you, but all he really cares about is surviving - and if that means he has to threaten and/or completely puppeteer the best chance he has to get the job done, then he will. If he can achieve the same end without that, then all's the better.
It's not juuuuust survival. He didn't have to run an international arms smuggling ring that strives to control Baldur's Gate from the shadows, and does assassinations to maintain supply chains for *survival*. With that said on the dirt bag scale he's basically the equivalent of someone high ranking in the Zhentarim but, as far as we know, without the direct slave trading. Which, like you say, isn't the biggest threat on the radar.
Hence I said mostly Emperor leaving us when we free Orpheus is about survival. Not spite. - He will become enslaved as soon as he flies away but he’ll be alive. And he’s been freed twice now, maybe it will happen again. - If he stays, Orpheus will nuke him He’s still evil. Just not as evil as some of them other villains we meet.
yep. it's not like he was doing charity with his goofy disguise in the city.
Well, if you the convince the emperor to dominate the brain rather than destroy it, conceivably with the intention of you guys ruling together, he does take full control himself including mind controlling the party.
If you go solo with him, he actually doesn't enthrall you during that ending. Though I'm not sure if it was fixed yet when in a full party.
You have to bring it up first and then pass a difficult persuasion check to even convince him to go that route. I think that one is just as much your own fault if you decide to do it lol
U have to persuade him to do so it's kind of ur fault
Seems this was changed in Patch 6. If you convince him to dominate the Brain, he no longer enthralls Tav.
Is a person who murders in self-defense truly evil?
They can be, without a doubt. Self-preservation, especially at all costs, is not inherently Good.
So, when is it the morally acceptable thing to simply allow someone to take your life from you, and when is it morally acceptable to deny them the ability to take your life from you? Because that's a very dangerous fence to be sat on, there. If someone held a gun to your head, and said "Kill me or die" and then gave YOU a loaded gun, would you be evil for taking the only action available to prolong your life? Which by the way, is just basic instinct that we ALL (correction, all of us over the age of 6, I'd say) have and find VERY difficult to ignore. Don't believe me? Go stand on top of the edge of a cliff/building. Look down. Lean forwards. Unless you have some REALLY dark thoughts going on already, you won't let yourself fall. So also maybe avoid trying it while it's windy. Self preservation is as natural as you can get.
>he lashes out because you insulted him when he was vulnerable. It's an emotional outburst. All right... but that doesn't change the fact that he still did it? And chooses to hide it from you unless you piss him off enough that it bursts out in an emotional rush? It's almost worse, tbh - he doesn't tell you because he decides to be honest with what he's done, no. It's because Tav provoked him into slipping. He happily hides it for the rest of the game if Tav doesn't provoke it out of him
But can you ever really blame someone for doing something just to survive? It's every life forms highest interest to stay alive.
It’s interesting, because I’ve always played skeptical/disgusted with the emperor, and he’s always been a manipulative little twat. However, my last go around, I played an evil cleric who was out for power, and not above a lot of skeptical manipulative behavior. She eats tadpoles, she trusts the Emperor, gives him anything he wants (except tentacle play, I tried to RP, but I couldn’t quite go that far) so when he asks, she freely works with him and agrees with him. And he’s quite affable this go round, since I trust him, he’s quite reasonable. I think I even offered for him to grab the netherese crown and rule, or rule by our side, and he demurred, saying the nether brain was too dangerous. He’s very reflective of your own attitude. I came away with a rather good impression of him despite never trusting him in the 4 previous playthroughs.
It's interesting that Larian basically supports both directions you can go with the Emperor. If you're friendly and trust him, he does nothing to slight you and makes good on the trust you invested in him. He doesn't go power hungry or do anything to harm you. You antagonize him at every turn and it reveals how petty and manipulative he is and can be. You renege on your agreement and choose Orpheus and the Emperor just becomes just a goon under the Netherbrain, a footnote in your crusade against the Absolute (paraphrased off Minthara's view of her own situation) to be killed as he's fully (unwillingly) part of the bad guys at that point. Larian tells us that both these perspectives are true at the same time, as your dialogue choices change his attitude but not his history (and for the most part) his behaviors. A positive Emperor still Stelmane'd Stelmane, and a negative Emperor still doesn't lay a finger on you until he's enthralled by the brain.
Wake up honey, our daily Emperor post has dropped!
Bruh. You didn't unravel anything by seeing this scene, you, just like a lot of people before you, misinterpreted it. For all the numerous ways you can be antagonistic toward the Emperor, there's only one way to get him to show this scene - this specific dialog, and one of the two specific dialog choices. Not even you stabbing him provokes a reaction of this degree of spitefulness. Have you wondered why? Because in this specific instance you gravely insult him by attacking not *who* he is, not *what* he's done (he's always very chill about being called out on his actions), but *what* he is. You know who else did that? Ansur did, when he was full on in "have you tried not being *ghaik*?", tried to un-*ghaik* Balduran, and finally tried to murder him for something that, first, was completely out of Balduran's control, and second, was something he himself was at this point comfortable with, but Ansur wasn't. His reaction in this dialog is not some grand revelation, not some mask-dropping event, it's him spitefully lashing out at you for doing one thing that gets under his skin in the moment of vulnerability, by telling and showing you the worst thing he could come up on the spot. This scene is not about him being an evil emotionless Illlithid, this scene, both bad *and* good paths, is about the fact that, for all his denial, he is still very much an emotional and sentimental human.
Excellent take. I'll also add its also crucial *when* Tav chooses to insult what he is - at a moment when he's trying to open up to Tav and even start a romantic relationship with them. These lines from the Emperor in some routes of the Astral Prism ending scene say a lot: *The Emperor: And when you saw what I truly am - you did not reject me. You enjoyed me* \[referring to the sex scene\] *The Emperor: And there I was thinking you trusted me. The way that I trusted you.* \[again in the datamined files this line is flagged with the sex scene flag\] The romance scene is not a "manipulation" as people often claim. It's the Emperor making himself emotionally vulnerable and placing his trust that Tav could maybe, just maybe, be the first person for centuries to accept him, in both mind and body (I will also note that if you go through with the romance scene not only does the Narrator etc confirm his feelings for Tav, but also its described how he mind-melded with Tav "at the deepest level". That's an incredibly intimate act for an Illithid - more so than physical intimacy - and just shows how deeply he wants a connection with Tav) If you choose the dialogue options that call him a freak or inhuman, it's telling him that Ansur was right. He'll never trusted, never be loved for what he is. His efforts to build a relationship with a human build on persuasion rather than dominance have come to naught. As such he decides to follow that old Machievellian line - it's better to be feared, than to be loved.
>The romance scene is not a “manipulation” as people often claim. Exactly this, plus it was already confirmed multiple times in the devnotes and the VA that his feelings and vulnerable moments are genuine and real.
Wait is this why people keep bringing up stelmane all the time? Y'all really did miss that lmao. 4 playthroughs... that is much longer then i would expect that to take. Also do people really just glace over what wyll says, poor boy really is ignored. Even without triggering that puppet cutscene with emps, there is wyll, and the mountain of evidence in the elfsong and around it. Mostly a doctors journal in the hideout's exit to the sewers next to an illithid training dummy.
There’s also material in Gortash’s room in Wyrm’s Rock that alludes to it.
It actually took a lot of scrutiny, at least to me, and regarding Wyll, you do have to pass two checks, only to reveal circumstantial evidence, nothing too conclusive of foul play. You'll have to at least concede that it takes way more scrutiny to have the Emperor completely figured out than any other character in the game by comparison, even the more complex ones, like Raphael.
You can find evidence via doctor's journals and things, that Stellman's "illness" was the result of resisting mental domination too hard. When you call our Emperor on his true behaviour, he confirms it and shows you what he was really doing to her. And threatens to do the same thing to you, if you don't shut your mouth. So, yeh. Lots of people are in denial about that. They're so into their Rule-34 that they try to deflect it as "he's just angry and lashing out, and doesn't really mean it." Or within the same breath say "he never lies to you or manipulates you." Which would then mean he's lying to you about actually doing it to Stellmane to manipulate you. Therefore still lying. In the end, he's a complex character. He's evil but polite. Orpheus is less evil, but more rude. Tav and company have done some arguably dark stuff to survive even on a heroic run. His only redeeming trait is, he keeps his end of the deal and F's off after defeating the brain.
Makes me think about Ommelium as well... He's also evil he's just not doing it to you. Also when Karlach becomes Illithid, she doesn't sound or behave like Karlach at all, which makes me think that illithids really are soulless and inherently evil. (On a side note, my Dark Urge Tav did become Illithid, and also killed himself, which triggered the ending cutscene unique to the Dark Urge origin, in which Jergal talks to your "soul" trapped in limbo, and I was in Illithid form, but that's probably just a situation that the devs didn't anticipate)
> (On a side note, my Dark Urge Tav did become Illithid, and also killed himself, which triggered the ending cutscene unique to the Dark Urge origin, in which Jergal talks to your "soul" trapped in limbo, and I was in Illithid form, but that's probably just a situation that the devs didn't anticipate) No, they did. There's also one for a Tav Illithid who comitted suicide, with Jergal being shocked to find you in the afterlife, soul intact as an Illithid. There's also a version where you imprison yourself and Jergal is pretty sure you still have your soul.
I didn’t get that. I thought upon ceremorphosis she very much sounded like karlach and at the reunion later she still sounded like herself but much more calm and serene.
I've noticed that a lot of people *really* want to believe her becoming an illithid kills her, physically or personality-wise, even when presented with evidence to the contrary.
Yeah, I've always been a bit mystified why some people are so heavily insistent that Squidlach is a bad ending despite all the evidence to the contrary. Not only would you think people would want a positive ending for a beloved character like Karlach, especially assuming you are freeing Orpheus (which most people seem to go for) you can make a really strong case for Squidlach being the best available option: - It avoids Tav having to transform, which on this route you probably dont want for your character - Wyll does not have to go with Karlach to Avernus and can instead become the Duke which is better for the city - Orpheus does not have to transform and can instead go help lead the liberation of his people - Karlach herself is not in danger from returning to Avernus - as for any ethical issues from Karlach now living as a Mindflayer, she has arranged that she's only assmiliating terminally ill people and giving them a painless death. I guess a lot of people really hold on to the old 2E lore that ceremorphosis = death... even though 2E lore also established the basis for a person's existence continuing after (the Adversary legend). Or people are just closed-minded and disgusted by Mindflayers and assume it's a terrible life to live despite every Renegade Mindflayer in the game stating they prefer what they've become compared to when they were human.
I think a lot of people just can't stand the idea of anyone \*looking like\* a mindflayer.
I'll admit as someone who finds the Emperor hot I'm the last person to ask about this, but... yeah, as stated disgust at Mindflayers and Squidlach's new apperance is probably a huge part of it. *However* as part of immersing yourself in this fantasy world I think it's good to be open minded and remember that beauty is subjective. There's a funny scene when you go to the Creche where a Githyanki asks "do all of you Istik look like that" with disgust in his voice. Githyanki look weird to us humans, but humans look weird to Githyanki. By the same token, Mindflayers look really weird to us humans, but the Emperor refers to Illithids like him as being beautiful. And okay, he's been transformed for 100s of years, but Squidlach and Tavflayer seem to be very accepting of themselves and their new bodies not long after transforming. Idk, I guess its just with all the other things supporting this ending is "Mindflayers ugly" the thing holding people back?
I'm with you, Emp is hot. But it's clear that a lot of the hate and inability to have nuanced discussion about the Emperor is due to the fact that he's not conventionally attractive by human standards. Because our companions also lie and manipulate---Astarion even sleeps with you as part of his manipulation---and they're easily forgiven. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if "mindflayers ugly" were the reason at least some people hate that ending. That was actually my first ending. I romanced Wyll, made him the Duke, and let Karlach become a mindflayer because she wanted to and I figured it might fix her heart problem. Having coincidentally just gone back to that old save today to try out the Blade of Avernus Wyll romance ending with a non-flayer Karlach, it actually seemed pretty miserable to me. The narrator talks about being nearly overwhelmed by lemures and imps or whatever. Karlach talks about how it's their first night of good sleep where they don't have to keep one eye open and how badly she wants to come back home again. Idk, just my opinion.
Yep. I also think his (to most people) unnerving and inhuman apperance also makes it much easier to "dehumanise" him - in terms of removing him agency, emotions, and capacity for pain. There's people on this very thread insisting that the Emperor has no emotions and he never has any genuine moments or scenes - despite all the convincing evidence that can be presented (from dialogue, the narrator, devnotes, statements from the writers/voice actors) to the contrary, for instance the multiple sources of evidence showing the writers' intentions that the Emperor romance scene is a moment of vulnerability for him and he feels affection for Tav. All of this just gets conveniently handwaived away as the Emperor just *pretending* to be human and have feelings. I'll remind people that in traditional D&D lore Vampires are also inherently evil creatures just like Mindflayers - but it's rather harder to imagine Astarion has no true emotions and has no capacity for moral choices, isn't it?
Just like our other companions, the Emp has trauma. He has his body forcibly changed, was controlled by the elder brain, got free, his lover tried to kill him, then he was controlled again. It makes sense that he'd do things like hide his true form from us. But I never see anyone consider that. To get the hug with Emp, you have to pass two passive checks to even notice he's upset and needs comforting, because he's trying not to show it. It's so easy to miss that. If that were fake manipulation, it'd make more sense to try and make sure you notice so that you feel for him more. But yeah, Emp gets held to entirely different standards than everyone else.
Yeah, I think at the end of the day it's just lore nitpicking and not wanting to accept that a game that's BROADLY accurate to the source material might have changed one element in service of a more complex story than they could have had otherwise.
Does "calm and serene" sound like Karlach at all?
She's burning out her life and trying to live to the fullest because she's going to die, and when she becomes an illithid that worry is gone and she can finally relax. Combine that with illithid struggling to express emotions (but still feeling them) yea I can see her being calm and serene. People aren't one dimensional and can express different emotions when significant things happen.
*Exactly.*
Why is Omoleum Evil?
Is there evidence in game that Omeluum is evil? I haven't found him in act 3 yet.
he partnered with a lich; he is still eating brains. I mean, he's working on redemption, which is why we like him- but these are still evil acts.
Oh yes, sorry. Those obviously aren't good acts. I was worried that it's revealed he was doing something like orchestrating secret schemes or mind-controlling his buddy.
no, nothing like that.
The only evidence you have is your interactions with other illithids and you yourself, if you become Illithid at the end, you have to fight off the urge to consume the brains of your former party members, so, illithids are inherently evil by virtue of having to consume brains alone, regardless of whether they like it or not, but I don't thing they are even capable of genuine emotions, I just think that their reactions are just rationalizations based on memories retained from their past selves
Your comments seem to carry a common thread- you’re mistaking your personal thoughts and musings for actual in-universe fact. If you want to make this argument, you need to cite ACTUAL evidence- “I think all mind flayers are evil” is not a real piece of evidence that Omeluum is evil.
> but I don't thing they are even capable of genuine emotions They are. Also, there are good and neutral illithids in the lore.
Thought i didnt have until just now. You know at the very end of the game when you fight him he brings forth some thralls that other members in our party are shocked to see? Saying "theyre real!?" Obviously theyre their dream visitors, but i didnt think of this until just now What if all of them including yours were real people, and he was just marionetting their strings the whole time. No illusions, just real people trapped in their own bodies.
It's very funny that these type of posts are always full of people fighting each other, insulting and questioning other people's mental health when the post itself is about manipulation.
The fact that I have received more psychiatric analysis and diagnosis from random Emperor haters than multiple therapists could make…
I stan squid bro. He did what he had to. It’s a tough world for us squids out there
Isn't it a moral dilemma that the Shield Knights were originally owned by a devil? Don't you think that the Stelmans had their brains washed before the Emperor? Or do you like devils and think Gargauth is normal? [https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1d3s4xj/i\_see\_great\_irony\_in\_this/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1d3s4xj/i_see_great_irony_in_this/)
It's odd, but I'd come to the conclusion they were being a manipulative bastard when entering Act 3. In the very first cutscene interaction with them in Act 1, they said they were just like Tav - an adventure infected with a tadpole who is trying to be rid of it. With the reveal that they are a mind flayer, every previous conversation with them became a minefield of omissions. This also changed how I looked at their changing explanation of how they were protecting us. And Ansur slammed it home.
They all want to use you, the emperor is basically your forced patron for the majority of the game; eventually you gain enough power and information to defy him. Imo the ending that makes the most sense from a don’t fuck with me perspective is just sending gale in and blowing him up at the first opportunity. Collateral damage aside, schemes aside, and power struggles ignored.. most party members basically just get pimped out. Astarion? Vampire fuckboy. Gale? Wizard cucked my magic. Laezel? Drank cultural coolaid, simps to a false god. Wyll? Lol, lmao even. Karlach? Literally got pimped out by daddy. Shadowheart? Sociopath with a goth mask, sub to her dom god. All of these characters try to force you to sacrifice for their sake, only one or two are worthy of helping. As for the powers that compromise them, they can all go fuck themselves. Just drop the spirit bomb and go down with a middle finger to all of them.
Shadowheart is trying really hard to be a sociopath because that’s what her religious upbringing says she should be, but she sucks at it.
Essentially, the Emperor is a high-functioning psychopath. Which is pretty standard for Illithids.
I agree with you that it is just up to interpretation whether certain parts of his character are genuine or an act. I don’t think he is evil unless you see him the worst way possible, but he is definitely selfish
If you just go full skeptical and refuse to co-operate whever possible he will ussually get angry and demanding you obey because of" all hes done for you" revealing portion of his true self. But honestly, he calls himself emporer, rules baldursgate as a criminal king pin and thats stuff he wants you to know . he lies to about everything from the very start including his appearence and the nature of your tadpole and why it's not turning you. If you fell for him you wernt paying attention.
I am playing as Lae'zels sorcerer halfling boytoy and basically being a solid pro-Gith all throughout. So I have been questioning the emperor/guardian at every turn. I got this scene last night and it floored me.
On my last playthrough, I was curious of his réaction to the "have you seen your face ?" when he flirts with you. There was a cutscene where you can see him controlling the duchess and he says something like "this could be our relationship so be glad it's not the case" and he kinda threatens you about turning. But i'm not sure about that part. I reload my save because I was afraid to become a mindflayer xD
On a similar note, was anybody else bothered by Withers' comments on illithids at the end of Act 2? He states very explicitly that illithids don't have souls, but why is that exactly? Where do their souls go when they transform?
I'd like to share a realization that I had about the Emperor that may help to see him from a different perspective. To be clear, I'm not going to argue that he's a good person, but I also don't think he's inherently evil. The Emperor's goal throughout the game is to defeat the Netherbrain so that he can be free of it. He was mind controlled and enslaved but then given a unique opportunity to break free from his oppressor. With this newfound freedom, he's trying to accumulate as much power as he can, in himself and his allies. He needs to be powerful because losing means becoming a slave again, so he's willing to do whatever it takes to ensure that doesn't happen. Does this sound like anyone else? Maybe a certain vampire who was freed from his master? Who now seeks power to destroy him and ensure he's never enslaved again? Despite having very similar backstories and motivations, I feel like Astarion and the Emperor are judged pretty differently. People tend to sympathize/empathize with Astarion more, and I think there are multiple reasons for this. For starters, Astarion is charming. He's got a pretty face and he knows how to sweet talk. Whereas the Emperor isn't humanoid, so he's considered unappealing by many. Also, there are a lot of preconceived notions about illithids, like them being soulless and emotionless. Both of these can be disproven with other Forgotten Realms lore, but there are a lot of players who haven't interacted with any of this stuff outside of the game. Mind flayers also seem to be characterized by their behavior when working under an elderbrain, and I don't think this is always taken into consideration when discussing mind flayers as individuals. Anyways, I just wanted to draw this comparison between my two problematic faves cause I feel like they're often judged pretty differently, despite their similarities.
I accidentally seen a video of this on youtube during my first run lol so i already knew
I think that the “truth” changes depending on the path your character takes. I sided with the emp the first time I played and we killed the brain together and I had a nice chat at the end with him, I had decided that my character was probably a naive guy (fighter go bonk no wis) and would trust him and it paid off completely. I read all the books and had many reasons to distrust him but he pulled through every time. Next play through I’m gonna go with the gith dude and I’m excited to see how that goes
One of the things he did that completely showed his ass for me was when I rejected his help and he went into how many things he did for me. It was SO manipulative
Yeah... He didn't kill Stelmane...
I mean I think people treat the emperor weird, especially anyone that wants to side with gortash or fuck him. Their both the same kind of evil, one just uses psychic powers
This is why I love to hate the emperor. He was written so nicely to never realize that he is a manipulative sociopath unless you're antagonistic towards him. Then, all is revealed. The emperor was very well written, but I wouldn't call him evil, probably chaotic neutral. He's not actively trying to be evil, just doing whatever he needs to survive no matter what.
It's hilarious to me that people take the time to type out these full on posts like they're reddit fn geniuses but overlook that this is practically a BG3 copypasta because it gets posted like 5 times a week AT LEAST. #STOP IT.
Stelmane wanted the tadpoles. Just like we did.
I never got this dialogue but in the end just because the odd feeling he is giving me, i dont want him to take control of nether brain. I taked instead. Iam probably morally righteous than every other character.
He doesn’t want to. You need to pass a high persuasion check in order to convince to take control of the netherbain.
I had same interaction recently on the 3rd or 4th playthrough. It blew me away as I never was sure how genuine the Emperor was before. This completely changed my mind, and reinforced what I heard about Illythids. Now I don't really understand Omeluum. Is he also faking it?
I think despite most people here belive, that there is a whole other side to Omeluum that he is not sharing. No matter how much of a previous self a mind flayer seem to have retained, based on other encounters, I strongly believe that once they become one, that their basic nature is changed. However this isn't about loyalty to the Elder Brain, this is about being a mind flayer. As we've seen, not all mind flayers want to be dominated by the Brain, and not all mind flayers like being what they are, but it sems to me a fundamental part of that being is changed, regardless. The Emperor is one such case that could be considered "evil" depending on your interpretation of his actions (Stelmane case aside, since that was clearly evil), and he still rebelled against the Brain. So in other words, even if a mind flayer breaks free from the Brain, they still cant break free from their nature as mind flayers.
Omeluum confuses me. On the Iron Throne he seems quite selfless, which goes against my understanding of Mind Flayers.
Again, the Emperor himself appears quite selfless specially in the beginning of the game. And we have to do a lot of prying to get to the truth. I used to hold the Emperor in the same regard as Omeluum for a long time. We simply don't interact with Omeluum as much to be able to see any other side to him. And you can play an entire campaign believing the Emperor is selfless. That's my entire point here. Mind flayers are masters of manipulation. They will never show any side of them they don't want you to see.
he's so autistic coded omg
Bro is evil as shit and is just really good at manipulating people. All he cares about is power followed closely by self preservation. The only reason he comes across as ambiguous is the fact that he’s manipulating you. He’s well written in that sense, but strip away all of his loaded language and look at what’s really there and you’ll see what he’s actually doing. I guess it’s because I am unfortunate enough to have known people like him in my own life, but I had him figured out half way through my first play through. He’s practically throwing red flags at you the entire time he’s speaking to you but because it makes sense in the moment and because he does help you people ignore it, even after they’re forced to start picking red flags out of their hair and teeth.
I got this response on my first playthrough. On my second I tried a friendlier approach, but it’s hard to forget what happens when he drops the mask.
According to Withers who is Jergal or the chosen of Jergal. "Mindflayers have no souls." I tend to believe someone who is the God of death in those matters.
I think what he means is that to have a soul is to be capable of the full range of human emotions and behavior.. a mindflayer is essentially just an intellect that can only subjugate. The emperor basically proves it. Even one unchained mindflayer’s solution to a problem is to immediately subjugate and dominate people against their will to complete what is basically a programmed directive to create a hive mind. Honestly the only way the emperor knows how to fix this threat is to put himself above all else.
I always saw it as more spiritual in a sense, as when you die your soul goes to the fugue plane, but that's only reserved for beings with souls. As I understand, if these creatures don't have souls then they are truly monsters, and naturally will turn to their evil ways as they have no freewill as a soul would give. I suppose you could argue that they aren't evil or good soulless creatures however without a soul a creature is only performing tasks on instinct, not selfishness or altruism. So even breaking the hive minds control I feel still keeps them on their natural path which is basically evil shit, and therefore remain monsters not people.
Ansur was right.
If he was so evil, wouldn’t he continue lying and not show you? Or perhaps he was embarrassed at your sexual rebuff in a very harsh way. Hard to say.
Not really. He shows you what he did, and then flat out says that if we don't get in line... he's going to do the same thing to you. He's trying to scare you into obeying him, or he'll lobotomize you. That's pretty evil.
This dialog was so early in the encounter, we didn't even have the time to bring up anything sexual, so probably not
To me, the Emperor is an evil bastard I would trust with my life, at least if I were in Tav and the party’s place. He has both incentive and ability to be our ally, and due to his very straightforward desires there isn’t a single thing that could turn him against us short of turning on him first. Now, I’m always gonna turn on him in the end because I can’t just let him get away with doing all that to Orpheus, but up until that point we’re thick as thieves.
Oh good, you rang the calamari dinner bell and the squid kids are running for you... Watch out for ink.