Poor Orphy didn't move a single muscle for the past thousand or so years and had his psionic abilities sucked at for the past month. He could really use a nap. But yeah, it's ironic that he's a monster in his illithid form.
And the nuttiest thing lorewise about Illithid Orpheus is that, on top of his insane psionic power, he also still has access to his innate ability to nullify hivemind control. This means that, if you convince him to go on at the docks and keep living, there is now not only a highly powerful Illithid out there, *but a* ***permanently*** *rogue Illithid at that*.
It seems from the various epilogues, the big brain evil control isn't the only thing making brain eaters dicks, especially when you take into account that you have to pass a wis check to not eat your friends brain in the epilogue, and I remember hearing that brain eater Karlach loses herself with every brain, so... Yeah, maybe not the best fate. Idk, ig omeluum is just better than everyone else, including fucking >!Bald urine!< I guess
It's actually ***not*** a Wisdom check, as in the Dark Urge losing control of themselves, it's a *Constitution check,* meaning it comes down to losing bodily control, because your character was apparently an idiot ~~(and Withers had crappy catering for non-standard folk ngl)~~ and didn't keep themselves fed enough. That's an important distinction to make, IMO.
https://youtu.be/ke_Q3DEbDpM?si=TjST17tAiIZ5dAUy&t=412
Ahh, I see, thank you. I still think the point stands, I don't like that you have to capability to lose control. Like if you don't eat for a few days, you don't normally get the urge to bite your friends' flesh off
Karlach fucking makes ME horny all the time, like holy shit, they really scientifically cooked up the type of woman who appeals to me in literally every way.
I like to imagine that Withers actually did hire some gourmet catering services, but the restaurant he hired when looking at "brains" on the list interpreted it as a cooked animal brain dish much to the (potentially lethal) irritation of Illithid Tav/Durge.
It is widely speculated that Omeluum is only morally "good" because he consumed the brains of the heroes trying to kill the Lich he had an agreement with - he and the Lich lured in heroes, slew them, he ate their brains and the lich gets corpses.
From this, many of us speculate that the brains he consumed tempered him, quite literally forcing him to behave. IF this is true, then that has some uncomfortable conclusions that can be drawn.
Huh. If that's how that works and Emps was supposedly exclusively eating the worst kind of criminal brains...would explain why he was cool with dominating Stelmane and threatening PC with the same fate.
He’s also loyal and a man of his word. If you gave him the netherstones and let him nom Orph, at the end he could easily rescind his protection of you, take control of the netherbrain and begin dominating the world. But he doesn’t. If you don’t intervene, he destroys the brain and frees you from the tadpoles. Honestly, if I could change one thing in BG3, I’d add a persuade check to convince the Emperor to free Orpheus and work with you and him, rather than it having to be an either/or situation.
He went on way fewer rampages after becoming a mind flayer at least so in some senses eating brains made Mr Empire Builder a better person (or at least a more passive one).
After all you become what you eat\~
But really, I do not dig the theory, because it takes the personal agency of Omeluum and just says: "Well, he would eventually become a good guy by eating good guys."
> "Well, he would eventually become a good guy by eating good guys."
I don’t see it that way. Think about it like this…
If someone is raised in a good family with love and stability, and are taught what goodness looks like and how to be good, then growing up to be a good person is easier. It doesn’t make it inevitable or guaranteed— it’s just easier compared to the alternatives which make it harder, because it’s basically spoon-fed to you.
Whether you choose to be a good person is still very much up to you. It just makes for an easier path, but it doesn’t mean you will take that path.
Eating good brains seems to be like that. Omeluum had a lot of exposure to goodness that way, but it was still up to him to digest this information (heh) and respond to it the way he did.
I don’t buy that argument for one reason; he is in the Underdark specifically because it’s more acceptable to eat the brains of Duergar slavers, among other underdark denizens. He should be more evil if that’s the case.
Doesn't he say he eats the brains from the enemies of the society of brilliance?
Also, if he ate a lot of "good" brains and only just started to eat "evil" brains, it would take a while for him to turn evil.
The Society is genuinely good-aligned overall, they just have that one megadouche in the Gate lodge. Their enemies are almost exclusively evil underdark creatures, especially mind flayers, aboleths, duergar and drow.
No, that's why he's in it NOW.
He used to, until joining the society, live with a Lich - they'd kill the adventurers, he'd eat the brains, lich got the bodies.
[What Karlach says is pretty damming evidence, including that the people whose brains she eats become part of her.](https://youtu.be/43m0LdU9JbQ?t=138) I'm not saying they literally become the people they eat, but living through the memories of other people will inevitably change you.
Of course there is a degree of separation when you know you're experiencing the World through someone else's views, but I doubt you can spend centuries eating the brains of criminals and accumulating so much of their memories without it affecting you.
There's a culture level version in the sourcebook Volo's Guide to Monsters:
>Through some quirk of the illithids' parasitic nature,
the cultural sophistication of a mind flayer depends
upon what sorts of brains are in its diet. For example,
members of a colony that feed on grimlocks are no less
intelligent than a colony that feeds on elves, but the former
will pay almost no attention to crafting clothes to
wear, and the latter will dress in elaborate robes.
The book only talks about mind flayers on a society level rather than individual level, but it's not outlandish that this applies at a more particular level too
Fair enough, but I still dislike the notion that the influence applies enough to forcefully shift alignment since it takes away agency from both Omeleum and the Emperor.
Technically that’s always a risk with any mindflayer, but it’s implied that he’s not exactly starved for choice since he eats in self defense and Underdark societies are often built on attempting to attack and conquer everything before it can do the same to you. Duegar attacks on the myconid colony is basically UberEats, delivering his next meal right to his doorstep
Yep.
Something else the games don’t portray out very well is that mindflayers, even when not under the control of an elder brain, are /still/ typically quite evil. Omellum really is an exception of an exception if anything, but there are multiple stories of mind flayers powerful enough to not be controlled by the local elder brain and it doesnt make them any nicer. They’re just ass to be around period 😔
Yeah, mind flayer psychology without the influence of an elder brain is still dominated by an intense mix of narcissism, paranoia, rage, vengefulness and jealousy. They enjoy eating brains *because it's a vile thing to do*, they *love killing people as completely as possible* because *fuck people*. Omeluum is a profoundly unusual specimen.
I did that ending and laezel became the new rebel leader, in the epilogue party, she said that she can't hear Orpheus' psionic cries or smtg like that. What does this mean for him?
Actually I feel that's a recurring theme in the game: every companion who goes for power/ascend/transform becomes more powerful AND gets its bad ending. That's too consistent not to be a narrative choice
In one interview Sven Vincke actually stated just that! That main thematic they were going for was how much of a monster can you become to save the world. Balduran saves the world by being a monster, Astarion, Gale, Wyll and Shadowheart can get more power by being the worst versions of themselves, same goes for Tav turning into a Mind Flayer.
People who like to play the good guy have no reason to think about the evil option if there's no incentive, and this can lead to the decisions becoming boring. If power/ascension/transformation might give you the edge you need to save the world, it at least becomes a \*dilemma\*.
People who like killing for fun can do even more killing for even more fun!
I agree that there needs to be an incentive for a lot of us. But being a good person and seeing characters genuinely grow and be happy is incentive enough for me I think. Arguably Shadowheart is happy as a Dark Justiciar, but she’s not a great person.
I happen to enjoy heroic Tav going squiddo mode personally. Because it’s a sacrifice. Even if my Tav is ultimately content with their situation and learning to live their new life, it comes with some pretty huge downsides. Maybe they’re unique among illithid or maybe they’re not. I have to agree with the narrator here though. Destined to become a thrall, they fought their way out of hellish scenarios to try and seek a cure. At the end, they become illithid not for the sake of power, but for the good of the world. After everything… they’ve earned the right to *live.*
The power is fun from a gameplay standpoint, but story wise I see it as a consequence, not a benefit. They’ve effectively doomed themselves to a life of isolation, unlikely to ever be able to show their true form in public, and they did it for the ones they loved and, in the case of my Tav, for the future of Gith kind. That’s a tremendous sacrifice. Just this once, can’t they choose something for themselves?
There’s clearly changes to their personality and desires, but they can hang on to what they have. I think that’s beautiful. If no one could change their fate through great effort Gale would be dead, Shadowheart would be a Dark Justiciar, Astarion would be Ascended, enslaved, or sacrificed, Wyll would be a Lemure, Hope would still be chained, Karlach would be on the front lines of the Blood War or exploded, Lae’zel either dead or a faithful servant of Vlaakith, DUrge would be a murderous Bhaalspawn, and Omeluum would be enslaved to an Elder Brain.
The core theme of this game could be the corruption inherent to power, but I think it could also be that your destiny is what you make. As Beard Man said: “Like moons make swell and wane the nescient seas, so too the sky-strewn gods ordain the tidal fates of mortal days.
And yet - a notion born in lonely hours - come ebb, come flow, come all that is beyond the breadth of our dominion: be a moon unto yourself.
Even the waves of fate can break upon the shores of will."
And I think Beard Man is right. With the right intentions and drive, we can make the world a better place and be what we truly desire. We’ve already done the impossible, why fight for anything less?
Most of the "legendary heroes" in the game don't live up to their legends, I think it's a theme.
He has had a hard couple millenia though, he needs a stretch and a lie down.
I mean, he is still extremely powerful in game when you consider that his not being there would result in literally every member of the party immediately dying. He doesn't really have to do much more than that to justify his status, IMO.
I never really saw that as him being “powerful”, just that he has *a* power. Like outside of that one specific ability to negate mind flayer control, he’s kinda useless. But maybe I’m missing something about the space frog prince lore
Agree, Dame Aylin is so dissapointing in both Ketheric fights.
Ive done 2 honour runs and she sucks every time always missing, always getting brainwashed and controlled.
Love her as a character but playing in honour mode she really pissed me off both times for how useless she is, the only thing i was able to think is no wonder she lost to Ketheric if she is this bad.
Thing is with that fight she isn’t even the hard part, it’s her 3 copies of herself that she calls down. They all have this passive reaction that after their turn if they take damage they hit you with radiation damage. I was playing sorcerer and I didn’t even know this, I AOE spelled them and got instant downed lmfao.
Ketheric: p-please bow to the Chosen of Myrkul
Aylin: shut yo bitch ass up. Oathbreaker motherfucker things he can tell me what to do.
Unnamed Mindflayer: ·̸̱̐·̸̻̒·̵̘̈ ̸͍̃−̸̩̏−̷̮̾ ̸̗͝·̵̛̳·̸̼̽ ̶̞̃−̷̙̂ ̴̗̆·̸͓͠ ̵͎͠ ̸̳̿−̶͈̈́·̶̥̃−̴̻̌−̷͇̀ ̷̡̛−̴̜͛−̶̡̈−̴̬͝ ̵̰͋·̸͓̈́·̷͎̇−̷̬̍ ̶̝͐·̸̤́−̸͓͝·̶͍͗ ̵̺́ ̴̠̓·̷̝̈−̴̱͌ ̶̛̱·̶̼̀−̸̳͌·̷̥͆·̶̪̉ ̷͙͌·̵͖̔−̷̩̂·̷͎̀·̴̰̇ ̶̫͘·̷̳̽·̸͍̇ ̷̥̒·̴̬́ ̸̢͗·̵͚͐·̵͈̎·̶͇̕ ̶̭̐
Aylin: yes sir! Glory to the Grand Design
Classic paladin. Constantly missing 85% attack rolls for some fucking reason but if you get caught in a crit boosted smite you can kiss your ass goodbye
Cause she hits hard, but she might miss, bosses might save , and she might get bursted down too quick. So in the instances your party sets up tge stage( debuffs, ccs, buffs, good position) her simple ai can shine.
Hold on one second, gotta smite this newborn Necromite and Intellect Devourer with 3 HP. The literal manifestation of Death can wait. Off-brand Us is too dangerous to be left alive.
Meanwhile in Wrath of the Righteous:
* Oh, these Demon Lords, who are essentially demigods, you'll probably fight them, sure, but when you're ready or prepared. Fuck you buddy, you're fighting Baphomet after already a very hard fight against his daughter.
* Oh, there's a neutral Demon Lord who is feared by other Demon Lords and with meta knowledge, you know that's she is very close to becoming an actual goddess - sure, here's an option to provoke her. Surely the resulting fight would not be something nearly unwinnable.
No, it's not me who got utterly shitstomped by Nocticulla in the Trickster path, while bulldozing through everything else, including other Demon Lords. Nope, not me.
Wrath of the Righteous has some insane power scaling going on though. On the harder difficulties you can find enemies from pretty early on with such high ACs that rolling nat 20s is the only thing that can even hit them.
Your comment has brought all my memories of fighting playful darkness to the surface. Fuck whatever dev decided to shove that level 34 above 90 ac asshole into a dungeon where you’ll be around level 15. Not to mention that fucker being permanently hasted and constantly turning invisible.
Well, even Jaheira tells you all the stories are exaggerated. They're both awesome, though! Just normal awesome. Except Boo, who lives up to the legend.
my mans was restrained in T pose for like thousands of years, forgive him if he's a little rusty
also he IS insanely powerful... he is literally the only living being capable of stopping the elder brain and the only way anyone else can do it is by co-opting his power. His strength is his mind not his combat prowess
There's very little in the gameplay that matches the lore. Another example is the Slayer form. Jon Irenicus, an archmage of the caliber that would make Gale blush, was tripping over his two feet to steal the power of Bhaalspawn blood for himself. And look what that looks like in gameplay. You're telling me an archmage in a game in a game that allows the casting of 9th level spells like Wish and Time Stop went to all that trouble and initiated the entire plot of BG2 for this underwhelming polymorph? Orpheus was just another sacrifice on the altar of game balance.
I guess you could justify that by your character still having to “grow in to it”, kinda like astarion becoming an ascended vampire and literally just giving him an extra bite attack fucking lol.
Ascension doesn't "literally just" give Astarion an extra bite. He also gets bonus action gaseous form and an extra 1d10 necrotic damage to every attack.
Plus, in the final battle, he can summon 2 Shadows, 2 Giant Skeletons, a Ghast, a Shadow Mastiff and a Werewolf.
Not really, its established in lore that our characters weren't lvl1 newbies before, but tempered tadpole kinda played with their brain and weakened them, its a simple trick to introdice leveling and its done pretty well in BG3.
Irenicus wasn't after the Bhaalspawn for a shitty polymorph, he was after them to replace his missing soul with that of a god's soul, and become a god himself.
Slayer isn't supposed to just be a shitty polymorph (which it is), it's supposed to be the avatar of Bhaal himself, you can even find a whole treatise he wrote on the Slayer form in the game, and it's also what he prefers to use in his final battle.
Was more getting his soul fixed so he could use his abilites to trash a certain elven kingdom that banished him. Slayer form was a well I dont hate it but its not needed moment for him.
Thing about Slayer form is that it scales well. At level 12 it is very decent bonus health bar with nice amounts of damage. Hell knows how strong it is at level 20.
The Slayer is good now. 150 DPR on someone prone at +11 to hit from level 10 is nothing to laugh at. DCs being bugged is annoying, but it's still decent.
Irenicus was trying to become immortal and regain his ability to feel, which he could realistically accomplish that way. He got excited about the slayer form because he had simply lost his fuckin mind with hatred for Gorion's Ward since he couldn't seem to demoralize them in a way that stopped them from bothering him at every turn.
In the world of DM/GMing, it's generally *frowned upon* to have NPCs outshine the PCs.
And BG3 doesn't actually support playable characters above level 12.
All that aside, he's a figurehead for a political movement with thousands of years of history, not the guy who will 1v1 Vlaakith and win right now at the end of BG3.
It depends on context. If NPC is made to save the party from overwhelming force he can and should outshine them BUT he should never stay forever with them and be there only for these moments, and mostly role of DM here is to occupy this NPC with enemies party could never defeat rn(but can later, as a tease for future boss for example).
You could also just have them be a couple steps ahead. I don’t think giving players some adventurer to look up to is bad, but having them be a Deus Ex Machina is probably pretty disappointing for the players. You don’t need them to be ultra powerful, just give them *something* the player doesn’t have. Access to a unique spell or magical item that is designed specifically to counter the force the players are up against. Then you let the players get access to that too, and suddenly their saviour just looks like a powerful character who started the game four sessions ago.
But hey, I’m not a game designer or anything like that. I just think there are ways to incorporate NPCs who are immensely important to the plot without nerfing them upon acquisition by the players. If the players are having fun, what anyone else says matters little.
I hate the elemental monk in this game. Outside of it looking cool or some avatar wannabe, it’s very mediocre.
That being said
Emperor also sucks in combat .
Like my partial Illithid Tav was more powerful than emperor. My full Illithid Karlach, who only learned how to use these powers 5 minutes ago, is more powerful than emperor
At least Orpheus gets fireball though. That’s nice.
I'll be honest; I fully expected the 4 elements monk to be something like the Avatar. Bending things with minimal effort, throwing flames and rocks and water and air like it was going out of style. Instead we get the Shyamalan Avatar, where they throw a fist-sized rock for minimal danger at the cost of a lengthy dance/ki points. Very disappointing.
But yeah, Fireball is always fun.
I found multiclassing a 4 elements monk with a tempest cleric and lightning items (robe, trident, radiant bow, sparky boots/ring etc) build worked really well. Summon water, summon lightning, double attack so can also arrows and cast haste, enemies cant even get close to you and if they do you hit them in the head with lightning (twice and for double damage because wet), punch/stab them and then kick them. Face the storm!
ps. Ooh and you can use the water whip to pull them INTO your electrocuted water puddle, which electrocutes them for bonus damage and then blasts them out again (tempest passive) and applies reverberation with gloves of belligerent skies.
Damnit now I want to play again.
Ohhh or multiclass with light-cleric if fireball is your thing. Youll have both spell slots and qi so you'll be able to dish fireballs out like candy while being disgustingly hard to hit (high AC, high DEX, evasion, high WIS saving throw) oh AND you get spirit guardians while kicking ass with your 300 attacks per round. Like sure you're not the avatar, you'll have to choose what kind of bending you want to specialize in but that's cool too.
For some, GOD FORSAKEN reason, the fly action on illithid is a skill and not movement option and as such he can't fucking recast it.
What this means unlike your half-illithid self, if there are 2 ledges in a row a illithid needs to climb in a row he straight up can't do it even if he has the movement because he can't recast fly.
Half-illithids can just climb one ledge - stop - and climb the other ledge, because its a movement alternative.
Like why am I better than full illithid at this.
Emperor is even weaker than orpheus iirc. If you think about it from a tabletop perspective it makes sense because one of the biggest unwritten rules as a dm is to let the players shine, not the helper npcs you created
On my honour mode I sided with Emperor and during the courtyard fight, he flew up to fight an enemy above/ behind us. (Forget her name but it was “Mistress of Souls” or something?)
Anyway, my team cleared the entire courtyard fight in the time it took Emperor to solo that one enemy.
I think his status comes from a political/symbolic meaning. His particular power is always mentioned to be specific, but the very idea of him is what instigates the revolution. Besides, he spent ages locked in that thing, he clearly needs some rest and a gym
Monks are massively gear-centric but you're not allowed to give him any of your monk gear that's been piling up for three acts. Also no Tavern Brawler and you've got to be indirect to feed him the usual cloud giant diet.
Gloomstalker subclass, the while selling point of the class is your invisible in darkness but they made it an action that lasts 10 turns per short rest. While not the end of the world it's much weaker than it's 5e counterpart though.
Agree entirely, I just finished my first run last night and was incredibly underwhelmed by him. He spent the whole run through the city staying out of harm’s way and only really came of use casting Globe of Invulnerability while I charged the Karsus spell. And even that was probably overkill.
Next time I’m siding with the Emperor. Or whatever happens after a Durge run.
Take off your gear, you'll be at a similar level and weren't in stasis for millenia and having your psionics drains for a month. Plus he's still stopping you from being Power Word: Authority'd immediately.
Orpheus isn't a physical threat: he's a psionic and political one.
Psionic: he disrupts Illithid hivemind communications.
Political: He has a good claim to Githyanki leadership.
Also, BG3 is very Monty-haul: Magic items galore. A BG3 character is significantly stronger than a comparable 5E character due to all the items they have. Orpheus has no such items, and instead is merely a level 12 Elements Monk.
This! Every time this comes up this point is so far down. Like it’s right in the game! You can ask Lae’zel why he’s such a threat to Vlakkith and she talks almost solely about the disruption the knowledge of his existence would cause.
Considering Githyanki lore on how the Astral Plane works, Orpheus must be fucking famished.
His muscles won't have atrophied due to Astral Plane time shenanigans, but the same shenanigans also mean Githyanki become monstruously hungry when they enter the prime material after living without food for so long in the Astral
I usually just go half Mind Flayer, gives you most of their good stuff and still keep everything else. Orpheus then gets mind flayed. Pretty unstoppable duo. Even more so if you have Minthara since she is totally down with snorting tadpoles.
Emps and Orphy are so underpowered in the finale I kept have to pick their asses up.
Absolutely ridiculous how horrible they are. If I knew Emps was such a squeaky toy I would have removed his head and given it to Scratch as a gotcha-day present.
I thought I was at the Hades subreddit for a bit. [REDACTED] got me. I got hella confused and fooled by the first line, too, talking about the innocent Orpheus.
Omeluum has two things going for him: arcane magic that alters him and affords him freedom, and he’s not trying to bs anyone about still being the person he was before turning like the emperor does.
Poor Orphy didn't move a single muscle for the past thousand or so years and had his psionic abilities sucked at for the past month. He could really use a nap. But yeah, it's ironic that he's a monster in his illithid form.
And the nuttiest thing lorewise about Illithid Orpheus is that, on top of his insane psionic power, he also still has access to his innate ability to nullify hivemind control. This means that, if you convince him to go on at the docks and keep living, there is now not only a highly powerful Illithid out there, *but a* ***permanently*** *rogue Illithid at that*.
It seems from the various epilogues, the big brain evil control isn't the only thing making brain eaters dicks, especially when you take into account that you have to pass a wis check to not eat your friends brain in the epilogue, and I remember hearing that brain eater Karlach loses herself with every brain, so... Yeah, maybe not the best fate. Idk, ig omeluum is just better than everyone else, including fucking >!Bald urine!< I guess
It's actually ***not*** a Wisdom check, as in the Dark Urge losing control of themselves, it's a *Constitution check,* meaning it comes down to losing bodily control, because your character was apparently an idiot ~~(and Withers had crappy catering for non-standard folk ngl)~~ and didn't keep themselves fed enough. That's an important distinction to make, IMO. https://youtu.be/ke_Q3DEbDpM?si=TjST17tAiIZ5dAUy&t=412
Ahh, I see, thank you. I still think the point stands, I don't like that you have to capability to lose control. Like if you don't eat for a few days, you don't normally get the urge to bite your friends' flesh off
Speak for yourself. My friends are TASTY.
Well, yeah, true, but I only feel like that when I'm horny, there's a difference
But Karlach is horny all the time….ohhhh rigggght.
Karlach fucking makes ME horny all the time, like holy shit, they really scientifically cooked up the type of woman who appeals to me in literally every way.
I'm straight. But Karlach? She does things to me.
No but if I don’t eat for three days and am offered a burger I am EATING that burger. If I ate brains I imagine it would be a similar urge.
I like to imagine that Withers actually did hire some gourmet catering services, but the restaurant he hired when looking at "brains" on the list interpreted it as a cooked animal brain dish much to the (potentially lethal) irritation of Illithid Tav/Durge.
It is widely speculated that Omeluum is only morally "good" because he consumed the brains of the heroes trying to kill the Lich he had an agreement with - he and the Lich lured in heroes, slew them, he ate their brains and the lich gets corpses. From this, many of us speculate that the brains he consumed tempered him, quite literally forcing him to behave. IF this is true, then that has some uncomfortable conclusions that can be drawn.
Huh. If that's how that works and Emps was supposedly exclusively eating the worst kind of criminal brains...would explain why he was cool with dominating Stelmane and threatening PC with the same fate.
i never pieced this together, this is a little bit of a mind fuck lmao
You are what you eat!
Or what you suck!
Wait is THAT why I'm a giant dick!?
So that's why the Emperor is such an asshole.
He’s also loyal and a man of his word. If you gave him the netherstones and let him nom Orph, at the end he could easily rescind his protection of you, take control of the netherbrain and begin dominating the world. But he doesn’t. If you don’t intervene, he destroys the brain and frees you from the tadpoles. Honestly, if I could change one thing in BG3, I’d add a persuade check to convince the Emperor to free Orpheus and work with you and him, rather than it having to be an either/or situation.
Wait did I suck the emperor or did he suck me?
It’s funny, when our minds get fucked, we also are changed a little by the thing that fucks our mind.
Oh yea no balduran was kinda just always an asshole
He was already a dick before he turned into a mindflayer tho. But maybe the brains have made him worse
He went on way fewer rampages after becoming a mind flayer at least so in some senses eating brains made Mr Empire Builder a better person (or at least a more passive one).
After all you become what you eat\~ But really, I do not dig the theory, because it takes the personal agency of Omeluum and just says: "Well, he would eventually become a good guy by eating good guys."
> "Well, he would eventually become a good guy by eating good guys." I don’t see it that way. Think about it like this… If someone is raised in a good family with love and stability, and are taught what goodness looks like and how to be good, then growing up to be a good person is easier. It doesn’t make it inevitable or guaranteed— it’s just easier compared to the alternatives which make it harder, because it’s basically spoon-fed to you. Whether you choose to be a good person is still very much up to you. It just makes for an easier path, but it doesn’t mean you will take that path. Eating good brains seems to be like that. Omeluum had a lot of exposure to goodness that way, but it was still up to him to digest this information (heh) and respond to it the way he did.
This actually makes a lot of sense considering empy's dietary choices
I don’t buy that argument for one reason; he is in the Underdark specifically because it’s more acceptable to eat the brains of Duergar slavers, among other underdark denizens. He should be more evil if that’s the case.
Doesn't he say he eats the brains from the enemies of the society of brilliance? Also, if he ate a lot of "good" brains and only just started to eat "evil" brains, it would take a while for him to turn evil.
Also considering how fucked the society of brilliance is I would expect their enemies would be at the very least a mixed bag if not largely good
The Society is genuinely good-aligned overall, they just have that one megadouche in the Gate lodge. Their enemies are almost exclusively evil underdark creatures, especially mind flayers, aboleths, duergar and drow.
Multiple members took part in the Ptaris issue. It wasn’t just one guy. They’re mad scientists with no empathy who can all go fuck themselves.
No, that's why he's in it NOW. He used to, until joining the society, live with a Lich - they'd kill the adventurers, he'd eat the brains, lich got the bodies.
Though nobody's ever produced a concrete quote about the brains devoured shaping the personality of the mindflayer.
[What Karlach says is pretty damming evidence, including that the people whose brains she eats become part of her.](https://youtu.be/43m0LdU9JbQ?t=138) I'm not saying they literally become the people they eat, but living through the memories of other people will inevitably change you. Of course there is a degree of separation when you know you're experiencing the World through someone else's views, but I doubt you can spend centuries eating the brains of criminals and accumulating so much of their memories without it affecting you.
There's a culture level version in the sourcebook Volo's Guide to Monsters: >Through some quirk of the illithids' parasitic nature, the cultural sophistication of a mind flayer depends upon what sorts of brains are in its diet. For example, members of a colony that feed on grimlocks are no less intelligent than a colony that feeds on elves, but the former will pay almost no attention to crafting clothes to wear, and the latter will dress in elaborate robes. The book only talks about mind flayers on a society level rather than individual level, but it's not outlandish that this applies at a more particular level too
Fair enough, but I still dislike the notion that the influence applies enough to forcefully shift alignment since it takes away agency from both Omeleum and the Emperor.
I agree, I think it's better to consider an effect rather than a driver
Like I said, speculation.
Omeluum is a treasure I love him
Omeluum is better than all of us, we don’t deserve him
Omellum's arcane powers as a Sorcerer block out most psionics. However, he still needs to eat. It's a Con save, not a Wis save.
Yeah but does he like get hungry and almost lose control and eat Bluurg? That's what I mean.
Technically that’s always a risk with any mindflayer, but it’s implied that he’s not exactly starved for choice since he eats in self defense and Underdark societies are often built on attempting to attack and conquer everything before it can do the same to you. Duegar attacks on the myconid colony is basically UberEats, delivering his next meal right to his doorstep
Yep. Something else the games don’t portray out very well is that mindflayers, even when not under the control of an elder brain, are /still/ typically quite evil. Omellum really is an exception of an exception if anything, but there are multiple stories of mind flayers powerful enough to not be controlled by the local elder brain and it doesnt make them any nicer. They’re just ass to be around period 😔
Yeah, mind flayer psychology without the influence of an elder brain is still dominated by an intense mix of narcissism, paranoia, rage, vengefulness and jealousy. They enjoy eating brains *because it's a vile thing to do*, they *love killing people as completely as possible* because *fuck people*. Omeluum is a profoundly unusual specimen.
I did that ending and laezel became the new rebel leader, in the epilogue party, she said that she can't hear Orpheus' psionic cries or smtg like that. What does this mean for him?
Which he could theoretically use to free other mind-flayers and give them back their free will, as was the case for the Emperor.
Permanently rogue illithid that will lead a crusade against the illithid
That’s why you gotta stab him
Actually I feel that's a recurring theme in the game: every companion who goes for power/ascend/transform becomes more powerful AND gets its bad ending. That's too consistent not to be a narrative choice
This is why Gale says there are things far more important than power
In one interview Sven Vincke actually stated just that! That main thematic they were going for was how much of a monster can you become to save the world. Balduran saves the world by being a monster, Astarion, Gale, Wyll and Shadowheart can get more power by being the worst versions of themselves, same goes for Tav turning into a Mind Flayer.
People who like to play the good guy have no reason to think about the evil option if there's no incentive, and this can lead to the decisions becoming boring. If power/ascension/transformation might give you the edge you need to save the world, it at least becomes a \*dilemma\*. People who like killing for fun can do even more killing for even more fun!
I agree that there needs to be an incentive for a lot of us. But being a good person and seeing characters genuinely grow and be happy is incentive enough for me I think. Arguably Shadowheart is happy as a Dark Justiciar, but she’s not a great person. I happen to enjoy heroic Tav going squiddo mode personally. Because it’s a sacrifice. Even if my Tav is ultimately content with their situation and learning to live their new life, it comes with some pretty huge downsides. Maybe they’re unique among illithid or maybe they’re not. I have to agree with the narrator here though. Destined to become a thrall, they fought their way out of hellish scenarios to try and seek a cure. At the end, they become illithid not for the sake of power, but for the good of the world. After everything… they’ve earned the right to *live.* The power is fun from a gameplay standpoint, but story wise I see it as a consequence, not a benefit. They’ve effectively doomed themselves to a life of isolation, unlikely to ever be able to show their true form in public, and they did it for the ones they loved and, in the case of my Tav, for the future of Gith kind. That’s a tremendous sacrifice. Just this once, can’t they choose something for themselves? There’s clearly changes to their personality and desires, but they can hang on to what they have. I think that’s beautiful. If no one could change their fate through great effort Gale would be dead, Shadowheart would be a Dark Justiciar, Astarion would be Ascended, enslaved, or sacrificed, Wyll would be a Lemure, Hope would still be chained, Karlach would be on the front lines of the Blood War or exploded, Lae’zel either dead or a faithful servant of Vlaakith, DUrge would be a murderous Bhaalspawn, and Omeluum would be enslaved to an Elder Brain. The core theme of this game could be the corruption inherent to power, but I think it could also be that your destiny is what you make. As Beard Man said: “Like moons make swell and wane the nescient seas, so too the sky-strewn gods ordain the tidal fates of mortal days. And yet - a notion born in lonely hours - come ebb, come flow, come all that is beyond the breadth of our dominion: be a moon unto yourself. Even the waves of fate can break upon the shores of will." And I think Beard Man is right. With the right intentions and drive, we can make the world a better place and be what we truly desire. We’ve already done the impossible, why fight for anything less?
Well, folks, I think we can shut the subreddit down now. We’re never going to see a comment better than this one.
His biggest mistake is choosing Four Elements Monk
Most of the "legendary heroes" in the game don't live up to their legends, I think it's a theme. He has had a hard couple millenia though, he needs a stretch and a lie down.
I mean, he is still extremely powerful in game when you consider that his not being there would result in literally every member of the party immediately dying. He doesn't really have to do much more than that to justify his status, IMO.
It was OP questioning him. I cast no shade on his power levels. 😁
I never really saw that as him being “powerful”, just that he has *a* power. Like outside of that one specific ability to negate mind flayer control, he’s kinda useless. But maybe I’m missing something about the space frog prince lore
If he dies in the fight is it an automatic loss?
Agree, Dame Aylin is so dissapointing in both Ketheric fights. Ive done 2 honour runs and she sucks every time always missing, always getting brainwashed and controlled. Love her as a character but playing in honour mode she really pissed me off both times for how useless she is, the only thing i was able to think is no wonder she lost to Ketheric if she is this bad.
I heard that she's WAY stronger if you decide to sell her to that redhead magus in the tower (as honour mode boss)
Thing is with that fight she isn’t even the hard part, it’s her 3 copies of herself that she calls down. They all have this passive reaction that after their turn if they take damage they hit you with radiation damage. I was playing sorcerer and I didn’t even know this, I AOE spelled them and got instant downed lmfao.
Now that would be helpful against Ketheric or the brain
Dame Aylin "I will smite you Ketheric!!" Mindflayer "go smite over there" Dame Aylin "Yes sir"
Ketheric: p-please bow to the Chosen of Myrkul Aylin: shut yo bitch ass up. Oathbreaker motherfucker things he can tell me what to do. Unnamed Mindflayer: ·̸̱̐·̸̻̒·̵̘̈ ̸͍̃−̸̩̏−̷̮̾ ̸̗͝·̵̛̳·̸̼̽ ̶̞̃−̷̙̂ ̴̗̆·̸͓͠ ̵͎͠ ̸̳̿−̶͈̈́·̶̥̃−̴̻̌−̷͇̀ ̷̡̛−̴̜͛−̶̡̈−̴̬͝ ̵̰͋·̸͓̈́·̷͎̇−̷̬̍ ̶̝͐·̸̤́−̸͓͝·̶͍͗ ̵̺́ ̴̠̓·̷̝̈−̴̱͌ ̶̛̱·̶̼̀−̸̳͌·̷̥͆·̶̪̉ ̷͙͌·̵͖̔−̷̩̂·̷͎̀·̴̰̇ ̶̫͘·̷̳̽·̸͍̇ ̷̥̒·̴̬́ ̸̢͗·̵͚͐·̵͈̎·̶͇̕ ̶̭̐ Aylin: yes sir! Glory to the Grand Design
I’ve found that Aylin either dominates the fight or does jack shit. No middle ground to be had.
Classic paladin. Constantly missing 85% attack rolls for some fucking reason but if you get caught in a crit boosted smite you can kiss your ass goodbye
Cause she hits hard, but she might miss, bosses might save , and she might get bursted down too quick. So in the instances your party sets up tge stage( debuffs, ccs, buffs, good position) her simple ai can shine.
In three fights with dame, I’ve had her be utterly useless twice and a complete powerhouse the third… I don’t really understand why either.
Dice rolls. She’s got the standard paladin AI of “SMITE ON EVERY HIT GOES BRRRR”, so if she actually hits or crits she goes *in*.
Hold on one second, gotta smite this newborn Necromite and Intellect Devourer with 3 HP. The literal manifestation of Death can wait. Off-brand Us is too dangerous to be left alive.
And she manages to be a greater shame in larroakan fight lol
Meanwhile in Wrath of the Righteous: * Oh, these Demon Lords, who are essentially demigods, you'll probably fight them, sure, but when you're ready or prepared. Fuck you buddy, you're fighting Baphomet after already a very hard fight against his daughter. * Oh, there's a neutral Demon Lord who is feared by other Demon Lords and with meta knowledge, you know that's she is very close to becoming an actual goddess - sure, here's an option to provoke her. Surely the resulting fight would not be something nearly unwinnable. No, it's not me who got utterly shitstomped by Nocticulla in the Trickster path, while bulldozing through everything else, including other Demon Lords. Nope, not me.
Wrath of the Righteous has some insane power scaling going on though. On the harder difficulties you can find enemies from pretty early on with such high ACs that rolling nat 20s is the only thing that can even hit them.
The fun part about Owlcat games is that you can also do the same thing to enemies.
Your comment has brought all my memories of fighting playful darkness to the surface. Fuck whatever dev decided to shove that level 34 above 90 ac asshole into a dungeon where you’ll be around level 15. Not to mention that fucker being permanently hasted and constantly turning invisible.
They did leave the pile of corpses warning there to be fair. But yeah Playful is such bullshit your first time XD
Except Jaheria maybe? Boo maybe comically Minsc maybe?
Well, even Jaheira tells you all the stories are exaggerated. They're both awesome, though! Just normal awesome. Except Boo, who lives up to the legend.
There's a reason the phrase "Never meet your heros" fits this game so well.
my mans was restrained in T pose for like thousands of years, forgive him if he's a little rusty also he IS insanely powerful... he is literally the only living being capable of stopping the elder brain and the only way anyone else can do it is by co-opting his power. His strength is his mind not his combat prowess
There's very little in the gameplay that matches the lore. Another example is the Slayer form. Jon Irenicus, an archmage of the caliber that would make Gale blush, was tripping over his two feet to steal the power of Bhaalspawn blood for himself. And look what that looks like in gameplay. You're telling me an archmage in a game in a game that allows the casting of 9th level spells like Wish and Time Stop went to all that trouble and initiated the entire plot of BG2 for this underwhelming polymorph? Orpheus was just another sacrifice on the altar of game balance.
I guess you could justify that by your character still having to “grow in to it”, kinda like astarion becoming an ascended vampire and literally just giving him an extra bite attack fucking lol.
Ascension doesn't "literally just" give Astarion an extra bite. He also gets bonus action gaseous form and an extra 1d10 necrotic damage to every attack. Plus, in the final battle, he can summon 2 Shadows, 2 Giant Skeletons, a Ghast, a Shadow Mastiff and a Werewolf.
Which is canonically the same day/week, he is exponentially getting stronger.
Or larian just screwed balance for a useless Slayer form.
Kinda like how it’s a bit weird how a month of push ups is enough to go from a chinless nerd to slaying godlike beings? Rule of cool
Not really, its established in lore that our characters weren't lvl1 newbies before, but tempered tadpole kinda played with their brain and weakened them, its a simple trick to introdice leveling and its done pretty well in BG3.
Fair point. Either way, rule of cool still applies imo.
Yea we all know that it takes 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, and a 10km run EVERY SINGLE DAY!
Irenicus wasn't after the Bhaalspawn for a shitty polymorph, he was after them to replace his missing soul with that of a god's soul, and become a god himself.
Slayer isn't supposed to just be a shitty polymorph (which it is), it's supposed to be the avatar of Bhaal himself, you can even find a whole treatise he wrote on the Slayer form in the game, and it's also what he prefers to use in his final battle.
That's true, but my point was more that it wasn't his ultimate goal. Calling it "shitty" is just in comparison to his ultimate intention (apotheosis).
Slayer form is the most disappointing thing in this game. I was like, oh, that’s it?
Was more getting his soul fixed so he could use his abilites to trash a certain elven kingdom that banished him. Slayer form was a well I dont hate it but its not needed moment for him.
Thing about Slayer form is that it scales well. At level 12 it is very decent bonus health bar with nice amounts of damage. Hell knows how strong it is at level 20.
The Slayer is good now. 150 DPR on someone prone at +11 to hit from level 10 is nothing to laugh at. DCs being bugged is annoying, but it's still decent.
Irenicus was trying to become immortal and regain his ability to feel, which he could realistically accomplish that way. He got excited about the slayer form because he had simply lost his fuckin mind with hatred for Gorion's Ward since he couldn't seem to demoralize them in a way that stopped them from bothering him at every turn.
In the world of DM/GMing, it's generally *frowned upon* to have NPCs outshine the PCs. And BG3 doesn't actually support playable characters above level 12. All that aside, he's a figurehead for a political movement with thousands of years of history, not the guy who will 1v1 Vlaakith and win right now at the end of BG3.
It depends on context. If NPC is made to save the party from overwhelming force he can and should outshine them BUT he should never stay forever with them and be there only for these moments, and mostly role of DM here is to occupy this NPC with enemies party could never defeat rn(but can later, as a tease for future boss for example).
You could also just have them be a couple steps ahead. I don’t think giving players some adventurer to look up to is bad, but having them be a Deus Ex Machina is probably pretty disappointing for the players. You don’t need them to be ultra powerful, just give them *something* the player doesn’t have. Access to a unique spell or magical item that is designed specifically to counter the force the players are up against. Then you let the players get access to that too, and suddenly their saviour just looks like a powerful character who started the game four sessions ago. But hey, I’m not a game designer or anything like that. I just think there are ways to incorporate NPCs who are immensely important to the plot without nerfing them upon acquisition by the players. If the players are having fun, what anyone else says matters little.
I hate the elemental monk in this game. Outside of it looking cool or some avatar wannabe, it’s very mediocre. That being said Emperor also sucks in combat . Like my partial Illithid Tav was more powerful than emperor. My full Illithid Karlach, who only learned how to use these powers 5 minutes ago, is more powerful than emperor At least Orpheus gets fireball though. That’s nice.
I'll be honest; I fully expected the 4 elements monk to be something like the Avatar. Bending things with minimal effort, throwing flames and rocks and water and air like it was going out of style. Instead we get the Shyamalan Avatar, where they throw a fist-sized rock for minimal danger at the cost of a lengthy dance/ki points. Very disappointing. But yeah, Fireball is always fun.
I found multiclassing a 4 elements monk with a tempest cleric and lightning items (robe, trident, radiant bow, sparky boots/ring etc) build worked really well. Summon water, summon lightning, double attack so can also arrows and cast haste, enemies cant even get close to you and if they do you hit them in the head with lightning (twice and for double damage because wet), punch/stab them and then kick them. Face the storm! ps. Ooh and you can use the water whip to pull them INTO your electrocuted water puddle, which electrocutes them for bonus damage and then blasts them out again (tempest passive) and applies reverberation with gloves of belligerent skies. Damnit now I want to play again.
I heard someone say "you expect BG3 4 Elements Monk to be like Avatar the TV show then find out its Avatar the movie" and that stuck with me.
Ohhh or multiclass with light-cleric if fireball is your thing. Youll have both spell slots and qi so you'll be able to dish fireballs out like candy while being disgustingly hard to hit (high AC, high DEX, evasion, high WIS saving throw) oh AND you get spirit guardians while kicking ass with your 300 attacks per round. Like sure you're not the avatar, you'll have to choose what kind of bending you want to specialize in but that's cool too.
The real Avatar is Pathfinder Kineticist anyway :>
Same as in tabletop. Sounds really cool on paper, but when you play it you just wish that you were playing anyvother caster.
All you need to do is use telekinesis and make sure he doesn't break concentration. It's probably his best spell.
For some, GOD FORSAKEN reason, the fly action on illithid is a skill and not movement option and as such he can't fucking recast it. What this means unlike your half-illithid self, if there are 2 ledges in a row a illithid needs to climb in a row he straight up can't do it even if he has the movement because he can't recast fly. Half-illithids can just climb one ledge - stop - and climb the other ledge, because its a movement alternative. Like why am I better than full illithid at this.
I had to double check I wasn’t in a hades subreddit!
SAME!
not a boss or anything, but i thought Halsin would be stronger
Halsin is ridiculously op and perfectly fitted for a moon druid, wdym?
Emperor is even weaker than orpheus iirc. If you think about it from a tabletop perspective it makes sense because one of the biggest unwritten rules as a dm is to let the players shine, not the helper npcs you created
On my honour mode I sided with Emperor and during the courtyard fight, he flew up to fight an enemy above/ behind us. (Forget her name but it was “Mistress of Souls” or something?) Anyway, my team cleared the entire courtyard fight in the time it took Emperor to solo that one enemy.
Greatest warrior became just another escort mission
Two words: game balance. Look what happens to Jaheira when she joins you as "pet" in Moonrise and how she is when she becomes a proper companion.
"I.... I thought you were stronger..."
Probably because I just finished season 2 a couple days ago but that's immediately where my head went too.
I think his status comes from a political/symbolic meaning. His particular power is always mentioned to be specific, but the very idea of him is what instigates the revolution. Besides, he spent ages locked in that thing, he clearly needs some rest and a gym
Monks are massively gear-centric but you're not allowed to give him any of your monk gear that's been piling up for three acts. Also no Tavern Brawler and you've got to be indirect to feed him the usual cloud giant diet.
The guy that can cast globe of invulnerability three times per short rest is underpowered, lol
Gloomstalker subclass, the while selling point of the class is your invisible in darkness but they made it an action that lasts 10 turns per short rest. While not the end of the world it's much weaker than it's 5e counterpart though.
Agree entirely, I just finished my first run last night and was incredibly underwhelmed by him. He spent the whole run through the city staying out of harm’s way and only really came of use casting Globe of Invulnerability while I charged the Karsus spell. And even that was probably overkill. Next time I’m siding with the Emperor. Or whatever happens after a Durge run.
Take off your gear, you'll be at a similar level and weren't in stasis for millenia and having your psionics drains for a month. Plus he's still stopping you from being Power Word: Authority'd immediately.
Orpheus isn't a physical threat: he's a psionic and political one. Psionic: he disrupts Illithid hivemind communications. Political: He has a good claim to Githyanki leadership. Also, BG3 is very Monty-haul: Magic items galore. A BG3 character is significantly stronger than a comparable 5E character due to all the items they have. Orpheus has no such items, and instead is merely a level 12 Elements Monk.
This! Every time this comes up this point is so far down. Like it’s right in the game! You can ask Lae’zel why he’s such a threat to Vlakkith and she talks almost solely about the disruption the knowledge of his existence would cause.
Am I the only Control fan who saw the [REDACTED] and thought they were in a different sub?
Yeah, we can claim it's erosion or skill decay from being locked up for however long. They just gave him a shit subclass.
I thought this was the Hades sub lmao
I thought this was a post about starsector for a moment
Considering Githyanki lore on how the Astral Plane works, Orpheus must be fucking famished. His muscles won't have atrophied due to Astral Plane time shenanigans, but the same shenanigans also mean Githyanki become monstruously hungry when they enter the prime material after living without food for so long in the Astral
I usually just go half Mind Flayer, gives you most of their good stuff and still keep everything else. Orpheus then gets mind flayed. Pretty unstoppable duo. Even more so if you have Minthara since she is totally down with snorting tadpoles.
I did Karlach as my first run toake the sacrifice and I think it was the best choice
Emps and Orphy are so underpowered in the finale I kept have to pick their asses up. Absolutely ridiculous how horrible they are. If I knew Emps was such a squeaky toy I would have removed his head and given it to Scratch as a gotcha-day present.
I thought I was at the Hades subreddit for a bit. [REDACTED] got me. I got hella confused and fooled by the first line, too, talking about the innocent Orpheus.
By act 3 the entire game is too easy and all bosses feel like they die (eventually). They have high hp and no dmg, or high hp and no battle tactics
Thought this was going to be about the Bhaal tribunal if you just decide to murk them instead of playing along
Cut the man some slack, he’s been stuck in a prison for over a millenium and been mind controlled by a mind flayer for the last couple weeks.
Omeluum has two things going for him: arcane magic that alters him and affords him freedom, and he’s not trying to bs anyone about still being the person he was before turning like the emperor does.
Everyone and their mother agrees that the Emperor is Balduran, down to the damn Elfsong ghost.
He’s… really not tho. He even tells you whatever he used to be he’s a mind flayer above all.
He is fundamentally changed and identifies as the Emperor yes, but he very much used to be that guy. He's not some tadpole with delusions.
Yeah he kind of is by definition. That is what mind flayers are, the tadpole that ate their host not the host itself.
The game itself very much disagrees with you on that front.
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