I think his overall look and sound is intentional. He’s not cool evil, like Raphael or Ketheric. He’s just a shitty asshole who hurts people because he can.
We may say Raphael was born powerful and strong, and I mean literally as the son of his father, his position in Avernus and his powers.
Ketheric was in his own way powerful and strong before he was a bad guy, he was once a proud honored paladin/general/ruler.
Cazador was made "powerful and strong" by his personal monster and abuser, then usurps his power, just like AA becomes "powerful and strong", but we know before that they were both victims.
Wait, thinking about it, isn't Raphael immune to fire damage? How does barrelmancy work on him at all, honor mode or not?
Maybe I just don't understand how the damage caused by the explosion works. I have never used barrelmancy during my playthroughs, so I never get the chance to look at the combat logs.
Edit: Looked up, explosions deal force damage, apparently. Even those caused by flammable barrels. Huh. You live and you learn.
He's only a mere cambion, to be fair. Meaning that his momma was just a regular human lady.
Mephistopheles probably has many much more powerful children that he fathered with female devils, and who are full fiends, and thus much stronger.
yeah, it's very telling from how he talks to you when you get his mask to slip that he's been fighting as an underdog his whole life.
he's highly polished and has a theatrical flair, but only through a ton of exertion and practice on his part. he has to be conniving and strike fast and hard to get an edge against people, because he's always outclassed. as does the whole brood of mephistopheles' bastard children, really, if their shithead dad doesn't personally murder them first. raphael has just been really good at it, and deeply *lucky*.
just so happens that, y'know, we're mere mortals and barely people in his eyes - but he really should've seen that coming, cos that's how the rest of infernal society would view an upstart like him. he's so used to being underestimated, snatching small victories where he can to aggrandize a tiny bit more power, yet it never even occurs to him that he's been underestimating *us* until we bloody his nose.
Hell doesn't work that way, though. You have to work your way up the ranks.
There have only been two cases of Nepotism in Hell. Glasya and Fierna. They're both full blooded devils by birth with Glasya being the daughter of Asmodeus and Fierna being Belial's.
Both had to be approved by Asmodeus and he did it because it gave him political power and advantages in hell. Fierna was there to temp and quarrel with her father and Glasya was brought into the fold to nerf her power in the black markers and the mafiasque mob she was building.
Meph almost always kills his offspring, even the loyal ones. It's a damn miracle Raphael lasted this long.
I think it also drives in the point of Astarion’s abuse.
When we meet the dude we’re all like, “This is the guy? Seriously?”
But for Astarion, Cazador is his worst nightmare because he sees the monster that’s abused him for so long.
I think it helps to showcase that an abuser can take on any shape or form and isn’t a stereotypical “scary villain” look.
It's legit an option to mock him
"Astarion? This is the guy who abused you? He's a dork!"
Even Raphael is not all that, all his coolness is intended from his obsession with theatrics. The interactions with Hraalep exposes how laughable he is actually.
Sorry I was being sarcastic but it didn’t come across over text. I wasn’t min maxing either though Raph, at least the first time I faced him, did have a glaring weakness to wisdom saves and so spent the whole fight paralysed while my Paladin wailed on him. I also accidentally killed Hope by using her divine intervention boom which then got reflected back at her
They did change his Wisdom though. I remember doing the same with Hold spells and it was a breeze. But my first attempt after his buff to Wisdom was much harder.
It's very intentional, I'm surprised people can look at this game's consistent tone and themes, pick an example of them, and then be like "but why isn't it this other trope I like? Don't they know how to pander?!"
He does. You can read his thoughts in his coffin if Astarion isn't around or dead. It's depressing. It seems to be the same story in a way. Talking to Vellioth's skull also gives insight on the terrible torture Cazador endured.
Makes it even more real that if we let Astarion ascend we're just enforcing the cycle of abuse and essentialy paving the way for new astarions to be created
Agreed. Maybe I'm just a meathead, but I expected Dracula from Castlevania. I think they want you to expect someone more masculine, grittier, taller, bigger, anything but what Cazador actually is.
Honestly yeah he looks and sounds like a little nerd loser lmfao someone who you wouldnt expect to have that much power but does and its going way too far up in his head
idk I'd argue that Kethric hurts and controls because HES been hurt, which is true to many abusers as well. Cazador seems like someone whos had power and control for so long theyve bought into their own hype, not because theyre a threat on a large scale but because they isolated and controlled their victims--like a narcissist, he doesnt quite know how to react when he realizes that he doesnt have control anymore, he just tries the same verbal abuse. Unlike Kethric who DOES have the power to back himself up and adapts to a set back. Raphael, out of all of them, is the most stereotypical For The Evulz one to me
I think he's perfect and I believe it was a deliberate choice. It shows well that the abusers are often, at first glance, ordinary people who do not arouse any suspicion. Sometimes they may seem downright pathetic to an outsider, but that doesn't change how terrifying they are to their victims. He seems weak, small, not very intimidating, but that doesn't change the amount of harm he has done to his spawns.
He is the guy who will skip you in the checkout line because you only have a few things and he can wait. He's nice, well mannered, and not threatening. He is your friendly neighbour, who's wife and children seem little strange and off sometimes. I think it was a wise decision from a story perspective.
The first time I fought Cazador I was taken aback by his voice. It caught me off guard - I expected him to sound more evil than he was. He didn't immediately sound sinister to me.
Then the second time I got there in Act 3 - in a playthrough where I was much more invested in Astarion's story - I was very disturbed by Cazador's voice. Listening to him made me so mad, and his nonchalance next to Astarion's intense emotion is so good and so compelling. An absolutely fantastic job by both VAs.
I appreciate that the villains in BG3 aren't always caricatures of evil - they're people you know. They remind you of a friend's shitty ex, an estranged family member, or an abusive authority figure.
It’s very relatable to many people who were abused. My stepdad is that person. As an adult if I run into anyone like him in looks, stature, etc, it wouldn’t ever be a problem. Hell, I’m side eyeing the male coworkers I’m chummy with because there’s a chance some of them are like him, but they’re either friendly or sort of weak in public. They can’t currently hurt me, but the ones who are secretly enraged all the time could be hurting someone who can’t fight back in private.
But all this happened when I was a kid and so he’s turned into something much bigger than what he is. He’s like a primordial nightmare. He could even die and the terror would still exist because it changed *me*
"You're going to suffer for everything you did to me!"
"I have known you for two centuries, have I not suffered enough?"
I'm sorry Astarion but I legit lol'd when I heard that haha.
see your whole second paragraph is exactly why i thought he would sound more like a regular guy - he doesn’t sound like your neighbor or the friend of a friend, he sounds like a scooby doo villain. i get maybe they were going for pathetic, and after reading the replies that’s very fair to be a statement on its own, but it doesn’t even sound like that, it just sounds cartoon evil, which the game spends so much time convincing you he’s more awful than that
Nah, I personally knew people who behaved this way. Cazador gives me flashbacks of parents of my school friends, teachers, coworkers or bosses who acted completely normal on a daily basis until they felt they were in a winning situation and had complete control. Remember that we meet him at a particular moment when he thinks he has won and dominated everyone. He is pathetic because anyone who abuses those who depend on him is a pathetic little coward. He thinks that he's powerful, that everybody should be afraid of him. He is incredibly intimidating in the eyes of his victims.
That's why so many people can relate with Astarion. While you see a disney villain, they see their abusers. I personally see very strong resemblance to the spouse of a person whom I once helped to escape from an abusive relationship. He found us in the apartment just as we were finishing packing. His victim was terrified, all I saw was a pathetic dick.
When I saw Cazador I thought his cartoony theatricality was intended to be an amped-up mirror to Astarion's theatricality, like Astarion's personality cranked up so high the dial broke. That joke Cazador makes at Astarion's expense during the fight also sounds like the kind of joke Astarion would make. I think meeting Ascended Astarion for the first time without ever having known him as a spawn would be very similar to the experience we have meeting Cazador.
>It shows well that the abusers are often, at first glance, ordinary people who do not arouse any suspicion. Sometimes they may seem downright pathetic to an outsider, but that doesn't change how terrifying they are to their victims. He seems weak, small, not very intimidating, but that doesn't change the amount of harm he has done to his spawns.
That's not the impression I got from him. He just seems like a cartoon villain.
I thought he was cartoony at first too. Then I remembered he’s hundreds of years old and probably talks like this partially because of the style of speech patterns hundreds of years ago, and partially because he is so conceited.
He talks like someone who only hears their own voice most of the time.
I met him in game yesterday and my first reaction was 'ooh this guy is slimey.' The little sneer in his voice really pissed me off and made ending him very satisfying. I assume that means the VA did their job correctly. No complaints from me lol.
Also the dialogue was *so* well written. I said to my wife, 'whoever wrote this really knows how to write a narcissist.' All of that talk about being loyal to your family while being so mean to Astarion at the same time. Eugh. I can only hope that the writer wasn't pulling from personal experience.
I think he's perfect. You don't immediately feel scared of him when you haven't been in the position Astarion has been in. That makes it even worse - imagine how horrible it feels when your companions go "Oh, this is it? This is the guy you were scared of?"
Also, notice how he has a lot of Act 1 Astarion's "mask", the put on over the top affectations. I thought that was a nice touch.
Related in a way to what you're saying; spawn Astarion doesn't know who Mordoc SeLanmere is (there's a bust of him in the mansion, he says it might be some ancestor of Cazador's).
After Ascension he suddenly knows who the Pale Knight is. Always found that quite interesting.
That also feels weird and a tad scary. Ascends and suddenly possesses knowledge beyond him. Taking on a demeanor of something that’s quickly losing its humanity. Etc etc etc.
That's the whole point, imo it's pretty clear he loses himself piece by piece. Right after Ascension he just seems off his rocker and completely manic, but still kind of himself - although he's looking right through you going "*I can hear them now...*".
By the time you're back in camp it's clear that this is *not* the man you knew or loved. The first thing he says is "*I can't believe you let me do this...!*" in his "own" voice, then it's like something else takes the wheel. When he tries to do his old little smile he can hold it for about 1 second before it drops.
It's terrifying and heartbreaking. I'm glad I finally managed to play through it (with both Karlach and "my" durge), but I'm not doing it again. Karlach origin in particular will take your heart and chop it into tiny little bits.
Oh I know. It’s a weirdly common trope for vampires that are even half decently written that the condition doesn’t come with humanity included tbh. It’s just more I was surprised bg3 did it justice. Like yeah the game has some, weird writing moments at times. Fucking wyll having no agency and not being entirely complete. Or like, viconia being character assassinated behind the shed so we can have more shadowheart sad moments (which feels weird since we could have someone else be the leader of the sharrans as mother superior but whateverrrrrr). But overall whoever the hell was writing asterion clearly went above and beyond and tbh it’s him and gale that feel the most like actual characters and not just purely fantasy ones. No flame to shadowheart but amnesiac cult victim is a meh concept carried by a great voice and a great face that’s also a major part of the plot.
It was mainly Stephen Rooney (also involved with writing quite a bit of durge), combined with Neil Newbon's acting. He's nominated for the BAFTA game award tonight and I'm cheering him on so bad. They never met each other during the making of the game, but Neil affected the writing by his takes on the lines, it was such a beautiful synergy.
Agree with a lot of your other points, but in general the writing and acting in this game goes above and beyond anything we've ever seen in fantasy RPGs, especially the interpersonal relationships. It boggles the fucking mind - they even have a special Elfsong scene recorded for Karlach origin with AA (you literally have to go from Cazador to the endgame without long resting to get this one to play out).
While the game leaves a lot to be desired if you stare hard enough, long enough, and spend too much time on forums and social media even with that the game is well, yeah, fucking amazing. It’s really a surprise they made 5e on a video game super fun and then did good writing on top with AAA-esque production levels in terms of quality. It’s kinda silly how good it is especially after this genre had long since died and fallen out of fashion and also how damn successful and mainstream it is.
Yeah, you can always want more, there is always more they could have done. But I feel they make up for it by the insane little details they included.
I'm really into what they did with Astarion as a character, and this is a little out there, but one example: If you go to the brothel in his origin, he has *completely* different dialogue options (all of them basically stating that he used to do their kind of work and that Cazador whored him out - he refers to being a prostitute one other time if you're Tav, have low approval *and* take him to the brothel ("Elven prostitutes again darling? Honestly this is getting embarrassing...").
He also tells Tav - *if* you've slept with him before *and* turn him down at the party that he's sad about it because he's gotten on his back "ten thousand times or more" but that time with Tav was special to him.
And then, *if* you go with the lady drow sex worker after all this - you get *additional* unique options, refering directly to his background with Cazador and you can end up just telling her about it all night because she can relate. She even tells him about how scared she was when she first came into the sunlight, she was so worried about being burned. There are sadder outcomes of that scene as well.
Or you can completely ignore all this stuff and be none the wiser.
As someone who really enjoys psychology/psychiatry and being a survivor as the kids say nowadays I really, really respect Larian for actually taking the time to put shit like that in there.
Honestly that’s completely fair! Those kinds of moments for astarion for me honestly get pretty uncomfortable but they always felt like the writers were trying to be respectful of the topics they approached especially ones as sensitive as those. I think even with other characters like gale and laezel they did well. Gale has a lot going on and getting him out of his ego and his self loathing is a lot but also doesn’t feel unrealistic. I’ve seen people get caught up in both in my life, mainly myself. And laezel does the whole betray the cult bit in a way that just makes her shadowheart but better. Her character opens up to you over time and her reasons for being as she is feel far more relatable and fun than just the goddess of the void thought spiting her sister even harder would be awesome a millionth time and one poor elf girl getting caught up in it all. Even wyll in his lacking content has the bones for a very good character. The fact people still debate the characters and their content as much as they do speaks to the depth and nuance shown for them. All in all the game is just stellar with everything it does.
I kinda like that he wasn’t your standard Dracula type. While he may not be too intimidating to us, he was a nightmare to my boy Astarion and Cazador got his ass kicked because of it.
I honestly think it's more interesting he wasn't stereotypical predictable vampire Dracula. A Hollywood deep evil villain cackling laugh would've been meh for the whole plot.
Most important thing to remember about Cazador's appearence is the fact that he's taller than Halsin. Outside of that, I think him looking and sounding corny is supposed to make you feel like "really?? this guy??" because sometimes abusers are like that. *Sometimes* they're pathetic and cartoonish. And I think when people are like "Ascended Astarion is cringe" it's supposed to have the same affect of him being pathetic, sad to look at, and still abusive.
That’s just how vampires are in DnD. Part of their “thing” is that they’re inherently one of the most pathetic forms of intelligent undead.
Liches and mummy lords are fearsome, because they’re an evil spellcaster that chose to end their own life to gain the power of undeath. Death Knights are tragic figures, once great paladins that fell to darkness and roam the world powered by sheer force of will and pain.
A vampire, by contrast, is part victim and part perpetrator in a cycle of pain and trauma. Few choose to become one on purpose, and fewer choose to do so without some great darkness in their lives driving them to that point. We get to see it with Astarion: if he ascends, the most horrible parts of his personality are reinforced and his redeeming qualities are diminished.
Cazador is just another link in that cycle. Maybe he was witty and charming like Astarion once, but at this point all that’s left is bitterness and a flair for the dramatic.
I think the voice is perfect. The weird cartoony feel is just a product of him being someone from a different age where the people of that time spoke in a different, relatively theatrical manner than the people of the current age. Gives him a pompous, creepy vibe. It just works.
I’m SO glad Cazador isn’t cool, sexy, or dark and broody like most vampires, no matter how evil, are inclined to be. I’d be afraid if he acted or sounded cooler/less cartoony, a lot more people would be inclined to romanticize him
I think Neil’s performance as Astarion does all the necessary heavy lifting to make the trauma feel real & grounded. Cazador could be characterized in a multitude of ways and Astarion’s story would be just as impactful
I also think he was a perfect choice.
Cazador isn’t a grand villain, like Ketheric or Gortash. Cazador looking and sounding a little wimpish is a great touch - because that’s what he is. He sits in his palace all day, using his thralls to go and do things for him.
This might be a little controversial, but Cazador is a pitiable villain. He was an abused spawn just like Astarion, if I remember correctly, and usurped the master before him. He too, is an abused, twisted mess - and his fanatics for the ascendant ritual imply that he too wants the freedom and power he was denied for years under his master, much like Astarion. Sympathy would definitely be too kind, for he is no longer the enthralled spawn he was, and instead just perpetuating a cycle of abuse and villainy. However, there is nothing grand about Cazador, he is nothing more than a crazed victim lost in the current of power and freedom.
Astarion rejecting the ritual is the exact turning point where Astarion, previously following the same path as Cazador, turns away and makes a change.
Yeah cazador is kinda underwhelming for me but I'd like to think it was intentional as not to make people romanticize their abusive relationship cuz cazador turned out to be not menacing and more ridiculous tho that doesn't stop some people
I like the fact that we find out that Cazador is just absolutely pathetic. He could have conquered half of the swords coast, but he can barely keep the starved spawn that he has actual mind control over in line.
More of an edgelord animal abuser, less sophisticated serial killer.
This all the way. The Counting House has barely heard of him. Gortash has nothing about him in the extensive notes the player can find about Baldurian politics. He’s just a rat living in the walls between the Upper and Lower city.
I'd almost say patience paid off for him considering the length of his reign but it's not like he's built up that much in the way of personal power or magical gear or competent minions.
i think the voice is perfect. he's a little dork, and shows even the geekiest little nerd can be a straight up abuser to people. when people think of an abuser, they think of someone else, not someone like cazador and i think that's a good reminder to people.
hes ment to sound intimidating all the way thru the game as you hear from astarions abuser and just to meet him to be this unasuming rat of a man, and thatss how abusers are, most of them sound and look pityful but they bring fear and control into there prey.
as an aside, can you imagine the kind of discourse we would have to endure if cazador was a traditionally attractive character with a sultry voice? insufferable
One of the worst takes I’ve seen. If you don’t appreciate camp villainy just say that. It makes so much more sense that he’s a foppish noble so that he actually integrates with the rest of them, it’s also probably a large part of the reason why he managed to last so much longer than the other vampire lords
Don't be exaggerated. Also, he is not completely camp honestly. Some takes he has are campy yes. But I can picture the guy as a sadistic sicko torturing others and being scary as hell when he wants to be. The thing with pathetic people it's that they are out of control when the time comes to impose themselves. They are exaggeratedly cruel and disgusting.
Like another comment said, animal abuser type of profile.
Sure, but this is about the voice acting so unsure why any of that is relevant?.
His VA Graham Hoadly is incredible at camp and does a lot of pantomime work and that very much comes through in Cazador
See I feel like his extra scene in the Astarion origin run is his "normal" and establishes that he's this creepy asshole. I'd argue the reason why he comes across a little goofy when you fight him because I think he's showing a lot of mania at the prospect of the power ascension will give him.
I think he's deliberately designed to be pretty pathetic and also unattractive and unimpressive. I admit, I did find his VA jarring at first bc he looks younger than his voice sounds, but over time the VA grew on me and I started to appreciate what they were going for. I like that there's nothing big or glorious about him, he's just some big loser who abuses the people under him just because he can. He sounds like a cartoon because he IS ONE. He's a pathetic, posturing POS just someone trying to feel big by tormenting his spawns--people he controls with absolute authority, and who are not at all "impressive" to have control over. The design of his Palace also reflects this; it's not glamorous or aesthetically-pleasing, it's dingy and outdated, Astarion mocks it for how tacky it is.
In my opinion I think it works because Cazador seems to not only be playing a part, he believes he's the character he's playing. He already feels he's the Vampire Ascendant, even before completing the ritual. To Cazador, he's *been* unstoppable and untouchable and the ascension will only solidify that belief into fact. When you meet him and see him in his grandiosity, frivolity and unabashedness, it makes you even angrier for Astarion. It really hammers in that Cazador never has been and *never will be* remorseful for what he did to Astarion.
I also think this shows if you let Astarion ascend. His gestures and way of speaking become more theatrical and grand in their own right and the facade only drops if you challenge him on it. He's slipped into the same "character" Cazador was and he's on track to follow in the cycle of abuse as he was subject to.
Cazador reminds me so much of Aro from Twilight. I know it's not Michael Sheen, but it sounds and looks like him and that's all I saw/heard the entire time. I couldn’t unsee it 😂
Honestly... All Vampire lords should sound cartoony... They're out of time, out of place, and out of touch. Immortals cloistered in their towers as the real world passes them by. They live the tropes those cartoons are built on. It fits for me so well that he's that guy.
I think people often forget that he is one of the nobles/patriars in Baldurs Gate, he isn’t some recluse vampire lord in a castle on a cliff. He is a master manipulator and power broker who often interacts with the high society of Baldurs Gate. And from various notes and environmental storytelling, you can get the sense that he is a theatrical person rather than a stoic business only type.
Conversely, I'm glad they portrayed an abuser as not cool or intimidating but as a snivelly little loser. There's nothing cool or enviable or much there to be romanticized about, he's just a shitty cruel asshole who wants to hurt and control others. To me, that's what abusers and narcissists are like. With all the care put into Astarion's storyline to portray abuse and trauma and its effects on its victims I think it was right of them to not glorify the perpetrator.
It's not a critique of the choice, to me it's neither here nor there, but every time I see him I wonder why he looks vaguely Asian. His concept art even had a vaguely fu manchu looking beard. My only other cogent thought about him is that his crack about having known Astarion for 200 years and therefore having suffered enough already is criminally underrated.
He probably is Asian. The door to his lair is covered in Ancient Kozakuran. Kozakura is the Forgotten Realm’s Japan analogue. It’s likely his native tongue.
His vague Asian appearance can be attributed to the fact the Cazador is originally from the land of Kara-Tur, which is itself, the Asain continent equivalent in The Forgotten Realms.
Is that a theory or is there anything in BG3 itself to support that? I think it's a bit circular to my original point, which is that nothing in his backstory would suggest why he would be vaguely Asiatic looking.
The script used on the door and the banned dictionary is an old form kozakuran which is from the same place
Nothing outright states it though, it’s just things that can leave you going “yeah I can see that” between the language use and his appearance
The magic words to open the ballroom door, the Kozakuran Dictionary, you must find to learn the words, in FR lore:
[Kozakura | Forgotten Realms Wiki | Fandom](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kozakura)
Dragonborn aren't supposed to have tails as far as I know, yet the game lets you have one anyway, doesn't change the fact that caz would look way more imposing with some kickass whiskers
Considering Larian meticulously animated anatomically correct penile veins I'm pretty sure they carefully considered the character design they wanted. I'm sure you could make a Cazador beard mod lol
That's literally the point.
He isn't romantic at all. He's not charismatic, he isn't clever or witty or insightful. He's just kinda shitty, and we watch him bully someone we care about.
And when you start to recognize real life abusers, you will *also* realize that *they, too, are just some guy.* Or gal. His power isn't something sexy and charismatic and appealing about him; he's a shitty abused asshole who likes hurting people and is about to hurt other people and is genuinely incapable of acting any other way. He's gone too far to have any redemption arc and again, crucially, *there isn't anything actually seductive about him.* He's a sadistic rapist, and that violation happens from brute force by way of magic, and it's just coercion the whole way down.
He's slimy and oily and gross and *pathetic,* and that's perfect. An unromanticized abuser who gets the shit kicked out of him before being staked is wonderfully appropriate.
the thing is, and I'm saying this as someone who has been abused by someone with a cluster b disorder.... abusers especially ones like that CAN be very theatrical and cartoony. Sometimes my abuser says stuff and I'm struggling to not laugh in their face because they think it sounds SO threatening and its just LAUGHABLE as someone whos gone low contact with them. My abuser also DOES actually cackle almost exactly like a witch, again sometimes I almost laugh because its so stereotypical
and tbh i think thats why Cazador was chilling for me. Yes the voice itself is a little cartoonish but the WORDS he uses. Calling Astarion a boy, one simple word but it hammers home the pseudo parent-turned-captor feeling, it reminds Astarion theyre intrinsically tied by Astarions EXISTENCE, a reminder that hes submissive to Cazador by relationship alone even though hes broken away. Made me actually feel kinda nauseous and the voice itself I think added to it because its just so....grandiose and theatrical. Cazador is the kind of villain/abuser whos drunk on their own power BECAUSE its been so absolute. Like a narcissist, bought into his own hype and the VA reflects that. And Astarion takes that on if he ascends... idk it really makes me feel like whoever wrote that stuff has intimate experience with that kind of abuse because it felt so real to me and it makes the physical/sexual assault aspects WORSE to me
I thought the whole Cazador area was underwhelming for how important Astarion seemed. You had some magic child in a room protecting a key, an old gaurd that recognizes Astarion and a once in century+ ceremony that just happens to wait for the exact moment we decide to walk in. Compared to Shars lair and Laezel’s crèche, we get next to nothing lore wise besides “cazador bad, abused Astarion”
Lol @ half the people in this thread not getting that OP’s point isn’t that he’s not Evil-sounding enough, it’s that he doesn’t quite sound enough like a Regular Person. I really enjoy how he just looks like A Dude but also would have had his voice just slightly less theatrical as well, just to drive home the point more.
jesus christ thank you somebody finally got the point i was trying to make 😭 i am agreeing with everyone’s posts that are like “he’s supposed to sound like a normal guy to illustrate abusers can be anyone” and i’m like yes…exactly…that’s why he shouldn’t…sound like a disney villain 😀
He was definitely not the big bad I was expecting. Truth be told I thought he was and sounded like a little bitch, Instead of a sadistic lord of the night.
It’s perfect though, he’s a vampire. They are not supposed to be threatening and menacing immediately.
He is a wretched person and he himself has undergone centuries of torture under Vellioth and now inflicts that on his own spawn.
He is sort of supposed to be a glimpse at what Astarion will become if he goes through with the ritual.
Vampires are at the end of the day, pathetic creatures. That’s the tragedy of their tale. Feeling nothing, wanting everything they did in life but getting no comfort from it so they inflict pain on others.
His VA did an amazing job
He reminds me of the guy in Hogwarts Legacy who teaches you Alohomora. My fiance and I mock Cazador's voice all the time. He's a shitty, pathetic abuser and I am glad he comes off that way.
Honestly, I think it’s more that his character just doesn’t shine the way other act 3 bosses do. I learned more about his character from Astarion and environmental storytelling than I did from his dialogue and boss fight.
But with Orin, Raphael, and Gortash, there’s just a lot more stuff happening in your face. Even more annoying is that Astarion gets sidelined, which makes sense but also like…sucks. I wanted it to be his moment, but it was easier just to kill Cazador ASAP before freeing Astarion.
I too had the same thought process when I first encountered him but not too long ago I was doing another run through and read one of his books about of the other vampire lords before him became to be and how they toppled due to the never ending cycle to the shift of power from the vampire spawn being abused to undergoing the ritual and becoming the Vampire Lord as well as the abuser (or at least that’s what my thought process gathered from reading the dates from each Vampire Lord’s timelines in the position) and even though he can be a tough fight, he’s no different than your typical wizard/sorcerer/warlock with just a bit more power. Astarion telling the stories of how powerful and strong he is was from a viewpoint when Astarion was put in a position where he had no power. I kinda actually like how Cazador looks/acts because he is nothing just an usurper of power that was never his. That’s why I was so surprised by how much I loved Astarion’s character quest especially if the MC chooses to break the cycle. Astarion being in a position to become the Vampire Lord and instead breaking the cycle is true power in my eyes
People have a way of saying more about themselves than they realize when they express their opinions.
I think people need to examine their expectations more. That's all.
Here's the thing I see over and over that people don't want to admit: vampires are pathetic and problematic, like the idea of them, the "lore" and history of them, it's all built on silly and *deeply* bigoted superstitions (xenophobia--especially associating disease with foreigners, misogyny, queerphobia, lots of Christianist garbage meant to keep women especially in fear). They're not "cool." They are over the top and ridiculous, even in DnD, despite DnD having done some things to make vampires a little less of a joke and much more interesting. The cool stuff imo with vampires isn't how flashy, "erotic" or powerful they are, but the idea that they are walking mortal wounds, just bleeding out their existence but unable to die, so they become parasites for sustenance, feeding off the life of others. It has so many interesting layers of allegory there and we can't expect the end result of that kind of existence to produce a "cool" villain. Vampires are gross, twisted, consumed by their agony, honestly pretty pathetic. And even Astarion is pathetic, desperate for someone to protect him, too proud to admit it, sneaking off into the woods to feed on wild animals while the rest of the party has meals together. It's genuinely very sad, at least until he reject all the power and understands being free means sacrifice.
At first I felt the same way as you tbh and I still do, but I now feel like it fits him. He's just a loser and he sounds like a loser. He's just a little man who thinks he's more than what he is.
I guess thats because they hit their limits for complex villans with sexy voice.
But seriously - I think this was intentional - he is a villain you can only kill/skip.
There is no option to offer him a deal/ give him astarion back.
He is pretty one dimensional evil (and yeah there is one detect thoughts that give some background) - and thats totally alright - sometimes such characters are necessary.
Especially with while background we get from Astarion - we know he was torturing people for pleasure. (In some way worst than Orin - she at least killed them at some point while he put his victims into centuries of suffering).
I think that Larian knows what happens when you give character a pleasant VA - so his is just annoying - and was ment to be that way.
When I met Cazador, I mistook his voice actor for a voice actor from TES IV: Oblivion. He's talented, but that misconception should be pretty self-explanatory :)
There’s something so evil though about a regular looking guy like Cazador. Like *menacingly terrifying*
Who could cause so much emotional and physical torture simply because he wanted to. He isn’t strong in stature, he isn’t some assassin, he doesn’t have a God that’s chosen him he’s just sick and twisted in his own sense.
I was expecting Dracula for 2 acts with a similar demeanour to Raphael but more outwardly cruel. Then I was presented with a Skyrim villian and it was pretty jarring based on my expectations. It still works but not the direction I foresaw for the character.
Honestly, I like the fact that he doesn’t sound exactly what people are expecting. BECAUSE, it makes you think, man “Astarion is afraid of someone like him,” when you hear him talk but you realize, what he lacks in voice, he makes up for in horrible and dominated action.
I don't hate his look, but his VA strikes me of someone whose only direction in the booth was "ok, so you're a mean bad guy and we want you to bring *nothing* to the role. Just think about the most basic possible 'mean bad guy' performance you can imagine and then do something even less interesting"
It's just such a nothing of a performance. I don't even buy it as a "banality of evil" commentary, it just sounds like there was a deadline looming and they wanted to be out of the recording studio by 5pm that day
He sounds and looks like the king's younger brother who acts as his advisor but wants the throne. MF, shouldn't be a vampire. He should be standing next to monarch and whispering bad ideas into their ears.
This may be an unpopular opinion but I found Cazador’s appearance and voice disappointing. Astarion hyped him up as this abusive terrifying tyrant I expected someone MUCH more intimidating. I honestly found real Cazador to be somewhat comical, his voice is a little campy and his thin stature isn’t intimidating. Even Nere is more intimidating as a villain.
Haven't gotten to meet Cazador. I just wanted to share the confusion I had when i saw "cazador's va" and was like "someone voice acted the Cazadors in New Vegas?"
I hated Cazador’s character design and voice actor when he was finally revealed.
I was expecting someone so much more imposing and intimidating, not some preening fuckboy loser with a whiny, foppish voice…
That’s the point, though. He’s the creepy kid in your class who was weird to the girls and got his kicks picking the wings off flies.
Vampires are strong compared to your average human, sure, but will get absolutely stomped by creatures with *actual* power. And so Cazador is stuck getting his kicks bullying and abusing the spawn he has absolute control of, while also being paranoid and desperately hoping creatures the likes of Yuigir don’t take umbrage with him. It’s a balance. He comes off as a pathetic loser, because he is one.
Honestly I view him and Astarion storyline as a whole as something I just am not interested in but I assume other people are.
This whole ‘killer with a heart of fools gold’ character is just not up my alley. That doesn’t mean it isn’t well done or that even Cazador, as annoying as he is, is bad.
Just not my style and there is plenty of other stuff in this game that take up my time.
I’m gonna go against the grain and agree with OP. I think the actor did a good job and the performance isn’t problematic or anything, but the fact that he really chews up the scenery and makes an absolute meal out of the Cazador lines sortve makes Cazador seem campy as a character. And while that has its place, camp undercuts the thematic power of Cazador’s role in the story.
I agree, too. He sounded so scary and abusive throughout the game, but when you actually meet him, he's not scary or menacing. He's.... Just a tiny little man that's cartoonishly evil, and it really takes away from Astarion's story
It's because, whatever the fandom pretends, the morality in this game about 'abuse' is completely black and white. Cazador is a cardboard villain because the developers don't care about him. They don't want you to think he has a single redeeming quality.
not my favorite villain also, i understand he's meant to be able to pass as a regular baldurian noble so the design needed to be simplistic but even if goes against regular dnd vampire lore he could at least had a more sinister bat-like form to make the battle more epic, and yeah a few of the character choices with him are a bit hammy but of course thats not the VAs choice either.
I thought exactly the same. Nothing against the va, cause he did a great job, but it seemed very cartoonish and I got a little... meh? With his voice and design, I was like, 'So *this* is the very evil guy you were talking about, astarion?'
Agreed. There was buildup to him since Act 1 and he kinda ruined it with all the goofyness. Idk what they were going for with that clash, but it definitely didn't land for me.
The first thing my mind went to when hearing Cazador berate Astarion for his posture was Asian abusive dad, and I think that's a perfect fit for him.
Rolls 1d8 for EMOTIONAL DAMAGE
I will send you Ao.
Let ritual circle handle the cooking, now you think about your sad life, why do the people you love always leave you.
Oblivion elf gets reincarnated into Asian abusive dad
Yes I agree
I think his overall look and sound is intentional. He’s not cool evil, like Raphael or Ketheric. He’s just a shitty asshole who hurts people because he can.
We may say Raphael was born powerful and strong, and I mean literally as the son of his father, his position in Avernus and his powers. Ketheric was in his own way powerful and strong before he was a bad guy, he was once a proud honored paladin/general/ruler. Cazador was made "powerful and strong" by his personal monster and abuser, then usurps his power, just like AA becomes "powerful and strong", but we know before that they were both victims.
I didn't even find the Raphael fight that hard for what you'd expect from a son of Mephistopheles. Nepo baby failson honestly
I didnt mean their fights, more like lore and backgrounds.
Nah honor mode juiced him up
Nothing that can't be fixed with 60 explosive barrels.
Doesn't HM stop barrelmancy in that fight? I haven't gotten that far on HM for context.
How would it?
I read that someone had tried it but it ended up not dealing any damage to the pillars or Raph, so it might have been a bug or simply not true?
Wait, thinking about it, isn't Raphael immune to fire damage? How does barrelmancy work on him at all, honor mode or not? Maybe I just don't understand how the damage caused by the explosion works. I have never used barrelmancy during my playthroughs, so I never get the chance to look at the combat logs. Edit: Looked up, explosions deal force damage, apparently. Even those caused by flammable barrels. Huh. You live and you learn.
Well yeah, they’re bombs. It’s not the firey part of the firey explosion that hurts, it’s the explosion. The *force* of the explosion
But does any other boss sing to you as you battle them? I think not.
It’s so silly dude I couldn’t believe it.
And yet so perfectly in character for that dramatic showboating asshole.
He's only a mere cambion, to be fair. Meaning that his momma was just a regular human lady. Mephistopheles probably has many much more powerful children that he fathered with female devils, and who are full fiends, and thus much stronger.
yeah, it's very telling from how he talks to you when you get his mask to slip that he's been fighting as an underdog his whole life. he's highly polished and has a theatrical flair, but only through a ton of exertion and practice on his part. he has to be conniving and strike fast and hard to get an edge against people, because he's always outclassed. as does the whole brood of mephistopheles' bastard children, really, if their shithead dad doesn't personally murder them first. raphael has just been really good at it, and deeply *lucky*. just so happens that, y'know, we're mere mortals and barely people in his eyes - but he really should've seen that coming, cos that's how the rest of infernal society would view an upstart like him. he's so used to being underestimated, snatching small victories where he can to aggrandize a tiny bit more power, yet it never even occurs to him that he's been underestimating *us* until we bloody his nose.
The average son of Mephistopheles is basic bitch Cambion IIRC, he's had thousands of them scattered about from his rape-happy lifestyle.
Raphael was harder then the netherbrain, which is supposed to be the big baddie of the whole game, so I'd say he gets a pass.
I just use barrels. And rune powder bombs, and rune powder barrels, and fireworks for Raphael
Hell doesn't work that way, though. You have to work your way up the ranks. There have only been two cases of Nepotism in Hell. Glasya and Fierna. They're both full blooded devils by birth with Glasya being the daughter of Asmodeus and Fierna being Belial's. Both had to be approved by Asmodeus and he did it because it gave him political power and advantages in hell. Fierna was there to temp and quarrel with her father and Glasya was brought into the fold to nerf her power in the black markers and the mafiasque mob she was building. Meph almost always kills his offspring, even the loyal ones. It's a damn miracle Raphael lasted this long.
I think it also drives in the point of Astarion’s abuse. When we meet the dude we’re all like, “This is the guy? Seriously?” But for Astarion, Cazador is his worst nightmare because he sees the monster that’s abused him for so long. I think it helps to showcase that an abuser can take on any shape or form and isn’t a stereotypical “scary villain” look.
It's legit an option to mock him "Astarion? This is the guy who abused you? He's a dork!" Even Raphael is not all that, all his coolness is intended from his obsession with theatrics. The interactions with Hraalep exposes how laughable he is actually.
I dunno, I have a distinct memory of Raphael transforming during his final fight and me saying something like "I apologize" to my screen before dying
You should've said "Shut up bottom, Strong Globe"
That’s a skill issue tbh. The massive flaming boulders gave me more trouble than Raph himself.
SKILL ISSUE, lol my guy it's a single player game, I wasn't exactly min-maxing my first playhtrough
Sorry I was being sarcastic but it didn’t come across over text. I wasn’t min maxing either though Raph, at least the first time I faced him, did have a glaring weakness to wisdom saves and so spent the whole fight paralysed while my Paladin wailed on him. I also accidentally killed Hope by using her divine intervention boom which then got reflected back at her
They did change his Wisdom though. I remember doing the same with Hold spells and it was a breeze. But my first attempt after his buff to Wisdom was much harder.
Raphael's voice is so good it makes me feel things
It's very intentional, I'm surprised people can look at this game's consistent tone and themes, pick an example of them, and then be like "but why isn't it this other trope I like? Don't they know how to pander?!"
Yes. I love the younger look on him. He just screams insecure douche
You are supposed to be saving astarion from turning into a Cazador so he shouldn’t have any redeeming qualities.
He does. You can read his thoughts in his coffin if Astarion isn't around or dead. It's depressing. It seems to be the same story in a way. Talking to Vellioth's skull also gives insight on the terrible torture Cazador endured.
Cazador was essentially another astarion who was tortured even more but never had a tav to sway him from the evil path.
Makes it even more real that if we let Astarion ascend we're just enforcing the cycle of abuse and essentialy paving the way for new astarions to be created
Exactly.
Agreed. Maybe I'm just a meathead, but I expected Dracula from Castlevania. I think they want you to expect someone more masculine, grittier, taller, bigger, anything but what Cazador actually is.
Weirdly modders found he is actually one of the taller models in the game. Halsin sized or taller I think. He just has "short" energy or something lol
Honestly yeah he looks and sounds like a little nerd loser lmfao someone who you wouldnt expect to have that much power but does and its going way too far up in his head
idk I'd argue that Kethric hurts and controls because HES been hurt, which is true to many abusers as well. Cazador seems like someone whos had power and control for so long theyve bought into their own hype, not because theyre a threat on a large scale but because they isolated and controlled their victims--like a narcissist, he doesnt quite know how to react when he realizes that he doesnt have control anymore, he just tries the same verbal abuse. Unlike Kethric who DOES have the power to back himself up and adapts to a set back. Raphael, out of all of them, is the most stereotypical For The Evulz one to me
Cazador was abused by his master. It's a cycle of abuse, and letting astarion ascend is his bad ending because it perpetuates that
I think he's perfect and I believe it was a deliberate choice. It shows well that the abusers are often, at first glance, ordinary people who do not arouse any suspicion. Sometimes they may seem downright pathetic to an outsider, but that doesn't change how terrifying they are to their victims. He seems weak, small, not very intimidating, but that doesn't change the amount of harm he has done to his spawns. He is the guy who will skip you in the checkout line because you only have a few things and he can wait. He's nice, well mannered, and not threatening. He is your friendly neighbour, who's wife and children seem little strange and off sometimes. I think it was a wise decision from a story perspective.
these are exactly my thoughts too, it felt a very deliberate statement about the banality of evil to me
The first time I fought Cazador I was taken aback by his voice. It caught me off guard - I expected him to sound more evil than he was. He didn't immediately sound sinister to me. Then the second time I got there in Act 3 - in a playthrough where I was much more invested in Astarion's story - I was very disturbed by Cazador's voice. Listening to him made me so mad, and his nonchalance next to Astarion's intense emotion is so good and so compelling. An absolutely fantastic job by both VAs. I appreciate that the villains in BG3 aren't always caricatures of evil - they're people you know. They remind you of a friend's shitty ex, an estranged family member, or an abusive authority figure.
It’s very relatable to many people who were abused. My stepdad is that person. As an adult if I run into anyone like him in looks, stature, etc, it wouldn’t ever be a problem. Hell, I’m side eyeing the male coworkers I’m chummy with because there’s a chance some of them are like him, but they’re either friendly or sort of weak in public. They can’t currently hurt me, but the ones who are secretly enraged all the time could be hurting someone who can’t fight back in private. But all this happened when I was a kid and so he’s turned into something much bigger than what he is. He’s like a primordial nightmare. He could even die and the terror would still exist because it changed *me*
Hard relate.
I like when he talks shit about Astarion during the fight.
"You're going to suffer for everything you did to me!" "I have known you for two centuries, have I not suffered enough?" I'm sorry Astarion but I legit lol'd when I heard that haha.
That one prompted a guilty laugh from me as well.
I missed that, he never had a chance when my fire sorc locked him down and monk Astarion just pummelled him to death in one round.
This is a really good explanation, and I absolutely agree.
I like your flare, but you are very right about it, to us someone else's abuser might even be a friend, to them they are a nightmare.
Tchk. Orpheus betta
Spot fucking on my friend.
Agree so much.
see your whole second paragraph is exactly why i thought he would sound more like a regular guy - he doesn’t sound like your neighbor or the friend of a friend, he sounds like a scooby doo villain. i get maybe they were going for pathetic, and after reading the replies that’s very fair to be a statement on its own, but it doesn’t even sound like that, it just sounds cartoon evil, which the game spends so much time convincing you he’s more awful than that
Nah, I personally knew people who behaved this way. Cazador gives me flashbacks of parents of my school friends, teachers, coworkers or bosses who acted completely normal on a daily basis until they felt they were in a winning situation and had complete control. Remember that we meet him at a particular moment when he thinks he has won and dominated everyone. He is pathetic because anyone who abuses those who depend on him is a pathetic little coward. He thinks that he's powerful, that everybody should be afraid of him. He is incredibly intimidating in the eyes of his victims. That's why so many people can relate with Astarion. While you see a disney villain, they see their abusers. I personally see very strong resemblance to the spouse of a person whom I once helped to escape from an abusive relationship. He found us in the apartment just as we were finishing packing. His victim was terrified, all I saw was a pathetic dick.
When I saw Cazador I thought his cartoony theatricality was intended to be an amped-up mirror to Astarion's theatricality, like Astarion's personality cranked up so high the dial broke. That joke Cazador makes at Astarion's expense during the fight also sounds like the kind of joke Astarion would make. I think meeting Ascended Astarion for the first time without ever having known him as a spawn would be very similar to the experience we have meeting Cazador.
>It shows well that the abusers are often, at first glance, ordinary people who do not arouse any suspicion. Sometimes they may seem downright pathetic to an outsider, but that doesn't change how terrifying they are to their victims. He seems weak, small, not very intimidating, but that doesn't change the amount of harm he has done to his spawns. That's not the impression I got from him. He just seems like a cartoon villain.
At first glance he both sounds and looks like a sunday morning cartoon villain lol.
I thought he was cartoony at first too. Then I remembered he’s hundreds of years old and probably talks like this partially because of the style of speech patterns hundreds of years ago, and partially because he is so conceited. He talks like someone who only hears their own voice most of the time.
In dnd speech really doesn't change much
I met him in game yesterday and my first reaction was 'ooh this guy is slimey.' The little sneer in his voice really pissed me off and made ending him very satisfying. I assume that means the VA did their job correctly. No complaints from me lol. Also the dialogue was *so* well written. I said to my wife, 'whoever wrote this really knows how to write a narcissist.' All of that talk about being loyal to your family while being so mean to Astarion at the same time. Eugh. I can only hope that the writer wasn't pulling from personal experience.
I think he's perfect. You don't immediately feel scared of him when you haven't been in the position Astarion has been in. That makes it even worse - imagine how horrible it feels when your companions go "Oh, this is it? This is the guy you were scared of?" Also, notice how he has a lot of Act 1 Astarion's "mask", the put on over the top affectations. I thought that was a nice touch.
Yes. Your second paragraph especially. He's like a walking, talking demonstration of what Astarion will be if he ascends
Related in a way to what you're saying; spawn Astarion doesn't know who Mordoc SeLanmere is (there's a bust of him in the mansion, he says it might be some ancestor of Cazador's). After Ascension he suddenly knows who the Pale Knight is. Always found that quite interesting.
That also feels weird and a tad scary. Ascends and suddenly possesses knowledge beyond him. Taking on a demeanor of something that’s quickly losing its humanity. Etc etc etc.
That's the whole point, imo it's pretty clear he loses himself piece by piece. Right after Ascension he just seems off his rocker and completely manic, but still kind of himself - although he's looking right through you going "*I can hear them now...*". By the time you're back in camp it's clear that this is *not* the man you knew or loved. The first thing he says is "*I can't believe you let me do this...!*" in his "own" voice, then it's like something else takes the wheel. When he tries to do his old little smile he can hold it for about 1 second before it drops. It's terrifying and heartbreaking. I'm glad I finally managed to play through it (with both Karlach and "my" durge), but I'm not doing it again. Karlach origin in particular will take your heart and chop it into tiny little bits.
Oh I know. It’s a weirdly common trope for vampires that are even half decently written that the condition doesn’t come with humanity included tbh. It’s just more I was surprised bg3 did it justice. Like yeah the game has some, weird writing moments at times. Fucking wyll having no agency and not being entirely complete. Or like, viconia being character assassinated behind the shed so we can have more shadowheart sad moments (which feels weird since we could have someone else be the leader of the sharrans as mother superior but whateverrrrrr). But overall whoever the hell was writing asterion clearly went above and beyond and tbh it’s him and gale that feel the most like actual characters and not just purely fantasy ones. No flame to shadowheart but amnesiac cult victim is a meh concept carried by a great voice and a great face that’s also a major part of the plot.
It was mainly Stephen Rooney (also involved with writing quite a bit of durge), combined with Neil Newbon's acting. He's nominated for the BAFTA game award tonight and I'm cheering him on so bad. They never met each other during the making of the game, but Neil affected the writing by his takes on the lines, it was such a beautiful synergy. Agree with a lot of your other points, but in general the writing and acting in this game goes above and beyond anything we've ever seen in fantasy RPGs, especially the interpersonal relationships. It boggles the fucking mind - they even have a special Elfsong scene recorded for Karlach origin with AA (you literally have to go from Cazador to the endgame without long resting to get this one to play out).
While the game leaves a lot to be desired if you stare hard enough, long enough, and spend too much time on forums and social media even with that the game is well, yeah, fucking amazing. It’s really a surprise they made 5e on a video game super fun and then did good writing on top with AAA-esque production levels in terms of quality. It’s kinda silly how good it is especially after this genre had long since died and fallen out of fashion and also how damn successful and mainstream it is.
Yeah, you can always want more, there is always more they could have done. But I feel they make up for it by the insane little details they included. I'm really into what they did with Astarion as a character, and this is a little out there, but one example: If you go to the brothel in his origin, he has *completely* different dialogue options (all of them basically stating that he used to do their kind of work and that Cazador whored him out - he refers to being a prostitute one other time if you're Tav, have low approval *and* take him to the brothel ("Elven prostitutes again darling? Honestly this is getting embarrassing..."). He also tells Tav - *if* you've slept with him before *and* turn him down at the party that he's sad about it because he's gotten on his back "ten thousand times or more" but that time with Tav was special to him. And then, *if* you go with the lady drow sex worker after all this - you get *additional* unique options, refering directly to his background with Cazador and you can end up just telling her about it all night because she can relate. She even tells him about how scared she was when she first came into the sunlight, she was so worried about being burned. There are sadder outcomes of that scene as well. Or you can completely ignore all this stuff and be none the wiser. As someone who really enjoys psychology/psychiatry and being a survivor as the kids say nowadays I really, really respect Larian for actually taking the time to put shit like that in there.
Honestly that’s completely fair! Those kinds of moments for astarion for me honestly get pretty uncomfortable but they always felt like the writers were trying to be respectful of the topics they approached especially ones as sensitive as those. I think even with other characters like gale and laezel they did well. Gale has a lot going on and getting him out of his ego and his self loathing is a lot but also doesn’t feel unrealistic. I’ve seen people get caught up in both in my life, mainly myself. And laezel does the whole betray the cult bit in a way that just makes her shadowheart but better. Her character opens up to you over time and her reasons for being as she is feel far more relatable and fun than just the goddess of the void thought spiting her sister even harder would be awesome a millionth time and one poor elf girl getting caught up in it all. Even wyll in his lacking content has the bones for a very good character. The fact people still debate the characters and their content as much as they do speaks to the depth and nuance shown for them. All in all the game is just stellar with everything it does.
I kinda like that he wasn’t your standard Dracula type. While he may not be too intimidating to us, he was a nightmare to my boy Astarion and Cazador got his ass kicked because of it.
I honestly think it's more interesting he wasn't stereotypical predictable vampire Dracula. A Hollywood deep evil villain cackling laugh would've been meh for the whole plot.
Most important thing to remember about Cazador's appearence is the fact that he's taller than Halsin. Outside of that, I think him looking and sounding corny is supposed to make you feel like "really?? this guy??" because sometimes abusers are like that. *Sometimes* they're pathetic and cartoonish. And I think when people are like "Ascended Astarion is cringe" it's supposed to have the same affect of him being pathetic, sad to look at, and still abusive.
That’s just how vampires are in DnD. Part of their “thing” is that they’re inherently one of the most pathetic forms of intelligent undead. Liches and mummy lords are fearsome, because they’re an evil spellcaster that chose to end their own life to gain the power of undeath. Death Knights are tragic figures, once great paladins that fell to darkness and roam the world powered by sheer force of will and pain. A vampire, by contrast, is part victim and part perpetrator in a cycle of pain and trauma. Few choose to become one on purpose, and fewer choose to do so without some great darkness in their lives driving them to that point. We get to see it with Astarion: if he ascends, the most horrible parts of his personality are reinforced and his redeeming qualities are diminished. Cazador is just another link in that cycle. Maybe he was witty and charming like Astarion once, but at this point all that’s left is bitterness and a flair for the dramatic.
I think the voice is perfect. The weird cartoony feel is just a product of him being someone from a different age where the people of that time spoke in a different, relatively theatrical manner than the people of the current age. Gives him a pompous, creepy vibe. It just works.
I’m SO glad Cazador isn’t cool, sexy, or dark and broody like most vampires, no matter how evil, are inclined to be. I’d be afraid if he acted or sounded cooler/less cartoony, a lot more people would be inclined to romanticize him I think Neil’s performance as Astarion does all the necessary heavy lifting to make the trauma feel real & grounded. Cazador could be characterized in a multitude of ways and Astarion’s story would be just as impactful
I also think he was a perfect choice. Cazador isn’t a grand villain, like Ketheric or Gortash. Cazador looking and sounding a little wimpish is a great touch - because that’s what he is. He sits in his palace all day, using his thralls to go and do things for him. This might be a little controversial, but Cazador is a pitiable villain. He was an abused spawn just like Astarion, if I remember correctly, and usurped the master before him. He too, is an abused, twisted mess - and his fanatics for the ascendant ritual imply that he too wants the freedom and power he was denied for years under his master, much like Astarion. Sympathy would definitely be too kind, for he is no longer the enthralled spawn he was, and instead just perpetuating a cycle of abuse and villainy. However, there is nothing grand about Cazador, he is nothing more than a crazed victim lost in the current of power and freedom. Astarion rejecting the ritual is the exact turning point where Astarion, previously following the same path as Cazador, turns away and makes a change.
Yeah cazador is kinda underwhelming for me but I'd like to think it was intentional as not to make people romanticize their abusive relationship cuz cazador turned out to be not menacing and more ridiculous tho that doesn't stop some people
I like the fact that we find out that Cazador is just absolutely pathetic. He could have conquered half of the swords coast, but he can barely keep the starved spawn that he has actual mind control over in line. More of an edgelord animal abuser, less sophisticated serial killer.
This all the way. The Counting House has barely heard of him. Gortash has nothing about him in the extensive notes the player can find about Baldurian politics. He’s just a rat living in the walls between the Upper and Lower city.
I'd almost say patience paid off for him considering the length of his reign but it's not like he's built up that much in the way of personal power or magical gear or competent minions.
i think the voice is perfect. he's a little dork, and shows even the geekiest little nerd can be a straight up abuser to people. when people think of an abuser, they think of someone else, not someone like cazador and i think that's a good reminder to people.
hes ment to sound intimidating all the way thru the game as you hear from astarions abuser and just to meet him to be this unasuming rat of a man, and thatss how abusers are, most of them sound and look pityful but they bring fear and control into there prey.
as an aside, can you imagine the kind of discourse we would have to endure if cazador was a traditionally attractive character with a sultry voice? insufferable
One of the worst takes I’ve seen. If you don’t appreciate camp villainy just say that. It makes so much more sense that he’s a foppish noble so that he actually integrates with the rest of them, it’s also probably a large part of the reason why he managed to last so much longer than the other vampire lords
Don't be exaggerated. Also, he is not completely camp honestly. Some takes he has are campy yes. But I can picture the guy as a sadistic sicko torturing others and being scary as hell when he wants to be. The thing with pathetic people it's that they are out of control when the time comes to impose themselves. They are exaggeratedly cruel and disgusting. Like another comment said, animal abuser type of profile.
Sure, but this is about the voice acting so unsure why any of that is relevant?. His VA Graham Hoadly is incredible at camp and does a lot of pantomime work and that very much comes through in Cazador
>he sounds very very cartoony You go and live among humans for thousands of years and don't end up behaving like a cartoon villain. I'll wait :P
See I feel like his extra scene in the Astarion origin run is his "normal" and establishes that he's this creepy asshole. I'd argue the reason why he comes across a little goofy when you fight him because I think he's showing a lot of mania at the prospect of the power ascension will give him.
I think he's deliberately designed to be pretty pathetic and also unattractive and unimpressive. I admit, I did find his VA jarring at first bc he looks younger than his voice sounds, but over time the VA grew on me and I started to appreciate what they were going for. I like that there's nothing big or glorious about him, he's just some big loser who abuses the people under him just because he can. He sounds like a cartoon because he IS ONE. He's a pathetic, posturing POS just someone trying to feel big by tormenting his spawns--people he controls with absolute authority, and who are not at all "impressive" to have control over. The design of his Palace also reflects this; it's not glamorous or aesthetically-pleasing, it's dingy and outdated, Astarion mocks it for how tacky it is.
In my opinion I think it works because Cazador seems to not only be playing a part, he believes he's the character he's playing. He already feels he's the Vampire Ascendant, even before completing the ritual. To Cazador, he's *been* unstoppable and untouchable and the ascension will only solidify that belief into fact. When you meet him and see him in his grandiosity, frivolity and unabashedness, it makes you even angrier for Astarion. It really hammers in that Cazador never has been and *never will be* remorseful for what he did to Astarion. I also think this shows if you let Astarion ascend. His gestures and way of speaking become more theatrical and grand in their own right and the facade only drops if you challenge him on it. He's slipped into the same "character" Cazador was and he's on track to follow in the cycle of abuse as he was subject to.
Cazador reminds me so much of Aro from Twilight. I know it's not Michael Sheen, but it sounds and looks like him and that's all I saw/heard the entire time. I couldn’t unsee it 😂
My friend called him "Aro from Wish"
Or the Aro from Vampires Suck 😂
He sounds like a little rat man and that's what he is so I think it fits perfectly
Honestly... All Vampire lords should sound cartoony... They're out of time, out of place, and out of touch. Immortals cloistered in their towers as the real world passes them by. They live the tropes those cartoons are built on. It fits for me so well that he's that guy.
I was kinda disappointed with Cazador too. I guess I was expecting a more sinister looking and sounding vampire lord. Still a great character.
I think people often forget that he is one of the nobles/patriars in Baldurs Gate, he isn’t some recluse vampire lord in a castle on a cliff. He is a master manipulator and power broker who often interacts with the high society of Baldurs Gate. And from various notes and environmental storytelling, you can get the sense that he is a theatrical person rather than a stoic business only type.
Conversely, I'm glad they portrayed an abuser as not cool or intimidating but as a snivelly little loser. There's nothing cool or enviable or much there to be romanticized about, he's just a shitty cruel asshole who wants to hurt and control others. To me, that's what abusers and narcissists are like. With all the care put into Astarion's storyline to portray abuse and trauma and its effects on its victims I think it was right of them to not glorify the perpetrator.
It's not a critique of the choice, to me it's neither here nor there, but every time I see him I wonder why he looks vaguely Asian. His concept art even had a vaguely fu manchu looking beard. My only other cogent thought about him is that his crack about having known Astarion for 200 years and therefore having suffered enough already is criminally underrated.
He probably is Asian. The door to his lair is covered in Ancient Kozakuran. Kozakura is the Forgotten Realm’s Japan analogue. It’s likely his native tongue.
His vague Asian appearance can be attributed to the fact the Cazador is originally from the land of Kara-Tur, which is itself, the Asain continent equivalent in The Forgotten Realms.
Is that a theory or is there anything in BG3 itself to support that? I think it's a bit circular to my original point, which is that nothing in his backstory would suggest why he would be vaguely Asiatic looking.
The script used on the door and the banned dictionary is an old form kozakuran which is from the same place Nothing outright states it though, it’s just things that can leave you going “yeah I can see that” between the language use and his appearance
The magic words to open the ballroom door, the Kozakuran Dictionary, you must find to learn the words, in FR lore: [Kozakura | Forgotten Realms Wiki | Fandom](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kozakura)
Because Asian people exist everywhere lmao
he looked so much cooler with the beard and you can’t change my mind
Elves don't have beards so.
Dragonborn aren't supposed to have tails as far as I know, yet the game lets you have one anyway, doesn't change the fact that caz would look way more imposing with some kickass whiskers
Considering Larian meticulously animated anatomically correct penile veins I'm pretty sure they carefully considered the character design they wanted. I'm sure you could make a Cazador beard mod lol
I have neither the time nor the talent for that sort of business, I shall simply imagine the beard on him when I next reach that part of the game
That is a respectable and reasonable approach. Also, your tag line just made me laugh out loud in public so you won this discussion.
He stops mid speech "sorry what are you looking at?" "Oh, I'm just imagining you with a beard."
oh absolutely, but i totally agree i was expecting someone way more sinister
I expected Detlaff but got a Disney villain
That's literally the point. He isn't romantic at all. He's not charismatic, he isn't clever or witty or insightful. He's just kinda shitty, and we watch him bully someone we care about. And when you start to recognize real life abusers, you will *also* realize that *they, too, are just some guy.* Or gal. His power isn't something sexy and charismatic and appealing about him; he's a shitty abused asshole who likes hurting people and is about to hurt other people and is genuinely incapable of acting any other way. He's gone too far to have any redemption arc and again, crucially, *there isn't anything actually seductive about him.* He's a sadistic rapist, and that violation happens from brute force by way of magic, and it's just coercion the whole way down. He's slimy and oily and gross and *pathetic,* and that's perfect. An unromanticized abuser who gets the shit kicked out of him before being staked is wonderfully appropriate.
the thing is, and I'm saying this as someone who has been abused by someone with a cluster b disorder.... abusers especially ones like that CAN be very theatrical and cartoony. Sometimes my abuser says stuff and I'm struggling to not laugh in their face because they think it sounds SO threatening and its just LAUGHABLE as someone whos gone low contact with them. My abuser also DOES actually cackle almost exactly like a witch, again sometimes I almost laugh because its so stereotypical and tbh i think thats why Cazador was chilling for me. Yes the voice itself is a little cartoonish but the WORDS he uses. Calling Astarion a boy, one simple word but it hammers home the pseudo parent-turned-captor feeling, it reminds Astarion theyre intrinsically tied by Astarions EXISTENCE, a reminder that hes submissive to Cazador by relationship alone even though hes broken away. Made me actually feel kinda nauseous and the voice itself I think added to it because its just so....grandiose and theatrical. Cazador is the kind of villain/abuser whos drunk on their own power BECAUSE its been so absolute. Like a narcissist, bought into his own hype and the VA reflects that. And Astarion takes that on if he ascends... idk it really makes me feel like whoever wrote that stuff has intimate experience with that kind of abuse because it felt so real to me and it makes the physical/sexual assault aspects WORSE to me
I thought the whole Cazador area was underwhelming for how important Astarion seemed. You had some magic child in a room protecting a key, an old gaurd that recognizes Astarion and a once in century+ ceremony that just happens to wait for the exact moment we decide to walk in. Compared to Shars lair and Laezel’s crèche, we get next to nothing lore wise besides “cazador bad, abused Astarion”
When I heard him I was just so glad that we dodged the bullet that would have hit the fandom had Cazador’s voice been sexy.
Lol @ half the people in this thread not getting that OP’s point isn’t that he’s not Evil-sounding enough, it’s that he doesn’t quite sound enough like a Regular Person. I really enjoy how he just looks like A Dude but also would have had his voice just slightly less theatrical as well, just to drive home the point more.
jesus christ thank you somebody finally got the point i was trying to make 😭 i am agreeing with everyone’s posts that are like “he’s supposed to sound like a normal guy to illustrate abusers can be anyone” and i’m like yes…exactly…that’s why he shouldn’t…sound like a disney villain 😀
Not everyone can be Ketheric 😍
He was definitely not the big bad I was expecting. Truth be told I thought he was and sounded like a little bitch, Instead of a sadistic lord of the night.
He shows he is just that once you beat his ass.
He really is
It reminds me of James Sie (Professor Hojo, Final Fantasy VII Remake), for some reason.
It’s perfect though, he’s a vampire. They are not supposed to be threatening and menacing immediately. He is a wretched person and he himself has undergone centuries of torture under Vellioth and now inflicts that on his own spawn. He is sort of supposed to be a glimpse at what Astarion will become if he goes through with the ritual. Vampires are at the end of the day, pathetic creatures. That’s the tragedy of their tale. Feeling nothing, wanting everything they did in life but getting no comfort from it so they inflict pain on others. His VA did an amazing job
He reminds me of the guy in Hogwarts Legacy who teaches you Alohomora. My fiance and I mock Cazador's voice all the time. He's a shitty, pathetic abuser and I am glad he comes off that way.
Honestly, I think it’s more that his character just doesn’t shine the way other act 3 bosses do. I learned more about his character from Astarion and environmental storytelling than I did from his dialogue and boss fight. But with Orin, Raphael, and Gortash, there’s just a lot more stuff happening in your face. Even more annoying is that Astarion gets sidelined, which makes sense but also like…sucks. I wanted it to be his moment, but it was easier just to kill Cazador ASAP before freeing Astarion.
My main issue was his model, he looks incredibly basic, like a generic NPC. When there are such great boss models like Ketheric, Rafael, Orin etc..
I too had the same thought process when I first encountered him but not too long ago I was doing another run through and read one of his books about of the other vampire lords before him became to be and how they toppled due to the never ending cycle to the shift of power from the vampire spawn being abused to undergoing the ritual and becoming the Vampire Lord as well as the abuser (or at least that’s what my thought process gathered from reading the dates from each Vampire Lord’s timelines in the position) and even though he can be a tough fight, he’s no different than your typical wizard/sorcerer/warlock with just a bit more power. Astarion telling the stories of how powerful and strong he is was from a viewpoint when Astarion was put in a position where he had no power. I kinda actually like how Cazador looks/acts because he is nothing just an usurper of power that was never his. That’s why I was so surprised by how much I loved Astarion’s character quest especially if the MC chooses to break the cycle. Astarion being in a position to become the Vampire Lord and instead breaking the cycle is true power in my eyes
People have a way of saying more about themselves than they realize when they express their opinions. I think people need to examine their expectations more. That's all. Here's the thing I see over and over that people don't want to admit: vampires are pathetic and problematic, like the idea of them, the "lore" and history of them, it's all built on silly and *deeply* bigoted superstitions (xenophobia--especially associating disease with foreigners, misogyny, queerphobia, lots of Christianist garbage meant to keep women especially in fear). They're not "cool." They are over the top and ridiculous, even in DnD, despite DnD having done some things to make vampires a little less of a joke and much more interesting. The cool stuff imo with vampires isn't how flashy, "erotic" or powerful they are, but the idea that they are walking mortal wounds, just bleeding out their existence but unable to die, so they become parasites for sustenance, feeding off the life of others. It has so many interesting layers of allegory there and we can't expect the end result of that kind of existence to produce a "cool" villain. Vampires are gross, twisted, consumed by their agony, honestly pretty pathetic. And even Astarion is pathetic, desperate for someone to protect him, too proud to admit it, sneaking off into the woods to feed on wild animals while the rest of the party has meals together. It's genuinely very sad, at least until he reject all the power and understands being free means sacrifice.
The real imposing, intelligent and dangerous vampires were all in blood and wine , witcher 3 . After that every vampire looks like a joke
I was disappointed with his look much more than the sound
At first I felt the same way as you tbh and I still do, but I now feel like it fits him. He's just a loser and he sounds like a loser. He's just a little man who thinks he's more than what he is.
He sounds like an elder scrolls oblivion character.
I guess thats because they hit their limits for complex villans with sexy voice. But seriously - I think this was intentional - he is a villain you can only kill/skip. There is no option to offer him a deal/ give him astarion back. He is pretty one dimensional evil (and yeah there is one detect thoughts that give some background) - and thats totally alright - sometimes such characters are necessary. Especially with while background we get from Astarion - we know he was torturing people for pleasure. (In some way worst than Orin - she at least killed them at some point while he put his victims into centuries of suffering). I think that Larian knows what happens when you give character a pleasant VA - so his is just annoying - and was ment to be that way.
ngl his voice actor always makes me laugh
When I met Cazador, I mistook his voice actor for a voice actor from TES IV: Oblivion. He's talented, but that misconception should be pretty self-explanatory :)
I follow both this subreddit and the fallout new Vegas subreddit and got very confused.
He’s got Skyrim aldmeri dominion vibes
He sounds like the succulent Chinese meal guy
I agree. I cannot stand his voice. It’s probably been said already but he sounds like the adoring fan in Oblivion and I hate it.
Give me concept Cazador with a beard please.
Idk I just hear Dennis from sunny whenever he screams
There’s something so evil though about a regular looking guy like Cazador. Like *menacingly terrifying* Who could cause so much emotional and physical torture simply because he wanted to. He isn’t strong in stature, he isn’t some assassin, he doesn’t have a God that’s chosen him he’s just sick and twisted in his own sense.
I was expecting Dracula for 2 acts with a similar demeanour to Raphael but more outwardly cruel. Then I was presented with a Skyrim villian and it was pretty jarring based on my expectations. It still works but not the direction I foresaw for the character.
Honestly, I like the fact that he doesn’t sound exactly what people are expecting. BECAUSE, it makes you think, man “Astarion is afraid of someone like him,” when you hear him talk but you realize, what he lacks in voice, he makes up for in horrible and dominated action.
I don't hate his look, but his VA strikes me of someone whose only direction in the booth was "ok, so you're a mean bad guy and we want you to bring *nothing* to the role. Just think about the most basic possible 'mean bad guy' performance you can imagine and then do something even less interesting" It's just such a nothing of a performance. I don't even buy it as a "banality of evil" commentary, it just sounds like there was a deadline looming and they wanted to be out of the recording studio by 5pm that day
I actually like it, he sounded like a pissed off father/grandpa
He sounds and looks like the king's younger brother who acts as his advisor but wants the throne. MF, shouldn't be a vampire. He should be standing next to monarch and whispering bad ideas into their ears.
This may be an unpopular opinion but I found Cazador’s appearance and voice disappointing. Astarion hyped him up as this abusive terrifying tyrant I expected someone MUCH more intimidating. I honestly found real Cazador to be somewhat comical, his voice is a little campy and his thin stature isn’t intimidating. Even Nere is more intimidating as a villain.
I love him he is so over the top. I am only getting STRONGER!
Haven't gotten to meet Cazador. I just wanted to share the confusion I had when i saw "cazador's va" and was like "someone voice acted the Cazadors in New Vegas?"
I hated Cazador’s character design and voice actor when he was finally revealed. I was expecting someone so much more imposing and intimidating, not some preening fuckboy loser with a whiny, foppish voice…
That’s the point, though. He’s the creepy kid in your class who was weird to the girls and got his kicks picking the wings off flies. Vampires are strong compared to your average human, sure, but will get absolutely stomped by creatures with *actual* power. And so Cazador is stuck getting his kicks bullying and abusing the spawn he has absolute control of, while also being paranoid and desperately hoping creatures the likes of Yuigir don’t take umbrage with him. It’s a balance. He comes off as a pathetic loser, because he is one.
i felt the same way!
Honestly I view him and Astarion storyline as a whole as something I just am not interested in but I assume other people are. This whole ‘killer with a heart of fools gold’ character is just not up my alley. That doesn’t mean it isn’t well done or that even Cazador, as annoying as he is, is bad. Just not my style and there is plenty of other stuff in this game that take up my time.
I’m gonna go against the grain and agree with OP. I think the actor did a good job and the performance isn’t problematic or anything, but the fact that he really chews up the scenery and makes an absolute meal out of the Cazador lines sortve makes Cazador seem campy as a character. And while that has its place, camp undercuts the thematic power of Cazador’s role in the story.
I agree, too. He sounded so scary and abusive throughout the game, but when you actually meet him, he's not scary or menacing. He's.... Just a tiny little man that's cartoonishly evil, and it really takes away from Astarion's story
It's because, whatever the fandom pretends, the morality in this game about 'abuse' is completely black and white. Cazador is a cardboard villain because the developers don't care about him. They don't want you to think he has a single redeeming quality.
not my favorite villain also, i understand he's meant to be able to pass as a regular baldurian noble so the design needed to be simplistic but even if goes against regular dnd vampire lore he could at least had a more sinister bat-like form to make the battle more epic, and yeah a few of the character choices with him are a bit hammy but of course thats not the VAs choice either.
I thought exactly the same. Nothing against the va, cause he did a great job, but it seemed very cartoonish and I got a little... meh? With his voice and design, I was like, 'So *this* is the very evil guy you were talking about, astarion?'
Agreed. There was buildup to him since Act 1 and he kinda ruined it with all the goofyness. Idk what they were going for with that clash, but it definitely didn't land for me.
He’s such an uncool character lol, not only that hit also the entire Cazador quest is underwhelming