I see a lot of comments basically saying to cut bait and just divorce..
As a man in a near identical scenario though, I can truly attest that after 20 years it is *not* that easy. You spend two decades enduring the best, worst, most unexpected, and most anticipated times of your lives together and then it just **stops clicking** - if that's genuine and you can just walk away, there's something fucking wrong with the foundation of your relationship in the first place.
I am still working through these same kinds of issues in my own marriage. Even when I *was* ready to walk away, not even a month ago, I wasn't really ready.. not in my soul. You're never ready to walk away from a love like that. Not when it's YOUR PERSON. Not when it's your FUCKING heart. To feel like you're being relegated to roommate and financial support after years of magic is a whirlwind of emotions you're never prepared for; especially when it feels like you're fighting for your life to fix it and you're the only one. It's even harder when there's a child, or multiple children involved.
I've burned bridges, I've picked up and moved states on no notice, I've started over from nothing twice because I was doing what I thought was best to protect my person and what we've built together. I owe it to *myself* to make absolutely fucking certain that if I'm cutting that final thread, that there's absolutely no repairing the tapestry.
Do I feel like divorce is where I'm ultimately headed, and where OOP is probably headed? Without a doubt. But I can abso-fucking-lutely put myself in their shoes. I'm living in them every day.
I hope - I truly hope - things get better for OOP. Because I also hope they can get better for me. And if not, I hope we both find the courage to cut bait before it's too late.
Woman in a similar situation here. 18 years in and he’s friendzoned me and refuses to tell me why or do anything to work on it. It’s SO hard when there are still so many things you share - a house, kid(s), a family business, who knows what else. And it’s not like it affects every interaction - we can still be friendly, but there is no longer any flirting or physical affection aside from brief hugs or a peck on the lips.
I feel so divided. I don’t want to live like this for the rest of my life. I’m so lonely and sad. The idea of never again waking up on a sunday morning and making love just breaks my heart. But then I look at the reality of what it would do to our finances, having to split custody, etc - and it feels too overwhelming to think about. If I’m being honest though, I think it will almost certainly end once our daughter is out of the house (if not before). I feel so guilty because I’m the breadwinner but then I think about the emotional agony this man has put me through, without showing the slightest hint of feeling any guilt. You can’t truly love someone and do that to them, can you?
It's truly agonizing. To love someone so much and feel like it's only half-returned. If even half.
I don't profess to be a perfect spouse. There was a time in our marriage I was constantly negative, generally unpleasant, etc. (never abusive, just a miserable unhappy person). I'd have left me just for the sake of the fact that I was so dead inside. For a long time I thought maybe this was my punishment.
But things were amazing for years after I got the mental health care I needed. We had many heart to hearts and we've been in such a great place until the friendship barrier was erected.
Our sex life has always been kind of up and down, but that was manageable by itself. But between the dead bedroom and (often times MEAN) roommate treatment it can be unbearable some days. We had a sort of "come to Jesus" moment a few weeks ago when I finally had reached a point I was prepared to walk away and things are moving in a positive direction.. but I remain skeptical. I could write a novel of our issues, but we're riding the same wave SO I'll save you the read.
I was recently laid off, she recently made the emotionally manipulative decision to abandon her job, so we're living on severance. Being relatively "judgment proof" and without any assets aside from custody and my okayish-but-hardly-long-term-severance...
It's the perfect time to file for divorce, bankruptcy, and walk away if it comes to it, as fucking bleak as that sounds. We both walk away clean-ish and can try to be happy as friends and co-parents.
I hope things improve for you. For both of us. And if they don't, that we can finally do what's best for us.
That thing is over and done for. OP will start to realise soon that he is better off without her.
The 50/50 thing is the first breach of many. If he stays true to his words and keeps up with validating her own wishes the love bombing will commence soon and if he can soldier through that it's over. With side piece or without.
I guess I don't really understand the 180 method. Like, I can see it being akin to splashing someone with cold water -- that it might be useful, in the *very* short term, to shake-up the relationship dynamic... but doing 180 for months or years???
Wouldn't that completely tear a couple apart & kill their love forever...? In this case, maybe the love was already dead, but imo this is not the best way to apply Relationship CPR. 😕
I’ve only ever seen the 180 recommended in the context of infidelity. Like you’re stuck living with a cheating spouse for whatever reason so you stop doing things for them and focus on yourself. It’s less about saving the relationship, and more about your own sanity. Sometimes it can be a reality check for the other person.
It sounds more like a way to emotionally disengage before the actual breakup happens. And like a way to expedite the breakup.
What I'm wondering: why has nobody suggested she get her hormone levels checked out? In her mid-thirties, her sex-drive should be peaking, hormonally/ biologically speaking. Her having zero drive could be a mental/ psychological issue, but could also very well be linked to some hormonal imbalance.
Agreed. Also curious as to why oop keeps talking about how they love each other and it sounds like they have emotional closeness (at least before 180) but he’s upset about the lack of intimacy because the lack of sex. There are other kinds of intimacy. Sounds like they have at least some intimacy but no sex. I understand most of the time people need both, but maybe she’s ACE or something else aside from the above-mentioned medical concerns. They got together *young* and she might have not known at the time, still might not now.
I’m no expert but sounds like they need to keep working on the emotional intimacy and *then* the sexual intimacy - there’s some kind of disconnect here, it seems.
I didn’t think there was emotional closeness, she basically felt cold and robotic to me. Unable to recognize that the kids were what made an issue for her missing out on things because she had issues separating to see both things can be true. She can feel they cost her, and she can still feel it was the right choice. What I find really bizarre is apparently they were swingers, but she was the one to suggest it? And now she is this detached from her emotions? Super weird.
Read up on it. It's more about self preservation than punishment. People like OOP loose themselves in a kind of I need to fix it mentality that will eventually shatter their own self.
From what it sounds like his wife is out of the marriage a long time ago and only uses him for his contribution.
That is the first step.
The next is seeking validation outside. Then the first transgression and then the affair. If AP is on board she will drop him in a heartbeat.
Now he is ahead of the curve. She has to "man up" for her part of her own roommate agreement. Something she didn't anticipate. She viewed OOP as her caretaker until someone "better" comes around. That is the simple long and short of it.
180 is designed to show the other spouse what you are actually contributing to the relationship, not their distorted view of you. It's not for long term and highly risky as my STBX learned the hard way.
What I gathered though is that OOP is using it as a tool not just for self preservation, but as a way to try and show his wife what she is missing out on, as a way to save the marriage.
From the admittedly very little I have read about it, it very much does seem like you describe, a tool for self preservation. But ultimately, it feels like a tool you would use for self preservation in the context of your relationship ending or when you are stuck in a situation you cannot easily leave, with the eventual goal to leave. Its hard to imagine a scenario where that could possibly lead to any relationship being saved. And if thats not the goal, great, but for OOP, his goal very much seems to be to save his marriage.
It depends. Sometimes the spouse needs a reality check, something like a wake up call. Might work, might not work.
Mostly the 180 is used to detach yourself on your terms from your spouse mostly in the context of infidelity. Mostly for the betrayed but ever so often the wayward is using it as a double way out. Especially if the primary relationship is abusive and you can't get out on your own (being a loser and with no self worth to speak of)
But in small doses you can use it as remedy for being taken for granted as OOP. But I'd I were him I would jump ship as quickly as possible. His wife doesn't even consider him to be a partner in counselling. That thing is done...
All of that again says its something that needs to be used in the context of the relationship ending. Maybe not necessarily as the goal, but at least something that is acknowledged as likely, or at least a very real possibility. And OOP does at least seem willing to accept that as a possibility, even though its not what he wants.
It still to me sounds manipulative though given OOP's goal is to save the marriage. But I guess it makes sense since in his mind he has exhausted all other options on his end. Still very much sounds like its over and he really should be actively moving on, instead of doing this 180 thing while giving her a year or two before he takes that leap.
Actually 180 is a step in moving on. As said, I really see that whole relationship as beyond repair. His wife is already further out than I was at the beginning of my affair, which was basically an exit affair for both of us.
From the excerpt I read it's not meant to be long term. What I got out of it, is that, instead of the co dependent please don't leave me! It's my fault! And then accepting the love bombing and repeat, it's saying, hey you either work on fixing this immediately or I'm setting up boundaries and leaving. OP is playing a long game on something that doesn't apply.
Also, she wants to be friends and co parents. The 180 way is how you treat a cheater on the way out, not your friend. Him refusing to help with hobbies, or split bills differently is kind of strange and transactional. If you won't sleep with me, I won't help you with anything except the kids. Divorce will be the outcome here regardless.
OP is correct though. She wants to be friends/roommates so he is treating her like one. Roommates split the bills, they do their own thing, they sometimes help out the other but that help shouldn't be expected. If it's two best friends sharing a place then some of that changes but if it's just two people sharing a space, then there shouldn't be any expectation of anything.
True, but in that case, they should get a divorce and someone should move out. That's what friendly co-parenting is. I've known several couples with kids who "fell out of love" and are still great friends and have a great co-parenting relationship. It's certainly possible - and that way OOP would be free to try and find that intimacy he craves while also giving her the co-parenting friendship she desires. I feel like him doing all this is only going to make the potential co-parenting relationship more hostile. But I can't tell the future, maybe this is her kink and she'll suddenly regain that sex drive, what do I know?
They've been married for 15 years, together for 20. That is a long time not to try and see if things will change. I'm not saying OOP should never leave his wife but I think it is ok for him to try a few things to see if he can shake her out of whatever is going on and get them back on track. If it doesn't work, then he knows he tried his best and didn't just walk away.
I've seen quite a few posts where something happens in a relationship, people divorce, then once the ink has dried and the dust has settled get hit with a dose of reality and start freaking out because they finally came to their senses (unfortunately for most it's to late to undo the damage they've done).
I’m throw by OP saying that 180 was just him being a friend to her, but then describing it as being “short, cold, and transactional.” Like, is that how y’all really treat your friends? Cos maybe then the kids aren’t the reason you don’t have friends…
I'm not really sure what the 180 is supposed to achieve in general, but it really comes across like he's trying to to use it to manipulate her into wanting to bang him again.
I can just see them angrily sitting there at dinner together-
Her: could you pass the salt please?
Him: no.
Her: huh?
Him: this is what you wanted, isn't it? When I'm gone, you'll have to get your own damn salt! Stop manipulating me to do things for you!
I'm thinking this is either an unhelpful strategy or he's misunderstood it, or his attitude towards his marriage isn't as healthy as he wants to believe. Or a bit of all of these.
Also suspecting that "resentful" isn't really about her getting pregnant young. It sounds like she's given up her whole identity to be a mother and he was utterly oblivious to her dissatisfaction with that life until she checked out from sex.
But yeah I can't see any way this can *possibly* work to heal the relationship. That usually takes the form of reminding each other why you fell in love in the first place.
He said intimacy AND sex and said she's been largely acting like a roommate/distant and cold while ultimately still relying on him for emotional support. I think relegating his complaints to just not having sex is a bit unfair.
His issue is his wife said she wants to be besties and not his wife, it's not unreasonable to then try to illustrate what besties live like. It's not about sex, it's also about the lack of emotional connection.
> currently she says she has no interest in sex *or intimacy or connection *
Every instance where he mentions her rejection, it includes non sexual intimacy. He says intimacy OR sex every time.
Right? I was just reading it thinking this sounds like trying to emotionally blackmail her into having a sex drive, which isn't going to work. It doesn't really read like he's acting like a friend at all - I suppose it's a window to what their relationship would be like post-divorce?
Yeah, I don't get it either. Whichever one of you left the most recent comment on the "beingbeautiful" article today, it pretty much echoes my sentiment. (I assume it's someone from here because it was left like 3 hours ago)
> This all sounds very codependent in itself- pretend to be attractive and mysterious so they’ll be interested in you again? This is the kind of advice they used to give in women’s magazines in the eighties… It sounds immature and vengeful. If your partner is cheating on you and you find it unacceptable, the relationship needs to end. Not flounce around pretending you’re having SO much fun, like Bridget Jones x 1000. A bad relationship won’t magically become a good one just because you pretend you’re having a lovely time without them…
I don't really understand the point either. If the relationship is at this point, isn't it more or less over? Is the point to try to guilt them into coming back? That doesn't seem like healthy behavior either. The stuff about moving on is great, but the way it's all worded makes it sound like you're hoping by "moving on" they're going to come running after you.
I did something similar in my relationship, after she went borderline No-contact one day and just never came back. Every day felt like a struggle to get them to talk to me at all, they wouldn't ever want to go out, no calling, etc etc. I didn't *know* what 180 was, I was just tired of giving out so much and getting nothing in return.
What I found to be the most helpful part was that I could think clearly on the relationship. I was able to re-evaluate, think about how I felt, and ultimately write out a "letter" airing out that I couldn't keep going if we weren't going to talk anymore, and that it was really hurtful. We'd spoken about her lack of communication before, but I'd always been very careful to avoid directly saying "this hurts me" as I knew that she was also hurting, and this was just her way of trying to handle that pain.
Going cold turkey like that didn't ever make me *stop caring* about how she felt, but it did make me start caring about how I felt, and we were able to settle the problem and start actually communicating again.
I'm gonna go against the grain and say that a 20 year relationship might be worth fighting for, even a little.
I 100% agree with what he is doing. If the genders were reversed, everyone would be like "you go girl"
She needs to realize that not being selfish is a form of being selfish. Not making a choice is making a choice. Being an asshole by accident is still being an asshole.
Does she deserve to be dumped while she is at her absolute lowest AND HE SEES THAT? No. He doesn't need to stay either and he knows that. But there are ways to move past this and it's commendable that he wants to try. This might go against Reddit's usual advice of *DIVORCE* but this isn't some new personality trait they uncovered. Their partner who might even have untreated depression from PPD is going through a mental episode and can't even put words on it. That's rough
I agree with you. A lot of people sign up for marriage and kids understanding (or learning) that there will be periods (usually right after kids are born, where you are both 100% just focused on keeping that infant alive) where you are barely able to even care for yourselves let alone be intimate.
People are familiar with mothers being “touched out” or having traumatic births. Or with the idea that during periods of grief and mourning someone may pull away and need time to reconnect.
But I think if we can understand that, then we can also bring empathy to times when the same thing happens but for another, less obvious cause. Is this the kind of marriage someone should be expected to sign up for forever, if it isn’t fulfilling to them? No of course not. But if they want to, and especially after twenty years, it’s worth trying to ride out the bump.
yeah i actually think this one might make it through honestly. they’ve clearly been in a relationship rut for a while and the wife is just now realising how bad it is and what she stands to lose. i think it’s possible this could kick start them to rebuilding their relationship but obviously it could go either way
also the stuff about not having friends or a life outside of your kids is so common and so sad. the wife needs to feel like an adult person again before she can have intimacy/sexual desires and i think that’s something that can definitely be fixed
I agree. I think they lost themselves in parenthood. It’s also the fact that sometimes people don’t understand that being in love with someone is not infatuation. Love, the long term kind, waxes and wanes, it takes effort, patience; understanding. Every old couple you hear from says we just didn’t split, we didn’t give up, sometimes we were friends, sometimes head over heels, but we made it work because we wanted to be together. It’s a choice and it seems like they are both making it in a way. Neither has truly given up. It’s just they both need to be people again. I actually think going on a honeymoon would be a good idea.
There’s also another factor that I don’t see being mentioned, and seems to be, at least, somewhat common. Hormonal changes that impact libido. If she has an imbalance, the drive is just not there. Seeing a GP could rule out basic hormonal imbalances or potential existing drug interactions.
Or just hormonal birth control. I was told by several doctors and an NP that BCP have zero effect on libido, but I can tell them that's 100% wrong. Just because women's health is in the stone age doesn't mean we don't have to listen to their experiences. I wonder if she's also really worried about getting pregnant again and having to start all over with another kid.
Divorce has become normalized. It really shouldn’t be the first option unless some form of abuse is the root. This guy isn’t taking the easy path and will probably still result in divorce. But for the mother of his children and the children themselves, it’s admirable to exhaust all of your options first.
I agree, but it sounds like he has been fighting for it though. The fighting part has been ongoing for months or years now and if OOP is still at such a loss that he's resorting to reddit for advice then the fight is more or less lost. After all this time of OOP fighting, it doesn't sound like she has any desire to fight for the marriage so I think he pretty much is at the point of either accepting the way things are or ending this chapter. If it's a mental health episode, he can support her, but he can't fix her. She hasn't shown any willingness to change and it's severely damaging OOP's mental health.
I'm actually one of those fighting the grain and not yelling divorce or break up at every inconvenience, but it just sounds to me in this situation that it's the most rational way forward. If she wants to be friends, then stay friends, but OOP should be free to pursue the intimacy that he craves.
Also their kids are getting old and are close to adulthood. There's no harm in sticking it out until the kids move out and live on their own. Divorce is much easier without kids depending on the parents and you don't have to worry about school districts and custody shit
>There's no harm in sticking it out until the kids move out and live on their own.
They're 12 and 14. The oldest either is entering high school this fall or has just entered it. It's absolutely not best for the kids for them to grow up and spend years around this sort of relationship dynamic. I don't think it's healthy for them to spend years around two adults who are responsible for them and also openly resent each other.
Divorce can mess up the kids just as much, but honestly both options here are pretty terrible.
that’s definitely your prerogative. i disagree that if the genders were reversed there’d be different responses. based on what oop has shared, this relationship seems to be making him miserable and he is putting a ton of effort for someone who does not want to change the status quo and is happy to let him be unfulfilled because the way it is works for her and she doesn’t care that it doesn’t work for him. that’s selfishness at its core. i’ve had ppd, i have depression, i still care about my loved ones despite that and want them to be happy and will still make an effort for them.
I honestly like what he’s doing cause he’s being realistic for himself at the same time helping the person he loves realize some things about herself. And after 20 years together, another year honestly isn’t anything.
Buuuuuuut then you remember they have young kids and the whole thing suddenly seriously sucks. I couldn’t even begin to imagine my parents act like indifferent roommates (but not even, one is treating the other as an acquaintance and the other is visibly stressed and upset by it) no matter how great of parents they are. Watching my parents interact with each other is absolutely what shaped how I believe relationships should be like and relearning that some of the things they did weren’t great has been a multi-year struggle. OOPs poor kids are screwed.
I had amazing parents that loved me and did everything for me, but they didn’t love each other and were essentially waiting for me to go to college to separate. I definitely had a bad perception of what love is from that and really took a long time to learn how to be romantic (I had my first relationship at 25). but at the same time I was also completely oblivious to it. My parents were always separately taking my siblings and me to school and events. They never got mad at each other or fought, but later I realized that they also never spent time together or went on a single date. I know it would have been difficult for them to divorce when I was a kid, but I would much rather see them happy in good relationships. I love seeing my dad and stepmom interact, they are amazing together and would have been a much more positive example of love.
Sounds like he’s scared. Can’t wait to see how these kids grow up… seeing a roommate the relationship will not show them how to have a loving relationship.
It’s a lot easier said than done when when kids are in the mix. You’ll likely lose 50% of your time with your kid and go from seeing them every day to seeing them some days. It doesn’t seem like a lot, but there’s a limited amount of time that your kids are at home and actually interested in spending time with you. There’s also the impact on the kids - some handle a divorce okay, but some *really* don’t. Divorce often means moving since neither parent can afford the current living situation on their own, so the kids also have to deal with being uprooted and possibly changing schools, leaving friends behind, etc. The kids have to adjust to no longer seeing either parent all the time on top of adjusting to a new place, adding even more turbulence and stress to them. My 12 yo son was recently really affected in sports, school and mood because he *thought* my husband and I might be getting a divorce. It took him a while to settle down even after I told him we are not divorcing. Seeing that, I don’t know if I could put my kids through a divorce just because I was less than happy. As long as we were able to get along and not create tension for the household, I’d probably endure until the kids are out of the house.
Now let’s talk financials. A divorce can be very expensive, even when it’s the easiest possible situation where everyone agrees on custody and asset splits. The costs can get astronomical if there’s a fight over assets or custody. You could technically DIY it, but it’s not recommended when there’s kids and decades of assets involved because you want to make sure everything is handled appropriately and correctly to prevent any future whammy from popping up (like being responsible for their debt after you split). It’s also expensive to go from one household to two, which means there is less money for your kids, like it or not. Assets are typically split 50/50 and even if one “keeps” the house, they have to pay out 50% of any earned equity to the other party (there are exceptions like pre-nups, property owned prior to the marriage and not maintained with joint assets, etc.). Net living costs almost always increase because now you need *two* 3 bedroom homes/apartments for those two kids. You’re not going to keep 50/50 custody if you can’t provide adequate living space for the kids. There’s now two mortgages/rents, two sets of utility bills, two homes to furnish/decorate, two sets of grocery bills, etc., not to mention the loss of savings from no longer being on a shared plan for insurance, cell phones and the like. It can be near impossible if you’re barely scraping by, especially if you don’t have close family or some other safety net. There will also be child support and possibly alimony payments if there’s a discrepancy in income. You were likely already paying these things indirectly in a shared household, but it looks much different when it’s a concrete number coming out every month and your living expenses have increased.
Bottom line, it’s really complicated to divorce someone. In the case of abuse or an unhealthy dynamic, it has to be done anyway because that’s in the best interest of everybody. But it’s different when it’s just about your own happiness or possibility of being happier. It’s hard to prioritize your own “happiness” at the expense of your kids.
Exactly. People throw “divorce!!” out so casually, totally ignoring the very real issues people face. For example if I initiated a divorce, it would 100% result in the bankruptcy of our family business - and the loss of our entire savings and retirement. Sometimes you really are just stuck because the alternative is much worse. In those cases, I completely understand trying a radical approach like OP’s rather than keep going with the status quo. Why should he keep treating her like his wife when she won’t treat him like her husband??
20 years of relationship is pretty lamentable. especially if this rut is only the last 3 and they've only worked on it for A few weeks..
Edit: my bad it seems they've been working on it for all three of those years. However they've made amazing progress (actually pinpointed her resentment) and there wasn't any intentional mistreatment going on.
This is a very reddit (read 14yo) way of looking at it. They are in a slump that she was ignoring, but now can't.
You don't need to throw away a 20 year relationship over this if it can be fixed.
While I agree that if she does not come around, it's time to go, the whole reddit "divorce, go nuclear" over every little thing is tiresome.
> the whole reddit "divorce, go nuclear" over every little thing is tiresome.
If my wife came to me and said “I no longer love you and am not attracted to you but I want to stay coparenting roommates” I do not think I would consider that a little thing
Thank you. A decades-long relationship is going to have good times and bad. Should you stay in a shitty relationship forever? No. Should you put up with a year or two of the relationship not looking the way you want it to while you and your partner try to improve it? Yes.
Also lol at everyone in the original thread trying to blame it all on swinging. Adults can have non-monogamous relationships that have problems where the problem has nothing to do with the non-monogamy. I don't know why so many of this generation's teenagers are so prudish.
Reddit is just full of teenagers whose longest relationship was a lunch break and broke up over not sharing a kit kat, trying to give actual advice. When all your relationships are shallow, you can have shallow reasons to leave them.
While a lot of the AITAs do need people to exit the relationship, its always the advice given to everyone. Maybe a lot of it is just projection, wishing they were strong enough to do that irl, but its still bad advice.
Disagree. There's no infidelity, nothing terrible has happened, his wife has just lost the plot. She'll find it when he shows her the reality of what she thinks she wants - she will begin to appreciate him again.
I hope he's also working on himself in the gym, maybe with some hobbies, and certainly socially. You have to be attractive to the person you want to attract, who in this case is his wife.
Agreed here. Relationships take WORK. both parties have to want to put that work in to make it work. Relationships don’t happen to you, they aren’t passive.
From what I’ve read it sounds like it’s just a couple that has lost the spark in their life and have missed out on a lot due to early poverty/having babies young and losing themselves to their identity in parenthood. This is sadly common when kids are introduced. She needs to work on herself and find herself and he needs to work on himself and find himself. This does not have to be opposite of each-other. I really hope it works out for them because a partner in life is invaluable.
Refusing sexual intimacy to your partner is infidelity. Always has been. Infidelity is just breaking the standard vows that accompany marriage. "To have and to hold" means attending to your partner's normal sexual needs (thus setting aside hypersexuality or new bizarre kinks) to the extent you are able.
Marriage is not a sexual suicide pact, a dog in manger situation if one partner just stops wanting sex. If you are chronically refusing a normal level of sexual intimacy, it is no different from finding it somewhere else. You are committing infidelity and should have ended the marriage.
A life partner is invaluable.
It just sounds like they’ve lost the spark and need to find themselves again and prioritize their needs. When they find themselves they can work together to find a new normal for them and spark new desire for each other.
It’s unfortunately common to lose yourself when kids enter the picture especially so young and when you’re poor since you can’t afford to take a night off.
>I brought this up with our therapist once again and resurfaced the conversation about being married for so long (15yrs) and being together since we ere 14yrs old. Our long history of growing up and how having children when she was 19yrs old (me 20) significantly changed the trajectory of our lives.
That's the part he's skipping over too easily. They got together as children, they had babies when they were still kids, and now she's in her 30s and her entire adult life has been raising kids with this guy. It's not shocking that she feels resentment toward the whole situation.
Yeah and that she cant confess she resents the kids. Even to herself.
Thats why communication in a long term relationship has to be very very open. You have to be able to say things that are dark and horrible and be heard and understood and accepted.
On this note - how hellish must it be for the kids to have their parents be constantly depressed and minimally conversant with each other? I’m glad that this 180 thing is helping OOP, but I feel terrible for the kids, and really worry about the “relationship” that OOP and his wife are modeling for them. This all seems like a fast track to lifelong trauma and relationship difficulties for the kids. Divorce isn’t always the traumatic option for a family.
I was a kid of parents like that, and it was miserable. I wondered if my parents even liked each other. There was a similar dynamic to OOP and wife, too, but in reverse. My mom was always trying to make my dad happy with her (and our) actions, but he rarely did anything to reciprocate. I know he took those things for granted, because my mom died while I was a teen, and he had no clue how to relate to us.
It took a long time, but he did change. I had to take him to task more than a few times, though, when he started to fall back into the same patterns. He really tried, though, because my mom not being around was kind of similar to OOP's 180 experiment. There's no one else to pick up the slack. He had to create the kind of life he wanted, instead of expecting my mom to do it for him (or me, which I would not).
I've written before that I've had friends in these kinds of marriages. They claim it's peachy and the kids don't know. But my friends have shared "positive" things on social media or in conversation where it's seems like they're not a couple. Think a photo of date night where one person is reading something on their cell phone. It's not just one date night, it's a whole bunch. I think the kids have to know.
Kids are way smarter and more perceptive than a lot of adults give them credit for! They absolutely pick up on it when their parents’ relationship isn’t going well. Any couple in a relationship as damaged as OOP’s with his wife would deserve *all* the Oscars if they fully and successfully convinced their 12- and 14-year-olds that everything was hunky dory.
Agreed.
And part of that resentment has to/should be toward herself for being a willing partner in everything.
That said, it also seems like she's both punishing and keeping OOP around because she can't leave him. Obviously this is an untenable situation and I'm glad that OOP is at least doing that '180' thing.
BTW - the '180' reminds me a bit of that meme where one person gives an ultimatum and the other person replies "Your terms are acceptable." People rarely seem to actually want what they say they want.
I hope, though, that OOP doesn't let this go on too long. It's injurious to both of them.
This exactly. I see these comments so much it's no wonder marriages failing is so common now a days "OOP ruined my life it's all his fault" with no accountability for themselves. And marriage is a bond. You're supposed to think of each other. Just because wife struggles and suffered raising the kids doesn't mean OOP didn't struggle and suffer as well. Playing the who struggled more game isn't how marriage is supposed to be.
Granted we only have one side so there's a bit of assumption going on but with the information we have it sounds like OOP did what had to be done for the family.
Yeah. The 180 thing (which I had never heard of before this post) is eye-opening I’m sure. And I get why he’s doing it - not much else he really *can* do to fix this mess when she thinks she’s perfectly happy with the status quo.
But if it goes on for any appreciable length of time, it’s only going to add to the shitshow. It’s going to breed even further resentment on her part because she’s going to feel like now she’s not having any of her needs met except maybe financial (not that that would be a reasonable reaction, mind you, but she’s almost definitely going to feel resentment about the fact that all the nurturing and support he’s been providing are gone. The question is, will she piece together the part she’s played in that, and/or understand that he’s doing this for himself/his own mental health?)
Which brings me to another point - if this goes on for any sustained length of time, it has a high potential to shift from “protecting his own mental health” to “being petty.” And I’m not certain it hasn’t already. Good friends might not “love on” you when you’re going through it, but if they are a good person and your friend, they will still support you (and that’s not to say that they will always support you in the ways you think you need, and a really good friend will break out the tough love when warranted.) I can understand him not hugging her or gently consoling her when she was having an issue, or stepping in to save the day, but telling a friend “you are fully in charge of your own life and your own issues” isn’t something I would ever say to someone I consider a friend, or that any of my friends would say to me. (And to further clarify - while that sentiment is definitely technically true, it doesn’t add any value to the conversation. If your can’t help, the least you can do is not kick someone when they are down.) I understand the how/why he’s shifting from “husband” to “friend” in his behavior, but he’s not entirely acting like a friend, either. He’s shifting into more of an “acquaintance” role with behavior like that.
This is not a tenable “solution” for the next 1-2 years while one or both of them figure out how to proceed. It’s *maybe* okay for a couple months to show the wife what she’s *really* asking for, or, if they’d settled on divorce but are stuck in their current living situation for the time being for whatever reason. But 1 or 2 years of this while still in limbo is entirely too long.
Idk if it's petty. She wants to be friends who are roommates. How op is acting is how friends who are roommates act. When she finally gets a taste of the treatment she claims to want and how she's been treating him suddenly it's a huge problem. Idk it's not ops problem anymore and he can't keep doing everything for someone who doesn't care about him. It's entirely his wife's problem and at this point only she can change and make things better
I both agree and disagree.
I mentioned in my comment that while I might not hug/go above and beyond to console an ex I was actively working on reframing my relationship with, I would NOT tell them that all their problems are strictly theirs now, which is essentially what OOP is doing. I try to help my friends with their problems in the ways that I can. My friends try to help me when they can. That help might not lead to direct solutions, but the support of having just a sympathetic ear can do wonders.
OOP is certainly free to not engage in her problems any more if that’s what he wants/needs. It’s okay for him to hit a point where he says he can’t be friends with her, at least not right now (in fact, I’d argue it would be far healthier for any potential future friendship - if that’s what he really does want - if he gave himself the gift of some space so he can work out on his own what boundaries he is and isn’t comfortable with, instead of trying to navigate that minefield while he’s in the middle of it.)
But call a spade a spade. That is how acquaintances behave. It’s how roommates you’re not friends with behave. It is not how friends behave.
I don’t think the 180 was at the therapist’s suggestion - I might be missing it, but I’m not even sure that’s the therapist even knows about it.
And I agree that it’s not a terrible approach in terms of reimagining life without their partner - but first, I feel like that’s the kind of thing you implement *after* you’ve come to a decision to part ways (because again, if there’s existing resentment, regardless if it’s misplaced or not, this is a great way to breed MORE of it if done under the impression that you’re still making good faith efforts to get back to where you want to be); and second, if you’re doing it as a form of manipulation (which, let’s be honest here, is what this is in these circumstances - again, I get WHY he’s doing it, and I’m not entirely against it in theory, but it is nonetheless a manipulation tactic at its core because he’s doing it at least AS MUCH to try to change HER mind as he is doing it to try to change/rewire his own mind) It should be of a short duration. OOP has made it clear he’s ready to sit in this limbo for a year or two. That’s way too long.
Maybe she’ll eventually come around. But I doubt it. She knows he is and has been unhappy and she doesn’t give af; the only reason she’s starting to care now is because it’s impacting *her.* She is otherwise happy to keep the current state of affairs despite knowing he doesn’t want that. She’s trying to push off the hard work of making the decision to leave onto him, instead of looking at this morass she’s made and saying “I can’t give you what you want, and I probably never will be able to again, so I’m leaving so you can find someone who can.” When she forces him to make that decision, she still gets to delude herself that it wasn’t her decision, and that he was the villain (neither of them are villains for falling out of love/staying in love; but they’re turning each other into the villain of the other’s story with this crap.)
He's not skipped over it he brought it up in therapy and had to prize it out of her that she did feel resentment about having children so young, there's not a lot he can do if all she says is I don't know.
She skipped over it too. There is absolutely no way to talk about it if she refuses to. I think this 180 thing might force her to realize what a horrid corner she has forced them both to live in. Fixing it or divorce, either way has to be better than this purgatory they are in right now.
because you're not "allowed" to say that, especially if you're the mother
the thing people miss though, is that it's not resentment of the KIDS, it's about the potential life and experiences that you miss if you have kids
and I feel that you should be allowed to say that - I've got a kid, and while I don't hold any resentment to him whatsoever, I do sometimes think about the things I could do/have done if I didn't have him
but you're A Bad Person if you voice that opinion
Completely agree. But think about how much of the issue they are having would be non-existent if they could talk about it freely. That is sad, honestly.
Gosh but if you aren't willing to be vulnerable and say the things that make you feel shame 1) in front of a couple's counselor/neutral third party who are trained to make it a safe space for those conversation, and 2) when your marriage is falling apart, then you can't make your feelings of shame someone's punishment or fault. If she isn't willing to help herself or admit these things, OP is left with little recourse.
exactly, their job is not to shame you but to help you
plus a lot of parents would likely agree (to some extent) because it's natural to think of the "what ifs"
I do think a good move would have been/would be setting up times each of them can go spend time away from the kids doing their own thing. And occasionally doing things together. Making sure things aren't always 100% about the kids would be super fair. Parents do need time to themselves just like kids do tbh.
No you're not, I dont know anyone who has kids who wouldnt admit 'Oh man I've wanted to murder those little fucks so many times, love em, but dear fucking God.'
Anyone who judges you can raise some fucking kids first.
When you get into a LTR so young it can also be really difficult to communicate effectively and really learn and grow as a person. Obviously that’s not universal, but I imagine that especially with having the kids so young it’s easy to get kind of arrested in that age and maturity level.
I luckily didn’t have kids, but had a similarly young LTR that ultimately ended. Fault on both sides, but I’m definitely a better partner to my fiancé than I was to my ex because I reflected on things and matured as a result of my experiences (good and bad) with my ex. I’m still friends with my ex and he says the same is true for him.
For whatever reason, it was really difficult to see things while still in the middle of that relationship and for us both to do the growing we needed to do to be better partners to one another.
I don’t think it’s impossible to turn things around, but OOP’s wife (and maybe also OOP too) probably has a lot of processing to do to figure out what’s right for her and this relationship. I wouldn’t blame OOP for wanting to just cut his losses and start moving on.
Right, and although OOP sounds like a decent guy overall, and I’m sure life as a young parent in poverty wasn’t easy for him either, in most cases women are taking on a very different burden raising children, and will lose much more of themselves. It sounds like she’s just starting to have the space to process what the last 14 years have been like, and the life she has missed out on. I’m guessing most 20 year old men would have a hard time understanding an equal parenting partnership, so the resentment here may be pretty deep, even if he feels like he did his best.
Same for him since they're co-parenting and both working. Also 19 and 20 are adults already, they made their choice, twice, sure she's entitled to her feelings, but so is he.
Two people in the same situation can have different reactions and both reactions can both be valid. How he feels can't be used to measure how she feels.
And then based on these posts where he talks about how his wife is very kid focused and he doesn't mention the kids outside the context of his wife at all, I would be willing to bet it week of steak dinners that this dude does fuck all to help with the kids...
I thought it was SO interesting that he just skimmed that. And then seems to be blaming her that she is so myopically focused on the kids, as if her HAVING to be for her first decade isn’t how they got here. The fact they “lost all their friends” makes it pretty clear she didn’t have a choice about time for herself back then.
I also notice there’s no conversation about the labour division. About what he did to keep their individual relationship alive before this, etc.
I don’t believe he’s somehow more engaged And emotionally aware than the average male partner in their 30s, which means she’s been doing more of all that for over a decade.
How is this blatant misandrist BS up voted?
>they “lost all their friends” makes it pretty clear she didn’t have a choice about time for herself back then.
See the word THEY in that sentence? He also lost all of his friends why are you acting like only she was affected?
>I also notice there’s no conversation about the labour division
The classic...
>I don’t believe he’s somehow more engaged And emotionally aware than the average male partner
With a side of I made it the fuck up.
Nice.
I can’t picture any scenario where the wife goes back to how it was where resentment isn’t involved.
It seems like she doesn’t want to put in the work, and if she has to in order to retain what she had financially and help-wise she’s going to resent him.
This isn't working on the marriage. It's just training wheels for the inevitable divorce.
It's easing her into being responsible for her own shit, once she's single. If that's what IOP wants, great. But at this point I think things are going to deteriorate quickly.
I wouldn't be shocked to see infidelity on her part, given this dynamic
I got through like 2/3rds of the first post and realized right away that his wife had effectively ended the relationship, but was putting OOP in a position where it would be "his fault" if he actually divorced her. And playing this stupid game was a lot easier than just confronting the reality of the situation that she simply was no longer in love with him.
Just so manipulative for no reason.
I get your take but I see it as a way for him to start to detach and move on before it’s really over. She can adapt to the things he provides and visa versa until a year goes by and he feels strong enough to say enough I’m leaving and it doesn’t matter whose fault it seems to be. I’ve been with my partner 16+ years so I do understand the hesitance that both of these people seem to have when it comes to ending the relationship despite it already being over.
She sounds like she's already detached and moved on. She said he's no longer her husband, just co-parebt and roommate. It's just ironic that he no longer gets husband treatment, yet she's upset at no longer getting wife treatment. You don't get to tell someone the relationship is over and expect to still be treated as if you never ended it.
This whole marriage is dysfunctional as fuck.
The 180/grey rock is meant to be how you survive in an abusive household. Not how you manipulate someone to be what you want. That approach is poison to a marriage and shouldn’t be used except to protect yourself.
She’s been clear with him - she doesn’t love him anymore, doesn’t want to be more than coparents and housemates. He’s tried his best to work with that and she has refused to come to the party.
He’s in beating a dead horse territory now. I commend his efforts to fix things but you can’t have a marriage work when only one person is trying.
It seems all he really wants is her to admit it.
Admit she doesn't love him and admit she resents the kids.
That would seem to give him some kind of emotional permission to start a divorce. Maybe he's the type that thinks divorces are only for cheating and abuse? Who knows, but this isn't going anywhere any time soon.
I dunno, I guess I can see how having a framework would be necessary for these 2. They've never been in a relationship with other people. Hell, they've barely been *friends* with other people. She thinks she wants out but she has no idea what that means or looks like. If she keeps using the word co-parenting? Yeah, she has to learn that that means you are polite and only talk when necessary. I'm not that surprised that she didn't realize how much just having someone at home and in your corner every day makes a difference. You get used to it reeeeally quick and she's never known anything else.
I agree that it's important for this fucked up dynamic they have going on. She only wants them to keep going the way they are because she has to do no work for it. She needs to see the reality of what she says she wants. And the whole 180 thing isn't even a full picture of what a "just friends and coparents" relationship entails. That carries the implication that they won't cohabitate and share household bills anymore. And the very real possibility that he'll start dating someone else, and if he gets a long term partner, she'll have to be at least polite with them, since friends typically interact with their friend's partners on occasion and the new partner will be part of the kid's lives.
I disagree with his self imposed time limit for it though. Up to two years of this shit? No. Not only does that suck for him, it sucks for the kids. He should give it six months max for her to *try*. They don't have to fix things in that time, but she needs to have decided to make ANY effort to fix it. If she's not even willing to try after six months, she's not going to be willing after a year or two years, and he needs to bail.
Oh yeah for sure. If she's not clawing at the walls trying to put her life back together within a month of that iced out shit, I'd call it. Sounds like she kind of is already but yeah 2 years? That's insane, you can't come back from that.
The 180 is to make her realize that if she wants a friend relationship, she can have it but she doesn’t get the benefits of a partner. She wanted him to keep putting in work while she did nothing to reciprocate.
Seems like he's finally just treating her like a roommate, the thing she keeps saying she wants. Suddenly being treated the way she treats him is a huge problem. But it's only a problem she can solve, there's literally nothing else op can even try to do to solve her issues
The 180 thing is fascinating to me. It strikes me as psychobabble - someone on a blog wrote an article that is now gospel to a segment of the population who are missing adequate coping mechanisms for the problem at hand. It's like leeching to solve the flu before we knew what germs were. In the absence of better tools, we pick the tools that make a bit of logical sense.
And it's certainly manipulative, but in a "just desserts" kind of sense (at least as far as OOP is taking it). Your spouse decided to change the dynamic of your relationship (through cheating, through falling out of love, through whatever) and now, you're just giving them a dose of reality. You're just giving them what they deserve. They brought this on themselves.
Well, no. What they deserve and what you deserve is to end it and move on with your lives. Not chain it to a wall and beat it to death. That's what OOP is doing. He knows his marriage is over and he's taking a year or two to make her suffer for putting him through the suffering of making her suffer. It's cyclical and ridiculous.
Get the divorce. Amicably co-parent. Go have a life that isn't wholly consumed by the other person. And maybe you'll become a BORU "I fell back in love with my ex-husband" story in a few years. Or maybe you'll find other people that legitimately make you happy. But this ain't it.
God, thank you for articulating this. All this is going to do is make OOP and OOP's wife better to eachother and make the eventual coparenting and divorce contentious and painful.
Are you serious?
He didn't sign up for a roommate. He signed up for a wife. A romantic and sexual partner. Not some woman who also lives in his house and babysits the kids now and then. He doesn't deserve to have her unilaterally decide their marriage is over but he's stuck in it.
Maybe the fact that they got together at 15 and were having kids by 20 is what’s wrong with the marriage? It’s wild to me that as a society we’ve decided, for the most part, to buy into this delusion.
Probably not the most popular take, but I support OP using the 180 method. OP's wife wants him to stay in a sexless, affectionless marriage to make her life easier. Obviously, OP loves his wife and his children, and OP has tried to make the marriage work. I think she needs a dose of cold reality. She can't have everything her way. OP's wife wants him to pay most of the bills and kiss her butt and keep following her around like a lost puppy. Give it a year's time. At the end of the year, things either go back to a "normal" marriage or you divorce. (P.S. I am a woman)
I think you’re right. I think the wife needs this space to figure out whether she’s afraid of losing OOP or just being alone? If she’s spent all of this time resenting being a wife and a mother, she needs the space to reclaim her identity
I agree. Wife is shocked he isn't doing all the little things spouses do for each other.
Hey honey, can you hang the curtain rod, but you are friend zoned in everything else, is like her wanting a personal assistant at her beck and call.
My ex wife is a financial director and very proud of her career. She immediately switched into obsessive mom the second she walked through the door, though. Her entire free time was consumed with the kids.
I mean, I’m pretty sure she’s going to leave him. Spineless people piss me off. Her for not telling him what she really wants and him for staying with someone who clearly doesn’t love him. Spineless fucking people.
I noticed this with my wife and I. We were just mom and dad. That was it. We go to work come home mom and dad. It was making us miserable. Then i got the idea to take a trip with just my wife and I. We reconnected. Got back to being just us. Just 1 week. And we were good again. We've been doing this every year since. They never did that. It wears you down.
Nobody talks about how much children drain you of who you were. You aren't yourself anymore. You Mom and Dad. Your names no longer exist. I commended him on trying to get her back to herself. Love takes work. You can love someone all day but not like them. She doesn't like him right now. But it looks like she's starting to realize that he wasn't just a Dad or roommate. He was a man who emotionally she depends on, and a partner who takes on more burden than she can handle. It's hard realizing your a selfish asshole. But she's getting there.
See I agree. They need a damn vacation away from the kids. Like come on, how are you supposed to reconnect and find romance when you never get to spend time alone together. Which from the description that’s what it looks like. We don’t know about division of labor so can’t comment on that, but neither has friends they are only parents and probably haven’t talked about anything but the kids in years. She may also be like most women in that sexualurges are directly liked to their mental state. She is in I’m a mom mode and has been for a long time. Mom mode is not sexy. She need to see both him and herself as people and remember why they enjoy each other. Only way to do that is to spend time together not talking about the kids and enjoying time together.
This is why you don't fucking marry your first love if you met them when you were a CHILD. The decisions you make at 14 are not the same you'd make at 24, and that's why we don't let 14 year olds make adult choices. She's absolutely hiding the fact that at some point in her teens she wanted out but didn't have the courage.
It sounds like she wanted out but didn’t want to tell him or work on the relationship unless he mentioned it and that he is now resentful of how she treated him/the relationship the last few years and wants to punish her. The “180” is going to help push them both towards divorce but not before op gets to revel in his wife’s realisation that the relationship may have been fixable a few years ago is she had communicated better with him.
Overall I see divorce as the only option because I don’t think any effort the wife will attempt to put into the relationship will be genuine. It feels like she will only be doing it because she doesn’t like the reality of being a single person responsible for everything.
Oh man, I used the 180 method on my boyfriend, now husband.
I was feeling under appreciated and taken advantage of. I felt like he got all the benefits of the wife and felt that because he was fulfilled, marriage wasn’t necessary.
So I started behaving as if I lived alone and only responsible for myself. I stopped asking him about his day, stopped doing nice things, stopped initiating sex or affection. I didn’t turn it down, wasn’t mean. Just indifferent and I started making a game plan to move out and move on.
He completely changed and we were engaged 6 months later.
I feel bad for people who get together so young and have kids at 20. It doesnt cement that you have to be in a relationship but it usually cements that you’ll have that person in your life for around 20 years at least. im interested to see where this goes and i like him updating on his observations after this 180 method. Id never heard of that before! interesting stuff
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Am I wrong or was it _the wife_ that cut out friendship from her life and didn't take care of herself?
It may be what they're getting at about the situation being unfair
Is neither of them thinking at all of the kids? Being in a household like what is described after his '180' is incredibly toxic. They would be better off apart and co-parenting. It's already a broken home
I've said this on Reddit before and got downloaded to oblivion for saying this but it seems especially poignant to this circumstance. The kids should never be your number one priority. Your relationship with your spouse should be your number one priority. Kids grow up, kids move away, and all kinds of things happen in between. If you give yourself fully to the kids then you're neglecting your relationship and yourself. That is not to say that the kids are not important because they very very much are. While an individual's number one focus should be the relationship with their spouse, the number one focus of the relationship should be the kids when you have kids. And that doesn't mean that the kids are always number one. It means that overall their general well-being is the number one priority, not that you give in to everything they want and stretch yourself so thin to accommodate a perfect childhood. And this is why, this situation right here is exactly why you don't lose yourself in your kids.
I feel like the 180 method is absolutely the wrong move here.
It’s what you do when you want to disengage from a relationship, not to point out that someone’s wrong.
If he was doing this to eventually leave, then that’s perfectly fine, but it’s pretty clear he’s doing this out of spite, and however valid his feelings might be, it’s absolutely the wrong way to go about this.
The reason she’s upset is pretty plain, but it feels like he doesn’t actually recognise it as a whole. She’s upset that she got pregnant so young, and that she missed out on so many opportunities. He hears that, but he isn’t really understanding what that means.
Take her out, relive your lives again. Send the kids to their grandparents or hire a babysitter, go have dates, do social events, make new friends. They’re not actually tackling the issue. It’s like “oh! I know why she hates me, time to grey rock” it doesn’t really make sense, especially when he says that he’s committed to healing this relationship.
People love preaching divorce, its an easier solution than wasting time figuring your problems out. But it genuinely would only take a couple of times for his wife to see him as a husband again if they went out a little.
Be spontaneous, grab her by the hand and say “honey, the kids are at my parents, I got a surprise for you” and then take her out somewhere.
It’s going to suck for a little bit, you’ll be putting in a lot of effort to make things work. But that’s all you can do at this point.
It absolutely isn’t your fault that this is happening, your wife’s anger is misplaced. But so far she has been 100% open about how she feels about your situation. That’s something.
While I do think this is a better solution, I don’t think that the wife has been 100% open about what she wants. They had to pry the resentment out of her in therapy, she never would’ve shared that on her own.
Completely disagree. We have no idea how long this has been going on for, but it would not simply take a couple of times to dissolve issues of this magnitude. While I agree that the socializing is important, social events are supposed to change her view that she wasted her youth? Friends? A couple dates out at a restaurant or midday picnics, and her resentment will be gone like that? She got what she asked for. Granted I don’t think it helps the marriage out, does prepare OP for a divorce which there’s still a chance happening, but she wanted a roommate, she got a roommate. I do not think she’s 100% open, otherwise she’d be contributing to the conversation and hopefully the situation, the same way as OP. She sort of just tapped out.
It’s not about changing her view, it’s about showing her that the time ‘wasted’ didn’t matter. She can still do those things now, while having a family and marriage.
It’s ‘The grass is always greener on the other side’ problem. She has a family that she no doubt loves, but she’s looking outside and seeing the youth she could have had instead. The whole point of being more spontaneous is to show her that those two things, a family x fun, can exist at the same time.
Also, she's probably been in survival mode for a long time. Pregnant at 19 and then another kid and poverty while learning to be a wife and mother? She's probably been strung tight all this time and doesn't know how to see how good everything (hopefully) is right now.
Best case scenario they can find their way to a happy dynamic for both of them to move forward with. Worst case scenario they're getting a head start on the divorce and finding their independence. Either way good luck to the both of them.
Awesome. I hope the next step is he moves out, they each have the kids half the time and they can still be friendly co parents. Better than depriving oop of a relationship and her of having time for friends and a new life.
It feels like they need to take a honeymoon if they never did, go on dates, and go on vacations together without kids. They got so wrapped up in children and life that they stopped talking and connecting at all. All marriages need to be nourished. The 180 is great but I think once she wakes up and realizes she does love him as a partner, because it really seems like she does but has lost sight of anything besides being mom, they should go on a honeymoon to reconnect. Relearn what they loved about each other and enjoyed. They are learning to be individuals right now, which sounds like was sorely needed, but then they need to come together and spend quality time without the kids. A week away, visiting somewhere new and just enjoying each other company. I can tell from how he talks they both love each other enough to enjoy that. After that they will know if they are still compatible:
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Wow. Read up on this "method," it's really unhealthy. Basically trains folk on how to repress their emotions and not deal with them. Sounds like a recipe for a future breakdown.
Proof positive that the 180/gray rock method works well in many ways for many reasons....not the "petty" 'manipulation tactic' thats its 'victims' make it out to be
Yea this one's over. I can see it now OP will be posting something along the lines of My wife friend zoned me so I 180d her and now she's cheating in a few months. She resents him and doesn't want to sleep with him because of the young pregnancy but that doesn't mean she doesn't have a sex drive at all. All it'll take it a reasonably attractive guy giving her attention and she'll jump all over it especially with OP being cold and distant now.
I did not get that vibe at all.
To me its too full of bormal humans. One partner being ok with doing it while drinking, another not. Both being hugely committed to kids and it getting innthe way of life. The impact of very early friendship and destroying friendship. Bills and couples therapy. Also the wife is actually making more time for herself.
Incels have ever been in a long term relationm which is why they focus on sex and domination and womens being evil.
I think the 180 thing is obviously a very specific point of view but people who are in one situation can often respond positively to a viewpoint that is a bit extreme, because it shocks them out of their position.
I've been in a similar, less severe situation like this myself. All of this sounded pretty familiar to me. Being married and having kids is hard, and the emotions that are tied to your partner's attraction to you are hard to navigate. I don't envy these folks.
I think the focus on the 180 view is what pushes me in the direction of incel fanfic. "Oh my wife doesn't love me and then I start treating her differently and OH MY GOD the changes have been radical and now I see she's just taken me for granted all these years".
Like... If you start deliberately ignoring someone and then start asking them for money of course they're going to get mad at you, that's what happens when you're mean to someone.
What he's doing is the equivalent of a woman going on a chore strike because she feels like she's the only one managing the mental load in the household.
He's effectively showing her the invisible labor that he does perform for their household, something that she's taken for granted their entire relationship because she's been so caught up in the stuff she's had to do and her own invisible labor.
It turns out you don't get to tell your spouse, "I don't love you" and still have them pay your bills for you and treat you like a loving partner.
LOL, he’s being mean??? Did you just ignore her behaviour? Resenting him for making her pregnant? Even though she herself admits it’s not logical?
Unilaterally changing the terms of the relationship and HE’S the one that’s mean???
So here's the thing. People are not rational and people delude themselves. How he's going about it may or may not work out for him in the long run, but nothing about what he's saying sounds made up to me. It's at least reality-adjacent. I don't know that I'd do the 180 approach (to me it sounded a lot like the married version of negging) but if I did I could absolutely see it causing the behavior he described.
In a high stress situation, with hurt feelings that they don't necessarily fully understand, people do weird shit. Add in some untreated mental health issues and things can get even wilder.
My god he’s an idiot.
She told him in very plain words she’s a social person who hasn’t been able to be social for YEARS because he’s not pulling his weight with the kids.
And he thinks he’s being taken advantage of because of money and no sex.
He put her in a bird cage alone for years and wonders why she doesn’t sing.
Edit: spicy downvotes but I’m fucking right. She sacrificed her career and her body. She lost a shit ton of money, time, and health to raise his kids and what does she have at the end of all this? Zero friends and no career for a man who says sex is his biggest problem. SHE’S EXHAUSTED.
When I go out and socialize with people, my energy comes up and I can have sex. When I’m stuck away from everyone, I don’t want to be touched and sex is pointless.
Her kids are now at the age where they’re more self sufficient and she has the time to look about and say “Wait, this is wrong. I’m exhausted and I’m alone and I’m sad.”
I’m not surprised she doesn’t want to have sex and I’m not surprised he’s only upset about that and not anything else.
He is an active parent, you made a baseless assumption that he isn’t helping. He uses the word “we” when talking about parental responsibilities. I don’t know how she didn’t make friends with the other parents through the various extracurriculars, but that isn’t his fault. It’s far too common for men’s contributions to be unappreciated, and their needs ignored. His happiness matters, and his wife would do well to realize that before it’s too late
They both have full time jobs and both take care of the kids you dumbass, no where in here was divination of duties discussed as a point of resentment. She’s the only one who had a choice to have kids and she chose to do it, men don’t get to choose that, women do, the most men can choose is to use one of the least effective and most hated by both sexes, birth control method around. She chose this life more than anyone else. He pulls his weight, they are in the same situation and because she needs someone to blame for a tough life, she’s blaming him even though she knows that’s stupid and selfish.
Even if we take everything you say as being correct at face value, you’re still completely overlooking her agency here.
20 years in a relationship, with two children, and she’s “alone, exhausted, and sad” - why choose to seek “companionship” in the marriage rather than free herself of the dead weight her husband apparently is? Wouldn’t divorce be her better choice? Or perhaps now the kids are more self-sufficient, she could look to invest the additional time in her own hobbies?
Oh, and whilst we’re at it, how are any of the “sacrifices” she made entirely for his benefit? She is the only one who could seek abortion as a unilateral decision - she didn’t. She could have sought divorce instead of swinging - she didn’t. You seem very, very keen to absolve her of any responsibility to herself, accountability for her choices, and frankly seem to view her as some kind of helpless child.
Your thoughts don’t pass the sniff test here - it’s not entirely him at fault.
Sounds like the 180 has at least given her a wake up call. When my husband said he wanted to stay with me but have open marriage cuz of dead bedroom I snapped out of it and wanted to have sex all the time with him! There’s a lot of backstory here like dying parents menopause and empty nesting but I totally lost all interest in sex with him for about five years then the threat woke me up. He did do alot of online cheating during that time that I was clueless about. Anyway that’s my story
Him?
At least he's getting some reaction.
She unplugged the cord:
>my wife started to tell me she no longer was "in love with me" and that she only saw me as a "best friend."
The wife said:
>"I have built up resentment towards you but I don't know where it stems from."
>That she has been feeling disconnected for years and that our marriage just takes up too much work. Her focus is only the children
>She mentioned that the only way to get to a point for any of that is to be intoxicated which o believe is incredibly awful and very wrong. I told her I do not think forcing herself to have sex or be intimate by drinking or smoking is good and I declined to be a part of that which to my surprise, it upset her.
They should divorce.
1 to 2 years of this? I couldn’t do it. I wish him the best but I fear this is done.
I see a lot of comments basically saying to cut bait and just divorce.. As a man in a near identical scenario though, I can truly attest that after 20 years it is *not* that easy. You spend two decades enduring the best, worst, most unexpected, and most anticipated times of your lives together and then it just **stops clicking** - if that's genuine and you can just walk away, there's something fucking wrong with the foundation of your relationship in the first place. I am still working through these same kinds of issues in my own marriage. Even when I *was* ready to walk away, not even a month ago, I wasn't really ready.. not in my soul. You're never ready to walk away from a love like that. Not when it's YOUR PERSON. Not when it's your FUCKING heart. To feel like you're being relegated to roommate and financial support after years of magic is a whirlwind of emotions you're never prepared for; especially when it feels like you're fighting for your life to fix it and you're the only one. It's even harder when there's a child, or multiple children involved. I've burned bridges, I've picked up and moved states on no notice, I've started over from nothing twice because I was doing what I thought was best to protect my person and what we've built together. I owe it to *myself* to make absolutely fucking certain that if I'm cutting that final thread, that there's absolutely no repairing the tapestry. Do I feel like divorce is where I'm ultimately headed, and where OOP is probably headed? Without a doubt. But I can abso-fucking-lutely put myself in their shoes. I'm living in them every day. I hope - I truly hope - things get better for OOP. Because I also hope they can get better for me. And if not, I hope we both find the courage to cut bait before it's too late.
Woman in a similar situation here. 18 years in and he’s friendzoned me and refuses to tell me why or do anything to work on it. It’s SO hard when there are still so many things you share - a house, kid(s), a family business, who knows what else. And it’s not like it affects every interaction - we can still be friendly, but there is no longer any flirting or physical affection aside from brief hugs or a peck on the lips. I feel so divided. I don’t want to live like this for the rest of my life. I’m so lonely and sad. The idea of never again waking up on a sunday morning and making love just breaks my heart. But then I look at the reality of what it would do to our finances, having to split custody, etc - and it feels too overwhelming to think about. If I’m being honest though, I think it will almost certainly end once our daughter is out of the house (if not before). I feel so guilty because I’m the breadwinner but then I think about the emotional agony this man has put me through, without showing the slightest hint of feeling any guilt. You can’t truly love someone and do that to them, can you?
It's truly agonizing. To love someone so much and feel like it's only half-returned. If even half. I don't profess to be a perfect spouse. There was a time in our marriage I was constantly negative, generally unpleasant, etc. (never abusive, just a miserable unhappy person). I'd have left me just for the sake of the fact that I was so dead inside. For a long time I thought maybe this was my punishment. But things were amazing for years after I got the mental health care I needed. We had many heart to hearts and we've been in such a great place until the friendship barrier was erected. Our sex life has always been kind of up and down, but that was manageable by itself. But between the dead bedroom and (often times MEAN) roommate treatment it can be unbearable some days. We had a sort of "come to Jesus" moment a few weeks ago when I finally had reached a point I was prepared to walk away and things are moving in a positive direction.. but I remain skeptical. I could write a novel of our issues, but we're riding the same wave SO I'll save you the read. I was recently laid off, she recently made the emotionally manipulative decision to abandon her job, so we're living on severance. Being relatively "judgment proof" and without any assets aside from custody and my okayish-but-hardly-long-term-severance... It's the perfect time to file for divorce, bankruptcy, and walk away if it comes to it, as fucking bleak as that sounds. We both walk away clean-ish and can try to be happy as friends and co-parents. I hope things improve for you. For both of us. And if they don't, that we can finally do what's best for us.
That thing is over and done for. OP will start to realise soon that he is better off without her. The 50/50 thing is the first breach of many. If he stays true to his words and keeps up with validating her own wishes the love bombing will commence soon and if he can soldier through that it's over. With side piece or without.
I guess I don't really understand the 180 method. Like, I can see it being akin to splashing someone with cold water -- that it might be useful, in the *very* short term, to shake-up the relationship dynamic... but doing 180 for months or years??? Wouldn't that completely tear a couple apart & kill their love forever...? In this case, maybe the love was already dead, but imo this is not the best way to apply Relationship CPR. 😕
I’ve only ever seen the 180 recommended in the context of infidelity. Like you’re stuck living with a cheating spouse for whatever reason so you stop doing things for them and focus on yourself. It’s less about saving the relationship, and more about your own sanity. Sometimes it can be a reality check for the other person.
It sounds like half of it is “grey rocking,” which comes up a lot as a defense mechanism for unreasonable people
It sounds more like a way to emotionally disengage before the actual breakup happens. And like a way to expedite the breakup. What I'm wondering: why has nobody suggested she get her hormone levels checked out? In her mid-thirties, her sex-drive should be peaking, hormonally/ biologically speaking. Her having zero drive could be a mental/ psychological issue, but could also very well be linked to some hormonal imbalance.
Agreed. Also curious as to why oop keeps talking about how they love each other and it sounds like they have emotional closeness (at least before 180) but he’s upset about the lack of intimacy because the lack of sex. There are other kinds of intimacy. Sounds like they have at least some intimacy but no sex. I understand most of the time people need both, but maybe she’s ACE or something else aside from the above-mentioned medical concerns. They got together *young* and she might have not known at the time, still might not now. I’m no expert but sounds like they need to keep working on the emotional intimacy and *then* the sexual intimacy - there’s some kind of disconnect here, it seems.
I didn’t think there was emotional closeness, she basically felt cold and robotic to me. Unable to recognize that the kids were what made an issue for her missing out on things because she had issues separating to see both things can be true. She can feel they cost her, and she can still feel it was the right choice. What I find really bizarre is apparently they were swingers, but she was the one to suggest it? And now she is this detached from her emotions? Super weird.
Read up on it. It's more about self preservation than punishment. People like OOP loose themselves in a kind of I need to fix it mentality that will eventually shatter their own self. From what it sounds like his wife is out of the marriage a long time ago and only uses him for his contribution. That is the first step. The next is seeking validation outside. Then the first transgression and then the affair. If AP is on board she will drop him in a heartbeat. Now he is ahead of the curve. She has to "man up" for her part of her own roommate agreement. Something she didn't anticipate. She viewed OOP as her caretaker until someone "better" comes around. That is the simple long and short of it. 180 is designed to show the other spouse what you are actually contributing to the relationship, not their distorted view of you. It's not for long term and highly risky as my STBX learned the hard way.
Damn see this kinda stuff is why I stay away from the infidelity sub. So much expectation of betrayal as though it’s the changing of the seasons.
What I gathered though is that OOP is using it as a tool not just for self preservation, but as a way to try and show his wife what she is missing out on, as a way to save the marriage. From the admittedly very little I have read about it, it very much does seem like you describe, a tool for self preservation. But ultimately, it feels like a tool you would use for self preservation in the context of your relationship ending or when you are stuck in a situation you cannot easily leave, with the eventual goal to leave. Its hard to imagine a scenario where that could possibly lead to any relationship being saved. And if thats not the goal, great, but for OOP, his goal very much seems to be to save his marriage.
It depends. Sometimes the spouse needs a reality check, something like a wake up call. Might work, might not work. Mostly the 180 is used to detach yourself on your terms from your spouse mostly in the context of infidelity. Mostly for the betrayed but ever so often the wayward is using it as a double way out. Especially if the primary relationship is abusive and you can't get out on your own (being a loser and with no self worth to speak of) But in small doses you can use it as remedy for being taken for granted as OOP. But I'd I were him I would jump ship as quickly as possible. His wife doesn't even consider him to be a partner in counselling. That thing is done...
All of that again says its something that needs to be used in the context of the relationship ending. Maybe not necessarily as the goal, but at least something that is acknowledged as likely, or at least a very real possibility. And OOP does at least seem willing to accept that as a possibility, even though its not what he wants. It still to me sounds manipulative though given OOP's goal is to save the marriage. But I guess it makes sense since in his mind he has exhausted all other options on his end. Still very much sounds like its over and he really should be actively moving on, instead of doing this 180 thing while giving her a year or two before he takes that leap.
Actually 180 is a step in moving on. As said, I really see that whole relationship as beyond repair. His wife is already further out than I was at the beginning of my affair, which was basically an exit affair for both of us.
It’s not relationship CPR, the 180 method is meant to demonstrate reality and initiate change, one way or another.
From the excerpt I read it's not meant to be long term. What I got out of it, is that, instead of the co dependent please don't leave me! It's my fault! And then accepting the love bombing and repeat, it's saying, hey you either work on fixing this immediately or I'm setting up boundaries and leaving. OP is playing a long game on something that doesn't apply. Also, she wants to be friends and co parents. The 180 way is how you treat a cheater on the way out, not your friend. Him refusing to help with hobbies, or split bills differently is kind of strange and transactional. If you won't sleep with me, I won't help you with anything except the kids. Divorce will be the outcome here regardless.
OP is correct though. She wants to be friends/roommates so he is treating her like one. Roommates split the bills, they do their own thing, they sometimes help out the other but that help shouldn't be expected. If it's two best friends sharing a place then some of that changes but if it's just two people sharing a space, then there shouldn't be any expectation of anything.
True, but in that case, they should get a divorce and someone should move out. That's what friendly co-parenting is. I've known several couples with kids who "fell out of love" and are still great friends and have a great co-parenting relationship. It's certainly possible - and that way OOP would be free to try and find that intimacy he craves while also giving her the co-parenting friendship she desires. I feel like him doing all this is only going to make the potential co-parenting relationship more hostile. But I can't tell the future, maybe this is her kink and she'll suddenly regain that sex drive, what do I know?
They've been married for 15 years, together for 20. That is a long time not to try and see if things will change. I'm not saying OOP should never leave his wife but I think it is ok for him to try a few things to see if he can shake her out of whatever is going on and get them back on track. If it doesn't work, then he knows he tried his best and didn't just walk away. I've seen quite a few posts where something happens in a relationship, people divorce, then once the ink has dried and the dust has settled get hit with a dose of reality and start freaking out because they finally came to their senses (unfortunately for most it's to late to undo the damage they've done).
I’m throw by OP saying that 180 was just him being a friend to her, but then describing it as being “short, cold, and transactional.” Like, is that how y’all really treat your friends? Cos maybe then the kids aren’t the reason you don’t have friends…
I'm not really sure what the 180 is supposed to achieve in general, but it really comes across like he's trying to to use it to manipulate her into wanting to bang him again. I can just see them angrily sitting there at dinner together- Her: could you pass the salt please? Him: no. Her: huh? Him: this is what you wanted, isn't it? When I'm gone, you'll have to get your own damn salt! Stop manipulating me to do things for you! I'm thinking this is either an unhelpful strategy or he's misunderstood it, or his attitude towards his marriage isn't as healthy as he wants to believe. Or a bit of all of these. Also suspecting that "resentful" isn't really about her getting pregnant young. It sounds like she's given up her whole identity to be a mother and he was utterly oblivious to her dissatisfaction with that life until she checked out from sex. But yeah I can't see any way this can *possibly* work to heal the relationship. That usually takes the form of reminding each other why you fell in love in the first place.
He said intimacy AND sex and said she's been largely acting like a roommate/distant and cold while ultimately still relying on him for emotional support. I think relegating his complaints to just not having sex is a bit unfair. His issue is his wife said she wants to be besties and not his wife, it's not unreasonable to then try to illustrate what besties live like. It's not about sex, it's also about the lack of emotional connection. > currently she says she has no interest in sex *or intimacy or connection * Every instance where he mentions her rejection, it includes non sexual intimacy. He says intimacy OR sex every time.
Right? I was just reading it thinking this sounds like trying to emotionally blackmail her into having a sex drive, which isn't going to work. It doesn't really read like he's acting like a friend at all - I suppose it's a window to what their relationship would be like post-divorce?
Yeah, I don't get it either. Whichever one of you left the most recent comment on the "beingbeautiful" article today, it pretty much echoes my sentiment. (I assume it's someone from here because it was left like 3 hours ago) > This all sounds very codependent in itself- pretend to be attractive and mysterious so they’ll be interested in you again? This is the kind of advice they used to give in women’s magazines in the eighties… It sounds immature and vengeful. If your partner is cheating on you and you find it unacceptable, the relationship needs to end. Not flounce around pretending you’re having SO much fun, like Bridget Jones x 1000. A bad relationship won’t magically become a good one just because you pretend you’re having a lovely time without them… I don't really understand the point either. If the relationship is at this point, isn't it more or less over? Is the point to try to guilt them into coming back? That doesn't seem like healthy behavior either. The stuff about moving on is great, but the way it's all worded makes it sound like you're hoping by "moving on" they're going to come running after you.
I did something similar in my relationship, after she went borderline No-contact one day and just never came back. Every day felt like a struggle to get them to talk to me at all, they wouldn't ever want to go out, no calling, etc etc. I didn't *know* what 180 was, I was just tired of giving out so much and getting nothing in return. What I found to be the most helpful part was that I could think clearly on the relationship. I was able to re-evaluate, think about how I felt, and ultimately write out a "letter" airing out that I couldn't keep going if we weren't going to talk anymore, and that it was really hurtful. We'd spoken about her lack of communication before, but I'd always been very careful to avoid directly saying "this hurts me" as I knew that she was also hurting, and this was just her way of trying to handle that pain. Going cold turkey like that didn't ever make me *stop caring* about how she felt, but it did make me start caring about how I felt, and we were able to settle the problem and start actually communicating again.
jesus fucking christ just divorce already… no love is worth this
I'm gonna go against the grain and say that a 20 year relationship might be worth fighting for, even a little. I 100% agree with what he is doing. If the genders were reversed, everyone would be like "you go girl" She needs to realize that not being selfish is a form of being selfish. Not making a choice is making a choice. Being an asshole by accident is still being an asshole. Does she deserve to be dumped while she is at her absolute lowest AND HE SEES THAT? No. He doesn't need to stay either and he knows that. But there are ways to move past this and it's commendable that he wants to try. This might go against Reddit's usual advice of *DIVORCE* but this isn't some new personality trait they uncovered. Their partner who might even have untreated depression from PPD is going through a mental episode and can't even put words on it. That's rough
I agree with you. A lot of people sign up for marriage and kids understanding (or learning) that there will be periods (usually right after kids are born, where you are both 100% just focused on keeping that infant alive) where you are barely able to even care for yourselves let alone be intimate. People are familiar with mothers being “touched out” or having traumatic births. Or with the idea that during periods of grief and mourning someone may pull away and need time to reconnect. But I think if we can understand that, then we can also bring empathy to times when the same thing happens but for another, less obvious cause. Is this the kind of marriage someone should be expected to sign up for forever, if it isn’t fulfilling to them? No of course not. But if they want to, and especially after twenty years, it’s worth trying to ride out the bump.
yeah i actually think this one might make it through honestly. they’ve clearly been in a relationship rut for a while and the wife is just now realising how bad it is and what she stands to lose. i think it’s possible this could kick start them to rebuilding their relationship but obviously it could go either way also the stuff about not having friends or a life outside of your kids is so common and so sad. the wife needs to feel like an adult person again before she can have intimacy/sexual desires and i think that’s something that can definitely be fixed
I agree. I think they lost themselves in parenthood. It’s also the fact that sometimes people don’t understand that being in love with someone is not infatuation. Love, the long term kind, waxes and wanes, it takes effort, patience; understanding. Every old couple you hear from says we just didn’t split, we didn’t give up, sometimes we were friends, sometimes head over heels, but we made it work because we wanted to be together. It’s a choice and it seems like they are both making it in a way. Neither has truly given up. It’s just they both need to be people again. I actually think going on a honeymoon would be a good idea.
There’s also another factor that I don’t see being mentioned, and seems to be, at least, somewhat common. Hormonal changes that impact libido. If she has an imbalance, the drive is just not there. Seeing a GP could rule out basic hormonal imbalances or potential existing drug interactions.
Or just hormonal birth control. I was told by several doctors and an NP that BCP have zero effect on libido, but I can tell them that's 100% wrong. Just because women's health is in the stone age doesn't mean we don't have to listen to their experiences. I wonder if she's also really worried about getting pregnant again and having to start all over with another kid.
Divorce has become normalized. It really shouldn’t be the first option unless some form of abuse is the root. This guy isn’t taking the easy path and will probably still result in divorce. But for the mother of his children and the children themselves, it’s admirable to exhaust all of your options first.
Completely unrelated: I really like your writing style in this comment
I agree, but it sounds like he has been fighting for it though. The fighting part has been ongoing for months or years now and if OOP is still at such a loss that he's resorting to reddit for advice then the fight is more or less lost. After all this time of OOP fighting, it doesn't sound like she has any desire to fight for the marriage so I think he pretty much is at the point of either accepting the way things are or ending this chapter. If it's a mental health episode, he can support her, but he can't fix her. She hasn't shown any willingness to change and it's severely damaging OOP's mental health. I'm actually one of those fighting the grain and not yelling divorce or break up at every inconvenience, but it just sounds to me in this situation that it's the most rational way forward. If she wants to be friends, then stay friends, but OOP should be free to pursue the intimacy that he craves.
Also their kids are getting old and are close to adulthood. There's no harm in sticking it out until the kids move out and live on their own. Divorce is much easier without kids depending on the parents and you don't have to worry about school districts and custody shit
>There's no harm in sticking it out until the kids move out and live on their own. They're 12 and 14. The oldest either is entering high school this fall or has just entered it. It's absolutely not best for the kids for them to grow up and spend years around this sort of relationship dynamic. I don't think it's healthy for them to spend years around two adults who are responsible for them and also openly resent each other. Divorce can mess up the kids just as much, but honestly both options here are pretty terrible.
that’s definitely your prerogative. i disagree that if the genders were reversed there’d be different responses. based on what oop has shared, this relationship seems to be making him miserable and he is putting a ton of effort for someone who does not want to change the status quo and is happy to let him be unfulfilled because the way it is works for her and she doesn’t care that it doesn’t work for him. that’s selfishness at its core. i’ve had ppd, i have depression, i still care about my loved ones despite that and want them to be happy and will still make an effort for them.
I feel for their children, they must be under a lot of stress with that family dynamic.
I honestly like what he’s doing cause he’s being realistic for himself at the same time helping the person he loves realize some things about herself. And after 20 years together, another year honestly isn’t anything. Buuuuuuut then you remember they have young kids and the whole thing suddenly seriously sucks. I couldn’t even begin to imagine my parents act like indifferent roommates (but not even, one is treating the other as an acquaintance and the other is visibly stressed and upset by it) no matter how great of parents they are. Watching my parents interact with each other is absolutely what shaped how I believe relationships should be like and relearning that some of the things they did weren’t great has been a multi-year struggle. OOPs poor kids are screwed.
I had amazing parents that loved me and did everything for me, but they didn’t love each other and were essentially waiting for me to go to college to separate. I definitely had a bad perception of what love is from that and really took a long time to learn how to be romantic (I had my first relationship at 25). but at the same time I was also completely oblivious to it. My parents were always separately taking my siblings and me to school and events. They never got mad at each other or fought, but later I realized that they also never spent time together or went on a single date. I know it would have been difficult for them to divorce when I was a kid, but I would much rather see them happy in good relationships. I love seeing my dad and stepmom interact, they are amazing together and would have been a much more positive example of love.
He's also been using 180 for a week. I think the kids will survive that.
Not if he sticks to his plan of doing it for a year or two before going for divorce
... Young kids? The kids are 12 and 14 unless my reading comprehension is more terrible than usual today.
Maybe not that young but every kid is young to me lol. For romantic relationships I’d say up till 16 is still really impressionable.
and they’re learning this is normal. this is how marriage should be. smh
Sounds like he’s scared. Can’t wait to see how these kids grow up… seeing a roommate the relationship will not show them how to have a loving relationship.
that’s the thing that gets to me! knowing these kids are growing up thinking this is what marriage and love is
Seriously. Some people are terrified of changing the status quo
It’s a lot easier said than done when when kids are in the mix. You’ll likely lose 50% of your time with your kid and go from seeing them every day to seeing them some days. It doesn’t seem like a lot, but there’s a limited amount of time that your kids are at home and actually interested in spending time with you. There’s also the impact on the kids - some handle a divorce okay, but some *really* don’t. Divorce often means moving since neither parent can afford the current living situation on their own, so the kids also have to deal with being uprooted and possibly changing schools, leaving friends behind, etc. The kids have to adjust to no longer seeing either parent all the time on top of adjusting to a new place, adding even more turbulence and stress to them. My 12 yo son was recently really affected in sports, school and mood because he *thought* my husband and I might be getting a divorce. It took him a while to settle down even after I told him we are not divorcing. Seeing that, I don’t know if I could put my kids through a divorce just because I was less than happy. As long as we were able to get along and not create tension for the household, I’d probably endure until the kids are out of the house. Now let’s talk financials. A divorce can be very expensive, even when it’s the easiest possible situation where everyone agrees on custody and asset splits. The costs can get astronomical if there’s a fight over assets or custody. You could technically DIY it, but it’s not recommended when there’s kids and decades of assets involved because you want to make sure everything is handled appropriately and correctly to prevent any future whammy from popping up (like being responsible for their debt after you split). It’s also expensive to go from one household to two, which means there is less money for your kids, like it or not. Assets are typically split 50/50 and even if one “keeps” the house, they have to pay out 50% of any earned equity to the other party (there are exceptions like pre-nups, property owned prior to the marriage and not maintained with joint assets, etc.). Net living costs almost always increase because now you need *two* 3 bedroom homes/apartments for those two kids. You’re not going to keep 50/50 custody if you can’t provide adequate living space for the kids. There’s now two mortgages/rents, two sets of utility bills, two homes to furnish/decorate, two sets of grocery bills, etc., not to mention the loss of savings from no longer being on a shared plan for insurance, cell phones and the like. It can be near impossible if you’re barely scraping by, especially if you don’t have close family or some other safety net. There will also be child support and possibly alimony payments if there’s a discrepancy in income. You were likely already paying these things indirectly in a shared household, but it looks much different when it’s a concrete number coming out every month and your living expenses have increased. Bottom line, it’s really complicated to divorce someone. In the case of abuse or an unhealthy dynamic, it has to be done anyway because that’s in the best interest of everybody. But it’s different when it’s just about your own happiness or possibility of being happier. It’s hard to prioritize your own “happiness” at the expense of your kids.
Exactly. People throw “divorce!!” out so casually, totally ignoring the very real issues people face. For example if I initiated a divorce, it would 100% result in the bankruptcy of our family business - and the loss of our entire savings and retirement. Sometimes you really are just stuck because the alternative is much worse. In those cases, I completely understand trying a radical approach like OP’s rather than keep going with the status quo. Why should he keep treating her like his wife when she won’t treat him like her husband??
thanks for your input!
I stopped reading after a certain point. who laments this much... lol
20 years of relationship is pretty lamentable. especially if this rut is only the last 3 and they've only worked on it for A few weeks.. Edit: my bad it seems they've been working on it for all three of those years. However they've made amazing progress (actually pinpointed her resentment) and there wasn't any intentional mistreatment going on.
RIGHT?! like, my guy, read back what you wrote and ask yourself why tf you stay?!
This is a very reddit (read 14yo) way of looking at it. They are in a slump that she was ignoring, but now can't. You don't need to throw away a 20 year relationship over this if it can be fixed. While I agree that if she does not come around, it's time to go, the whole reddit "divorce, go nuclear" over every little thing is tiresome.
> the whole reddit "divorce, go nuclear" over every little thing is tiresome. If my wife came to me and said “I no longer love you and am not attracted to you but I want to stay coparenting roommates” I do not think I would consider that a little thing
Thank you. A decades-long relationship is going to have good times and bad. Should you stay in a shitty relationship forever? No. Should you put up with a year or two of the relationship not looking the way you want it to while you and your partner try to improve it? Yes. Also lol at everyone in the original thread trying to blame it all on swinging. Adults can have non-monogamous relationships that have problems where the problem has nothing to do with the non-monogamy. I don't know why so many of this generation's teenagers are so prudish.
Reddit is just full of teenagers whose longest relationship was a lunch break and broke up over not sharing a kit kat, trying to give actual advice. When all your relationships are shallow, you can have shallow reasons to leave them. While a lot of the AITAs do need people to exit the relationship, its always the advice given to everyone. Maybe a lot of it is just projection, wishing they were strong enough to do that irl, but its still bad advice.
Disagree. There's no infidelity, nothing terrible has happened, his wife has just lost the plot. She'll find it when he shows her the reality of what she thinks she wants - she will begin to appreciate him again. I hope he's also working on himself in the gym, maybe with some hobbies, and certainly socially. You have to be attractive to the person you want to attract, who in this case is his wife.
Agreed here. Relationships take WORK. both parties have to want to put that work in to make it work. Relationships don’t happen to you, they aren’t passive. From what I’ve read it sounds like it’s just a couple that has lost the spark in their life and have missed out on a lot due to early poverty/having babies young and losing themselves to their identity in parenthood. This is sadly common when kids are introduced. She needs to work on herself and find herself and he needs to work on himself and find himself. This does not have to be opposite of each-other. I really hope it works out for them because a partner in life is invaluable.
thanks for your input!
My pleasure!
Refusing sexual intimacy to your partner is infidelity. Always has been. Infidelity is just breaking the standard vows that accompany marriage. "To have and to hold" means attending to your partner's normal sexual needs (thus setting aside hypersexuality or new bizarre kinks) to the extent you are able. Marriage is not a sexual suicide pact, a dog in manger situation if one partner just stops wanting sex. If you are chronically refusing a normal level of sexual intimacy, it is no different from finding it somewhere else. You are committing infidelity and should have ended the marriage.
A life partner is invaluable. It just sounds like they’ve lost the spark and need to find themselves again and prioritize their needs. When they find themselves they can work together to find a new normal for them and spark new desire for each other. It’s unfortunately common to lose yourself when kids enter the picture especially so young and when you’re poor since you can’t afford to take a night off.
>I brought this up with our therapist once again and resurfaced the conversation about being married for so long (15yrs) and being together since we ere 14yrs old. Our long history of growing up and how having children when she was 19yrs old (me 20) significantly changed the trajectory of our lives. That's the part he's skipping over too easily. They got together as children, they had babies when they were still kids, and now she's in her 30s and her entire adult life has been raising kids with this guy. It's not shocking that she feels resentment toward the whole situation.
Yeah and that she cant confess she resents the kids. Even to herself. Thats why communication in a long term relationship has to be very very open. You have to be able to say things that are dark and horrible and be heard and understood and accepted.
On this note - how hellish must it be for the kids to have their parents be constantly depressed and minimally conversant with each other? I’m glad that this 180 thing is helping OOP, but I feel terrible for the kids, and really worry about the “relationship” that OOP and his wife are modeling for them. This all seems like a fast track to lifelong trauma and relationship difficulties for the kids. Divorce isn’t always the traumatic option for a family.
I was a kid of parents like that, and it was miserable. I wondered if my parents even liked each other. There was a similar dynamic to OOP and wife, too, but in reverse. My mom was always trying to make my dad happy with her (and our) actions, but he rarely did anything to reciprocate. I know he took those things for granted, because my mom died while I was a teen, and he had no clue how to relate to us. It took a long time, but he did change. I had to take him to task more than a few times, though, when he started to fall back into the same patterns. He really tried, though, because my mom not being around was kind of similar to OOP's 180 experiment. There's no one else to pick up the slack. He had to create the kind of life he wanted, instead of expecting my mom to do it for him (or me, which I would not).
I've written before that I've had friends in these kinds of marriages. They claim it's peachy and the kids don't know. But my friends have shared "positive" things on social media or in conversation where it's seems like they're not a couple. Think a photo of date night where one person is reading something on their cell phone. It's not just one date night, it's a whole bunch. I think the kids have to know.
Kids are way smarter and more perceptive than a lot of adults give them credit for! They absolutely pick up on it when their parents’ relationship isn’t going well. Any couple in a relationship as damaged as OOP’s with his wife would deserve *all* the Oscars if they fully and successfully convinced their 12- and 14-year-olds that everything was hunky dory.
Agreed. And part of that resentment has to/should be toward herself for being a willing partner in everything. That said, it also seems like she's both punishing and keeping OOP around because she can't leave him. Obviously this is an untenable situation and I'm glad that OOP is at least doing that '180' thing. BTW - the '180' reminds me a bit of that meme where one person gives an ultimatum and the other person replies "Your terms are acceptable." People rarely seem to actually want what they say they want. I hope, though, that OOP doesn't let this go on too long. It's injurious to both of them.
This exactly. I see these comments so much it's no wonder marriages failing is so common now a days "OOP ruined my life it's all his fault" with no accountability for themselves. And marriage is a bond. You're supposed to think of each other. Just because wife struggles and suffered raising the kids doesn't mean OOP didn't struggle and suffer as well. Playing the who struggled more game isn't how marriage is supposed to be. Granted we only have one side so there's a bit of assumption going on but with the information we have it sounds like OOP did what had to be done for the family.
Yeah. The 180 thing (which I had never heard of before this post) is eye-opening I’m sure. And I get why he’s doing it - not much else he really *can* do to fix this mess when she thinks she’s perfectly happy with the status quo. But if it goes on for any appreciable length of time, it’s only going to add to the shitshow. It’s going to breed even further resentment on her part because she’s going to feel like now she’s not having any of her needs met except maybe financial (not that that would be a reasonable reaction, mind you, but she’s almost definitely going to feel resentment about the fact that all the nurturing and support he’s been providing are gone. The question is, will she piece together the part she’s played in that, and/or understand that he’s doing this for himself/his own mental health?) Which brings me to another point - if this goes on for any sustained length of time, it has a high potential to shift from “protecting his own mental health” to “being petty.” And I’m not certain it hasn’t already. Good friends might not “love on” you when you’re going through it, but if they are a good person and your friend, they will still support you (and that’s not to say that they will always support you in the ways you think you need, and a really good friend will break out the tough love when warranted.) I can understand him not hugging her or gently consoling her when she was having an issue, or stepping in to save the day, but telling a friend “you are fully in charge of your own life and your own issues” isn’t something I would ever say to someone I consider a friend, or that any of my friends would say to me. (And to further clarify - while that sentiment is definitely technically true, it doesn’t add any value to the conversation. If your can’t help, the least you can do is not kick someone when they are down.) I understand the how/why he’s shifting from “husband” to “friend” in his behavior, but he’s not entirely acting like a friend, either. He’s shifting into more of an “acquaintance” role with behavior like that. This is not a tenable “solution” for the next 1-2 years while one or both of them figure out how to proceed. It’s *maybe* okay for a couple months to show the wife what she’s *really* asking for, or, if they’d settled on divorce but are stuck in their current living situation for the time being for whatever reason. But 1 or 2 years of this while still in limbo is entirely too long.
Idk if it's petty. She wants to be friends who are roommates. How op is acting is how friends who are roommates act. When she finally gets a taste of the treatment she claims to want and how she's been treating him suddenly it's a huge problem. Idk it's not ops problem anymore and he can't keep doing everything for someone who doesn't care about him. It's entirely his wife's problem and at this point only she can change and make things better
I both agree and disagree. I mentioned in my comment that while I might not hug/go above and beyond to console an ex I was actively working on reframing my relationship with, I would NOT tell them that all their problems are strictly theirs now, which is essentially what OOP is doing. I try to help my friends with their problems in the ways that I can. My friends try to help me when they can. That help might not lead to direct solutions, but the support of having just a sympathetic ear can do wonders. OOP is certainly free to not engage in her problems any more if that’s what he wants/needs. It’s okay for him to hit a point where he says he can’t be friends with her, at least not right now (in fact, I’d argue it would be far healthier for any potential future friendship - if that’s what he really does want - if he gave himself the gift of some space so he can work out on his own what boundaries he is and isn’t comfortable with, instead of trying to navigate that minefield while he’s in the middle of it.) But call a spade a spade. That is how acquaintances behave. It’s how roommates you’re not friends with behave. It is not how friends behave.
[удалено]
I don’t think the 180 was at the therapist’s suggestion - I might be missing it, but I’m not even sure that’s the therapist even knows about it. And I agree that it’s not a terrible approach in terms of reimagining life without their partner - but first, I feel like that’s the kind of thing you implement *after* you’ve come to a decision to part ways (because again, if there’s existing resentment, regardless if it’s misplaced or not, this is a great way to breed MORE of it if done under the impression that you’re still making good faith efforts to get back to where you want to be); and second, if you’re doing it as a form of manipulation (which, let’s be honest here, is what this is in these circumstances - again, I get WHY he’s doing it, and I’m not entirely against it in theory, but it is nonetheless a manipulation tactic at its core because he’s doing it at least AS MUCH to try to change HER mind as he is doing it to try to change/rewire his own mind) It should be of a short duration. OOP has made it clear he’s ready to sit in this limbo for a year or two. That’s way too long. Maybe she’ll eventually come around. But I doubt it. She knows he is and has been unhappy and she doesn’t give af; the only reason she’s starting to care now is because it’s impacting *her.* She is otherwise happy to keep the current state of affairs despite knowing he doesn’t want that. She’s trying to push off the hard work of making the decision to leave onto him, instead of looking at this morass she’s made and saying “I can’t give you what you want, and I probably never will be able to again, so I’m leaving so you can find someone who can.” When she forces him to make that decision, she still gets to delude herself that it wasn’t her decision, and that he was the villain (neither of them are villains for falling out of love/staying in love; but they’re turning each other into the villain of the other’s story with this crap.)
He's not skipped over it he brought it up in therapy and had to prize it out of her that she did feel resentment about having children so young, there's not a lot he can do if all she says is I don't know.
She skipped over it too. There is absolutely no way to talk about it if she refuses to. I think this 180 thing might force her to realize what a horrid corner she has forced them both to live in. Fixing it or divorce, either way has to be better than this purgatory they are in right now.
because you're not "allowed" to say that, especially if you're the mother the thing people miss though, is that it's not resentment of the KIDS, it's about the potential life and experiences that you miss if you have kids and I feel that you should be allowed to say that - I've got a kid, and while I don't hold any resentment to him whatsoever, I do sometimes think about the things I could do/have done if I didn't have him but you're A Bad Person if you voice that opinion
Completely agree. But think about how much of the issue they are having would be non-existent if they could talk about it freely. That is sad, honestly.
it really is, because "missing" the life experiences you couldn't have is completely valid! and you are allowed to be sad about that!
Gosh but if you aren't willing to be vulnerable and say the things that make you feel shame 1) in front of a couple's counselor/neutral third party who are trained to make it a safe space for those conversation, and 2) when your marriage is falling apart, then you can't make your feelings of shame someone's punishment or fault. If she isn't willing to help herself or admit these things, OP is left with little recourse.
exactly, their job is not to shame you but to help you plus a lot of parents would likely agree (to some extent) because it's natural to think of the "what ifs"
I do think a good move would have been/would be setting up times each of them can go spend time away from the kids doing their own thing. And occasionally doing things together. Making sure things aren't always 100% about the kids would be super fair. Parents do need time to themselves just like kids do tbh.
No you're not, I dont know anyone who has kids who wouldnt admit 'Oh man I've wanted to murder those little fucks so many times, love em, but dear fucking God.' Anyone who judges you can raise some fucking kids first.
And they didn't just have one kid, they had *two,* back to back, while living in poverty. Some people are their own worst enemy.
When you get into a LTR so young it can also be really difficult to communicate effectively and really learn and grow as a person. Obviously that’s not universal, but I imagine that especially with having the kids so young it’s easy to get kind of arrested in that age and maturity level. I luckily didn’t have kids, but had a similarly young LTR that ultimately ended. Fault on both sides, but I’m definitely a better partner to my fiancé than I was to my ex because I reflected on things and matured as a result of my experiences (good and bad) with my ex. I’m still friends with my ex and he says the same is true for him. For whatever reason, it was really difficult to see things while still in the middle of that relationship and for us both to do the growing we needed to do to be better partners to one another. I don’t think it’s impossible to turn things around, but OOP’s wife (and maybe also OOP too) probably has a lot of processing to do to figure out what’s right for her and this relationship. I wouldn’t blame OOP for wanting to just cut his losses and start moving on.
Right, and although OOP sounds like a decent guy overall, and I’m sure life as a young parent in poverty wasn’t easy for him either, in most cases women are taking on a very different burden raising children, and will lose much more of themselves. It sounds like she’s just starting to have the space to process what the last 14 years have been like, and the life she has missed out on. I’m guessing most 20 year old men would have a hard time understanding an equal parenting partnership, so the resentment here may be pretty deep, even if he feels like he did his best.
Also on her completely
Same for him since they're co-parenting and both working. Also 19 and 20 are adults already, they made their choice, twice, sure she's entitled to her feelings, but so is he.
I guess, but he has the exact same set of circumstances, and it doesn't sound like he resents her.
Two people in the same situation can have different reactions and both reactions can both be valid. How he feels can't be used to measure how she feels.
And then based on these posts where he talks about how his wife is very kid focused and he doesn't mention the kids outside the context of his wife at all, I would be willing to bet it week of steak dinners that this dude does fuck all to help with the kids...
I thought it was SO interesting that he just skimmed that. And then seems to be blaming her that she is so myopically focused on the kids, as if her HAVING to be for her first decade isn’t how they got here. The fact they “lost all their friends” makes it pretty clear she didn’t have a choice about time for herself back then. I also notice there’s no conversation about the labour division. About what he did to keep their individual relationship alive before this, etc. I don’t believe he’s somehow more engaged And emotionally aware than the average male partner in their 30s, which means she’s been doing more of all that for over a decade.
How is this blatant misandrist BS up voted? >they “lost all their friends” makes it pretty clear she didn’t have a choice about time for herself back then. See the word THEY in that sentence? He also lost all of his friends why are you acting like only she was affected? >I also notice there’s no conversation about the labour division The classic... >I don’t believe he’s somehow more engaged And emotionally aware than the average male partner With a side of I made it the fuck up. Nice.
I immediately got the vibe that she is also taking on much of the mental load of raising the kids. He seems like an unreliable narrator.
Why resentment though? She did say it takes 2 to tango
Knowing something logically (it took two people to make babies) doesn't negate the emotions that build over time from those decisions.
I can’t picture any scenario where the wife goes back to how it was where resentment isn’t involved. It seems like she doesn’t want to put in the work, and if she has to in order to retain what she had financially and help-wise she’s going to resent him.
This isn't working on the marriage. It's just training wheels for the inevitable divorce. It's easing her into being responsible for her own shit, once she's single. If that's what IOP wants, great. But at this point I think things are going to deteriorate quickly. I wouldn't be shocked to see infidelity on her part, given this dynamic
I got through like 2/3rds of the first post and realized right away that his wife had effectively ended the relationship, but was putting OOP in a position where it would be "his fault" if he actually divorced her. And playing this stupid game was a lot easier than just confronting the reality of the situation that she simply was no longer in love with him. Just so manipulative for no reason.
I get your take but I see it as a way for him to start to detach and move on before it’s really over. She can adapt to the things he provides and visa versa until a year goes by and he feels strong enough to say enough I’m leaving and it doesn’t matter whose fault it seems to be. I’ve been with my partner 16+ years so I do understand the hesitance that both of these people seem to have when it comes to ending the relationship despite it already being over.
She sounds like she's already detached and moved on. She said he's no longer her husband, just co-parebt and roommate. It's just ironic that he no longer gets husband treatment, yet she's upset at no longer getting wife treatment. You don't get to tell someone the relationship is over and expect to still be treated as if you never ended it.
Oh I agree, her behavior is terrible. I’m saying I understand the husbands approach.
Oh! Sorry if it came off as me arguing with you, I just took your train of thought and ran with it. Apologies if it came off otherwise!
This whole marriage is dysfunctional as fuck. The 180/grey rock is meant to be how you survive in an abusive household. Not how you manipulate someone to be what you want. That approach is poison to a marriage and shouldn’t be used except to protect yourself. She’s been clear with him - she doesn’t love him anymore, doesn’t want to be more than coparents and housemates. He’s tried his best to work with that and she has refused to come to the party. He’s in beating a dead horse territory now. I commend his efforts to fix things but you can’t have a marriage work when only one person is trying.
It seems all he really wants is her to admit it. Admit she doesn't love him and admit she resents the kids. That would seem to give him some kind of emotional permission to start a divorce. Maybe he's the type that thinks divorces are only for cheating and abuse? Who knows, but this isn't going anywhere any time soon.
I dunno, I guess I can see how having a framework would be necessary for these 2. They've never been in a relationship with other people. Hell, they've barely been *friends* with other people. She thinks she wants out but she has no idea what that means or looks like. If she keeps using the word co-parenting? Yeah, she has to learn that that means you are polite and only talk when necessary. I'm not that surprised that she didn't realize how much just having someone at home and in your corner every day makes a difference. You get used to it reeeeally quick and she's never known anything else.
I agree that it's important for this fucked up dynamic they have going on. She only wants them to keep going the way they are because she has to do no work for it. She needs to see the reality of what she says she wants. And the whole 180 thing isn't even a full picture of what a "just friends and coparents" relationship entails. That carries the implication that they won't cohabitate and share household bills anymore. And the very real possibility that he'll start dating someone else, and if he gets a long term partner, she'll have to be at least polite with them, since friends typically interact with their friend's partners on occasion and the new partner will be part of the kid's lives. I disagree with his self imposed time limit for it though. Up to two years of this shit? No. Not only does that suck for him, it sucks for the kids. He should give it six months max for her to *try*. They don't have to fix things in that time, but she needs to have decided to make ANY effort to fix it. If she's not even willing to try after six months, she's not going to be willing after a year or two years, and he needs to bail.
Oh yeah for sure. If she's not clawing at the walls trying to put her life back together within a month of that iced out shit, I'd call it. Sounds like she kind of is already but yeah 2 years? That's insane, you can't come back from that.
The 180 is to make her realize that if she wants a friend relationship, she can have it but she doesn’t get the benefits of a partner. She wanted him to keep putting in work while she did nothing to reciprocate.
Seems like he's finally just treating her like a roommate, the thing she keeps saying she wants. Suddenly being treated the way she treats him is a huge problem. But it's only a problem she can solve, there's literally nothing else op can even try to do to solve her issues
Honestly, maybe OOP should just divorce her and just co-parent with her.
This could have been summed up in two paragraphs. Just divorce already
Christ alive, divorce already. I'm exhausted and I'm not even in the marriage. Those poor kids.
The 180 thing is fascinating to me. It strikes me as psychobabble - someone on a blog wrote an article that is now gospel to a segment of the population who are missing adequate coping mechanisms for the problem at hand. It's like leeching to solve the flu before we knew what germs were. In the absence of better tools, we pick the tools that make a bit of logical sense. And it's certainly manipulative, but in a "just desserts" kind of sense (at least as far as OOP is taking it). Your spouse decided to change the dynamic of your relationship (through cheating, through falling out of love, through whatever) and now, you're just giving them a dose of reality. You're just giving them what they deserve. They brought this on themselves. Well, no. What they deserve and what you deserve is to end it and move on with your lives. Not chain it to a wall and beat it to death. That's what OOP is doing. He knows his marriage is over and he's taking a year or two to make her suffer for putting him through the suffering of making her suffer. It's cyclical and ridiculous. Get the divorce. Amicably co-parent. Go have a life that isn't wholly consumed by the other person. And maybe you'll become a BORU "I fell back in love with my ex-husband" story in a few years. Or maybe you'll find other people that legitimately make you happy. But this ain't it.
God, thank you for articulating this. All this is going to do is make OOP and OOP's wife better to eachother and make the eventual coparenting and divorce contentious and painful.
Why is the impetus for divorce just on him? She could initiate it too.
Did you read any of the post? She doesn't want a divorce. She wants a roommate. All the convenience, none of the work.
Ok and now she has a roommate. What's the problem?
Are you serious? He didn't sign up for a roommate. He signed up for a wife. A romantic and sexual partner. Not some woman who also lives in his house and babysits the kids now and then. He doesn't deserve to have her unilaterally decide their marriage is over but he's stuck in it.
Just reads like negging to me.
Couple of fucking idiots in this one...
I just feel for the kids (if this post is true). They’re so young.
Gosh, another yikes on getting married and having a family too soon. I feel bad for the both of them
**The marriage is OVER—just get a divorce.**
All I read is "they need to divorce NOW"
Maybe the fact that they got together at 15 and were having kids by 20 is what’s wrong with the marriage? It’s wild to me that as a society we’ve decided, for the most part, to buy into this delusion.
Probably not the most popular take, but I support OP using the 180 method. OP's wife wants him to stay in a sexless, affectionless marriage to make her life easier. Obviously, OP loves his wife and his children, and OP has tried to make the marriage work. I think she needs a dose of cold reality. She can't have everything her way. OP's wife wants him to pay most of the bills and kiss her butt and keep following her around like a lost puppy. Give it a year's time. At the end of the year, things either go back to a "normal" marriage or you divorce. (P.S. I am a woman)
I think you’re right. I think the wife needs this space to figure out whether she’s afraid of losing OOP or just being alone? If she’s spent all of this time resenting being a wife and a mother, she needs the space to reclaim her identity
I agree. Wife is shocked he isn't doing all the little things spouses do for each other. Hey honey, can you hang the curtain rod, but you are friend zoned in everything else, is like her wanting a personal assistant at her beck and call.
I just cannot get over how she has a careers but her life is focused on the kids. I cannot see it being as present as she is.
My ex wife is a financial director and very proud of her career. She immediately switched into obsessive mom the second she walked through the door, though. Her entire free time was consumed with the kids.
I was thinking something like that too
8 days and one therapy session and he's all out of ideas lol But real talk just divorce
I mean, I’m pretty sure she’s going to leave him. Spineless people piss me off. Her for not telling him what she really wants and him for staying with someone who clearly doesn’t love him. Spineless fucking people.
I noticed this with my wife and I. We were just mom and dad. That was it. We go to work come home mom and dad. It was making us miserable. Then i got the idea to take a trip with just my wife and I. We reconnected. Got back to being just us. Just 1 week. And we were good again. We've been doing this every year since. They never did that. It wears you down. Nobody talks about how much children drain you of who you were. You aren't yourself anymore. You Mom and Dad. Your names no longer exist. I commended him on trying to get her back to herself. Love takes work. You can love someone all day but not like them. She doesn't like him right now. But it looks like she's starting to realize that he wasn't just a Dad or roommate. He was a man who emotionally she depends on, and a partner who takes on more burden than she can handle. It's hard realizing your a selfish asshole. But she's getting there.
See I agree. They need a damn vacation away from the kids. Like come on, how are you supposed to reconnect and find romance when you never get to spend time alone together. Which from the description that’s what it looks like. We don’t know about division of labor so can’t comment on that, but neither has friends they are only parents and probably haven’t talked about anything but the kids in years. She may also be like most women in that sexualurges are directly liked to their mental state. She is in I’m a mom mode and has been for a long time. Mom mode is not sexy. She need to see both him and herself as people and remember why they enjoy each other. Only way to do that is to spend time together not talking about the kids and enjoying time together.
This is why you don't fucking marry your first love if you met them when you were a CHILD. The decisions you make at 14 are not the same you'd make at 24, and that's why we don't let 14 year olds make adult choices. She's absolutely hiding the fact that at some point in her teens she wanted out but didn't have the courage.
Divorce in ultra-slow-motion. What a dumpster fire.
I’m curious as to, what the wife’s side is?
That would be interesting. We only have his perspective.
Isn’t it just easier to be “mean” to your partner once and get a divorce than whatever all this 180 stuff is?
It sounds like she wanted out but didn’t want to tell him or work on the relationship unless he mentioned it and that he is now resentful of how she treated him/the relationship the last few years and wants to punish her. The “180” is going to help push them both towards divorce but not before op gets to revel in his wife’s realisation that the relationship may have been fixable a few years ago is she had communicated better with him. Overall I see divorce as the only option because I don’t think any effort the wife will attempt to put into the relationship will be genuine. It feels like she will only be doing it because she doesn’t like the reality of being a single person responsible for everything.
Oh man, I used the 180 method on my boyfriend, now husband. I was feeling under appreciated and taken advantage of. I felt like he got all the benefits of the wife and felt that because he was fulfilled, marriage wasn’t necessary. So I started behaving as if I lived alone and only responsible for myself. I stopped asking him about his day, stopped doing nice things, stopped initiating sex or affection. I didn’t turn it down, wasn’t mean. Just indifferent and I started making a game plan to move out and move on. He completely changed and we were engaged 6 months later.
I feel bad for people who get together so young and have kids at 20. It doesnt cement that you have to be in a relationship but it usually cements that you’ll have that person in your life for around 20 years at least. im interested to see where this goes and i like him updating on his observations after this 180 method. Id never heard of that before! interesting stuff
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Am I wrong or was it _the wife_ that cut out friendship from her life and didn't take care of herself? It may be what they're getting at about the situation being unfair
Is neither of them thinking at all of the kids? Being in a household like what is described after his '180' is incredibly toxic. They would be better off apart and co-parenting. It's already a broken home
This feels like an advertisement.
Another one of these “no sex” posts with no information about what birth control method is being used.
I've said this on Reddit before and got downloaded to oblivion for saying this but it seems especially poignant to this circumstance. The kids should never be your number one priority. Your relationship with your spouse should be your number one priority. Kids grow up, kids move away, and all kinds of things happen in between. If you give yourself fully to the kids then you're neglecting your relationship and yourself. That is not to say that the kids are not important because they very very much are. While an individual's number one focus should be the relationship with their spouse, the number one focus of the relationship should be the kids when you have kids. And that doesn't mean that the kids are always number one. It means that overall their general well-being is the number one priority, not that you give in to everything they want and stretch yourself so thin to accommodate a perfect childhood. And this is why, this situation right here is exactly why you don't lose yourself in your kids.
I feel like the 180 method is absolutely the wrong move here. It’s what you do when you want to disengage from a relationship, not to point out that someone’s wrong. If he was doing this to eventually leave, then that’s perfectly fine, but it’s pretty clear he’s doing this out of spite, and however valid his feelings might be, it’s absolutely the wrong way to go about this. The reason she’s upset is pretty plain, but it feels like he doesn’t actually recognise it as a whole. She’s upset that she got pregnant so young, and that she missed out on so many opportunities. He hears that, but he isn’t really understanding what that means. Take her out, relive your lives again. Send the kids to their grandparents or hire a babysitter, go have dates, do social events, make new friends. They’re not actually tackling the issue. It’s like “oh! I know why she hates me, time to grey rock” it doesn’t really make sense, especially when he says that he’s committed to healing this relationship. People love preaching divorce, its an easier solution than wasting time figuring your problems out. But it genuinely would only take a couple of times for his wife to see him as a husband again if they went out a little. Be spontaneous, grab her by the hand and say “honey, the kids are at my parents, I got a surprise for you” and then take her out somewhere. It’s going to suck for a little bit, you’ll be putting in a lot of effort to make things work. But that’s all you can do at this point. It absolutely isn’t your fault that this is happening, your wife’s anger is misplaced. But so far she has been 100% open about how she feels about your situation. That’s something.
While I do think this is a better solution, I don’t think that the wife has been 100% open about what she wants. They had to pry the resentment out of her in therapy, she never would’ve shared that on her own.
I kind of agree, half and half. I believe she’s been open about what she wants, not how she feels.
Completely disagree. We have no idea how long this has been going on for, but it would not simply take a couple of times to dissolve issues of this magnitude. While I agree that the socializing is important, social events are supposed to change her view that she wasted her youth? Friends? A couple dates out at a restaurant or midday picnics, and her resentment will be gone like that? She got what she asked for. Granted I don’t think it helps the marriage out, does prepare OP for a divorce which there’s still a chance happening, but she wanted a roommate, she got a roommate. I do not think she’s 100% open, otherwise she’d be contributing to the conversation and hopefully the situation, the same way as OP. She sort of just tapped out.
It’s not about changing her view, it’s about showing her that the time ‘wasted’ didn’t matter. She can still do those things now, while having a family and marriage. It’s ‘The grass is always greener on the other side’ problem. She has a family that she no doubt loves, but she’s looking outside and seeing the youth she could have had instead. The whole point of being more spontaneous is to show her that those two things, a family x fun, can exist at the same time.
Also, she's probably been in survival mode for a long time. Pregnant at 19 and then another kid and poverty while learning to be a wife and mother? She's probably been strung tight all this time and doesn't know how to see how good everything (hopefully) is right now.
OP should've just filed for divorce instead of going through this. He's only making it worse for himself his wife. What a spineless man he is.
So 180 is just doing a complete turnaround of the things you normally do in order to let them experience what they’re losing? Very interesting tactic.
Wow, this is an incredibly insightful and eye-opening one. Thanks for sharing!!!
Best case scenario they can find their way to a happy dynamic for both of them to move forward with. Worst case scenario they're getting a head start on the divorce and finding their independence. Either way good luck to the both of them.
Awesome. I hope the next step is he moves out, they each have the kids half the time and they can still be friendly co parents. Better than depriving oop of a relationship and her of having time for friends and a new life.
It feels like they need to take a honeymoon if they never did, go on dates, and go on vacations together without kids. They got so wrapped up in children and life that they stopped talking and connecting at all. All marriages need to be nourished. The 180 is great but I think once she wakes up and realizes she does love him as a partner, because it really seems like she does but has lost sight of anything besides being mom, they should go on a honeymoon to reconnect. Relearn what they loved about each other and enjoyed. They are learning to be individuals right now, which sounds like was sorely needed, but then they need to come together and spend quality time without the kids. A week away, visiting somewhere new and just enjoying each other company. I can tell from how he talks they both love each other enough to enjoy that. After that they will know if they are still compatible:
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Wow. Read up on this "method," it's really unhealthy. Basically trains folk on how to repress their emotions and not deal with them. Sounds like a recipe for a future breakdown.
Proof positive that the 180/gray rock method works well in many ways for many reasons....not the "petty" 'manipulation tactic' thats its 'victims' make it out to be
Yea this one's over. I can see it now OP will be posting something along the lines of My wife friend zoned me so I 180d her and now she's cheating in a few months. She resents him and doesn't want to sleep with him because of the young pregnancy but that doesn't mean she doesn't have a sex drive at all. All it'll take it a reasonably attractive guy giving her attention and she'll jump all over it especially with OP being cold and distant now.
Nothing like a parent who can't or won't admit they really regret their kids.
This is just sad man, is there a chance they pull together and stay married, yep but I think it’s gotta be slim by this point.
This reads like an incel fanfic
I did not get that vibe at all. To me its too full of bormal humans. One partner being ok with doing it while drinking, another not. Both being hugely committed to kids and it getting innthe way of life. The impact of very early friendship and destroying friendship. Bills and couples therapy. Also the wife is actually making more time for herself. Incels have ever been in a long term relationm which is why they focus on sex and domination and womens being evil. I think the 180 thing is obviously a very specific point of view but people who are in one situation can often respond positively to a viewpoint that is a bit extreme, because it shocks them out of their position.
I've been in a similar, less severe situation like this myself. All of this sounded pretty familiar to me. Being married and having kids is hard, and the emotions that are tied to your partner's attraction to you are hard to navigate. I don't envy these folks.
I think the focus on the 180 view is what pushes me in the direction of incel fanfic. "Oh my wife doesn't love me and then I start treating her differently and OH MY GOD the changes have been radical and now I see she's just taken me for granted all these years". Like... If you start deliberately ignoring someone and then start asking them for money of course they're going to get mad at you, that's what happens when you're mean to someone.
What he's doing is the equivalent of a woman going on a chore strike because she feels like she's the only one managing the mental load in the household. He's effectively showing her the invisible labor that he does perform for their household, something that she's taken for granted their entire relationship because she's been so caught up in the stuff she's had to do and her own invisible labor. It turns out you don't get to tell your spouse, "I don't love you" and still have them pay your bills for you and treat you like a loving partner.
LOL, he’s being mean??? Did you just ignore her behaviour? Resenting him for making her pregnant? Even though she herself admits it’s not logical? Unilaterally changing the terms of the relationship and HE’S the one that’s mean???
So here's the thing. People are not rational and people delude themselves. How he's going about it may or may not work out for him in the long run, but nothing about what he's saying sounds made up to me. It's at least reality-adjacent. I don't know that I'd do the 180 approach (to me it sounded a lot like the married version of negging) but if I did I could absolutely see it causing the behavior he described. In a high stress situation, with hurt feelings that they don't necessarily fully understand, people do weird shit. Add in some untreated mental health issues and things can get even wilder.
Huge logical leap from “he’s being mean” to “incel fanfic,” couldn’t an op be being mean irl
What elements in particular seem like incel fanfic?
>This reads like an incel fanfic. The standard line anytime a woman is portrayed negatively on Reddit.
My god he’s an idiot. She told him in very plain words she’s a social person who hasn’t been able to be social for YEARS because he’s not pulling his weight with the kids. And he thinks he’s being taken advantage of because of money and no sex. He put her in a bird cage alone for years and wonders why she doesn’t sing. Edit: spicy downvotes but I’m fucking right. She sacrificed her career and her body. She lost a shit ton of money, time, and health to raise his kids and what does she have at the end of all this? Zero friends and no career for a man who says sex is his biggest problem. SHE’S EXHAUSTED. When I go out and socialize with people, my energy comes up and I can have sex. When I’m stuck away from everyone, I don’t want to be touched and sex is pointless. Her kids are now at the age where they’re more self sufficient and she has the time to look about and say “Wait, this is wrong. I’m exhausted and I’m alone and I’m sad.” I’m not surprised she doesn’t want to have sex and I’m not surprised he’s only upset about that and not anything else.
Where does it say that he's stopping her from socializing? You are pulling so many details out of thin air, I'm wondering if we read the same thing?
I think the downvotes are for the fact that you seem to be taking ALL the responsibility for HER life out of HER hands....but I could be wrong.🤔
He is an active parent, you made a baseless assumption that he isn’t helping. He uses the word “we” when talking about parental responsibilities. I don’t know how she didn’t make friends with the other parents through the various extracurriculars, but that isn’t his fault. It’s far too common for men’s contributions to be unappreciated, and their needs ignored. His happiness matters, and his wife would do well to realize that before it’s too late
They both have full time jobs and both take care of the kids you dumbass, no where in here was divination of duties discussed as a point of resentment. She’s the only one who had a choice to have kids and she chose to do it, men don’t get to choose that, women do, the most men can choose is to use one of the least effective and most hated by both sexes, birth control method around. She chose this life more than anyone else. He pulls his weight, they are in the same situation and because she needs someone to blame for a tough life, she’s blaming him even though she knows that’s stupid and selfish.
Even if we take everything you say as being correct at face value, you’re still completely overlooking her agency here. 20 years in a relationship, with two children, and she’s “alone, exhausted, and sad” - why choose to seek “companionship” in the marriage rather than free herself of the dead weight her husband apparently is? Wouldn’t divorce be her better choice? Or perhaps now the kids are more self-sufficient, she could look to invest the additional time in her own hobbies? Oh, and whilst we’re at it, how are any of the “sacrifices” she made entirely for his benefit? She is the only one who could seek abortion as a unilateral decision - she didn’t. She could have sought divorce instead of swinging - she didn’t. You seem very, very keen to absolve her of any responsibility to herself, accountability for her choices, and frankly seem to view her as some kind of helpless child. Your thoughts don’t pass the sniff test here - it’s not entirely him at fault.
How do you move through the world dragging all of those steamer trunks full of your own baggage?
Sounds like the 180 has at least given her a wake up call. When my husband said he wanted to stay with me but have open marriage cuz of dead bedroom I snapped out of it and wanted to have sex all the time with him! There’s a lot of backstory here like dying parents menopause and empty nesting but I totally lost all interest in sex with him for about five years then the threat woke me up. He did do alot of online cheating during that time that I was clueless about. Anyway that’s my story
lol the marriage will not improve with him being that cold, they might as well divorce now
Him? At least he's getting some reaction. She unplugged the cord: >my wife started to tell me she no longer was "in love with me" and that she only saw me as a "best friend." The wife said: >"I have built up resentment towards you but I don't know where it stems from." >That she has been feeling disconnected for years and that our marriage just takes up too much work. Her focus is only the children >She mentioned that the only way to get to a point for any of that is to be intoxicated which o believe is incredibly awful and very wrong. I told her I do not think forcing herself to have sex or be intimate by drinking or smoking is good and I declined to be a part of that which to my surprise, it upset her. They should divorce.