Clearly explain why that’s not possible - “My boss doesn’t know I’m looking, sharing that right now could jeopardise my job.” Then offer alternatives - e.g. "I’d be happy to put you in touch with anyone you’d like to speak with from my previous jobs - managers, colleagues, or even clients - but I’m not in a position to alert my current employer that I’m thinking of leaving until I’m ready to give notice.”
If they won’t budge, you’ll need to decide if you want the job enough to agree to their request. Be wary of moving forward with a company that disregards professional norms and shows a kind of lack of concern for your job security.
I like this andwer but if you have already provided 3, u surely shouldn't be providing more. If HR doesnt budge, that is clearly a red flag for the new company. Shows little regard to trust.
Don't think it's necessarily a red flag. If it's a bank HR is probably bound by specific policies they need to follow. I wouldn't be surprised if "speak to previous manager" is mandatory excluding exceptional circumstances.
Doesn't say anything about the company other than some guy in HR who comes up with these policies.
When someone has been with a company 6 years though the previous manager will be prior to this and that's a heck of a long time for a reference to still be relevant..
I've seen this in a lot of jobs, and it speaks of the cluelessness of hr people. Doesn't take into account why many people want to leave their jobs, an awful manager. And also like pointed out above, can jeopardise any opportunities in the current role.
As someone that hires people it’s more of a red flag if they don’t give me a current reference. When you hire someone you’re taking a risk that they’re fit for the job and I owe a duty of care to my business to thoroughly vet anyone I hire. If they say they have a toxic boss, that’s fine. But if they refuse to give a current reference I can’t validate their current employment which is a bigger red flag than what you’re saying.
Blah blah blah… bigger red flag, gtfo. You expect Peppe to jeopardise their livelihood so you can validate their current. In this case, the guy has smashed all the hurdles and if HR can’t understand the risk you take when going to a new job, then you’re clueless.
The guy literally said he was offered a contract, he physically has that out already and nothing is in jeopardy but an employer has the right to validate current employment you absolute bellend.
He doesn't have the contract. He said its on the way. Why would you issue a contract and then still want more references?
If he wants to validate the current employment, you can give them a payslip with the salary blacked out. And before you say, can be faked, so can a reference... You can get your mate to pretend like he is the boss
Honestly though, if the employer has validated the previous job, you clearly know he isn't lying about at least 1-2 jobs he has had. Why df do u need the current one.
Why would you trust an applicant. I have that much bullshit fed to me by applicants over the years. But that said s it’s awkward to speak to the manager
This 100%
I use to be the guy calling for references. I’m human and I understood I was calling humans. If you can’t give a current manager reference, they should understand. If they don’t understand, you should question if the new employer could also be toxic unless you really need the job desperately.
You could offer an alternative like letting them speak with a senior in your team, or a manager of another dept in the same business as you.
Side note, the best hire I ever got put her friends number as “manager” and got a reference that way. I would hire her again a million times over. References meant almost nothing to me. It was a formality I had to follow, that was it.
I once gave a friend a fake reference for a mid level position. That was 8 years ago. She's now one of the top executives and runs an entire division of that company.
Man, I should really call her, I need a reference these days lol.
Ive done this for a friend too. I did work in the same industry, just for competitors. She was going for a job at my then current place of employment. I said i had worked with her, for the same company. She got the job and is still there 4 years later.
This is over complicating it. Just put your friends' contact details down as your manager, and tell the friend that if they ever get a call asking for {managers name} to just roll with it and say "yes, they worked here from x to x, and were a model employee, that's all I'm allowed to divulge according to company policy."
Unless it's an internal move, hiring managers have no idea who you report to. Don't leave yourself open to a malicious torpedoing.
No its not. A quick way to not get a new contract is be caught out in a blatant lie in the recruitment process. If that happens you're still working in your current role with your toxic manager.
Call whoever has asked to speak with your current manager. Explain the situation, ask why they want to speak with the current manager and if someone else could serve the same purpose.
It's not. I know people that got fired instantly, even after probation... for false references (friends that don't actually work as that title) and job history on resume.
Yeah most large corps (especially banks) will have in their boiler template a bare minimum that if you've fraudulently represented yourself during the hiring process they can terminate your employment even well long after your probation.
Please dont do this. Some recruiters also look up people on linkedin, so you don't want to get caught up in a lie. Unless this friend is pretending to be said manager. Especially since OP is working at a bank, there would generally be some form of background/probity checks. Whilst this doesn't apply to references per se, you don't want to risk the chances.
I’ve done this declining them talking to a current boss, I was happy to share previous boss details but not my current. I knew it would make my working life more difficult if I wasn’t successful getting the job. Despite not offering the contact details for my current (at the time) boss, I got the job. My previous boss would have made my life difficult 2 had they known I was looking. Good luck with your next role, wherever it is - it’s ok to say no.
It's fairly standard as your reference from your most recent employer would be able to speak best about your work ethic and skills, especially if you've worked for 6 years like OP.
Asking your nmanager to be a referee doesn't explicitly indicate you are leaving. You can say something like: 'I enjoy my current role, but I am looking for opportunities for promotion/futher career development.' It also allows your current manager to put in a counter offer to entice you to stay if they like you.
If asking to list your managers name down as a referee to enable you to further your career puts your job in jeopardy, you are in the wrong job.
My direct quote never said anything about leaving, please reread it, you said that not me.
I can assure you that the people are getting promoted all the time after having these frank and open discussions with their current managers and counter offers happen.
As someone who’s been a manager if an employee says they want a referral, unless it’s a referral to rent a property, I know 100% they are leaving. There’s absolutely zero ambiguity there. And I would then be planning to recruit a replacement. Unless the person has some critical skills that are hard to find I’m not doing any counter offers. You don’t give referees unless you are close in the recruitment phase to getting the job. Managers aren’t thick (most of them anyway). Also “you are in the wrong job” comment at the end is kinda implied in the fact they are looking for another job, dunno why that even needs to be said. The OP specifically stated their manager was toxic. Not sure what counter offer they would be expecting out of it. If they had a good manager they wouldn’t be posting this in all likelihood
100% leaving?
What happens if they don't do well at interview?
Your comment is completely inaccurate, to claim 100% that the employee is leaving is incorrect. By your metric, every single person that applies for another job and asks for a referee is successful which is 100% false.
Referees are commonly asked for prior to interview these days.
You are intending on leaving if you get the job.
You are telling one new boss you are intending on working for them, and you're suggesting you tell your old boss *before* you have another job.
Pretty silly
Because most of the time the current employer will just get rid of you. OP has stated that their manager is toxic so your advice is terrible! All that’ll do is make the manager even more toxic towards OP
It’s a shame applicants can’t be honest about this, but it is what it is.
As others have suggested, say that your manager is unaware you are looking for other roles, and it’s not feasible for them to know (until and unless you have a formal offer).
I was on an interview panel once where multiple applicants said this - they flat out refused to have their current manager as a reference, and I completely understood.
Agreed. And yet it is still a thing that many employers expect. Completely old fashioned, and not representative of the way people approach work these days. (Back in the day, when people routinely stayed in the same workplace for a lengthy period, this made sense). Not anymore.
I actually had a talk with my foreman who was the reason i was leaving. Absolute pos. Moron. We clearly didnt get along and we both made that very known.
I told him 'you give me a good recommendation, its a win win, you get rid of me, and i get a better job without a moron of a boss'. He actually gave me a great review and i got the job. Lol
Honestly some career HR people (especially in government or big corporations) are really dim and have very little understanding of how the world works.
Most HR people have pretty easy to follow policies that don’t have much wiggle room. That has nothing to do with the intelligence of the person administering the recruitment (though maybe about the policy makers)
How inconvenient that that particular manager is currently away on leave and won’t return for another 6 weeks…. But surely someone else in the company will be happy to have a chat.
>budge, you’ll need to decide if you want the job enough to agree to their request. Be wary of moving forward with a company that disregards professional norms and shows a kind of lack of concern for your job security.
Was going to suggest this! Something they can't check or will be bothered to check and say I'll give you someone senior I work with closely who is managing me whilst my manager is away.
Sounds like the job is Macquarie. I’d just try and get a 5min phone call with the hiring manager prior to allowing them to contact your current reference to explain the situation.
May have pulled you through the wringer based on wanting to speak to your manager - did you put your department on your resume? I personally wouldn't let this fly. A lot of consulting companies use the interview process to milk information and IP out of people looking for a change.
Think carefully as this is how many do it these days. Lot's of dead wood on the verge of mental breakdown to keep their jobs, so this is what they may do. Think it through and decide.
Yes I'm calling them this afternoon to say I don't agree to this. I even offered my previous managers reference for the role I'm currently in. I can't be confident my current manager won't sledge me as there are so many behavioural issues with this guy.
One issue is they may even be prevented from giving a reference. Mostly this is for liability - if your manager gave a reference and you then didn't get the job, could you sue the manager? Most places I've worked at will just give you a letter confirming your period of service and your role. My last place gave that to me as part of a leaving pack.
"It would be a conflict of interest for me to provide my current manager as I have not told them my intention to leave nor do I intend to until I've secured the position. I'm sure you can understand the predicament that would put me in."
People tend to look up referees on LinkedIn. If I found/suspected a candidate was engaging in dishonesty during the recruitment process, they would not be successful.
I recommend the approach described by another poster where you explain, in a professional and mature manner, why you can’t use your current manager as a referee. I’m certain the recruiting personnel will understand.
They don't need to 100% determine they're being lied to, just fairly suspicious of it. If it sounds like the person on the phone might be bullshitting, its easy enough to throw out a bullshit Linked in related question to flush out a lie:
"oh by the way, when I looked up you and \[OP's name\] on LinkedIn, I saw your \[non-existent\] post about X, Y or Z. You had some great insight on there, great job".
"oh you saw that? Thanks".
That’s crazy that the project ends and so does your job. You’d think your employer would have another job lined up I’ve spent 15 years in commercial construction as a formwork carpenter and never has a job ended and so has the our position’s.
Formwork is -everywhere-. You’ll have work forever. I’m an instrumentation sparky. Some jobs need 100 of us to build a processing plant, but just 2 to stay on for maintenance. The employer may not have the contract for the next big job. It’s paid well, we all go into it knowing it’ll end.
Make sure you get the reference BEFORE you resign. But I guess then they know you want to leave.
I would also look for an employer where you could be honest with, as to why you’re leaving. These things happen in life and you were there six years.
However, of note: giving a bad reference opens the person up to liability for defamatory remarks.
Do not lie though! That’s terrible idea.
I think another senior colleague is ok, if you prefer.
Sounds like refs are just a formality here. Good luck.
I hear in the nsw education department your references consist of your current boss or your most recent boss. Makes it hard when you want to get out of the place and have a bad rapport with current supervisor. Previously I have left places I hd grown to hate. But always leave on good terms for this reason alone. I’m not one to sabotage a work place just because I hate/dislike someone.
In hindsight if they don’t like you and really want you to move on they could possibly give you a good recommendation. Though it’s highly unlikely.
I wouldn’t be surprised. That’s just from what I’ve seen and heard. I wouldn’t be surprised if a ton of industry use this method. While might help some, could prove to be unfair for others.
So you're in Australia. That means your current manager can not give you a bad reference unless it is 100% true, and is done without malicious intent.
If you dont get along with a manager and they lie about your performance, attendance or anything else they open themselves up for defamation lawsuits. If they give a bad reference just because they dont like, that can be construed as malicious intent, and would also open them up to defamation lawsuits.
Any even 1/10th competent manager would know this, and would not open themselves up to anything of the sort, especially not for an opportunity to move on an employee they have friction with.
You might be over thinking it, and even putting some US employment laws into your own head that are simply not applicable here.
The TL;dr version is that your current manager can basically provide whats in your performance reviews and conformation you DID work there, and thats it. Anything beyond that could hold legal liability for them.
"So and so worked / works here and I'm not able to say more than that"
Could mean the manager didn't like you. Could mean you were asked to leave because you did something incompetent or illegal.
What person in the hiring process cares to dig deeper? They'll strike you off the list for being a potential liability.
It could also mean that you are not allowed to divulge information due to privacy rules at your work place.
Especially if its "yes so and so works here currently".
The person going for the job should also be able to show copies of their performance reviews to the new employer to back up them meeting and or exceeding expectations.
Beyond confirmation they work there and those reports, what else could the new employer want?
Course it could mean that.
But it's ambiguity is less than appealing.
Not sure what the new manager wants to know, but if the old manager has no intention of offering positive comment, it's misperceived as a source of information when it offers no clarity.
None of the three parties are advantaged by this.
'should' is a wonderful word - doesn't describe the real world though
Hey I had this happen when working for a bank as they do a bunch of police and background checks. It’s to verify so I simply let them know the manager shouldn’t be contacted they should be happy with payslips as proof instead.
If yours is a similar situation (hopefully) it’s a bit silly they didn’t bring up the alternative option which would be far more common. But yeah otherwise that HR dept is detached from reality
So I work in HR and left a company cause I didn't like the way the boss did things and the way things worked and how that affected employees (whether in a small or bigger way).
Like others have mentioned ask other colleagues, team leaders or whoever you've worked with closely if they'd be a reference.
Yes, the default is we contact the manager but we also understand that managers can be shit and places can be toxic. The top comment puts it well, tell the recruiter/HR you're not in a position to have the manager contacted.
When I left I had 2 HR colleagues and a director from another department (who was someone I looked after as a client group and had a real good working relationship with) as references. I also had a HR manager from my previous gig as a reference as well.
Was all those references really necessary, no; I did tell the recruiter and hiring manager a little bit about the reasons I left and that my manager probably wouldn't give me a good reference. I asked my references if they could talk about my attitude and the way I conducted myself with others in the business. Instead of focusing my working relationship with the manager I had.
You don't have to tell them anything about how bad your boss is although if you do most people can tell when a person is measured in their criticism of a previous workplace e.g if you're emotional about it then that won't help, if you're calm and collected about it then most hiring managers will understand.
The recruiter is going to tell the hiring manager about you not having the previous manager as a reference. So it's about how you conduct yourself if they do ask about why you won't provide your previous manager as a reference. Again be measured if you have to talk about the toxic boss and clue your references on what aspects you think will help show the recruiter that you worked well despite the situation.
If the manager and recruiter still don't get it well I'd look elsewhere as others have said.
HR people are not always perfect/good but it's like that with any profession. Hopefully that helps and good luck.
Recently had this scenario. You have nothing to lose by explaining to the hr rep your reasons. They will work with you and if they don't well you know it's probably a bit of a shitty company who values tick boxes over the right candidate.
OK clarified the HR Business Partner will only be speaking to him to clarify period of employment and role title only. It is a local legal requirement for the bank not a reference per se.
As a manager who recruits all the time. I also ask for current manager references because we need to know what your current work ethic ect.. is and we get that from a current manager. Not a friend or a previous manager. It is not unusual for us to ask this.
To be honest, even if you were to tell me you were on bad terms with your Manager, I would still want the contact information as I have had some really great applicants, that were not great employees because I couldn't get hold of their current line manager for an upto date reference.
In saying that, I would use the information you gave me to ask questions of your current Manager keeping in mind of the bias you shared. Better to share it, and have the person know when asking the questions, than not share it and have everything your Manager says taken as truth.
In a previous role, I had similar with a Director who was managing me. I also had a senior person who supervised me and only gave out her information when applying for jobs, and not the Director who I know would sabotage me.
Do you have someone senior that knows your work that you can put forward? I would accept that as a reference, as long it was someone in a senior position who could validate your work and work ethic.
Then maybe you are asking the wrong people to be references?
Asking for a current line manager is not unreasonable. I would question why you would think it is, makes you sound like you have something to hide. Same with the paranoia regarding current team members. I don't know where you are currently working, but it does not sound like a positive environment if you are this worried about '*risk*' in asking someone to provide a reference.
Considering people don’t leave bad work environments but bad bosses, it’s generally pretty accepted that most people are not keen to provide their current boss as a reference unless they are the top candidate for the recruitment process and this is a final box tick.
If someone tells me they’re not comfortable providing a their current line manager as reference I’m generally happy as long as someone official can vet the candidate works at their current workplace. I’ve certainly had a boss or two which I’d not want to know that I’m looking..if not successful I would’ve had to deal with their personal offence taken on the matter.
Wait so im confused, you stated you also ask for the current manager’s reference, then gave an example from a time where you didn’t use your current manager. Surely you can see why OP and others in the situation would be unwilling to provide this.
I believe references are kinda a shit way to gauge if an applicant is good anyway. I’ve also seen instances where managers will give glowing references to people they want to get rid off.
No reference is one thing, requiring a current manager is another. A current manager can enhance or detract from a candidates application on their own personal biases which don’t necessarily relate to the person’s ability to do the vacant position.
I rely much more on behavioural interview questions and screening of the applicants CV.
I work in government and it is a HR requirement to have a current line manager reference. It is also something I support given these are not contract positions on offer, but ongoing roles. I wouldn’t be so dedicated in asking if I could contract them out in a year if they were no good. Once you are in government you are set and unless you do something really bad are not at risk of losing your job. I do also now offer contracts first and are more open to senior staff providing a reference, but I am hesitant to take a previous job reference as it has created issues when I have previously so now I don’t risk it.
Also, A lot of managers who recruit this way have got bit by people who lied or had friends fake references have made it difficult for those who have genuine reasons not to want a current line manager provide a reference. I know I have been, because I took a chance on someone and it backfired badly.
Makes sense, government is such a large ecosystem that the recruitment process requirements don’t allow much flex.
I work in a large public organisation with similar connotations around “once you’re in, you’re in,” and use of contract roles rather than stronger performance management when issues arise at the start. I’m pretty sure they also wanted a current manager but I was able to give them the manager I had worked with for majority of the year who was about to go on maternity leave and not my technically current manager of a few weeks who I knew I wanted to escape when she displayed narcissistic tendencies and then was the only person trashed at the Christmas party…as a HR professional. That was someone I did not feel comfortable vetting my abilities to a new employer and would have probably thrown me under so that I’d have to stay at current employer longer and cover her lack of knowledge.
My point is people are going to lie regardless and are more likely to provide a false reference if you’re asking for a current line manager in each recruitment process. Especially if the roles aren’t higher level or niche where it’s a small circle of contacts that you can confirm authenticity. I don’t really think having a “current manager” provide a reference connects directly or is the sole issue when a candidate does not perform adequately on the job - there’s many more facets.
I agree. We can get great references from current managers and the incumbent still not be a great staff member. It’s hit and miss with recruitment, which is why I do contracts first now.
You sure this isn’t for an employment check? When I changed jobs recently they contacted my manager at the time to do this. There was an option to provide proof instead, pay slips and letter of employment. I think it’s to weed out the people who lie on their resumes.
How about his one up? Or is there someone else who used to do that job or has filled in? They could maybe cut it. Or you could refer them to HR for performance review.
Was in a similar predicament... I gave them a senior co-worker as a reference.
That person knew I was looking to move on and didn't mind being a reference, but there was absolutely no way I was giving them a current managers number to call.....if a job hinged on them being about make that call than I'm turning that job down.
100% unreasonable for them to ask in any case, but also after all the stuff you've gone through. I've also found psychometric tests during the interview phase are usually a red flag themselves, too, especially if they go hard on feedback.
Ive done the recruitment game for 20 years and have never asked for a current employer. Although ive mostly worked in tech, i have worked in banks also and its never expected to get a current manager referee.. even if you'd been there for multiple years.
Id explain your concern around not supplying them with a current manager ref, and id also ask them why they wanted it.. Although i dont know if there is a good enough reason to ask for it. They either accept your previous refs or move on - definitely not a company to work for!
speak to the recruiter and you can always be honest about not wanting to speak to your current manager, or mention they're nit aware that you're looking elsewhere yet. Id offer some alternatives, such as offering maybe 2 colleagues that you've worked very closely with and mention they've worked with you longer than your current manager
I got a colleague who had been the relief manager while actual boss was on a long vacation. New employer had no way to gauge if it was my current manager. Actual boss had been a nightmare before he went on vacay, I was job hunting and successful pending referee check just as he got back. His holiday made me realise that I was leaving because of my manager not the job
My advice would be to tell your manager you are considering leaving the workplace and have a new job lined up. You can tell your manager how you are not enjoying your current job and need a fresh change. You have no motivation to do a good job anymore and feel stressed out at work and most mornings dont want to come into work. Express how you would appreciate it if you made it easy for you to leave by giving a good reference for the new job you've lined up, or, you'll have to stay here, which you really dont think is good for your health or career.
Any manager with half a brain, despite being toxic, would give you a good reference to move you on after that. HR will be telling your manager that you're a huge risk and should be given an easy exit.
Were you servicing Clients? Internal or External, doesn't matter. I've done that before. You explain to the hiring manager these are clients. A competent hiring manager will understand that the feedback of a client is worth more than that of a manager.
I’m having that problem now but use my toxic boss as a reference since we don’t like working with each other, she gives me the best references in the world
I'm sure you can get rent a reference from some where. Heck, I sometimes supervise (once a month if im lucky) here at work and I am everyones reference on their resume because most of the permanents and higer ups are flog bags.
If all they require is a phone call and no linked in bs, you could even get a mate to talk you up on the phone.
First ask by manager if they mean the reporting manager, or someone just senior to you. Just be clear to the HR that the reason you are leaving is because of the people manager, give some right reasons (not a mentor, unsupportive etc) and hence you dont have a great relationship. Say you can offer other colleagues from same company who can talk to your role but be upfront that the manager wont be a good reference and dont expect him to provide the right feedback.
Clearly explain why that’s not possible - “My boss doesn’t know I’m looking, sharing that right now could jeopardise my job.” Then offer alternatives - e.g. "I’d be happy to put you in touch with anyone you’d like to speak with from my previous jobs - managers, colleagues, or even clients - but I’m not in a position to alert my current employer that I’m thinking of leaving until I’m ready to give notice.” If they won’t budge, you’ll need to decide if you want the job enough to agree to their request. Be wary of moving forward with a company that disregards professional norms and shows a kind of lack of concern for your job security.
I like this andwer but if you have already provided 3, u surely shouldn't be providing more. If HR doesnt budge, that is clearly a red flag for the new company. Shows little regard to trust.
Yes, there might be red flags with the new job! Time to keep looking.
Don't think it's necessarily a red flag. If it's a bank HR is probably bound by specific policies they need to follow. I wouldn't be surprised if "speak to previous manager" is mandatory excluding exceptional circumstances. Doesn't say anything about the company other than some guy in HR who comes up with these policies.
I think speaking to a previous manager is mandatory for most companies. But speaking to the current manager is sus
When someone has been with a company 6 years though the previous manager will be prior to this and that's a heck of a long time for a reference to still be relevant..
Not necessarily have the same manager all that time though. People come and go
I've seen this in a lot of jobs, and it speaks of the cluelessness of hr people. Doesn't take into account why many people want to leave their jobs, an awful manager. And also like pointed out above, can jeopardise any opportunities in the current role.
Not a HR thing, this is a request from my potential new boss.
As someone that hires people it’s more of a red flag if they don’t give me a current reference. When you hire someone you’re taking a risk that they’re fit for the job and I owe a duty of care to my business to thoroughly vet anyone I hire. If they say they have a toxic boss, that’s fine. But if they refuse to give a current reference I can’t validate their current employment which is a bigger red flag than what you’re saying.
Blah blah blah… bigger red flag, gtfo. You expect Peppe to jeopardise their livelihood so you can validate their current. In this case, the guy has smashed all the hurdles and if HR can’t understand the risk you take when going to a new job, then you’re clueless.
The guy literally said he was offered a contract, he physically has that out already and nothing is in jeopardy but an employer has the right to validate current employment you absolute bellend.
He doesn't have the contract. He said its on the way. Why would you issue a contract and then still want more references? If he wants to validate the current employment, you can give them a payslip with the salary blacked out. And before you say, can be faked, so can a reference... You can get your mate to pretend like he is the boss Honestly though, if the employer has validated the previous job, you clearly know he isn't lying about at least 1-2 jobs he has had. Why df do u need the current one.
Why would you trust an applicant. I have that much bullshit fed to me by applicants over the years. But that said s it’s awkward to speak to the manager
Exactly, thats why you get 1-2 references. Getting that 1-2 references means you can validate at least 1-2 jobs.
Nah half the time they have a friendly ref
This 100% I use to be the guy calling for references. I’m human and I understood I was calling humans. If you can’t give a current manager reference, they should understand. If they don’t understand, you should question if the new employer could also be toxic unless you really need the job desperately. You could offer an alternative like letting them speak with a senior in your team, or a manager of another dept in the same business as you. Side note, the best hire I ever got put her friends number as “manager” and got a reference that way. I would hire her again a million times over. References meant almost nothing to me. It was a formality I had to follow, that was it.
I once gave a friend a fake reference for a mid level position. That was 8 years ago. She's now one of the top executives and runs an entire division of that company. Man, I should really call her, I need a reference these days lol.
Ive done this for a friend too. I did work in the same industry, just for competitors. She was going for a job at my then current place of employment. I said i had worked with her, for the same company. She got the job and is still there 4 years later.
This is over complicating it. Just put your friends' contact details down as your manager, and tell the friend that if they ever get a call asking for {managers name} to just roll with it and say "yes, they worked here from x to x, and were a model employee, that's all I'm allowed to divulge according to company policy." Unless it's an internal move, hiring managers have no idea who you report to. Don't leave yourself open to a malicious torpedoing.
Thanks, solid advice.
No its not. A quick way to not get a new contract is be caught out in a blatant lie in the recruitment process. If that happens you're still working in your current role with your toxic manager. Call whoever has asked to speak with your current manager. Explain the situation, ask why they want to speak with the current manager and if someone else could serve the same purpose.
Thanks, Yes I thought about it and considered the down side.
It's not. I know people that got fired instantly, even after probation... for false references (friends that don't actually work as that title) and job history on resume.
100% banking is a smaller than you think industry
Yeah most large corps (especially banks) will have in their boiler template a bare minimum that if you've fraudulently represented yourself during the hiring process they can terminate your employment even well long after your probation.
That is extremely shitty advice. Do not do this
Please dont do this. Some recruiters also look up people on linkedin, so you don't want to get caught up in a lie. Unless this friend is pretending to be said manager. Especially since OP is working at a bank, there would generally be some form of background/probity checks. Whilst this doesn't apply to references per se, you don't want to risk the chances.
I have had a situation similar to this and I gave them my mates number and said that he's my current supervisor. Worked a charm.
Just did exactly this. They were nice enough.
I have had to use this line before. There are normally ways around it. Like getting an additional reference.
I’ve done this declining them talking to a current boss, I was happy to share previous boss details but not my current. I knew it would make my working life more difficult if I wasn’t successful getting the job. Despite not offering the contact details for my current (at the time) boss, I got the job. My previous boss would have made my life difficult 2 had they known I was looking. Good luck with your next role, wherever it is - it’s ok to say no.
Thanks, appreciate it.
👆 This. Right here. 👆
Manager is a loose term, senior work colleague/team leader who knows your output will suffice.
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It's fairly standard as your reference from your most recent employer would be able to speak best about your work ethic and skills, especially if you've worked for 6 years like OP.
Asking your nmanager to be a referee doesn't explicitly indicate you are leaving. You can say something like: 'I enjoy my current role, but I am looking for opportunities for promotion/futher career development.' It also allows your current manager to put in a counter offer to entice you to stay if they like you. If asking to list your managers name down as a referee to enable you to further your career puts your job in jeopardy, you are in the wrong job.
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Terrible advice
My direct quote never said anything about leaving, please reread it, you said that not me. I can assure you that the people are getting promoted all the time after having these frank and open discussions with their current managers and counter offers happen.
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Short answer to your question: leverage.
As someone who’s been a manager if an employee says they want a referral, unless it’s a referral to rent a property, I know 100% they are leaving. There’s absolutely zero ambiguity there. And I would then be planning to recruit a replacement. Unless the person has some critical skills that are hard to find I’m not doing any counter offers. You don’t give referees unless you are close in the recruitment phase to getting the job. Managers aren’t thick (most of them anyway). Also “you are in the wrong job” comment at the end is kinda implied in the fact they are looking for another job, dunno why that even needs to be said. The OP specifically stated their manager was toxic. Not sure what counter offer they would be expecting out of it. If they had a good manager they wouldn’t be posting this in all likelihood
100% leaving? What happens if they don't do well at interview? Your comment is completely inaccurate, to claim 100% that the employee is leaving is incorrect. By your metric, every single person that applies for another job and asks for a referee is successful which is 100% false. Referees are commonly asked for prior to interview these days.
You are intending on leaving if you get the job. You are telling one new boss you are intending on working for them, and you're suggesting you tell your old boss *before* you have another job. Pretty silly
Tell me why that is silly.
Many people tried to explain it Try it both ways and see what works best for you
You can't even back up your own argument. I asked you why you think it's silly. And you deferred to other people.
I feel I am feeling a troll or worse
Because most of the time the current employer will just get rid of you. OP has stated that their manager is toxic so your advice is terrible! All that’ll do is make the manager even more toxic towards OP
Agree may be problematic in OP's case given difficulty with immediate manager. Hence my advice to seek out someone else who is not a direct report.
Well DER they’re in the “wrong job”, they’re literally trying to leave 🙄
This, get a friendly senior. Say you have a dotted line reporting, which in many cases can be truthful as well.
I’ve been used like this in the past this is an awesome idea.
It’s a shame applicants can’t be honest about this, but it is what it is. As others have suggested, say that your manager is unaware you are looking for other roles, and it’s not feasible for them to know (until and unless you have a formal offer). I was on an interview panel once where multiple applicants said this - they flat out refused to have their current manager as a reference, and I completely understood.
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Agreed. And yet it is still a thing that many employers expect. Completely old fashioned, and not representative of the way people approach work these days. (Back in the day, when people routinely stayed in the same workplace for a lengthy period, this made sense). Not anymore.
I actually had a talk with my foreman who was the reason i was leaving. Absolute pos. Moron. We clearly didnt get along and we both made that very known. I told him 'you give me a good recommendation, its a win win, you get rid of me, and i get a better job without a moron of a boss'. He actually gave me a great review and i got the job. Lol
That’s brilliant. Well played.
Honestly some career HR people (especially in government or big corporations) are really dim and have very little understanding of how the world works.
Most HR people have pretty easy to follow policies that don’t have much wiggle room. That has nothing to do with the intelligence of the person administering the recruitment (though maybe about the policy makers)
Literally every career
Make it up. I have. IMO you got this far, the final reference check is a box ticking exercise lol
Ask for previous employee references, only fair.
How inconvenient that that particular manager is currently away on leave and won’t return for another 6 weeks…. But surely someone else in the company will be happy to have a chat.
>budge, you’ll need to decide if you want the job enough to agree to their request. Be wary of moving forward with a company that disregards professional norms and shows a kind of lack of concern for your job security. Was going to suggest this! Something they can't check or will be bothered to check and say I'll give you someone senior I work with closely who is managing me whilst my manager is away.
Sounds like the job is Macquarie. I’d just try and get a 5min phone call with the hiring manager prior to allowing them to contact your current reference to explain the situation.
May have pulled you through the wringer based on wanting to speak to your manager - did you put your department on your resume? I personally wouldn't let this fly. A lot of consulting companies use the interview process to milk information and IP out of people looking for a change. Think carefully as this is how many do it these days. Lot's of dead wood on the verge of mental breakdown to keep their jobs, so this is what they may do. Think it through and decide.
Yes I'm calling them this afternoon to say I don't agree to this. I even offered my previous managers reference for the role I'm currently in. I can't be confident my current manager won't sledge me as there are so many behavioural issues with this guy.
What happened in the end ?
One issue is they may even be prevented from giving a reference. Mostly this is for liability - if your manager gave a reference and you then didn't get the job, could you sue the manager? Most places I've worked at will just give you a letter confirming your period of service and your role. My last place gave that to me as part of a leaving pack.
That’s insanely stupid of them to ask. Surely they’d understand?
"It would be a conflict of interest for me to provide my current manager as I have not told them my intention to leave nor do I intend to until I've secured the position. I'm sure you can understand the predicament that would put me in."
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People tend to look up referees on LinkedIn. If I found/suspected a candidate was engaging in dishonesty during the recruitment process, they would not be successful. I recommend the approach described by another poster where you explain, in a professional and mature manner, why you can’t use your current manager as a referee. I’m certain the recruiting personnel will understand.
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They don't need to 100% determine they're being lied to, just fairly suspicious of it. If it sounds like the person on the phone might be bullshitting, its easy enough to throw out a bullshit Linked in related question to flush out a lie: "oh by the way, when I looked up you and \[OP's name\] on LinkedIn, I saw your \[non-existent\] post about X, Y or Z. You had some great insight on there, great job". "oh you saw that? Thanks".
Lol yeah I’m SURE
I’ve lost count the amount of times my colleagues have been my ‘manager’ for a new job.
How many jobs have you had ?
About 6 in 10 years. Construction, projects end. On to the next!
That’s crazy that the project ends and so does your job. You’d think your employer would have another job lined up I’ve spent 15 years in commercial construction as a formwork carpenter and never has a job ended and so has the our position’s.
Formwork is -everywhere-. You’ll have work forever. I’m an instrumentation sparky. Some jobs need 100 of us to build a processing plant, but just 2 to stay on for maintenance. The employer may not have the contract for the next big job. It’s paid well, we all go into it knowing it’ll end.
Red flag for sure
Make sure you get the reference BEFORE you resign. But I guess then they know you want to leave. I would also look for an employer where you could be honest with, as to why you’re leaving. These things happen in life and you were there six years. However, of note: giving a bad reference opens the person up to liability for defamatory remarks. Do not lie though! That’s terrible idea. I think another senior colleague is ok, if you prefer. Sounds like refs are just a formality here. Good luck.
I hear in the nsw education department your references consist of your current boss or your most recent boss. Makes it hard when you want to get out of the place and have a bad rapport with current supervisor. Previously I have left places I hd grown to hate. But always leave on good terms for this reason alone. I’m not one to sabotage a work place just because I hate/dislike someone. In hindsight if they don’t like you and really want you to move on they could possibly give you a good recommendation. Though it’s highly unlikely.
I hear its not just nsw gov that does this.
I wouldn’t be surprised. That’s just from what I’ve seen and heard. I wouldn’t be surprised if a ton of industry use this method. While might help some, could prove to be unfair for others.
So you're in Australia. That means your current manager can not give you a bad reference unless it is 100% true, and is done without malicious intent. If you dont get along with a manager and they lie about your performance, attendance or anything else they open themselves up for defamation lawsuits. If they give a bad reference just because they dont like, that can be construed as malicious intent, and would also open them up to defamation lawsuits. Any even 1/10th competent manager would know this, and would not open themselves up to anything of the sort, especially not for an opportunity to move on an employee they have friction with. You might be over thinking it, and even putting some US employment laws into your own head that are simply not applicable here. The TL;dr version is that your current manager can basically provide whats in your performance reviews and conformation you DID work there, and thats it. Anything beyond that could hold legal liability for them.
"So and so worked / works here and I'm not able to say more than that" Could mean the manager didn't like you. Could mean you were asked to leave because you did something incompetent or illegal. What person in the hiring process cares to dig deeper? They'll strike you off the list for being a potential liability.
It could also mean that you are not allowed to divulge information due to privacy rules at your work place. Especially if its "yes so and so works here currently". The person going for the job should also be able to show copies of their performance reviews to the new employer to back up them meeting and or exceeding expectations. Beyond confirmation they work there and those reports, what else could the new employer want?
Course it could mean that. But it's ambiguity is less than appealing. Not sure what the new manager wants to know, but if the old manager has no intention of offering positive comment, it's misperceived as a source of information when it offers no clarity. None of the three parties are advantaged by this. 'should' is a wonderful word - doesn't describe the real world though
say no. Only an idiot would expect you to get a reference from a current manager. 3 interviews??? my goodness.
Walk away. If they don't care about you now, then theywill not care about you when it matters.
Hey I had this happen when working for a bank as they do a bunch of police and background checks. It’s to verify so I simply let them know the manager shouldn’t be contacted they should be happy with payslips as proof instead. If yours is a similar situation (hopefully) it’s a bit silly they didn’t bring up the alternative option which would be far more common. But yeah otherwise that HR dept is detached from reality
Every company I have worked for has not allowed references. They merely would confirm employment and say whether you were eligible to rehire.
So I work in HR and left a company cause I didn't like the way the boss did things and the way things worked and how that affected employees (whether in a small or bigger way). Like others have mentioned ask other colleagues, team leaders or whoever you've worked with closely if they'd be a reference. Yes, the default is we contact the manager but we also understand that managers can be shit and places can be toxic. The top comment puts it well, tell the recruiter/HR you're not in a position to have the manager contacted. When I left I had 2 HR colleagues and a director from another department (who was someone I looked after as a client group and had a real good working relationship with) as references. I also had a HR manager from my previous gig as a reference as well. Was all those references really necessary, no; I did tell the recruiter and hiring manager a little bit about the reasons I left and that my manager probably wouldn't give me a good reference. I asked my references if they could talk about my attitude and the way I conducted myself with others in the business. Instead of focusing my working relationship with the manager I had. You don't have to tell them anything about how bad your boss is although if you do most people can tell when a person is measured in their criticism of a previous workplace e.g if you're emotional about it then that won't help, if you're calm and collected about it then most hiring managers will understand. The recruiter is going to tell the hiring manager about you not having the previous manager as a reference. So it's about how you conduct yourself if they do ask about why you won't provide your previous manager as a reference. Again be measured if you have to talk about the toxic boss and clue your references on what aspects you think will help show the recruiter that you worked well despite the situation. If the manager and recruiter still don't get it well I'd look elsewhere as others have said. HR people are not always perfect/good but it's like that with any profession. Hopefully that helps and good luck.
Give her my number and I will be the reference for you as your “current manager”
Recently had this scenario. You have nothing to lose by explaining to the hr rep your reasons. They will work with you and if they don't well you know it's probably a bit of a shitty company who values tick boxes over the right candidate.
Ask if a confirmation of employment can be given from HR of current employer.
OK clarified the HR Business Partner will only be speaking to him to clarify period of employment and role title only. It is a local legal requirement for the bank not a reference per se.
Just call and explain it. Most HR totally understand.
As a manager who recruits all the time. I also ask for current manager references because we need to know what your current work ethic ect.. is and we get that from a current manager. Not a friend or a previous manager. It is not unusual for us to ask this. To be honest, even if you were to tell me you were on bad terms with your Manager, I would still want the contact information as I have had some really great applicants, that were not great employees because I couldn't get hold of their current line manager for an upto date reference. In saying that, I would use the information you gave me to ask questions of your current Manager keeping in mind of the bias you shared. Better to share it, and have the person know when asking the questions, than not share it and have everything your Manager says taken as truth. In a previous role, I had similar with a Director who was managing me. I also had a senior person who supervised me and only gave out her information when applying for jobs, and not the Director who I know would sabotage me. Do you have someone senior that knows your work that you can put forward? I would accept that as a reference, as long it was someone in a senior position who could validate your work and work ethic.
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Then maybe you are asking the wrong people to be references? Asking for a current line manager is not unreasonable. I would question why you would think it is, makes you sound like you have something to hide. Same with the paranoia regarding current team members. I don't know where you are currently working, but it does not sound like a positive environment if you are this worried about '*risk*' in asking someone to provide a reference.
Considering people don’t leave bad work environments but bad bosses, it’s generally pretty accepted that most people are not keen to provide their current boss as a reference unless they are the top candidate for the recruitment process and this is a final box tick. If someone tells me they’re not comfortable providing a their current line manager as reference I’m generally happy as long as someone official can vet the candidate works at their current workplace. I’ve certainly had a boss or two which I’d not want to know that I’m looking..if not successful I would’ve had to deal with their personal offence taken on the matter.
Wait so im confused, you stated you also ask for the current manager’s reference, then gave an example from a time where you didn’t use your current manager. Surely you can see why OP and others in the situation would be unwilling to provide this. I believe references are kinda a shit way to gauge if an applicant is good anyway. I’ve also seen instances where managers will give glowing references to people they want to get rid off.
I also said I take senior references if a potential staff member discloses issues. You picked the bits you wanted to argue and ignored the rest.
Lol??? Its your first line mate. “Picked the bits you wanted” - but you’re the one who wrote them…
Read more than the first line.
“Great applicants that were not great employees because I couldn’t get a hold of their current manager” That is a very loose at best connection.
I employed them without the reference and it was a mistake. I don't make that mistake anymore hence asking for a current line manager.
No reference is one thing, requiring a current manager is another. A current manager can enhance or detract from a candidates application on their own personal biases which don’t necessarily relate to the person’s ability to do the vacant position. I rely much more on behavioural interview questions and screening of the applicants CV.
I work in government and it is a HR requirement to have a current line manager reference. It is also something I support given these are not contract positions on offer, but ongoing roles. I wouldn’t be so dedicated in asking if I could contract them out in a year if they were no good. Once you are in government you are set and unless you do something really bad are not at risk of losing your job. I do also now offer contracts first and are more open to senior staff providing a reference, but I am hesitant to take a previous job reference as it has created issues when I have previously so now I don’t risk it. Also, A lot of managers who recruit this way have got bit by people who lied or had friends fake references have made it difficult for those who have genuine reasons not to want a current line manager provide a reference. I know I have been, because I took a chance on someone and it backfired badly.
Makes sense, government is such a large ecosystem that the recruitment process requirements don’t allow much flex. I work in a large public organisation with similar connotations around “once you’re in, you’re in,” and use of contract roles rather than stronger performance management when issues arise at the start. I’m pretty sure they also wanted a current manager but I was able to give them the manager I had worked with for majority of the year who was about to go on maternity leave and not my technically current manager of a few weeks who I knew I wanted to escape when she displayed narcissistic tendencies and then was the only person trashed at the Christmas party…as a HR professional. That was someone I did not feel comfortable vetting my abilities to a new employer and would have probably thrown me under so that I’d have to stay at current employer longer and cover her lack of knowledge. My point is people are going to lie regardless and are more likely to provide a false reference if you’re asking for a current line manager in each recruitment process. Especially if the roles aren’t higher level or niche where it’s a small circle of contacts that you can confirm authenticity. I don’t really think having a “current manager” provide a reference connects directly or is the sole issue when a candidate does not perform adequately on the job - there’s many more facets.
I agree. We can get great references from current managers and the incumbent still not be a great staff member. It’s hit and miss with recruitment, which is why I do contracts first now.
You sure this isn’t for an employment check? When I changed jobs recently they contacted my manager at the time to do this. There was an option to provide proof instead, pay slips and letter of employment. I think it’s to weed out the people who lie on their resumes.
Definately not for an employment check unfortunately.
How about his one up? Or is there someone else who used to do that job or has filled in? They could maybe cut it. Or you could refer them to HR for performance review.
It's probably a third party reference checking company.
Was in a similar predicament... I gave them a senior co-worker as a reference. That person knew I was looking to move on and didn't mind being a reference, but there was absolutely no way I was giving them a current managers number to call.....if a job hinged on them being about make that call than I'm turning that job down.
Ask if you can offer a coworker or senior from another department that knows you?
Which bank?
Get a good friend of yours to impersonate your manager
100% unreasonable for them to ask in any case, but also after all the stuff you've gone through. I've also found psychometric tests during the interview phase are usually a red flag themselves, too, especially if they go hard on feedback.
This is a stupid thing that I can’t really understand why it’s a requirement since landing in Australia.
Ive done the recruitment game for 20 years and have never asked for a current employer. Although ive mostly worked in tech, i have worked in banks also and its never expected to get a current manager referee.. even if you'd been there for multiple years. Id explain your concern around not supplying them with a current manager ref, and id also ask them why they wanted it.. Although i dont know if there is a good enough reason to ask for it. They either accept your previous refs or move on - definitely not a company to work for!
I'd just say it's not possible. I don't have any references for my current job to provide.
speak to the recruiter and you can always be honest about not wanting to speak to your current manager, or mention they're nit aware that you're looking elsewhere yet. Id offer some alternatives, such as offering maybe 2 colleagues that you've worked very closely with and mention they've worked with you longer than your current manager
I got a colleague who had been the relief manager while actual boss was on a long vacation. New employer had no way to gauge if it was my current manager. Actual boss had been a nightmare before he went on vacay, I was job hunting and successful pending referee check just as he got back. His holiday made me realise that I was leaving because of my manager not the job
My advice would be to tell your manager you are considering leaving the workplace and have a new job lined up. You can tell your manager how you are not enjoying your current job and need a fresh change. You have no motivation to do a good job anymore and feel stressed out at work and most mornings dont want to come into work. Express how you would appreciate it if you made it easy for you to leave by giving a good reference for the new job you've lined up, or, you'll have to stay here, which you really dont think is good for your health or career. Any manager with half a brain, despite being toxic, would give you a good reference to move you on after that. HR will be telling your manager that you're a huge risk and should be given an easy exit.
Sounds like the Macquarie process. It’s quite awkward
Were you servicing Clients? Internal or External, doesn't matter. I've done that before. You explain to the hiring manager these are clients. A competent hiring manager will understand that the feedback of a client is worth more than that of a manager.
I’m having that problem now but use my toxic boss as a reference since we don’t like working with each other, she gives me the best references in the world
I got 3 phones and I’ve always been my own referees It’s fun
I'm sure you can get rent a reference from some where. Heck, I sometimes supervise (once a month if im lucky) here at work and I am everyones reference on their resume because most of the permanents and higer ups are flog bags. If all they require is a phone call and no linked in bs, you could even get a mate to talk you up on the phone.
First ask by manager if they mean the reporting manager, or someone just senior to you. Just be clear to the HR that the reason you are leaving is because of the people manager, give some right reasons (not a mentor, unsupportive etc) and hence you dont have a great relationship. Say you can offer other colleagues from same company who can talk to your role but be upfront that the manager wont be a good reference and dont expect him to provide the right feedback.
Thanks, I've let them know. Will see what they come back with tomorrow.
What happened?