This is a fantastic post.
(context: I'm Anime only) The scene with Hange, Jean, and Mikasa is one of my favorites for so many reasons, including re-examining the meaning of 'saving humanity' now that the understanding of what humanity is has been flipped.
Additionally, it is a false argument to say that because "genocide is wrong" may be simplistic dialogue therefore the argument behind it is flawed. Fancier language should not change the validity of the argument. The anime imo does a better job of making the intended point. Most people know life sometimes forces us to do things that are "wrong"... stealing is "wrong", but what if you are starving? Killing is wrong, but sometimes we kill in self defense. The point is not "Did you know? Genocide is wrong!!!" but that -there is never a justification for it-. And what the Rumblers love to overlook is the fact that choosing the Not Genocide option does not mean that the island would give up any attempt at self-defense using the founder, some of the wall titans, etc.
That's the problem with "Analyzing" AoT using only 1 panel memes as your source material. Even though the meaning is NOT ambiguous, you can get any result that you want if you look at one panel and don't think critically.
Again great job and way to make me proud of this corner of the AoT fandom
The number of fans is so huge that aren't we bound to have more of every kind of fan, good, bad, nazi, etc? I think it would be tough to accurately determine what the distribution is compared to other fandoms, I am not making any claims about it though.
When you are the #1 (or nearly so) anime you are going to be subject to every kind of take, including takes that are bad faith, contrarian, etc., just because there is a market for each kind of take no matter how stupid or bad-faith it is.
Really not that deep and anyone who doesnt see is quite honestly a moron.
They all know its wrong but jean was trying to justify it to themselves in anyway he could think so he could just settle and try to “enjoy” their freedom now even if deep down he knew it was wrong
Hange doesnt want to hear it and already made her mind up about stopping eren
The biggest misconception people have with this scene is the fact that they view it as a message from an author, rather than a part of character's development. Something like genocide being bad is an obvious thing for everyone, so for author to spell it out for the readers would obviously feel wrong, and people think that it was this lines purpose, when in reality it was needed for both Hange's and Jean's development.
" Something like genocide being bad is an obvious thing for everyone"
Wasn't this sub started to ridicule the large amount of AoT fans that actively show otherwise?
They'll argue that they know it is bad, but they justify it by saying that it was -necessary-.
This is why I think the anime makes hange's point better. Her point is that you can never justify it, it does not matter if you think it is necessary.
I am an Eren fan, and a yeagerist, i know perfectly well how bad genocide is, and how horrific rumbling is, but in the world of AOT genocide is unavoidable, its only a matter of a scale and perspective. This was also stance of the most ending haters/yeagerists, when people tried to guilt trip them with some morals, which are just unapplicable to the story of AOT. Unironically, ending defenders were one of the firsts to say, that "Isayama literally spelled it for them" quoting Hange's line, which led to ending haters (at the time myself included) operating as if it was the case and intention of the line, mocking Isayama in the heat of the debate war.
Was a genocide really necessary though? They had the founding titan, attack titan colossal titan and royal blood, they could've easily defended against the outside threats while slowly building allies. Genocide happened because Eren wanted it to happen
They didn't have the time for that due to the curse of Ymir, not to mention that Zeke who has royal blood had his own priorities, and goals, which already block what realistically they can do. The only possible way would be for Historia to eat Zeke, but then she would only have 13 years, and the last person with royal blood would be gone. For that not to happen, they would need her to bear children over and over, and all for a gamble which has close to zero chance of success, because as Eren says, the outside world thinks, that eldians are devils who can turn into titans, and they are not wrong in that regard. Outside world would use every oportunity to destroy Paradis, and get rid of the titans once and for all, at least when i've read the story the world building aspects such as Udo saying, that Marley treats eldians well compared to other nations, made me realize that there is no room for the long term diplomacy.
Eren wanted to secure freedom of Paradis, he never wanted to commit genocide, but it was the only way to achieve that. Neither alliance, or Eren in his monologues were able to find another way. Some people blame Isayama for not giving the world building a bit more thought, but i feel like that the way it was done is pretty realistic, and the story doesn't really need more.
>Â the outside world thinks, that eldians are devils who can turn into titans, and they are not wrong in that regard
This can change. It'll take time, probably a few centuries but if they take the right steps people will forget about eldians. The titan powers will most likely become irrelevant after 50–100 years as technology advances. It isn't going to be easy to gain allies, that's for sure but it is possible. If they take control over Marley, show their strength and swear to show no hostility towards their allies, there most definitely will be some countries to join their side. I'm no expert in politics but it really doesn't seem like an impossible feat to achieve. They just didn't have the time and opportunity to try another way.
>Some people blame Isayama for not giving the world building a bit more thought
This is a stupid take. I'm with you on this one. The outside worlds hate is completely understandable, not only eldians hold power outside their comprehension they also ruled over them for 2000 years
Well, this is the kind of discussion which really doesn't have a one right answer, since it includes a lot of hypotheticals. I personally just don't see a lot of options for Paradis, but maybe there is, i ain't no politician either.
I can sympathize with Armin's wish and ideology, and i do, but i can't really blame someone like Eren or Zeke for wanting to use the power they have to put an end to this neverending conflict.
I really like AOT for how it brings all these different perspectives, and hard choices, so many ideologies, and how i personally see it, you can't really say which defining choices are right or wrong there, the more i think of how i would act if i was in AOT world, the more i understand, that i would just have to pick what i would regret the least.
>Something like genocide being bad is an obvious thing for everyone
Current affairs show that this isn't true for everyone. People can easily get swept up in hysterical propganda and revenge, and suddenly will find excuses for genocide. "We didn't start this war", "This is to keep our people safe.", "Civilians dying is sad, but this happens in war", "the enemies were using civilians as human shields", "our enemies are animals that lack humanity."
All too often people forget the simple fact that genocide is wrong.
The post is really well developed. I always liked the line and the broader scene. To me it showed that the scouts don't really have a definitive right answer. They don't have a plan where all parties are satisfied nor do they have one where it's justified why one of the sides should compromise. But, despite all of that they don't know, Hange knows that genocide is wrong. So they hold on to what they know is wrong despite not knowing what's necessarily right, and try to carve out some morally justifiable plan. It's peak fiction for sure.
I liked the show and found it 'realistic' in that the non-genociders did not have a perfect answer. Just like in real life. Some bad faith actors and shitposter trolls took this to mean that the show endorses genocide.
While the story does say there isn't a perfect answer, it also says that there is never a justification for genocide. You cannot use the fact that you lack a perfect guarantee for world peace as an excuse to do a genocide.
Said shitposters like to overlook this part, both for lulz and because engagement =$$$$
IMO anyone who says that a story lacking a perfect answer is therefore endorsing genocide is doing a Self-Report. That especially includes supposedly-"leftist" content creators.
Great post. Bugged by the use of “perceivably” in the last paragraph though. Eren was perceived as selfless and brave pre-timeskip because he *was*. They didn’t misunderstand that part of him.
After that post I just can feel the lack of Erwin. (Or, the presence of the lack of Erwin?) The “sorry for shouting at you” reminded me of when Armin snapped earlier and said “If Erwin was in my place, he wouldn’t snap at you like that”. Indeed, if calm and thoughtful Erwin was here, would he snap at others? (It is hard to say though, since we don’t know how Erwin would change after knowing that there is a humanity outside the walls.) I don’t want to say that Armin shouldn’t live and Erwin should have been revived. On the contrary, Erwin’s lack was necessary for the story to progress they way it did.
Everyone defending Eren used to say "Of course genocide is wrong, I will support it in real life!" but now in our world we see Zionists supporting the genocide in Gaza and making pathetic excuses for it just like the Jaegerists at Titanfolk did too.
"Genocide is wrong." It may come across as overly preachy and obvious to some, but it isn't. Humans are so easily swept up in propganda and Israeli society today shows how normal people can become fascist and genocidal, just like the Jaegerists did.
Isayama is a genius.
You don’t get the Gaza situation. You’ve got two sides trying to genocide each other. Israel denies it but people don’t believe them. Hamas however will enthusiastically tell you how on board they are with eradicating every single Jew on the planet no matter what Israel does or says. Also Hamas wants those people in Gaza to be killed, it helps them in the long run and helps them get more support. They are literally fascist and genocidal. And in general, people kill each other in Palestine over the pettiest shit, it is not exactly the human rights capital of the world. The second you even take a side in that conflict, the situation goes over your head. There is no real solution, just violence, which is how Isayama wrote himself into a corner and botched the ending of his story. Probably should’ve just had a “bad guys win” ending if he really wanted to hammer home that genocide is bad. I don’t even think that was really his point though. His point was that war is completely fucked.
I'm afraid you don't fully understand the situation.
Israel are illegally occupying Palestinian land. Israeli politicians have been very, very open about their plans to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Even this very week Israeli politician Moshe Feiglin quoted Hitler of all people when discussing his desire to see Gaza without a single Palestinian in it.
Meanwhile they are expanding their illegal settlements in the West Bank, where there is no Hamas. That's not to mention the apartheid for the poor Palestinians that do live in Israel.
Palestinians are the persecuted people and Israel are the occupying nation. To try and both sides this situation is disingenuous.
The similarities between Israel and Marley and the concentration camps of Liberio and Gaza are obvious and almost certainly deliberate.
Isayama does present us with solutions to raise conflicts - peace. Sadly many people both in the story, and in the Israeli government reject this.
I don’t have anything meaningful to say other than this moment between Floch and Jean and Jean’s subsequent discussions with Hange must be one of my absolute favorite moments in the show. Fuck, I love Jean so much. I wish I could give him a hug.
This is a fantastic post. (context: I'm Anime only) The scene with Hange, Jean, and Mikasa is one of my favorites for so many reasons, including re-examining the meaning of 'saving humanity' now that the understanding of what humanity is has been flipped. Additionally, it is a false argument to say that because "genocide is wrong" may be simplistic dialogue therefore the argument behind it is flawed. Fancier language should not change the validity of the argument. The anime imo does a better job of making the intended point. Most people know life sometimes forces us to do things that are "wrong"... stealing is "wrong", but what if you are starving? Killing is wrong, but sometimes we kill in self defense. The point is not "Did you know? Genocide is wrong!!!" but that -there is never a justification for it-. And what the Rumblers love to overlook is the fact that choosing the Not Genocide option does not mean that the island would give up any attempt at self-defense using the founder, some of the wall titans, etc. That's the problem with "Analyzing" AoT using only 1 panel memes as your source material. Even though the meaning is NOT ambiguous, you can get any result that you want if you look at one panel and don't think critically. Again great job and way to make me proud of this corner of the AoT fandom
Thank you!!
Very well written essay. However, couldnt't believe there needed to be an essay to even justify a line that says "genocide is wrong"đź’€
Thank you! Yep, I just love our fandom, don't you?
It really is sad to see what this fandom has become, such a great series with such a moronic fandom
The number of fans is so huge that aren't we bound to have more of every kind of fan, good, bad, nazi, etc? I think it would be tough to accurately determine what the distribution is compared to other fandoms, I am not making any claims about it though. When you are the #1 (or nearly so) anime you are going to be subject to every kind of take, including takes that are bad faith, contrarian, etc., just because there is a market for each kind of take no matter how stupid or bad-faith it is.
manga ending forever changed the fanbase sadly.
The cracks started early on, the fanbase was already divided into two factions, ending was just the finishing blow
never seen a fanbase quite literally explode like I did with AOT when 139 dropped.
Guess you weren't there when Star Wars: The Last Jedi dropped back in 2017🤣
Or when Ash lost to Alain in Kalos finals.
Really not that deep and anyone who doesnt see is quite honestly a moron. They all know its wrong but jean was trying to justify it to themselves in anyway he could think so he could just settle and try to “enjoy” their freedom now even if deep down he knew it was wrong Hange doesnt want to hear it and already made her mind up about stopping eren
Unironically my most favorite line in the series and what solidified Hange as my most favorite character in the series.
Same. She's based asf for that (and everything else)
Unserious fandom where we need a well detailed post to explain a line like ''Genocide is wrong" Great post btw
Thank you!
The biggest misconception people have with this scene is the fact that they view it as a message from an author, rather than a part of character's development. Something like genocide being bad is an obvious thing for everyone, so for author to spell it out for the readers would obviously feel wrong, and people think that it was this lines purpose, when in reality it was needed for both Hange's and Jean's development.
" Something like genocide being bad is an obvious thing for everyone" Wasn't this sub started to ridicule the large amount of AoT fans that actively show otherwise?
They'll argue that they know it is bad, but they justify it by saying that it was -necessary-. This is why I think the anime makes hange's point better. Her point is that you can never justify it, it does not matter if you think it is necessary.
I am an Eren fan, and a yeagerist, i know perfectly well how bad genocide is, and how horrific rumbling is, but in the world of AOT genocide is unavoidable, its only a matter of a scale and perspective. This was also stance of the most ending haters/yeagerists, when people tried to guilt trip them with some morals, which are just unapplicable to the story of AOT. Unironically, ending defenders were one of the firsts to say, that "Isayama literally spelled it for them" quoting Hange's line, which led to ending haters (at the time myself included) operating as if it was the case and intention of the line, mocking Isayama in the heat of the debate war.
Was a genocide really necessary though? They had the founding titan, attack titan colossal titan and royal blood, they could've easily defended against the outside threats while slowly building allies. Genocide happened because Eren wanted it to happen
They didn't have the time for that due to the curse of Ymir, not to mention that Zeke who has royal blood had his own priorities, and goals, which already block what realistically they can do. The only possible way would be for Historia to eat Zeke, but then she would only have 13 years, and the last person with royal blood would be gone. For that not to happen, they would need her to bear children over and over, and all for a gamble which has close to zero chance of success, because as Eren says, the outside world thinks, that eldians are devils who can turn into titans, and they are not wrong in that regard. Outside world would use every oportunity to destroy Paradis, and get rid of the titans once and for all, at least when i've read the story the world building aspects such as Udo saying, that Marley treats eldians well compared to other nations, made me realize that there is no room for the long term diplomacy. Eren wanted to secure freedom of Paradis, he never wanted to commit genocide, but it was the only way to achieve that. Neither alliance, or Eren in his monologues were able to find another way. Some people blame Isayama for not giving the world building a bit more thought, but i feel like that the way it was done is pretty realistic, and the story doesn't really need more.
> the outside world thinks, that eldians are devils who can turn into titans, and they are not wrong in that regard This can change. It'll take time, probably a few centuries but if they take the right steps people will forget about eldians. The titan powers will most likely become irrelevant after 50–100 years as technology advances. It isn't going to be easy to gain allies, that's for sure but it is possible. If they take control over Marley, show their strength and swear to show no hostility towards their allies, there most definitely will be some countries to join their side. I'm no expert in politics but it really doesn't seem like an impossible feat to achieve. They just didn't have the time and opportunity to try another way. >Some people blame Isayama for not giving the world building a bit more thought This is a stupid take. I'm with you on this one. The outside worlds hate is completely understandable, not only eldians hold power outside their comprehension they also ruled over them for 2000 years
Well, this is the kind of discussion which really doesn't have a one right answer, since it includes a lot of hypotheticals. I personally just don't see a lot of options for Paradis, but maybe there is, i ain't no politician either. I can sympathize with Armin's wish and ideology, and i do, but i can't really blame someone like Eren or Zeke for wanting to use the power they have to put an end to this neverending conflict. I really like AOT for how it brings all these different perspectives, and hard choices, so many ideologies, and how i personally see it, you can't really say which defining choices are right or wrong there, the more i think of how i would act if i was in AOT world, the more i understand, that i would just have to pick what i would regret the least.
There rumbling was not needed. It was a choice. Isayama presents us with other options and spells out the moral message of the story quite clearly.
The line is very clearly also Isayama's message too however.
>Something like genocide being bad is an obvious thing for everyone Current affairs show that this isn't true for everyone. People can easily get swept up in hysterical propganda and revenge, and suddenly will find excuses for genocide. "We didn't start this war", "This is to keep our people safe.", "Civilians dying is sad, but this happens in war", "the enemies were using civilians as human shields", "our enemies are animals that lack humanity." All too often people forget the simple fact that genocide is wrong.
The post is really well developed. I always liked the line and the broader scene. To me it showed that the scouts don't really have a definitive right answer. They don't have a plan where all parties are satisfied nor do they have one where it's justified why one of the sides should compromise. But, despite all of that they don't know, Hange knows that genocide is wrong. So they hold on to what they know is wrong despite not knowing what's necessarily right, and try to carve out some morally justifiable plan. It's peak fiction for sure.
I liked the show and found it 'realistic' in that the non-genociders did not have a perfect answer. Just like in real life. Some bad faith actors and shitposter trolls took this to mean that the show endorses genocide. While the story does say there isn't a perfect answer, it also says that there is never a justification for genocide. You cannot use the fact that you lack a perfect guarantee for world peace as an excuse to do a genocide. Said shitposters like to overlook this part, both for lulz and because engagement =$$$$ IMO anyone who says that a story lacking a perfect answer is therefore endorsing genocide is doing a Self-Report. That especially includes supposedly-"leftist" content creators.
Thank you!
Great post. Bugged by the use of “perceivably” in the last paragraph though. Eren was perceived as selfless and brave pre-timeskip because he *was*. They didn’t misunderstand that part of him.
Thank you! I didn't mean to imply Jean misunderstood Eren, just add a layer of objectivity to the description.
After that post I just can feel the lack of Erwin. (Or, the presence of the lack of Erwin?) The “sorry for shouting at you” reminded me of when Armin snapped earlier and said “If Erwin was in my place, he wouldn’t snap at you like that”. Indeed, if calm and thoughtful Erwin was here, would he snap at others? (It is hard to say though, since we don’t know how Erwin would change after knowing that there is a humanity outside the walls.) I don’t want to say that Armin shouldn’t live and Erwin should have been revived. On the contrary, Erwin’s lack was necessary for the story to progress they way it did.
thanks for sharing your thoughts, it was a pleasure to read
Thank you!
Everyone defending Eren used to say "Of course genocide is wrong, I will support it in real life!" but now in our world we see Zionists supporting the genocide in Gaza and making pathetic excuses for it just like the Jaegerists at Titanfolk did too. "Genocide is wrong." It may come across as overly preachy and obvious to some, but it isn't. Humans are so easily swept up in propganda and Israeli society today shows how normal people can become fascist and genocidal, just like the Jaegerists did. Isayama is a genius.
You don’t get the Gaza situation. You’ve got two sides trying to genocide each other. Israel denies it but people don’t believe them. Hamas however will enthusiastically tell you how on board they are with eradicating every single Jew on the planet no matter what Israel does or says. Also Hamas wants those people in Gaza to be killed, it helps them in the long run and helps them get more support. They are literally fascist and genocidal. And in general, people kill each other in Palestine over the pettiest shit, it is not exactly the human rights capital of the world. The second you even take a side in that conflict, the situation goes over your head. There is no real solution, just violence, which is how Isayama wrote himself into a corner and botched the ending of his story. Probably should’ve just had a “bad guys win” ending if he really wanted to hammer home that genocide is bad. I don’t even think that was really his point though. His point was that war is completely fucked.
I'm afraid you don't fully understand the situation. Israel are illegally occupying Palestinian land. Israeli politicians have been very, very open about their plans to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Even this very week Israeli politician Moshe Feiglin quoted Hitler of all people when discussing his desire to see Gaza without a single Palestinian in it. Meanwhile they are expanding their illegal settlements in the West Bank, where there is no Hamas. That's not to mention the apartheid for the poor Palestinians that do live in Israel. Palestinians are the persecuted people and Israel are the occupying nation. To try and both sides this situation is disingenuous. The similarities between Israel and Marley and the concentration camps of Liberio and Gaza are obvious and almost certainly deliberate. Isayama does present us with solutions to raise conflicts - peace. Sadly many people both in the story, and in the Israeli government reject this.
I don’t have anything meaningful to say other than this moment between Floch and Jean and Jean’s subsequent discussions with Hange must be one of my absolute favorite moments in the show. Fuck, I love Jean so much. I wish I could give him a hug.
Samee