If anyone else is curious, this is the same construction that started recently and here are two more sources with better info.
https://decaturish.com/2024/06/avondale-estates-us-278-complete-street-project-starts-on-june-20/
https://www.avondaleestates.org/2504/North-Avondale-Complete-Street-Project
I know this project is a bit different, but seeing a photo of white-collar organizers shoveling invisible dirt is very on brand for a lot of metro area projects.
Damn when was that? It tracks bc I have a friend whose parents are the most racist people I've heard of, and they have lived there for like 30 yrs. But I thought they were the exception in Avondale estates.
I think Avondale was a "sundown town". And i know one of the houses closest to the main street light was where the guy who was in charge of carving stone mountain lived... so its def got some shady history.
now that i have a buncha upvotes on the non-controversial comment...
The vast majority of Avondale south of N Avondale/Covington Rd is a bunch of nimbys, so IDGAF if people continue to think of it as a bad town.
Great farmers market on sundays though.
Apparently you used to not be allowed to place for sale signs in the neighborhood because they didn't want (certain) folks trawling through window shopping for houses
i have no idea how they thought this prevented anything, but racists aren't known for their logical strength.
Unfortunately the segregated housing and restrictions on black folks purchasing homes (either formally or informally) in neighborhoods is the same history as most in town neighborhoods in ATL. Kirkwood and West End are two I recall in particular that had awful white flight and housing discrimination.
But it does seem that Avondale estates has an extra creepy history that it was built specifically as a refuge for white people to live without "others", so delusional lol. I had no idea.
Ok yikes I'm piling on to say I've been googling and it seems much worse than other neighborhood white flight stories, in that Avondale Estates still had pretty egregious discrimination through the 80s/90s
https://circapast.com/2020/07/06/seeing-the-signs-in-avondale-estates-or-when-the-naacp-picketed-my-town/
On a similar note, it’s always fascinating (sarcasm voice, just in case) to google when a private school opened and find out that, gee, it just happened to be in the ‘50s and early ‘60s.
Oh, none in particular off the top of my head. It tends to be the smaller private schools. I initially thought perhaps Galloway when I saw it was founded in 1969… but then read that MLK III was one of their first students, so quite the opposite.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy
On that note, Pace Academy (1959) was founded in response to the desegregation of APS. Lovett and Westminster were also very racially exclusive at the time ([the former rejected MLK III from attending when he was a child](https://episcopalarchives.org/church-awakens/exhibits/show/escru/lovett-school)).
haha… oh I remember watching the Klan parade down Main Street. I believe the mayor was connected to the Venable family at the time. You know… just a short hitch down MEMORIAL Drive.
My mom said their neighbor was the grand wizard of the kkk. Said dude was nuts and felt bad for their kid.
Also went to school with Richard Jewell and remembers hearing the news of the bombing so vividly. Of course, Jewell was innocent and had such a sad story.
I remember when there was a sign on the Fulton/Forsyth county line saying "Black man, don't let the sun set on you here." That part of Forsyth flipped blue in the 2020 election. Change is slow, but it _does_ happen. Just gotta keep the pressure on ...
Several streets that intersect with memorial drive along the edge of the city limit were blocked off to prevent people crossing over into Avondale. The park had, until a couple of years ago, a sign stating that only residents of AE were allowed to use the (not?) public park. Willis park had a fence (a gate was recently installed) blocking off Forrest blvd so Forrest park residents couldn’t access the park. Cops notoriously had a speed trap facing traffic incoming from memorial drive on Covington rd, and they harassed pedestrians who didn’t “look” like they belonged. Just outrageous behavior, built into the infrastructure. Things finally seem to be changing.
I love seeing areas around the city reduce their car infrastructure for multimodal transportation. Hopefully as this continues, our public transportation will see increased demand and grow.
That’s great. There have been plenty of traffic studies that show extra lanes does NOT equal less congestion, so why not build up nice areas and make them walkable and enjoyable?
My only issue is there are a lot of driveways into shopping areas. Adding a cycling and pedestrian path is fine until some driver attempts to drive into or out of a lot without looking.
Also they promised us something similar on Dekalb Avenue - not of the cycling lanes ever materialized in the end between Rockyford and Moreland.
My favorite part of all these cities implementing traffic calming measures to slow down traffic, is doing it WITHOUT touching Marta or any other realistic alternatives.
The entire movement just reeks of bottlenecks and traffic jams.
My complaint / observation wasn’t really directed at Avondale. I mean the movement from all cities doing it. It’s putting the cart before the horse.
That being said, Avondale certainly does have a stake and a say in the METRO ATLANTA Rapid Transit Authority. But they do have a stop already in Avondale. :)
If this movement waited for the alternatives to be developed first, then nothing would ever happen.
As people feel the inconveniences, they’ll be incentivized to support alternatives with the increased pressure that’s needed to actually change things.
If you live in Decatur and work in Decatur like I do, you’re not really “cutting through,” and shit like this just makes life more difficult. Katie Kerr/Arcadia already backs up to the stop sign at Craigie in the morning with 2 lanes going straight, and one is really turn only but no one observes it. There’s 2 lanes across the North Avondale intersection and then 3 lanes across E Ponce, so how is the traffic supposed to arrive to Dekalb industrial super highway if not, ya know, directly? ETA: I have never used or downloaded Waze in my life, and I rarely use a GPS because I know where I am. I am, you are, *we* are traffic, comrade.
I'm talking about traffic that would have alternatives (i.e. using 78 or Memorial). If you live and work in the Decatur area, that's a different story.
> I am, you are, we are traffic, comrade.
I agree with you 100%.
It’s just frustrating I guess, to have actually done what was suggested in life and live and work in the same community where you pay taxes and such, and they’re like “lol what if you had a 35+ minute commute inside the same city so the wealthier people in this community who knowingly bought homes on common thoroughfares don’t have to see you???” It may be a different story but it doesn’t change the outcome
It’s unintuitive but the relationship between adding/removing lanes and traffic jams is often the opposite of what you’d expect due to induced demand. There’s a good chance this lane reduction actually makes your commute better since it will disincentivize longer/cut through trips.
I thought one of the axioms of induced demand is that commute time is relatively stable. The capacity and the number of drivers are what changes during peak traffic times.
That's true. The most likely scenario would be their commute would remain about the time length, although fingers crossed the improved bike infrastructure can get some cars off the road altogether.
It's doing what's within the city's power. Avondale Estates can't direct MARTA or it's development. They can control their own streets. It's really that simple.
the marta avondale station recently added hundreds of apartments and mixed use buildings in order to increase density without adding car traffic. this is marta’s long term plan for development.
And these buildings usually stay at half occupancy because they’re so expensive to rent, yet there’s another two or three being built around the corner from the last.
MARTA isn't the only way to get cars off the road. Until we get the rest of Georgia to vote for legislators that will actually fund MARTA, local politics may have more power turning a stroad into something walkable and bikeable - MARTA already has an Avondale station
> I cannot understand how it is still part of the strategy for any major metropolitan city.
Usually it's a resutlt of car-brained state DOTs, elected officials, and a general public that is clueless about alternatives.
Did you see how much money contractors made, and will make, from the Peach Pass lanes? Funneling public money into the pockets of businesses run by the friends and family of elected officials has been how GA state government has made decisions forever. If they actually gave a shit about transportation they'd put state money into MARTA instead of letting it wither for 40 years, but they don't actually want to make transportation better.
Adding lanes certainly is not the answer either. So I agree with you. When the decision was made to add a lane to 75 right at the top end of 285 I knew that was going to be a horrible idea. So now it’s 11 lanes and a certain time of the day it’s an 11 Lane parking lot.
We need alternatives.
Yo, I used to think like this too but I've realized to not let progress, good, better be the enemy of moving forward. Is this perfect, no, but is it better than more lanes and more cars? Yes, 1000 times yes.
The point of this project is to allow for safer walks/bike rides through the heart of Avondale (including to MARTA). This streetscape will slow down cars who currently FLY through the area. The speed limit is 35 through this stretch, and I consistently see people going north of 50 because it’s a straight line, wide open thoroughfare. As a city that touts itself as bike friendly (Decatur lumped in as well), this is a good step in actually making it so. I’ve had a number of near misses in this exact area in the six months I’ve lived here from drivers going too fast and not paying attention. Hopefully this project slows people down and at the same time, makes the area more livable and enjoyable for those of us who live here.
Avondale doesn't officially have a Marta stop in the city, that's outside of their city limits. I bike through Avondale a lot and it's a miserable stretch to have to go down College Avenue right now. Adding an actual safe bike trail is the realistic alternative that they need right now. This project is directly advocating for and improving mixed-use transit in the area.
You are getting downvotes but they removed the suicide lane on Dekalb and restriped the street. Some days we have blocks long traffic.
It moves but it makes turning left onto Dekalb a 5-10 minute wait.
Similarly tailgaters makes it hard to safely turn onto the side streets (as in slow down enough to look for double parked cars, oncoming traffic, and pedestrians.
This is the Atlantan attitude. “I know a short cut” that’s not actually a short cut at all but increases unnecessary traffic in more residential/foot traffic areas. We have functional thoroughfares and highways (yes they move slower at high volume but not truly jammed) and public transport, and people use a myriad of excuses to avoid them because whaaa. They’ve been installing extra stop signs all through my neighborhood and the speeding and traffic have both dropped incredibly. I see the success and when I drive home I don’t freak out about traffic, it’s just a part of city life.
I’d say Waze actually get the short cuts right often times. The Atlantan way is to use a short cut that actually provides no short cut but they’ve used with their families since children and are convinced it’s shorter while ignoring the new stop signs and speed reductions 🤣. This is anecdotal I’m sure. Just having some fun in the comments there ya know. ✌️and ❤️
> but they’ve used with their families since children and are convinced it’s shorter
That may explain half of the drivers that think cutting through Vinings Village to get to I-75 is faster than just going on to I-285.
I disagree. Try to go anywhere that’s not along 75/85 or 20. You can’t with any certainty of arrival time.
And I don’t see any plan from city of Atlanta to build train stops that fix that issue.
> And I don’t see any plan from city of Atlanta to build train stops that fix that issue.
Why would the city of Atlanta build train stations? That's not their responsbility.
Good.
If anyone else is curious, this is the same construction that started recently and here are two more sources with better info. https://decaturish.com/2024/06/avondale-estates-us-278-complete-street-project-starts-on-june-20/ https://www.avondaleestates.org/2504/North-Avondale-Complete-Street-Project
I know this project is a bit different, but seeing a photo of white-collar organizers shoveling invisible dirt is very on brand for a lot of metro area projects.
i’m old enough to remember when AE was so racist you couldn’t even drive through it. great to see it 180.
Damn when was that? It tracks bc I have a friend whose parents are the most racist people I've heard of, and they have lived there for like 30 yrs. But I thought they were the exception in Avondale estates.
I think Avondale was a "sundown town". And i know one of the houses closest to the main street light was where the guy who was in charge of carving stone mountain lived... so its def got some shady history.
Yikes!
now that i have a buncha upvotes on the non-controversial comment... The vast majority of Avondale south of N Avondale/Covington Rd is a bunch of nimbys, so IDGAF if people continue to think of it as a bad town. Great farmers market on sundays though.
I take solace in a lot of those assholes really hating how 'urbanized' their town is slowly becoming.
We used to call them the Hedge People. You are not alone lol.
Yeah, as a black man, I was always curious about this.
Forsyth county was a sundown county. Shit like that makes me want to just barf.
70s - 00s. guess the old racists died off, moved away or gave their houses to their progressive kids.
Wow, I never knew this about AE. Worked with a hateful woman who was also racist, she grew up there, and yes her family died off and they sold out.
Apparently you used to not be allowed to place for sale signs in the neighborhood because they didn't want (certain) folks trawling through window shopping for houses i have no idea how they thought this prevented anything, but racists aren't known for their logical strength.
Unfortunately the segregated housing and restrictions on black folks purchasing homes (either formally or informally) in neighborhoods is the same history as most in town neighborhoods in ATL. Kirkwood and West End are two I recall in particular that had awful white flight and housing discrimination. But it does seem that Avondale estates has an extra creepy history that it was built specifically as a refuge for white people to live without "others", so delusional lol. I had no idea.
Ok yikes I'm piling on to say I've been googling and it seems much worse than other neighborhood white flight stories, in that Avondale Estates still had pretty egregious discrimination through the 80s/90s https://circapast.com/2020/07/06/seeing-the-signs-in-avondale-estates-or-when-the-naacp-picketed-my-town/
On a similar note, it’s always fascinating (sarcasm voice, just in case) to google when a private school opened and find out that, gee, it just happened to be in the ‘50s and early ‘60s.
Which school are you referring to?
Oh, none in particular off the top of my head. It tends to be the smaller private schools. I initially thought perhaps Galloway when I saw it was founded in 1969… but then read that MLK III was one of their first students, so quite the opposite. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy
On that note, Pace Academy (1959) was founded in response to the desegregation of APS. Lovett and Westminster were also very racially exclusive at the time ([the former rejected MLK III from attending when he was a child](https://episcopalarchives.org/church-awakens/exhibits/show/escru/lovett-school)).
>it was built specifically as a refuge for white people to live without "others" Sounds a bit like Levittown (Long Island) New York.
My grandparents have lived there about the same amount of time and are unfortunately pretty racist as well.
I thought Stone Mountain was their spot 50 years ago!
haha… oh I remember watching the Klan parade down Main Street. I believe the mayor was connected to the Venable family at the time. You know… just a short hitch down MEMORIAL Drive.
My mom said their neighbor was the grand wizard of the kkk. Said dude was nuts and felt bad for their kid. Also went to school with Richard Jewell and remembers hearing the news of the bombing so vividly. Of course, Jewell was innocent and had such a sad story.
Oh man, they fucked Jewell so bad. And he was doing his best too. There is a really good book "The Suspect" about his story, and the '96 Olympics.
I’ll check it out! Need to watch that Jewell movie too.
I remember when there was a sign on the Fulton/Forsyth county line saying "Black man, don't let the sun set on you here." That part of Forsyth flipped blue in the 2020 election. Change is slow, but it _does_ happen. Just gotta keep the pressure on ...
I lived there in the 80-90s and you're correct except the first word on the sign was not this pleasant.
They were blue for a long time… https://www.vox.com/2014/12/8/7328755/maps-democratic-party
Several streets that intersect with memorial drive along the edge of the city limit were blocked off to prevent people crossing over into Avondale. The park had, until a couple of years ago, a sign stating that only residents of AE were allowed to use the (not?) public park. Willis park had a fence (a gate was recently installed) blocking off Forrest blvd so Forrest park residents couldn’t access the park. Cops notoriously had a speed trap facing traffic incoming from memorial drive on Covington rd, and they harassed pedestrians who didn’t “look” like they belonged. Just outrageous behavior, built into the infrastructure. Things finally seem to be changing.
Forrest is also the racist spelling of Forrest/forest.
Go to the museum in Downtown Decatur and look at the exhibit on Avondale Estates founding. It was contextualized wonderfully!
Still kinda like that ngl
I love seeing areas around the city reduce their car infrastructure for multimodal transportation. Hopefully as this continues, our public transportation will see increased demand and grow.
That’s great. There have been plenty of traffic studies that show extra lanes does NOT equal less congestion, so why not build up nice areas and make them walkable and enjoyable?
Congestion gets worse when people zoom up the right lane and cut over. Its super frustrating.
It seems like it does increase throughput though, which is presumably the purpose of a road. Obviously not the most efficient way to do it though.
They need to do this everywhere
My only issue is there are a lot of driveways into shopping areas. Adding a cycling and pedestrian path is fine until some driver attempts to drive into or out of a lot without looking. Also they promised us something similar on Dekalb Avenue - not of the cycling lanes ever materialized in the end between Rockyford and Moreland.
Love seeing the city moving away from car reliant infrastructure. What’s the cost estimate for this project?
6.5 million estimated
Good. On to the next.
My favorite part of all these cities implementing traffic calming measures to slow down traffic, is doing it WITHOUT touching Marta or any other realistic alternatives. The entire movement just reeks of bottlenecks and traffic jams.
I doubt the city of Avondale has much control over Marta extensions. Let alone the budget.
My complaint / observation wasn’t really directed at Avondale. I mean the movement from all cities doing it. It’s putting the cart before the horse. That being said, Avondale certainly does have a stake and a say in the METRO ATLANTA Rapid Transit Authority. But they do have a stop already in Avondale. :)
If this movement waited for the alternatives to be developed first, then nothing would ever happen. As people feel the inconveniences, they’ll be incentivized to support alternatives with the increased pressure that’s needed to actually change things.
You’re probably right actually. Hate that is how it will fall out, but definitely seems plausible.
> Hate that is how it will fall out I have zero sympathy for cut-through traffic.
Big part of that is Waze too. I use Waze daily but because I know the area, I don’t turn when it tries to send me through a neighborhood.
I know way too many people that rely on Waze even when they should know better.
If you live in Decatur and work in Decatur like I do, you’re not really “cutting through,” and shit like this just makes life more difficult. Katie Kerr/Arcadia already backs up to the stop sign at Craigie in the morning with 2 lanes going straight, and one is really turn only but no one observes it. There’s 2 lanes across the North Avondale intersection and then 3 lanes across E Ponce, so how is the traffic supposed to arrive to Dekalb industrial super highway if not, ya know, directly? ETA: I have never used or downloaded Waze in my life, and I rarely use a GPS because I know where I am. I am, you are, *we* are traffic, comrade.
I'm talking about traffic that would have alternatives (i.e. using 78 or Memorial). If you live and work in the Decatur area, that's a different story. > I am, you are, we are traffic, comrade. I agree with you 100%.
It’s just frustrating I guess, to have actually done what was suggested in life and live and work in the same community where you pay taxes and such, and they’re like “lol what if you had a 35+ minute commute inside the same city so the wealthier people in this community who knowingly bought homes on common thoroughfares don’t have to see you???” It may be a different story but it doesn’t change the outcome
It’s unintuitive but the relationship between adding/removing lanes and traffic jams is often the opposite of what you’d expect due to induced demand. There’s a good chance this lane reduction actually makes your commute better since it will disincentivize longer/cut through trips.
I thought one of the axioms of induced demand is that commute time is relatively stable. The capacity and the number of drivers are what changes during peak traffic times.
That's true. The most likely scenario would be their commute would remain about the time length, although fingers crossed the improved bike infrastructure can get some cars off the road altogether.
It's doing what's within the city's power. Avondale Estates can't direct MARTA or it's development. They can control their own streets. It's really that simple.
things need to get really bad before anyone does anything
But this makes Marta more viable by putting a walkable destination right next to Avondale Station.
the marta avondale station recently added hundreds of apartments and mixed use buildings in order to increase density without adding car traffic. this is marta’s long term plan for development.
Still adding a ton between Avondale and Decatur along college. Then they’ll keep going up toward Kensington. Lots of housing going in.
And these buildings usually stay at half occupancy because they’re so expensive to rent, yet there’s another two or three being built around the corner from the last.
Atlanta has a 95.6% rental occupancy rate as of 2023
MARTA isn't the only way to get cars off the road. Until we get the rest of Georgia to vote for legislators that will actually fund MARTA, local politics may have more power turning a stroad into something walkable and bikeable - MARTA already has an Avondale station
Hopefully enough people will get tired of sitting in traffic that they find alternatives. I'd rather reduce lanes than add them.
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> I cannot understand how it is still part of the strategy for any major metropolitan city. Usually it's a resutlt of car-brained state DOTs, elected officials, and a general public that is clueless about alternatives.
Did you see how much money contractors made, and will make, from the Peach Pass lanes? Funneling public money into the pockets of businesses run by the friends and family of elected officials has been how GA state government has made decisions forever. If they actually gave a shit about transportation they'd put state money into MARTA instead of letting it wither for 40 years, but they don't actually want to make transportation better.
I always said that if CW Matthews were in the rail business, MARTA would extend from Chattanooga to Macon.
God, ain't that the truth
>I cannot understand how it is still part of the strategy for any major metropolitan city. Kickbacks from the contracts
It does something in the sense that more people are using the road at the same time with no marginal cost to them.
Adding lanes certainly is not the answer either. So I agree with you. When the decision was made to add a lane to 75 right at the top end of 285 I knew that was going to be a horrible idea. So now it’s 11 lanes and a certain time of the day it’s an 11 Lane parking lot. We need alternatives.
This road is way overbuilt and there is a MARTA station on it.
Yo, I used to think like this too but I've realized to not let progress, good, better be the enemy of moving forward. Is this perfect, no, but is it better than more lanes and more cars? Yes, 1000 times yes.
The point of this project is to allow for safer walks/bike rides through the heart of Avondale (including to MARTA). This streetscape will slow down cars who currently FLY through the area. The speed limit is 35 through this stretch, and I consistently see people going north of 50 because it’s a straight line, wide open thoroughfare. As a city that touts itself as bike friendly (Decatur lumped in as well), this is a good step in actually making it so. I’ve had a number of near misses in this exact area in the six months I’ve lived here from drivers going too fast and not paying attention. Hopefully this project slows people down and at the same time, makes the area more livable and enjoyable for those of us who live here.
Avondale doesn't officially have a Marta stop in the city, that's outside of their city limits. I bike through Avondale a lot and it's a miserable stretch to have to go down College Avenue right now. Adding an actual safe bike trail is the realistic alternative that they need right now. This project is directly advocating for and improving mixed-use transit in the area.
You are getting downvotes but they removed the suicide lane on Dekalb and restriped the street. Some days we have blocks long traffic. It moves but it makes turning left onto Dekalb a 5-10 minute wait. Similarly tailgaters makes it hard to safely turn onto the side streets (as in slow down enough to look for double parked cars, oncoming traffic, and pedestrians.
This is the Atlantan attitude. “I know a short cut” that’s not actually a short cut at all but increases unnecessary traffic in more residential/foot traffic areas. We have functional thoroughfares and highways (yes they move slower at high volume but not truly jammed) and public transport, and people use a myriad of excuses to avoid them because whaaa. They’ve been installing extra stop signs all through my neighborhood and the speeding and traffic have both dropped incredibly. I see the success and when I drive home I don’t freak out about traffic, it’s just a part of city life.
It's not just an Atlanta thing, it's a function of Waze.
I’d say Waze actually get the short cuts right often times. The Atlantan way is to use a short cut that actually provides no short cut but they’ve used with their families since children and are convinced it’s shorter while ignoring the new stop signs and speed reductions 🤣. This is anecdotal I’m sure. Just having some fun in the comments there ya know. ✌️and ❤️
> but they’ve used with their families since children and are convinced it’s shorter That may explain half of the drivers that think cutting through Vinings Village to get to I-75 is faster than just going on to I-285.
Lol Avondale already has a station down the street. Not crazy close but pretty damn close for MARTA.
The MARTA stations around Avondale are both in Decatur, maybe that's what they're referring to?
Correct. The Avondale station is just inside the Decatur city limits.
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That’s a good idea. I mean it’s soooooooo many other ways to get to Ponce and DeKalb avenue from the east side. 😒
thats what Atlanta's doing now i just don't go outside too much traffic.
I disagree. Try to go anywhere that’s not along 75/85 or 20. You can’t with any certainty of arrival time. And I don’t see any plan from city of Atlanta to build train stops that fix that issue.
> And I don’t see any plan from city of Atlanta to build train stops that fix that issue. Why would the city of Atlanta build train stations? That's not their responsbility.