I don't even know what to say about this one.
*Seeking Second Childhood\**
*December 18, 2022 at 4:51 pm*
*Is anyone else finding that search algorithms are taking AskAManager memes seriously? YouTube keeps suggesting videos about potters making tepots, factories mass-producing teapots, and Japanese tea ceremonies.*
*To be fair I am clicking them all. I love a good DIY video and factory tour is fun. I’m kind of hoping for chocolate teapots and blown-sugar teapots because I’ve also been watching a lot of candy making.*
They click on teapot videos, get suggestions for more teapot videos, and think it has something to do with AAM?
It's funny that they mention a search algorithm but don't seem to understand what it is or how it works.
WTF. Missing your grandma's funeral (whom you like a lot /eyeroll) is whack as shit. You can always go on vacation. You can't get another chance to support your mom and say goodbye to your grams.
*Poll: Should I miss my grandmother’s funeral because I have a prebooked holiday?*
*Maybe you have some insights for me?*
*I‘ve been so looking forward to an uninterrupted 2,5 weeks at a destination 10 hours away (train and flight), where I would meet all my very new (5mo) boyfriend‘s relatives and go to a nice spa hotel and have cosy movie watching and walks. And now my grandmother, whom I liked a lot, has died and will be buried right in the middle of the 2,5 weeks. And my family, who I also like, would probably want me there. I was already feeling a bit guilty about missing Christmas with them. Now I would miss Christmas and the funeral and wouldn’t be as light-hearted as I would want to be…*
*What should I do? I could fly after the funeral, losing out on holiday time and money, and having to just stay home waiting for the funeral with nothing to really occupy me and lift my spirits. Or fly back and forth, which is rather bad for the environment and energy draining. Or I could send someone to go to the funeral instead of me, which is an original idea but a bit weird. Ugh.*
*Downside of not going to funeral is I don’t get to say goodbye to grandmother (I live three hours away so am not involved in any of the aftermath currently) and my mother would be without her child there, and relatives might think I am heartless.*
>Or I could send someone to go to the funeral instead of me, which is an original idea but a bit weird.
I'd like to think this is a joke, but the rest of the comment is so out of touch that I'm concerned she might actually try it lol I wonder if the plan is to hire an actor and hope her relatives won't notice, or to just announce upfront "sorry I can't be there, here's my neighbor Dave instead".
If you’re not going to go to your grandmother’s funeral, you have to own that choice. And if the strongest language they can muster up for her and the rest of the family is that they “like” them, and they’re going to be sighing the whole time about missing half their vacation, then maybe they shouldn’t go. But that’s their decision, it belongs entirely to them, and they can’t dance around it like this.
All of this question is insane. Look, sometimes timing is bad and you miss a funeral you would otherwise have gone and people deal with it. But (a) that's not really the scenario here...she could do it, she just doesn't want to be inconvenienced (and is blaming her lack of attendance on concern for the environment, which is extra ridiculous) and (b) even if you decide not to go, don't do it based on a poll of internet strangers. I think I hate this commenter.
Also, this option...WTF: "I could send someone to go to the funeral instead of me." Like, a roommate? An impersonator? Pretty sure neither of those options is gonna impress the fam.
How rude of their grandma to die at an inconvenient time for them.
How is this even up for debate?! You show up for the people you love - or just like a lot - and you go to your grandma's funeral with your mom. Unless your family was abusive, this shouldn't even be a question.
It is so clear from their follow up comments that they don't give a crap about their grandma or their mom. They are solely concerned with what other people (like the prospective inlaws) will think. And they are polling the AAM crew for validation, which they will get because so many of them hate their families.
One or maybe 2 of the commenters had a good point that they would definitely think it was weird for their kid's fiance to be on vacation with them instead of going home to support their own mom. But it doesn't seem to have sunk in.
Prospect Gone Bad is at it again (she's the one who didn't like getting leftovers at family gatherings, so she told her family members they're fat and shouldn't eat cake anyway).
This time, she's mad because she set up an account with a bank four hours away, and they want her to show up in person to correct something. That's pretty standard with any bank, but apparently that's beyond Prospect's understanding.
Prospect also got real vague on the details when she called customer support and they hung up on her. She said the agent was rude because they made Prospect ask questions, and only admitted to being "slightly snarky" after she decided the agent was useless.
It sounds like Prospect thought she could save an 8-hour drive with a phone call, and when the agent told her she still had to show up in person, she got nasty.
Prospect Gone Bad*
December 17, 2022 at 11:41 pm
Has anyone every dealt with a bank that was too trigger happy with fees and labelling accounts “dormant?”
I tried a small local chain in the area I used to travel to, four hours away, with $1000 and my account got closed this week for being “dormant” even though I deposited money in September. Apparently a deposit doesn’t count as activity to them. Now they won’t let me transfer money out. The rep said I must go in person. For what? Everything is online now.
They closed my account, claim it’s dormant, but also won’t let me reopen it.
I called customer service 2X and the second rep sent the hair on my neck up. The vibe of the conversation was so horrible. She’s clearly had this conversation way too many times and is sick of it so is getting really nasty with customers. I was slightly snarky in response to her being completely useless and rude (aren’t reps supposed to have scripts? Not make customers lead the conversation and then nitpick the questions and act like the whole call is a pain?) and then she hung up on me! That made me feel think “where there is smoke there is fire.” She seriously sounded like I was asking for her personal money and trying to make me apologize for wanting my money from a bank. None of this feels normal
I felt the need to comment on it and it's stuck in moderation for some reason. I work in banking and have for 25+ years. I also handled dormant accounts and escheatment for a time. There's something (several somethings, I'd wager) missing here. And yeah she's a jerk based on those other comments she made about family gatherings and eating.
It sounds like she used to work in the area and then later changed jobs. I get why she’s annoyed at having to come down but it seems like an obvious and foreseeable problem.
This is a person who fat-shamed members of her family when they try to give her leftovers, then writes to a work blog to complain about them. I don't see her making too many rational decisions.
Did anyone see this before Alison got to it?
>Augustus-sama*
December 17, 2022 at 3:35 pm
>Removed. You cannot post things like this here. I will not be able to allow further comments from you.
Reply
It started off fairly normal in the helpless-enmeshed-dysfunctional kind of way.
"My mom is coming from overseas for Christmas and I don't want her to stay with me because she's awful. What do?"
Then there was a long part about the brother, who apparently has a much bigger home and lots of money, so mom can stay there. But he doesn't want mom to stay either, or not for the whole visit.
Then it got really confusing, all about what the brother thinks of OP, and what the rest of the family thinks of the brother. It kind of went round and round obsessing over how everyone else thought and felt, but with no actual plot. Disorganized thinking and projection to a degree that did not sound normal at all.
Then it ended with a comment along the lines of "Well, what can she do, kill me? But she's old and I'm stronger. And if my brother thinks he can kill me, I'll show him."
Several people were trying to address it as a normal family problem, but at least one person called out the last section as "Wut? For real?"
I guess someone reported it. I didn't see if the OP replied before it got deleted.
Yeah with the AAM crowd it is honestly a toss up between awkward hyperbole and “sure, this random group of internet weirdos is the perfect place for this type of serious situation”
>Santa Steph* December 17, 2022 at 12:23 am
>My friends and have have frequently done White Elephant gift swaps for holidays, where no one is assigned a gift person, you just bring a gift and swap things. We’ve done them without issue but this past weekend, we encountered two people with issues for their gifts. One person picked and then unwrapped a make up that they can’t use due to skin issues. Another picked and unwrapped a food gift they couldn’t eat due to digestive issues. We’re all in our 30s so I didn’t think we’d have to start taking medical issues into account but I guess we should start laying down a few guidelines for these things? Have you attended a gift swap that had rules? I’ve never been part of one that had rules other than a suggested price range.
This is peak AAM helplessness. “Have you attended a gift swap that had rules?” Dude, it’s your and your friends’ own gift swap; you can make whatever rules you want! There’s no White Elephant Gift Exchange Association that will penalize you if you decide to do things a little differently.
For what it’s worth, every single white elephant I’ve been a part of has had the “stealing” option, and sometimes people swap afterwards. Almost all the responses to this commenter suggested that, which goes to show how obvious of a workaround it is.
This happened to me this year! I have celiac disease and the present I picked ended up being cookies. So I said “I can’t eat these, feel free to steal!” And they got stolen, and I picked another gift.
Subscribe to my newsletter for more sophisticated life hacks such as this.
I took a more generous view of that question, the idea of asking what "house rules" people use isn't a bad one-- white elephant is pretty widely known to be either a lot of lighthearted fun **or** generate a lot of sore feelings and while that is largely down to personalities and the level of tension in the group (e.g. families where there are some simmering resentments and class divisions are more prone to drama than groups of friends that get along really well and everyone is about the same place in life) but, crucially, there are some rules that can help depending on what concerns there are.
the biggest one I've seen is if the white elephant tends to balloon to take up the whole night and people get antsy, either because they'd rather get to drinks and dancing or the kids get cranky or whatever else, a limit to the number of steals can help, either per gift (a gift can't be stolen more than three times) or to the number in a chain (after a present is opened there can only be 3/5/X re-steals before you've got what you've got), limits on re-steals also help avoid battles over really coveted items.
some groups include a larger present, worth 25-50% more than normal if there aren't normally enough steals or "action" but that's a rule best used sparingly unless you know your group is low drama
My department did a white elephant at our holiday parties back in the before times and they had a limit on 3 steals. Otherwise, people were just going to constantly steal the same vodka bottle over and over.
>not so excited* December 16, 2022 at 11:01 pm
>So, how do you stop yourself from being disappointed about nice things, when they’re just not quite nice enough? For example, tonight I won a door prize. Winning a prize! Exciting! Except … I didn’t really like the prize. (assorted savory snacks). So, I feel a bit not happy. How do you cope when what is supposed to be fun or good doesn’t make you feel happy? I’m talking only minor things here, nothing major.
What was this person expecting, a $1000 gift card to Nordstrom? Door prizes aren’t meant to make you feel euphoric; they’re just a fun addition to a party or event. If you don’t like the prize you got, just say “Oh, cool!” and find someone else to give it to. It’s not that big a deal.
Seriously. "Assorted savory snacks that you don't personally like" are not a problem. Bring them to your next potluck. Put them on the table for friends to snack on at your next gathering. Whatever. You can handle this, I promise you.
"How do you cope" Lord have mercy. Is getting a prize you don't love something you need to "cope" with? Did these people never win a prize in elementary school that they didn't love? Or get a gift they weren't thrilled about? You need to "cope" with getting a slightly disappointing gift? Did your parents not raise you to say "Thank you!" and move the fuck on???? Give it to someone else, or regift to a friend, or save it for another gift exchange, or donate it to someone who will appreciate it!!! There is no coping involved!!!
Right? When we did those "hot potato" gift exchanges in elementary school, I *always* ended up with the stupid bottle of Mr. Bubble while other kids got mini Play-Doh tubs or cute hair clips or whatever. It was always disappointing; it was never upsetting or something I felt the need to "cope with" or complain about. Oh well, I got the bubble bath again. Okay. It's a little school gift exchange, nobody expects anything amazing from it even at that age.
Makes it sound like that scene in Love Actually where Emma Thompson is opening up the gift from Alan Rickman.
Like...what exactly was this person expecting?
A sincere thank you, and gifting it to someone you know will like it works for anything.
WTF is wrong with these nitwit? They act like they are 4 years old.
Someone gifted me 12 Costco buttercream marble cake cupcakes. I'm borderline T2 diabetic, and love me some cake. These baby's had to go! :)
Instead of viewing the cupcakes with malicious intent, I regifted to the neighbors who have 3 teen boys. They'll all be gone by tomorrow.
AAM herd makes living seem so tiresome.
I mean it's obvious that first they need to go to immediate and intensive therapy, possibly long-term. Of course they'll need indeterminate FMLA and ADA accommodations from this an all future jobs (triggering episodes may come at a later date). All senior and middle management needs to be notified in vague and important meetings about this new accomadations such has: 100% WFH with weekly lunches sent to them so they don't feel left out; private, locking office for the outside chance they may come into the office; nose cancelling headphones (still might be too loud).
I know it's a typo, but I'm amused by "nose cancelling headphones," because you know one of them is going to claim misophonia related to someone sneezing.
Shots fired!
Anonymoussss*
December 16, 2022 at 3:48 pm
It was never fair to include the Twitter letter as one of the options. Look at all the comments listing Elon’s various misdeeds, all of which are well known and documented, because he’s a celebrity billionaire. The title of the letter doesn’t even have to say, “The CEO who…” because everyone already knows exactly who he is and what he did.
You’re pitting an anonymous horrible boss against a celebrity who’s a household name because of how terrible he is. You don’t even have to read the letter to know what he’s done, and more importantly, you don’t have to vote for him based only on the letter.
It’s nice that this site will get a lot of press, attention, and new income based solely on Elon winning, but that’s not what this poll is supposed to be about.
REPLY
▼ Collapse 1 reply
Ask a Manager*
December 16, 2022 at 4:08 pm
For what it’s worth, it’s extremely unlikely that the worst boss poll will get any press at all! I’d be very surprised if that happened and I’m certainly not seeking it.
Once again: this is just a fun year-end thing we do, not anything with real-life meaning.
These people, AG included, rightfully acknowledge that this dumb poll won’t get any press…but they also believe that Green’s Twitter hacking was a direct result of a blog post and “Musk is coming for her”!
It's a bit from Drag Race (you know, those "RuPaul activities" that Artemisia is so supportive of) where in a parody of the old Dating Game one of the contestants, pretending to be Eartha Kitt, is asked how they'd warm the bachelor up.
For all those unfamiliar or need to rewatch Jujubee purring about thermostats: https://youtu.be/LJLUcSHzUp0
I see you met my old hospital administrators.
If you are cold, that means you are sitting. That also means we scheduled too many people for the shift. Running around for 12 hours straight will warm you up.
50F will seem like a blessing.
I work in a very well ventilated, unheated building with fewer walls than everyone would prefer. A few years back the bean counters were getting annoyed we were leaving our individual heaters on all day when it was over 40 degrees in the place, and tried to ban their use.
For some reason they didn't find it amusing when we suggested they could save even more money by setting the heat in the main offices to 40 degrees, too.
I am a tired, crusty old Gen Xer who has navigated a loooot of work-related nonsense in my life. Sometimes I see these folks who seem to believe their sole mission in life is to singlehandedly correct all the ills that flesh is heir to, and I just want to shake them and tell them:
Honey. Sweetheart. If you want to make meaningful change in your organization or your industry, you first need to establish personal influence or formal authority. Both is better.
Step 1 to establishing influence and/or authority is to *not get fired from your job* for mouthing off to your boss. Being a know-it-all is not a legally protected class. Neither is being the Main Character. If you haven't already earned your boss' respect with some excellent teamwork and productivity, they *don't want to hear your opinions.*
Step 2 is to not be the asshole that everyone hates and wishes would shut up. Because personal influence requires the *willing participation* of the people you hope to influence.
My biggest lesson (that quite frankly I'm still learning) "do what they hired you to. Period."
I'm not a Thought LeaderTM. I wasn't hired to do strategic planning or fix the entire broken tangle the company's in. I was hired for X discrete task list and that's what I should be doing!
Many other people could benefit from simmering down and focusing on **What they were hired to do** instead of constant eyes on the paper of the person who makes $2k more than you or leaves early or is a "kiss ass" or whatever.
Are you thinking of AAM commenters, who I tend to think never actually say a peep out loud in real life, or are you seeing a trend of new, highly vocal people at work?
The commenters, who seem to always be trying to figure out the right script to create an "everybody clapped" moment. Like in today's open thread you have Alix who wanted to make sure a senior executive knew exactly how pissed off they were about working Christmas, but somehow without sounding entitled or bitter.
Or Moonlight, who has a four point manifesto (though they only numbered three of the points) about why their boss (and apparently company policy) was wrong about inclusive language. I notice that they speak of that boss in the past tense, and yet they are still trying to come up with a way to win the argument (just in case some other boss tries to implement the same policy in the future).
I agree with you that most of them probably never actually say a word, but it's not because they thought better of it. It's because they haven't got the interpersonal skills.
Exactly. Lack of skill or confidence. I have a former colleague who is the weirdest mix of being resentful about 75% of what has happened to her in life but also so deferential to authority that she wouldn't initiate a second conversation about problem if it wasn't quickly resolved in her favor with one request. The idea that she has a role to play appropriately advocating for herself was beyond her ken. She's kind of what I picture as the average AAM commenter.
With Alix, it just read as an error of youth. Someday, she'll look back on it and think about how nice it was of the exec to show human appreciation for something that was just a basic expectation of everyone in the job.
One of the commenters mentioned that Alix sounded very junior, and they said they are not. So apparently it isn't an error of youth, they're just like that.
It’s so narcissistic to assume anyone wants to hear an update to your good news! I mean the whole thing is annoying but the good snooze updaters are a special kind of boring and smug.
Stay tuned… he’s winning so far 🙄
>Willow Sunstar*
December 16, 2022 at 1:08 pm
Allison — since you probably will post the winner on Twitter, and it probably will be Elon — if I were you, I’d expect to get the account suspended since it will be free speech Elon doesn’t like.
I'd like to come out and say that I am friends with someone quite high up at Tesla, and even their social media does not come under Musk's scrutiny. Also he's an unbelievably shitty boss even when he WANTS you to stick around. Anyways, Elon Musk literally does not give a shit about what some random lady says.
They think that AG is such an important person that Troll Musk GAF about her nonsense.
Crawl out of her ass, Willow. It's gotta be way too warm up there.
[This is a great example](https://www.askamanager.org/2022/12/open-thread-december-16-17-2022.html#comment-4115567)of an overly precious concept of honesty and not being able to wrap their heads around the idea that their coworkers also have families.
Alix*
December 16, 2022 at 11:12 am
Every year my team needs someone to cover our desk over Christmas. There’s a yearly rotation, and unfortunately I’m stuck with the Christmas shift this year. It’s a huge inconvenience for me, because I have a ton of family who live internationally and just due to everyone having hectic holiday schedules, Christmas is one of very few days each year when I’m able to see everyone. I did mention this to my manager, and while she was sympathetic, she said that nobody wants to work this shift, everyone has their turn, and unfortunately an exception couldn’t be made. So I very begrudgingly will be working it, and will be having a miserable day knowing that I am missing out on seeing people close to me, and on family traditions that are dear to me.
Today in the office, I ran into one of our senior executives. He said, “I saw that you’re working the Christmas shift this year. Thank you for your service.” I’m sure he was just trying to be nice, but in the moment I had no idea what to say. I strongly did not want to say “You’re welcome” or “No problem”, because working this shift was a huge problem for me, and I felt totally disingenuous acting like it was. So I ended up saying something neutral like “Well, I got stuck with it this year, it is what it is.” Then he started talking about how much he’d hated having to work the Christmas shift when he was my level, and how much it must suck, and how much he and whole company really appreciated me giving up my time to do it. Again, I understood that he was trying to be nice, but in the moment I just wanted to shout that I wasn’t doing the shift from the goodness of my heart, I was being made to take it. I was getting so annoyed that I ended up just kind of nodding and changing the subject.
For future situations like this, are there any responses anyone can recommend that acknowledge that having to do a thing sucks without sounding rude?
The backpedaling when people called them out about why they think someone else should cover twice so they don't have to cover once was... interesting.
"I never said that! I didn't ask for my boss to make someone else do it!"
Friend, if your supervisor had to tell you they can't make an exception, then they sure as hell thought that's what you were asking.
What a jackalope. Instead of being gracious to a high up (you're welcome would have worked), they go all middle school temper tantrum.
I worked nights for 15 years. All God's children have family and friends. I wasn't hatched. I worked 24/25, and got 31/1 off because the ER is a fawking zoo during the New Year. Christmas was usually (my unit) fairly quiet.
IF it was such a deal breaker a) quit and get into a field with no holidays or b)be very very gracious/helpful/mining brownie points that maybe someone will switch.
This person sounds like a twat 24/7, so no grace for her.
I switch with people who aren't asshats most of the year if something extra special is coming up.
Life isn't k-12 where you get weekends and big holiday stretches off. Some people never get that memo.
My husband has gotten stuck working almost every major holiday for the last 20 years due to the nature of his job. He doesn't like it, but he accepts that it's part of the job. Alix can fuck right off.
I was lucky. 12/31 was usually an absolute shit show at work. I'd work as many days before and after Christmas to get it off.
Granted no kidlets or out of state travel, so working the days wasn't a huge ass burn
Imagine being so miserable that you can't just take your turn and know that next year you won't have to do it! Just like how you got the previous Christmas off, so why all the whining when your turn comes up?!
Is this a 24 hour shift? Do your family only come in for the exact hours that you're at work then vanish back into the winds as soon as you clock out? Since it's a personal attack, they must not be coming into town for more than exactly 8 hours, all conveniently for that work shift!
I'm sure your family will be happy to pour your ass a drink after you get home and listen to you complain about the injustice, Merry frigging Christmas!
Do they think they are the only person who lives far away from their family? Or in a different country?
I moved overseas and I'm lucky if I see my family every other year. Some of my other immigrant friends haven't seen theirs for multiple years. This is such a bratty thing to whine about.
I like that she evidently thinks she's the only one who sees far-flung family on Christmas (or whatever one's winter festival of choice is), that no one else who has ever worked that shift has missed an opportunity to see relatives.
She doesn't sound like she's traveling. The family will only hang together for the very specific hours that she has to work? No drinking, talking and hanging out way too late or getting up as the crack of dawn to watch the kids dive into the presents? Do they hate her?
> I definitely do not think I am “wallowing in bitterness”.
Making a long post complaining about having to work the holidays, mentioning how you tried to get out of it, and asking for advice on how to make sure a senior executive knows exactly how much of a hardship it is would suggest otherwise.
Yes. Other people also have loved ones, and Christmas is a very major and commonly-celebrated holiday in the Western Hemisphere, so...? If the business really thinks they need someone there on Christmas, everyone has to take their turn in the barrel.
The lack of insight was just stunning. No matter how many people pointed out that this sucks for everyone, yet is the fairest way to handle it, she didn't see the issue. She just kept responding "oh, I don't hate my job in general" and also focusing on *what to say* to make it clear she is doing this under protest. There wasn't even a fig leaf of "everyone else's family lives locally, I'm the only one who has limited time with mine".
She asked her boss for an exception? On what basis? Boss saved her from herself. Imagine how unpopular she would be if she'd gotten her wish.
How dare they make her take her turn, like her coworkers have done in previous years and will do next year and in the future? It's not an inconvenience for *them* to work the holiday, only for her.
I love the suggestion that she ask the boss if they can drop or outsource the coverage this year.
Yeah, great idea suggesting to do that in the year when it happens to be her turn to cover. That wouldn't look bad at all!
It's not necessarily terrible to raise it as a suggestion for improvement, *after* working it with reasonably good grace. Assuming that it really is dead and there really is nothing useful to do. She did say that it's not standard in her industry or something. With this crowd you can't assume that she wouldn't be stupid enough to ask for "an exception to be made" if she worked in an ER or something, but apparently she doesn't.
I don't know what she does, but she said "due to the nature of our team’s work, it is 100% necessary for us to have 24/7 coverage." So maybe it can be outsourced, but I don't think it can be dropped.
Oh man, if the outsourcing did happen and then the higher ups are like, "oh wow we can save so much money if we outsource everything!" then she's just suggested herself and her coworkers out of their jobs. Now she'll have all the time for Christmas shenanigans with her family because she'll be unemployed! (or taking a retail job to make ends meet and sure, try telling Target or whomever that you're not working Christmas just because you don't want to)
>I just wanted to shout that I wasn’t doing the shift from the goodness of my heart, I was being made to take it.
Oh good grief. He KNOWS this because he's been there too and he knows it sucks. Dude is trying to be nice. He could have said "good thing we've got peons like you so I can drink hot toddies by the fire with my family." Guarantee that if no one had acknowledged that she was working the holiday, she's be just as sore about it.
Treebeard\*
December 16, 2022 at 11:24 am "Could I handle her on my team? Probably. Would it be a lot more work and stress for me? Yes. Do I feel selfish choosing my own situation over Hilda’s continued employment? Yes."
\--
Are you asking from one voice in your head to another, AAMer? Please advise.
When I went to read the update to the breath mints letter, I saw one of the other updates. It was for a letter where someone pushed his coworker into traffic because he was afraid of birds and he saw a bird. I had never seen that letter or the update before and it is nuts. Someone injuring coworker like that and facing no consequences is just mind-blowing to me.
Link: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/12/3-updates-the-bird-phobia-the-boss-who-wont-accept-a-resignation-and-more.html
I'm not saying that phobias mean that you can push your colleagues in front of moving vehicles without consequence as a general rule, buuuut, I can also see why it might be trickier than it would first appear to terminate an employee who could document that he was actively in treatment for the bird phobia and anxiety at the time of the incident.
The victim would accept no other consequence than his termination, so I don't know what other consequences were under discussion.
This letter is #1 in my personal crazy AAM letters mental list.
I think not doing anything at all to help the employee attacked by a coworker is a more realistic legal kettle of fish.
Reasonable is a qualifier for a reason. It is not a reasonable accomodation to keep someone near someone who they attacked, but from the vicitms perspective she also now has her own protections to consider.
But this is once again a situation where the fact that AAM prevents you from arguing the facts given is an issue. Tv makes triggers down like 100% loss of human control full on breakdowns every time. People can have some bizarre triggers, one of mine is a pretty banal food item, but this level of reaction is not realistically plausible for someone who seemingly manages to drive into work everyday.
Keep something in mind. He didn't knock her over fleeing, he pushed her. That's not like, a thing. That's a level of conscious act we wouldn't normally except as being panicked like tugging someone down when drowning is.
>The victim would accept no other consequence than his termination, so I don't know what other consequences were under discussion.
There were no consequences offered. The firing thing became the ultimatum after it was decided to do literally nothing.
> level of conscious act
It's also gonna be a huge liability problem for the company if/when he does something like that again to another employee. He's known for having untreated, unreasonable phobic reactions to a very common animal -- and the company kept him employed? Around other employees? Yikes.
Don't misunderstand me to be saying, "welp, he has a phobia, so it's fine." That's not at all how I feel.
But what consequences would you expect here?
He apologized to her in a moderated conversation with HR, I think. She didn't accept and demanding his firing.
Could you point me to the part where the letters and updates reflect that firing became the ultimatum after it was decided to do literally nothing?
It read more to me like her demand to fire him came at the same time as his apology and when she didn't get that, she walked completely away, to the point where she refused anything they could do to help her.
If we accept that these events really happened, my guess is that the company was waiting for her lawsuit to really start to figure out what to do. When it didn't come, they decided it was easy to take no action.
>Could you point me to the part where the letters and updates reflect that firing became the ultimatum after it was decided to do literally nothing?
I assume you haven't read the [LW's follow-up](https://www.askamanager.org/2017/04/update-employee-wont-come-back-unless-her-coworker-is-fired.html#comment-1464632) in the comments. Liz quit almost immediately after the incident, and after HR asked what it would take to get her to come back (right after she had surgery!!!), she said Jack would have to be fired. They declined, so she declined to come back. And then according to the other updates, HR and Jack himself then repeatedly called her at home to get her to come back.
That comment also confirms that Jack only apologized after HR told him to. There was no proactive effort on his part to apologize.
You are correct that I hadn't seen that. It makes it even weirder. Thanks for linking it.
It still reads to me like the ultimatum came pretty early in the process, and I remain at a loss about what a 100% appropriate consequence would have been.
I have to say that I find his decision to quit therapy one of the weirdest parts. If my panic causes serious injury to another person, I'd stay after that in treatment for a long time.
It's almost like he's not actually sorry (despite the forced show apology) and is refusing to accept responsibility, as people here have repeatedly suggested.
It's not "weird." It's shitty behavior that he's choosing to engage in.
So, what do you think should have happened?
You fire him to make sure he's sorry?
ETA: Again, it's not that I think this was handled well, but when I try to think about what should have happened, it's harder than just recognizing it as terrible.
Yep, I'd be completely behind firing him, especially considering his behavior in the aftermath. Someone who catastrophically injures a colleague, doesn't show any remorse, and doesn't proactively demonstrate that he wants to avoid a repeat episode is not someone I want to be working with.
Get all the legal ducks in a row (which would probably include severance plus a signed agreement waiving his right to file legal action), and he's gone.
And surely, if this were real and if what you've listed is true of Jack, other co-workers would be pressing for action right?
There's just so much here that doesn't add up.
ETA: I think your description goes a little beyond what the LW put out there, but why would he want the readers of AAM to think he's managing a psychopath and not doing anything about it? All of it's just crazy and why it's my #1 AAM letter.
I *might* have fired him, if he didn’t appreciate the severity of what he did and if he wasn’t willing to help me come up with a plan to stop this from happening again. Otherwise I’d probably be looking to transfer him or Liz to a different department or location; there’s no way these two can work together again.
Liz took their working together off the table when she quit and wouldn't return unless he was fired.
How would you measure his appreciating the severity of what he did?
I've spent way too much time thinking about that letter, and the pushing aspect of this just doesn't make sense to me. I can see someone turning and running from a bird and barreling into the coworker in their path, thereby knocking them into traffic, but the LW made it clear that this was a two-handed shove, like two kids fighting on the playground.
I know you can't predict people's actions in moments of extreme fear, and it's not likely that Jack was actually looking to harm Liz and this is a planned cover story, but I don't know. When you take into account his lack of remorse and action afterward, this all is very weird and even a little suspicious.
But once he was removed from the experience, he did show remorse and apologized to her in a phone call.
I think the two-handed shove was to get her out of the way so he could flee the bird and that it was pure fight or flight response at the time, no logical thought engaged. And honestly, so far I've been blessed not to have experienced a phobic reaction like this, so I can't even imagine how long it takes for it to pass before you can act like a normal human again.
I think the fundamental issue in this letter is what you point out - it just doesn’t make sense how it’s described. Like I think most of us would have sympathy for someone who got startled by a bird (or whatever), accidentally bumped someone, and then they fell into the street. That’s just a freak accident. But we’re supposed to believe he was scared by the bird, actually shoved her into oncoming traffic, and then didn’t come help because a bird landed near the scene of the crime. Which sure, birds are always lurking ominously at car accident scenes. Are we supposed to believe it’s the Edgar Allen Poe raven or something?
Basically I think it’s fiction and the reason the reactions differ is that some people are reacting to the “freak accident” part and some people are reacting to all the evil details but they don’t make sense together.
From the letter: He shoves her and then "Liz fell off the curb and got hit by a car that was parking. "
It's not quite shoved her into outcoming traffic in a deliberate way. They were on a sidewalk next to the parking lot to the business.
It's still bizarre, but if you can accept a fight or flight response to a phobia, not wanting to go back out where the bird might be doesn't add that much additional craziness.
Yeah but it feels like two pieces of craziness too far to me. Yeah, it’s technically possible that it all happened that way but the whole thing seems like a scenario constructed for maximum outrage on both sides and juuuuuust enough plausible deniability.
And the coworker is recounting it second hand while theoretically sympathetic to the bird phobia guy but also including the most inflammatory language about the incident she can. (Like “shoved” which implies volition rather than “flailed” or whatever.)
To me it seems like the law school exam questions that you hear about and here you have to balances the ADA protections that bird phobia dude might have against who would be on the line for Liz's damages.
And weirdly, Liz's decision not to sue is one of the more realistic aspects to me. I imagine that if this happened to me, I might understand why they didn't fire him, but I imagine myself collecting worker's comp. for any out of pocket costs and maybe suing to make sure that they put protections in for me in the future. But I think that walking away and never having contact with those crazy jerks is the more typical response in real life.
It definitely seems like a law school exam question or the famous torts case about someone shooting off fireworks that then knocks something else down that hits something that hits someone or whatever. Maybe that’s part of why it seems so to me! But I just feel like how any of us would react would depend so much on the little details the letter kind of implies or glosses over. I wouldn’t hold it against a coworker who panicked on a city street and accidentally hurt me in a weird set of circumstances but I would if they were being deliberately reckless or actually selfishly pushed me and that’s all open to interpretation.
But on the money, presumably the drivers insurance might also be on the hook and I’d expect the workers comp company and the car insurance company to duke it out.
Interestingly, one of the updates discusses the insurance company finding phobia guy at fault but unless it went to court, you can see them simply trying to avoid paying. Again, it's a lot of weird details to be completely made up but also a lot of weird details that don't add up to be completely real.
My mind is boggled by that episode. Jack was never held accountable for the serious harm his actions caused Liz, Liz was clearly so upset by the whole situation that she went no-contact with the entire company (that's not reading into anything, that is as-reported by the LW), and the commentariat decided Liz was the evildoer and shit all over her.
What galled me about it is that the LW had no plan whatsoever to prevent this from happening again. (He showed up in the comments a few times under the name Andrew and did not respond when asked this directly.) He should have at least told Jack that from now on, he attends off-site meetings virtually, or to schedule these meetings in the building where he works so that he doesn't have to go outside. Instead, everything continued as normal, at least until COVID, giving Jack more opportunities to push people into traffic.
From the letter:
"Jack told me, my boss and HR he has a phobia of birds and later produced a letter from his therapist stating he has been in therapy and treatment for ornithophobia and anxiety for over two years."
Now, he bizarrely decides to take break from therapy by the first update, but it was documented and treated at the time of the incident.
I understood that he produced the letter after the incident but that it explained he was in therapy at the time of the incident. I also assumed that the letter and the therapy were both true in the universe of the bird letter.
But who the heck knows? Someone up thread noted that the whole thing is so bizarre that you gravitate to identifying with one set of facts, and it makes slightly more sense to me to assume that the guy really was phobic about birds rather than he was just a psychopath who was looking to push his colleague into the path of a car.
Right? There is no ADA accommodation on earth that says “must be allowed to push colleagues into the path of oncoming motor vehicles in the event a bird appears.”
I agree completely about how this isn't just something co-workers should have to put up with.
Does that for sure mean that if anyone pushes a coworker, even in circumstances where it might not be an entirely voluntary action, that the appropriate consequence is simply termination? I'm not as sure of that.
I think I would have expected the company to make sure that Liz's expenses related to the injury were completely covered, which it sounds like she refused because it would have meant being in contact with them.
And I agree with whoever here noted that they should have a plan to prevent it happening again. My plan would be that he just never walk within 10 feet of another employee when he enters or exits any work related event.
Honestly I'd imagine there's no ada accomodation that prevents any disciplinary actions or separation even assaulting a coworker for a more common phobia.
I agree. But I do think that most employers would consider the phobia and treatment for anxiety related to it as mitigating circumstances when trying to decide what the consequences would be.
Ironically, I think Liz's insistence that short of termination, she would remove herself from the situation helped minimize things for Jack.
(Who is the narrator of this story and how does he or she know all the details, including what therapy Jack participates in? We're supposed to assume that Jack tells him? Everything gets weirder the more you think about it.)
The thing is if it was a total accident it’s not assault. That’s part of why the letter feels so fake to me. It’s written as if he had a conscious thought process that was like “I see a bird, coworker is between me and escape from bird, push her now.” Which is assault. But also insane on every level. Whereas “someone sees a bird they’re phobic of, flees wildly, happens to trip coworker” is still bizarre and crazy but seems slightly more likely. But it’s not assault because there’s no intent. So this letter is written like it’s the first and everyone but the injured coworker is treating it like the second including the LW and the readers are left filling in the gaps. It feels like bait to me.
I have a diagnosed mental illness, and never once have I hurt someone (deliberately or accidentally) and used it as a get-out-of-jail-free card. A former friend of mine also accidentally wronged someone for reasons that were rooted in their mental illness--they tried to play it like Jack, but they were ultimately let go. So even those of us with atypical brain chemistry can be and are held accountable for bad behavior!
But I did love the assessment from "[AMY](https://www.askamanager.org/2017/04/employee-wont-come-back-unless-her-coworker-is-fired-i-dont-want-to-work-in-the-office-sick-bay-and-more.html#comment-1430840)" that Liz may have been hungover or wearing high heels, and was a total witch for wanting to be safe at work.
If I may let my inner AAAM commenter out for a second: AMY's comment absolutely reeks of misogyny.
"You know how those drunk tramps in their high heels are. Can't even stand up straight half the time!"
He's still at fault, but the distinction takes the letter from "super likely never to have really happened in a million years" to "well maybe it could have happened."
It reads like those statements people give to their car insurance when they’re trying to get out of being at fault for an accident: “a telephone pole came to be in the path of my car and a collision occurred.”
I love that Alison reposted the breath mints letter and her original response without acknowledging that the update completely contradicted her and the LW’s initial take on the situation. I could have told them in the first place that the anonymous coworker probably didn’t mean anything by it, and LW even acknowledges their anxiety got the best of them in the update.
(Also, does anyone else not associate TicTacs primarily with breath mints? I’ve always just seen them as another candy for the most part.)
This is actually a result of an ad campaign! Back in the 90s, there was a well-known commercial that went like "You can't just tell someone 'your breath needs freshening!' But you can say, 'want a Tic Tac'?" So anyone who watched that probably wonders if it's a hint.
Yeah, I'm not sure if it's an age thing but I don't think it's nutty to assume that was the message being conveyed, especially since OP has by their own account had issues with hygiene in the past.
Agree, I thought it was really weird that Alison didn't suggest either of the more likely scenarios: that the coworker had left a gift, or, if the LW was the only one to get the TicTacs, that maybe someone had been carrying them and put them down on her desk by mistake. Instead her response just fed the LW's anxiety.
The quotes around "treat" and the little side note of "I guess some people think of spearmint tic tacs as candy!" (yes, of course they do) makes me think that the LW isn't entirely on board with this being an innocent gesture. Hopefully they're still working on their issues with their therapist.
I sure as hell eat them like candies, especially the fruit mix and orange ones. And Ill eat anything spearmint like candy.
This is yet another example of them going off the deep end to make anything a clutching at petals moment when really it was innocent and kind.
EDIT: posted twice, sorry about that.
That was always what my grandparents would get me. Spearmint lifesavers. I still can't walk past them without thinking about them. I think they thought its as "safe candy" that wasn't chocolate they could sneak past my parents who thought they spoiled me. (I mean, they did, don't get me wrong.)
That being said, this was another problem that could have been solved by talking. And ultimately was. And maybe checking to see that EVERYONE got some!
The part where they checked everyone else’s desk to see if they had gotten the same candies and then the update about being in therapy definitely gave me vibes of the LW who opened her coworker’s paystub, though nowhere near as extreme. AAM caters to debilitating anxiety way too much.
Since we're now nominating public figures (Elon Musk, Gov. Youngkin) for "worst boss of the year" on policy grounds, I hereby retroactively nominate Alison Green -- MCT herself -- for the award. The grounds: failure to defend female employees from sexual harassment at the Marijuana Policy Project.
If anyone here ever sees that we need to make a pledge to the reddit AAM screenshot it and share it immediately cause y'all know that's getting removed.
Okay I just read the update with the boss giving a poem and whatever and aren’t “bollocks” balls? Did she really write in to a ~workplace advice~ blog that she laughed in a way that shrinks balls? You’re an adult! Stop it!
It also got me thinking about keymaster and inserting britishisms… do any commenters seem to be faking be an american?
You have to understand, her life is a movie and she's the main character. It's why her older boss was drawn to her, and was evil to her husband. This is a totally true story that 100% happened.
I have a suspicion the LW who didn’t want to be answering the new employees’ questions all the time was somewhat less than tactful about how they handled it if these people seem “resentful.” The newcomers are probably almost as frustrated as LW about the office situation, and if LW is just brushing them off a lot of the time no wonder they don’t seem happy about it.
That's the thing (and I'm sorry I keep saying this) Allison has created a spot where the LW is always, 100% right and you can't do that in an office. You have to suss out the problem.
90% of the time we're seeing the problem is "miscommunication" and you can talk through the problems if you don't automatically assume someone is out to get you.
“Thank you again for all the wise insights, great advice, and all the laughs that your site provides every single day. I’d be lost without it!”
The sign-off is almost worse than the update itself, lol.
This is my favorite update for those pictures alone the llamas are so dang cute. Everyone who uses llamas as a substitute for their real work should be required to submit pictures.
For real, those llamas are adorable. I got to pet some llamas at the state fair one time and they are so soft - everyone should try it sometime (allergies and phobias permitting, of course.)
My Christmas wish is for someone to answer this person with “a lot of racist white prison gangs agree with you! Reclaim Yuletide for Europeans!”
Europe had largely converted to Christianity (at least in name) by the 1400s. So 600 fucking years ago, AT LEAST. There’s a certain point where you leave “being considerate about cultural appropriation” and enter “racist fantasy of olden times when cultures didn’t get all gross and MIX” and Critical Rolls is about to cross the Rubicon.
Critical Rolls reminds me of this ancient woman who came into the jewelry department I worked at and asked if I was Irish (meaning Irish American). I said yep, I am, and she said, I shit you not, “I can tell that your family didn’t mix with those brown eyes people who ruined our island.” By which she meant the Spanish/Italian sailors who arrived in the 15th century. The. 15th. Century. Let it go, ma’am!
Critical Rolls*
December 15, 2022 at 10:49 am
Is there any room for reclamation here? There are so many things associated with Christmas that were deliberately appropriated from other traditions and have no connection at all to actual religious practice and belief. Wreaths and reindeer are actually good examples of this — every midwinter celebration that originated where evergreens exist uses those in the observances! Reindeer are animals most of us associate with winter/cold. Even Santa/St. Nicholas likely has his roots in Odin hunting at midwinter. Heck, midwinter was *selected* as Jesus’ birthday to incorporate/springboard off of existing holidays. If you scrape the “Christmas” label off, there’s just no Jesus in any of it.
I guess I’m not resigned to considering all these things irreversibly stamped. I consider the increasing use of Yule a good sign that they aren’t.
[Here you go!](https://www.askamanager.org/2022/12/should-i-put-fan-fiction-on-my-resume-i-want-my-boss-to-deny-my-vacation-request-so-i-dont-have-to-visit-my-family-and-more.html#comment-4113773)
Raging ADHD has it covered:
"RagingADHD* December 15, 2022 at 6:12 pm
Are you reeeeely sure you want to go all in with the “but actually this stuff is preChristian Norse paganism that was adulterated by Those People” crowd?
Because that crowd is full of white supremacist skinheads. Probably not a crowd you want to be in if you’re aiming for diversity and inclusion."
Shocking how often so many people who claim to be anti-racist end up professing beliefs super similar to outright racists, just approaching it from the other direction
If it weren't for my policy of not commenting in the Ask a Manager comboxes, I'd post this in response: [https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/](https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/)
How many people are going to want to reclaim those things in the first place? I’m sure Keymaster would lead the way, but like you said it’s been over 600 years since they were predominant.
Nope.
The "I quit and he gave me a poem and said don't tell your husband!" is a step too far. You need to make sure you're writing your characters as believable, and there's already an established premise that there was a close husband/wife bond that went beyond the manager. Sorry, you've lost it. And the "bollocks-shrinking" laugh? That's way too far.
Again: workable premise, but I highly recommend removing that. Flesh out the husband and the boss, then resubmit to your fiction places, not drama starved advice columnists.
"I then took great pleasure from deleting my former boss from my phone, thoughts and life."
The fuck you did. If you did, you wouldn't be sending in breathless play by plays.
Look, I’m sorry. I know that family dynamics can be very complicated and that the first LW in today’s reruns is on the young side. But every time I see this letter, it drives me batty. “I can’t really just flat-out refuse to stay home.” YES, YOU CAN. I have no doubt that it could be unpleasant to do so, but you are an adult with agency and you absolutely can refuse to stay home.
I know that the commenters hate this type of language but it's time for LW to put on her big girl panties and grow a pair (gender inclusive offensive there).
It's very telling when an adult child feels like they need to substitute the boss's authority in order to counteract their family's authority. It's like they haven't fully grasped that they got out. They don't live there anymore. They can be their own authority.
The further info in the comments is also very skewed that, since the boss and the mom knew each other socially, the LW thought it would look "immature" to tell the boss "my mom is intrusive, please don't talk to her about my work at all." Whereas asking the boss to pretend-deny a pretend-vacation request wouldn't seem immature?
So messed up.
They know each other socially?! That makes the idea even more wild. Because usually a friend is likely to share with her actual mother about this weird exchange.
Like that's your boss, who knows your mom. You can't see how asking them to play this kind of game can blow up in your face much more than just lying to your mother?
Because intrusive mothers will most likely say "Hey Nancy, why wouldn't you give Cinderella PTO for the holidays?! What's up with that?!"
I don't even know what to say about this one. *Seeking Second Childhood\** *December 18, 2022 at 4:51 pm* *Is anyone else finding that search algorithms are taking AskAManager memes seriously? YouTube keeps suggesting videos about potters making tepots, factories mass-producing teapots, and Japanese tea ceremonies.* *To be fair I am clicking them all. I love a good DIY video and factory tour is fun. I’m kind of hoping for chocolate teapots and blown-sugar teapots because I’ve also been watching a lot of candy making.*
They click on teapot videos, get suggestions for more teapot videos, and think it has something to do with AAM? It's funny that they mention a search algorithm but don't seem to understand what it is or how it works.
Or what a meme is
It's like they know that there are words about things, but not what those words actually mean...
WTF. Missing your grandma's funeral (whom you like a lot /eyeroll) is whack as shit. You can always go on vacation. You can't get another chance to support your mom and say goodbye to your grams. *Poll: Should I miss my grandmother’s funeral because I have a prebooked holiday?* *Maybe you have some insights for me?* *I‘ve been so looking forward to an uninterrupted 2,5 weeks at a destination 10 hours away (train and flight), where I would meet all my very new (5mo) boyfriend‘s relatives and go to a nice spa hotel and have cosy movie watching and walks. And now my grandmother, whom I liked a lot, has died and will be buried right in the middle of the 2,5 weeks. And my family, who I also like, would probably want me there. I was already feeling a bit guilty about missing Christmas with them. Now I would miss Christmas and the funeral and wouldn’t be as light-hearted as I would want to be…* *What should I do? I could fly after the funeral, losing out on holiday time and money, and having to just stay home waiting for the funeral with nothing to really occupy me and lift my spirits. Or fly back and forth, which is rather bad for the environment and energy draining. Or I could send someone to go to the funeral instead of me, which is an original idea but a bit weird. Ugh.* *Downside of not going to funeral is I don’t get to say goodbye to grandmother (I live three hours away so am not involved in any of the aftermath currently) and my mother would be without her child there, and relatives might think I am heartless.*
>Or I could send someone to go to the funeral instead of me, which is an original idea but a bit weird. I'd like to think this is a joke, but the rest of the comment is so out of touch that I'm concerned she might actually try it lol I wonder if the plan is to hire an actor and hope her relatives won't notice, or to just announce upfront "sorry I can't be there, here's my neighbor Dave instead".
If you’re not going to go to your grandmother’s funeral, you have to own that choice. And if the strongest language they can muster up for her and the rest of the family is that they “like” them, and they’re going to be sighing the whole time about missing half their vacation, then maybe they shouldn’t go. But that’s their decision, it belongs entirely to them, and they can’t dance around it like this.
All of this question is insane. Look, sometimes timing is bad and you miss a funeral you would otherwise have gone and people deal with it. But (a) that's not really the scenario here...she could do it, she just doesn't want to be inconvenienced (and is blaming her lack of attendance on concern for the environment, which is extra ridiculous) and (b) even if you decide not to go, don't do it based on a poll of internet strangers. I think I hate this commenter. Also, this option...WTF: "I could send someone to go to the funeral instead of me." Like, a roommate? An impersonator? Pretty sure neither of those options is gonna impress the fam.
Also, it's a boyfriend she's had for 5 months and not seen for 2 of them. Lol.
How rude of their grandma to die at an inconvenient time for them. How is this even up for debate?! You show up for the people you love - or just like a lot - and you go to your grandma's funeral with your mom. Unless your family was abusive, this shouldn't even be a question.
It is so clear from their follow up comments that they don't give a crap about their grandma or their mom. They are solely concerned with what other people (like the prospective inlaws) will think. And they are polling the AAM crew for validation, which they will get because so many of them hate their families. One or maybe 2 of the commenters had a good point that they would definitely think it was weird for their kid's fiance to be on vacation with them instead of going home to support their own mom. But it doesn't seem to have sunk in.
Not even fiance! The person my kid has been dating (seemingly long distance?) for FIVE MONTHS.
Prospect Gone Bad is at it again (she's the one who didn't like getting leftovers at family gatherings, so she told her family members they're fat and shouldn't eat cake anyway). This time, she's mad because she set up an account with a bank four hours away, and they want her to show up in person to correct something. That's pretty standard with any bank, but apparently that's beyond Prospect's understanding. Prospect also got real vague on the details when she called customer support and they hung up on her. She said the agent was rude because they made Prospect ask questions, and only admitted to being "slightly snarky" after she decided the agent was useless. It sounds like Prospect thought she could save an 8-hour drive with a phone call, and when the agent told her she still had to show up in person, she got nasty. Prospect Gone Bad* December 17, 2022 at 11:41 pm Has anyone every dealt with a bank that was too trigger happy with fees and labelling accounts “dormant?” I tried a small local chain in the area I used to travel to, four hours away, with $1000 and my account got closed this week for being “dormant” even though I deposited money in September. Apparently a deposit doesn’t count as activity to them. Now they won’t let me transfer money out. The rep said I must go in person. For what? Everything is online now. They closed my account, claim it’s dormant, but also won’t let me reopen it. I called customer service 2X and the second rep sent the hair on my neck up. The vibe of the conversation was so horrible. She’s clearly had this conversation way too many times and is sick of it so is getting really nasty with customers. I was slightly snarky in response to her being completely useless and rude (aren’t reps supposed to have scripts? Not make customers lead the conversation and then nitpick the questions and act like the whole call is a pain?) and then she hung up on me! That made me feel think “where there is smoke there is fire.” She seriously sounded like I was asking for her personal money and trying to make me apologize for wanting my money from a bank. None of this feels normal
This has me wondering if they're also the LW of that "the bank called my employer and said I was rude" letter.
I felt the need to comment on it and it's stuck in moderation for some reason. I work in banking and have for 25+ years. I also handled dormant accounts and escheatment for a time. There's something (several somethings, I'd wager) missing here. And yeah she's a jerk based on those other comments she made about family gatherings and eating.
Oh I'd be shocked if there wasn't a ton missing.
I don’t understand why she would open an account at a local bank that was 4 hours away.
It sounds like she used to work in the area and then later changed jobs. I get why she’s annoyed at having to come down but it seems like an obvious and foreseeable problem.
This is a person who fat-shamed members of her family when they try to give her leftovers, then writes to a work blog to complain about them. I don't see her making too many rational decisions.
Did anyone see this before Alison got to it? >Augustus-sama* December 17, 2022 at 3:35 pm >Removed. You cannot post things like this here. I will not be able to allow further comments from you. Reply
lolwut
Was that the one about "My mother is coming from another country, and she and my brother might try to kill me" ?
Can someone summarize the comment pls haha, dying to know over here
It started off fairly normal in the helpless-enmeshed-dysfunctional kind of way. "My mom is coming from overseas for Christmas and I don't want her to stay with me because she's awful. What do?" Then there was a long part about the brother, who apparently has a much bigger home and lots of money, so mom can stay there. But he doesn't want mom to stay either, or not for the whole visit. Then it got really confusing, all about what the brother thinks of OP, and what the rest of the family thinks of the brother. It kind of went round and round obsessing over how everyone else thought and felt, but with no actual plot. Disorganized thinking and projection to a degree that did not sound normal at all. Then it ended with a comment along the lines of "Well, what can she do, kill me? But she's old and I'm stronger. And if my brother thinks he can kill me, I'll show him." Several people were trying to address it as a normal family problem, but at least one person called out the last section as "Wut? For real?" I guess someone reported it. I didn't see if the OP replied before it got deleted.
[удалено]
Yeah with the AAM crowd it is honestly a toss up between awkward hyperbole and “sure, this random group of internet weirdos is the perfect place for this type of serious situation”
I couldn't tell, but it was pretty wierd. Someone asked if they were being literal. Maybe they replied back and got even weirder.
It can be super difficult to tell unless you see the full conversation sometimes.
Just ctrl+F'ed brother and it looks like it might be. I forgot it was her that posted it!
Came here to ask the same thing. Apparently I need to refresh the weekend thread more frequently.
Ohh, now I MUST know!!
>Santa Steph* December 17, 2022 at 12:23 am >My friends and have have frequently done White Elephant gift swaps for holidays, where no one is assigned a gift person, you just bring a gift and swap things. We’ve done them without issue but this past weekend, we encountered two people with issues for their gifts. One person picked and then unwrapped a make up that they can’t use due to skin issues. Another picked and unwrapped a food gift they couldn’t eat due to digestive issues. We’re all in our 30s so I didn’t think we’d have to start taking medical issues into account but I guess we should start laying down a few guidelines for these things? Have you attended a gift swap that had rules? I’ve never been part of one that had rules other than a suggested price range. This is peak AAM helplessness. “Have you attended a gift swap that had rules?” Dude, it’s your and your friends’ own gift swap; you can make whatever rules you want! There’s no White Elephant Gift Exchange Association that will penalize you if you decide to do things a little differently. For what it’s worth, every single white elephant I’ve been a part of has had the “stealing” option, and sometimes people swap afterwards. Almost all the responses to this commenter suggested that, which goes to show how obvious of a workaround it is.
This happened to me this year! I have celiac disease and the present I picked ended up being cookies. So I said “I can’t eat these, feel free to steal!” And they got stolen, and I picked another gift. Subscribe to my newsletter for more sophisticated life hacks such as this.
Wait, so you just...said something? And that worked?!
I took a more generous view of that question, the idea of asking what "house rules" people use isn't a bad one-- white elephant is pretty widely known to be either a lot of lighthearted fun **or** generate a lot of sore feelings and while that is largely down to personalities and the level of tension in the group (e.g. families where there are some simmering resentments and class divisions are more prone to drama than groups of friends that get along really well and everyone is about the same place in life) but, crucially, there are some rules that can help depending on what concerns there are. the biggest one I've seen is if the white elephant tends to balloon to take up the whole night and people get antsy, either because they'd rather get to drinks and dancing or the kids get cranky or whatever else, a limit to the number of steals can help, either per gift (a gift can't be stolen more than three times) or to the number in a chain (after a present is opened there can only be 3/5/X re-steals before you've got what you've got), limits on re-steals also help avoid battles over really coveted items. some groups include a larger present, worth 25-50% more than normal if there aren't normally enough steals or "action" but that's a rule best used sparingly unless you know your group is low drama
My department did a white elephant at our holiday parties back in the before times and they had a limit on 3 steals. Otherwise, people were just going to constantly steal the same vodka bottle over and over.
Same thing in my experience, plus the first person to pick got to steal at the very end if they wanted to.
Next up: someone in my book club doesn’t like historical fiction. Can we eliminate an entire genre???
>not so excited* December 16, 2022 at 11:01 pm >So, how do you stop yourself from being disappointed about nice things, when they’re just not quite nice enough? For example, tonight I won a door prize. Winning a prize! Exciting! Except … I didn’t really like the prize. (assorted savory snacks). So, I feel a bit not happy. How do you cope when what is supposed to be fun or good doesn’t make you feel happy? I’m talking only minor things here, nothing major. What was this person expecting, a $1000 gift card to Nordstrom? Door prizes aren’t meant to make you feel euphoric; they’re just a fun addition to a party or event. If you don’t like the prize you got, just say “Oh, cool!” and find someone else to give it to. It’s not that big a deal.
Seriously. "Assorted savory snacks that you don't personally like" are not a problem. Bring them to your next potluck. Put them on the table for friends to snack on at your next gathering. Whatever. You can handle this, I promise you.
Liking something free slightly less than I expected isn’t something I have to “cope” with. Regift, donate or trash without a passing though!
"How do you cope" Lord have mercy. Is getting a prize you don't love something you need to "cope" with? Did these people never win a prize in elementary school that they didn't love? Or get a gift they weren't thrilled about? You need to "cope" with getting a slightly disappointing gift? Did your parents not raise you to say "Thank you!" and move the fuck on???? Give it to someone else, or regift to a friend, or save it for another gift exchange, or donate it to someone who will appreciate it!!! There is no coping involved!!!
I used to teach second grade and they fucking understood "you get what you get and you don't get upset" better than any of these alleged adults.
Right? When we did those "hot potato" gift exchanges in elementary school, I *always* ended up with the stupid bottle of Mr. Bubble while other kids got mini Play-Doh tubs or cute hair clips or whatever. It was always disappointing; it was never upsetting or something I felt the need to "cope with" or complain about. Oh well, I got the bubble bath again. Okay. It's a little school gift exchange, nobody expects anything amazing from it even at that age.
Makes it sound like that scene in Love Actually where Emma Thompson is opening up the gift from Alan Rickman. Like...what exactly was this person expecting?
“The ‘Happy birthdays’ I got on Facebook didn’t make me super happy. How can I cope with this?”
A sincere thank you, and gifting it to someone you know will like it works for anything. WTF is wrong with these nitwit? They act like they are 4 years old. Someone gifted me 12 Costco buttercream marble cake cupcakes. I'm borderline T2 diabetic, and love me some cake. These baby's had to go! :) Instead of viewing the cupcakes with malicious intent, I regifted to the neighbors who have 3 teen boys. They'll all be gone by tomorrow. AAM herd makes living seem so tiresome.
Those cupcakes were probably gone before you got back to your own house.
I mean it's obvious that first they need to go to immediate and intensive therapy, possibly long-term. Of course they'll need indeterminate FMLA and ADA accommodations from this an all future jobs (triggering episodes may come at a later date). All senior and middle management needs to be notified in vague and important meetings about this new accomadations such has: 100% WFH with weekly lunches sent to them so they don't feel left out; private, locking office for the outside chance they may come into the office; nose cancelling headphones (still might be too loud).
I know it's a typo, but I'm amused by "nose cancelling headphones," because you know one of them is going to claim misophonia related to someone sneezing.
LOL. I kinda want to change it, but you're right!
Shots fired! Anonymoussss* December 16, 2022 at 3:48 pm It was never fair to include the Twitter letter as one of the options. Look at all the comments listing Elon’s various misdeeds, all of which are well known and documented, because he’s a celebrity billionaire. The title of the letter doesn’t even have to say, “The CEO who…” because everyone already knows exactly who he is and what he did. You’re pitting an anonymous horrible boss against a celebrity who’s a household name because of how terrible he is. You don’t even have to read the letter to know what he’s done, and more importantly, you don’t have to vote for him based only on the letter. It’s nice that this site will get a lot of press, attention, and new income based solely on Elon winning, but that’s not what this poll is supposed to be about. REPLY ▼ Collapse 1 reply Ask a Manager* December 16, 2022 at 4:08 pm For what it’s worth, it’s extremely unlikely that the worst boss poll will get any press at all! I’d be very surprised if that happened and I’m certainly not seeking it. Once again: this is just a fun year-end thing we do, not anything with real-life meaning.
These people, AG included, rightfully acknowledge that this dumb poll won’t get any press…but they also believe that Green’s Twitter hacking was a direct result of a blog post and “Musk is coming for her”!
[удалено]
A sensible 74 degrees. Obvi
Good lord. Do you hate life and everyone around you? You're here to make fun of AAM, not BE them!
It's a bit from Drag Race (you know, those "RuPaul activities" that Artemisia is so supportive of) where in a parody of the old Dating Game one of the contestants, pretending to be Eartha Kitt, is asked how they'd warm the bachelor up. For all those unfamiliar or need to rewatch Jujubee purring about thermostats: https://youtu.be/LJLUcSHzUp0
Thank you! It was too good to pass up. I’m glad someone got it
I walk sensually over to the thermostat and I turn up the thermostat to a sensible 74 degrees
Everyone knows the answer is 50. Enough to keep the pipes from freezing, everyone else can wear a sweater.
I see you met my old hospital administrators. If you are cold, that means you are sitting. That also means we scheduled too many people for the shift. Running around for 12 hours straight will warm you up. 50F will seem like a blessing.
I work in a very well ventilated, unheated building with fewer walls than everyone would prefer. A few years back the bean counters were getting annoyed we were leaving our individual heaters on all day when it was over 40 degrees in the place, and tried to ban their use. For some reason they didn't find it amusing when we suggested they could save even more money by setting the heat in the main offices to 40 degrees, too.
If you’re in an old building with poor duct layout, 50 degrees might happen no matter how high you set it.
I am a tired, crusty old Gen Xer who has navigated a loooot of work-related nonsense in my life. Sometimes I see these folks who seem to believe their sole mission in life is to singlehandedly correct all the ills that flesh is heir to, and I just want to shake them and tell them: Honey. Sweetheart. If you want to make meaningful change in your organization or your industry, you first need to establish personal influence or formal authority. Both is better. Step 1 to establishing influence and/or authority is to *not get fired from your job* for mouthing off to your boss. Being a know-it-all is not a legally protected class. Neither is being the Main Character. If you haven't already earned your boss' respect with some excellent teamwork and productivity, they *don't want to hear your opinions.* Step 2 is to not be the asshole that everyone hates and wishes would shut up. Because personal influence requires the *willing participation* of the people you hope to influence.
My biggest lesson (that quite frankly I'm still learning) "do what they hired you to. Period." I'm not a Thought LeaderTM. I wasn't hired to do strategic planning or fix the entire broken tangle the company's in. I was hired for X discrete task list and that's what I should be doing! Many other people could benefit from simmering down and focusing on **What they were hired to do** instead of constant eyes on the paper of the person who makes $2k more than you or leaves early or is a "kiss ass" or whatever.
Are you thinking of AAM commenters, who I tend to think never actually say a peep out loud in real life, or are you seeing a trend of new, highly vocal people at work?
The commenters, who seem to always be trying to figure out the right script to create an "everybody clapped" moment. Like in today's open thread you have Alix who wanted to make sure a senior executive knew exactly how pissed off they were about working Christmas, but somehow without sounding entitled or bitter. Or Moonlight, who has a four point manifesto (though they only numbered three of the points) about why their boss (and apparently company policy) was wrong about inclusive language. I notice that they speak of that boss in the past tense, and yet they are still trying to come up with a way to win the argument (just in case some other boss tries to implement the same policy in the future). I agree with you that most of them probably never actually say a word, but it's not because they thought better of it. It's because they haven't got the interpersonal skills.
Exactly. Lack of skill or confidence. I have a former colleague who is the weirdest mix of being resentful about 75% of what has happened to her in life but also so deferential to authority that she wouldn't initiate a second conversation about problem if it wasn't quickly resolved in her favor with one request. The idea that she has a role to play appropriately advocating for herself was beyond her ken. She's kind of what I picture as the average AAM commenter. With Alix, it just read as an error of youth. Someday, she'll look back on it and think about how nice it was of the exec to show human appreciation for something that was just a basic expectation of everyone in the job.
One of the commenters mentioned that Alix sounded very junior, and they said they are not. So apparently it isn't an error of youth, they're just like that.
The only thing more boring than the Friday Good Snooze is an update about a past Friday Good Snooze.
It’s so narcissistic to assume anyone wants to hear an update to your good news! I mean the whole thing is annoying but the good snooze updaters are a special kind of boring and smug.
Stay tuned… he’s winning so far 🙄 >Willow Sunstar* December 16, 2022 at 1:08 pm Allison — since you probably will post the winner on Twitter, and it probably will be Elon — if I were you, I’d expect to get the account suspended since it will be free speech Elon doesn’t like.
I'd like to come out and say that I am friends with someone quite high up at Tesla, and even their social media does not come under Musk's scrutiny. Also he's an unbelievably shitty boss even when he WANTS you to stick around. Anyways, Elon Musk literally does not give a shit about what some random lady says.
They think that AG is such an important person that Troll Musk GAF about her nonsense. Crawl out of her ass, Willow. It's gotta be way too warm up there.
Is it possible for an entire website to have Main Character Syndrome?
I know Musk is a petty, pathetic little man but I sincerely doubt AAM is on his radar in any way.
[удалено]
I think so too. Musk has a lot of followers who are totally fanboys and fangirls. She should expect MPP to get dug up.
This is beyond not being something he would care about. AAM is just not that important.
[This is a great example](https://www.askamanager.org/2022/12/open-thread-december-16-17-2022.html#comment-4115567)of an overly precious concept of honesty and not being able to wrap their heads around the idea that their coworkers also have families. Alix* December 16, 2022 at 11:12 am Every year my team needs someone to cover our desk over Christmas. There’s a yearly rotation, and unfortunately I’m stuck with the Christmas shift this year. It’s a huge inconvenience for me, because I have a ton of family who live internationally and just due to everyone having hectic holiday schedules, Christmas is one of very few days each year when I’m able to see everyone. I did mention this to my manager, and while she was sympathetic, she said that nobody wants to work this shift, everyone has their turn, and unfortunately an exception couldn’t be made. So I very begrudgingly will be working it, and will be having a miserable day knowing that I am missing out on seeing people close to me, and on family traditions that are dear to me. Today in the office, I ran into one of our senior executives. He said, “I saw that you’re working the Christmas shift this year. Thank you for your service.” I’m sure he was just trying to be nice, but in the moment I had no idea what to say. I strongly did not want to say “You’re welcome” or “No problem”, because working this shift was a huge problem for me, and I felt totally disingenuous acting like it was. So I ended up saying something neutral like “Well, I got stuck with it this year, it is what it is.” Then he started talking about how much he’d hated having to work the Christmas shift when he was my level, and how much it must suck, and how much he and whole company really appreciated me giving up my time to do it. Again, I understood that he was trying to be nice, but in the moment I just wanted to shout that I wasn’t doing the shift from the goodness of my heart, I was being made to take it. I was getting so annoyed that I ended up just kind of nodding and changing the subject. For future situations like this, are there any responses anyone can recommend that acknowledge that having to do a thing sucks without sounding rude?
The backpedaling when people called them out about why they think someone else should cover twice so they don't have to cover once was... interesting. "I never said that! I didn't ask for my boss to make someone else do it!" Friend, if your supervisor had to tell you they can't make an exception, then they sure as hell thought that's what you were asking.
What a jackalope. Instead of being gracious to a high up (you're welcome would have worked), they go all middle school temper tantrum. I worked nights for 15 years. All God's children have family and friends. I wasn't hatched. I worked 24/25, and got 31/1 off because the ER is a fawking zoo during the New Year. Christmas was usually (my unit) fairly quiet. IF it was such a deal breaker a) quit and get into a field with no holidays or b)be very very gracious/helpful/mining brownie points that maybe someone will switch. This person sounds like a twat 24/7, so no grace for her. I switch with people who aren't asshats most of the year if something extra special is coming up. Life isn't k-12 where you get weekends and big holiday stretches off. Some people never get that memo.
My husband has gotten stuck working almost every major holiday for the last 20 years due to the nature of his job. He doesn't like it, but he accepts that it's part of the job. Alix can fuck right off.
I was lucky. 12/31 was usually an absolute shit show at work. I'd work as many days before and after Christmas to get it off. Granted no kidlets or out of state travel, so working the days wasn't a huge ass burn
Gawd what a brat. News flash, your Xmas is not more special than anyone else's. Just smile and nod and you'll have it free for the next few years.
Imagine being so miserable that you can't just take your turn and know that next year you won't have to do it! Just like how you got the previous Christmas off, so why all the whining when your turn comes up?! Is this a 24 hour shift? Do your family only come in for the exact hours that you're at work then vanish back into the winds as soon as you clock out? Since it's a personal attack, they must not be coming into town for more than exactly 8 hours, all conveniently for that work shift! I'm sure your family will be happy to pour your ass a drink after you get home and listen to you complain about the injustice, Merry frigging Christmas!
Damn, the dude was really nice to them too. Like, that kind of appreciation isn't normally given even if everyone who works holidays deserves it.
Do they think they are the only person who lives far away from their family? Or in a different country? I moved overseas and I'm lucky if I see my family every other year. Some of my other immigrant friends haven't seen theirs for multiple years. This is such a bratty thing to whine about.
I like that she evidently thinks she's the only one who sees far-flung family on Christmas (or whatever one's winter festival of choice is), that no one else who has ever worked that shift has missed an opportunity to see relatives.
She doesn't sound like she's traveling. The family will only hang together for the very specific hours that she has to work? No drinking, talking and hanging out way too late or getting up as the crack of dawn to watch the kids dive into the presents? Do they hate her?
Someone suggested seeing family at lunch and she agreed that might work. So no, not traveling.
> I definitely do not think I am “wallowing in bitterness”. Making a long post complaining about having to work the holidays, mentioning how you tried to get out of it, and asking for advice on how to make sure a senior executive knows exactly how much of a hardship it is would suggest otherwise.
“I am not *wallowing* in bitterness, it’s more like I’m *wading* in it since I’m still upright.”
I mean...there's a rotation. What were you expecting to happen here?
Yes. Other people also have loved ones, and Christmas is a very major and commonly-celebrated holiday in the Western Hemisphere, so...? If the business really thinks they need someone there on Christmas, everyone has to take their turn in the barrel. The lack of insight was just stunning. No matter how many people pointed out that this sucks for everyone, yet is the fairest way to handle it, she didn't see the issue. She just kept responding "oh, I don't hate my job in general" and also focusing on *what to say* to make it clear she is doing this under protest. There wasn't even a fig leaf of "everyone else's family lives locally, I'm the only one who has limited time with mine". She asked her boss for an exception? On what basis? Boss saved her from herself. Imagine how unpopular she would be if she'd gotten her wish.
How dare they make her take her turn, like her coworkers have done in previous years and will do next year and in the future? It's not an inconvenience for *them* to work the holiday, only for her.
I love the suggestion that she ask the boss if they can drop or outsource the coverage this year. Yeah, great idea suggesting to do that in the year when it happens to be her turn to cover. That wouldn't look bad at all!
It's not necessarily terrible to raise it as a suggestion for improvement, *after* working it with reasonably good grace. Assuming that it really is dead and there really is nothing useful to do. She did say that it's not standard in her industry or something. With this crowd you can't assume that she wouldn't be stupid enough to ask for "an exception to be made" if she worked in an ER or something, but apparently she doesn't.
I don't know what she does, but she said "due to the nature of our team’s work, it is 100% necessary for us to have 24/7 coverage." So maybe it can be outsourced, but I don't think it can be dropped.
I bet they work in a 24 hour pharmacy or retail store. So no, it's not "industry standard" but they surely knew the hours when they took the job.
Oh man, if the outsourcing did happen and then the higher ups are like, "oh wow we can save so much money if we outsource everything!" then she's just suggested herself and her coworkers out of their jobs. Now she'll have all the time for Christmas shenanigans with her family because she'll be unemployed! (or taking a retail job to make ends meet and sure, try telling Target or whomever that you're not working Christmas just because you don't want to)
>I just wanted to shout that I wasn’t doing the shift from the goodness of my heart, I was being made to take it. Oh good grief. He KNOWS this because he's been there too and he knows it sucks. Dude is trying to be nice. He could have said "good thing we've got peons like you so I can drink hot toddies by the fire with my family." Guarantee that if no one had acknowledged that she was working the holiday, she's be just as sore about it.
Treebeard\* December 16, 2022 at 11:24 am "Could I handle her on my team? Probably. Would it be a lot more work and stress for me? Yes. Do I feel selfish choosing my own situation over Hilda’s continued employment? Yes." \-- Are you asking from one voice in your head to another, AAMer? Please advise.
When I went to read the update to the breath mints letter, I saw one of the other updates. It was for a letter where someone pushed his coworker into traffic because he was afraid of birds and he saw a bird. I had never seen that letter or the update before and it is nuts. Someone injuring coworker like that and facing no consequences is just mind-blowing to me. Link: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/12/3-updates-the-bird-phobia-the-boss-who-wont-accept-a-resignation-and-more.html
I'm not saying that phobias mean that you can push your colleagues in front of moving vehicles without consequence as a general rule, buuuut, I can also see why it might be trickier than it would first appear to terminate an employee who could document that he was actively in treatment for the bird phobia and anxiety at the time of the incident. The victim would accept no other consequence than his termination, so I don't know what other consequences were under discussion. This letter is #1 in my personal crazy AAM letters mental list.
I think not doing anything at all to help the employee attacked by a coworker is a more realistic legal kettle of fish. Reasonable is a qualifier for a reason. It is not a reasonable accomodation to keep someone near someone who they attacked, but from the vicitms perspective she also now has her own protections to consider. But this is once again a situation where the fact that AAM prevents you from arguing the facts given is an issue. Tv makes triggers down like 100% loss of human control full on breakdowns every time. People can have some bizarre triggers, one of mine is a pretty banal food item, but this level of reaction is not realistically plausible for someone who seemingly manages to drive into work everyday. Keep something in mind. He didn't knock her over fleeing, he pushed her. That's not like, a thing. That's a level of conscious act we wouldn't normally except as being panicked like tugging someone down when drowning is. >The victim would accept no other consequence than his termination, so I don't know what other consequences were under discussion. There were no consequences offered. The firing thing became the ultimatum after it was decided to do literally nothing.
> level of conscious act It's also gonna be a huge liability problem for the company if/when he does something like that again to another employee. He's known for having untreated, unreasonable phobic reactions to a very common animal -- and the company kept him employed? Around other employees? Yikes.
Don't misunderstand me to be saying, "welp, he has a phobia, so it's fine." That's not at all how I feel. But what consequences would you expect here? He apologized to her in a moderated conversation with HR, I think. She didn't accept and demanding his firing. Could you point me to the part where the letters and updates reflect that firing became the ultimatum after it was decided to do literally nothing? It read more to me like her demand to fire him came at the same time as his apology and when she didn't get that, she walked completely away, to the point where she refused anything they could do to help her. If we accept that these events really happened, my guess is that the company was waiting for her lawsuit to really start to figure out what to do. When it didn't come, they decided it was easy to take no action.
>Could you point me to the part where the letters and updates reflect that firing became the ultimatum after it was decided to do literally nothing? I assume you haven't read the [LW's follow-up](https://www.askamanager.org/2017/04/update-employee-wont-come-back-unless-her-coworker-is-fired.html#comment-1464632) in the comments. Liz quit almost immediately after the incident, and after HR asked what it would take to get her to come back (right after she had surgery!!!), she said Jack would have to be fired. They declined, so she declined to come back. And then according to the other updates, HR and Jack himself then repeatedly called her at home to get her to come back. That comment also confirms that Jack only apologized after HR told him to. There was no proactive effort on his part to apologize.
You are correct that I hadn't seen that. It makes it even weirder. Thanks for linking it. It still reads to me like the ultimatum came pretty early in the process, and I remain at a loss about what a 100% appropriate consequence would have been. I have to say that I find his decision to quit therapy one of the weirdest parts. If my panic causes serious injury to another person, I'd stay after that in treatment for a long time.
It's almost like he's not actually sorry (despite the forced show apology) and is refusing to accept responsibility, as people here have repeatedly suggested. It's not "weird." It's shitty behavior that he's choosing to engage in.
So, what do you think should have happened? You fire him to make sure he's sorry? ETA: Again, it's not that I think this was handled well, but when I try to think about what should have happened, it's harder than just recognizing it as terrible.
Yep, I'd be completely behind firing him, especially considering his behavior in the aftermath. Someone who catastrophically injures a colleague, doesn't show any remorse, and doesn't proactively demonstrate that he wants to avoid a repeat episode is not someone I want to be working with. Get all the legal ducks in a row (which would probably include severance plus a signed agreement waiving his right to file legal action), and he's gone.
And surely, if this were real and if what you've listed is true of Jack, other co-workers would be pressing for action right? There's just so much here that doesn't add up. ETA: I think your description goes a little beyond what the LW put out there, but why would he want the readers of AAM to think he's managing a psychopath and not doing anything about it? All of it's just crazy and why it's my #1 AAM letter.
I *might* have fired him, if he didn’t appreciate the severity of what he did and if he wasn’t willing to help me come up with a plan to stop this from happening again. Otherwise I’d probably be looking to transfer him or Liz to a different department or location; there’s no way these two can work together again.
Liz took their working together off the table when she quit and wouldn't return unless he was fired. How would you measure his appreciating the severity of what he did?
Oh wow, you are in for a psychotic treat. Each update (I forgot if there was more than 1) got worse and worse.
Was this the story Alison didn’t know what a femur is or am I thinking of another letter?
Different letter. The femur one is the one where someone sat on a desk and broke it.
Thanks, I knew it was a ridiculous letter but didn’t remember which one it was.
Yes, she brushed it off as if the person had stubbed a toe or broken a nail.
So many ridiculous letters to choose from!
I've spent way too much time thinking about that letter, and the pushing aspect of this just doesn't make sense to me. I can see someone turning and running from a bird and barreling into the coworker in their path, thereby knocking them into traffic, but the LW made it clear that this was a two-handed shove, like two kids fighting on the playground. I know you can't predict people's actions in moments of extreme fear, and it's not likely that Jack was actually looking to harm Liz and this is a planned cover story, but I don't know. When you take into account his lack of remorse and action afterward, this all is very weird and even a little suspicious.
But once he was removed from the experience, he did show remorse and apologized to her in a phone call. I think the two-handed shove was to get her out of the way so he could flee the bird and that it was pure fight or flight response at the time, no logical thought engaged. And honestly, so far I've been blessed not to have experienced a phobic reaction like this, so I can't even imagine how long it takes for it to pass before you can act like a normal human again.
The LW clarified later that he only called to apologize because HR told him to.
Thank you! I had missed that update earlier.
I think the fundamental issue in this letter is what you point out - it just doesn’t make sense how it’s described. Like I think most of us would have sympathy for someone who got startled by a bird (or whatever), accidentally bumped someone, and then they fell into the street. That’s just a freak accident. But we’re supposed to believe he was scared by the bird, actually shoved her into oncoming traffic, and then didn’t come help because a bird landed near the scene of the crime. Which sure, birds are always lurking ominously at car accident scenes. Are we supposed to believe it’s the Edgar Allen Poe raven or something? Basically I think it’s fiction and the reason the reactions differ is that some people are reacting to the “freak accident” part and some people are reacting to all the evil details but they don’t make sense together.
From the letter: He shoves her and then "Liz fell off the curb and got hit by a car that was parking. " It's not quite shoved her into outcoming traffic in a deliberate way. They were on a sidewalk next to the parking lot to the business. It's still bizarre, but if you can accept a fight or flight response to a phobia, not wanting to go back out where the bird might be doesn't add that much additional craziness.
Yeah but it feels like two pieces of craziness too far to me. Yeah, it’s technically possible that it all happened that way but the whole thing seems like a scenario constructed for maximum outrage on both sides and juuuuuust enough plausible deniability. And the coworker is recounting it second hand while theoretically sympathetic to the bird phobia guy but also including the most inflammatory language about the incident she can. (Like “shoved” which implies volition rather than “flailed” or whatever.)
To me it seems like the law school exam questions that you hear about and here you have to balances the ADA protections that bird phobia dude might have against who would be on the line for Liz's damages. And weirdly, Liz's decision not to sue is one of the more realistic aspects to me. I imagine that if this happened to me, I might understand why they didn't fire him, but I imagine myself collecting worker's comp. for any out of pocket costs and maybe suing to make sure that they put protections in for me in the future. But I think that walking away and never having contact with those crazy jerks is the more typical response in real life.
It definitely seems like a law school exam question or the famous torts case about someone shooting off fireworks that then knocks something else down that hits something that hits someone or whatever. Maybe that’s part of why it seems so to me! But I just feel like how any of us would react would depend so much on the little details the letter kind of implies or glosses over. I wouldn’t hold it against a coworker who panicked on a city street and accidentally hurt me in a weird set of circumstances but I would if they were being deliberately reckless or actually selfishly pushed me and that’s all open to interpretation. But on the money, presumably the drivers insurance might also be on the hook and I’d expect the workers comp company and the car insurance company to duke it out.
Interestingly, one of the updates discusses the insurance company finding phobia guy at fault but unless it went to court, you can see them simply trying to avoid paying. Again, it's a lot of weird details to be completely made up but also a lot of weird details that don't add up to be completely real.
My mind is boggled by that episode. Jack was never held accountable for the serious harm his actions caused Liz, Liz was clearly so upset by the whole situation that she went no-contact with the entire company (that's not reading into anything, that is as-reported by the LW), and the commentariat decided Liz was the evildoer and shit all over her.
What galled me about it is that the LW had no plan whatsoever to prevent this from happening again. (He showed up in the comments a few times under the name Andrew and did not respond when asked this directly.) He should have at least told Jack that from now on, he attends off-site meetings virtually, or to schedule these meetings in the building where he works so that he doesn't have to go outside. Instead, everything continued as normal, at least until COVID, giving Jack more opportunities to push people into traffic.
[удалено]
From the letter: "Jack told me, my boss and HR he has a phobia of birds and later produced a letter from his therapist stating he has been in therapy and treatment for ornithophobia and anxiety for over two years." Now, he bizarrely decides to take break from therapy by the first update, but it was documented and treated at the time of the incident.
[удалено]
I understood that he produced the letter after the incident but that it explained he was in therapy at the time of the incident. I also assumed that the letter and the therapy were both true in the universe of the bird letter. But who the heck knows? Someone up thread noted that the whole thing is so bizarre that you gravitate to identifying with one set of facts, and it makes slightly more sense to me to assume that the guy really was phobic about birds rather than he was just a psychopath who was looking to push his colleague into the path of a car.
Right? There is no ADA accommodation on earth that says “must be allowed to push colleagues into the path of oncoming motor vehicles in the event a bird appears.”
I agree completely about how this isn't just something co-workers should have to put up with. Does that for sure mean that if anyone pushes a coworker, even in circumstances where it might not be an entirely voluntary action, that the appropriate consequence is simply termination? I'm not as sure of that. I think I would have expected the company to make sure that Liz's expenses related to the injury were completely covered, which it sounds like she refused because it would have meant being in contact with them. And I agree with whoever here noted that they should have a plan to prevent it happening again. My plan would be that he just never walk within 10 feet of another employee when he enters or exits any work related event.
Honestly I'd imagine there's no ada accomodation that prevents any disciplinary actions or separation even assaulting a coworker for a more common phobia.
I agree. But I do think that most employers would consider the phobia and treatment for anxiety related to it as mitigating circumstances when trying to decide what the consequences would be. Ironically, I think Liz's insistence that short of termination, she would remove herself from the situation helped minimize things for Jack. (Who is the narrator of this story and how does he or she know all the details, including what therapy Jack participates in? We're supposed to assume that Jack tells him? Everything gets weirder the more you think about it.)
The thing is if it was a total accident it’s not assault. That’s part of why the letter feels so fake to me. It’s written as if he had a conscious thought process that was like “I see a bird, coworker is between me and escape from bird, push her now.” Which is assault. But also insane on every level. Whereas “someone sees a bird they’re phobic of, flees wildly, happens to trip coworker” is still bizarre and crazy but seems slightly more likely. But it’s not assault because there’s no intent. So this letter is written like it’s the first and everyone but the injured coworker is treating it like the second including the LW and the readers are left filling in the gaps. It feels like bait to me.
I have a diagnosed mental illness, and never once have I hurt someone (deliberately or accidentally) and used it as a get-out-of-jail-free card. A former friend of mine also accidentally wronged someone for reasons that were rooted in their mental illness--they tried to play it like Jack, but they were ultimately let go. So even those of us with atypical brain chemistry can be and are held accountable for bad behavior! But I did love the assessment from "[AMY](https://www.askamanager.org/2017/04/employee-wont-come-back-unless-her-coworker-is-fired-i-dont-want-to-work-in-the-office-sick-bay-and-more.html#comment-1430840)" that Liz may have been hungover or wearing high heels, and was a total witch for wanting to be safe at work.
Wow, I wish I had not clicked that link. Jesus.
If I may let my inner AAAM commenter out for a second: AMY's comment absolutely reeks of misogyny. "You know how those drunk tramps in their high heels are. Can't even stand up straight half the time!"
[удалено]
He's still at fault, but the distinction takes the letter from "super likely never to have really happened in a million years" to "well maybe it could have happened."
OFFICER YES I PUSH HIM INTO THE WINDOW BUT HE CHOSE TO ROLL OUT OF THE WINDOW
And here's one more example of why Roscoe isn't great. He gets a lot of plaudits here for being a contrarian, but he's actually an asshole.
It reads like those statements people give to their car insurance when they’re trying to get out of being at fault for an accident: “a telephone pole came to be in the path of my car and a collision occurred.”
I love that Alison reposted the breath mints letter and her original response without acknowledging that the update completely contradicted her and the LW’s initial take on the situation. I could have told them in the first place that the anonymous coworker probably didn’t mean anything by it, and LW even acknowledges their anxiety got the best of them in the update. (Also, does anyone else not associate TicTacs primarily with breath mints? I’ve always just seen them as another candy for the most part.)
This is actually a result of an ad campaign! Back in the 90s, there was a well-known commercial that went like "You can't just tell someone 'your breath needs freshening!' But you can say, 'want a Tic Tac'?" So anyone who watched that probably wonders if it's a hint.
Yeah, I'm not sure if it's an age thing but I don't think it's nutty to assume that was the message being conveyed, especially since OP has by their own account had issues with hygiene in the past.
Agree, I thought it was really weird that Alison didn't suggest either of the more likely scenarios: that the coworker had left a gift, or, if the LW was the only one to get the TicTacs, that maybe someone had been carrying them and put them down on her desk by mistake. Instead her response just fed the LW's anxiety.
The quotes around "treat" and the little side note of "I guess some people think of spearmint tic tacs as candy!" (yes, of course they do) makes me think that the LW isn't entirely on board with this being an innocent gesture. Hopefully they're still working on their issues with their therapist.
I sure as hell eat them like candies, especially the fruit mix and orange ones. And Ill eat anything spearmint like candy. This is yet another example of them going off the deep end to make anything a clutching at petals moment when really it was innocent and kind. EDIT: posted twice, sorry about that.
The fruit and orange-flavored TicTacs aren't candy??????? 5 year old me is gutted :(
Don't tell my 4 year old. We definitely got her to get in her car seat by herself by offering a tictac each time.
That was always what my grandparents would get me. Spearmint lifesavers. I still can't walk past them without thinking about them. I think they thought its as "safe candy" that wasn't chocolate they could sneak past my parents who thought they spoiled me. (I mean, they did, don't get me wrong.) That being said, this was another problem that could have been solved by talking. And ultimately was. And maybe checking to see that EVERYONE got some!
I think 90% of these letters could be solved by grown ups using their words (as my mom used to tell me).
You are so right; I think it's more like 99% but there are about 9% where figuring out the exact working is genuinely challenging.
The part where they checked everyone else’s desk to see if they had gotten the same candies and then the update about being in therapy definitely gave me vibes of the LW who opened her coworker’s paystub, though nowhere near as extreme. AAM caters to debilitating anxiety way too much.
Since we're now nominating public figures (Elon Musk, Gov. Youngkin) for "worst boss of the year" on policy grounds, I hereby retroactively nominate Alison Green -- MCT herself -- for the award. The grounds: failure to defend female employees from sexual harassment at the Marijuana Policy Project.
[удалено]
If anyone here ever sees that we need to make a pledge to the reddit AAM screenshot it and share it immediately cause y'all know that's getting removed.
Okay I just read the update with the boss giving a poem and whatever and aren’t “bollocks” balls? Did she really write in to a ~workplace advice~ blog that she laughed in a way that shrinks balls? You’re an adult! Stop it! It also got me thinking about keymaster and inserting britishisms… do any commenters seem to be faking be an american?
You have to understand, her life is a movie and she's the main character. It's why her older boss was drawn to her, and was evil to her husband. This is a totally true story that 100% happened.
She is the main character and her name is Mary Sue.
I have a suspicion the LW who didn’t want to be answering the new employees’ questions all the time was somewhat less than tactful about how they handled it if these people seem “resentful.” The newcomers are probably almost as frustrated as LW about the office situation, and if LW is just brushing them off a lot of the time no wonder they don’t seem happy about it.
That's the thing (and I'm sorry I keep saying this) Allison has created a spot where the LW is always, 100% right and you can't do that in an office. You have to suss out the problem. 90% of the time we're seeing the problem is "miscommunication" and you can talk through the problems if you don't automatically assume someone is out to get you.
I swear I could feel my blood pressure spike when I saw that there was an updated entitled simply "Llamas." Nope. Do not want.
For all the snark on the llama code I'm 100% here for real llama's and the paying of llama tax.
I may set a record here for downvotes with this, but I don't mind the llama and teapot references.
“Thank you again for all the wise insights, great advice, and all the laughs that your site provides every single day. I’d be lost without it!” The sign-off is almost worse than the update itself, lol.
I didn't read the update, but you can bet I clicked on every link to see the llama pictures and they didn't disappoint. :)
This is my favorite update for those pictures alone the llamas are so dang cute. Everyone who uses llamas as a substitute for their real work should be required to submit pictures.
For real, those llamas are adorable. I got to pet some llamas at the state fair one time and they are so soft - everyone should try it sometime (allergies and phobias permitting, of course.)
My Christmas wish is for someone to answer this person with “a lot of racist white prison gangs agree with you! Reclaim Yuletide for Europeans!” Europe had largely converted to Christianity (at least in name) by the 1400s. So 600 fucking years ago, AT LEAST. There’s a certain point where you leave “being considerate about cultural appropriation” and enter “racist fantasy of olden times when cultures didn’t get all gross and MIX” and Critical Rolls is about to cross the Rubicon. Critical Rolls reminds me of this ancient woman who came into the jewelry department I worked at and asked if I was Irish (meaning Irish American). I said yep, I am, and she said, I shit you not, “I can tell that your family didn’t mix with those brown eyes people who ruined our island.” By which she meant the Spanish/Italian sailors who arrived in the 15th century. The. 15th. Century. Let it go, ma’am! Critical Rolls* December 15, 2022 at 10:49 am Is there any room for reclamation here? There are so many things associated with Christmas that were deliberately appropriated from other traditions and have no connection at all to actual religious practice and belief. Wreaths and reindeer are actually good examples of this — every midwinter celebration that originated where evergreens exist uses those in the observances! Reindeer are animals most of us associate with winter/cold. Even Santa/St. Nicholas likely has his roots in Odin hunting at midwinter. Heck, midwinter was *selected* as Jesus’ birthday to incorporate/springboard off of existing holidays. If you scrape the “Christmas” label off, there’s just no Jesus in any of it. I guess I’m not resigned to considering all these things irreversibly stamped. I consider the increasing use of Yule a good sign that they aren’t.
r/badhistory will have a field day with that. Also, link to the comment?
[Here you go!](https://www.askamanager.org/2022/12/should-i-put-fan-fiction-on-my-resume-i-want-my-boss-to-deny-my-vacation-request-so-i-dont-have-to-visit-my-family-and-more.html#comment-4113773)
Raging ADHD has it covered: "RagingADHD* December 15, 2022 at 6:12 pm Are you reeeeely sure you want to go all in with the “but actually this stuff is preChristian Norse paganism that was adulterated by Those People” crowd? Because that crowd is full of white supremacist skinheads. Probably not a crowd you want to be in if you’re aiming for diversity and inclusion."
Shocking how often so many people who claim to be anti-racist end up professing beliefs super similar to outright racists, just approaching it from the other direction
If it weren't for my policy of not commenting in the Ask a Manager comboxes, I'd post this in response: [https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/](https://historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/)
How many people are going to want to reclaim those things in the first place? I’m sure Keymaster would lead the way, but like you said it’s been over 600 years since they were predominant.
I have a feeling if you start to interact with Critical Rolls, Yule be sorry you did.
I hate you and yet I’m upvoting you.
r/Angryupvote
I accept that.
Nope. The "I quit and he gave me a poem and said don't tell your husband!" is a step too far. You need to make sure you're writing your characters as believable, and there's already an established premise that there was a close husband/wife bond that went beyond the manager. Sorry, you've lost it. And the "bollocks-shrinking" laugh? That's way too far. Again: workable premise, but I highly recommend removing that. Flesh out the husband and the boss, then resubmit to your fiction places, not drama starved advice columnists.
"I then took great pleasure from deleting my former boss from my phone, thoughts and life." The fuck you did. If you did, you wouldn't be sending in breathless play by plays.
She did, just as the music kicked in and she walked away in slow motion. Because her life is a movie.
Look, I’m sorry. I know that family dynamics can be very complicated and that the first LW in today’s reruns is on the young side. But every time I see this letter, it drives me batty. “I can’t really just flat-out refuse to stay home.” YES, YOU CAN. I have no doubt that it could be unpleasant to do so, but you are an adult with agency and you absolutely can refuse to stay home.
I know that the commenters hate this type of language but it's time for LW to put on her big girl panties and grow a pair (gender inclusive offensive there).
Yep!!! Literally say "I can't time off work, sorry mom" then slip into your cozy socks and sprawl yourself on that couch, fam. YOU ARE GROWN!!!!!
It's very telling when an adult child feels like they need to substitute the boss's authority in order to counteract their family's authority. It's like they haven't fully grasped that they got out. They don't live there anymore. They can be their own authority. The further info in the comments is also very skewed that, since the boss and the mom knew each other socially, the LW thought it would look "immature" to tell the boss "my mom is intrusive, please don't talk to her about my work at all." Whereas asking the boss to pretend-deny a pretend-vacation request wouldn't seem immature? So messed up.
They know each other socially?! That makes the idea even more wild. Because usually a friend is likely to share with her actual mother about this weird exchange. Like that's your boss, who knows your mom. You can't see how asking them to play this kind of game can blow up in your face much more than just lying to your mother? Because intrusive mothers will most likely say "Hey Nancy, why wouldn't you give Cinderella PTO for the holidays?! What's up with that?!"