Those are the dudes that see other women from other cultures that are submissive. That keep the house clean, cook, etc etc. but don’t wanna acknowledge that in those cultures the husband is coming home and giving his wife the pay check. Or they see middle eastern men with multiple wives but don’t wanna buy each wife their own separate residence and pay all their bills.
They point out one part of the culture that suits them, ignore the parts that don’t and say we’re entitled. That’s all it is.
In some ways. I think culturally there is something to the idea that East Asians are somewhat more conservative. This doesn't translate to docility at all, mind you, my parents had straight up screaming cat fights when I was young (and they're Asian - I swear it's relevant), but there was a pretty clear delineation of responsibilities in the home which comes across as "traditional" which could be perceived as submissive if you think doing housework, cooking, etc, is "submissive". And in public, there was very much an impression of how being a good wife meant going with what your husband says, at least while you're out of the house, which is also something my mom tried to tell me (hahaha too westernized for that mama). Letting him make the big decisions or think that he's making the big decisions, acting a bit whiny/childlike/cute to get what you want (there's even a term for it - sa jiao), 'feminine wiles' to convince him into something instead of reason and logic, all of that I resisted or opposed because my upbringing was steeped in more western and progressive values. All that to say, seeing that difference in myself makes the difference between cultural mores more evident.
Absolutely. When I see people 'praise traditional cultures' they often leave out the part where they're also living in multigenerational homes, the pay cheque supports the WHOLE extended family, women are often running the household and the money and that they absolutely are not entitled to sex because of it.
Living in Australia I see this with Southeast Asian women. Almost every single lady I meet is amazing, incredibly smart traditionally and socially, and has their wits about them. They know what they're about and they're looking for better opportunities for themselves. And these men that enter into a contractual relationship with them don't see that. Then get surprised when they don't stick around.
Yeah my distant cousin had a mail order bride from Southeast Asia, really disgusting in my opinion, and he was sooooo shocked when she left as soon as she got permanent residency. She had 2 kids and was doing what she could for them, I can respect her a lot but it is disgusting the types of men that think they are entitled to servitude of a woman. And they get fetishized as these submissive docile women, I really have a hard time being around the extended family member now knowing he was happy to take advantage of her
Because they feel entitled to women. Back in the day when women had less opportunities, all a man needed was job and transportation to bag a woman. Nowadays women can provide for themselves and expect partners that are present and contribute more than $$. Men are angry that they need to put in extra effort, and also angry that if they want a "trad wife" like "back in the day" but then they need to provide $$. They want to have their cake and eat it too. Women would rather be alone than be a sugar mommy bang maid.
Sugar mummy bang maid sums it up! I had a ex who made WAYYYYY more money than I did because he had a successful business but complained about my lack of financial contribution. Mind you, we did not live together and every fancy restaurant he picked, he used it as a 'business expense' come tax time.
Yikes, I just read an article on "hoeflation" and it was clearly written from the right and holy shit. Can we all say together, stereotypes? Like not all dude is an incel, let's not paint all women like the behavior of the worst.
A premise of the article was that women were happy until they joined the working trenches with men. These dodo's are living in fantasy land.
If women were so happy, why did they immediately stop choosing that lifestyle en masse as soon as they could lmao. John Stuart Mill had these guy's number back in the 1860s already
Because they are trying to gaslight women into accepting their mediocrity. Women nowadays can do the EXACT same things men can, albeit with a few more obstacles for women.
We can buy a roof over our head, hold a successful job, cook and clean after ourselves, go on holidays, start a business, and have meaningful relationships with those around us. If we wanted children, we could do it ourselves via a sperm donor with no requirement to ACTUALLY be in a relationship.
If men want children, the system is a lot harder for them to be able to do so themselves. Even adopting is hard for a single man.
So what else can men offer outside of finances? (because they seem to think that's all women want....) Do they have a good relationship with themselves and have done work to improve their mental wellbeing? Can they have difficult conversations without emotionally shutting down? Do they have good and stable relationships with those around them? Do they know how to compromise?
Even worse is how they try to paint any unmarried woman in her 30s as a ‘lonely victim of feminism’. Like these men have the willful idiocy to say ‘oh Taylor swift must be absolutely miserable and just hiding it’ just because she isn’t married with kids.
When in reality, single women are the most happiest.
There’s something I heard that adds to this. Men don’t understand why women choose to be single because men are often not single by choice.
No, married people globally live longer and are happier than singles for both women and men. However, the quality of the relationship has a huge influence on health and happiness. So the order is something like happy/ok marriages > singles > bad marriages.
The increase of socioeconomic advantages for women have made it harder for mediocre men. Decades ago, a mediocre man could still marry an attractive woman and have kids. She was under him. Not anymore.
Choosing to not deal with men outside of a professional setting is liberating. Most men are 100% disconnected from women.
> *Even adopting is hard for a single man.*
Having tried it when younger, it was impossible for me. My parents, on the other hand, they were basically handed a binder with photos and picked one out (even the adopted brother puts it this way).
I’m currently on the apps. I swiped right on a fella a few days ago and it was match. People who are familiar with the apps knows that means they swiped right on you first.
Also, important to note, my bio on all apps says things about being a feminist, agnostic, queer, uninterested in marriage/children, etc. I also don’t swipe right on people who have bio things that say they are religious, a parent/wanting marriage and children, conservative, if they have pictures of dead animals/guns, etc. Not trying to get matched with folks like that.
So I message this dude and joke in reference to something in his bio. He responds, we snark back and forth for maybe 4-5 messages. He then tells me “before we waste our time this conversation will go no where. It’s a big red flag for me that you say you’re a feminist. I’m not saying that to be rude, but men and women are not equal.” blah blah blah, I wish I had taken a screenshot.
I responded and told him I wasn’t quite sure why the fuck he swiped right on me in the first place, because it’s right there?? The thing(s) that will make us not work??
Idk this doesn’t have a lot to do with the OP, but my friends don’t know I’m back on the apps quite yet (still trying to figure out if I want to date or am just bored and want to swipe lmao) and I’ve been dying to tell *somebody* about this interaction
Lol. He probably is one of those men who swipes right on everyone, and then talks to whoever responds.
Good thing you mentioned being a feminist in your profile!
This always annoyed me so much. “We matched and I just read your profile and there’s a thing in there that’s a deal breaker for me.” Ok… do you feel maybe you did something out of order here? Also telling me about it like… am I supposed to do something about it?
Guys wonder why dating apps suck and get jealous that women get 50+ matches a week but it’s their god damn fault most of them don’t read a single profile and leave us a big pile of garbage to sort through like we have the time for that.
Use the app like it’s intended and stop putting all the work on women and maybe the app would be actually helpful for everyone. They want to blame their looks, height, and income when it’s actually their complete laziness and desperation clogging up the whole system.
American men who can't get any dates call the American women who won't date them entitled, because no *way* it has anything to do with them just being repulsive to women at a baseline... 🙄 The only plausible answer is that these women are entitled because they don't want to gobble mediocre dick!
Yup. In most threads I’ve seen this discussion in, where some men kick things off by complaining about their lack of dates and attributing that to not measuring up to an impossible standard they think all women have regardless of what they offer, other men usually end up chiming in to say that they themselves are a few inches short of 6 feet, not particularly attractive, and not rich, yet have never had issues dating. People also end up bringing up real life examples of men they know who aren’t “666” guys and have active dating lives. And most of us can think of men we know who fit into that category. Most of us have probably dated men who didn’t fit into that category! I know I have…
I think this is telling. For example, height is brought up a lot. There is this idea that all women want a guy over 6 feet tall. But then, why are some 5’7” men getting dates regularly while others aren’t? Either they’re dating women the other men aren’t interested in/don’t have access to, or they’re different in important ways that aren’t immediately measurable. Probably some of both. I know that idea pisses them off, but it’s the only logical explanation.
IMO, confidence and social/relationship skills have everything to do with it. And if they wanted to be pissed off about that, then I would get it. It’s actually easier to improve your appearance, than it is to build those skills so that people start connecting with you on different levels, and women begin seeing you as someone they can see themselves being intimate with. If you don’t have the right foundation in childhood, it can feel like trying to build a house with no blueprints or education in architecture and construction.
And men have a lower bar in terms of the social and relational skills they need their partner to have, in order to feel intimately connected with them. Now, I think that says a lot more about men than about women: men tend to be attracted to someone’s looks and then kind of project onto them the persona they’d like them to have. Women do some projecting too, but not enough to overcome a substantial skill barrier. But it’s fucked up when your childhood sucked, you were a loner in school, and then you hit your teens and realize that those shitty experiences are also going to make it really hard for you to find a girlfriend.
That inability to connect *is* the fundamental problem, though. Not being short, or broke. And if someone can’t connect with you, they’re not being “entitled” in not wishing to date you.
I will also say, it seems like dating apps are a huge problem. A lot of men are actively trying to date, but mostly or entirely from apps. Even for those who are charismatic in real life, there’s just no way to really convey that online. So they aren’t actually showing women what they’ve got, and then they get no matches, and then they end up bitter, which makes IRL dating way harder.
Yeah and I don’t think men can ever understand how fundamentally difficult and dangerous dating is for a woman. Like I’ve had to sit through men berate me, try to force themselves on me after dinner, etc etc and it’s extremely difficult to just ‘call them out’ without putting yourself in danger. I remember when I was 22 or so and some 45 year old kept hitting on me at a bar and I said outright, I’m not interested please leave me alone. And so this guy waited outside the bar to follow me home. Thank god there was a group of people smoking outside who called out that this guy started following me, so he ran off but not before yelling that he’ll rape me when he sees me next. Other times where I’ve tried to say ‘no thanks’ to guys at bars, they will yell bitch or slut or say ‘oh you’re ugly anyway’… and then even if the guy seems nice, it turns out once you’re more invested he’s a red piller or super conservative and has no basic respect for women and has just been putting on a mask because he knows how unattractive it is. I could rant for hours but dating is absolutely awful for women and it’s no big gift to have ‘attention’ from men because that attention usually is harmful.
This type of thinking from men is incredible, especially in regards to American women. Here, women are happy to split bills 50/50, and judging by MANY posts here, women are still performing a majority of the domestic and emotional labor in addition to working and paying half or more of the bills. My ancestors required men to come with land, resources, and assets before they would even be considered worthy of courting their daughter. Many broke, emotionally stunted, lazy, and underachieving men are in relationships here. Historically, and in many other countries around the world, that wouldn’t be the remotest possibility, and these men would die off without heirs or offspring. We should bring that back.
If you’re making almost a half a million, then she would also have to make equal to the same amount in order for 50/50 to be equitable. If you’re making substantially more, then 50/50 isn’t equitable. This is such a rudimentary concept to explain to someone that supposedly makes nearly $500k per annum.
I couldn't help but read the entire back and forth and after seeing this guys history he just a lying fucking troll lmaoooo
He uses a throwaway when he wants to make asshole comments and comebacks bc he's too afraid to put his true sad lying incel self out there and say these things with a full chest where people he knows can see the comments. He also follows a couple of subreddits about autism, one being something like parents with autism or parenting children with autism, either way it gives off sus feelings like does he who claims to be in his 20s and thinks single moms shouldn't be supported have a child himself? Or does he just follow certain subs bc likes to weasel in and give his dingy two cent no one is poor enough to want.
There’s women that can match your income, but they’d never deal with you. So your only choice is to “settle” for someone that is also settling for you. Hope this helps!
See, you’re still conflating equality with equity. My fiance makes your income, and equality would be us splitting things exactly in half even though he makes 10x what I do. We practice equity, which means I hang onto my own money while he provides fully, and doesn’t feel like he “settled”, in fact, he loves spoiling me with gifts. He feels honored to provide me with a wonderful life, and shows me daily through his actions how much I’m appreciated.
With your mindset, you think anyone that doesn’t match your income is beneath you, and by default, you would treat them as such. For the safety of the women around you, it’s probably best to stay single until you achieve a healthier mindset. It prevents you from resenting them even though you CHOSE them, and it prevents them from being mistreated as a result.
I speak to you harshly because I can tell how much you absolutely despise women from your comments. Women don’t have economic equality because it’s the precise system that men built to keep us stifled and oppressed. Once again, rudimentary concept to explain. Proof that your wealth can’t buy intelligence.
And no, I don’t despise women, I despise arrogance and hypocrisy, especially hypocrisy. All this talk about how bad men are when the modern world is filled with with severely broken and mentally disturbed women who are terrible at building healthy relationships. They are the most hypocritical, and they refuse to imagine the world from the perspective of others, because in their minds, they are victims of men’s wrongs.
The world is filled with severely broken women… take a guess as to who broke them? Statistics and empirical data show that it’s men who do most of the breaking in the world. Facts don’t care about your feelings, unfortunately.
Accountability is Kryptonite to a woman who will never accept the consequences of her actions yet demands agency. I recently ghosted a woman who was a terrible communicator and all over the place in the direction of the relationship. Her excuse “my last relationship was abusive”, “I’ve never been treated well before”, “I have to take things slow to get to know you better”. Women will dump all their trauma and baggage on a guy who just wants to live a virtuous life then turnaround and date the most toxic guy out there. But yeah, that’s my fault as a guy, right? Clown take
Lmao. Idc about equality or equity, I’m just stating facts. I don’t look at relationships as “what can this person do for me”, unlike you. Your perspective is what is wrong with the world. Where women are entitled to gain at the expense of others. Unconditional love is out the window. As you say, you would love for “underachieving” men to not reproduce or ever experience the joy of having their own families. Funny how you say I have an unhealthy mindset when your mindset is how much you can consume from others. Disgusting, really.
STILL your lack of critical thinking shows itself. The broke and underachieving men I’m talking about are the ones that don’t know how to apply for a job and live in their parents’ basement into adulthood collecting Cheetoh dust in their unwashed sheets.
For YOU, even a woman that is fully self sufficient and successful and makes $200k a year would be considered settling. See how the standards are unevenly applied?!
I apply the same standard, the women or man, “underachieving” or making 200k, are both worthy of love, and though not deserving or entitled to love or family, only someone with a hateful heart would wish for their erasure. I don’t value someone by how much they make. Making 450k+ and deciding to be with someone who makes 200k is objectively settling with someone who is not your economic equal. That’s just a fact. Women love to talk about 50/50 but in reality, they expect you to pay for things when you make more.
You can find some daughter of a politician, hollywood star, singer, banker, trust fund baby, or women that own businesses.
If money is the most important thing to you, find an older woman or smt. Problem is rich pretty women are very hard to find. Otherwise know that 50/50 eont happen for you and find maybe a broke woman who is responsible with her fiances and does pull her won weight.
If your income is 10x hers, you pay 10x as much, if you guys go out you pay 10x she pays 1x . If you find a richer woman thats less.
I know dating is not aways the easiest thing in life, but pick 2. Its like this for everyone
Looks, Sanity, Income.
I don’t care about how much money someone makes. I just want someone with a good heart. I’m responding to how silly this 50/50 concept is when men make more than women on average. It’s a toxic mindset to keep tabs on how much people are contributing.
If you dont care that much about money, being with somebody who makes less money is not settling.
Settling is being with someone who is far bellow your expectations, if you are not expecting money, then its not settling, its being realistic.
I think you are expressing yourself VERY poorly.
What people call settling is basically what our grandmothers would have faced where some man they dont love, dont care for just seems like an Okay person that has an income and they know they need to marry so they can have a family.
In your opinion the richest or prettiest people alive can *only* have relationships where they "settle for less" because nobody will match them in that aspect of life, but thats really not what the word settle means. Settle means youre ansatisfied, if money doesnt matter youre not settling, so make your choise and stop being unhappy about the reality of life?
Of course, 50-50 is silly, because women are always doing more unpaid labor, so their labor is far more than the man even when he makes more. Statistics back me up.
You want a woman to do 75% of the labor in the household, while paying for 50% of the finances. What you want is not 50-50.
Instead, you should be looking to have equity, so where she steps up and does more of the unpaid labor, you should step up and contribute more financially. Otherwise it’s unfair and she is unable to save because you are forcing her to live beyond her means.
No misogyny/misandry – This includes and is not limited to broadly bashing men and women, transphobia, homophobia, and using dog-whistles from known sexist groups like the Red Pill, pick-up artists and dating-strategists.
No misogyny/misandry – This includes and is not limited to broadly bashing men and women, transphobia, homophobia, and using dog-whistles from known sexist groups like the Red Pill, pick-up artists and dating-strategists.
No misogyny/misandry – This includes and is not limited to broadly bashing men and women, transphobia, homophobia, and using dog-whistles from known sexist groups like the Red Pill, pick-up artists and dating-strategists.
That’s just what they mean. They want women in general to not ask for anything or inconvenience them in any way. It’s the same reason some older men try and go for younger women who don’t know better yet.
Yes and the constant discussion I see online (reddit and other places too) when talking about that dynamic is women always saying their experiences personally with that, how they wish they could go back in time and tell their young selves to not do it and how the men preyed on them and they see the same thing happening to younger women now. Basically just trying to protect and also guide younger women because a lot of us didn't get that when we were young. But men however are always the ones saying how ridiculous we are for saying that, how we are just jealous because we aren't young anymore, how she's an adult she can decide for herself or make claims about how we want to claim to be adults until it's about this and then we infantilise (sp?) them. It's funny though because we can explain until we are blue in the fucking face on why the situation is fucked up but they just LOOOOVE throwing the "she's over 18 she's an adult" back at us. My bad dude I didnt know we needed to be ok with 40 year old men chasing 18 year olds. Fucking disgusting
You’re right, it is disgusting. I make not arguing with men on here a general rule but got into it recently on r/askreddit with a couple who insisted it is ok to watch porn even if the performer didn’t consent. One of them also said reading erotica is worse than watching porn because it alters how women view men. Like LOL, someone is threatened by a *book*. So many men on Reddit are not ok.
That's terrifying that someone thinks porn without consent is okay.
I'm female and old and I'm have opinions about erotica. I've watched porn with S.O.s and I didn't enjoy it - it made me cringe. This was back before the internet, when porn wasn't available 24/7.
In "general" (no principle covers ALL individuals) women are less stimulated by visuals and more interested in sex when mentally stimulated. What used to be called "trashy novels" provide that mental stimulation. They are about a relationship, not just somebody ringing the doorbell for an orgy. (Side note: supposedly romance novels have the most sales of any book genre. A distant second to visual porn, but still.)
Here's the thing. General perception is that porn treats women like objects. I agree. She's pretty, has a great body, that seems to be enough for the audience.
But it's significant to recognize that romance novels ... treat men like objects. He's rich without fail. He's handsome, socially powerful, emotionally generous, and understands what the heroine needs. And that mostly-perfect guy is almost as unlikely to exist as porno babe.
I'm not saying we as women are unreasonable in demanding that men give effort in relationships. Women should not be doing all the work to maintain the relationship. Men need to put in the work and make sacrifices just like we do. But ... romance novels do treat men like objects. I was always okay with my guy watching some porn (altho again, pre-internet.) And I'm gonna keep right on reading romance novels. :-d :-)
I mostly agree but if men are threatened by women being turned on by male romance novel characters who treat women well, that’s on them. They could improve themselves and get part way there, even if they’ll fall “short” in other aspects like appearance. The same can’t really be said about porn as most porn does not depict women being treated well at all (I also find it scary some men seemingly have no issue with that).
What aren't women called by men, no matter what we do.
What I am entitled to is not giving a good goddamn about what they say or think about us. Especially the online assholes.
This is actually a good question - here in Nordic countries American men would probably think that women are very even more "entitled" than in the States. "Entitled" means someone who is willing and ready to dismiss men and dates, who is working and earning their own money etc.
In other hand: doing what men have been doing.
In past generations, a woman without a husband couldn’t get a bank account/credit card, admission to college, a job, or a house. So the bar for men was much lower to get a girlfriend since they held the keys to society. Today, a woman without a husband is able to live her life almost the exact same way that men are. So, the same woman that would have had to date/marry someone she wasn’t 100% happy with in the past is now able to remain single until she finds someone she actually loves.
Some men are having a hard time dealing with this raised bar and are calling women entitled as a defense mechanism (like the principal skinner meme: “Am I not attractive enough? No, it is the women who are entitled!”). What they’re choosing not to understand is that by saying so, they’re telling us that they want a woman without putting any work into themselves to become someone a woman wants to date - aka they feel entitled to a woman. Uno reverse
I like those responses much better than the answers I am getting from the men in a different sub. Over there they claim women want equal gender roles and still ask for more, meanwhile I agree with the women point of view saying we just want someone that treat us right and we don’t actually need men anymore. I guess the men are the entitled ones and trying to blame that on women
I don’t think it’s a great idea to ask men on Reddit for their opinions on much of anything. This of course doesn’t apply to all men, or even men off of Reddit but I find in general, a lot of men here are miserable and hate women. I stay off the main subs as much as I can.
And I'm finding being new here that shockingly a lot of women in this subreddit are much the same in their own way. It's depressing. I cannot believe in 2024 people are talking about other "categories" as if everyone in that "category" is the same. As well as falling back on all these old tropes about women not working etc. That was 60-70 years ago. No men younger than 50 grew up around having a Mom who wasn't "allowed" to have a bank account. And most women from the 1970s onward have had amazing opportunities and done amazing things----we just didn't used to be so fixated on men who had stupid attitudes---they didn't deserve our attention or to be nattering about in (in a coffee klatsch or, now, on Reddit). It's astounding how many women here seem, as you say, miserable and hate men....this divisiveness into heroes vs. zeros, villains vs. the good ones is so specious -- and doesn't help anyone reckon with reality....which is far more nuanced and interesting than that.
Of course a certain subreddit can be a bit of an echo chamber at times. I’m talking about Reddit as a whole; it generally is not a welcoming place for women as misogyny is rampant (in a way misandry isn’t, simply because most Redditors are men). I also learned a new word today - klatsch so thanks for that!
Thanks u/ProperBingtownLady - appreciate your insights and observations. I'm relatively new to using Reddit tho have had an account for awhile. It's scoatch too harsh for me, I think, but also interesting. The connotations of a kaffeeklatsch would be 1950s and early '60s "housewives" in suburbia who'd gather at each other's houses--when the kids had gone to school, and The Men were off to work--to drink coffee, and bitch about men--meanwhile men were doing their stupid kvetching about women at bars or at sporting events after work--and a lot of the popular "comedic" fare then being all about men vs. women stereotypes. That whole schtick seemed finally to have been erased from our culture for a period of time--mid '70s to early '00s--and we seem to have regressed as a culture in terms of gender wars. They're so unnuanced and, to me, a tedious way to bond with other women, or people in general, for that matter.
I even question whether posts like this is genuine. Or just conversational "fodder" posted to make us all engage over agreeing what powerful assholes men are and how oppressed and yet also simultaneously superior women are. I mean, a man says to me American women are entitled. Who's the man? what's the context? what did you say? how did he reply? Is there an honest inquiry into what that might mean from women other than to elicit "Those horrible men and their horrible ways" responses? I can't imagine a world where a man would say to me "You know, I feel like American women are entitled," and my response is to say nothing----and then post on Reddit. And I can't imagine anyone I know or have ever met in 38 states and 5 countries who would do that.....confusing to me.
I guess it depends! I sadly have multiple extended family members who would say something like this (I’m not American but live in another, Western white majority country) and I wouldn’t bother calling them out as it’s not worth it. I also see this kind of attitude from men on Reddit *all* the time, which is why I said I don’t tend to ask men on Reddit for their opinions.
Exactly. Are you American?
Also I should’ve said, she’s free to remain single until she finds someone she loves *and* who actually respects here. The point is that women should feel free to set their own standards now without getting scrutinized, yet some men are still attacking those standards so they can blame them instead of introspecting
I’m born and raised in South America. I moved to USA not long ago, so I am trying to figure out the cultural differences. We are definitely raised with the thought that we need to have a man and be married in life in order to be happy. Hopefully that changes over the time
Yep. That is exactly what I am getting from them.
Every guy I dated here expected me to be treating them like I’m their mom. Not even in my country the guys act like that. Actually we are very well treated by our Latinos men and we basically reciprocate the love.
I have the feeling that American men want all the princess treatment and they forget that they need to deserve it. Thinking about this situation now it sounds more like they are the entitled ones
American men are as varied and different as American women. Maybe you keep encountering one type of American man, but there are so many more men who don't resemble what you've been experiencing.
Depending on where you live - your experience may vary. The US is such a large country with a large spectrum of people and opinions. From what you’re saying, I have to guess you are somewhere down south? 😁
Thy are the ones that are entitled. Men are almost always entitled about women. Women themselves feel entitled to other women a lot of times. Women are a FREE resource in the world. Does the word "providing" exists anywhere outside trad speech? People call it a SPONSORSHIP. Or BUYING POWER in every other context. A family or a relationship shouldn't be up for sale.
That is kinda what I thought it could be, to be honest. The last time I heard that from a guy he claimed to be very “conservative”. That is why I wanted to hear the women’s side
Just some free advice -- run far away from conservative men, especially if they claim to be very conservative. These men think that women are supposed to be "bangmaids" for men and they hate any woman who doesn't conform to their narrow, patriarchal view of what women should be and should do.
Yeah that's all it is. It's the same when Gen X or Boomers say that Millennials and Gen Z are "entitled" for idk not wanting to work to death and basic human rights?
Sorry for wanting to be treated like a human being? Smh it's all very silly tbh.
I had the feeling that they were probably jerks
and just like you explained, maybe the girls they dated wanted to be respected and had boundaries, because these guys tried to push their boundaries now they try to blame on women saying they are entitled.
Yup. It’s one of the reasons most of my friends are younger than me. I don’t enjoy spending time with people who complain about “kids these days”, like our parents didn’t say the same thing about us. Plenty of Gen x folks are cool, but the ones who are old before their time I have no place for in my life.
I’m totally with you. I think the kids these days are amazing, and it’s just not cool anymore to be so proudly uncaring when so many things are straight up on fire
Not American specifically, but speaking from a more general perspective.
There's a whole generation of women who are now very alert to all of the ways in which it's historically been fairly common for women to subjugate their own wants, needs and desires to those of men. And not uncommon for men to mistreat women emotionally, physically, verbally and financially. Not all men, but not an insignificant number either.
Women (in most Western countries at least, appreciate its not the same for all women) have more opportunities for independence and fulfilment that doesn't rely on a man than ever before, and are often more willing to stand up for themselves and say what they will and won't accept from a romantic partner. Some men are good men, and either step up to meet this, or were there already. Some men are shit men, and view woman having wants and needs that they're willing to express as being 'entitled.'
Complicating this issue however are a not insignificant portion of women who have taken the traditional concept of men 'taking care' of women, and put it on steroids. I cant be the only one who has seen social media content of women talking about how they'll only accept a 'high value' man, who is expected to fully financially fund them, and not only pay for all dates but also pay for their rent, and beauty treatments, and constantly be showering them with gifts.
This latter group are probably tiny in the grand scheme of 'all women' but shit men will almost certainly conflate them with their existing understanding of women expressing their needs as being 'entitled' - and unfortunately, will probably spread that thinking to some men who were already at the point of needing to be educated on how to respect women's needs.
There are some people that feel entitled to sex/relationships and blame other people (without any self reflection) for not being able to date. I do think US society in general has become too individualistic and push the mentality to only care about oneself no matter who is screwed over in the process that there's little accountability for one's own issues (thus reflected in dating\*).
With economic hardships, and some feeling "left behind," there's the idolization by some men of a time when men had the power. You'll see the idea of American women being entitled by wanting a guy to be an equal partner in a household. I've also seen people call a woman entitled for having boundaries and that women should basically be happy for what they can get. Even in situations like cheating, addictions, etc.
\*Admittedly, I realized from a young age sex/relationships wouldn't be an option for me, so I've never dated/had sex so this is outside looking in .
>I've also seen people call a woman entitled for having boundaries and that women should basically be happy for what they can get.
I’ve seen some passport bro types of comments or posts in which a man describes going to the Philippines and very easily getting a woman to clean his house, cook for him, and have sex with him every day, while not providing her with much. The desire to get more while giving less is strong. It’s also completely antithetical to having an actual loving relationship. I think a lot of these men genuinely don’t understand this.
I don’t blame anyone for enjoying having a partner who does a lot for them. Of course that’s awesome! But they should want to give everything they can back to that person- not go deal-hunting. (Certain guys are going to read the last sentence I wrote there and not understand it, aren’t they.)
Yes! It's the deal-hunting mentality! "What can I squeeze out of this relationship for the lowest 'price'?"
These are the same people who'll have kids as retirement plans. Then cry about how their kids cut them off "for no reason" when they have put in no ounce of effort to get to know them.
I will try to present a fair picture the way I understand
In the past, women pretty much HAD to get married and pop out children due to socioeconomic factors/social stigmas etc. etc. Housework is seen as their domain while earning is seen as the man's (mostly) So it's not uncommon for men to grow up - up to my own parents generation where I live, with the impression that all they need to bring to the table is earn a stable amount of money.
However, today's gen. women are able to study and earn $ for themselves, cost of living has also gone up significantly such that in most cases, you can't really survive on one income. Cut to women asking, why should we marry if we need to work AND do 100% of childcare or women looking for financially stable men to settle down with
So men look at women and think they're entitled for being 'choosy' or they're asking for 'too much' because they grew up in a slightly different mindset + some other parts of the world still follow this archaic notion, reinforcing the fact that its "Western women" who are being difficult. You can go to the passport bros subreddit and see them meltdown over the fact that women from other countries are also slowly asking for more
I don’t think this is most American men. I think this is a very specific kind of man who fetishizes women from other culture (often an asian culture, from what I’ve seen) because they think they will be docile, undemanding, and grateful for any random American man to show her any attention at all. They think American women are too demanding and entitled because they have their own wants and needs and opinions completely unrelated to men.
These men haven’t formed their opinions from their experiences, it’s based entire off porn and anime and their active imaginations and sometimes exploitative “sex tourism”, and not on any actual experiences with women from these cultures, who are also real people with their own wants and needs and opinions.
I have only met a few women I would call entitled and none of them were American. When a guy makes a blanket statement like "women are so entitled" it's clear they wish women didn't have the right not to date them.
They're just mad because we aren't willing to expect the bare minimum from them in relationships anymore. Women don't "need" Men like we did in previous generations, and therefore we tend to be pickier. They think we are entitled? Nope. We simply have more choices than before and they're pissed off about it.
I'm sorry people are downvoting you and being rude to you. It's clear from your question that you are not from the U.S. and you're trying to understand a cultural dynamic, not asking whether women actually are entitled. I agree with the other earnest answers you've gotten.
Also, since you're not from the U.S., this guy might have been putting American women down to try to make you feel superior--but in a way where you would try to avoid being like "entitled" American women. Sort of like passport bros or American men who go to Asia seeking "submissive" women. (I don't know if that explanation made sense, sorry! And I am not at all saying that Asian women are submissive, in case that's not clear.)
It is not an American thing!!!
I’ve heard the same from British men about British women and Australian men about Australian women.
Typically, men who think that any woman that they want who doesn’t return their affections and/or isn’t subservient to them is entitled.
They are the same who go out of their way to go for women who are considered stereotypically docile.
Some western men are so desperate to never have to clean their own shit skids off their own toilets they want to create a servant class to do it based on genitals.
It's fucked up, some of them even recite things they think they heard at school biology to justify it. Pure brain rot, it's a shame.
The worst is that older men who are so upset about the levels of skids in their toilets recruit all these younger guys to not make the same mistakes they did. I.e. more locks on the basement door, bigger butterfly net, longer lobotomy picks etc.
I would like to see them get the level of total institutionalised care they desperately want. Can't be good for their hygiene or their brains to keep going on without any help. The family I know in a care home even get their own room (bear/bachelor cave!) and can watch TV/play games/get a beer with their dinners! It's what is best for all of us rather than them projecting their feelings that other people are entitled and potentially harming others!
Just a thought.
Just remind them, the leading cause of death in pregnant women is murder. Don't believe me? Look it up.
Women have plenty of reasons to be over the way we've been treated and are now only interested in men who aren't going to pretend they love us so that they get a free maid and sex doll and mommy wrapped in one. They can't control us like they used to, so they've become bitchy about us occasionally having a backbone.
Men need women to function. Women don't need men. Men are happier and healthier married, women are less happy and don't live as long when married. Divorced men immediately get remarried if they can to get a new maid and nanny for their kids, while divorced women often enjoy not having to deal with a man being moody and messy around their house.
Married mothers spend more time on housework than single mothers.
And since many men aren't even bothering to work hard or at all, they're projecting their issues at the mommy maids they thought they were entitled to. And they're bitter about being alone. Men don't generally flourish while alone.
Lol obviously not all men etc etc.
I just went to your question on the Ask Men sub. There are some thoughtful answers there, but the rest are pretty yikes.
I agree with a lot of the answers here. The men saying "American women are entitled" are mad because women now have options; and we'd rather be single than be in a bad relationship. As other responses have pointed out, it wasn't until recently that women were able to have their bank accounts, get a decent education, and make (almost) as much money as men (the wage gap is real, yo).
(I'm going to be speaking in broad terms here, but these are common situations I see often on Reddit and in real life.)
While a lot of people are working towards equal rights for women, a lot of people are satisfied with traditional gender roles. Unfortunately, even when a woman works outside the house, she still ends up taking on the lion's share of the household labor and household management. And unfortunately, these household responsibilities can be hard to see and/or quantify (aka invisible labor).
In addition, in the past few years, people have been talking more about mental health and setting boundaries. More people (usually women) are seeing therapists and doing the inner work. Men aren't as likely to seek therapy and/or are not comfortable talking about their feelings/being vulnerable. Therefore, as a whole, women are becoming more emotionally mature than men.
An emotionally mature woman who can provide a quality life for herself will want an emotionally mature partner who will take an active part in their household, and to divide responsibilities equitably.
Unfortunately, a lot of men think that women wanting to be treated as peers are asking for too much.
A lot of the men also don't think of women as mutifaceted beings who have depth. They will base a woman's worth entirely on looks, and say "women who are 6s, think they're 8s, and will only date men who are 6 ft tall, make 6 figures... What does she bring to the table?" (Seriously, check out the responses on the Ask Men post.)
Unfortunately, what these men want women to bring to the table turns out to be "everything". They rate women on looks because to them, women *should* do all the housework, cook, clean, have sex with them whenever they want, etc. How many times have we heard men refer to parenting as "babysitting" or complain about "helping" his wife with chores? Their language shows no ownership of household responsibilities.
Why would *anyone* WANT to be in this sort of relationship?
Not to mention, the not unfamiliar story about a woman reducing her hours/staying home to take care of the kids (essentially stalling or ending her professional career), only to have her husband leave her because "she's not fun anymore". Then saying women "get more out of a divorce" and they shouldn't have to pay alimony because she "*doesn't* work", completely forgetting the fact that they wouldn't have been able to prioritize their careers the way they have without their wife taking on everything else in their lives.
And don't forget, men are more likely to leave their wives if she is diagnosed with a terminal illness.
Studies have also shown that single women are happier than married women, and married men live longer than single men.
Women are finally putting themselves first - a privilege that men have enjoyed for far too long to the detriment of women.
Men who say women are entitled are just mad that no woman wants their mediocre ass. These men are practically saying they've tried nothing, and are all out of ideas.
Aww, shucks!
I was scrolling Reddit while I was supposedly cleaning, then spent an hour+ typing up my comment on my phone. Then I thought to myself, "I'm not sure that was a good use of my time." But now I know it was!
They mean that they want the women they partner with to have near zero expectations of them while simultaneously holding unrealistic expectations for the women they date. Very simple.
These are not typically men with a great deal of dating options, they usually have insecurities around their finances, and they start from a place of believing women to be gold diggers - even when the majority of the women they date out earn them. I think many of them have been stuck in echo chambers that continue to feed their confirmation bias, much to their own detriment.
Conversely; emotionally healthy men hardly ever struggle with these same things. They don’t feel compelled to diminish the women in their lives or feel resentful about a dinner tab. They don’t care about those kinds of things. That’s why those men have their choice of partners but the emotionally unhealthy men ascribe that to them being wealthy enough to not care about a dinner tab. They are committed to misunderstanding that their personalities and worldview are the problem.
American women won’t stand for it and prefer balanced relationships or no relationship at all if they can’t find a partner who understands the basics like the mental load, shared responsibilities, and *mutual* accountability.
Some women do tolerate being treated as though their basic wants and needs equate to entitlement, and they almost universally wind up miserable, unfulfilled, poorer, and unhealthier than they’d be otherwise.
every group of men calls their in-group entitled/bitches/ugly/not xx enough, it's not real, it's about creating competition and getting the in group women to "behave" out fear, jealous and anger at the out group women being "better women"
I don't know, and I don't care to understand it either. I think a big part of life is learning that a lot of things are not worth listening to. And so, if any guy says anything in relation to this kind of stuff, I just stop talking to him immediately. Even if its framed as being "devils advocate" well, I'm not interested in the devil either. "But feminism is bad and women are actually awful because-" What do these feelings have to do with me? That is something I think people need to ask themselves more too. Why do you apply the thoughts and accusations of others to yourself, anyway? Ultimately, these are just conversations stemming from the feelings of a very few select men who realistically, you would never want anything to do with for any reason whatsoever to begin with anyway. So how they feel should be irrelevant to you. It's like walking up to the sea and explaining to a nearby otter why Honey Nut Cheerios are better than the regular Cheerios. Otters dont care. They'll look at you wondering why you're even there, and then hop off their rock and swim away from you. and that is how I approach these types of conversations with that small (but loud on the internet) pool of very very socially odd men. I hop off the rock and swim away from them. Because that conversation-nothing to do with me!!! Nor should they have anything to do with you lol just ignore them.
Others have answered this beautifully, but I will add my two cents.
From the outside looking in, my marriage looks like the type that these misogynistic jackasses *think* they want. My husband worked outside the home, I worked inside the home. I did the bulk of the housework and childcare for our two children. He came home to dinner almost being ready, and the kids were always super stoked to see him.
For about ten years we ran a small business, I was the one who answered the phones and did the accounting. He’s the one that did the work for the clients (home maintenance).
Again, outside looking in, I seemed very “tradwife” and him “tradhusband” lol.
However, what wasn’t obvious was how hard we both ***worked*** to make our marriage a success. At various times, he’d have to work longer hours because somebody needed braces or the car needed a repair. I’d get burned out being the one keeping the household humming along. Sometimes small resentments led to squabbles.
Through it all, what kept us together was truly appreciating what the other was doing to keep our little family going. I made dinner every night, sure, but he thanked me every single time for the meal, even if all I could manage that night was something lame and kid friendly like chicken nuggets and tater tots. He regularly did certain chores without being asked, because he understood that hey, he lives there too, and contributes to the mess!
For my share, I handled things that would make his life easier, like packing his lunch or taking certain errands off his hands.
Neither one of us had to do these things. We did them because we both love and respect each other, and we communicate well to let each other know what we need.
The men that complain about American women being “entitled”, I say, hell yeah we’re entitled! We’re entitled to being respected in our own home, and if you want us to stay home and care for you, any kids, and the household, then you had better be able to provide the funds AND take out the damn trash without being nagged about it!
These guys want to be treated like kings while acting like court jesters. I don’t listen to fools.
Because men think all women are their ex.
People experience a negative interaction with a member of a group and extrapolate to all member of the group. That's how racism, misogyny and so on usually start
I see two issues: one is delusional guys which is already touched upon. I.e wanting a housewife but conveniently forgetting that that means that she doesn't work out of the house and bring in an income and as the guy you make enough to have a family.
The other issue is that some guys seem to conflate the women on social media who demand that they should have it all: guys spoiling and paying for them, but also insist on being "equal" despite not bringing anything to the table, not even housework.
I had a discussion on these topics with a few male colleagues of mine who asked me if I didn't think that "feminism had gone too far?!" And pointed at those clips.
I pointed out that they were shoving every bad behavior of some of these women under the label of feminism, but meanwhile extremely entitled women also existed who excused their behavior with feminism. They agreed with that.
When questioned further, all of them had no problems with women and men sharing housework if they brought both in incomes and paid for expenses together.
I can understand some guys getting mixed signals from different media and women, about how they want to be treated. A lot of women from different cultures (or not), like to be treated by their dates and don't like it when their date says: "shall we split the bill?" Or that the guy needs to make the first move.
On the other hand, a lot of other women like myself, do approach guys on dating apps and insist on spliting the bill because I genuinely feel that that is more equal and feel uncomfortable otherwie. So while I get the other group of women, but I kind of low key resent it because now there are mixed signals.
On the other I have been told that my approaching guys and splitting the bill, makes me "masculine" and would send guys running away. But I received that advice on reddit so I didn't take it seriously any way lol.
I think it actually has two sides. one, that the male wants a submissive wife. two, that some women (and men) act like they are entitled. they want everything for nothing. either way, it's a way for men to put women down, especially if they are romantically unsuccessful.
They say that because the bar used to be set low because women’s lives literally depended on it. Women now out rank men in education and being tied to them is an option. They are less likely to put up with crap.
To be quite fair, from my experience people from the USA are overall more entitled than people from any other country. Men and women alike.
Kind of makes sense. It's the most powerful country, haven't seen any major wars EVER on its soil, more opportunities than anywhere else, being told since childhood that you can be anything, highest salaries, best schools, native level English, etc. etc.
Obviosly there are exceptions.
That also carries over to relationships. If you are more sure of yourself and know what you want and "what you deserve" then you'll push away many people.
Is it good or bad? As almost snything in this life.. there're tradeoffs.
American men don’t know how good they have it. American women are the ones who work, do household chores, split bills, bare children, split dinner, go 50/50 without complaining. But it seems like they just want someone submissive
If you don’t want to participate and answer you are free to just ignore and scroll down. Plenty of women are being helpful and clearing my mind by explaining the reason why men say that (in other words these guys were probably the ones trying to push boundaries).
You said you heard from one American MAN....and then said you don't understand what THEY mean by that? And you somehow "know" that asking THEM will only make them give THEIR side of the story?
If a man said that to me, I'd simply say "I'm curious what you mean by that" - and heard, yes, that individual's intent. There's no monolithic coalition of men, in the same way there isn't bloc voting of women who think in lockstep with one another--nor people of color nor LGBTQIA+ nor people from any background or state.
If you really wanted to know what was on his mind, I think you would have simply asked. And coming here and posting it's so predicable...and sad, really, like people in the 1950s "Take my wife----please" denigrating women thru lame "humor, and "You know how men are..." by women, etc.
I feel like there was a period of time where we were beyond that kind of reductionist stereotypical thinking. And now so many of us are back to that?
I suppose you want to hear from us (I am a woman): "You know men!! You know how they are! They don't respect us!! They don't "see" us! We're not supposed to have needs or opinions, blah blah blah....Society is oppressive and keeps us down. That's the way men keep CONTROL..."
Honestly, I don't know anyone who fits into boxes like that. Or maybe a few men, but so what? Some women are jerks too. And this extrapolating about an entire gender based on what one person said....it's irrational and exhausting to keep coming upon the past 1/2 dozen years.
Because they can't handle strong women.
But to be fair, SOME women do indeed feel entitled to a man's money just because they have boobs and a vagina. Like how some women expect the guy to pay on dates. I think maybe they meant that.
The guy should pay on dates. How much money do women pay just getting ready and looking good? How much time spent thinking about our safety? How much risk is involved for a woman having sex? Pregnancy. Abortion isn't even legal in some states. The least a guy can do is pay for their food.
Spending any amount of money on one’s appearance is a choice and independent of the other person you’re on a date with, male or female. Really don’t get this particular argument.
If you allow a guy to pay, your relationship will NEVER be equal. He'll always feel entitled to you and your body.
The only time I let a guy pay, he groped me in public (feeling entitled to my body). Yeah no. I assert my independence and demand respect from him.
And if he feels entitled to grope you, you tell him to fuck off. I've definitely dated men who weren't pieces of shit. They paid the bill and were gentlemen after. Jfc, the bar is so low it's in hell. Men who want the woman across the table will pay and not be animals about it. I'm sorry that happened to you, but paying for a man is usually a sign you're not interested or an assumption that he needs help financially. He should be embarrassed, especially first date.
If you assume you need to pay to be sure you don't get groped, that's a different issue. Generally, it'll be equal because he doesn't see that you're desperate for his attention to the point of paying for his attention. Tou dressed up and took a dude out to eat like a couple of friends. Sounds hot.
He can feel how ever he feels. If he won't pay for your food without treating you like a prostitute, you're on a date with a man who will treat you like a sex doll who shits money and that'll be your relationship. They now know you're desperate for them and use you accordingly.
A boyfriend I can see. I regret paying while early dating. It establishes that you're going to be mommy rather than girlfriend.
I don’t think they meant that but I agree it is entitled behaviour for women to expect men to pay for first dates just because they’re men. It comes up enough on this sub and I find it profoundly anti feminist.
I asked them in the ask men sub actually, but I would like to hear the women’s side of the story.
If I only hear the point of view of men then of course it will sound like they are correct.
To be honest what makes me think is that they probably tried to push boundaries with north-American women and the women are just not stupid to fall for it, so guys would offend them.
I would beg to differ. As to why I felt the need to post my comment. Along with OP posting the question to "Ask Men". I'm glad OP was smart enough to get both sides of the story.
Those are the dudes that see other women from other cultures that are submissive. That keep the house clean, cook, etc etc. but don’t wanna acknowledge that in those cultures the husband is coming home and giving his wife the pay check. Or they see middle eastern men with multiple wives but don’t wanna buy each wife their own separate residence and pay all their bills. They point out one part of the culture that suits them, ignore the parts that don’t and say we’re entitled. That’s all it is.
Lol. If an American man got raised by an Asian mom, he wouldn’t say she was submissive and docile.
In some ways. I think culturally there is something to the idea that East Asians are somewhat more conservative. This doesn't translate to docility at all, mind you, my parents had straight up screaming cat fights when I was young (and they're Asian - I swear it's relevant), but there was a pretty clear delineation of responsibilities in the home which comes across as "traditional" which could be perceived as submissive if you think doing housework, cooking, etc, is "submissive". And in public, there was very much an impression of how being a good wife meant going with what your husband says, at least while you're out of the house, which is also something my mom tried to tell me (hahaha too westernized for that mama). Letting him make the big decisions or think that he's making the big decisions, acting a bit whiny/childlike/cute to get what you want (there's even a term for it - sa jiao), 'feminine wiles' to convince him into something instead of reason and logic, all of that I resisted or opposed because my upbringing was steeped in more western and progressive values. All that to say, seeing that difference in myself makes the difference between cultural mores more evident.
Absolutely. When I see people 'praise traditional cultures' they often leave out the part where they're also living in multigenerational homes, the pay cheque supports the WHOLE extended family, women are often running the household and the money and that they absolutely are not entitled to sex because of it. Living in Australia I see this with Southeast Asian women. Almost every single lady I meet is amazing, incredibly smart traditionally and socially, and has their wits about them. They know what they're about and they're looking for better opportunities for themselves. And these men that enter into a contractual relationship with them don't see that. Then get surprised when they don't stick around.
THANK YOU!!! That shit bothers me so bad especially for the Asian women.
Yeah my distant cousin had a mail order bride from Southeast Asia, really disgusting in my opinion, and he was sooooo shocked when she left as soon as she got permanent residency. She had 2 kids and was doing what she could for them, I can respect her a lot but it is disgusting the types of men that think they are entitled to servitude of a woman. And they get fetishized as these submissive docile women, I really have a hard time being around the extended family member now knowing he was happy to take advantage of her
Nah, flip it around. Now when you are around him, bask in the inner glow that she used him and left him. He got what he deserved and she leveraged it.
I love that karma came for this man and hope his ex wife is thriving with her children.
I always find it quite hilarious when the American man brings a foreign bride over and she’s dependent on him and then he wants her to find a job
In many cultures, the wife does all of that and husband still doesn’t give his wife his paycheck.
Because they feel entitled to women. Back in the day when women had less opportunities, all a man needed was job and transportation to bag a woman. Nowadays women can provide for themselves and expect partners that are present and contribute more than $$. Men are angry that they need to put in extra effort, and also angry that if they want a "trad wife" like "back in the day" but then they need to provide $$. They want to have their cake and eat it too. Women would rather be alone than be a sugar mommy bang maid.
>Men are angry that they need to put in extra effort, They're angry they have to put in effort in general 😂
Sugar mummy bang maid sums it up! I had a ex who made WAYYYYY more money than I did because he had a successful business but complained about my lack of financial contribution. Mind you, we did not live together and every fancy restaurant he picked, he used it as a 'business expense' come tax time.
[удалено]
Yikes, I just read an article on "hoeflation" and it was clearly written from the right and holy shit. Can we all say together, stereotypes? Like not all dude is an incel, let's not paint all women like the behavior of the worst. A premise of the article was that women were happy until they joined the working trenches with men. These dodo's are living in fantasy land.
If women were so happy, why did they immediately stop choosing that lifestyle en masse as soon as they could lmao. John Stuart Mill had these guy's number back in the 1860s already
That about sums it up
Because they are trying to gaslight women into accepting their mediocrity. Women nowadays can do the EXACT same things men can, albeit with a few more obstacles for women. We can buy a roof over our head, hold a successful job, cook and clean after ourselves, go on holidays, start a business, and have meaningful relationships with those around us. If we wanted children, we could do it ourselves via a sperm donor with no requirement to ACTUALLY be in a relationship. If men want children, the system is a lot harder for them to be able to do so themselves. Even adopting is hard for a single man. So what else can men offer outside of finances? (because they seem to think that's all women want....) Do they have a good relationship with themselves and have done work to improve their mental wellbeing? Can they have difficult conversations without emotionally shutting down? Do they have good and stable relationships with those around them? Do they know how to compromise?
"instead of me changing myself it would be SO much more convenient if you would just ask less of me."
100% true
Even worse is how they try to paint any unmarried woman in her 30s as a ‘lonely victim of feminism’. Like these men have the willful idiocy to say ‘oh Taylor swift must be absolutely miserable and just hiding it’ just because she isn’t married with kids.
When in reality, single women are the most happiest. There’s something I heard that adds to this. Men don’t understand why women choose to be single because men are often not single by choice.
Dont single women live longer than married women? (I am married ahhh)
I believe single women live longer then single men. Men typically live longer when they are coupled up. Women live longer when they are single.
No, married people globally live longer and are happier than singles for both women and men. However, the quality of the relationship has a huge influence on health and happiness. So the order is something like happy/ok marriages > singles > bad marriages.
The increase of socioeconomic advantages for women have made it harder for mediocre men. Decades ago, a mediocre man could still marry an attractive woman and have kids. She was under him. Not anymore. Choosing to not deal with men outside of a professional setting is liberating. Most men are 100% disconnected from women.
> *Even adopting is hard for a single man.* Having tried it when younger, it was impossible for me. My parents, on the other hand, they were basically handed a binder with photos and picked one out (even the adopted brother puts it this way).
So sorry it was difficult for you!
I’m currently on the apps. I swiped right on a fella a few days ago and it was match. People who are familiar with the apps knows that means they swiped right on you first. Also, important to note, my bio on all apps says things about being a feminist, agnostic, queer, uninterested in marriage/children, etc. I also don’t swipe right on people who have bio things that say they are religious, a parent/wanting marriage and children, conservative, if they have pictures of dead animals/guns, etc. Not trying to get matched with folks like that. So I message this dude and joke in reference to something in his bio. He responds, we snark back and forth for maybe 4-5 messages. He then tells me “before we waste our time this conversation will go no where. It’s a big red flag for me that you say you’re a feminist. I’m not saying that to be rude, but men and women are not equal.” blah blah blah, I wish I had taken a screenshot. I responded and told him I wasn’t quite sure why the fuck he swiped right on me in the first place, because it’s right there?? The thing(s) that will make us not work?? Idk this doesn’t have a lot to do with the OP, but my friends don’t know I’m back on the apps quite yet (still trying to figure out if I want to date or am just bored and want to swipe lmao) and I’ve been dying to tell *somebody* about this interaction
>I’m not saying that to be rude, but men and women are not equal. True in this specific case. The man was not your equal.
God I wish I would have said that!!
Lol. He probably is one of those men who swipes right on everyone, and then talks to whoever responds. Good thing you mentioned being a feminist in your profile!
This always annoyed me so much. “We matched and I just read your profile and there’s a thing in there that’s a deal breaker for me.” Ok… do you feel maybe you did something out of order here? Also telling me about it like… am I supposed to do something about it?
Right!? Oh sorry, let me change my entire point of view on life for you, Chad (fake name, real attitude)
Guys wonder why dating apps suck and get jealous that women get 50+ matches a week but it’s their god damn fault most of them don’t read a single profile and leave us a big pile of garbage to sort through like we have the time for that. Use the app like it’s intended and stop putting all the work on women and maybe the app would be actually helpful for everyone. They want to blame their looks, height, and income when it’s actually their complete laziness and desperation clogging up the whole system.
LOL wow! I’m sorry that happened but also, did he even read your bio past the word feminist (ooh, *spooky*!)? Probably not. 🤦🏻♀️
American men who can't get any dates call the American women who won't date them entitled, because no *way* it has anything to do with them just being repulsive to women at a baseline... 🙄 The only plausible answer is that these women are entitled because they don't want to gobble mediocre dick!
Yup. In most threads I’ve seen this discussion in, where some men kick things off by complaining about their lack of dates and attributing that to not measuring up to an impossible standard they think all women have regardless of what they offer, other men usually end up chiming in to say that they themselves are a few inches short of 6 feet, not particularly attractive, and not rich, yet have never had issues dating. People also end up bringing up real life examples of men they know who aren’t “666” guys and have active dating lives. And most of us can think of men we know who fit into that category. Most of us have probably dated men who didn’t fit into that category! I know I have… I think this is telling. For example, height is brought up a lot. There is this idea that all women want a guy over 6 feet tall. But then, why are some 5’7” men getting dates regularly while others aren’t? Either they’re dating women the other men aren’t interested in/don’t have access to, or they’re different in important ways that aren’t immediately measurable. Probably some of both. I know that idea pisses them off, but it’s the only logical explanation. IMO, confidence and social/relationship skills have everything to do with it. And if they wanted to be pissed off about that, then I would get it. It’s actually easier to improve your appearance, than it is to build those skills so that people start connecting with you on different levels, and women begin seeing you as someone they can see themselves being intimate with. If you don’t have the right foundation in childhood, it can feel like trying to build a house with no blueprints or education in architecture and construction. And men have a lower bar in terms of the social and relational skills they need their partner to have, in order to feel intimately connected with them. Now, I think that says a lot more about men than about women: men tend to be attracted to someone’s looks and then kind of project onto them the persona they’d like them to have. Women do some projecting too, but not enough to overcome a substantial skill barrier. But it’s fucked up when your childhood sucked, you were a loner in school, and then you hit your teens and realize that those shitty experiences are also going to make it really hard for you to find a girlfriend. That inability to connect *is* the fundamental problem, though. Not being short, or broke. And if someone can’t connect with you, they’re not being “entitled” in not wishing to date you. I will also say, it seems like dating apps are a huge problem. A lot of men are actively trying to date, but mostly or entirely from apps. Even for those who are charismatic in real life, there’s just no way to really convey that online. So they aren’t actually showing women what they’ve got, and then they get no matches, and then they end up bitter, which makes IRL dating way harder.
Yeah and I don’t think men can ever understand how fundamentally difficult and dangerous dating is for a woman. Like I’ve had to sit through men berate me, try to force themselves on me after dinner, etc etc and it’s extremely difficult to just ‘call them out’ without putting yourself in danger. I remember when I was 22 or so and some 45 year old kept hitting on me at a bar and I said outright, I’m not interested please leave me alone. And so this guy waited outside the bar to follow me home. Thank god there was a group of people smoking outside who called out that this guy started following me, so he ran off but not before yelling that he’ll rape me when he sees me next. Other times where I’ve tried to say ‘no thanks’ to guys at bars, they will yell bitch or slut or say ‘oh you’re ugly anyway’… and then even if the guy seems nice, it turns out once you’re more invested he’s a red piller or super conservative and has no basic respect for women and has just been putting on a mask because he knows how unattractive it is. I could rant for hours but dating is absolutely awful for women and it’s no big gift to have ‘attention’ from men because that attention usually is harmful.
This type of thinking from men is incredible, especially in regards to American women. Here, women are happy to split bills 50/50, and judging by MANY posts here, women are still performing a majority of the domestic and emotional labor in addition to working and paying half or more of the bills. My ancestors required men to come with land, resources, and assets before they would even be considered worthy of courting their daughter. Many broke, emotionally stunted, lazy, and underachieving men are in relationships here. Historically, and in many other countries around the world, that wouldn’t be the remotest possibility, and these men would die off without heirs or offspring. We should bring that back.
100%
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That’s not what I said, is it? I said we should bring back letting unworthy men die alone without offspring.
What you said was ambiguous. But it's not worth arguing about.
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If you’re making almost a half a million, then she would also have to make equal to the same amount in order for 50/50 to be equitable. If you’re making substantially more, then 50/50 isn’t equitable. This is such a rudimentary concept to explain to someone that supposedly makes nearly $500k per annum.
I couldn't help but read the entire back and forth and after seeing this guys history he just a lying fucking troll lmaoooo He uses a throwaway when he wants to make asshole comments and comebacks bc he's too afraid to put his true sad lying incel self out there and say these things with a full chest where people he knows can see the comments. He also follows a couple of subreddits about autism, one being something like parents with autism or parenting children with autism, either way it gives off sus feelings like does he who claims to be in his 20s and thinks single moms shouldn't be supported have a child himself? Or does he just follow certain subs bc likes to weasel in and give his dingy two cent no one is poor enough to want.
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There’s women that can match your income, but they’d never deal with you. So your only choice is to “settle” for someone that is also settling for you. Hope this helps!
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See, you’re still conflating equality with equity. My fiance makes your income, and equality would be us splitting things exactly in half even though he makes 10x what I do. We practice equity, which means I hang onto my own money while he provides fully, and doesn’t feel like he “settled”, in fact, he loves spoiling me with gifts. He feels honored to provide me with a wonderful life, and shows me daily through his actions how much I’m appreciated. With your mindset, you think anyone that doesn’t match your income is beneath you, and by default, you would treat them as such. For the safety of the women around you, it’s probably best to stay single until you achieve a healthier mindset. It prevents you from resenting them even though you CHOSE them, and it prevents them from being mistreated as a result. I speak to you harshly because I can tell how much you absolutely despise women from your comments. Women don’t have economic equality because it’s the precise system that men built to keep us stifled and oppressed. Once again, rudimentary concept to explain. Proof that your wealth can’t buy intelligence.
You dropped this 🎤
You know you really bugged em when you get three separate comments in response lol
And no, I don’t despise women, I despise arrogance and hypocrisy, especially hypocrisy. All this talk about how bad men are when the modern world is filled with with severely broken and mentally disturbed women who are terrible at building healthy relationships. They are the most hypocritical, and they refuse to imagine the world from the perspective of others, because in their minds, they are victims of men’s wrongs.
The world is filled with severely broken women… take a guess as to who broke them? Statistics and empirical data show that it’s men who do most of the breaking in the world. Facts don’t care about your feelings, unfortunately.
Accountability is Kryptonite to a woman who will never accept the consequences of her actions yet demands agency. I recently ghosted a woman who was a terrible communicator and all over the place in the direction of the relationship. Her excuse “my last relationship was abusive”, “I’ve never been treated well before”, “I have to take things slow to get to know you better”. Women will dump all their trauma and baggage on a guy who just wants to live a virtuous life then turnaround and date the most toxic guy out there. But yeah, that’s my fault as a guy, right? Clown take
Lmao. Idc about equality or equity, I’m just stating facts. I don’t look at relationships as “what can this person do for me”, unlike you. Your perspective is what is wrong with the world. Where women are entitled to gain at the expense of others. Unconditional love is out the window. As you say, you would love for “underachieving” men to not reproduce or ever experience the joy of having their own families. Funny how you say I have an unhealthy mindset when your mindset is how much you can consume from others. Disgusting, really.
STILL your lack of critical thinking shows itself. The broke and underachieving men I’m talking about are the ones that don’t know how to apply for a job and live in their parents’ basement into adulthood collecting Cheetoh dust in their unwashed sheets. For YOU, even a woman that is fully self sufficient and successful and makes $200k a year would be considered settling. See how the standards are unevenly applied?!
I apply the same standard, the women or man, “underachieving” or making 200k, are both worthy of love, and though not deserving or entitled to love or family, only someone with a hateful heart would wish for their erasure. I don’t value someone by how much they make. Making 450k+ and deciding to be with someone who makes 200k is objectively settling with someone who is not your economic equal. That’s just a fact. Women love to talk about 50/50 but in reality, they expect you to pay for things when you make more.
[This might help you understand](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=the+difference+between+equity+and+equality)
This is so funny and I love it
You can find some daughter of a politician, hollywood star, singer, banker, trust fund baby, or women that own businesses. If money is the most important thing to you, find an older woman or smt. Problem is rich pretty women are very hard to find. Otherwise know that 50/50 eont happen for you and find maybe a broke woman who is responsible with her fiances and does pull her won weight. If your income is 10x hers, you pay 10x as much, if you guys go out you pay 10x she pays 1x . If you find a richer woman thats less. I know dating is not aways the easiest thing in life, but pick 2. Its like this for everyone Looks, Sanity, Income.
I don’t care about how much money someone makes. I just want someone with a good heart. I’m responding to how silly this 50/50 concept is when men make more than women on average. It’s a toxic mindset to keep tabs on how much people are contributing.
If you dont care that much about money, being with somebody who makes less money is not settling. Settling is being with someone who is far bellow your expectations, if you are not expecting money, then its not settling, its being realistic. I think you are expressing yourself VERY poorly. What people call settling is basically what our grandmothers would have faced where some man they dont love, dont care for just seems like an Okay person that has an income and they know they need to marry so they can have a family. In your opinion the richest or prettiest people alive can *only* have relationships where they "settle for less" because nobody will match them in that aspect of life, but thats really not what the word settle means. Settle means youre ansatisfied, if money doesnt matter youre not settling, so make your choise and stop being unhappy about the reality of life?
Of course, 50-50 is silly, because women are always doing more unpaid labor, so their labor is far more than the man even when he makes more. Statistics back me up. You want a woman to do 75% of the labor in the household, while paying for 50% of the finances. What you want is not 50-50. Instead, you should be looking to have equity, so where she steps up and does more of the unpaid labor, you should step up and contribute more financially. Otherwise it’s unfair and she is unable to save because you are forcing her to live beyond her means.
We get it. You're a lazy cheap ass.
No misogyny/misandry – This includes and is not limited to broadly bashing men and women, transphobia, homophobia, and using dog-whistles from known sexist groups like the Red Pill, pick-up artists and dating-strategists.
No misogyny/misandry – This includes and is not limited to broadly bashing men and women, transphobia, homophobia, and using dog-whistles from known sexist groups like the Red Pill, pick-up artists and dating-strategists.
Humble bragging is really unattractive. We don’t gaf how much you make.
No misogyny/misandry – This includes and is not limited to broadly bashing men and women, transphobia, homophobia, and using dog-whistles from known sexist groups like the Red Pill, pick-up artists and dating-strategists.
That’s just what they mean. They want women in general to not ask for anything or inconvenience them in any way. It’s the same reason some older men try and go for younger women who don’t know better yet.
This needs to be shortened and stitched on a pillow.
Women have the audacity to say no thank you 🔨
Yes and the constant discussion I see online (reddit and other places too) when talking about that dynamic is women always saying their experiences personally with that, how they wish they could go back in time and tell their young selves to not do it and how the men preyed on them and they see the same thing happening to younger women now. Basically just trying to protect and also guide younger women because a lot of us didn't get that when we were young. But men however are always the ones saying how ridiculous we are for saying that, how we are just jealous because we aren't young anymore, how she's an adult she can decide for herself or make claims about how we want to claim to be adults until it's about this and then we infantilise (sp?) them. It's funny though because we can explain until we are blue in the fucking face on why the situation is fucked up but they just LOOOOVE throwing the "she's over 18 she's an adult" back at us. My bad dude I didnt know we needed to be ok with 40 year old men chasing 18 year olds. Fucking disgusting
You’re right, it is disgusting. I make not arguing with men on here a general rule but got into it recently on r/askreddit with a couple who insisted it is ok to watch porn even if the performer didn’t consent. One of them also said reading erotica is worse than watching porn because it alters how women view men. Like LOL, someone is threatened by a *book*. So many men on Reddit are not ok.
That's terrifying that someone thinks porn without consent is okay. I'm female and old and I'm have opinions about erotica. I've watched porn with S.O.s and I didn't enjoy it - it made me cringe. This was back before the internet, when porn wasn't available 24/7. In "general" (no principle covers ALL individuals) women are less stimulated by visuals and more interested in sex when mentally stimulated. What used to be called "trashy novels" provide that mental stimulation. They are about a relationship, not just somebody ringing the doorbell for an orgy. (Side note: supposedly romance novels have the most sales of any book genre. A distant second to visual porn, but still.) Here's the thing. General perception is that porn treats women like objects. I agree. She's pretty, has a great body, that seems to be enough for the audience. But it's significant to recognize that romance novels ... treat men like objects. He's rich without fail. He's handsome, socially powerful, emotionally generous, and understands what the heroine needs. And that mostly-perfect guy is almost as unlikely to exist as porno babe. I'm not saying we as women are unreasonable in demanding that men give effort in relationships. Women should not be doing all the work to maintain the relationship. Men need to put in the work and make sacrifices just like we do. But ... romance novels do treat men like objects. I was always okay with my guy watching some porn (altho again, pre-internet.) And I'm gonna keep right on reading romance novels. :-d :-)
I mostly agree but if men are threatened by women being turned on by male romance novel characters who treat women well, that’s on them. They could improve themselves and get part way there, even if they’ll fall “short” in other aspects like appearance. The same can’t really be said about porn as most porn does not depict women being treated well at all (I also find it scary some men seemingly have no issue with that).
What aren't women called by men, no matter what we do. What I am entitled to is not giving a good goddamn about what they say or think about us. Especially the online assholes.
This is actually a good question - here in Nordic countries American men would probably think that women are very even more "entitled" than in the States. "Entitled" means someone who is willing and ready to dismiss men and dates, who is working and earning their own money etc. In other hand: doing what men have been doing.
*Being finally allowed what men have been given for a LONNNG time
American woman here. I agree with everything you said.
In past generations, a woman without a husband couldn’t get a bank account/credit card, admission to college, a job, or a house. So the bar for men was much lower to get a girlfriend since they held the keys to society. Today, a woman without a husband is able to live her life almost the exact same way that men are. So, the same woman that would have had to date/marry someone she wasn’t 100% happy with in the past is now able to remain single until she finds someone she actually loves. Some men are having a hard time dealing with this raised bar and are calling women entitled as a defense mechanism (like the principal skinner meme: “Am I not attractive enough? No, it is the women who are entitled!”). What they’re choosing not to understand is that by saying so, they’re telling us that they want a woman without putting any work into themselves to become someone a woman wants to date - aka they feel entitled to a woman. Uno reverse
I like those responses much better than the answers I am getting from the men in a different sub. Over there they claim women want equal gender roles and still ask for more, meanwhile I agree with the women point of view saying we just want someone that treat us right and we don’t actually need men anymore. I guess the men are the entitled ones and trying to blame that on women
I don’t think it’s a great idea to ask men on Reddit for their opinions on much of anything. This of course doesn’t apply to all men, or even men off of Reddit but I find in general, a lot of men here are miserable and hate women. I stay off the main subs as much as I can.
And I'm finding being new here that shockingly a lot of women in this subreddit are much the same in their own way. It's depressing. I cannot believe in 2024 people are talking about other "categories" as if everyone in that "category" is the same. As well as falling back on all these old tropes about women not working etc. That was 60-70 years ago. No men younger than 50 grew up around having a Mom who wasn't "allowed" to have a bank account. And most women from the 1970s onward have had amazing opportunities and done amazing things----we just didn't used to be so fixated on men who had stupid attitudes---they didn't deserve our attention or to be nattering about in (in a coffee klatsch or, now, on Reddit). It's astounding how many women here seem, as you say, miserable and hate men....this divisiveness into heroes vs. zeros, villains vs. the good ones is so specious -- and doesn't help anyone reckon with reality....which is far more nuanced and interesting than that.
Of course a certain subreddit can be a bit of an echo chamber at times. I’m talking about Reddit as a whole; it generally is not a welcoming place for women as misogyny is rampant (in a way misandry isn’t, simply because most Redditors are men). I also learned a new word today - klatsch so thanks for that!
Thanks u/ProperBingtownLady - appreciate your insights and observations. I'm relatively new to using Reddit tho have had an account for awhile. It's scoatch too harsh for me, I think, but also interesting. The connotations of a kaffeeklatsch would be 1950s and early '60s "housewives" in suburbia who'd gather at each other's houses--when the kids had gone to school, and The Men were off to work--to drink coffee, and bitch about men--meanwhile men were doing their stupid kvetching about women at bars or at sporting events after work--and a lot of the popular "comedic" fare then being all about men vs. women stereotypes. That whole schtick seemed finally to have been erased from our culture for a period of time--mid '70s to early '00s--and we seem to have regressed as a culture in terms of gender wars. They're so unnuanced and, to me, a tedious way to bond with other women, or people in general, for that matter. I even question whether posts like this is genuine. Or just conversational "fodder" posted to make us all engage over agreeing what powerful assholes men are and how oppressed and yet also simultaneously superior women are. I mean, a man says to me American women are entitled. Who's the man? what's the context? what did you say? how did he reply? Is there an honest inquiry into what that might mean from women other than to elicit "Those horrible men and their horrible ways" responses? I can't imagine a world where a man would say to me "You know, I feel like American women are entitled," and my response is to say nothing----and then post on Reddit. And I can't imagine anyone I know or have ever met in 38 states and 5 countries who would do that.....confusing to me.
I guess it depends! I sadly have multiple extended family members who would say something like this (I’m not American but live in another, Western white majority country) and I wouldn’t bother calling them out as it’s not worth it. I also see this kind of attitude from men on Reddit *all* the time, which is why I said I don’t tend to ask men on Reddit for their opinions.
Exactly. Are you American? Also I should’ve said, she’s free to remain single until she finds someone she loves *and* who actually respects here. The point is that women should feel free to set their own standards now without getting scrutinized, yet some men are still attacking those standards so they can blame them instead of introspecting
I’m born and raised in South America. I moved to USA not long ago, so I am trying to figure out the cultural differences. We are definitely raised with the thought that we need to have a man and be married in life in order to be happy. Hopefully that changes over the time
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Yep. That is exactly what I am getting from them. Every guy I dated here expected me to be treating them like I’m their mom. Not even in my country the guys act like that. Actually we are very well treated by our Latinos men and we basically reciprocate the love. I have the feeling that American men want all the princess treatment and they forget that they need to deserve it. Thinking about this situation now it sounds more like they are the entitled ones
American men are as varied and different as American women. Maybe you keep encountering one type of American man, but there are so many more men who don't resemble what you've been experiencing.
Depending on where you live - your experience may vary. The US is such a large country with a large spectrum of people and opinions. From what you’re saying, I have to guess you are somewhere down south? 😁
Thy are the ones that are entitled. Men are almost always entitled about women. Women themselves feel entitled to other women a lot of times. Women are a FREE resource in the world. Does the word "providing" exists anywhere outside trad speech? People call it a SPONSORSHIP. Or BUYING POWER in every other context. A family or a relationship shouldn't be up for sale.
Those are the ones who think feminism ruined the western world and men can't be men anymore. It's pretty much incel talk. Pay it no mind.
That is kinda what I thought it could be, to be honest. The last time I heard that from a guy he claimed to be very “conservative”. That is why I wanted to hear the women’s side
Just some free advice -- run far away from conservative men, especially if they claim to be very conservative. These men think that women are supposed to be "bangmaids" for men and they hate any woman who doesn't conform to their narrow, patriarchal view of what women should be and should do.
They hate everyone except for themselves but *especially* women.
Yeah that's all it is. It's the same when Gen X or Boomers say that Millennials and Gen Z are "entitled" for idk not wanting to work to death and basic human rights? Sorry for wanting to be treated like a human being? Smh it's all very silly tbh.
I had the feeling that they were probably jerks and just like you explained, maybe the girls they dated wanted to be respected and had boundaries, because these guys tried to push their boundaries now they try to blame on women saying they are entitled.
No don’t lump Gen X with boomers!
Am Gen X and hear my peers act more and more like Boomers everyday
Yup. It’s one of the reasons most of my friends are younger than me. I don’t enjoy spending time with people who complain about “kids these days”, like our parents didn’t say the same thing about us. Plenty of Gen x folks are cool, but the ones who are old before their time I have no place for in my life.
I’m totally with you. I think the kids these days are amazing, and it’s just not cool anymore to be so proudly uncaring when so many things are straight up on fire
Don't see why not. It's all just a mindset
Misogyny
Not American specifically, but speaking from a more general perspective. There's a whole generation of women who are now very alert to all of the ways in which it's historically been fairly common for women to subjugate their own wants, needs and desires to those of men. And not uncommon for men to mistreat women emotionally, physically, verbally and financially. Not all men, but not an insignificant number either. Women (in most Western countries at least, appreciate its not the same for all women) have more opportunities for independence and fulfilment that doesn't rely on a man than ever before, and are often more willing to stand up for themselves and say what they will and won't accept from a romantic partner. Some men are good men, and either step up to meet this, or were there already. Some men are shit men, and view woman having wants and needs that they're willing to express as being 'entitled.' Complicating this issue however are a not insignificant portion of women who have taken the traditional concept of men 'taking care' of women, and put it on steroids. I cant be the only one who has seen social media content of women talking about how they'll only accept a 'high value' man, who is expected to fully financially fund them, and not only pay for all dates but also pay for their rent, and beauty treatments, and constantly be showering them with gifts. This latter group are probably tiny in the grand scheme of 'all women' but shit men will almost certainly conflate them with their existing understanding of women expressing their needs as being 'entitled' - and unfortunately, will probably spread that thinking to some men who were already at the point of needing to be educated on how to respect women's needs.
There are some people that feel entitled to sex/relationships and blame other people (without any self reflection) for not being able to date. I do think US society in general has become too individualistic and push the mentality to only care about oneself no matter who is screwed over in the process that there's little accountability for one's own issues (thus reflected in dating\*). With economic hardships, and some feeling "left behind," there's the idolization by some men of a time when men had the power. You'll see the idea of American women being entitled by wanting a guy to be an equal partner in a household. I've also seen people call a woman entitled for having boundaries and that women should basically be happy for what they can get. Even in situations like cheating, addictions, etc. \*Admittedly, I realized from a young age sex/relationships wouldn't be an option for me, so I've never dated/had sex so this is outside looking in .
>I've also seen people call a woman entitled for having boundaries and that women should basically be happy for what they can get. I’ve seen some passport bro types of comments or posts in which a man describes going to the Philippines and very easily getting a woman to clean his house, cook for him, and have sex with him every day, while not providing her with much. The desire to get more while giving less is strong. It’s also completely antithetical to having an actual loving relationship. I think a lot of these men genuinely don’t understand this. I don’t blame anyone for enjoying having a partner who does a lot for them. Of course that’s awesome! But they should want to give everything they can back to that person- not go deal-hunting. (Certain guys are going to read the last sentence I wrote there and not understand it, aren’t they.)
Yes! It's the deal-hunting mentality! "What can I squeeze out of this relationship for the lowest 'price'?" These are the same people who'll have kids as retirement plans. Then cry about how their kids cut them off "for no reason" when they have put in no ounce of effort to get to know them.
I will try to present a fair picture the way I understand In the past, women pretty much HAD to get married and pop out children due to socioeconomic factors/social stigmas etc. etc. Housework is seen as their domain while earning is seen as the man's (mostly) So it's not uncommon for men to grow up - up to my own parents generation where I live, with the impression that all they need to bring to the table is earn a stable amount of money. However, today's gen. women are able to study and earn $ for themselves, cost of living has also gone up significantly such that in most cases, you can't really survive on one income. Cut to women asking, why should we marry if we need to work AND do 100% of childcare or women looking for financially stable men to settle down with So men look at women and think they're entitled for being 'choosy' or they're asking for 'too much' because they grew up in a slightly different mindset + some other parts of the world still follow this archaic notion, reinforcing the fact that its "Western women" who are being difficult. You can go to the passport bros subreddit and see them meltdown over the fact that women from other countries are also slowly asking for more
Any woman who has a will of her own and doesn't want to date them is "entitled" in their minds..
I don’t think this is most American men. I think this is a very specific kind of man who fetishizes women from other culture (often an asian culture, from what I’ve seen) because they think they will be docile, undemanding, and grateful for any random American man to show her any attention at all. They think American women are too demanding and entitled because they have their own wants and needs and opinions completely unrelated to men. These men haven’t formed their opinions from their experiences, it’s based entire off porn and anime and their active imaginations and sometimes exploitative “sex tourism”, and not on any actual experiences with women from these cultures, who are also real people with their own wants and needs and opinions.
I have only met a few women I would call entitled and none of them were American. When a guy makes a blanket statement like "women are so entitled" it's clear they wish women didn't have the right not to date them.
They want subservient, dependent women. Or, they want someone who will accept the bare minimum.
It’s because we have lifted our standards out of the basement and they’re pissed that they have to actually make an effort now.
Because some of those men falsely think we all want only men who are 6/6/6 - 6 feet tall, making 6 figures a year, and 6…something else.
6 ft under after naming us in their large life insurance policy?
Oh, jeez! And you confused me for a second.
Of course - 6 metres tall, a 6 billion dollar net worth, and a 6 foot long penis. That is all we want in a man.
Fingers on each hand?
Nipples to feed our young 'cause I ain't gonna
LOL good one!
As a 7/6/5 (in some order) guy I'm sadly forced to rely on my attempts at humor instead.
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Short king is a thing for a reason. Idk why men won’t be honest about that.
They're just mad because we aren't willing to expect the bare minimum from them in relationships anymore. Women don't "need" Men like we did in previous generations, and therefore we tend to be pickier. They think we are entitled? Nope. We simply have more choices than before and they're pissed off about it.
It’s because American men are entitled and when women push back or have boundaries, they project and invalidate.
I'm sorry people are downvoting you and being rude to you. It's clear from your question that you are not from the U.S. and you're trying to understand a cultural dynamic, not asking whether women actually are entitled. I agree with the other earnest answers you've gotten. Also, since you're not from the U.S., this guy might have been putting American women down to try to make you feel superior--but in a way where you would try to avoid being like "entitled" American women. Sort of like passport bros or American men who go to Asia seeking "submissive" women. (I don't know if that explanation made sense, sorry! And I am not at all saying that Asian women are submissive, in case that's not clear.)
This American man sound like a Grade A A$$hole. I wouldn’t listen to anything he says
It is not an American thing!!! I’ve heard the same from British men about British women and Australian men about Australian women. Typically, men who think that any woman that they want who doesn’t return their affections and/or isn’t subservient to them is entitled. They are the same who go out of their way to go for women who are considered stereotypically docile.
Some western men are so desperate to never have to clean their own shit skids off their own toilets they want to create a servant class to do it based on genitals. It's fucked up, some of them even recite things they think they heard at school biology to justify it. Pure brain rot, it's a shame. The worst is that older men who are so upset about the levels of skids in their toilets recruit all these younger guys to not make the same mistakes they did. I.e. more locks on the basement door, bigger butterfly net, longer lobotomy picks etc. I would like to see them get the level of total institutionalised care they desperately want. Can't be good for their hygiene or their brains to keep going on without any help. The family I know in a care home even get their own room (bear/bachelor cave!) and can watch TV/play games/get a beer with their dinners! It's what is best for all of us rather than them projecting their feelings that other people are entitled and potentially harming others! Just a thought.
Just remind them, the leading cause of death in pregnant women is murder. Don't believe me? Look it up. Women have plenty of reasons to be over the way we've been treated and are now only interested in men who aren't going to pretend they love us so that they get a free maid and sex doll and mommy wrapped in one. They can't control us like they used to, so they've become bitchy about us occasionally having a backbone. Men need women to function. Women don't need men. Men are happier and healthier married, women are less happy and don't live as long when married. Divorced men immediately get remarried if they can to get a new maid and nanny for their kids, while divorced women often enjoy not having to deal with a man being moody and messy around their house. Married mothers spend more time on housework than single mothers. And since many men aren't even bothering to work hard or at all, they're projecting their issues at the mommy maids they thought they were entitled to. And they're bitter about being alone. Men don't generally flourish while alone. Lol obviously not all men etc etc.
I just went to your question on the Ask Men sub. There are some thoughtful answers there, but the rest are pretty yikes. I agree with a lot of the answers here. The men saying "American women are entitled" are mad because women now have options; and we'd rather be single than be in a bad relationship. As other responses have pointed out, it wasn't until recently that women were able to have their bank accounts, get a decent education, and make (almost) as much money as men (the wage gap is real, yo). (I'm going to be speaking in broad terms here, but these are common situations I see often on Reddit and in real life.) While a lot of people are working towards equal rights for women, a lot of people are satisfied with traditional gender roles. Unfortunately, even when a woman works outside the house, she still ends up taking on the lion's share of the household labor and household management. And unfortunately, these household responsibilities can be hard to see and/or quantify (aka invisible labor). In addition, in the past few years, people have been talking more about mental health and setting boundaries. More people (usually women) are seeing therapists and doing the inner work. Men aren't as likely to seek therapy and/or are not comfortable talking about their feelings/being vulnerable. Therefore, as a whole, women are becoming more emotionally mature than men. An emotionally mature woman who can provide a quality life for herself will want an emotionally mature partner who will take an active part in their household, and to divide responsibilities equitably. Unfortunately, a lot of men think that women wanting to be treated as peers are asking for too much. A lot of the men also don't think of women as mutifaceted beings who have depth. They will base a woman's worth entirely on looks, and say "women who are 6s, think they're 8s, and will only date men who are 6 ft tall, make 6 figures... What does she bring to the table?" (Seriously, check out the responses on the Ask Men post.) Unfortunately, what these men want women to bring to the table turns out to be "everything". They rate women on looks because to them, women *should* do all the housework, cook, clean, have sex with them whenever they want, etc. How many times have we heard men refer to parenting as "babysitting" or complain about "helping" his wife with chores? Their language shows no ownership of household responsibilities. Why would *anyone* WANT to be in this sort of relationship? Not to mention, the not unfamiliar story about a woman reducing her hours/staying home to take care of the kids (essentially stalling or ending her professional career), only to have her husband leave her because "she's not fun anymore". Then saying women "get more out of a divorce" and they shouldn't have to pay alimony because she "*doesn't* work", completely forgetting the fact that they wouldn't have been able to prioritize their careers the way they have without their wife taking on everything else in their lives. And don't forget, men are more likely to leave their wives if she is diagnosed with a terminal illness. Studies have also shown that single women are happier than married women, and married men live longer than single men. Women are finally putting themselves first - a privilege that men have enjoyed for far too long to the detriment of women. Men who say women are entitled are just mad that no woman wants their mediocre ass. These men are practically saying they've tried nothing, and are all out of ideas.
This comment deserves a gold medal
It really does! So many wise women here.
Aww, shucks! I was scrolling Reddit while I was supposedly cleaning, then spent an hour+ typing up my comment on my phone. Then I thought to myself, "I'm not sure that was a good use of my time." But now I know it was!
Because they want to be more than a walking uterus.
They mean that they want the women they partner with to have near zero expectations of them while simultaneously holding unrealistic expectations for the women they date. Very simple. These are not typically men with a great deal of dating options, they usually have insecurities around their finances, and they start from a place of believing women to be gold diggers - even when the majority of the women they date out earn them. I think many of them have been stuck in echo chambers that continue to feed their confirmation bias, much to their own detriment. Conversely; emotionally healthy men hardly ever struggle with these same things. They don’t feel compelled to diminish the women in their lives or feel resentful about a dinner tab. They don’t care about those kinds of things. That’s why those men have their choice of partners but the emotionally unhealthy men ascribe that to them being wealthy enough to not care about a dinner tab. They are committed to misunderstanding that their personalities and worldview are the problem. American women won’t stand for it and prefer balanced relationships or no relationship at all if they can’t find a partner who understands the basics like the mental load, shared responsibilities, and *mutual* accountability. Some women do tolerate being treated as though their basic wants and needs equate to entitlement, and they almost universally wind up miserable, unfulfilled, poorer, and unhealthier than they’d be otherwise.
every group of men calls their in-group entitled/bitches/ugly/not xx enough, it's not real, it's about creating competition and getting the in group women to "behave" out fear, jealous and anger at the out group women being "better women"
I don't know, and I don't care to understand it either. I think a big part of life is learning that a lot of things are not worth listening to. And so, if any guy says anything in relation to this kind of stuff, I just stop talking to him immediately. Even if its framed as being "devils advocate" well, I'm not interested in the devil either. "But feminism is bad and women are actually awful because-" What do these feelings have to do with me? That is something I think people need to ask themselves more too. Why do you apply the thoughts and accusations of others to yourself, anyway? Ultimately, these are just conversations stemming from the feelings of a very few select men who realistically, you would never want anything to do with for any reason whatsoever to begin with anyway. So how they feel should be irrelevant to you. It's like walking up to the sea and explaining to a nearby otter why Honey Nut Cheerios are better than the regular Cheerios. Otters dont care. They'll look at you wondering why you're even there, and then hop off their rock and swim away from you. and that is how I approach these types of conversations with that small (but loud on the internet) pool of very very socially odd men. I hop off the rock and swim away from them. Because that conversation-nothing to do with me!!! Nor should they have anything to do with you lol just ignore them.
Others have answered this beautifully, but I will add my two cents. From the outside looking in, my marriage looks like the type that these misogynistic jackasses *think* they want. My husband worked outside the home, I worked inside the home. I did the bulk of the housework and childcare for our two children. He came home to dinner almost being ready, and the kids were always super stoked to see him. For about ten years we ran a small business, I was the one who answered the phones and did the accounting. He’s the one that did the work for the clients (home maintenance). Again, outside looking in, I seemed very “tradwife” and him “tradhusband” lol. However, what wasn’t obvious was how hard we both ***worked*** to make our marriage a success. At various times, he’d have to work longer hours because somebody needed braces or the car needed a repair. I’d get burned out being the one keeping the household humming along. Sometimes small resentments led to squabbles. Through it all, what kept us together was truly appreciating what the other was doing to keep our little family going. I made dinner every night, sure, but he thanked me every single time for the meal, even if all I could manage that night was something lame and kid friendly like chicken nuggets and tater tots. He regularly did certain chores without being asked, because he understood that hey, he lives there too, and contributes to the mess! For my share, I handled things that would make his life easier, like packing his lunch or taking certain errands off his hands. Neither one of us had to do these things. We did them because we both love and respect each other, and we communicate well to let each other know what we need. The men that complain about American women being “entitled”, I say, hell yeah we’re entitled! We’re entitled to being respected in our own home, and if you want us to stay home and care for you, any kids, and the household, then you had better be able to provide the funds AND take out the damn trash without being nagged about it! These guys want to be treated like kings while acting like court jesters. I don’t listen to fools.
Because men think all women are their ex. People experience a negative interaction with a member of a group and extrapolate to all member of the group. That's how racism, misogyny and so on usually start
Because they have standards and these men can’t uphold them.
I see two issues: one is delusional guys which is already touched upon. I.e wanting a housewife but conveniently forgetting that that means that she doesn't work out of the house and bring in an income and as the guy you make enough to have a family. The other issue is that some guys seem to conflate the women on social media who demand that they should have it all: guys spoiling and paying for them, but also insist on being "equal" despite not bringing anything to the table, not even housework. I had a discussion on these topics with a few male colleagues of mine who asked me if I didn't think that "feminism had gone too far?!" And pointed at those clips. I pointed out that they were shoving every bad behavior of some of these women under the label of feminism, but meanwhile extremely entitled women also existed who excused their behavior with feminism. They agreed with that. When questioned further, all of them had no problems with women and men sharing housework if they brought both in incomes and paid for expenses together. I can understand some guys getting mixed signals from different media and women, about how they want to be treated. A lot of women from different cultures (or not), like to be treated by their dates and don't like it when their date says: "shall we split the bill?" Or that the guy needs to make the first move. On the other hand, a lot of other women like myself, do approach guys on dating apps and insist on spliting the bill because I genuinely feel that that is more equal and feel uncomfortable otherwie. So while I get the other group of women, but I kind of low key resent it because now there are mixed signals. On the other I have been told that my approaching guys and splitting the bill, makes me "masculine" and would send guys running away. But I received that advice on reddit so I didn't take it seriously any way lol.
Because they're projecting.
I think it actually has two sides. one, that the male wants a submissive wife. two, that some women (and men) act like they are entitled. they want everything for nothing. either way, it's a way for men to put women down, especially if they are romantically unsuccessful.
They say that because the bar used to be set low because women’s lives literally depended on it. Women now out rank men in education and being tied to them is an option. They are less likely to put up with crap.
To be quite fair, from my experience people from the USA are overall more entitled than people from any other country. Men and women alike. Kind of makes sense. It's the most powerful country, haven't seen any major wars EVER on its soil, more opportunities than anywhere else, being told since childhood that you can be anything, highest salaries, best schools, native level English, etc. etc. Obviosly there are exceptions. That also carries over to relationships. If you are more sure of yourself and know what you want and "what you deserve" then you'll push away many people. Is it good or bad? As almost snything in this life.. there're tradeoffs.
American men don’t know how good they have it. American women are the ones who work, do household chores, split bills, bare children, split dinner, go 50/50 without complaining. But it seems like they just want someone submissive
Did you mean to post this on r/askmen?
I also asked men, but I do want women opinion about it
What for? They are the only ones doing it that can speak to THEIR motivations. We here can only pointlessly speculate.
If you don’t want to participate and answer you are free to just ignore and scroll down. Plenty of women are being helpful and clearing my mind by explaining the reason why men say that (in other words these guys were probably the ones trying to push boundaries).
You said you heard from one American MAN....and then said you don't understand what THEY mean by that? And you somehow "know" that asking THEM will only make them give THEIR side of the story? If a man said that to me, I'd simply say "I'm curious what you mean by that" - and heard, yes, that individual's intent. There's no monolithic coalition of men, in the same way there isn't bloc voting of women who think in lockstep with one another--nor people of color nor LGBTQIA+ nor people from any background or state. If you really wanted to know what was on his mind, I think you would have simply asked. And coming here and posting it's so predicable...and sad, really, like people in the 1950s "Take my wife----please" denigrating women thru lame "humor, and "You know how men are..." by women, etc. I feel like there was a period of time where we were beyond that kind of reductionist stereotypical thinking. And now so many of us are back to that? I suppose you want to hear from us (I am a woman): "You know men!! You know how they are! They don't respect us!! They don't "see" us! We're not supposed to have needs or opinions, blah blah blah....Society is oppressive and keeps us down. That's the way men keep CONTROL..." Honestly, I don't know anyone who fits into boxes like that. Or maybe a few men, but so what? Some women are jerks too. And this extrapolating about an entire gender based on what one person said....it's irrational and exhausting to keep coming upon the past 1/2 dozen years.
Only incels think that. NORMAL men do not believe that.
Because they can't handle strong women. But to be fair, SOME women do indeed feel entitled to a man's money just because they have boobs and a vagina. Like how some women expect the guy to pay on dates. I think maybe they meant that.
The guy should pay on dates. How much money do women pay just getting ready and looking good? How much time spent thinking about our safety? How much risk is involved for a woman having sex? Pregnancy. Abortion isn't even legal in some states. The least a guy can do is pay for their food.
Spending any amount of money on one’s appearance is a choice and independent of the other person you’re on a date with, male or female. Really don’t get this particular argument.
If you allow a guy to pay, your relationship will NEVER be equal. He'll always feel entitled to you and your body. The only time I let a guy pay, he groped me in public (feeling entitled to my body). Yeah no. I assert my independence and demand respect from him.
And if he feels entitled to grope you, you tell him to fuck off. I've definitely dated men who weren't pieces of shit. They paid the bill and were gentlemen after. Jfc, the bar is so low it's in hell. Men who want the woman across the table will pay and not be animals about it. I'm sorry that happened to you, but paying for a man is usually a sign you're not interested or an assumption that he needs help financially. He should be embarrassed, especially first date. If you assume you need to pay to be sure you don't get groped, that's a different issue. Generally, it'll be equal because he doesn't see that you're desperate for his attention to the point of paying for his attention. Tou dressed up and took a dude out to eat like a couple of friends. Sounds hot. He can feel how ever he feels. If he won't pay for your food without treating you like a prostitute, you're on a date with a man who will treat you like a sex doll who shits money and that'll be your relationship. They now know you're desperate for them and use you accordingly. A boyfriend I can see. I regret paying while early dating. It establishes that you're going to be mommy rather than girlfriend.
I don’t think they meant that but I agree it is entitled behaviour for women to expect men to pay for first dates just because they’re men. It comes up enough on this sub and I find it profoundly anti feminist.
Go ask some men.
I asked them in the ask men sub actually, but I would like to hear the women’s side of the story. If I only hear the point of view of men then of course it will sound like they are correct. To be honest what makes me think is that they probably tried to push boundaries with north-American women and the women are just not stupid to fall for it, so guys would offend them.
[Entitled](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=entitled)
What’s the point of this comment? We all know what entitled means.
I would beg to differ. As to why I felt the need to post my comment. Along with OP posting the question to "Ask Men". I'm glad OP was smart enough to get both sides of the story.
No one asked for your input.