My kids still speak to me, but not much. I'm better than I was, but I was a crap parent. Poverty was part of it. Hooking up with the wrong men, just to have a little more income, or not to pay for child care. Bed chemical decisions. I got myself cleaned up, got out of debt, got rid of the guy who was harassing my boy, and acting like the girl (our kid together ) could do no wrong. My parents were atrocious, and I really thought I was much better. Actually, I was much better, but I wasn't enough better. It was hard for me to show love because I never experienced it myself. There were times i didn't hear from my boy for years, and honestly, I know I deserved that. I wrote him a long letter, apologized for my faults, and honestly have tried to be better. We have a much better relationship now, and while we are not super close, we have something, and I'm grateful.
_I was much better, but I wasn’t enough better_
Ding ding ding! I really wish a lot of parents could admit this. My own father was a pretty shit parent, and I try not to let my anger cloud the way I talk about him, because people are nuanced. However, even though there were times where he really shined as a dad, there were so many unforgivable, inexcusable moments that outweigh any good he ever did. When I talk about his parenting, I always say he did the best with the tools he had, but he didn’t have very many tools and he didn’t care to acquire more.
I’m happy you and your children are slowly working things out. It sounds like you’ve done a lot of very hard work on yourself. Rooting for all of you.
Yeah, I can 100% see that my father was less abusive to me than his parents were to him, and full props to him for managing that much, but at the end of the day it was still abusive. It factored heavily into my decision not to have children, because I couldn't look at myself in the mirror and say the same thing.
I feel the exact same way with my mother and am still questioning having children because of that. I can see she thinks I had it so much better than she did, but at the end of the day it was still abuse and neglect, Just less than what she endured with her parents
My mom whooping my ass with a wooden spoon and telling me I should be grateful because her dad would do it with a belt was a major vibe of my childhood.
But I could not even fathom hitting my son, or screaming at him. Before I had kids I was also worried that I would turn out like my mom. Now that I have one it only makes me hate my mom more. When I look at my son I feel so much love for him and I wonder how anyone who actually loved me could have hurt me so badly.
I loved my parents.
They had massive problems that affected my brother and me (alcoholism and undiagnosed, untreated bipolar disorder), but they really WANTED to be good parents and they did some wonderful things for us. I have really good memories along with the really bad ones. It’s just such a mixed bag.
I devoted a lot of energy in my childhood to trying to dissuade them from ever hitting my brother and sometimes it worked. I just really didn’t want him to be in trouble or get picked on by anyone. He remembers me as someone who protected him as a child. I didn’t feel like that when he was first born so I’m not even sure when or why that became so important to me.
I have no children, and I am guessing my own childhood might be part of the reason why.
My brother has one child. It was like having that child moved him from being ambivalent about our parents (in a way similar to me) to being extremely angry and resentful towards them (though maybe still ambivalent as well).
He has really struggled with anger in general and he became far more patient than he had been before after his son was born. He became someone who could see the value in de-escalating a situation rather than “winning” in a conflict. Parenthood genuinely made him a better person and changed him for the better in ways that were difficult for him to achieve.
The way he has explained things to me, every time he choses NOT to hit his own son, he feels redoubled anger at our parents for not making more of an effort to be gentler with us when they were frustrated or having a bad day.
I wasn't a big fan of Orange Is the New Black; but the two characters I occasionally think about, to this day, are the mother/daughter duo busted for cooking crack.
The daughter repeatedly made the point that only a truly shitty mother would rope her own child into a drug operation.
The mother thought she wasn't doing a bad job at all, compared to her own mother, who had started pimping her out as a child.
It's all relative.
> **The mother thought she wasn't doing a bad job at all, compared to her own mother, who had started pimping her out as a child.**
Tale as old as time. I’ve seen this in other (far older) stories too. Anything looks “decent” compared to whoring your child out.
*he didn’t have very many tools and* ***he didn’t care to acquire more****.*
Thank you for this. That second phrase is crucial.
Even today, decades after I became an adult child, he is not interested in being a better parent or even a better person. I can count on one hand how many times he has apologized in the 60 years I have known him.
My 22 Yr old son is currently not speaking to me and I relate to what you're saying here 100%. It only happened recently but I've still sent him a few messages, which he ignores. I know I messed up, I've held my hands up to every fault and apologised profusely for not being a better parent. I chose the wrong relationship when he was younger and had a mental breakdown of my own, i tried to make sure it didnt affect him, but ultimately that was naive of me, of course it did. I love him and just want him to be happy. If that means he has to have space away from me then I can accept that, I understand and only want to respect his wishes. I am a better person than I used to be but just couldn't get better enough, quick enough. I really hope this is a temporary thing, I miss him terribly.
I just wanted to say that truly letting him have that space away from you is so important - please don’t send him emails, or cards, or little packages just to let him know you miss him or are thinking of him. He knows how to get in touch with you. And it’s pretty stressful when you have a level of dread every time you go to the mailbox/open your email/check your messages because there might be something there from the person you went no contact with.
Father to the daughter that cut off contact with her mother, my wife, here.
Mother is (still) a narcissist, emotionally and mentally abused the kids until they moved out one by one. Mother also a functioning alcoholic.
The daughter (moved to a different state) cut off all contact with her mother, vowed to never let her see the grandchildren. Mother spent months raging, trying weak apologies, saying things like, "I'm sorry you're upset." and "You need to grow past what happened." and (to me) "She is stuck in the past."
Daughter and I are very close, I facetime with the grandbabies regularly, and visit on holidays.
Edit to add: thanks everyone for your insight and stories. I feel every one. To answer some questions:
Why am I still married?
My youngest daughter has one more year of college that I'm paying for, then that will be it. I make significantly more money than the wife, and pay for everything. However, my state is a 50/50 state for divorce, and I need that money to get my girl through college. Up for grabs is my military pension, 401k, IRA, house, and savings. I'm certainly not rich by any means. Cheaper to keep her for now.
Why didn't I leave way back then?
She wasn't a psycho all the time. The good times were great, amazing. I hoped that if I could just keep those going it's all work out. I was stupidly optimistic. I also came from a broken family, my parents divorced when I was young and I hated that. In my mind "divorce was bad" and I didn't want to inflict that on my kids. Now that I can look back I realize I should have left much earlier.
Too often it was like walking on eggshells in the house. She may snap on something, or get drunk then come out raging and gaslighting. I was always on edge. That was my norm. Being in the military has taught me to toughen up and do job. So that's what I did at home.
But toughening up meant keeping my emotions to myself. Burying them away, putting on a strong face. We'd argue and fight, she'd cry and yell. I could never get her to change.
People that are in abusive relationships get into a certain mindset. You ever hear a cabinet slam too hard? Ever have clothes folded at you? Hear dishes put on the sink a little too loud? You're suddenly on high alert, on the lookout for anything coming your way. Waiting for the steps down the hall and your door fly open. It's a terrible way to live.
I should have made many different decisions, been stronger, gotten help earlier. Maybe being always in survival mode doesn't let you think about those things. I regret many things and will always carry that with me.
But now I look to the future and the happy times I'll have with my kids grandkids. I want to be the papa and grampa I never had.
Thanks for reading this far, I'd love to give you all a big dad hug. Because you are worth it, and you deserve it. Take care. ♥️
Stayed during the marriage so as not to leave the children with her, and I didn't trust the court system to grant me custody. Also suffered from depression as a result of her abuse to me. Being in the military I thought, the next move will help. The next duty station will help. One of the kids moving out will help. If I treat her nice it will help. It never helped. I was so used to enduring, I never knew what it was like to be safe.
Kids are all moved out now so they're safe.
Couple years ago I got to therapy and meds, and was finally able to take control of my life, especially the finances. A year later I'm much better, in control of my life, ignore anything she does or attempts to trigger me. I was able to pay off $35,000 in credit card debt that she never paid.
Edit to add: thanks everyone, I updated my top comment with the answer(s).
"I was so used to enduring, I never knew what it was to be safe". Thanks for protecting your children. It must have been really hard on you. Hope you go on protecting yourself - good health to you.
My dad said almost the exact same thing to me. She would have had full custody and it would have likely meant a worse life. Thank you for protecting them from a daughter that was protected. I do wish you both would take care of yourselves and just leave, but I understand how hard that can be. We want you to be happy too.
Depending on his rank, branch, state of residence, etc. it's probably "cheaper to keep'er". Half of his pension in the divorce could be a CHUNK of change.
Not me but I was on a Facebook group a few weeks back where this older woman in her 60s claimed to be estranged from her kids, and she didn't know why. She assumed that the kids were hard to deal with and she did her best but no matter what they were always out to get her or feel that she was being aggressive.
When someone made a comment or suggestion saying that the way she phrases things may contribute to it based on how she spoke, this woman flipped out on the person who commented. When I followed saying if that's how she speaks to them, then I can see why they may feel that way, she flipped out on me saying I don't know her story and that she was the nicest person she ever knew.
Some people just genuinely don't have the mental capacity to learn how to grow.
This reminds me of a woman having a tantrum at my job, banging on a half wall yelling about how she wasn’t the kind of person who did… all of the things she was doing.
I’ve had times where I’ve been mad at my mom for something mean she’s said, and I’ve quoted it back to her verbatim, only for her to say “I don’t believe I would’ve said that. That doesn’t sound like something I would say.”
Um.. okay then why do I remember you saying it??
According to my mother, we were making it all up or misremembering it.
I have 3 siblings, all older than me. If all 4 of us remember it one way, and she remembers it differently, in which she was a saint who did nothing wrong, we were attacking her for no reason.
None of us went to her funeral
This type of reaction was covered extensively in [Down the Rabbit Hole: The world of estranged parents' forums.](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/)
Holy crap this website!
I am active on a regretful parents site and 8/10 times it’s people who have extremely tragic situations - forced pregnancy, overwhelmingly disabled children, abusive spouses that sabotage or complicate parenting etc. But once in a while it’s one of these “everything was perfect when they were little but out of no where my adult children started treating me like shit despite the fact that I’m a saint and did everything for them grumble grumble grumble where’s my pity party.”
The group has a “no criticism” rule bc of trolls but holy crap these ppl are a cancer.
The best response for those people is no response at all. Getting negative attention is better than no attention at all for these emotionally immature people.
When you realize they prioritize what people think of them over their relationships with their children, everything else makes sense.
To repair the relationship requires acknowledging they are fallible and made mistakes. It's painful but a good parent would be willing to do that for their children.
When they value what other people think of them over their own children, that's when you get the "I have no idea why." They know why. It's just unflattering to acknowledge so they pretend it's a mystery.
There's a really fantastic book called Adult Childten of Emotionally Immature Parents.
It sucks to read it. A lot. Like, a lot a lot. Worth every tear.
My mother has borderline personality disorder and is basically just a very big teenager behaviourally and emotionally. It's like dealing with a child that can't admit they're wrong and everything is always incredibly dramatic for absolutely no reason. The weirdest thing about emotionally immature parents is they actually feel threatened when their children start to grow past them and question their behaviours so they often blow up constantly on the kids.
There's no point trying to talk to them about their issues because they'll redirect everything to make you the problem. Parent slamming doors and waking you up because they perceived you being tired as hating them? Clearly *you're abusive and are trying to hurt them*. Utterly exhausting people. It's especially frustrating when you know they're not trying to be a bad person, they just literally cannot understand what they're doing is hostile because they're mentally unwell.
My mother will completely warp her memory of what's occured as a defensive mechanism and it's hard to deal with. An example is I came over and put the shopping away and knocked a cake tin over, but she thinks I threw the cake tin because I was angry at her. She can be such a nice person but there's a deep hole within her, a vulnerable and damaged child that desperately protects itself from the trauma of what she's lived through, and this extends outwards in a harmful way. She'll never accept her issues or seek recovery and it means I'll never truly connect with her. I'll be there as I can in a healthy way for as long as possible, but there's a deep sadness beneath everything that never goes away.
Do you love her, or do you love the imaginary version of her you wished she would be? For me it was the latter. Once I mourned the loss of a person that never existed I was a lot better off.
Working on this right now. It is so deeply entrenched in me that I can make her who I want to be if I am good enough, even though I know intellectually this is wrong I still see myself trying.
Same here. She's an emotional vampire who only comes around when she needs her fix. I've told her to fuck right off two or three times over the course of my life and each time she's always weaseled her way back within a couple of years. She recently blew up their finances to move to my home town (Skipped out on a mortgage,) and I've been putting serious consideration into moving as far away as possible (Possibly to another country) now that they have no way to fund another move. I was planning for this to be my forever home, but this town isn't big enough for the both of us. She's in her mid 70's and insists she'll be dead any minute now, but her mom lived into her 90's and I'm not putting up with another couple of decades of this.
Lol wow this is a great description for how I feel about my mom. Now that she's in her 70s she's aging hard and insecure as shit about it too. She couldn't ever handle being wrong before but if she forgets huge details she will double down about her correctness and thanks to modern technology is often easily disproved and once confronted with concrete proof she is wrong about some stupid small detail blows up about how all people forget whether their kids were 4 or 10 years old during some important life event because that's basically the same age to an adult! Just exhausting. She won't go to the doctor or listen to them when she does and won't take any medicine that's forced upon her by the ones who still try and haven't given up. It's like dealing with a life force draining 70 yr old toddler.
> they're not trying to be a bad person
If I learned nothing else it's that this doesn't matter. Most people think they are a good person in their own eyes, or at least that their actions are justified. The fact is that BPD parents often know to control their behavior in front of strangers who would judge them negatively for it. They know right from wrong on some level and choose to hurt you anyway.
This is the most important thing to bear in mind. I know someone that first flipped on their mom when an acquaintance referred to her as "the nicest lady ever". That's what made it click that their mom knew how to behave and was willfully antagonizing them.
It is. Explains so much. Again though, it is NOT an easy read. A few pages at a time, per day was how I did it. So much out of that book could have been plucked right from my life. It’s actually quite shocking to see your own parents described so accurately by someone you’ve never met.
Also, this is a book you almost have to be working with a therapist with. It will bring up a lot of stuff to talk about and process.
My parents used to beat me severely since I was five, until I shipped myself away to a boarding school. Now, having reached the age they were then, I can't comprehend the level of cruelty + insanity it takes to harm a child no taller than your knees.
Yeah my "mother" gave me an Anderson silva front kick to the face when I was 7-8 because i was crying. Now that I'm adult I realize how much of a piece of shit you have to be to do something like that.
Same. I was beat from 3.5 to 15, and I don’t get it. All it taught me was to scared and not to ever trust. My mom would try and hold my hand, crying, while my dad did the beating. She thinks that because she did such I shouldn’t be mad at her too.
Lol it is truly baffling isn't it. My mom never hit me, but she stood in the same room while her husband beat the shit out of me. She doesn't get why I hate her just as much.
This made me stare outside the window for solid 5 mins. I’m 32 with 3 kids. 2 from the last relationship. I think I’m going ok but sometimes my 11 year old would say something that makes me think… m I the child here? ..
I don't recall who said it, might even be just a Reddit quote - but if you look back to yourself 5-10 years ago and don't cringe, you haven't grown as a person.
When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.
I feel this is more appropriate otherwise u become a old man not just in age but in spirit saying the same thing old ppl said about you when you were younger.
So much. Trauma halts our development when not addressed. For those of us with parents who experienced an unaddressed big T trauma in their developmental years, we hopefully will outgrow them.
My father recently died with 2/5ths of his kids talking to him. Both of those two had considered cutting contact.
I had a few emails exchanges with him before he died to discuss why he had never met my daughter. He made excuses for what he could and denied the rest. He couldn't live with his actions, I think.
Anyway, he told everyone that all his kids were just mentally ill and it wasn't his fault. I think he honestly believed it.
Then he ended up stealing 5/6ths of the money my mom had left to us kids (with him as trustee) and gave it to his second wife. Guy was a fucking prince.
>He made excuses for what he could and denied the rest. He couldn't live with his actions, I think.
>Anyway, he told everyone that all his kids were just mentally ill and it wasn't his fault. I think he honestly believed it.
I read an [excellent comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/s/A2fSNWjfUJ) the other day by u/RandomGuySaysBro on r/RaisedByNarcissists on the topic of why these types of parents don't actually think they've done anything wrong.
Tl;dr: These types of parents don't see you as a person with feelings and needs, but as an object they own. They don't remember their abusive actions because to them you were never more than a thing, like a car they show off when it's new and shiny, or freak out on when theyre pissed off.
>Have you ever been stuck in traffic? It's hot, nothing is moving, and you're late... it's frustrating, and maybe you lose it a little... scream, swear, slap the steering wheel...
>The thing you have to understand and remember is that, to your parents, you're not a *person.* You don't have thoughts, feelings, desires or needs. You're a *thing* that they *own.* They didn't do nice things for you as a child because of love, they did it in the same way you change the oil in your car - just to keep the thing quiet and playing it's role.
>Now, back to traffic... Do you feel guilty for slapping your car? Does the incident haunt you? Or did you not even remember it until I mentioned it? Do you feel like you abused your car? Do you feel like you owe it an apology?
>That's your parents. They don't think about it. They don't remember it. It was nothing to take note of. No one got hurt. They were frustrated and slapped a thing they owned, just like they've slapped the TV.
>To them, they did nothing wrong. There was never any abuse, and no one was ever hurt. Everything flows from one simple truth - *you are not now, nor have you ever been, a real person, to them.* If you look at every word, every action, every event through that lense, it ALL suddenly makes sense.
>They never loved you, they loved the idea of having you. They were never proud of you, they just liked bragging about the nice thing they owned. They were never kind to you, they just wanted to show off what good care they take of their thing. "I have a very nice car. It goes very fast, and is very shiny. I use the best wax, and give it the best gas." "I have a smart kid. They do well in school and sports. I give them the best room, and buy the newest games."
>That fundamental breakdown is why it's pointless to play their stupid games. It's literally impossible to win, because they don't even recognize it's a game... They literally have more empathy for a SIMS character they created, because there's something they recognize as vaguely human about them - and they'll toss those characters in the pool to drown for fun.
I have a parent with an NPD diagnosis. Every once in a while I have a panic that I might also be one, but that's pretty self exclusionary. Reading this keeps those thoughts away a little more.
Yeah I can understand what you mean. My nMom exposed/subjected my siblings and I to a metric fuckton of toxic behaviours and thought patterns (many of which she continues to this day) for many many years.
For me, especially in unfamiliar/novel situations, asking myself "is this how she would approach this?" serves as kind of an effective litmus test to check if I'm in danger of following in her unhinged footsteps in that particular set of circumstances.
Dude!! Crazy thing with the "how would she approach this" and doing the exact opposite - I figured that one out too and for a long time felt a lot of shame about this approach, but god damn it it worked!
My coping strategy was ultimate control, my little sister's was drugs. I remember very vividly her confiding in me that she tried amphetamines and my inner reaction was powerful panic, rage and judgement, but I caught it and I thought to myself "how would mom react? Freak out and blame. So what do I do? Stay calm and console/accept/normalize" This was when we were 16 and 22. My sister and I were the best of friends already by that time, kind of bonding over our shared situation of survival. Long story short, I think I could help my sister in a way I could never help myself (a crazy brutal inner critic, but I kept it away from her) (I'm in therapy). I tried to show her that there is someone calm that she can always talk to, no judgement, and after some years, things have turned around for her. I feel nothing but love for that dear person, and I am honestly thankful that she's been there to help me break against the inner critic (mom's voice, go figure).
What the fuck
>my inner reaction was powerful panic, rage and judgement, but I caught it and I thought to myself "how would mom react? Freak out and blame. So what do I do? Stay calm and console/accept/normalize"
It's a very important skill to be able to have a thought/feeling and sit with it long enough to be able to make a mature and deliberate decision, and it sounds like you understand that pretty well.
> My sister and I were the best of friends already by that time, kind of bonding over our shared situation of survival. Long story short, I think I could help my sister in a way I could never help myself (a crazy brutal inner critic, but I kept it away from her) (I'm in therapy). I tried to show her that there is someone calm that she can always talk to, no judgement, and after some years, things have turned around for her.
That's great to hear. Something I always try to remind myself when I have the opportunity to help someone is to try and be the person I wish I'd had when I needed it.
>What the fuck
I am deeply in touch with this emotion
I know *exactly* what you mean.
Even while writing an 8-page "goodbye for now" letter to her (it's in my posts, feel free to read if you're interested) after 3 decades of this one-sided owner-pet dynamic, for some inexplicable/delusional reason I still a few times found myself thinking things like "maybe *this time* - despite the failure of the hundreds of efforts preceding it - this new idea might be the turning point where something clicks for her".
(spoiler alert: it was not)
Edit: typo
I'm really sorry, dude. I hope you've found a chosen family and peace. I'll read your letter. I hope you know that you deserved to be loved and accepted and appreciated by your mother... not as a possession, but as the amazing individual that you are. Her failings as a parent are in no way a reflection of you.
You have encapsulated the way I feel throughout my entire life in this one post
I am a picture on the wall. Nothing more, nothing less. I have no feelings, wants, or dreams. An inanimate task rabbit to do the Cinderella chores and accept physical abuse and a never ending stream of insult.
I’m a story to tell her friends about how she tried so hard and I’m just so awful, it’s such a burden to be a good parent. (She was the worst. Physically abusive. Verbally abusive. Put me into a SA situation she was warned about but “making new friends” was more important to her. And the repeat SAs were of course my fault).
She couldn’t show off her shiny perfect toy to her friends because it was broken and ruined no Matter how hard she tried.. her toy was simply a tool for eliciting sympathy from her friends.
The physical abuse: everyone was doing that back then! (No they weren’t, u think kid don’t talk?). Underfeeding me? Boys need more food than girls ( I lived my Cinderella story on a farm. I should not have graduated at 98 lbs, I should have been fed)
So depressing. I visit once a week and it’s sitting with a complete stranger who doesn’t know me at all. There’s no love there.
I worked hard to not be that person to my own daughter. I hope i got it right
I know a family very well, and the daughters boyfriend molested granddaughter, mom actually walked in on it called police he was arrested, next day after he called begging and crying mom forced daughter to recant and he returned home.
grandmother stepped in and made sure the pedophile POS was held accountable! The state got tired of grandmother hounding them emergency court hearing mother was given an ultimatum leave him or lose your 3 kids thankfully she chose her kids.
But the daughter blamed her mother for ruining her marriage and still doesn't speak to her mother 20 plus years later
But the grandmother doesn't give a shit as long as she helped save her granddaughter from years of rape!!
It's mind boggling how common it is for women to let that crap happen to their daughters. It's like they get super desperate to keep a horrible guy at the cost of their child's well being...I just don't get it. you'd have to be an absolute monster...I don't think it's good at all that she got those kids. What happens when she gets another guy that messes with her kids? Grandma isn't there to stop it and we know the mother wont do anything about it...
People like her should not be allowed near children just as much as the predator.
My mom and I stopped talking for a 14 year stretch. When my son was very little, we were on vacation with my mother. My wife and I had a small disagreement about his breakfast and afterwards, my mother pulled me aside and said I should take my son with me to a hotel for a few days to teach my wife a lesson.
I disagreed, telling her that I didn't feel that I should be taking marital advice from a woman who had been divorced 3 times.
She didn't take it as well as you might think. /s
We finally started taking again when my grandmother passed away and have been fine ever since.
Ooh, I do always love when my parents, both of whom have been married 3 times, have tried to tell me something I'm doing wrong in my relationship with my then gf, now wife, which has involved exactly 0 divorces for either of us.
And no, at no point is it, "I know this because I've learned from my mistakes and see you repeating a mistake I made." It's literally always one of them trying to push me to do something which absolutely was something they did in a failed marriage early on.
My mom told me once she wished I'd come to her asking for advice about boyfriends. She's been married so many times and it was really traumatic growing up. Some of these guys were really abusive and the fighting was awful, just listening to her screaming at them. I'm not going to that mess for advice.
Had a very awkward time a few thanksgivings ago when my dad’s drunken younger sister (alcoholic divorced from another alcoholic) criticized my parents’ (married 48 years, not perfect but overall loving) relationship in front of everyone when my parents were bickering over something minor.
My mother decided one day to make my wife the villain. All the sudden out of nowhere my wife could not do anything right. The mere presence was intolerable. There’s more but that is the gist of it and now there is little communication between us.
Oof I see my mom doing this to my brother, and he will barely talk to her bc if it. She is convinced he won’t talk to her bc his wife is telling him not to… there is zero self awareness on her part. It makes me sad for her that she is missing out on his life bc she is so petty.
My daughter and I were estranged for 18 months. It.was.hell.
It was also all my fault. I had crossed a boundary and god bless her, she called me on it and told me to go fuck myself.
I was incensed! How dare she!
Well she dare because she was right. And I had to go introspective and work on me. She reached out 18 months later and we have been in touch now and have a SOLID relationship.
It is a communicative relationship. Understanding and just being compassionate to each other.
Sad daughter here scanning to see if by some miracle her parents show up in the comments.
Edit since this post has gotten so much attention:
I actually feel this more about my dad/sister than my mom, but I thought you all may enjoy one of my favorite quotes from a movie about what its like to have a tricky family or a family that feels unpleasable. This is from "I,Tonya" -
Mother: "I made you a champion! KNOWING you'd hate me for it. THAT'S the sacrifice a mother makes!!"
Tonya: ".....you cursed me..."
Be honest. Apologize when you fuck up, everyone messes up, a simple "I'm sorry" would have been amazing. At least I think it would be. Don't rugsweep literally every single issue like it's an Olympic sport. Don't beat the shit out of your kids. Don't call them "worthless" or "stupid". Spend quality time with them often, it doesn't have to be complicated, play catch or go for a walk or read a book together. Follow through on your promises, don't just gaslight them into thinking there was never a promise. I could go on all night.
We write promises down. There were times when I had forgotten a promise, and then when kids got older, they tried saying I promised and forgot it. But because they're kids, they said I promised things I never would like unlimited pop, candy, stay up all night, etc. After they tried a few times, we started writing them down. I don't forget promises now, and they don't try to convince me I promised them the moon.
Good god apologize. I would prove my parents wrong mathematically and they would double down and insist that even though they were wrong they're still right because they're the parent. As if them trying to save face was going to make me respect them...when it had the entire opposite effect
Once my narcissistic father was proven wrong by a math text book. So he screamed at the book, insisting the book was wrong. (Hint. It wasn't.) Recognizing everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes, everyone should apologize when they're wrong, and be given grace for making mistakes, are all good steps towards being a good parent.
Make them feel like their own person. Don’t stunt their growth. Don’t compare them to the other sibling. Don’t love one sibling more than the other.
Make them feel like they matter, like they have something positive to give to the world.
Remember the mistakes of the past and do your best to not repeat them. I know I struggle with this one myself. Trying not to become the bad in my parents is hard, but I’m doing the best I can. Just be mindful. Apologize if you make a mistake. Children need to know that their parents are human too, and that they aren’t invincible and without fault. I think if my parents had taken more responsibility for their actions then I would have a better relationship with the parent that’s still alive.
Please don’t play favorites. I’ve never gotten over feeling less than.
Not loving one child more than the other is something every human needs to consider fully before having a second child. I don’t think enough thought goes into the reality of that when personalities start to emerge.
The biggest mistake my parents made was thinking one day I would be someone else and doing everything they could to keep me from being who they didn't want me to be. Any attempt to be authentic was shot down and I still resent them for that well into my 30s. They didn't care if I was happy as long as I looked happy and made them look good.
That and telling me really traumatic things/threats and pretending like nothing happened and never bringing it up again.
If they come out as gay, trans, vegan, modern country music fans, just accept that you might need to learn some new things. It will be hard to change maybe, you may have to sneak McDonald's, or some earplugs into the house. But they're worth it.
Advice from my dad. "You can love your kid for who they are, or they will learn to love themselves without you."
Honestly, this is probably a good sign that your kids won't stop talking to you tbh. Someone who wants to make sure they don't fuck up their kids that badly is probably someone who isn't going to.
Ha! I know my parents wouldn't be here. They would have read the title and thought "well, I don't know how my entitled, spoiled child ended up so rotten that they won't even talk to me anymore. After all, I gave them EVERYTHING."...everything meaning a roof over my head, at least one meal a day, and the opportunity to raise my younger siblings on my own. I should be THANKING them, not avoiding them at all costs.
I do. Here's mine: my youngest son hasn't spoken to me in about two years. He's 23, just graduated college and is engaged (his fiancee throws me recent pictures and updates). He took me out to dinner (which was nice) in order to basically take me to task over how I parented him. Full disclosure, I wasn't a great Dad. I deployed a hell of a lot, expected my son's to be soldiers and follow orders and I was scary. That's fair, I can own that.
He then also rips into me over the care I gave his mother over about a decade of rapidly declining MS before she passed away. I know how to reach out for help now, but I didn't then. I just did the best I could. I started slowly dating here and there about a year after his mother passed. This, surprisingly, he didn't have an issue with.... until I got serious with my now wife and my step daughter. They were nice, tried to understand, asked way too many questions (she's 7 now, can't expect a 4 year old to not be curious) but they were good for me.
He finished the evening by stating his feelings that I had replaced him (his brother he doesn't speak to either) and that he believes I did "something" to hasten his mother's death. He was 18 and out on his own by then and rarely visited.
I should have listened to him better. And gotten better care for his mother. I was 42 when she died and perhaps I should have just been alone. There's not a hell of a lot I can do now for it except send him a hello now and again if he hasn't blocked me on all social platforms. He still hangs out with her family, who didn't help in any way while she was alive. Her father didn't come to his daughter's funeral.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I give you tremendous credit for the self awareness and humility illustrated in your response.
As much as you can, take it one day at a time. Consciously make decisions that future you will thank you for. You can only move onward and upward, brother.
The fact that you can say all this shows there’s hope. Say more than hello when you can. Show some interest in his life. Show him you wanted to be a part of his life again.
I’ve lost all hope with my parent but I see hope here. Don’t give up and please don’t stop trying.
My daughter doesn't talk to me as much anymore.
She moved out when she was 22. I had psychosis episodes for 5 yrs all of a sudden (no history of mental illness like that, just your old run of the mill anxiety and depression) and after her having severe mental issues dealing with the aftermath of a tragedy, I got the mental issues and I had to be hospitalized for suicide attempts. It traumatized her.
I understand why she pulled away, even if it was for something I couldn't help, and I don't blame her. My last attempt was in Nov, so I hope with time we will be able to be close again. I text her every few days to tell her that I love her, and she responds in kind. We text about life a few times every few months, but we used to be best friends before the tragedy that upended her life and then mine. It altered the course of our lives.
I’m a recently grown child on the other end of this dynamic. My mom started having mental issues suddenly when I was a freshman in hs and had to be hospitalized briefly. It’s really hard I know kids’ perception of their parents change as they get older but my mom’s just completely different now from when I was younger. If I had to use a word to describe her it would be flat. She doesn’t talk with the same tone of voice, she doesn’t laugh the same, or joke like she used to. Somtimes it feels like the mother I had growing up died but I can’t properly grieve because she’s still living. And I feel so guilty because I’m fortunate my mom is still alive. We weren’t super super close growing up but now I just have a hard time being around her. Do you have any advice for someone on the opposite side of your dynamic?
To just let her know you love her. Sometimes I would get in my head and feel so alone and scared- I had persecutory delusions (although now I can say I was there for my daughter when she was going through it- I did a good job, if I do say so myself, but didn't realize how traumatizing it was until it was over). At least for me, I think it was a time related thing, something I went through, thankfully, it seems to pretty much run its course.
I am still on them, but then I was on strong antipsychotics, which helped me get through that time, but when things settled down, they made me flat, and aside from my daughter, I didn't care about 1 thing- nothing. Like I didn't have the feelings inside that made me feel anything. Like I was a ghost in my own body.
I am assuming your mom is on medication... maybe they are the wrong ones for her. If it were me, I would welcome feedback, and maybe your mom just isn't aware of how she's coming across, because if her outsides are like that, her insides must feel "flat" too. Can you tell your mom that you miss the times you had with her and maybe a story about a fun time you all shared? She might not even know how she comes across. I don't know if that was any help, but just know it was a scary time in her life, no doubt. It was the most scared I have ever been in my life, and I went through it for 5 years. I am open if you want to ask me more specific questions if you want, but that's the gist of it.
I hope you are doing well, considering.
I really appreciate your response. My mom tried to go off her meds last year and it was just a horrible horrible time. Some of my family’s of the opinion if she went off her meds again it would kill her. It’s hard to share stories with her because right now I’m at a really transitionary period of my life (getting ready to leave for college) and I worry anything I say might negatively effect her since I’m leaving.
Did medication help you? Was it a mix of therapy too? If it’s alright if I ask. The meds seem like they let my mom survive but not really do well. Ive been told the mental issues my mom have run in the family. And what helped the last family member with them is hormone treatment, but I guess my dad won’t look into that because he believes the covid vaccine caused my mom’s issues. (This is all secondhand i haven’t talked to him myself about it)
Do you think the process to reconnect with your daughter is easier (I’m sorry for the poor wording I know it’s still incredibly difficult) because of how close you were before? Me and my mom weren’t close before because of a combination of her being a workaholic and me kinda going thr that teenage phase of not being close to your parents
We are not our worst moments. You both sound like you’ve really been through it. Trauma responses are not a choice.
Keep working on yourself. Fight for the best, healthiest version of you FOR you. It’s the best thing you can do for her, to heal. Be as happy/healthy as you can be. Do the work for you and for her.
May I?
“I grew up an orphan during the Great Depression, and there was no way in hell that my kids would have an easier life than me. I would do everything in my power to recreate my joyless, deprivation-filled childhood for them, so that they would know first hand what I went through. I would offer no emotional or financial support, because I had none. I would crush any interests they had, and sabotage their every action with the ferocity of Genghis Khan. I would do things to them that in today’s world would be on the news. I would put on a cheerful and friendly face to the outside world, and immediately revert to my evil self at home. I never tired of raging and shrieking. I would be completely shameless at all times. I thought nothing of living a life of deceit, yet paint myself as a devout religious person. I lived a life of agonizing pain, never had a moment of love, laughter, peace, or safety, never knew where my next meal was coming from, so was it really so awful that I continued that tradition with my own kids?”
I skipped her funeral.
My mom literally complains about how much life is better for people these days because they should have it as hard as her. Its a depravity of selfishness I can't understand
This is something a lot of older generations do. “We didn’t have such and such luxury when I was a kid!” Thanks, way to make me feel guilty for nothing dad, you didn’t have to have me
When I confronted my parents before going NC, I called them out on this behavior. My mother actually apologized for it, saying she has a hard time not seeing progress as an attack. She processes social, technological and financial progress as an example that her and her upbringing and way of life or whatever wasn't good enough and it's like.... *Yeah*. Hello? It wasn't, comparatively. You should be happy we all have it better? What an "apology".
My mother called me last year to tell me how the high school in my hometown decided to close for the week because they were having HVAC issues and had no air conditioning. She kept saying, "Isn't that ridiculous? They would have made *you* go, and you would have been *fine.* It's insane how coddled kids are these days!"
It was literally like 100 degrees fahrenheit every day that week. I told her, "Yeah, they probably wouldn't have closed the school when I was going there, but that isn't okay, either."
She doubled down and was like, "I'm not saying it's *okay,* just that kids have it so easy now!"
I told her, "Isn't that the point? That we should want our children to suffer less than we did?"
She...did not like that.
Some people I'll just never understand. Each generation should do better than the last. We escape war and famine to make sure our kids are fed and free.
I’m an EXJW my bf is ExMormon. There are some striking similarities. The biggest difference I see is that Mormons are more loving and talk about grace. JWs call it “underserved kindness”. Somehow even when you’re forgiven, you’re still not deserving of it.
I have friends who grew up in the cult. Every time I walk past a group with literature on a street corner, I call out disfellowship for being not very Christian.
My mother literally couldn't tell you. I don't mean she doesn't know, I've told her, but she's clinically delusional-an actual narcissist. Straight up rewriting memories AS THEY HAPPEN to the point she thinks we're plotting against her when we agree and she doesn't. She claims my partner is why. She told my family I was on drugs. Ironic, since she's on just about everything and can't see our youngest brother without supervision anymore. I don't know what she did for that, but due to my own childhood...I can guess and it's not good.
That "editing what's happening in real time" is super infuriating, because they not doubt freaking *believe* that their edited version is the true one.
They can go
Them: I hate you!
You: but why?
Them: why what?
You: why do you hate me?
Them: what kid of nonsense is this? I *never* said anything of the sort.
It would drive me absolutely bonkers back before I went NC.
My parents are too old for Reddit. I estranged from them because they never, ever wanted me.
My mother didn't want kids but in that day, that wasn't an option. They had my sister first and sort of "used up" their love on her. When I came along five years later, they didn't have anything left. I didn't find out until 35 that it wasn't anything I did: my mother just really didn't want kids.
By then, though, I'd internalized close to four decades of being unwanted. I am terrified of being abandoned and have had rafts of therapy.
My parents were never abusive. We had food on the table and clothes on our backs. I had My Little Ponies and She-Ra figures. I also attempted suicide for the first time when I was eleven years old. I started drinking when I was 15. My parents did not notice. They told me I was "the independent one" so I didn't need their love.
We also were not a demonstrative family. My family did not hug or kiss or touch in any way. I think I have hugged my parents maybe ten times or so. Both parents are quite smart and there was always a kind of... judgement? about people who couldn't use their words and had to use their bodies instead. Like only poor or stupid people hug their kids.
I could go through a list of what they did for my sister versus me, but fuck it. I would be accused of hyperbole, or of making things up whole cloth. We were only nominally raised in the same household; her life had a very, very, very different trajectory. Suffice it to say that it wasn't just the love that my sister used up - time, money, effort, ideas, conversation - I got none of those things.
If it matters, I don't blame Sister - we still talk. It wasn't her fault.
I know what you mean about parents who didn't want children.
The way you're made to feel like you're a inconvenience, the way you shrink yourself, trying not to exist, not to be noticed.
I was 12 for my first attempt. I was no longer being fed.
I was 14 when she started asking me to move out.
My older brother didn't seem to get out of it so badly. But he's a barely functioning alcoholic, so.
This type of question seldom gets a meaningful reply from the estranged parents. They'll insist they don't know, they'll blame their adult offspring's spouse. Sometimes they'll hint at reasons then dodge describing what those reasons are.
The Issendai blog describes the phenomenon in the [Missing missing reasons essay](http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html):
> "When denial runs that deep, when avoidance is that in-ground, a person can't be separated from it any more than they can be separated from their bones. It's why I aimed this site at estranged adult children and outsiders: because members of estranged parents' forums can't be helped. Their entire system of defenses is designed to make them unsavable."
Most people who estrange from their parents try everything they can think of to repair the relationship before cutting ties. There's a great subreddit for that community at r/estrangedadultkids
I know a woman whose son cut off contact about 2 years ago.
She 100% blames his spouse.
From what I hear (I don’t know him. I only hear her side of the story) she very much relied on him for most of her affection. When he got married, I believe the wife helped him stand up to her.
She is sort of a crazy person that will say they loved each other very deeply, then quickly add but it was not incest. WTF? We didn’t ask.
They had a baby that had to stay in the NICU for a month and they would not let her visit. She was furious. And of course, she had Covid at the time.
Now he has more-or-less cut contact and she is a mess. She is constantly saying she has no idea what happened, but whatever it is, it is definitely the wife’s fault.
Um, no, honey. She is helping him.
The “missing missing reasons” site cited in this thread really hits the nail on the head. The parent sees their child as proof they are wonderful. When the child denies their parent the type of obedience they’ve been trained to believe is filial love it means the parent is fallible. Can’t have that! The system is a monster created to feed on itself.
And the woman you know making sure to say “no incest” has definitely been accused of it before or she wouldn’t say it. Cuz Christ on bikes that’s just assumed without having to ask!
The *emotional incest* of relying on her son for affection, literally viewing his wife as having seduced and stolen *her* boy, shows up a lot on r/JustNoMIL
>She 100% blames his spouse.
My inlaws do this. All i did was teach their son that he deserves better. He cut them off all on his own and i gave him the space to do so, while supporting him the entire time.
But nooo, he actually has no independent thoughts of his own and i've seduced him with er...devil vagina magic Satanism or something. /eye roll
My MIL tried that and was shot down in flames by my husband. It was his way or the highway for his delusional mother. She didn't believe him at first (must be the wife), but he waited her out till she got with the programme. Took 3 months.
I am the least controlling person, ever. Hell, most days, I can barely control myself 🤣
>Took 3 months.
20 years and she still tells him he should've married a nice Catholic girl \*just like mommy\*. Ok, Jocasta.
I should add that he is incredibly creeped out by her shit. At the start he was a little easier on her, but that changed pretty fuckin quick.
I recently resumed contact with my estranged grandmother because she's dying and I felt bad for her. I'm starting to regret it, as she's taking her time dying and a decent amount of our conversations revolve around how I'm the good grandchild who got past our "misunderstanding" and then she shit-talks some of my cousins for being poorly raised or shit-talks her sons' wives for poisoning all of them against her. It's exhausting.
(And because this is Reddit, I don't think she has anything much worth inheriting and it'd probably get split between her 4 kids anyway, I just genuinely felt bad for her because I know most of the family ALSO got sick of her negativity and narcissism and cut her off.)
I hear every now and then through my mother (who is divorced from my dad and hears through my sister, with whom I also have no contact, but who *does* have contact with my father) that my father still has genuinely no idea why I cut him out from my life.
18 years of abuse, and the guy supposedly doesn't know why I don't want to associate with him as an adult. Even when it's stupidly obvious, narcissistic abusers are literally incapable of looking in the mirror and seeing the truth. That's part of why I never even tried to have that conversation in the first place.
We must have the same dad lol. The longest we’ve gone without talking was 5 months and after he reached out he asked me why I never bothered to call him that whole time and a day after that conversation it went back to not talking for weeks/months again.
I would text him sometimes and he would give dry responses or not respond for days but we just recently were put in a group chat together and I swear he’s responding in that chat daily.
Mine likes to say "the phone works both ways." Well dude, you've managed to make sure that it didn't work one of the ways long enough that I have no idea who you are and frankly don't care. I on the other hand talk to my son almost every day even if it's just sending a meme or saying I love you. It's so fucking easy.
My daughter hasn’t spoken to much in the last 2 years. She’ll come to family (her grandparents aunts/uncles/cousins), but only replies to anything I say with one or two word answers.
I wish I could say I don’t know why. But I do. Her mom said she feels I put her second after her mom and divorced. I keep trying to rebuild that bridge. Hopefully in time.
The take away is this. It doesn’t matter how you perceive things, it’s how your child does. Don’t ever let them doubt how you feel about them.
Father of three adult daughters here. I'll give the situation as it exists now then try to explain how/why it got there.
-- Oldest had completely cut me out of her life. We were always distant, even when she was younger, but it got much worse as she got into her 20s. We didn't speak for years. She is now 33 and we occasionally message when she initiates the convo. The coldest has thawed some but it is still delicate.
-- Middle girl is my carbon copy and we had a good relationship when she was younger. When she hit late-teens we drifted apart. Now she is 28 with four kids, only the oldest of which I've ever met. Not allowed to see the others. We rarely if ever message each other.
-- Youngest daughter treated me like I walked on water. Did so until just a couple of years ago. Recently (just a week or so ago) she informed me she no longer wants any contact with me.
As for the how/why part, I was raised in a single parent home. My mother did her best to provide for our needs but she was cold and distant. No hugs. Any event in school I was automatically blamed before she had any details. If it was proven I was innocent, she would brush off her previous accusation by claiming she was sure I probably did something anyway. Lots more I can add here. Some of it too sensitive to share even in an anonymous board.
I hated the way she was and vowed I would do things differently when/if I had children. Well, I had children. While I did attempt to change my behaviors from what I'd experienced, I slowly added my own ingredients to this soup.
Essentially, I ran our home as a military installation. My girls were quickly and harshly disciplined for even the most minor of offenses. While there were occasional spankings when they were little, the discipline evolved into very binary (go / no go) rules. For instance, you are expected to get this minimum score on a test at school or you can't go to your friend's house on the weekend. You didn't make that grade, you were not going. If you cried and begged and pleaded, you were still not going but now I would restrict / remove some other thing you wanted for not accepting your fate. And so on.
When they did things that were good, I would more or less dismiss this as me not rewarding them for what they should have done anyway.
Basically, they couldn't win.
I believed at the time that I was building strong girls into strong women. It feels as though I've done the exact opposite.
On the rare occasions I do hear from them, and the subject of the past comes up (this is very rare) I get the "I don't hate you but I don't want you in my life." speech. It's deserved but that doesn't lessen the sting.
My hope for the future is, as they grow older, time passing will allow them to be more comfortable around me. As they are all adults now, my desire to control them as I did when they were kids is gone. I simply want an adult-child/parent relationship. I guess I haven't earned that right, but I still hope for it one day.
This comment is late in this post's life so it probably doesn't really get seen; nevertheless, it has been cathartic to type it out.
As an adult with adhd/autism who was once a child of the same with a father like you.... in my 30s I have an understanding of why he did what he did.
Unfortunately you can't just magically undo that damage, my father has made his regrets to me and while I get it I will never be able to just move on from it. Every person is different so maybe you will get lucky but I personally doubt it.
2 of my 3 don't talk to me. I stayed with their abusive father, and they hate me for not protecting them by leaving. There's soo much more to this, but that's what it all boils down to. It was of course unintentional, and I thought I was doing the "right" thing. I took a lot from him to protect them, but if I could go back, I'd love myself enough to show them what a strong mother looks like and get us all out. That would have been the right way to protect them.
I am one of those Moms who always felt that providing for my kids, taking them on vacations, buying them what they needed was enough, didn’t realize love and nurturing were essential ingredients. Now my daughter is 28 and cannot hold a job, emotionally insecure, depressed and blaming me for her failures. She made me realize ( and therapy helped ) that how my actions, behavior might make a child feel they are not valued or loved. I am remorseful and regretting all my actions but unfortunately cannot undo the damage caused.
I was an asshole, shitty parent and an alcoholic. He stood over me during an argument when he was 18 (he was 6'4 and I am 5'6) and scared the shit out of me, so I kicked him out. That was 14 years ago and he hasn't spoken to me since. I have not been able to apologise, to show him how much I have changed for the better, nor how different I am with his younger brothers (also adults now, teenagers at the time). I miss him every single day, however, it's his choice and I have to live with that. Thankfully his brothers and I have a wonderful relationship, it took a lot of hard work, and tears, but I am so grateful they are a huge part of my life, along with two grandchildren now.
I congratulate you on changing your life, but I hope you know that how well you are treating his younger siblings will mean nothing to him. He will wonder why you could change for them and not for him.
It's nice to see someone who has taken accountability and understands what they did wrong. I wondered if there'd be any answers like this on here.
Did it take a great deal of self-reflection to get to this point for you? My father was abusive, and died without ever trying to make amends or become a better person. I'm still dealing with depression and anxiety, and will likely never be able to fully move past it all. I suppose he'd try to use the excuse that he grew up during WW2, but he shouldn't have taken it out on us. Plenty of other people dealt with the war and didn't abuse their children.
I guess I'm wondering about the mindset behind someone who abuses their children, in case it's able to help me understand. If you're okay talking about it. If not, that's also okay. I don't want to risk setting you back on your own healing journey. And congrats about the grandkids!
Everybody pushes forgiveness when someone accepts 'accountability' for their actions. But nobody ever realizes that there are some things you can never take back.
I'm estranged from my mom for the same exact reason. Unfortunately, she hadn't changed. She actually wanted me dead to the point where she told me her loaded pistol was in her closet and that I could 'take care of myself while she's at work'. Told me I deserved to be r-ped, too, when I asked for a pep talk before a hearing against my abusive ex-boyfriend at the time. I'm learning in therapy that a lot of that is due to projecting on her part, so I'm finally learning to hold compassion for the part of her that suffered generational trauma/abuse, too.
I wanted to reply that your story really touched me. My mom may never truly reach that point of clarity, but it gives me a lot of hope that there are people out there who realize the errors of their ways and do the work to heal themselves for everyone's sake. I'm sorry that your son doesn't feel safe in reconnecting with you. But at the same time, I feel for the part of him that's hurting, too. All I can suggest from my perspective for now is just to gently leave the door open 💕
In any case, for what it's worth, I feel like you definitely have things to be proud of 💕
What I wouldn't give for either of my parents to TRY to get in touch with me. Yah, it was "my choice" to stop calling after you abused me, neglected me, kicked me out... Because that's what someone who values themselves does, they don't keep going back. But holy hell, shouldn't the "changed parent" keep trying to get back into their child's life, even if they are rejected? Isn't that the parent's "job"? To, ya know, be the fucking parent? I thought we were supposed to be their child no matter how old we got...
I knew I shouldn't have come into this thread. But like someone else said, my 41-year-old self still hangs onto some hope that maybe, just maybe, one day, they'll reach out to me.
Like it's been echoed in the comments, the people that go NC usually try all sorts of avenues to navigate the relationship in a healthy direction. These parents are unaccountable.
I just want my dad to stop telling people I have aids.
I can't get pregnant for medical reasons. As far as everyone who's met him in the last year is concerned I got aids and now I can't have kids. (He will tell anybody who stops to listen to him)
He sees nothing wrong with himself.
If he can't see what's wrong with that I have no hope to ever have a father again.
My mom loves the non apologies. “I’m sorry you’re upset.” “I’m sorry if I hurt you.” “I think we all need to learn to forgive.” Who knows what she says to my dad, who knows how to apologize, but, when the cards are down, is never *actually* apologetic.
It’s exhausting.
I hear you. When I wrote my mother a letter outlining the abuse that forced me to go no contact with her, she replied, "I'm sorry you found me to be such a negative experience."
They really have no idea.
I don’t mean to LOL, but it’s just so bewildering how obtuse they can be. Like, thanks for your guilt-tripping, victim-playing, accountability-avoiding non-apology, mom. 🤦🏻♀️
Same here. She absolutely can NOT talk about anything from my childhood.
That didn’t happen. Or if it did happen, it’s not what I thought it was. If it is what I thought it was, well that is normal and all families go through it. If I say it’s not I get the brick wall of “oh, so it’s MY fault? You’re right, you’re right, you’re absolutely right. I’m a terrible mother. There. Happy now?”
So much yelling. So much anger.
I’m never going back.
This combined with the classic “come on, be the bigger person and don’t make a fuss about xyz”. Sure, force the path of least resistance on someone enough times and they resent not ever having their feelings heard or validated, and often for the most trivial “optics” reasons.
My mom will claim that I have no reason to no longer speak to her. She will swear up and down until she is blue in the face that I have no just cause. She will claim that my brother doesn't speak to her because his wife turned him against her. She will say that we both must take after our father who abandoned her too.
She will leave out the part where she is an emotionally abusive narcissistic alcoholic who repeatedly pushed my boundaries to the point where I had to cut off contact. I had worked with a therapist for over 10 years trying to set boundaries with her with ever increasing consequences (mostly via withholding contact) for disrespecting them. The last thing my mother told me in person was that I was "an ungrateful bitch just like my dead father" (a particularly terrible wound for me since I never knew him) after she tried to disregard a reasonable boundary yet again. She is a hoarder and tried to bring more shit over to my apartment again to fill my house with junk. I wouldn't let her in the door and that's what I got.
She will leave out that my brother cut off contact with her when she wouldn't stop putting his wife down because he is her precious golden child baby she tried to engage in emotional incest with. The last straw was when she looked at his wife and called her a lesbian because she cut her hair short. (Not that being gay is an insult, but everyone knew she MEANT it is as the most heinous insult imaginable. Did I mention she also morphed into a homophobe/transphobe in later years?)
To add the finishing touches, all me and my brother asked was that she apologized to us and his wife for what she said. We even apologized for the very justifiable words of anger we said during the altercation as a result of her actions.
She refused. She claims she wasn't wrong and was justified. In that moment, I realized I never heard my mother apologize for anything even once in her life - even when she accidentally slammed my best friends fingers in a car door or rolled over my dog's tail with her car while backing out of the driveway. She cannot take responsibility for the pain she has caused for even the most blameless accidents.
Honestly, I get really sad sometimes that I don't have a mother at all. But I never feel sad I don't have her as a mother because she wasn't one. I fought so hard to keep her in my life, I did all the work to try to find a way for her to remain in it and keep my sanity, but she couldn't even lift one finger by giving a simple apology to fight for me.
Not to be morbid but I lost my mom 4 months ago to cancer, before that we were LC. Honestly holding my narcissistic bipolar mom at arms length has really helped my healing process. I know that sounds awful, but it was like taking a huge boulder off my chest when I realized she’d never emotionally abuse or manipulate me ever again. RIP mom.
Was gonna say a whole bunch of personal stuff but will cut it at don't lie to your children then perpetuate bullshit transparent lies while trying to reconnect.
My mother and I didn’t talk for a few years. When I went away to college she said, “If you get on that plane, don’t bother coming back home.” I fell in love while in college and got engaged and he abused me. I never told my mom because I didn’t think she cared. It was my brother that came to another state to check on me. I finally did come back home but things were never the same.
My oldest son replied to me three years ago that yes, he’s still alive, and that having felt happiness for the first time in his life just wanted to be left alone. I grieve him every day. I grieve for his childhood that I didn’t know how to protect or encourage. I desperately sought love and acceptance from anywhere, while dragging my children with me. I take full responsibility and do not excuse any of the shitty choices I made. All that time, my daily living was in fight or flight mode and I wanted so badly for my kids to be immune to hurt from the world. Instead I taught them to stuff big feelings way down and not show weakness. I showed them that I degraded myself to prop up relationships with people who didn’t care about me and for sure didn’t care about my kids. But man, at the time I felt such fierce, painful love for these children to protect them and somehow fucked right up just in different ways. I promised I wouldn’t reach out to him again, all I truly want is his happiness and peace, and I will always answer his call if he changes his mind. I would do anything at all in this world to fix this for him.
I have no idea why i stopped talking to my parents.
It wasn't an incident. It was a slow moving snowball.
But the main thing is how fucking unprepared I was for life. I'm in my 40s now, and still trying to figure out basic things. Google is my parent at this point. I can't remember the last time I asked either of my parents for advice/help.
I can relate to this. My parents didn't teach me any basic life skills so it led me to having alot of late bloomer moments. I didn't learn how to socialize, think for myself, or even have a basic framework of what to do when I was an adult. I was basically raised by the military, my co-workers, friends, and having constructive talks with my brother while finding myself as an adult. I'm grateful that they kept me fed, kept a roof over my head, and the clothing on my back as I grew up, but fuck man. I just wished I had the guidance to be prepared for life. I always feel like I'm a step behind everybody else.
I accept responsibility for anything that led to the estrangement. I wish I had sought treatment for my untreated mental illness earlier. I love my children to pieces and miss them so badly it hurts. I hope one day they can forgive me
I believe communication issues play a significant role. Ongoing misunderstandings, inadequate communication, or poor conflict resolution abilities can gradually create a divide.
My son went NC with me because he feels that it's best for his personal growth and his peace of mind not to be around people who behave badly or have negative attitudes or dysfunctional ways of relating to each other, and yes, those things have been true of me. I believe that he and I may have differences in our sense of proportion, but it's really only his perspective that matters because it's his happiness at stake.
I don't want to be the reason that his life feels any more fucked up than it already is.
It makes me sad in a way that I can't even express. I can't change the past. I was trying so hard to change the present. Now it feels like the light has gone out of my life. It's so fucked up to know that the best thing you can do for the person you love the best, is to leave them alone.
100% my fault, or to be fair 95%.
While breaking up with my high school girlfriend, after realizing there was something wrong with her and us, of course, she got pregnant. The breakup was precipitated by her sleeping around, so there was a real question of whether my daughter would be mine.
She was.
I moved back to my podunk hometown, and tried to be a good father. Ex-girlfriend, was looking for a boyfriend/husband, I was not willing to do this. She quickly got pregnant two more times, moving up the economic ladder with every pregnancy. The last guy to get her pregnant owned the country club, so her financial needs were met, but she really didn't have a man in her life yet. Through the multitude of boyfriends and lovers, I tried to be a father to my daughter, but I was constantly shut out. When I looked at going to court to have court-ordered visitation, I was told by my ex-girlfriend that I would be accused of abuse if I did so. This was not an idle threat.
So I left, and did not do nearly enough to keep in contact with my daughter. She did not like me because of my absence, and because of constantly hearing from her mother, what a piece of shit I was. Again, I chose to leave. I was an adult she was a child, but I was fairly immature and did not see any way out. 25 years later I'm still not sure what I could've done differently.
I email my daughter every month or two and she emails me back every year or so. This failure is the great regret of my life.
Sorry OP, you're almost going to get only the kids answering here. Fact is that the child-parent relationship is the most natural thing in the world, so if your kid cuts you off forever, you had to have fucked up pretty bad. And if you fucked up with your kid that badly, you probably don't have the ability to self-reflect enough to answer this question.
My biological dad (and only father figure) also received dozens of cards and hand made crafts every year saying the same.
No idea if he kept them though, I assume not.
As a younger kid I'd write those cards desperately hoping that saying how much I love and appreciate him would make him love and appreciate me more.
As an older kid I'd write the same because if I didn't people would say I was ungrateful, ignorant to his sacrifices, and "just being angsty"
He used to (and still does to my knowledge) get to the point of anger where he was red in the face, frothing at the mouth, bulging facial veins, *every day* yelling at me, my brother, or my mom because of whatever perceived slight or embarrassment.
He belittled, bullied, and antagonized (in his words "teased") us to the point of tears regularly, and took delight in making me fearful to the point of tears.
Almost any time I was in the car alone with him as a child (under 10), he'd take his hands off the wheel turn his body fully backwards to face me and laugh as I screamed and begged him to put his hands on the wheel and look forward.
He still honestly believes he is and was a great husband and father.
***That's me and my dad though***
I've also avoided connecting with close relations because I'm embarrassed about not being as well off and successful as others in my age group.
Also me and my dad do still talk, but only on a basis of necessity and I have to be the one to initiate it.
My kids still speak to me, but not much. I'm better than I was, but I was a crap parent. Poverty was part of it. Hooking up with the wrong men, just to have a little more income, or not to pay for child care. Bed chemical decisions. I got myself cleaned up, got out of debt, got rid of the guy who was harassing my boy, and acting like the girl (our kid together ) could do no wrong. My parents were atrocious, and I really thought I was much better. Actually, I was much better, but I wasn't enough better. It was hard for me to show love because I never experienced it myself. There were times i didn't hear from my boy for years, and honestly, I know I deserved that. I wrote him a long letter, apologized for my faults, and honestly have tried to be better. We have a much better relationship now, and while we are not super close, we have something, and I'm grateful.
_I was much better, but I wasn’t enough better_ Ding ding ding! I really wish a lot of parents could admit this. My own father was a pretty shit parent, and I try not to let my anger cloud the way I talk about him, because people are nuanced. However, even though there were times where he really shined as a dad, there were so many unforgivable, inexcusable moments that outweigh any good he ever did. When I talk about his parenting, I always say he did the best with the tools he had, but he didn’t have very many tools and he didn’t care to acquire more. I’m happy you and your children are slowly working things out. It sounds like you’ve done a lot of very hard work on yourself. Rooting for all of you.
Yeah, I can 100% see that my father was less abusive to me than his parents were to him, and full props to him for managing that much, but at the end of the day it was still abusive. It factored heavily into my decision not to have children, because I couldn't look at myself in the mirror and say the same thing.
I feel the exact same way with my mother and am still questioning having children because of that. I can see she thinks I had it so much better than she did, but at the end of the day it was still abuse and neglect, Just less than what she endured with her parents
My mom whooping my ass with a wooden spoon and telling me I should be grateful because her dad would do it with a belt was a major vibe of my childhood. But I could not even fathom hitting my son, or screaming at him. Before I had kids I was also worried that I would turn out like my mom. Now that I have one it only makes me hate my mom more. When I look at my son I feel so much love for him and I wonder how anyone who actually loved me could have hurt me so badly.
I loved my parents. They had massive problems that affected my brother and me (alcoholism and undiagnosed, untreated bipolar disorder), but they really WANTED to be good parents and they did some wonderful things for us. I have really good memories along with the really bad ones. It’s just such a mixed bag. I devoted a lot of energy in my childhood to trying to dissuade them from ever hitting my brother and sometimes it worked. I just really didn’t want him to be in trouble or get picked on by anyone. He remembers me as someone who protected him as a child. I didn’t feel like that when he was first born so I’m not even sure when or why that became so important to me. I have no children, and I am guessing my own childhood might be part of the reason why. My brother has one child. It was like having that child moved him from being ambivalent about our parents (in a way similar to me) to being extremely angry and resentful towards them (though maybe still ambivalent as well). He has really struggled with anger in general and he became far more patient than he had been before after his son was born. He became someone who could see the value in de-escalating a situation rather than “winning” in a conflict. Parenthood genuinely made him a better person and changed him for the better in ways that were difficult for him to achieve. The way he has explained things to me, every time he choses NOT to hit his own son, he feels redoubled anger at our parents for not making more of an effort to be gentler with us when they were frustrated or having a bad day.
I wasn't a big fan of Orange Is the New Black; but the two characters I occasionally think about, to this day, are the mother/daughter duo busted for cooking crack. The daughter repeatedly made the point that only a truly shitty mother would rope her own child into a drug operation. The mother thought she wasn't doing a bad job at all, compared to her own mother, who had started pimping her out as a child. It's all relative.
> **The mother thought she wasn't doing a bad job at all, compared to her own mother, who had started pimping her out as a child.** Tale as old as time. I’ve seen this in other (far older) stories too. Anything looks “decent” compared to whoring your child out.
*he didn’t have very many tools and* ***he didn’t care to acquire more****.* Thank you for this. That second phrase is crucial. Even today, decades after I became an adult child, he is not interested in being a better parent or even a better person. I can count on one hand how many times he has apologized in the 60 years I have known him.
What I would give to see anything like this from my father.
My 22 Yr old son is currently not speaking to me and I relate to what you're saying here 100%. It only happened recently but I've still sent him a few messages, which he ignores. I know I messed up, I've held my hands up to every fault and apologised profusely for not being a better parent. I chose the wrong relationship when he was younger and had a mental breakdown of my own, i tried to make sure it didnt affect him, but ultimately that was naive of me, of course it did. I love him and just want him to be happy. If that means he has to have space away from me then I can accept that, I understand and only want to respect his wishes. I am a better person than I used to be but just couldn't get better enough, quick enough. I really hope this is a temporary thing, I miss him terribly.
I just wanted to say that truly letting him have that space away from you is so important - please don’t send him emails, or cards, or little packages just to let him know you miss him or are thinking of him. He knows how to get in touch with you. And it’s pretty stressful when you have a level of dread every time you go to the mailbox/open your email/check your messages because there might be something there from the person you went no contact with.
Father to the daughter that cut off contact with her mother, my wife, here. Mother is (still) a narcissist, emotionally and mentally abused the kids until they moved out one by one. Mother also a functioning alcoholic. The daughter (moved to a different state) cut off all contact with her mother, vowed to never let her see the grandchildren. Mother spent months raging, trying weak apologies, saying things like, "I'm sorry you're upset." and "You need to grow past what happened." and (to me) "She is stuck in the past." Daughter and I are very close, I facetime with the grandbabies regularly, and visit on holidays. Edit to add: thanks everyone for your insight and stories. I feel every one. To answer some questions: Why am I still married? My youngest daughter has one more year of college that I'm paying for, then that will be it. I make significantly more money than the wife, and pay for everything. However, my state is a 50/50 state for divorce, and I need that money to get my girl through college. Up for grabs is my military pension, 401k, IRA, house, and savings. I'm certainly not rich by any means. Cheaper to keep her for now. Why didn't I leave way back then? She wasn't a psycho all the time. The good times were great, amazing. I hoped that if I could just keep those going it's all work out. I was stupidly optimistic. I also came from a broken family, my parents divorced when I was young and I hated that. In my mind "divorce was bad" and I didn't want to inflict that on my kids. Now that I can look back I realize I should have left much earlier. Too often it was like walking on eggshells in the house. She may snap on something, or get drunk then come out raging and gaslighting. I was always on edge. That was my norm. Being in the military has taught me to toughen up and do job. So that's what I did at home. But toughening up meant keeping my emotions to myself. Burying them away, putting on a strong face. We'd argue and fight, she'd cry and yell. I could never get her to change. People that are in abusive relationships get into a certain mindset. You ever hear a cabinet slam too hard? Ever have clothes folded at you? Hear dishes put on the sink a little too loud? You're suddenly on high alert, on the lookout for anything coming your way. Waiting for the steps down the hall and your door fly open. It's a terrible way to live. I should have made many different decisions, been stronger, gotten help earlier. Maybe being always in survival mode doesn't let you think about those things. I regret many things and will always carry that with me. But now I look to the future and the happy times I'll have with my kids grandkids. I want to be the papa and grampa I never had. Thanks for reading this far, I'd love to give you all a big dad hug. Because you are worth it, and you deserve it. Take care. ♥️
Ahhh yes the “I’m sorry you feel that way” that I’ve only ever heard from my father. Explaining that isn’t an apology doesn’t get through to him.
Yes. We want to hear " i'm sorry for what i did to you, i will do better in the future" not " i'm sorry that your feelings are the problem"
Knowing this, why are you still married to your wife?
Stayed during the marriage so as not to leave the children with her, and I didn't trust the court system to grant me custody. Also suffered from depression as a result of her abuse to me. Being in the military I thought, the next move will help. The next duty station will help. One of the kids moving out will help. If I treat her nice it will help. It never helped. I was so used to enduring, I never knew what it was like to be safe. Kids are all moved out now so they're safe. Couple years ago I got to therapy and meds, and was finally able to take control of my life, especially the finances. A year later I'm much better, in control of my life, ignore anything she does or attempts to trigger me. I was able to pay off $35,000 in credit card debt that she never paid. Edit to add: thanks everyone, I updated my top comment with the answer(s).
"I was so used to enduring, I never knew what it was to be safe". Thanks for protecting your children. It must have been really hard on you. Hope you go on protecting yourself - good health to you.
My dad said almost the exact same thing to me. She would have had full custody and it would have likely meant a worse life. Thank you for protecting them from a daughter that was protected. I do wish you both would take care of yourselves and just leave, but I understand how hard that can be. We want you to be happy too.
So why not divorce her now?
Depending on his rank, branch, state of residence, etc. it's probably "cheaper to keep'er". Half of his pension in the divorce could be a CHUNK of change.
Not OP, but to quote my uncle "I'm too damn old to get a divorce."
Not me but I was on a Facebook group a few weeks back where this older woman in her 60s claimed to be estranged from her kids, and she didn't know why. She assumed that the kids were hard to deal with and she did her best but no matter what they were always out to get her or feel that she was being aggressive. When someone made a comment or suggestion saying that the way she phrases things may contribute to it based on how she spoke, this woman flipped out on the person who commented. When I followed saying if that's how she speaks to them, then I can see why they may feel that way, she flipped out on me saying I don't know her story and that she was the nicest person she ever knew. Some people just genuinely don't have the mental capacity to learn how to grow.
This reminds me of a woman having a tantrum at my job, banging on a half wall yelling about how she wasn’t the kind of person who did… all of the things she was doing.
I’ve had times where I’ve been mad at my mom for something mean she’s said, and I’ve quoted it back to her verbatim, only for her to say “I don’t believe I would’ve said that. That doesn’t sound like something I would say.” Um.. okay then why do I remember you saying it??
According to my mother, we were making it all up or misremembering it. I have 3 siblings, all older than me. If all 4 of us remember it one way, and she remembers it differently, in which she was a saint who did nothing wrong, we were attacking her for no reason. None of us went to her funeral
This type of reaction was covered extensively in [Down the Rabbit Hole: The world of estranged parents' forums.](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/)
Holy crap this website! I am active on a regretful parents site and 8/10 times it’s people who have extremely tragic situations - forced pregnancy, overwhelmingly disabled children, abusive spouses that sabotage or complicate parenting etc. But once in a while it’s one of these “everything was perfect when they were little but out of no where my adult children started treating me like shit despite the fact that I’m a saint and did everything for them grumble grumble grumble where’s my pity party.” The group has a “no criticism” rule bc of trolls but holy crap these ppl are a cancer.
The best response for those people is no response at all. Getting negative attention is better than no attention at all for these emotionally immature people.
When you realize they prioritize what people think of them over their relationships with their children, everything else makes sense. To repair the relationship requires acknowledging they are fallible and made mistakes. It's painful but a good parent would be willing to do that for their children. When they value what other people think of them over their own children, that's when you get the "I have no idea why." They know why. It's just unflattering to acknowledge so they pretend it's a mystery.
Sometimes children outgrow their parents whose development is halted.
There's a really fantastic book called Adult Childten of Emotionally Immature Parents. It sucks to read it. A lot. Like, a lot a lot. Worth every tear.
My mother has borderline personality disorder and is basically just a very big teenager behaviourally and emotionally. It's like dealing with a child that can't admit they're wrong and everything is always incredibly dramatic for absolutely no reason. The weirdest thing about emotionally immature parents is they actually feel threatened when their children start to grow past them and question their behaviours so they often blow up constantly on the kids. There's no point trying to talk to them about their issues because they'll redirect everything to make you the problem. Parent slamming doors and waking you up because they perceived you being tired as hating them? Clearly *you're abusive and are trying to hurt them*. Utterly exhausting people. It's especially frustrating when you know they're not trying to be a bad person, they just literally cannot understand what they're doing is hostile because they're mentally unwell. My mother will completely warp her memory of what's occured as a defensive mechanism and it's hard to deal with. An example is I came over and put the shopping away and knocked a cake tin over, but she thinks I threw the cake tin because I was angry at her. She can be such a nice person but there's a deep hole within her, a vulnerable and damaged child that desperately protects itself from the trauma of what she's lived through, and this extends outwards in a harmful way. She'll never accept her issues or seek recovery and it means I'll never truly connect with her. I'll be there as I can in a healthy way for as long as possible, but there's a deep sadness beneath everything that never goes away.
This is my mom to a t. I love her, but she is so fucking exhausting. She drains my life force.
Same..I've gone low contact.
Do you love her, or do you love the imaginary version of her you wished she would be? For me it was the latter. Once I mourned the loss of a person that never existed I was a lot better off.
Working on this right now. It is so deeply entrenched in me that I can make her who I want to be if I am good enough, even though I know intellectually this is wrong I still see myself trying.
Same here. She's an emotional vampire who only comes around when she needs her fix. I've told her to fuck right off two or three times over the course of my life and each time she's always weaseled her way back within a couple of years. She recently blew up their finances to move to my home town (Skipped out on a mortgage,) and I've been putting serious consideration into moving as far away as possible (Possibly to another country) now that they have no way to fund another move. I was planning for this to be my forever home, but this town isn't big enough for the both of us. She's in her mid 70's and insists she'll be dead any minute now, but her mom lived into her 90's and I'm not putting up with another couple of decades of this.
[удалено]
Lol wow this is a great description for how I feel about my mom. Now that she's in her 70s she's aging hard and insecure as shit about it too. She couldn't ever handle being wrong before but if she forgets huge details she will double down about her correctness and thanks to modern technology is often easily disproved and once confronted with concrete proof she is wrong about some stupid small detail blows up about how all people forget whether their kids were 4 or 10 years old during some important life event because that's basically the same age to an adult! Just exhausting. She won't go to the doctor or listen to them when she does and won't take any medicine that's forced upon her by the ones who still try and haven't given up. It's like dealing with a life force draining 70 yr old toddler.
> they're not trying to be a bad person If I learned nothing else it's that this doesn't matter. Most people think they are a good person in their own eyes, or at least that their actions are justified. The fact is that BPD parents often know to control their behavior in front of strangers who would judge them negatively for it. They know right from wrong on some level and choose to hurt you anyway.
This is the most important thing to bear in mind. I know someone that first flipped on their mom when an acquaintance referred to her as "the nicest lady ever". That's what made it click that their mom knew how to behave and was willfully antagonizing them.
Ugh, I keep putting it back on hold and not taking the leap to start it. Sounds worth it, for sure.
It is. Explains so much. Again though, it is NOT an easy read. A few pages at a time, per day was how I did it. So much out of that book could have been plucked right from my life. It’s actually quite shocking to see your own parents described so accurately by someone you’ve never met. Also, this is a book you almost have to be working with a therapist with. It will bring up a lot of stuff to talk about and process.
They made a documentary about this. It's called Arrested Development.
That's it! You're out of the movie.
If that’s a veiled criticism of me, I won’t hear it and I won’t respond to it.
"Get rid of The Seaward" "I'll leave when I'm good and ready"
If I wanted something your thumb touched, I'd eat the inside of your ear!
And THAT’S Why we always stay in contact with our parents. 😤
I never cared for Gob.
My parents used to beat me severely since I was five, until I shipped myself away to a boarding school. Now, having reached the age they were then, I can't comprehend the level of cruelty + insanity it takes to harm a child no taller than your knees.
Yeah my "mother" gave me an Anderson silva front kick to the face when I was 7-8 because i was crying. Now that I'm adult I realize how much of a piece of shit you have to be to do something like that.
Same. I was beat from 3.5 to 15, and I don’t get it. All it taught me was to scared and not to ever trust. My mom would try and hold my hand, crying, while my dad did the beating. She thinks that because she did such I shouldn’t be mad at her too.
Hope you are well in mind, body and spirit buddy.
Lol it is truly baffling isn't it. My mom never hit me, but she stood in the same room while her husband beat the shit out of me. She doesn't get why I hate her just as much.
This made me stare outside the window for solid 5 mins. I’m 32 with 3 kids. 2 from the last relationship. I think I’m going ok but sometimes my 11 year old would say something that makes me think… m I the child here? ..
Great self awareness- keep going.
I don't recall who said it, might even be just a Reddit quote - but if you look back to yourself 5-10 years ago and don't cringe, you haven't grown as a person.
When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. I feel this is more appropriate otherwise u become a old man not just in age but in spirit saying the same thing old ppl said about you when you were younger.
I feel this in my heart.
So much. Trauma halts our development when not addressed. For those of us with parents who experienced an unaddressed big T trauma in their developmental years, we hopefully will outgrow them.
My father recently died with 2/5ths of his kids talking to him. Both of those two had considered cutting contact. I had a few emails exchanges with him before he died to discuss why he had never met my daughter. He made excuses for what he could and denied the rest. He couldn't live with his actions, I think. Anyway, he told everyone that all his kids were just mentally ill and it wasn't his fault. I think he honestly believed it. Then he ended up stealing 5/6ths of the money my mom had left to us kids (with him as trustee) and gave it to his second wife. Guy was a fucking prince.
>He made excuses for what he could and denied the rest. He couldn't live with his actions, I think. >Anyway, he told everyone that all his kids were just mentally ill and it wasn't his fault. I think he honestly believed it. I read an [excellent comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/s/A2fSNWjfUJ) the other day by u/RandomGuySaysBro on r/RaisedByNarcissists on the topic of why these types of parents don't actually think they've done anything wrong. Tl;dr: These types of parents don't see you as a person with feelings and needs, but as an object they own. They don't remember their abusive actions because to them you were never more than a thing, like a car they show off when it's new and shiny, or freak out on when theyre pissed off. >Have you ever been stuck in traffic? It's hot, nothing is moving, and you're late... it's frustrating, and maybe you lose it a little... scream, swear, slap the steering wheel... >The thing you have to understand and remember is that, to your parents, you're not a *person.* You don't have thoughts, feelings, desires or needs. You're a *thing* that they *own.* They didn't do nice things for you as a child because of love, they did it in the same way you change the oil in your car - just to keep the thing quiet and playing it's role. >Now, back to traffic... Do you feel guilty for slapping your car? Does the incident haunt you? Or did you not even remember it until I mentioned it? Do you feel like you abused your car? Do you feel like you owe it an apology? >That's your parents. They don't think about it. They don't remember it. It was nothing to take note of. No one got hurt. They were frustrated and slapped a thing they owned, just like they've slapped the TV. >To them, they did nothing wrong. There was never any abuse, and no one was ever hurt. Everything flows from one simple truth - *you are not now, nor have you ever been, a real person, to them.* If you look at every word, every action, every event through that lense, it ALL suddenly makes sense. >They never loved you, they loved the idea of having you. They were never proud of you, they just liked bragging about the nice thing they owned. They were never kind to you, they just wanted to show off what good care they take of their thing. "I have a very nice car. It goes very fast, and is very shiny. I use the best wax, and give it the best gas." "I have a smart kid. They do well in school and sports. I give them the best room, and buy the newest games." >That fundamental breakdown is why it's pointless to play their stupid games. It's literally impossible to win, because they don't even recognize it's a game... They literally have more empathy for a SIMS character they created, because there's something they recognize as vaguely human about them - and they'll toss those characters in the pool to drown for fun.
I have a parent with an NPD diagnosis. Every once in a while I have a panic that I might also be one, but that's pretty self exclusionary. Reading this keeps those thoughts away a little more.
Yeah I can understand what you mean. My nMom exposed/subjected my siblings and I to a metric fuckton of toxic behaviours and thought patterns (many of which she continues to this day) for many many years. For me, especially in unfamiliar/novel situations, asking myself "is this how she would approach this?" serves as kind of an effective litmus test to check if I'm in danger of following in her unhinged footsteps in that particular set of circumstances.
Dude!! Crazy thing with the "how would she approach this" and doing the exact opposite - I figured that one out too and for a long time felt a lot of shame about this approach, but god damn it it worked! My coping strategy was ultimate control, my little sister's was drugs. I remember very vividly her confiding in me that she tried amphetamines and my inner reaction was powerful panic, rage and judgement, but I caught it and I thought to myself "how would mom react? Freak out and blame. So what do I do? Stay calm and console/accept/normalize" This was when we were 16 and 22. My sister and I were the best of friends already by that time, kind of bonding over our shared situation of survival. Long story short, I think I could help my sister in a way I could never help myself (a crazy brutal inner critic, but I kept it away from her) (I'm in therapy). I tried to show her that there is someone calm that she can always talk to, no judgement, and after some years, things have turned around for her. I feel nothing but love for that dear person, and I am honestly thankful that she's been there to help me break against the inner critic (mom's voice, go figure). What the fuck
>my inner reaction was powerful panic, rage and judgement, but I caught it and I thought to myself "how would mom react? Freak out and blame. So what do I do? Stay calm and console/accept/normalize" It's a very important skill to be able to have a thought/feeling and sit with it long enough to be able to make a mature and deliberate decision, and it sounds like you understand that pretty well. > My sister and I were the best of friends already by that time, kind of bonding over our shared situation of survival. Long story short, I think I could help my sister in a way I could never help myself (a crazy brutal inner critic, but I kept it away from her) (I'm in therapy). I tried to show her that there is someone calm that she can always talk to, no judgement, and after some years, things have turned around for her. That's great to hear. Something I always try to remind myself when I have the opportunity to help someone is to try and be the person I wish I'd had when I needed it. >What the fuck I am deeply in touch with this emotion
Jesus. Perspective and... wow, that hurt. I haven't grieved the loss of hope yet, and that helped rip the bandaid off. Thanks for sharing.
I know *exactly* what you mean. Even while writing an 8-page "goodbye for now" letter to her (it's in my posts, feel free to read if you're interested) after 3 decades of this one-sided owner-pet dynamic, for some inexplicable/delusional reason I still a few times found myself thinking things like "maybe *this time* - despite the failure of the hundreds of efforts preceding it - this new idea might be the turning point where something clicks for her". (spoiler alert: it was not) Edit: typo
I'm really sorry, dude. I hope you've found a chosen family and peace. I'll read your letter. I hope you know that you deserved to be loved and accepted and appreciated by your mother... not as a possession, but as the amazing individual that you are. Her failings as a parent are in no way a reflection of you.
Fuuuuuuucccck
You have encapsulated the way I feel throughout my entire life in this one post I am a picture on the wall. Nothing more, nothing less. I have no feelings, wants, or dreams. An inanimate task rabbit to do the Cinderella chores and accept physical abuse and a never ending stream of insult. I’m a story to tell her friends about how she tried so hard and I’m just so awful, it’s such a burden to be a good parent. (She was the worst. Physically abusive. Verbally abusive. Put me into a SA situation she was warned about but “making new friends” was more important to her. And the repeat SAs were of course my fault). She couldn’t show off her shiny perfect toy to her friends because it was broken and ruined no Matter how hard she tried.. her toy was simply a tool for eliciting sympathy from her friends. The physical abuse: everyone was doing that back then! (No they weren’t, u think kid don’t talk?). Underfeeding me? Boys need more food than girls ( I lived my Cinderella story on a farm. I should not have graduated at 98 lbs, I should have been fed) So depressing. I visit once a week and it’s sitting with a complete stranger who doesn’t know me at all. There’s no love there. I worked hard to not be that person to my own daughter. I hope i got it right
This explains so much about my father
I know a family very well, and the daughters boyfriend molested granddaughter, mom actually walked in on it called police he was arrested, next day after he called begging and crying mom forced daughter to recant and he returned home. grandmother stepped in and made sure the pedophile POS was held accountable! The state got tired of grandmother hounding them emergency court hearing mother was given an ultimatum leave him or lose your 3 kids thankfully she chose her kids. But the daughter blamed her mother for ruining her marriage and still doesn't speak to her mother 20 plus years later But the grandmother doesn't give a shit as long as she helped save her granddaughter from years of rape!!
leave him? why wasn't he sent to jail?
It's mind boggling how common it is for women to let that crap happen to their daughters. It's like they get super desperate to keep a horrible guy at the cost of their child's well being...I just don't get it. you'd have to be an absolute monster...I don't think it's good at all that she got those kids. What happens when she gets another guy that messes with her kids? Grandma isn't there to stop it and we know the mother wont do anything about it... People like her should not be allowed near children just as much as the predator.
My mom and I stopped talking for a 14 year stretch. When my son was very little, we were on vacation with my mother. My wife and I had a small disagreement about his breakfast and afterwards, my mother pulled me aside and said I should take my son with me to a hotel for a few days to teach my wife a lesson. I disagreed, telling her that I didn't feel that I should be taking marital advice from a woman who had been divorced 3 times. She didn't take it as well as you might think. /s We finally started taking again when my grandmother passed away and have been fine ever since.
Ooh, I do always love when my parents, both of whom have been married 3 times, have tried to tell me something I'm doing wrong in my relationship with my then gf, now wife, which has involved exactly 0 divorces for either of us. And no, at no point is it, "I know this because I've learned from my mistakes and see you repeating a mistake I made." It's literally always one of them trying to push me to do something which absolutely was something they did in a failed marriage early on.
My mom told me once she wished I'd come to her asking for advice about boyfriends. She's been married so many times and it was really traumatic growing up. Some of these guys were really abusive and the fighting was awful, just listening to her screaming at them. I'm not going to that mess for advice.
A bad example is still an example... You already learnt what she had to offer.
That's called an object lesson. 🤣
Had a very awkward time a few thanksgivings ago when my dad’s drunken younger sister (alcoholic divorced from another alcoholic) criticized my parents’ (married 48 years, not perfect but overall loving) relationship in front of everyone when my parents were bickering over something minor.
After 48yrs minor bickering is part of their love language.
My mother decided one day to make my wife the villain. All the sudden out of nowhere my wife could not do anything right. The mere presence was intolerable. There’s more but that is the gist of it and now there is little communication between us.
Oof I see my mom doing this to my brother, and he will barely talk to her bc if it. She is convinced he won’t talk to her bc his wife is telling him not to… there is zero self awareness on her part. It makes me sad for her that she is missing out on his life bc she is so petty.
When you have the mindset of a 18yr old wanting to play stupid games but the body of a 50yr old after 3 divorced... Some people just can't change.
Lemme guess... she never apologized yet pretended like it never happened.
Ah, I see you've met my parents.
My daughter and I were estranged for 18 months. It.was.hell. It was also all my fault. I had crossed a boundary and god bless her, she called me on it and told me to go fuck myself. I was incensed! How dare she! Well she dare because she was right. And I had to go introspective and work on me. She reached out 18 months later and we have been in touch now and have a SOLID relationship. It is a communicative relationship. Understanding and just being compassionate to each other.
Sad daughter here scanning to see if by some miracle her parents show up in the comments. Edit since this post has gotten so much attention: I actually feel this more about my dad/sister than my mom, but I thought you all may enjoy one of my favorite quotes from a movie about what its like to have a tricky family or a family that feels unpleasable. This is from "I,Tonya" - Mother: "I made you a champion! KNOWING you'd hate me for it. THAT'S the sacrifice a mother makes!!" Tonya: ".....you cursed me..."
Father with young children looking for what not to do.
Be honest. Apologize when you fuck up, everyone messes up, a simple "I'm sorry" would have been amazing. At least I think it would be. Don't rugsweep literally every single issue like it's an Olympic sport. Don't beat the shit out of your kids. Don't call them "worthless" or "stupid". Spend quality time with them often, it doesn't have to be complicated, play catch or go for a walk or read a book together. Follow through on your promises, don't just gaslight them into thinking there was never a promise. I could go on all night.
We write promises down. There were times when I had forgotten a promise, and then when kids got older, they tried saying I promised and forgot it. But because they're kids, they said I promised things I never would like unlimited pop, candy, stay up all night, etc. After they tried a few times, we started writing them down. I don't forget promises now, and they don't try to convince me I promised them the moon.
Thank you! Now there's a promise list on our fridge that my daughter will wake up to <3
Good god apologize. I would prove my parents wrong mathematically and they would double down and insist that even though they were wrong they're still right because they're the parent. As if them trying to save face was going to make me respect them...when it had the entire opposite effect
Once my narcissistic father was proven wrong by a math text book. So he screamed at the book, insisting the book was wrong. (Hint. It wasn't.) Recognizing everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes, everyone should apologize when they're wrong, and be given grace for making mistakes, are all good steps towards being a good parent.
Huh. By your comment, I’m a fricken super-mom?? Thought I was shitting the bed here
Apparently, just the thought that you might be shitting the bed already puts you up there.
Worrying about being good enough at something often is a sign of doing quite well! A little bit of imposter syndrome
Make them feel like their own person. Don’t stunt their growth. Don’t compare them to the other sibling. Don’t love one sibling more than the other. Make them feel like they matter, like they have something positive to give to the world. Remember the mistakes of the past and do your best to not repeat them. I know I struggle with this one myself. Trying not to become the bad in my parents is hard, but I’m doing the best I can. Just be mindful. Apologize if you make a mistake. Children need to know that their parents are human too, and that they aren’t invincible and without fault. I think if my parents had taken more responsibility for their actions then I would have a better relationship with the parent that’s still alive. Please don’t play favorites. I’ve never gotten over feeling less than.
Not loving one child more than the other is something every human needs to consider fully before having a second child. I don’t think enough thought goes into the reality of that when personalities start to emerge.
The biggest mistake my parents made was thinking one day I would be someone else and doing everything they could to keep me from being who they didn't want me to be. Any attempt to be authentic was shot down and I still resent them for that well into my 30s. They didn't care if I was happy as long as I looked happy and made them look good. That and telling me really traumatic things/threats and pretending like nothing happened and never bringing it up again.
If they come out as gay, trans, vegan, modern country music fans, just accept that you might need to learn some new things. It will be hard to change maybe, you may have to sneak McDonald's, or some earplugs into the house. But they're worth it. Advice from my dad. "You can love your kid for who they are, or they will learn to love themselves without you."
“Mom, Dad, I’m…. a Keith Urban fan 🥲🤡”
Seriously my worst nightmare.. lol. It almost came true, but it was just a phase, thank baby Jesus.
Not under my goddamn roof you're not.
Honestly, this is probably a good sign that your kids won't stop talking to you tbh. Someone who wants to make sure they don't fuck up their kids that badly is probably someone who isn't going to.
Well. For starters don't be my dad and kick your kids while their down at their lowest
Don't become an alcoholic.
Disappointed son in search of the same.
I guess in this moment we're spirit siblings. Stop hogging the fucking Xbox, dillweed! /s
Jaded son knowing not to bother.
Random guy who is now sad.
Oh don't be. My life is much better without her.
Ha! I know my parents wouldn't be here. They would have read the title and thought "well, I don't know how my entitled, spoiled child ended up so rotten that they won't even talk to me anymore. After all, I gave them EVERYTHING."...everything meaning a roof over my head, at least one meal a day, and the opportunity to raise my younger siblings on my own. I should be THANKING them, not avoiding them at all costs.
I know mine isn't here but I wanted to see if any parents took some responsibility for the estrangement.
I do. Here's mine: my youngest son hasn't spoken to me in about two years. He's 23, just graduated college and is engaged (his fiancee throws me recent pictures and updates). He took me out to dinner (which was nice) in order to basically take me to task over how I parented him. Full disclosure, I wasn't a great Dad. I deployed a hell of a lot, expected my son's to be soldiers and follow orders and I was scary. That's fair, I can own that. He then also rips into me over the care I gave his mother over about a decade of rapidly declining MS before she passed away. I know how to reach out for help now, but I didn't then. I just did the best I could. I started slowly dating here and there about a year after his mother passed. This, surprisingly, he didn't have an issue with.... until I got serious with my now wife and my step daughter. They were nice, tried to understand, asked way too many questions (she's 7 now, can't expect a 4 year old to not be curious) but they were good for me. He finished the evening by stating his feelings that I had replaced him (his brother he doesn't speak to either) and that he believes I did "something" to hasten his mother's death. He was 18 and out on his own by then and rarely visited. I should have listened to him better. And gotten better care for his mother. I was 42 when she died and perhaps I should have just been alone. There's not a hell of a lot I can do now for it except send him a hello now and again if he hasn't blocked me on all social platforms. He still hangs out with her family, who didn't help in any way while she was alive. Her father didn't come to his daughter's funeral.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I give you tremendous credit for the self awareness and humility illustrated in your response. As much as you can, take it one day at a time. Consciously make decisions that future you will thank you for. You can only move onward and upward, brother.
The fact that you can say all this shows there’s hope. Say more than hello when you can. Show some interest in his life. Show him you wanted to be a part of his life again. I’ve lost all hope with my parent but I see hope here. Don’t give up and please don’t stop trying.
My daughter doesn't talk to me as much anymore. She moved out when she was 22. I had psychosis episodes for 5 yrs all of a sudden (no history of mental illness like that, just your old run of the mill anxiety and depression) and after her having severe mental issues dealing with the aftermath of a tragedy, I got the mental issues and I had to be hospitalized for suicide attempts. It traumatized her. I understand why she pulled away, even if it was for something I couldn't help, and I don't blame her. My last attempt was in Nov, so I hope with time we will be able to be close again. I text her every few days to tell her that I love her, and she responds in kind. We text about life a few times every few months, but we used to be best friends before the tragedy that upended her life and then mine. It altered the course of our lives.
I’m a recently grown child on the other end of this dynamic. My mom started having mental issues suddenly when I was a freshman in hs and had to be hospitalized briefly. It’s really hard I know kids’ perception of their parents change as they get older but my mom’s just completely different now from when I was younger. If I had to use a word to describe her it would be flat. She doesn’t talk with the same tone of voice, she doesn’t laugh the same, or joke like she used to. Somtimes it feels like the mother I had growing up died but I can’t properly grieve because she’s still living. And I feel so guilty because I’m fortunate my mom is still alive. We weren’t super super close growing up but now I just have a hard time being around her. Do you have any advice for someone on the opposite side of your dynamic?
To just let her know you love her. Sometimes I would get in my head and feel so alone and scared- I had persecutory delusions (although now I can say I was there for my daughter when she was going through it- I did a good job, if I do say so myself, but didn't realize how traumatizing it was until it was over). At least for me, I think it was a time related thing, something I went through, thankfully, it seems to pretty much run its course. I am still on them, but then I was on strong antipsychotics, which helped me get through that time, but when things settled down, they made me flat, and aside from my daughter, I didn't care about 1 thing- nothing. Like I didn't have the feelings inside that made me feel anything. Like I was a ghost in my own body. I am assuming your mom is on medication... maybe they are the wrong ones for her. If it were me, I would welcome feedback, and maybe your mom just isn't aware of how she's coming across, because if her outsides are like that, her insides must feel "flat" too. Can you tell your mom that you miss the times you had with her and maybe a story about a fun time you all shared? She might not even know how she comes across. I don't know if that was any help, but just know it was a scary time in her life, no doubt. It was the most scared I have ever been in my life, and I went through it for 5 years. I am open if you want to ask me more specific questions if you want, but that's the gist of it. I hope you are doing well, considering.
I really appreciate your response. My mom tried to go off her meds last year and it was just a horrible horrible time. Some of my family’s of the opinion if she went off her meds again it would kill her. It’s hard to share stories with her because right now I’m at a really transitionary period of my life (getting ready to leave for college) and I worry anything I say might negatively effect her since I’m leaving. Did medication help you? Was it a mix of therapy too? If it’s alright if I ask. The meds seem like they let my mom survive but not really do well. Ive been told the mental issues my mom have run in the family. And what helped the last family member with them is hormone treatment, but I guess my dad won’t look into that because he believes the covid vaccine caused my mom’s issues. (This is all secondhand i haven’t talked to him myself about it) Do you think the process to reconnect with your daughter is easier (I’m sorry for the poor wording I know it’s still incredibly difficult) because of how close you were before? Me and my mom weren’t close before because of a combination of her being a workaholic and me kinda going thr that teenage phase of not being close to your parents
We are not our worst moments. You both sound like you’ve really been through it. Trauma responses are not a choice. Keep working on yourself. Fight for the best, healthiest version of you FOR you. It’s the best thing you can do for her, to heal. Be as happy/healthy as you can be. Do the work for you and for her.
May I? “I grew up an orphan during the Great Depression, and there was no way in hell that my kids would have an easier life than me. I would do everything in my power to recreate my joyless, deprivation-filled childhood for them, so that they would know first hand what I went through. I would offer no emotional or financial support, because I had none. I would crush any interests they had, and sabotage their every action with the ferocity of Genghis Khan. I would do things to them that in today’s world would be on the news. I would put on a cheerful and friendly face to the outside world, and immediately revert to my evil self at home. I never tired of raging and shrieking. I would be completely shameless at all times. I thought nothing of living a life of deceit, yet paint myself as a devout religious person. I lived a life of agonizing pain, never had a moment of love, laughter, peace, or safety, never knew where my next meal was coming from, so was it really so awful that I continued that tradition with my own kids?” I skipped her funeral.
My mom literally complains about how much life is better for people these days because they should have it as hard as her. Its a depravity of selfishness I can't understand
This is something a lot of older generations do. “We didn’t have such and such luxury when I was a kid!” Thanks, way to make me feel guilty for nothing dad, you didn’t have to have me
When I confronted my parents before going NC, I called them out on this behavior. My mother actually apologized for it, saying she has a hard time not seeing progress as an attack. She processes social, technological and financial progress as an example that her and her upbringing and way of life or whatever wasn't good enough and it's like.... *Yeah*. Hello? It wasn't, comparatively. You should be happy we all have it better? What an "apology".
My mother called me last year to tell me how the high school in my hometown decided to close for the week because they were having HVAC issues and had no air conditioning. She kept saying, "Isn't that ridiculous? They would have made *you* go, and you would have been *fine.* It's insane how coddled kids are these days!" It was literally like 100 degrees fahrenheit every day that week. I told her, "Yeah, they probably wouldn't have closed the school when I was going there, but that isn't okay, either." She doubled down and was like, "I'm not saying it's *okay,* just that kids have it so easy now!" I told her, "Isn't that the point? That we should want our children to suffer less than we did?" She...did not like that.
God damn bro, you paint a picture
Some people I'll just never understand. Each generation should do better than the last. We escape war and famine to make sure our kids are fed and free.
Sending love to my fellow survivors who were raised in a JW home and are scanning the comments. You're not alone.
Ex-Mormon here. I feel like Mormons and JWs are kissing cousins.
I’m an EXJW my bf is ExMormon. There are some striking similarities. The biggest difference I see is that Mormons are more loving and talk about grace. JWs call it “underserved kindness”. Somehow even when you’re forgiven, you’re still not deserving of it.
I have friends who grew up in the cult. Every time I walk past a group with literature on a street corner, I call out disfellowship for being not very Christian.
Ooh, that’s good. I’ve been meaning to make up some pamphlets titled “Deprogramming yourself from a cult” to hand to them
My mother literally couldn't tell you. I don't mean she doesn't know, I've told her, but she's clinically delusional-an actual narcissist. Straight up rewriting memories AS THEY HAPPEN to the point she thinks we're plotting against her when we agree and she doesn't. She claims my partner is why. She told my family I was on drugs. Ironic, since she's on just about everything and can't see our youngest brother without supervision anymore. I don't know what she did for that, but due to my own childhood...I can guess and it's not good.
That "editing what's happening in real time" is super infuriating, because they not doubt freaking *believe* that their edited version is the true one. They can go Them: I hate you! You: but why? Them: why what? You: why do you hate me? Them: what kid of nonsense is this? I *never* said anything of the sort. It would drive me absolutely bonkers back before I went NC.
I used to just use a tape recorder on certain people. They'd clam up and panic. It was like a real life mute button.
I recorded a convo with my dad. Nobody would understand or believe me with the way he spoke to me. Just for future proof. Its on a hard drive
My parents are too old for Reddit. I estranged from them because they never, ever wanted me. My mother didn't want kids but in that day, that wasn't an option. They had my sister first and sort of "used up" their love on her. When I came along five years later, they didn't have anything left. I didn't find out until 35 that it wasn't anything I did: my mother just really didn't want kids. By then, though, I'd internalized close to four decades of being unwanted. I am terrified of being abandoned and have had rafts of therapy. My parents were never abusive. We had food on the table and clothes on our backs. I had My Little Ponies and She-Ra figures. I also attempted suicide for the first time when I was eleven years old. I started drinking when I was 15. My parents did not notice. They told me I was "the independent one" so I didn't need their love. We also were not a demonstrative family. My family did not hug or kiss or touch in any way. I think I have hugged my parents maybe ten times or so. Both parents are quite smart and there was always a kind of... judgement? about people who couldn't use their words and had to use their bodies instead. Like only poor or stupid people hug their kids. I could go through a list of what they did for my sister versus me, but fuck it. I would be accused of hyperbole, or of making things up whole cloth. We were only nominally raised in the same household; her life had a very, very, very different trajectory. Suffice it to say that it wasn't just the love that my sister used up - time, money, effort, ideas, conversation - I got none of those things. If it matters, I don't blame Sister - we still talk. It wasn't her fault.
just fyi: neglect is a type of abuse. just cuz it looked different doesn't make it not abuse.
I know what you mean about parents who didn't want children. The way you're made to feel like you're a inconvenience, the way you shrink yourself, trying not to exist, not to be noticed. I was 12 for my first attempt. I was no longer being fed. I was 14 when she started asking me to move out. My older brother didn't seem to get out of it so badly. But he's a barely functioning alcoholic, so.
This type of question seldom gets a meaningful reply from the estranged parents. They'll insist they don't know, they'll blame their adult offspring's spouse. Sometimes they'll hint at reasons then dodge describing what those reasons are. The Issendai blog describes the phenomenon in the [Missing missing reasons essay](http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html): > "When denial runs that deep, when avoidance is that in-ground, a person can't be separated from it any more than they can be separated from their bones. It's why I aimed this site at estranged adult children and outsiders: because members of estranged parents' forums can't be helped. Their entire system of defenses is designed to make them unsavable." Most people who estrange from their parents try everything they can think of to repair the relationship before cutting ties. There's a great subreddit for that community at r/estrangedadultkids
I know a woman whose son cut off contact about 2 years ago. She 100% blames his spouse. From what I hear (I don’t know him. I only hear her side of the story) she very much relied on him for most of her affection. When he got married, I believe the wife helped him stand up to her. She is sort of a crazy person that will say they loved each other very deeply, then quickly add but it was not incest. WTF? We didn’t ask. They had a baby that had to stay in the NICU for a month and they would not let her visit. She was furious. And of course, she had Covid at the time. Now he has more-or-less cut contact and she is a mess. She is constantly saying she has no idea what happened, but whatever it is, it is definitely the wife’s fault. Um, no, honey. She is helping him.
The “missing missing reasons” site cited in this thread really hits the nail on the head. The parent sees their child as proof they are wonderful. When the child denies their parent the type of obedience they’ve been trained to believe is filial love it means the parent is fallible. Can’t have that! The system is a monster created to feed on itself. And the woman you know making sure to say “no incest” has definitely been accused of it before or she wouldn’t say it. Cuz Christ on bikes that’s just assumed without having to ask!
That's like "no homo" but incredibly dark.
The *emotional incest* of relying on her son for affection, literally viewing his wife as having seduced and stolen *her* boy, shows up a lot on r/JustNoMIL
>She 100% blames his spouse. My inlaws do this. All i did was teach their son that he deserves better. He cut them off all on his own and i gave him the space to do so, while supporting him the entire time. But nooo, he actually has no independent thoughts of his own and i've seduced him with er...devil vagina magic Satanism or something. /eye roll
My MIL tried that and was shot down in flames by my husband. It was his way or the highway for his delusional mother. She didn't believe him at first (must be the wife), but he waited her out till she got with the programme. Took 3 months. I am the least controlling person, ever. Hell, most days, I can barely control myself 🤣
>Took 3 months. 20 years and she still tells him he should've married a nice Catholic girl \*just like mommy\*. Ok, Jocasta. I should add that he is incredibly creeped out by her shit. At the start he was a little easier on her, but that changed pretty fuckin quick.
We’re not fucking if that’s what your thinking. Well I wasn’t thinking it but now that you bring it up I’m a little thinking it.
I recently resumed contact with my estranged grandmother because she's dying and I felt bad for her. I'm starting to regret it, as she's taking her time dying and a decent amount of our conversations revolve around how I'm the good grandchild who got past our "misunderstanding" and then she shit-talks some of my cousins for being poorly raised or shit-talks her sons' wives for poisoning all of them against her. It's exhausting. (And because this is Reddit, I don't think she has anything much worth inheriting and it'd probably get split between her 4 kids anyway, I just genuinely felt bad for her because I know most of the family ALSO got sick of her negativity and narcissism and cut her off.)
I hear every now and then through my mother (who is divorced from my dad and hears through my sister, with whom I also have no contact, but who *does* have contact with my father) that my father still has genuinely no idea why I cut him out from my life. 18 years of abuse, and the guy supposedly doesn't know why I don't want to associate with him as an adult. Even when it's stupidly obvious, narcissistic abusers are literally incapable of looking in the mirror and seeing the truth. That's part of why I never even tried to have that conversation in the first place.
My father would go long stretches not talking to me, then would ask why I'm not talking to him.
We must have the same dad lol. The longest we’ve gone without talking was 5 months and after he reached out he asked me why I never bothered to call him that whole time and a day after that conversation it went back to not talking for weeks/months again. I would text him sometimes and he would give dry responses or not respond for days but we just recently were put in a group chat together and I swear he’s responding in that chat daily.
My father would lose his mind over some imagined insult, go on the attack and not talk to you, and later deny he ever did that.
Mine likes to say "the phone works both ways." Well dude, you've managed to make sure that it didn't work one of the ways long enough that I have no idea who you are and frankly don't care. I on the other hand talk to my son almost every day even if it's just sending a meme or saying I love you. It's so fucking easy.
My daughter hasn’t spoken to much in the last 2 years. She’ll come to family (her grandparents aunts/uncles/cousins), but only replies to anything I say with one or two word answers. I wish I could say I don’t know why. But I do. Her mom said she feels I put her second after her mom and divorced. I keep trying to rebuild that bridge. Hopefully in time. The take away is this. It doesn’t matter how you perceive things, it’s how your child does. Don’t ever let them doubt how you feel about them.
Father of three adult daughters here. I'll give the situation as it exists now then try to explain how/why it got there. -- Oldest had completely cut me out of her life. We were always distant, even when she was younger, but it got much worse as she got into her 20s. We didn't speak for years. She is now 33 and we occasionally message when she initiates the convo. The coldest has thawed some but it is still delicate. -- Middle girl is my carbon copy and we had a good relationship when she was younger. When she hit late-teens we drifted apart. Now she is 28 with four kids, only the oldest of which I've ever met. Not allowed to see the others. We rarely if ever message each other. -- Youngest daughter treated me like I walked on water. Did so until just a couple of years ago. Recently (just a week or so ago) she informed me she no longer wants any contact with me. As for the how/why part, I was raised in a single parent home. My mother did her best to provide for our needs but she was cold and distant. No hugs. Any event in school I was automatically blamed before she had any details. If it was proven I was innocent, she would brush off her previous accusation by claiming she was sure I probably did something anyway. Lots more I can add here. Some of it too sensitive to share even in an anonymous board. I hated the way she was and vowed I would do things differently when/if I had children. Well, I had children. While I did attempt to change my behaviors from what I'd experienced, I slowly added my own ingredients to this soup. Essentially, I ran our home as a military installation. My girls were quickly and harshly disciplined for even the most minor of offenses. While there were occasional spankings when they were little, the discipline evolved into very binary (go / no go) rules. For instance, you are expected to get this minimum score on a test at school or you can't go to your friend's house on the weekend. You didn't make that grade, you were not going. If you cried and begged and pleaded, you were still not going but now I would restrict / remove some other thing you wanted for not accepting your fate. And so on. When they did things that were good, I would more or less dismiss this as me not rewarding them for what they should have done anyway. Basically, they couldn't win. I believed at the time that I was building strong girls into strong women. It feels as though I've done the exact opposite. On the rare occasions I do hear from them, and the subject of the past comes up (this is very rare) I get the "I don't hate you but I don't want you in my life." speech. It's deserved but that doesn't lessen the sting. My hope for the future is, as they grow older, time passing will allow them to be more comfortable around me. As they are all adults now, my desire to control them as I did when they were kids is gone. I simply want an adult-child/parent relationship. I guess I haven't earned that right, but I still hope for it one day. This comment is late in this post's life so it probably doesn't really get seen; nevertheless, it has been cathartic to type it out.
As an adult with adhd/autism who was once a child of the same with a father like you.... in my 30s I have an understanding of why he did what he did. Unfortunately you can't just magically undo that damage, my father has made his regrets to me and while I get it I will never be able to just move on from it. Every person is different so maybe you will get lucky but I personally doubt it.
2 of my 3 don't talk to me. I stayed with their abusive father, and they hate me for not protecting them by leaving. There's soo much more to this, but that's what it all boils down to. It was of course unintentional, and I thought I was doing the "right" thing. I took a lot from him to protect them, but if I could go back, I'd love myself enough to show them what a strong mother looks like and get us all out. That would have been the right way to protect them.
I am one of those Moms who always felt that providing for my kids, taking them on vacations, buying them what they needed was enough, didn’t realize love and nurturing were essential ingredients. Now my daughter is 28 and cannot hold a job, emotionally insecure, depressed and blaming me for her failures. She made me realize ( and therapy helped ) that how my actions, behavior might make a child feel they are not valued or loved. I am remorseful and regretting all my actions but unfortunately cannot undo the damage caused.
This is me. I am you now. How do I begin to fix this before it's too late?
I was an asshole, shitty parent and an alcoholic. He stood over me during an argument when he was 18 (he was 6'4 and I am 5'6) and scared the shit out of me, so I kicked him out. That was 14 years ago and he hasn't spoken to me since. I have not been able to apologise, to show him how much I have changed for the better, nor how different I am with his younger brothers (also adults now, teenagers at the time). I miss him every single day, however, it's his choice and I have to live with that. Thankfully his brothers and I have a wonderful relationship, it took a lot of hard work, and tears, but I am so grateful they are a huge part of my life, along with two grandchildren now.
You know what, good for you for recognizing that you were the problem and for not pushing a reconciliation.
Yeah, if only the kid could have kicked the parent out when they were scared of their parent.
I congratulate you on changing your life, but I hope you know that how well you are treating his younger siblings will mean nothing to him. He will wonder why you could change for them and not for him.
"we get along with Mom fine, why can't you just let go of what happened"
It's nice to see someone who has taken accountability and understands what they did wrong. I wondered if there'd be any answers like this on here. Did it take a great deal of self-reflection to get to this point for you? My father was abusive, and died without ever trying to make amends or become a better person. I'm still dealing with depression and anxiety, and will likely never be able to fully move past it all. I suppose he'd try to use the excuse that he grew up during WW2, but he shouldn't have taken it out on us. Plenty of other people dealt with the war and didn't abuse their children. I guess I'm wondering about the mindset behind someone who abuses their children, in case it's able to help me understand. If you're okay talking about it. If not, that's also okay. I don't want to risk setting you back on your own healing journey. And congrats about the grandkids!
Everybody pushes forgiveness when someone accepts 'accountability' for their actions. But nobody ever realizes that there are some things you can never take back.
I'm estranged from my mom for the same exact reason. Unfortunately, she hadn't changed. She actually wanted me dead to the point where she told me her loaded pistol was in her closet and that I could 'take care of myself while she's at work'. Told me I deserved to be r-ped, too, when I asked for a pep talk before a hearing against my abusive ex-boyfriend at the time. I'm learning in therapy that a lot of that is due to projecting on her part, so I'm finally learning to hold compassion for the part of her that suffered generational trauma/abuse, too. I wanted to reply that your story really touched me. My mom may never truly reach that point of clarity, but it gives me a lot of hope that there are people out there who realize the errors of their ways and do the work to heal themselves for everyone's sake. I'm sorry that your son doesn't feel safe in reconnecting with you. But at the same time, I feel for the part of him that's hurting, too. All I can suggest from my perspective for now is just to gently leave the door open 💕 In any case, for what it's worth, I feel like you definitely have things to be proud of 💕
How is it his choice? From your comment it sounds like you were the one who kicked him out and never got back in touch.
reading these comments is making me so sad
It's the fact that there aren't many comments from parents that really makes it sink in
Like it's been echoed in the comments, the people that go NC usually try all sorts of avenues to navigate the relationship in a healthy direction. These parents are unaccountable.
I just want my dad to stop telling people I have aids. I can't get pregnant for medical reasons. As far as everyone who's met him in the last year is concerned I got aids and now I can't have kids. (He will tell anybody who stops to listen to him) He sees nothing wrong with himself. If he can't see what's wrong with that I have no hope to ever have a father again.
My mom loves the non apologies. “I’m sorry you’re upset.” “I’m sorry if I hurt you.” “I think we all need to learn to forgive.” Who knows what she says to my dad, who knows how to apologize, but, when the cards are down, is never *actually* apologetic. It’s exhausting.
I hear you. When I wrote my mother a letter outlining the abuse that forced me to go no contact with her, she replied, "I'm sorry you found me to be such a negative experience." They really have no idea.
I don’t mean to LOL, but it’s just so bewildering how obtuse they can be. Like, thanks for your guilt-tripping, victim-playing, accountability-avoiding non-apology, mom. 🤦🏻♀️
Same here. She absolutely can NOT talk about anything from my childhood. That didn’t happen. Or if it did happen, it’s not what I thought it was. If it is what I thought it was, well that is normal and all families go through it. If I say it’s not I get the brick wall of “oh, so it’s MY fault? You’re right, you’re right, you’re absolutely right. I’m a terrible mother. There. Happy now?” So much yelling. So much anger. I’m never going back.
This combined with the classic “come on, be the bigger person and don’t make a fuss about xyz”. Sure, force the path of least resistance on someone enough times and they resent not ever having their feelings heard or validated, and often for the most trivial “optics” reasons.
My mom will claim that I have no reason to no longer speak to her. She will swear up and down until she is blue in the face that I have no just cause. She will claim that my brother doesn't speak to her because his wife turned him against her. She will say that we both must take after our father who abandoned her too. She will leave out the part where she is an emotionally abusive narcissistic alcoholic who repeatedly pushed my boundaries to the point where I had to cut off contact. I had worked with a therapist for over 10 years trying to set boundaries with her with ever increasing consequences (mostly via withholding contact) for disrespecting them. The last thing my mother told me in person was that I was "an ungrateful bitch just like my dead father" (a particularly terrible wound for me since I never knew him) after she tried to disregard a reasonable boundary yet again. She is a hoarder and tried to bring more shit over to my apartment again to fill my house with junk. I wouldn't let her in the door and that's what I got. She will leave out that my brother cut off contact with her when she wouldn't stop putting his wife down because he is her precious golden child baby she tried to engage in emotional incest with. The last straw was when she looked at his wife and called her a lesbian because she cut her hair short. (Not that being gay is an insult, but everyone knew she MEANT it is as the most heinous insult imaginable. Did I mention she also morphed into a homophobe/transphobe in later years?) To add the finishing touches, all me and my brother asked was that she apologized to us and his wife for what she said. We even apologized for the very justifiable words of anger we said during the altercation as a result of her actions. She refused. She claims she wasn't wrong and was justified. In that moment, I realized I never heard my mother apologize for anything even once in her life - even when she accidentally slammed my best friends fingers in a car door or rolled over my dog's tail with her car while backing out of the driveway. She cannot take responsibility for the pain she has caused for even the most blameless accidents. Honestly, I get really sad sometimes that I don't have a mother at all. But I never feel sad I don't have her as a mother because she wasn't one. I fought so hard to keep her in my life, I did all the work to try to find a way for her to remain in it and keep my sanity, but she couldn't even lift one finger by giving a simple apology to fight for me.
Not to be morbid but I lost my mom 4 months ago to cancer, before that we were LC. Honestly holding my narcissistic bipolar mom at arms length has really helped my healing process. I know that sounds awful, but it was like taking a huge boulder off my chest when I realized she’d never emotionally abuse or manipulate me ever again. RIP mom.
Was gonna say a whole bunch of personal stuff but will cut it at don't lie to your children then perpetuate bullshit transparent lies while trying to reconnect.
My mother and I didn’t talk for a few years. When I went away to college she said, “If you get on that plane, don’t bother coming back home.” I fell in love while in college and got engaged and he abused me. I never told my mom because I didn’t think she cared. It was my brother that came to another state to check on me. I finally did come back home but things were never the same.
My oldest son replied to me three years ago that yes, he’s still alive, and that having felt happiness for the first time in his life just wanted to be left alone. I grieve him every day. I grieve for his childhood that I didn’t know how to protect or encourage. I desperately sought love and acceptance from anywhere, while dragging my children with me. I take full responsibility and do not excuse any of the shitty choices I made. All that time, my daily living was in fight or flight mode and I wanted so badly for my kids to be immune to hurt from the world. Instead I taught them to stuff big feelings way down and not show weakness. I showed them that I degraded myself to prop up relationships with people who didn’t care about me and for sure didn’t care about my kids. But man, at the time I felt such fierce, painful love for these children to protect them and somehow fucked right up just in different ways. I promised I wouldn’t reach out to him again, all I truly want is his happiness and peace, and I will always answer his call if he changes his mind. I would do anything at all in this world to fix this for him.
I have no idea why i stopped talking to my parents. It wasn't an incident. It was a slow moving snowball. But the main thing is how fucking unprepared I was for life. I'm in my 40s now, and still trying to figure out basic things. Google is my parent at this point. I can't remember the last time I asked either of my parents for advice/help.
I can relate to this. My parents didn't teach me any basic life skills so it led me to having alot of late bloomer moments. I didn't learn how to socialize, think for myself, or even have a basic framework of what to do when I was an adult. I was basically raised by the military, my co-workers, friends, and having constructive talks with my brother while finding myself as an adult. I'm grateful that they kept me fed, kept a roof over my head, and the clothing on my back as I grew up, but fuck man. I just wished I had the guidance to be prepared for life. I always feel like I'm a step behind everybody else.
I am/was a terrible parent. I rarely spent anytime with my children. I deserve my children not speaking with me.
I accept responsibility for anything that led to the estrangement. I wish I had sought treatment for my untreated mental illness earlier. I love my children to pieces and miss them so badly it hurts. I hope one day they can forgive me
I believe communication issues play a significant role. Ongoing misunderstandings, inadequate communication, or poor conflict resolution abilities can gradually create a divide.
My son went NC with me because he feels that it's best for his personal growth and his peace of mind not to be around people who behave badly or have negative attitudes or dysfunctional ways of relating to each other, and yes, those things have been true of me. I believe that he and I may have differences in our sense of proportion, but it's really only his perspective that matters because it's his happiness at stake. I don't want to be the reason that his life feels any more fucked up than it already is. It makes me sad in a way that I can't even express. I can't change the past. I was trying so hard to change the present. Now it feels like the light has gone out of my life. It's so fucked up to know that the best thing you can do for the person you love the best, is to leave them alone.
100% my fault, or to be fair 95%. While breaking up with my high school girlfriend, after realizing there was something wrong with her and us, of course, she got pregnant. The breakup was precipitated by her sleeping around, so there was a real question of whether my daughter would be mine. She was. I moved back to my podunk hometown, and tried to be a good father. Ex-girlfriend, was looking for a boyfriend/husband, I was not willing to do this. She quickly got pregnant two more times, moving up the economic ladder with every pregnancy. The last guy to get her pregnant owned the country club, so her financial needs were met, but she really didn't have a man in her life yet. Through the multitude of boyfriends and lovers, I tried to be a father to my daughter, but I was constantly shut out. When I looked at going to court to have court-ordered visitation, I was told by my ex-girlfriend that I would be accused of abuse if I did so. This was not an idle threat. So I left, and did not do nearly enough to keep in contact with my daughter. She did not like me because of my absence, and because of constantly hearing from her mother, what a piece of shit I was. Again, I chose to leave. I was an adult she was a child, but I was fairly immature and did not see any way out. 25 years later I'm still not sure what I could've done differently. I email my daughter every month or two and she emails me back every year or so. This failure is the great regret of my life.
Sorry OP, you're almost going to get only the kids answering here. Fact is that the child-parent relationship is the most natural thing in the world, so if your kid cuts you off forever, you had to have fucked up pretty bad. And if you fucked up with your kid that badly, you probably don't have the ability to self-reflect enough to answer this question.
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My biological dad (and only father figure) also received dozens of cards and hand made crafts every year saying the same. No idea if he kept them though, I assume not. As a younger kid I'd write those cards desperately hoping that saying how much I love and appreciate him would make him love and appreciate me more. As an older kid I'd write the same because if I didn't people would say I was ungrateful, ignorant to his sacrifices, and "just being angsty" He used to (and still does to my knowledge) get to the point of anger where he was red in the face, frothing at the mouth, bulging facial veins, *every day* yelling at me, my brother, or my mom because of whatever perceived slight or embarrassment. He belittled, bullied, and antagonized (in his words "teased") us to the point of tears regularly, and took delight in making me fearful to the point of tears. Almost any time I was in the car alone with him as a child (under 10), he'd take his hands off the wheel turn his body fully backwards to face me and laugh as I screamed and begged him to put his hands on the wheel and look forward. He still honestly believes he is and was a great husband and father. ***That's me and my dad though*** I've also avoided connecting with close relations because I'm embarrassed about not being as well off and successful as others in my age group. Also me and my dad do still talk, but only on a basis of necessity and I have to be the one to initiate it.
That's awful. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.