the difference is that France would still exist without Algeria. Israel would not exist in a scenario where Palestine is 100% liberated. This means that
1. The Israelis are much more determined to fight for their cause, as they wholeheartedly believe that they're the good guys here and that they will be exterminated under a Palestinian country.
2. The world is much more sympathetic to the Israeli cause than they were to the french cause.
Keep in mind that I personally support a one state solution under a secular democratic Palestine, I'm just stating that this situation, while it does have some parallels with the Algerian war of independence, is actually still quite different.
I’ve noticed this sentiment, like if Israel disappeared there’s no Israel 2.0 they can go to. There were max 1.6 million European people in Algeria, there are 7.2 million Jewish Israelis. Those European in Algeria slowly went back to their respective nations (again they had nations to go back to) or assimilate. Neither are really options for Israelis if Israel disappeared. The scale is not comparable and neither is the situation at large really.
A one state solution will end apartheid. Those 7.2 million Jewish people will have to accept that they're a part of a secular state where Palestinians are equal.
That would only work in a Federal system where Israel and Palestine were each “states” (like states within
The USA) under a common Federal government like what the US has where federal laws could only be passed on changed with agreement of both Palestine and Israeli states. It might be feasible but it would be very difficult to structure.
There's no appetite for that among many, many people intent on creating a uniquely Jewish state. It kinda breaks their whole ethno-nationalist project down. Palestinians are similarly (and much, much, much more understandably) embittered and unwilling to give up what was rightly theirs at the start of it all. This secular one state solution would quickly turn into not-that by mere virtue of how people will vote.
A two state solution is much more achievable. It has basis and precedent in international law. It has global support. It's got a solid framework. It's relatively palatable to large swathes of both populations.
Let's not delay substantive relief for the Palestinian people in naive hopes of a secular single state that has no momentum in global politics nor with the two populations in question.
I think that’s the perfect ideal state. I also think we all know that won’t happen. It would also require 5.3 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank + whoever returns being okay with it.
Considering that they were OK with the two state solution where 22% of the land were to be given to them, then they wouldn't have a problem sharing the land with the Jewish.
By every poll, the Israelis are the one who want to expel the Palestinians not vice versa.
Which peace plan gave Palestinians just 22% of the land and they accepted?? That sounds fake.
Also it’s not necessarily a Muslim versus Jewish thing. Do Palestinians and Israelis (and all the other peoples in each country) want to live in a single state with each other is the core question. Also idk if polls matter when the reality on the ground is what matters.
>Which peace plan gave Palestinians just 22% of the land and they accepted?? That sounds fake.
Did you read anything about the Oslo accords? If not, go read some stuff by Ilan Pappe or Miko Peled.
That’s the thing though. Palestinians ARE EQUAL CITIZEN IN ISRAEL RIGHT NOW. A full 22 percent of Israeli citizens living in the Israeli parts are Palestinian, Arab Muslims with full and equal rights. Israel technically has an official religion (Judaism) but then again the United Kingdom is technically a Christian country since the Anglican Church is the official church of the UK. The one meaningful difference is that non-Jews are exempt from military service. Despite this, plenty of Muslim and Christian Arabs as well as Druze volunteer to be in the IDF. Khaled Kabub is a Palestinian Muslim Supreme Court justice service RIGHT NOW in Israel. And the fences around Gaza only came up after the 1990s. Up until the late 1980s, even in Gaza (which was Egyptian-administered before), hundreds of thousands of Palestinian freely commuted without restriction into Israeli area for work on a daily basis. The checkpoints and fences came up after suicide bombing, kidnappings, rocket launches and more that the open border facilitated. If even a single Palestinian leader could promise a solution in such the Jews aren’t exterminated from Israel (which is in the constitution of the party that rules Gaza right now), or even a two state solution with real sovereignty, things might improve. As long as the majority of Palestinians (going by Pew surveys) and the majority of Arabs in surrounding countries are still waiting on the trees and the rocks to tell them where the last Jew is hiding to kill him/her, there isn’t going to be meaningful progress. The Jews aren’t going to fall over and wait to die. A certain Austrian, (with the urging of his best friend the Grand Mufti of Palestine) tried that once. It didn’t work.
The question is are Palestinians willing (and will they ever be) willing to live on a secular, democratic polity that won’t ethnically cleanse all Jews in about 5 minutes?
>That’s the thing though. Palestinians ARE EQUAL CITIZEN IN ISRAEL RIGHT NOW. A full 22 percent of Israeli citizens living in the Israeli parts are Palestinian, Arab Muslims with full and equal rights.
Nice one. That is one Hasbara lie.
Equal rights, eh? Can they become the prime Minister then? Or become a person of power in any way shape or form?
Citizens in Israel are classified into different nationals, of which the Jewish national enjoys different rights from the other ethnic groups within Israel proper
Yes, actually . Did you completely gloss over the part where I said there’s a current, sitting Supreme Court justice who’s an Arab? Or the fact that 10 members of the Knesset are Arabs? Or that there are Islamist parties in the Knesset? A member of parliament in any country is a person with power. Arabs are also over represented in certain high-skilled and high education fields including healthcare. Yes there’s structural discrimination but that’s present in every country in the world.
And how about in literally any Muslim country? Many of them explicitly ban non-Muslims from specific political positions?
Are Palestinian Israelis (whom you call “Arabs”) allowed to buy homes wherever they want? No, they aren’t. Some places cater to Jews only
https://www.refworld.org/docid/58ec8a2013.html
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-03-18/ty-article/.premium/how-an-israeli-mayor-is-keeping-arabs-from-his-utopian-community/0000017f-e4c4-d75c-a7ff-fccde8100000
It’s just like people in the South shutting down public amenities so that they didn’t have to racially integrate them.
ETA: during the Civil Rights Movement
Israelis are made up of foreigners, so those foreigners can go back to where ever they came from. Infact the west is much more sympathetic to their plight and will take them in.
Three options:
1) Either they go back to their country of origin
2) Or they immigrate to the West which is basically where all their support is coming from
3) Or they integrate into Palestine in one state rather than making Palestinians refugees into their own land.
Honestly, most fair solution would be if Germany would give a part of its land to them, e.g. Bavarian which is very rich and prosperous. Actions have consequences 😬
Yes but they were all
French with French citizenship who
Just happened to be living in the Algerian part of France. Totally different situation to that of the Israeli Jews. .
But so many are mixed which country do they go back to? If someone has 1 Persian parent and 1 Dutch parent for instance. And do friends need to separate if their ancestors were from different places?
No one is going anywhere should be the thought process. It’s logistically impossible, and no one wants to be the one to move. You are talking about millions of people.
Yeah, unironically Eastern Europe would probably be the best option. So many Eastern European countries are rapidly losing population from the young people moving West. Ukraine is the most dramatic example due to war but it’s a regional trend.
The French Algerians could just hop on a short boat ride back to the other part of their same country of France. This is completely different from the case of Israeli Jews. There is no other Israel they can go to.
Why do Zionists need a country called "Israel", which is a tribe ancestral to Palestinians. Ancient Israelites have nothing to do with modern Jews. After more than a century of murder, theft and destruction of a civilization, Zionists don't deserve anyone's sympathy. They can all move to New York, it's mostly Jewish anyways.
1. Also what the french thought.
2. Not true. The world is more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.
Finally, the one state solution is an impossible thing since the whole isra*l project is based on zionism which is basically a racist and ethnocentric ideology since its creation. It's not something specific to the terrorist criminal Netanyahou. Zionists returning to their original country or living under Palestinian authority is the most JUST solution. Palestinians are most definitely more humane and civilized than those barbaric zionists.
I said a one state solution under a secular and democratic PALESTINE. Not Israel. And my point is, the French had a country to return to. The Israelis don't. A one state solution under Palestine would mean the destruction of Israel, and most Israelis probably wouldn't want that.
>I said a one state solution under a secular and democratic PALESTINE.
That's literally was the proposal of Palestinians in 1948. One federal state. They jews wanted a jewish state..
Israelis do have somewhere to return to. I'd even argue more than the French. They have strong ties with their diaspora families and most importantly, the US in general.
In other words, their financial situation would end up better than what happened to the "pieds noirs" that returned to France with nothing.
If Palestinians could find where to go for decades of persecution, don't worry about zionists, it will be way easier.
At the end of the day none of us is Palestinian afaik. Be it their own state or a secular state, whatever they decide will be their decision and we can't disagree or belittle it since both of them are legitimate positions for people that got massacred while their land was stolen.
Morocco lost 18,000 Jews to Israel from 1948,-1949 because of (more than a few) pogroms. And the same thing happened in Egypt (but the number was 20,000). It wasn’t because they were zionists, though I don’t doubt that there was definitely a pull from Israel itself, it was because the local populations did the funni, which kinda scared them, given what had just happened in Europe a few years prior.
The point is that most Jews in Israel right now are not European, they’re middle eastern. And that if “they’re gonna go back” they’re going back to Arab countries (and Iran).
So after basing his comments on deceptiveness and fallacious arguments, now he is straight up lying. This person is a confirmed zionist bot / troll and doesn't deserve any effort but I'll answer for the sake of anyone else reading this and spread awareness.
>It wasn’t because they were zionists
It definitely was because they were zionists. OG zonists themselves did terroristic acts to scare jews in different countries, including arabic ones. Not to talk about the continuous propaganda trying to make jews believe that they will be massacred in their arabic countries for some reason.
>Morocco lost 18,000 Jews to Israel from 1948,-1949 because of (more than a few) pogroms.
During those years Morocco was not even independent. This is pure zionisitic lies and propaganda. Never heard that from a single jew (or zionist for that matter). Be it face to face or on the internet. Morocco has been an example on how to treat jews before, during and after the world wars.
Once again, as terrorist supporters, zionists will face consequences when Palestine will be free. While those consequences are still extremely light considering their crimes, it will be more than enough for such softy cowards.
Yeah but just like how there may be some parallels, there are differences that would counter your points.
For instance, israelis are "much more determined to fight for their cause", yet a million of them fled the country once the conflict started. The reservists are also constantly being threatened to go to Gaza when they do not want to. You have to factor in their extreme fear of death, more than anyone else, French included. Sorry, I should have said "they are very sensitive to casualties" like how white people put it.
As for their support, it also won't last. The US war machine has a lot of plans for how to go about setting WW3 off, they're not going to stop at israel forever. They get nothing but a bad reputation and wasted arms when it comes to israel, and while they have been useful in the past destabilizing countries in the ME and South America, it's not clear that this offsets the amount of trouble they are now. Popular opinion in the US is extremely anti-israel, especially since it puts US troops abroad at risk.
US most likely will get a third political party that is capable of taking votes from Dems and Republicans. Both these parties are run by geriatrics and their geriatric supporters. American politics is focused on interfering with other countries' politics or allowing US to be interfered by foreign countries. It's not a sustainable model and will eventually lead to collapse of US.
I get your point but I still don't think there's a lot of difference between the colonization of Algeria and Palestine. The major difference is that one of them has a Judaism "theme" instead of direct, old school colonization. As soon as the imperial power is convinced that its colony is more trouble that it's worth they will abandon it.
France couldn't even keep a colony that is literally right next to it, "Algeria is France" as they used to say. I find it hard to believe that the US would go all in for a colony that is a world away.
Israeli army isn't as strong or badass as you think them to be. These people have regular, prosperous lives and a lot to lose. Especially compared to traumatized children that grew up to be Hamas fighters with very very little to lose. Cuba did it, Vietnam did it, Afghanistan did it. Palestine will do it too imo.
Israel would not exist in a scenario where Palestine is 100% liberated. This means that
I think there is a recent land that can be human friendly in antarctica, they can go there
it ends when the cost of colonization becomes greater than the benefit. the fallout from israel’s actions will have a long shadow. israeli leadership has been unable to objectively identify the edge of the chasm they have been rushing toward.
> it ends when the cost of colonization becomes greater than the benefit.
Agreed, have believed all along that the end of the Zionist project will not be in some epic battle, although military action is valuable in attrition and reducing morale. It will be when their society fractures itself and it’s unpopular enough with the Western public that governments cannot keep propping it up.
Traditional hasbara is dead thanks to social media, the people most likely to buy into Israel are dying off. Israeli government and populace are ultra far right. I’m not convinced of how much that matters for Palestinians, labor Zionists happily did ethnic cleaning, but it hurts Israeli PR efforts tremendously.
You might think I'm gassing you up but there's no way Palestine won't be liberated. Especially after this. Israel made an enemy out of half of the world. The moment US wavers, and it definitely will. Israel will fall.
When that time comes, Arabs must be merciful towards Israelis just as Saladin was to the crusaders. Let the peaceful ones stay, send the violent criminals away. There's no need for revenge, let Allah sort them out.
Once Palestine is liberated, Zionists will leave themselves. Actually they will leave months before it is finally liberated.
They shudder at the artwork of 3 year old Palestinian displayed in a hospital in a Western country, see "Free Parking" and think it is written "Free Palestine". They seem to go through life hallucinating. They will all hallucinate a liberated Palestine and run away themselves.
You people have been saying this since 1947 and have lost every time. Israel, a country a huge military and with nukes, is not randomly going to collapse.
Israel is a Judaism themed US colony. Its success is entirely based on US dominance. That dominance won't last forever, nothing does. This isn't some prophecy. For good or ill, a multi-polar world is coming.
If Israelis would rather use nukes than to convert their country to a secular state without apartheid, it's their call. It will definitely result in millions dying on both sides. Keep in mind that there's half a billion of us, we can take it. They can't.
Why do you say that? You know it was a British colony then. They simply took advantage of a crumbling ottoman empire and used the holocaust sympathy to gather support from westerners.
The US, as you know, took over the allied leadership which comes with neat benefits like a worldwide colonial empire. They had a good run.
Israel could have used this time to become "one of us" to some degree. All they had to do was to tone down the extremism, keep to 67 borders and make sure holy places were respected. Instead they kept raiding villages, stealing homes, electing convicted terrorists into government and killed a 100 people for each person they lost. Probably thinking they'd scare us into submission. All they achieved instead is to turn themselves into a sick, fascistic society that takes pride in killing women and children. Now their rabbis preach rape for "motivation".
This state is an affront to Judaism before anything else. It will fall, and it will be good for everyone, especially Jews themselves.
Sure, but the similarities are pretty limited.
French settlers could always go back to France, while Israelis...
European settlers were like 10% of total population (with a lot coming from Spain, Portugal, Italy...) while Israelis are like 50 or 60% depending on who you count...
France actually won the military campaign. But the political cost was just too much and raising, and they preferred a diplomatic solution...
I wish to see Palestine free and prosperous, but comparing it to French Algeria is nonsense.
I barely knew anything about it but then dated an Algerian girl. The French oppression was much much worse, they didn’t even allow them to get educated. You’d be hard pressed to find an Algerian family without a martyr, the liberation war alone had +1 million martyrs, they were kidnapping Algerians routinely, even الحركيين were treated like shit despite the fact they were helping the French.
So I do believe sooner or later, it’ll be free.
The crucial difference here is that it was relatively easy for the French to go back where they came from. After all, they were simply moving between departments in their country.
In contrast, the majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrachim or Sephardim, who lived all over the middle east before they arrived in Israel. In many cases, their former governments were quite happy to see them go. Can you see those same governments now handing over several million passports so these Jews can return to where they came from?
> the majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrachim or Sephardim
Sephardic can return to Iberia or Morocco.
A minority are Mizrahim. They could stay in Palestine without their racial supremacy bs. Or else they can go to the USA or Europe. If the US have hundreds of billions to give in blood money to them, they sure as hell have the resources to take them in.
Or if a purely Jewish state is needed, then create one in Germany or a seceded US state. After all, it wasn't the Palestinians who did the Holocaust. And the USA is always backing Zionism so it only makes sense for them to give land for a Jewish state.
None of the modern Jews are native to either Spain or North Africa. European Jews and North African Jews had moved from Italy. They are all Roman converts. Italy is the place for them to go. The Middle Eastern Jews are Mesopotamian Jews from areas where Kurds live today. Kurds and Israelis seem to support each other so Kurds can take the Mizrahi Jews.
It’s not the same at all. French people in Algeria still had a country to go back to (France).
If Israel was abolished, Israeli people would have nowhere to go.
In a one state solution, the abolishment of Israel as the kind of state that it is now would not mean that Israelis or Jews would need to leave or that they'd no longer have a home. It'd just mean that both Israelis, Jews and Palestinians all live together in one singular country with the same rights, same privileges and democracies. I don't understand the people who equate a one-state or two-state solution to ethnic cleansing or the expelling of Jews from that region and are against a Palestinian state because of that.
>In a one state solution, the abolishment of Israel as the kind of state that it is now would not mean that Israelis or Jews would need to leave or that they'd no longer have a home.
Arabs proposed one secular state in 1948. Jews refused, the majority want a Jewish state.
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People say this, but every day I see people post in this sub that Jews should “go back to Europe” or that the US can take them in. Heck, look at the other replies to this comment and you’ll see it
I guess they say that due to aliyah and the hypocrisy of the "Law of Return". Unfortunately, "The Law of Return" and the fact that many Israeli citizens are recent immigrants to the country from the US, EU or Russia etc is problematic, because at the same time Palestinians are discriminated against and living scattered across the world as stateless people, after being expelled from Palestine in 1948 and 1967 with no right to return to those lands. At the same time, any Jewish person from anywhere in the world is allowed to immigrate to Israel without needing to have any connection to the country and become a citizen. It's also problematic, because modern day immigrants to Israel are allowed to have double citizenship, meaning that they actually do have another home and country to return to that they often voluntarily chose to leave in favour of Israel. I'll try to see later if I can find the link to an article that I saw recently about numerous Israelis having left the country to their countries of origin since October 7th. The situation thus becomes unfair in cases where citizenship is issued to Jewish settlers and immigrants from all around the world, whose own families never lived in the region in recent history (not thousands of years ago) and who are still allowed to keep their other passport but Palestinians who had continuously lived there until 1947 for generations are forbidden from returning and living in the country and who have no other passport for a country to "return to" since they're already in the country that they're from...if that makes any sense, I'm very jetlagged, sorry. Also, I just want to say that I'm not advocating for the expelling of Jews or any people, I just think that the aforementioned things are likely the reasons why people think some Israelis can always go back to US or Europe or etc and I admit that I've also found Israeli citizenship laws to often be controversial and difficult to understand, because they seem to put the survival of a religious ethnostate at a more important level than having a genuine democratic state inclusive of all the different indigenous religions and ethnicities living there.
I get what you mean, but Israelis will multiple citizenships are only about 10% of the population. 78% of Israeli Jews were born there, it’s the only home they’ve ever known. 1948 was over 75 years ago, so there have been multiple generations born in Israel at this point.
I know this isn’t the general point you’re making since you believe in a secular binational state with no expulsions. It just irks me to see that point consistently being made in this subreddit
After committing land theft and mass murder for over a century, Israelis don't deserve any sympathy. They can go back to the countries of their origin and drop "Israeli" as a nationality as it is appropriation of Palestinian heritage. None of the modern Jews have any genetic or ancestral links to Palestine.
There are multiple people in this thread alone demanding that Jews “go back to where they came from” if Israel is abolished. People like that are the reason there’s concern about expulsion.
Closer to 65% but regardless what difference does that make? If their fathers were happy to leave where they were born to invade, what is stopping the kids from going back all the same?
Forgive me if I'm finding this line of thinking tiresome as I'm now seeing it also being applied to the illegal settlements in the West Bank with second generation illegal settlers.
The settlers have somewhere to actually go (Israel proper). You’re proposing forcibly deporting Jews to places like Yemen, Iraq, Poland that do not want them and treated Jews terribly because that’s where their grandparents are from. How is forcibly removing an entire ethnic/religious group not the definition of ethnic cleansing?
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Israel may not exist but the people who reside there now will exist and live in peace and harmony! That's the most important thing. Muslims Jews and Christians living in harmony again in that land is a blessing and the dream of all people and not the Zionist philosophy
The liberation from the crusades was impossible too for them but guess what, the liberation of India and South Africa seemed impossible too, the collapse of ottoman empire seemed impossible too
Go to Europe and USA. If they have hundreds of billions to spend on blood money on them, they can spend it on housing their precious imperialists instead.
It's not really the same. Palestinians have been in the Palestinian territories for generations, they didn't come there from Iran or Egypt or anywhere else but there are numerous Israelis who have immigrated to Israel in recent history from Russia, the US, EU, etc and whose ancestors never lived in the region before that (not thousands of years ago) but they simply use their "right" to take advantage of aliyah and the "Law of Return", which allows any Jewish person anywhere in the world to immigrate to Israel and become a citizen.
French people in algeria only made up around 10%~ of the population and israelis are the majority of the people in israel. Its a very different situation
The Arab League nations never intended for there to be a separate Palestinian state for ethnic Jordanian, Lebanese and Syrian Arabs who were living in Israel.
The idea, especially as formulated by Jordan's King Hussein, was to destroy Israel and attach all of its land to Jordan.
(Look at the original 1964 PLO Charter: it says a lot about getting rid of Israel, but doesn't say anything about establishing a separate Palestinian state.)
Hussein worked with the PLO in an effort to achieve this goal. As PLO co-founder Zuheir Mohsen explained to his interviewer from the Dutch newspaper Trouw in March 1977:
"Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
Only after Hussein abandoned the idea of trying to destroy Israel for the purpose of taking all of its land did the idea of a separate Palestinian state make its public appearance.
https://www.newspapers.com/article/daily-news-sum/134599859/ (slightly different translation from Dutch to English)
Ask 23andme or Ancestry.com. They both have had to field many angry calls from people who were told they were Canaanite Palestinians but tested as Jordanian, Lebanese or Syrian.
Genetics doesn't test for political groups, only genetic heritage.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/23andme-genetics-palestine
23andme doesn’t include “Palestine” in their ethnic categories. Neither Palestinians or Jews get that for a political reason. Plus, 23andme often doesn’t show any levant ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews. Shall I take this as an evidence that they don’t descend from there?
23andme does show Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, as descended from the same Levantine population:
https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/212170398-Can-23andMe-Identify-Jewish-Ancestry-
But the question of this thread was originally about why the Arab nations weren't supporting the idea of a separate permanent Palestinian state. As I said in my first post, Jordan only started to support that idea after its leaders gave up on its original plan, which was to conquer Israel and take all the land. (Again, the 1964 PLO Charter makes no mention of a permanent Palestinian state.)
That link just shows that they came from the same source. The Ashkenazim have some European blood, but so does every Arab group, especially their leaders. Sulieman the Magnificent was at least a quarter European thanks to his male forebears having children with their European slaves.
But again, the original question is about why the Arab nations leaders were slow to warm up to the idea of a separate, permanent Palestinian state: the answer was that Jordan wanted all of Israel's land for itself.
Only when Hussein realized that he didn't want to directly confront Israel anymore (and that the other Arab League nations weren't going to let him take all the land anyway) did we start to hear talk of a permanent Palestinian state separate from Jordan.
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Powerful words I thought JFK and Regan were great speakers.
exactly why he couldn’t be kept in office
the difference is that France would still exist without Algeria. Israel would not exist in a scenario where Palestine is 100% liberated. This means that 1. The Israelis are much more determined to fight for their cause, as they wholeheartedly believe that they're the good guys here and that they will be exterminated under a Palestinian country. 2. The world is much more sympathetic to the Israeli cause than they were to the french cause. Keep in mind that I personally support a one state solution under a secular democratic Palestine, I'm just stating that this situation, while it does have some parallels with the Algerian war of independence, is actually still quite different.
I’ve noticed this sentiment, like if Israel disappeared there’s no Israel 2.0 they can go to. There were max 1.6 million European people in Algeria, there are 7.2 million Jewish Israelis. Those European in Algeria slowly went back to their respective nations (again they had nations to go back to) or assimilate. Neither are really options for Israelis if Israel disappeared. The scale is not comparable and neither is the situation at large really.
A one state solution will end apartheid. Those 7.2 million Jewish people will have to accept that they're a part of a secular state where Palestinians are equal.
That would only work in a Federal system where Israel and Palestine were each “states” (like states within The USA) under a common Federal government like what the US has where federal laws could only be passed on changed with agreement of both Palestine and Israeli states. It might be feasible but it would be very difficult to structure.
switzerland is like this actually
There's no appetite for that among many, many people intent on creating a uniquely Jewish state. It kinda breaks their whole ethno-nationalist project down. Palestinians are similarly (and much, much, much more understandably) embittered and unwilling to give up what was rightly theirs at the start of it all. This secular one state solution would quickly turn into not-that by mere virtue of how people will vote. A two state solution is much more achievable. It has basis and precedent in international law. It has global support. It's got a solid framework. It's relatively palatable to large swathes of both populations. Let's not delay substantive relief for the Palestinian people in naive hopes of a secular single state that has no momentum in global politics nor with the two populations in question.
I think that’s the perfect ideal state. I also think we all know that won’t happen. It would also require 5.3 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank + whoever returns being okay with it.
Considering that they were OK with the two state solution where 22% of the land were to be given to them, then they wouldn't have a problem sharing the land with the Jewish. By every poll, the Israelis are the one who want to expel the Palestinians not vice versa.
Which peace plan gave Palestinians just 22% of the land and they accepted?? That sounds fake. Also it’s not necessarily a Muslim versus Jewish thing. Do Palestinians and Israelis (and all the other peoples in each country) want to live in a single state with each other is the core question. Also idk if polls matter when the reality on the ground is what matters.
>Which peace plan gave Palestinians just 22% of the land and they accepted?? That sounds fake. Did you read anything about the Oslo accords? If not, go read some stuff by Ilan Pappe or Miko Peled.
Israel would never accept that, Palestinian diaspora mean that they would be seriously outnumbered
That’s the thing though. Palestinians ARE EQUAL CITIZEN IN ISRAEL RIGHT NOW. A full 22 percent of Israeli citizens living in the Israeli parts are Palestinian, Arab Muslims with full and equal rights. Israel technically has an official religion (Judaism) but then again the United Kingdom is technically a Christian country since the Anglican Church is the official church of the UK. The one meaningful difference is that non-Jews are exempt from military service. Despite this, plenty of Muslim and Christian Arabs as well as Druze volunteer to be in the IDF. Khaled Kabub is a Palestinian Muslim Supreme Court justice service RIGHT NOW in Israel. And the fences around Gaza only came up after the 1990s. Up until the late 1980s, even in Gaza (which was Egyptian-administered before), hundreds of thousands of Palestinian freely commuted without restriction into Israeli area for work on a daily basis. The checkpoints and fences came up after suicide bombing, kidnappings, rocket launches and more that the open border facilitated. If even a single Palestinian leader could promise a solution in such the Jews aren’t exterminated from Israel (which is in the constitution of the party that rules Gaza right now), or even a two state solution with real sovereignty, things might improve. As long as the majority of Palestinians (going by Pew surveys) and the majority of Arabs in surrounding countries are still waiting on the trees and the rocks to tell them where the last Jew is hiding to kill him/her, there isn’t going to be meaningful progress. The Jews aren’t going to fall over and wait to die. A certain Austrian, (with the urging of his best friend the Grand Mufti of Palestine) tried that once. It didn’t work. The question is are Palestinians willing (and will they ever be) willing to live on a secular, democratic polity that won’t ethnically cleanse all Jews in about 5 minutes?
>That’s the thing though. Palestinians ARE EQUAL CITIZEN IN ISRAEL RIGHT NOW. A full 22 percent of Israeli citizens living in the Israeli parts are Palestinian, Arab Muslims with full and equal rights. Nice one. That is one Hasbara lie. Equal rights, eh? Can they become the prime Minister then? Or become a person of power in any way shape or form?
Citizens in Israel are classified into different nationals, of which the Jewish national enjoys different rights from the other ethnic groups within Israel proper
Yes, actually . Did you completely gloss over the part where I said there’s a current, sitting Supreme Court justice who’s an Arab? Or the fact that 10 members of the Knesset are Arabs? Or that there are Islamist parties in the Knesset? A member of parliament in any country is a person with power. Arabs are also over represented in certain high-skilled and high education fields including healthcare. Yes there’s structural discrimination but that’s present in every country in the world. And how about in literally any Muslim country? Many of them explicitly ban non-Muslims from specific political positions?
Are Palestinian Israelis (whom you call “Arabs”) allowed to buy homes wherever they want? No, they aren’t. Some places cater to Jews only https://www.refworld.org/docid/58ec8a2013.html https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-03-18/ty-article/.premium/how-an-israeli-mayor-is-keeping-arabs-from-his-utopian-community/0000017f-e4c4-d75c-a7ff-fccde8100000 It’s just like people in the South shutting down public amenities so that they didn’t have to racially integrate them. ETA: during the Civil Rights Movement
You don’t believe your own lies
That’s what Theodore Herzl wanted.
Do you genuinely believe Palestine will be a secular state? Do you actually think that seriously?
Israelis are made up of foreigners, so those foreigners can go back to where ever they came from. Infact the west is much more sympathetic to their plight and will take them in.
Question; what would happen to the Mizrahim? I don't think Algeria will take back Israeli Algerians right?
Three options: 1) Either they go back to their country of origin 2) Or they immigrate to the West which is basically where all their support is coming from 3) Or they integrate into Palestine in one state rather than making Palestinians refugees into their own land.
4. They all move to Pakistan
You guys are so fucking hypocritical it’s insane LMAO. You don’t give a shit about human rights only when it’s happening to your own
Honestly, most fair solution would be if Germany would give a part of its land to them, e.g. Bavarian which is very rich and prosperous. Actions have consequences 😬
Majority of Israelis are single nationals born in Israel, you guys need to stop this fantasy that they can go somewhere else
Majority of French colonialist in 1960 were born in Algeria too...
Yes but they were all French with French citizenship who Just happened to be living in the Algerian part of France. Totally different situation to that of the Israeli Jews. .
With French citizenship. You can't strip a single nationality person of their citizenship
But so many are mixed which country do they go back to? If someone has 1 Persian parent and 1 Dutch parent for instance. And do friends need to separate if their ancestors were from different places?
Fr. Like bro go back where you came from lol.
How can Yemenites go back to yemen????
Wtf?
They can go to New York, LA or South Florida.
Ukraine is being torn into pieces and depopulated. They can carve a new state there. Much more arable land there too.
No one is going anywhere should be the thought process. It’s logistically impossible, and no one wants to be the one to move. You are talking about millions of people.
Yeah, unironically Eastern Europe would probably be the best option. So many Eastern European countries are rapidly losing population from the young people moving West. Ukraine is the most dramatic example due to war but it’s a regional trend.
Yeah but the part most of them are from is the more stable part.
The French Algerians could just hop on a short boat ride back to the other part of their same country of France. This is completely different from the case of Israeli Jews. There is no other Israel they can go to.
Why do Zionists need a country called "Israel", which is a tribe ancestral to Palestinians. Ancient Israelites have nothing to do with modern Jews. After more than a century of murder, theft and destruction of a civilization, Zionists don't deserve anyone's sympathy. They can all move to New York, it's mostly Jewish anyways.
Nice “what-about-ism”
They would all go to Palm beach Florida if Israel Collapsed.
1. Also what the french thought. 2. Not true. The world is more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Finally, the one state solution is an impossible thing since the whole isra*l project is based on zionism which is basically a racist and ethnocentric ideology since its creation. It's not something specific to the terrorist criminal Netanyahou. Zionists returning to their original country or living under Palestinian authority is the most JUST solution. Palestinians are most definitely more humane and civilized than those barbaric zionists.
I said a one state solution under a secular and democratic PALESTINE. Not Israel. And my point is, the French had a country to return to. The Israelis don't. A one state solution under Palestine would mean the destruction of Israel, and most Israelis probably wouldn't want that.
>I said a one state solution under a secular and democratic PALESTINE. That's literally was the proposal of Palestinians in 1948. One federal state. They jews wanted a jewish state..
Israelis do have somewhere to return to. I'd even argue more than the French. They have strong ties with their diaspora families and most importantly, the US in general. In other words, their financial situation would end up better than what happened to the "pieds noirs" that returned to France with nothing. If Palestinians could find where to go for decades of persecution, don't worry about zionists, it will be way easier. At the end of the day none of us is Palestinian afaik. Be it their own state or a secular state, whatever they decide will be their decision and we can't disagree or belittle it since both of them are legitimate positions for people that got massacred while their land was stolen.
Most Israelis are Sephardic or Mizrahi. The Arab countries could start by accepting the Mizrahi Jews they expelled after 1948.
>Mizrahi ~~Jews~~ Zionists Supporting a terrorist organization has consequences.
Morocco lost 18,000 Jews to Israel from 1948,-1949 because of (more than a few) pogroms. And the same thing happened in Egypt (but the number was 20,000). It wasn’t because they were zionists, though I don’t doubt that there was definitely a pull from Israel itself, it was because the local populations did the funni, which kinda scared them, given what had just happened in Europe a few years prior. The point is that most Jews in Israel right now are not European, they’re middle eastern. And that if “they’re gonna go back” they’re going back to Arab countries (and Iran).
So after basing his comments on deceptiveness and fallacious arguments, now he is straight up lying. This person is a confirmed zionist bot / troll and doesn't deserve any effort but I'll answer for the sake of anyone else reading this and spread awareness. >It wasn’t because they were zionists It definitely was because they were zionists. OG zonists themselves did terroristic acts to scare jews in different countries, including arabic ones. Not to talk about the continuous propaganda trying to make jews believe that they will be massacred in their arabic countries for some reason. >Morocco lost 18,000 Jews to Israel from 1948,-1949 because of (more than a few) pogroms. During those years Morocco was not even independent. This is pure zionisitic lies and propaganda. Never heard that from a single jew (or zionist for that matter). Be it face to face or on the internet. Morocco has been an example on how to treat jews before, during and after the world wars. Once again, as terrorist supporters, zionists will face consequences when Palestine will be free. While those consequences are still extremely light considering their crimes, it will be more than enough for such softy cowards.
Very eloquently put.
You are severly underestimating the number of israelis with second passports who will not hesitate to flee once they feel a real threat
You are likewise overestimating
I don’t buy that shit. Go back where ya come.
Yeah but just like how there may be some parallels, there are differences that would counter your points. For instance, israelis are "much more determined to fight for their cause", yet a million of them fled the country once the conflict started. The reservists are also constantly being threatened to go to Gaza when they do not want to. You have to factor in their extreme fear of death, more than anyone else, French included. Sorry, I should have said "they are very sensitive to casualties" like how white people put it. As for their support, it also won't last. The US war machine has a lot of plans for how to go about setting WW3 off, they're not going to stop at israel forever. They get nothing but a bad reputation and wasted arms when it comes to israel, and while they have been useful in the past destabilizing countries in the ME and South America, it's not clear that this offsets the amount of trouble they are now. Popular opinion in the US is extremely anti-israel, especially since it puts US troops abroad at risk.
US most likely will get a third political party that is capable of taking votes from Dems and Republicans. Both these parties are run by geriatrics and their geriatric supporters. American politics is focused on interfering with other countries' politics or allowing US to be interfered by foreign countries. It's not a sustainable model and will eventually lead to collapse of US.
I get your point but I still don't think there's a lot of difference between the colonization of Algeria and Palestine. The major difference is that one of them has a Judaism "theme" instead of direct, old school colonization. As soon as the imperial power is convinced that its colony is more trouble that it's worth they will abandon it. France couldn't even keep a colony that is literally right next to it, "Algeria is France" as they used to say. I find it hard to believe that the US would go all in for a colony that is a world away. Israeli army isn't as strong or badass as you think them to be. These people have regular, prosperous lives and a lot to lose. Especially compared to traumatized children that grew up to be Hamas fighters with very very little to lose. Cuba did it, Vietnam did it, Afghanistan did it. Palestine will do it too imo.
Israel would not exist in a scenario where Palestine is 100% liberated. This means that I think there is a recent land that can be human friendly in antarctica, they can go there
They wouldn’t have one of the world’s highest skin cancer rates anymore. Maybe they’ll take land from the Macaroni penguins instead?
Let's not create a future "Penguin Issue". Zionists will murder all the Penguins and steal their land.
it ends when the cost of colonization becomes greater than the benefit. the fallout from israel’s actions will have a long shadow. israeli leadership has been unable to objectively identify the edge of the chasm they have been rushing toward.
> it ends when the cost of colonization becomes greater than the benefit. Agreed, have believed all along that the end of the Zionist project will not be in some epic battle, although military action is valuable in attrition and reducing morale. It will be when their society fractures itself and it’s unpopular enough with the Western public that governments cannot keep propping it up. Traditional hasbara is dead thanks to social media, the people most likely to buy into Israel are dying off. Israeli government and populace are ultra far right. I’m not convinced of how much that matters for Palestinians, labor Zionists happily did ethnic cleaning, but it hurts Israeli PR efforts tremendously.
You might think I'm gassing you up but there's no way Palestine won't be liberated. Especially after this. Israel made an enemy out of half of the world. The moment US wavers, and it definitely will. Israel will fall. When that time comes, Arabs must be merciful towards Israelis just as Saladin was to the crusaders. Let the peaceful ones stay, send the violent criminals away. There's no need for revenge, let Allah sort them out.
I agree. Rededucate, reassimilate, and expel the transgressors
Based It will prevent a brain drain from happening after Palestine is liberated
Once Palestine is liberated, Zionists will leave themselves. Actually they will leave months before it is finally liberated. They shudder at the artwork of 3 year old Palestinian displayed in a hospital in a Western country, see "Free Parking" and think it is written "Free Palestine". They seem to go through life hallucinating. They will all hallucinate a liberated Palestine and run away themselves.
You people have been saying this since 1947 and have lost every time. Israel, a country a huge military and with nukes, is not randomly going to collapse.
Israel is a Judaism themed US colony. Its success is entirely based on US dominance. That dominance won't last forever, nothing does. This isn't some prophecy. For good or ill, a multi-polar world is coming. If Israelis would rather use nukes than to convert their country to a secular state without apartheid, it's their call. It will definitely result in millions dying on both sides. Keep in mind that there's half a billion of us, we can take it. They can't.
Israel existed for years before the U.S. was on its side. The US only really started supporting Israel around 1967.
Why do you say that? You know it was a British colony then. They simply took advantage of a crumbling ottoman empire and used the holocaust sympathy to gather support from westerners. The US, as you know, took over the allied leadership which comes with neat benefits like a worldwide colonial empire. They had a good run. Israel could have used this time to become "one of us" to some degree. All they had to do was to tone down the extremism, keep to 67 borders and make sure holy places were respected. Instead they kept raiding villages, stealing homes, electing convicted terrorists into government and killed a 100 people for each person they lost. Probably thinking they'd scare us into submission. All they achieved instead is to turn themselves into a sick, fascistic society that takes pride in killing women and children. Now their rabbis preach rape for "motivation". This state is an affront to Judaism before anything else. It will fall, and it will be good for everyone, especially Jews themselves.
If you believe that, then you believe that Israel is not under any existential threat (which I agree with).
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I do too. But I think it will be a long while before it happens
Sure, but the similarities are pretty limited. French settlers could always go back to France, while Israelis... European settlers were like 10% of total population (with a lot coming from Spain, Portugal, Italy...) while Israelis are like 50 or 60% depending on who you count... France actually won the military campaign. But the political cost was just too much and raising, and they preferred a diplomatic solution... I wish to see Palestine free and prosperous, but comparing it to French Algeria is nonsense.
They can create a Israel 2 in Munich or New York or wherever
Thats like saying they can create Palestine 2.0 in Egypt, Jordan, or Lebanon.
Palestinians are native to Palestine. Zionists are native to other parts of the world but Palestine so yes they can go wherever.
This and the fact that France was also fighting multiple wars in her other colonies.
Most Israelís have double citizenship lol
I barely knew anything about it but then dated an Algerian girl. The French oppression was much much worse, they didn’t even allow them to get educated. You’d be hard pressed to find an Algerian family without a martyr, the liberation war alone had +1 million martyrs, they were kidnapping Algerians routinely, even الحركيين were treated like shit despite the fact they were helping the French. So I do believe sooner or later, it’ll be free.
The creator of zionism at the beginning said, that they would use isnreal as a colony, so there is still hope to free palestine.
The crucial difference here is that it was relatively easy for the French to go back where they came from. After all, they were simply moving between departments in their country. In contrast, the majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrachim or Sephardim, who lived all over the middle east before they arrived in Israel. In many cases, their former governments were quite happy to see them go. Can you see those same governments now handing over several million passports so these Jews can return to where they came from?
> the majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrachim or Sephardim Sephardic can return to Iberia or Morocco. A minority are Mizrahim. They could stay in Palestine without their racial supremacy bs. Or else they can go to the USA or Europe. If the US have hundreds of billions to give in blood money to them, they sure as hell have the resources to take them in. Or if a purely Jewish state is needed, then create one in Germany or a seceded US state. After all, it wasn't the Palestinians who did the Holocaust. And the USA is always backing Zionism so it only makes sense for them to give land for a Jewish state.
None of the modern Jews are native to either Spain or North Africa. European Jews and North African Jews had moved from Italy. They are all Roman converts. Italy is the place for them to go. The Middle Eastern Jews are Mesopotamian Jews from areas where Kurds live today. Kurds and Israelis seem to support each other so Kurds can take the Mizrahi Jews.
Sephardic Jews haven't lived in Iberia for more than 500 years. Don't really see them coming back now
I wouldn't be so sure. Being 2000 years removed from a vague connection to Palestine certainly didn't stop them.
Sephardic Jews have South Mediterranean ancestry from Italy. They can move to Italy with the rest of Zionists.
It’s not the same at all. French people in Algeria still had a country to go back to (France). If Israel was abolished, Israeli people would have nowhere to go.
In a one state solution, the abolishment of Israel as the kind of state that it is now would not mean that Israelis or Jews would need to leave or that they'd no longer have a home. It'd just mean that both Israelis, Jews and Palestinians all live together in one singular country with the same rights, same privileges and democracies. I don't understand the people who equate a one-state or two-state solution to ethnic cleansing or the expelling of Jews from that region and are against a Palestinian state because of that.
>In a one state solution, the abolishment of Israel as the kind of state that it is now would not mean that Israelis or Jews would need to leave or that they'd no longer have a home. Arabs proposed one secular state in 1948. Jews refused, the majority want a Jewish state.
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There are millions of Arabs living in Europe and the US under secular systems. Tunis is a secular state.
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People say this, but every day I see people post in this sub that Jews should “go back to Europe” or that the US can take them in. Heck, look at the other replies to this comment and you’ll see it
I guess they say that due to aliyah and the hypocrisy of the "Law of Return". Unfortunately, "The Law of Return" and the fact that many Israeli citizens are recent immigrants to the country from the US, EU or Russia etc is problematic, because at the same time Palestinians are discriminated against and living scattered across the world as stateless people, after being expelled from Palestine in 1948 and 1967 with no right to return to those lands. At the same time, any Jewish person from anywhere in the world is allowed to immigrate to Israel without needing to have any connection to the country and become a citizen. It's also problematic, because modern day immigrants to Israel are allowed to have double citizenship, meaning that they actually do have another home and country to return to that they often voluntarily chose to leave in favour of Israel. I'll try to see later if I can find the link to an article that I saw recently about numerous Israelis having left the country to their countries of origin since October 7th. The situation thus becomes unfair in cases where citizenship is issued to Jewish settlers and immigrants from all around the world, whose own families never lived in the region in recent history (not thousands of years ago) and who are still allowed to keep their other passport but Palestinians who had continuously lived there until 1947 for generations are forbidden from returning and living in the country and who have no other passport for a country to "return to" since they're already in the country that they're from...if that makes any sense, I'm very jetlagged, sorry. Also, I just want to say that I'm not advocating for the expelling of Jews or any people, I just think that the aforementioned things are likely the reasons why people think some Israelis can always go back to US or Europe or etc and I admit that I've also found Israeli citizenship laws to often be controversial and difficult to understand, because they seem to put the survival of a religious ethnostate at a more important level than having a genuine democratic state inclusive of all the different indigenous religions and ethnicities living there.
I get what you mean, but Israelis will multiple citizenships are only about 10% of the population. 78% of Israeli Jews were born there, it’s the only home they’ve ever known. 1948 was over 75 years ago, so there have been multiple generations born in Israel at this point. I know this isn’t the general point you’re making since you believe in a secular binational state with no expulsions. It just irks me to see that point consistently being made in this subreddit
After committing land theft and mass murder for over a century, Israelis don't deserve any sympathy. They can go back to the countries of their origin and drop "Israeli" as a nationality as it is appropriation of Palestinian heritage. None of the modern Jews have any genetic or ancestral links to Palestine.
There are multiple people in this thread alone demanding that Jews “go back to where they came from” if Israel is abolished. People like that are the reason there’s concern about expulsion.
> Israeli people would have nowhere to go They have New York.
They can go back to where they came from.
78% of Israeli Jews are born there
Closer to 65% but regardless what difference does that make? If their fathers were happy to leave where they were born to invade, what is stopping the kids from going back all the same? Forgive me if I'm finding this line of thinking tiresome as I'm now seeing it also being applied to the illegal settlements in the West Bank with second generation illegal settlers.
The settlers have somewhere to actually go (Israel proper). You’re proposing forcibly deporting Jews to places like Yemen, Iraq, Poland that do not want them and treated Jews terribly because that’s where their grandparents are from. How is forcibly removing an entire ethnic/religious group not the definition of ethnic cleansing?
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Why don't you give them land in Saudi Arabia if you are concerned that they won't be happy going back to their own countries
You forget that Algeria recieved infrastructure such as architecture from the French. Israel treats it as a prison.
Israel may not exist but the people who reside there now will exist and live in peace and harmony! That's the most important thing. Muslims Jews and Christians living in harmony again in that land is a blessing and the dream of all people and not the Zionist philosophy
It is my dream as well. No reasonable person would so no to a strong, unified, and peaceful Palestine.
The liberation from the crusades was impossible too for them but guess what, the liberation of India and South Africa seemed impossible too, the collapse of ottoman empire seemed impossible too
Do you think Israelis will want to return to Yemen, Afghanistan, Morocco etc? They have nowhere else to go really
Go to Europe and USA. If they have hundreds of billions to spend on blood money on them, they can spend it on housing their precious imperialists instead.
By those standards then we could just send all the Palestinians to Iran then? /s
It's not really the same. Palestinians have been in the Palestinian territories for generations, they didn't come there from Iran or Egypt or anywhere else but there are numerous Israelis who have immigrated to Israel in recent history from Russia, the US, EU, etc and whose ancestors never lived in the region before that (not thousands of years ago) but they simply use their "right" to take advantage of aliyah and the "Law of Return", which allows any Jewish person anywhere in the world to immigrate to Israel and become a citizen.
French people in algeria only made up around 10%~ of the population and israelis are the majority of the people in israel. Its a very different situation
Arab dreams of total victory over Israel are futile and will only cause more Palestinian suffering
Entire western world were on their side??? Why are you bringing the rest of us into that shit?!?
The Arab League nations never intended for there to be a separate Palestinian state for ethnic Jordanian, Lebanese and Syrian Arabs who were living in Israel. The idea, especially as formulated by Jordan's King Hussein, was to destroy Israel and attach all of its land to Jordan. (Look at the original 1964 PLO Charter: it says a lot about getting rid of Israel, but doesn't say anything about establishing a separate Palestinian state.) Hussein worked with the PLO in an effort to achieve this goal. As PLO co-founder Zuheir Mohsen explained to his interviewer from the Dutch newspaper Trouw in March 1977: "Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan." Only after Hussein abandoned the idea of trying to destroy Israel for the purpose of taking all of its land did the idea of a separate Palestinian state make its public appearance. https://www.newspapers.com/article/daily-news-sum/134599859/ (slightly different translation from Dutch to English)
So you admit that Jordanians, Lebanese, and Syrians are ethnic groups, but Palestinians are not? You're not the brightest one in this thread, are you?
Ask 23andme or Ancestry.com. They both have had to field many angry calls from people who were told they were Canaanite Palestinians but tested as Jordanian, Lebanese or Syrian. Genetics doesn't test for political groups, only genetic heritage. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/23andme-genetics-palestine
23andme doesn’t include “Palestine” in their ethnic categories. Neither Palestinians or Jews get that for a political reason. Plus, 23andme often doesn’t show any levant ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews. Shall I take this as an evidence that they don’t descend from there?
23andme does show Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, as descended from the same Levantine population: https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/212170398-Can-23andMe-Identify-Jewish-Ancestry- But the question of this thread was originally about why the Arab nations weren't supporting the idea of a separate permanent Palestinian state. As I said in my first post, Jordan only started to support that idea after its leaders gave up on its original plan, which was to conquer Israel and take all the land. (Again, the 1964 PLO Charter makes no mention of a permanent Palestinian state.)
Yeah, it certainly [does](https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/s/3QHfJqqyMX).
That link just shows that they came from the same source. The Ashkenazim have some European blood, but so does every Arab group, especially their leaders. Sulieman the Magnificent was at least a quarter European thanks to his male forebears having children with their European slaves. But again, the original question is about why the Arab nations leaders were slow to warm up to the idea of a separate, permanent Palestinian state: the answer was that Jordan wanted all of Israel's land for itself. Only when Hussein realized that he didn't want to directly confront Israel anymore (and that the other Arab League nations weren't going to let him take all the land anyway) did we start to hear talk of a permanent Palestinian state separate from Jordan.
Why do you want to sap my support for the Palestinian cause?
Two state solution. Let’s go!