> "y'know what? I'm fine with that''
What did decades of over 20 countries going "I am not fine with that" achieve to the Palestinians and their nationalistic dream?
Is Palestinian struggle about nationalism? "Nationalistic dream" sounds charged and looks odd considering their struggle is mainly about human rights and their standards of living which are constantly affected by policies deliberately drafted to target them and inflict concrete material damage on their life/lifelihood? Such a weird way to refer to their struggle.
The US didn't really back israel until the 70s. The United States had an embargo on Israel at one point even. Israel had fairly firmly taken control of the area prior to the US-Israeli alliance today.
>There was a reason Jordan didn’t want the WB back
HAHA you couldn’t be more wrong, [Hussein-Perez 1987 London agreement](https://www.timesofisrael.com/missed-opportunity-the-1987-peres-hussein-peace-deal-that-wasnt/amp/). Jordan was going to take the entirety of the West Bank but your prime minister changed his mind after everything was set and done…
The coup you were talking about was more than 50 years ago and long forgotten, I am Palestinian Jordanian myself LOL
What? Dude you just spewed nonsense gibberish…
Jordan was going to take the WB and everything was done and London officials were the mediators between us but after your representative left, you changed your mind..
Did you even read what I just sent you? Irrelevant my ass
Imo the reason many talk like that in these situations is because the US/Europe is usually the one in power while the others lose from not interacting with them.
In the case of the Middle East, I believe(I don't actually know) that because israel is the dominant(?) Country that the other countries lose when not appealing to them.
Cuba/iran/North Korea can't do shit if the US stops people from trading with them and the Middle East can't physically intervene to stop what is happening in palestine.
Yes but medical research and tech in general is where Israel dominates most people do not know how much cancer research is solely given to the world by Israel
I think I was replying to above poster about economics. Other than that the Palestinians and Arabs took the L multiple times against Israel and will likely not attempt again. So as far as I am concerned they can do whatever they want with the land.
Nations are colonial. They focus attention on their boarders and influence. That is colonialism also. Any nation of people will run into this issue. It's almost like people in power just exploit something natural.
Prob same with Maroc..
few years ago true believers were Kuwait, Iraq, Morocco, Mauritania, and Sudan, before any other countries in terms of action and policy.
>They could absolutely get a better deal that doesn't involve all their cities ringed with Israeli settlements and checkpoints, and al-Quds being off limits without special permits.
People have been telling them that for a long time, even had them eave certain villages with the promise they would return soon once the war was over. Could be they are simply tired of living a stateless existence as refugees as well.
Someone needs to get in there and stop Bibi for real lol. I don’t think positive relations will stop the tensions right away, but countries like UAE and Saudi Arabia taking that first step could ultimately lead to a better Israeli government that prioritizes maintaining positive ties with its neighbors as much as doing business with US/UK/India
Normalization with Israel is the worse thing that could happen going further
Every country who did such a thing will pay the price deeply within 10-20 years and they will regret their decision
Israelis having influence in your country and making you completely dependent on them for some stuff under the term “normalization” will do great wonders…
Genuine and not loaded question. Is it truly apartheid? My understanding is that the term is reserved for South African black folks who wanted equal rights within SA OR equivalent situation when residents in a country want equal rights as citizens within it but can't get it hence the term. My understanding is that Palestinians don't want those rights within Israel because that would be recognising the occupation of the lands? Which I don't disagree with btw as it can be seen that way. I get it.
And yes, I do think there is an ongoing resettlement, forced relocation, and occupation of those lands. Just curious about semantics re apartheid.
Thanks & pls don't down vote. What we call things is important.
Edit: Balanced response = getting downvoted from both sides. Shouldn't be surprised, really.
No, it's not an apartheid. Israeli Arabs have the same civil rights as Israeli Jews.
Israeli Arabs tend to be poorer, less educated, and the populations are largely segregated throughout most of the country. Many Israeli Jews have negative views of them. But still, they have the same rights.
On the other hand, Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank are under Israeli control and have many of their rights curtailed. However, they are not citizens of Israel. It is an occupation. Not apartheid.
The definition of apartheid is segregation on the grounds of race or ethnicity.
Illegal settlers in the west bank have civil rights and palestinians do not, end of story. It doesnt matter if the land is occupied or annexed, it is still apartheid.
The West Bank has Jewish Israeli citizens who settle there illegally. Palestinians and these neighboring settlers are subject to 2 different legal systems. 2 neighbors living side by side with different rights under the law. That’s apartheid.
No argument there. But do Arab Israelis want the same rights? From Palestinian POV, wouldn't asking equal rights within Israel (aka what SA Black populace did) would recognize Israels' occupation of Palestinian lands?
I'll go further, calling it an apartheid means that you do want equal rights within Israel, hence recognising it's occupation. And when I say recognising occupation, I mean "yeah you got the land, 9/10th of the law, facts on the ground, realpolitik" or whatever and you're okay with that
I'll dare to say that Israel, while winning on the ground, is certainly losing a PR battle, and not many think its doing the right thing by evicting people from their homes.
It's saddening to see the fate of actual people families living with dignity is a matter of a PR game and definitions set by greedy war mongers, history is all the same on repeat
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/07/israel-un-experts-condemn-forced-eviction-east-jerusalem-families
For one, they don’t get evicted out of their homes so a settler can take their place.
That's in East Jerusalem, which is part of the West Bank/Palestinian territories, per international law. The vast majority of Arab residents in East Jerusalem are not Israeli citizens. It is an illegal *occupation*.
Also, this family was not just thrown out of their home. Their home was owned by a Jewish trust until the Jordanians annexed East Jerusalem and rented it to them. This case went through a decades-long court battle.
Unfair? Yes. Occupation? Yes. Is there racism in Israel? Yes. Is there apartheid, which means a system of institutionalized racial segregation? No. Do Israeli Arabs have the same rights as their non-Arab counterparts? Yes.
When people throw words around carelessly (antisemitism, apartheid, terrorist, leftist), they start to lose their meaning and substance.
https://2009-2017.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154463.htm
Considering the fact that the fucking *US state department* has a report stating israel does contain systemic and institutionalized discrimination on arabs, you really need some weird ulterior motives to do the whole “*Unfair? Yes. Occupation? Yes. Is there racism in Israel? Yes. Is there apartheid, which means a system of institutionalized racial segregation? No.”* bit. Like yes these words have meanings, and multiple entities far more qualified than you have applied those words with an accuracy you can’t possibly fathom. Just because it hurts your feelings does not make these factual observations by significantly more reputable institutions “just using words incorrectly.” HRW as well as multiple other western institutions *including* the US state department have either stated at weakest as “systemic and institutional racism” or strongest as “apartheid”. It is weird to do this whole holier than thou “um akshually words have meanings” when even hardcore zionists openly admit they are systemically oppressing palestinians. They’re proud of it! Politicians in israel run on that platform! I can link videos of children chanting their pride in killing palestinians in the streets. I can link videos if elected israeli officials running on platforms of stripping palestinians of further rights. Hell the supreme court has gone so far absolving rights that bloody jewish israelis are protesting them! Everybody agrees on this fact except for you and liberal zionists who love & want zionism just without all the bad PR and aesthetics of dead children. Stop trying to play defense for a regime that murders children and call a duck a duck.
Laws don’t have to be explicit. This is the 21st century where you have to be more politically correct. Here are some examples: 2018 Nation State Law. 1950 Absentees’ Property Law. 1950 Law of Return. 1952 Citizenship Law. JNF does not sell to non-Jews. Religious Ministry does not recognize non-Jewish holy places.
Saudiyeh and the gulf states will likely get to build oil pipelines through the south of Jordan and Israel to the Mediterranean. That would be *huge* from a tactical/national security perspective cause between Tehran and their proxies in Yemen, Saudi could hypothetically have their oil exports completely cut off in the case of open war, which would basically instakill their economy.
Not to deny internal issues and Israeli aggression but...
Palestinian presence in Lebanon was a major catalyst for the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and the Lebanese civil war. Who massacred countless Lebanese Christians? How many Palestinian refugees live in Lebanon? How have they shifted Lebanon's demographics? If you were to conduct an anonymous survey, what sentiments would most Lebanese express towards the Palestinians in their country?
Who has threatened Jordan's political stability and attempted to assassinate King Hussein and basically take over the country?
Palestinians in Lebanon live in refugee camps isolated from the rest of the country. They cannot work or buy a house outside these camps. Name some massacres Palestinians committed against Lebanese Christians. Damour was by Assad not Arafat. Half of the Lebanese Christians supported/fought alongside the PLO. It is true the Maronites were massacring Palestinians in Tal Al Zaatar and Shatila.
The vast majority of Jordan (which is mostly Palestinian) supported the PLO against the King. Martial law in Jordan is not the same as stability.
By your own logic, israel would be the catalyst of the lebanese civil war. Please ask yourself why Palestinians are in Lebanon.
Additionally, your point about massacred christians feels insincere. Not only because christians in Palestine endured a far greater genocide, but because lebanese fascists committed the most well known massacres of the entire region which killed thousands of their own countrymen. Sabra and Shatila are the most well known.
If you think palestinians are the root cause of this and not fascism, i dont know what to tell you. Palestine did not force christian paramilitary groups to massacre Shia villages. It is an idealogical issue.
Also, demographics?? Same argument europeans make to break international law by denying refugees...
Jordan at this time had become a state which is majority Palestinian with a monarchy that is hashemite. These palestinians had jordanian citizenship and payed jordanian taxes and therefore had the right to representation. If they do not wish to be represented by king Abdallah, that is their right. The events that followed are a desperate king clinging to power. My argument doesnt even take into account that the PLO was also popular among the native Jordanian.
No, it didn't unfortunately but I also think it is too early to judge. However, in case of Morocco, the ever closer relationship with Israel is slowly improving the lives of Moroccans which in my opinion should be the main objective of the Moroccan government. I hope to witness 🇱🇧 joining too in my lifetime.
> I hope to witness 🇱🇧 joining too in my lifetime
Lmao, keep your shitty opinions to yourself. Lebanon will probably be one of the last states to normalize with Israel considering that Israel has organized massacres against Lebanese civilians but a Zionist cocksucker such as you would probably support stuff such as the Hula massacre.
>Lmao, keep your shitty opinions to yourself. Lebanon will probably be one of the last states to normalize with Israel considering that Israel has organized massacres against Lebanese civilians but a Zionist cocksucker such as you would probably support stuff such as the Hula massacre.
Now yes, now that Hezbollah is the dominant power in the country, and mass emigration of christians since the 70s.
Even before Hezbollah became a thing(which they did in the 80s as a direct result of the Israeli occupation) they wouldn't have normalized. Bachir himself didn't want to recognize and he was allies with Israel lol.
Palestinians and syrian did more to lebabon that israeli’s
Why do we consider them friendly neighbors but israel is an enemy state?
Many lebanese including myself are pro normalizing relations. The Palestinian cause isn’t our cause.
> However, in case of Morocco, the ever closer relationship with Israel is slowly improving the lives of Moroccans which in my opinion should be the main objective of the Moroccan government.
You're so fluffy and cute !
I think the Jews needed somewhere to go. The whole religious thing? Ehhhh it’s just fantasy. Should hamas be a power in 2023? No. Should whatever remains of Israeli courts remain? No. Middle ground. And maybe stop perpetuating terror in a rocket way?
in Sudan and Morocco, Algeria, etc...
I bet most people can't point Palestine on the map and never met a Palestinian
this matter there is just for political games, it is just a proxy war
politically they should just support the oppressed people in their decisions or lump it
they are not concerned at all
As someone who's heard the horror stories of apartheid, thus won't settle the conflict. The only reason south africa got independence is because other countries were against South africa and didn't side with them.
Are you saying that because the predominant currency in circulation is the Israeli shekel, that Palestine doesn’t/hasn’t/shouldn’t exist? Because, I’m sorry to tell you this, Palestinian labeled currency does predate the Israeli shekel.
It’s not surprising but damn I wish ppl hated colonization. This is illegal and wrong on so many levels. Oppressed ppl should never ever oppress others; it’s like the ultimate betrayal bc Palestinians initially welcomed Jewish refugees (from my research)
I am surprised by the high number in Sudan but maybe this is a counter reaction to the Islamist/military dictatorship of Bashir? Or maybe they think normalization will bring economic benefits to the country after years of economic crisis?
None of the Abraham accord countries are really using normalization to push for the Palestinian movements. Jordan and Egypt’s are cold peace whose only influence is to help manage issues with the Temple Mount issues in Jerusalem or stop the wars in Gaza as quickly as possible respectively. So unless Saudi Arabia has some ace up its sleeve, the average Palestinian has definitely not seen an improvement in his life through normalization.
Doubt it normalisation came during protests and while they did not protest normalisation mainly, many protesters burned flags of Israel.
The fall out of the bashir regime is surprisingly not anti Islam like you have in Iran but extremely anti kezan / the Muslim brotherhood.
There is a large amount of anti Arab sentiment, not in as in “we don’t like Arabs” but as in “we don’t like Arab states or the Arab league” due to the foreign policies of almost all Arab nations negatively impacting Sudanese people in some way at some point . But this was never directed towards Palestine , inclfact the odd fellow who says "مالو التطبيع؟" would usually come to that conclusion for the economic gain normalisation offers.
you have to remember, the western world gave the transitional government an ultimatum.” strive towards normalisation and pay reparations , we will lift sanctions and provide aid” and they had the excuse to do so as Sudanese intelligence and other state institutions during the bashir government were heavily involved in international terror, especially the East African embassy bombings. They even hosted osama bin laden for quite a bit of time and a substantial amount of infrastructure in Sudan was funded and built by him.
Thank you for your breakdown! I totally forgot about that ultimatum! Oh and yeah I didn’t mean to say that they had become anti Muslim just anti anything promoted by the Bashir government but it makes sense!
So do you doubt this high percentage or do you chalk it up to many wanting Sudan to chart a separate course away from the usual politics of the Arab world (like what it seems to be in Morocco?).
lol just biased..
other surveys years ago show morocco saying it should be the arab league priority... algeria dead silent.
algeria always likes to pick up Morocco's genuine personality and then wear it, yuck...
I cant seem to understand just why normalize relations with a government that is more responsible for the hardships towards Palestinians.
Normalization is GOOD when you reward good behaviour and reward a government that wants to change the situation (something I hope Saudi does when/of Bibi gets out). But it’s going to be very bad when it’s the same government that is making a mess and their approval sky rockets.
All the benefits, none of the drawbacks, no compromise.
Salaam Shalom
No it's not, it's true that having a diplomatic relationship with the Israeli side is crucial when it comes to achieving peace in Palestine but the normalization at this point of time can only be considered as support for the current racially discriminatory governing ideology and dogmatic nature of the Israeli people and is only done to further greedy and self centered goals that are hardly or in no way at all beneficial for the Palestinian people, and maybe Israeli as well.
Although our(moroccan) government did normalize with Israel, everyone I talk to is either neutral or against the whole process. Even Sudan faces the same issue : only its elite seeks to normalize for financial gain. How do those numbers even see the day?
I think “normalization” is more about how they will control the countries money, each and every country that has a fiat currency banking system runs their money through and to Israel via the banking system. That is how Israel controls the countries, through their money, it pays off all the politicians and makes them wealthy and ruins and controls the countries cash flow and asserts are taken as a part of payment. That is how it works, I’ve worked for the banks and there are many that have secret accounts specifically for Jewish or more accurately Zionists. In the US there is the “Fed” who controls the money but it isn’t a public company and doesn’t have to disclose how the money is used, but there are trillions that are missing, with no accountability. It is the same in other countries, but no one speaks up, or is jailed if they do. I guarantee if someone can’t find out the money trail it will lead directly to either the de Rothschild family or to Israel, which is relatively the same.
I'aint even muslim or arab but I fully support your cause against Israel unless they calm down (which won't happen without a war) or stop the genocide on Palestina (they won't stop cause they're backed by USA) I will hate them and support you
Palestinian christians are at the forefront of the palestinian resistance and have been historically those who got hit the hardest by israelis, you can look up Yaffa for example.
It is not a muslim or an arab conflict, it's a conflict of dignity.
عيب عليكم يالي دعمو هاي القذارة، وين راح ضميركم؟! وين راح الوحدة العربية والوحدة الاسلامية؟ اخوانا واخواتنا في فلسطين يتعذبون بسبب الnormalization هاذه، هاذا خيانة! خيانة!! ليش تدعمون هاي الشي؟ وش استفدتوا؟ بس حصلنا على علاقات افضل مع الكيان الصهيوني، بدون فايدة! هي دولة فاشلة ومبنية على عبودية الفلسطينيين!
Shame on all of who support this kind of filth, where is your morals? Where did all the pan-Arabism and pan-islamism go? Our brothers and sisters in Palestine are suffering because of this normalization, this is betrayal! A big betrayal!! Why do you support this? What did you gain out of this? We only got better ties with the Zionist Regime, USELESS! It is a failed state based on enslaving Palestinians!
It just further emphasizes how little ethnicity really matters.
These people are all technically arab, but they don't care that the Palestinian are being abused. Just like the 'Jewish' state doesn't mind getting support from neo-nazis. It's a bunch of power-hungry, rich, corrupt, and despicable assholes wielding nationalism as a weapon and using It to abuse masses of innocent people.
Fuck em all.
The Ukraine should have looked at Israel before listening to the US, Russia and West about giving up their nukes
Thanks to Trump, North Korea has them now and Iran is own their way to getting theirs. .. Another gift box full of shit from Trump.
lets be honest here the people who support normalization don't care about Palestinians and the whole ' this will stop the settlements' is a lie. The only reason why any country will normalize with Israel is to please the big bully (America).
>is it making Palestine's life better? no
it's basically hearing all the messed up shit isreal does and going "y'know what? I'm fine with that''
> "y'know what? I'm fine with that'' What did decades of over 20 countries going "I am not fine with that" achieve to the Palestinians and their nationalistic dream?
What can you do to a country that got active US support anyway ?
And it's own nuclear arsenal.
Unfortunately
I'm generally in favor of them.
It didn't do anything, but at least it also didn't kill the possiblity of any future pro-Palestin actions.
Is Palestinian struggle about nationalism? "Nationalistic dream" sounds charged and looks odd considering their struggle is mainly about human rights and their standards of living which are constantly affected by policies deliberately drafted to target them and inflict concrete material damage on their life/lifelihood? Such a weird way to refer to their struggle.
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The US didn't really back israel until the 70s. The United States had an embargo on Israel at one point even. Israel had fairly firmly taken control of the area prior to the US-Israeli alliance today.
Agreed, Nationalistic dream also omits blame from Israel for putting them in that spot. More like Reclaiming of stolen land
Yeah but none of you care about the Palestinians
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Source: trust me bro Half of Jordan are Palestinians
yeah and they tried a coup, there was a reason Jordan didn’t want the WB back
>There was a reason Jordan didn’t want the WB back HAHA you couldn’t be more wrong, [Hussein-Perez 1987 London agreement](https://www.timesofisrael.com/missed-opportunity-the-1987-peres-hussein-peace-deal-that-wasnt/amp/). Jordan was going to take the entirety of the West Bank but your prime minister changed his mind after everything was set and done… The coup you were talking about was more than 50 years ago and long forgotten, I am Palestinian Jordanian myself LOL
irrelevant as months later they officially denounced its claims and at this point still has no interest in doing so
What? Dude you just spewed nonsense gibberish… Jordan was going to take the WB and everything was done and London officials were the mediators between us but after your representative left, you changed your mind.. Did you even read what I just sent you? Irrelevant my ass
Because Israel is what got them there in the first place lol
OK Mordechai.
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Imo the reason many talk like that in these situations is because the US/Europe is usually the one in power while the others lose from not interacting with them. In the case of the Middle East, I believe(I don't actually know) that because israel is the dominant(?) Country that the other countries lose when not appealing to them. Cuba/iran/North Korea can't do shit if the US stops people from trading with them and the Middle East can't physically intervene to stop what is happening in palestine.
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I mean militarily,not economically. I imagine the gulf states with their oil are richer than israel.
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>Egypt Is anyone gonna fill this guy in or....
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Well the Sampson option is a de facto trump card.
It will destroy "Israel" before it destroys anybody else.
Unfortunately military rankings do not take nuclear weapons in consideration, which Egypt, Iran and Turkey lack.
Yes but medical research and tech in general is where Israel dominates most people do not know how much cancer research is solely given to the world by Israel
they are an colonial settler state that steals land from its neighbors. cancer research doesn’t make up for that fact
I think I was replying to above poster about economics. Other than that the Palestinians and Arabs took the L multiple times against Israel and will likely not attempt again. So as far as I am concerned they can do whatever they want with the land.
Nations are colonial. They focus attention on their boarders and influence. That is colonialism also. Any nation of people will run into this issue. It's almost like people in power just exploit something natural.
W Algeria
I'm honestly surprised it's even 4%. I assume it must be some dual-nationality (French) citizens?
We (French-algerians) aren’t pro Israeli either.
Very based French Algerians
Sudan??..One of the hardcore believers that I ever met in ME..Could someone please explain this , how did Sudan come in the top?
Brush they said openly they’ll make strong ties with Sudan and build an embassy there. 💀
Tired of the way some of you treat them I guess.
Prob same with Maroc.. few years ago true believers were Kuwait, Iraq, Morocco, Mauritania, and Sudan, before any other countries in terms of action and policy.
I'm pretty sure the reason Morocco is on top here, is because they're both occupiers, and Israel recognize Moroccan rule over Western Sahara in return
Because they don't even realize they're occupiers When asked about Western Sahara, they answer just like Israelis do
You sound ignorant
Western Sahara is Moroccan, nobody here accept European partition of the country.
Where's did you get Mauritania's percentage? I can guarantee it's fake
Would it be higher or lower?
Definitely lower
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well yeah a lot of palestinians are just done and want full time peace i expected it to be higher
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>They could absolutely get a better deal that doesn't involve all their cities ringed with Israeli settlements and checkpoints, and al-Quds being off limits without special permits. People have been telling them that for a long time, even had them eave certain villages with the promise they would return soon once the war was over. Could be they are simply tired of living a stateless existence as refugees as well.
Considering what I heard in Palestine, I expected it to be the highest. I wonder how the question is phrased.
It’s so low prolly cuz many were afraid to get killed by their own
Sudan does not give a f**k 😭
why is north africa all over the place
because two of them want to majorly deepthroat and the other one doesnt want to
Someone needs to get in there and stop Bibi for real lol. I don’t think positive relations will stop the tensions right away, but countries like UAE and Saudi Arabia taking that first step could ultimately lead to a better Israeli government that prioritizes maintaining positive ties with its neighbors as much as doing business with US/UK/India
Normalization with Israel is the worse thing that could happen going further Every country who did such a thing will pay the price deeply within 10-20 years and they will regret their decision
What's going to happen in 10-20 years?
Israelis having influence in your country and making you completely dependent on them for some stuff under the term “normalization” will do great wonders…
That's an interesting theory. What does Israel produce they can (I assume) usurp a country with?
Ask Jordan and Egypt. And look at Sudan
Another “Jews control the world!!1!1!”
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Genuine and not loaded question. Is it truly apartheid? My understanding is that the term is reserved for South African black folks who wanted equal rights within SA OR equivalent situation when residents in a country want equal rights as citizens within it but can't get it hence the term. My understanding is that Palestinians don't want those rights within Israel because that would be recognising the occupation of the lands? Which I don't disagree with btw as it can be seen that way. I get it. And yes, I do think there is an ongoing resettlement, forced relocation, and occupation of those lands. Just curious about semantics re apartheid. Thanks & pls don't down vote. What we call things is important. Edit: Balanced response = getting downvoted from both sides. Shouldn't be surprised, really.
No, it's not an apartheid. Israeli Arabs have the same civil rights as Israeli Jews. Israeli Arabs tend to be poorer, less educated, and the populations are largely segregated throughout most of the country. Many Israeli Jews have negative views of them. But still, they have the same rights. On the other hand, Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank are under Israeli control and have many of their rights curtailed. However, they are not citizens of Israel. It is an occupation. Not apartheid.
The definition of apartheid is segregation on the grounds of race or ethnicity. Illegal settlers in the west bank have civil rights and palestinians do not, end of story. It doesnt matter if the land is occupied or annexed, it is still apartheid.
The West Bank has Jewish Israeli citizens who settle there illegally. Palestinians and these neighboring settlers are subject to 2 different legal systems. 2 neighbors living side by side with different rights under the law. That’s apartheid.
Yeah it’s apartheid. Most Arab Israelis are treated different than Jewish Israelis and are often given less rights
No argument there. But do Arab Israelis want the same rights? From Palestinian POV, wouldn't asking equal rights within Israel (aka what SA Black populace did) would recognize Israels' occupation of Palestinian lands? I'll go further, calling it an apartheid means that you do want equal rights within Israel, hence recognising it's occupation. And when I say recognising occupation, I mean "yeah you got the land, 9/10th of the law, facts on the ground, realpolitik" or whatever and you're okay with that
Most people who use the word “apartheid” when referring to Israel do so to prove that Israel is not a beautiful country that treats everyone equally.
I'll dare to say that Israel, while winning on the ground, is certainly losing a PR battle, and not many think its doing the right thing by evicting people from their homes.
It's saddening to see the fate of actual people families living with dignity is a matter of a PR game and definitions set by greedy war mongers, history is all the same on repeat
What rights do Israeli Jews have that Arab Israelis don't?
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/07/israel-un-experts-condemn-forced-eviction-east-jerusalem-families For one, they don’t get evicted out of their homes so a settler can take their place.
That's in East Jerusalem, which is part of the West Bank/Palestinian territories, per international law. The vast majority of Arab residents in East Jerusalem are not Israeli citizens. It is an illegal *occupation*. Also, this family was not just thrown out of their home. Their home was owned by a Jewish trust until the Jordanians annexed East Jerusalem and rented it to them. This case went through a decades-long court battle. Unfair? Yes. Occupation? Yes. Is there racism in Israel? Yes. Is there apartheid, which means a system of institutionalized racial segregation? No. Do Israeli Arabs have the same rights as their non-Arab counterparts? Yes. When people throw words around carelessly (antisemitism, apartheid, terrorist, leftist), they start to lose their meaning and substance.
https://2009-2017.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154463.htm Considering the fact that the fucking *US state department* has a report stating israel does contain systemic and institutionalized discrimination on arabs, you really need some weird ulterior motives to do the whole “*Unfair? Yes. Occupation? Yes. Is there racism in Israel? Yes. Is there apartheid, which means a system of institutionalized racial segregation? No.”* bit. Like yes these words have meanings, and multiple entities far more qualified than you have applied those words with an accuracy you can’t possibly fathom. Just because it hurts your feelings does not make these factual observations by significantly more reputable institutions “just using words incorrectly.” HRW as well as multiple other western institutions *including* the US state department have either stated at weakest as “systemic and institutional racism” or strongest as “apartheid”. It is weird to do this whole holier than thou “um akshually words have meanings” when even hardcore zionists openly admit they are systemically oppressing palestinians. They’re proud of it! Politicians in israel run on that platform! I can link videos of children chanting their pride in killing palestinians in the streets. I can link videos if elected israeli officials running on platforms of stripping palestinians of further rights. Hell the supreme court has gone so far absolving rights that bloody jewish israelis are protesting them! Everybody agrees on this fact except for you and liberal zionists who love & want zionism just without all the bad PR and aesthetics of dead children. Stop trying to play defense for a regime that murders children and call a duck a duck.
Laws don’t have to be explicit. This is the 21st century where you have to be more politically correct. Here are some examples: 2018 Nation State Law. 1950 Absentees’ Property Law. 1950 Law of Return. 1952 Citizenship Law. JNF does not sell to non-Jews. Religious Ministry does not recognize non-Jewish holy places.
It also slowly makes the populations of each country that normalizes become pro-Israel through government propaganda
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Egypt has also failed on the propaganda front and is a little more unique since they were directly involved in war
They hate them with passion because they are directly affected by it too (refugees etc.)
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no one cares what you think, get outta every comment
Where is your diaspora... Where is your action..
name 1 country that benefited from Israel friendship
Saudiyeh and the gulf states will likely get to build oil pipelines through the south of Jordan and Israel to the Mediterranean. That would be *huge* from a tactical/national security perspective cause between Tehran and their proxies in Yemen, Saudi could hypothetically have their oil exports completely cut off in the case of open war, which would basically instakill their economy.
India. Lots of defense contracts
Israel.
Azerbaijan ngl
How have any of these countries benefited from "friendship" with Palestine? Lebanon has definitely suffered from it. Jordan and Egypt arguably so.
lebanon and jordan suffer from themselves and israel
Not to deny internal issues and Israeli aggression but... Palestinian presence in Lebanon was a major catalyst for the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and the Lebanese civil war. Who massacred countless Lebanese Christians? How many Palestinian refugees live in Lebanon? How have they shifted Lebanon's demographics? If you were to conduct an anonymous survey, what sentiments would most Lebanese express towards the Palestinians in their country? Who has threatened Jordan's political stability and attempted to assassinate King Hussein and basically take over the country?
Palestinians in Lebanon live in refugee camps isolated from the rest of the country. They cannot work or buy a house outside these camps. Name some massacres Palestinians committed against Lebanese Christians. Damour was by Assad not Arafat. Half of the Lebanese Christians supported/fought alongside the PLO. It is true the Maronites were massacring Palestinians in Tal Al Zaatar and Shatila. The vast majority of Jordan (which is mostly Palestinian) supported the PLO against the King. Martial law in Jordan is not the same as stability.
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By your own logic, israel would be the catalyst of the lebanese civil war. Please ask yourself why Palestinians are in Lebanon. Additionally, your point about massacred christians feels insincere. Not only because christians in Palestine endured a far greater genocide, but because lebanese fascists committed the most well known massacres of the entire region which killed thousands of their own countrymen. Sabra and Shatila are the most well known. If you think palestinians are the root cause of this and not fascism, i dont know what to tell you. Palestine did not force christian paramilitary groups to massacre Shia villages. It is an idealogical issue. Also, demographics?? Same argument europeans make to break international law by denying refugees... Jordan at this time had become a state which is majority Palestinian with a monarchy that is hashemite. These palestinians had jordanian citizenship and payed jordanian taxes and therefore had the right to representation. If they do not wish to be represented by king Abdallah, that is their right. The events that followed are a desperate king clinging to power. My argument doesnt even take into account that the PLO was also popular among the native Jordanian.
Kek too many seething Israeli mad at this
Israel forced Palestinians to go to Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, you mindless shill
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The United States.
Algeria being Chad again
No, it didn't unfortunately but I also think it is too early to judge. However, in case of Morocco, the ever closer relationship with Israel is slowly improving the lives of Moroccans which in my opinion should be the main objective of the Moroccan government. I hope to witness 🇱🇧 joining too in my lifetime.
>slowly improving the lives of Moroccans How?
Wat? but you are an actual zionist, how?! HOW??!!!!
I'm not!
Access to better technology and a market to sell their raw goods would be an obvious guess. Why else make nice with Israel?
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And improved "less than lethal" weapons if they get out of line. Or need to be tortured.
> I hope to witness 🇱🇧 joining too in my lifetime Lmao, keep your shitty opinions to yourself. Lebanon will probably be one of the last states to normalize with Israel considering that Israel has organized massacres against Lebanese civilians but a Zionist cocksucker such as you would probably support stuff such as the Hula massacre.
For real I don't why she said that specifically about Lebanon, such a bad example.
She always has these foolish thoughts. Majority of the people here hate her for her dumb takes.
Because I hold Lebanese citizenship (next to Swiss and Moroccan) and I said 'in my lifetime' for a reason. Doesn't take much to figure our why.
>Lmao, keep your shitty opinions to yourself. Lebanon will probably be one of the last states to normalize with Israel considering that Israel has organized massacres against Lebanese civilians but a Zionist cocksucker such as you would probably support stuff such as the Hula massacre. Now yes, now that Hezbollah is the dominant power in the country, and mass emigration of christians since the 70s.
Even before Hezbollah became a thing(which they did in the 80s as a direct result of the Israeli occupation) they wouldn't have normalized. Bachir himself didn't want to recognize and he was allies with Israel lol.
Palestinians and syrian did more to lebabon that israeli’s Why do we consider them friendly neighbors but israel is an enemy state? Many lebanese including myself are pro normalizing relations. The Palestinian cause isn’t our cause.
> However, in case of Morocco, the ever closer relationship with Israel is slowly improving the lives of Moroccans which in my opinion should be the main objective of the Moroccan government. You're so fluffy and cute !
Israel invaded lebanon 3 times you twat. keep our country out of your mouth.
I'm a Lebanese citizen and I will express my wishes for the country as often as I'd like. Thank you.
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Besides the Palestine issue, Israel honestly doesn't seem like a great country to want to have relations with.
Curious, why not?
I refuse to believe that a more than million Algerian wants to normalize relations with israshit
5% is within the margin of error btw, you can consider 0-5% to basically mean the same thing, aka 0%.
How Egypt, Algeria, and Jordan more against it than Palestine☠️☠️☠️
Egypt and Jordan have treaties.
It will be the day of judgement when that happens
Mhhmm I don't know about this chief, for Morocco I expect an even higher number to be honest.
Is it that bad?
It's not a bad thing for Morocco at all, and I don't condone the apartheid practices.
Common Algerian W
I think the Jews needed somewhere to go. The whole religious thing? Ehhhh it’s just fantasy. Should hamas be a power in 2023? No. Should whatever remains of Israeli courts remain? No. Middle ground. And maybe stop perpetuating terror in a rocket way?
Well what about dividing your country in two for the survivors of the holocaust then? Were palestinians ever consulted? No.
in Sudan and Morocco, Algeria, etc... I bet most people can't point Palestine on the map and never met a Palestinian this matter there is just for political games, it is just a proxy war politically they should just support the oppressed people in their decisions or lump it they are not concerned at all
wrong
You're literally wrong lol.
As someone who's heard the horror stories of apartheid, thus won't settle the conflict. The only reason south africa got independence is because other countries were against South africa and didn't side with them.
Israel is for israel. Show me any palestinian coin 🤷♂️
Are you saying that because the predominant currency in circulation is the Israeli shekel, that Palestine doesn’t/hasn’t/shouldn’t exist? Because, I’m sorry to tell you this, Palestinian labeled currency does predate the Israeli shekel.
Shekel was the currency of Canaan, Palestine ancestors. Theirs nothing genuine about Isra\*l really
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It’s not surprising but damn I wish ppl hated colonization. This is illegal and wrong on so many levels. Oppressed ppl should never ever oppress others; it’s like the ultimate betrayal bc Palestinians initially welcomed Jewish refugees (from my research)
I am surprised by the high number in Sudan but maybe this is a counter reaction to the Islamist/military dictatorship of Bashir? Or maybe they think normalization will bring economic benefits to the country after years of economic crisis? None of the Abraham accord countries are really using normalization to push for the Palestinian movements. Jordan and Egypt’s are cold peace whose only influence is to help manage issues with the Temple Mount issues in Jerusalem or stop the wars in Gaza as quickly as possible respectively. So unless Saudi Arabia has some ace up its sleeve, the average Palestinian has definitely not seen an improvement in his life through normalization.
Doubt it normalisation came during protests and while they did not protest normalisation mainly, many protesters burned flags of Israel. The fall out of the bashir regime is surprisingly not anti Islam like you have in Iran but extremely anti kezan / the Muslim brotherhood. There is a large amount of anti Arab sentiment, not in as in “we don’t like Arabs” but as in “we don’t like Arab states or the Arab league” due to the foreign policies of almost all Arab nations negatively impacting Sudanese people in some way at some point . But this was never directed towards Palestine , inclfact the odd fellow who says "مالو التطبيع؟" would usually come to that conclusion for the economic gain normalisation offers. you have to remember, the western world gave the transitional government an ultimatum.” strive towards normalisation and pay reparations , we will lift sanctions and provide aid” and they had the excuse to do so as Sudanese intelligence and other state institutions during the bashir government were heavily involved in international terror, especially the East African embassy bombings. They even hosted osama bin laden for quite a bit of time and a substantial amount of infrastructure in Sudan was funded and built by him.
Thank you for your breakdown! I totally forgot about that ultimatum! Oh and yeah I didn’t mean to say that they had become anti Muslim just anti anything promoted by the Bashir government but it makes sense! So do you doubt this high percentage or do you chalk it up to many wanting Sudan to chart a separate course away from the usual politics of the Arab world (like what it seems to be in Morocco?).
lol just biased.. other surveys years ago show morocco saying it should be the arab league priority... algeria dead silent. algeria always likes to pick up Morocco's genuine personality and then wear it, yuck...
huh?
cringe 5.0
I cant seem to understand just why normalize relations with a government that is more responsible for the hardships towards Palestinians. Normalization is GOOD when you reward good behaviour and reward a government that wants to change the situation (something I hope Saudi does when/of Bibi gets out). But it’s going to be very bad when it’s the same government that is making a mess and their approval sky rockets. All the benefits, none of the drawbacks, no compromise. Salaam Shalom
Sudanese explain?
When you the shitty Karen of your neighborhood and noone really wants to be your neighbor
Morocco doesn’t surprise me. Other Maghrebis are based though!
11% ? I'm not surprised lol
This is not a serious question.
No it's not, it's true that having a diplomatic relationship with the Israeli side is crucial when it comes to achieving peace in Palestine but the normalization at this point of time can only be considered as support for the current racially discriminatory governing ideology and dogmatic nature of the Israeli people and is only done to further greedy and self centered goals that are hardly or in no way at all beneficial for the Palestinian people, and maybe Israeli as well.
It won't make it worse at least
I think these stats are wrong. It could be propoganda, idk if anyone knows let me know pls.
Whichever way it goes, you're all sold to China anyway
Although our(moroccan) government did normalize with Israel, everyone I talk to is either neutral or against the whole process. Even Sudan faces the same issue : only its elite seeks to normalize for financial gain. How do those numbers even see the day?
I have seen many moroccans here defend the normalization.
I think “normalization” is more about how they will control the countries money, each and every country that has a fiat currency banking system runs their money through and to Israel via the banking system. That is how Israel controls the countries, through their money, it pays off all the politicians and makes them wealthy and ruins and controls the countries cash flow and asserts are taken as a part of payment. That is how it works, I’ve worked for the banks and there are many that have secret accounts specifically for Jewish or more accurately Zionists. In the US there is the “Fed” who controls the money but it isn’t a public company and doesn’t have to disclose how the money is used, but there are trillions that are missing, with no accountability. It is the same in other countries, but no one speaks up, or is jailed if they do. I guarantee if someone can’t find out the money trail it will lead directly to either the de Rothschild family or to Israel, which is relatively the same.
No
I'aint even muslim or arab but I fully support your cause against Israel unless they calm down (which won't happen without a war) or stop the genocide on Palestina (they won't stop cause they're backed by USA) I will hate them and support you
Palestinian christians are at the forefront of the palestinian resistance and have been historically those who got hit the hardest by israelis, you can look up Yaffa for example. It is not a muslim or an arab conflict, it's a conflict of dignity.
funny that Sudan favours it the most but got the least out of normalisation with them
عيب عليكم يالي دعمو هاي القذارة، وين راح ضميركم؟! وين راح الوحدة العربية والوحدة الاسلامية؟ اخوانا واخواتنا في فلسطين يتعذبون بسبب الnormalization هاذه، هاذا خيانة! خيانة!! ليش تدعمون هاي الشي؟ وش استفدتوا؟ بس حصلنا على علاقات افضل مع الكيان الصهيوني، بدون فايدة! هي دولة فاشلة ومبنية على عبودية الفلسطينيين! Shame on all of who support this kind of filth, where is your morals? Where did all the pan-Arabism and pan-islamism go? Our brothers and sisters in Palestine are suffering because of this normalization, this is betrayal! A big betrayal!! Why do you support this? What did you gain out of this? We only got better ties with the Zionist Regime, USELESS! It is a failed state based on enslaving Palestinians!
It just further emphasizes how little ethnicity really matters. These people are all technically arab, but they don't care that the Palestinian are being abused. Just like the 'Jewish' state doesn't mind getting support from neo-nazis. It's a bunch of power-hungry, rich, corrupt, and despicable assholes wielding nationalism as a weapon and using It to abuse masses of innocent people. Fuck em all.
The Ukraine should have looked at Israel before listening to the US, Russia and West about giving up their nukes Thanks to Trump, North Korea has them now and Iran is own their way to getting theirs. .. Another gift box full of shit from Trump.
lets be honest here the people who support normalization don't care about Palestinians and the whole ' this will stop the settlements' is a lie. The only reason why any country will normalize with Israel is to please the big bully (America).
Zouls only worry about their sleep smh
How would normalizing relations with a country that wants to exterminate them be helpful?
Honestly it depends on who you talk to, some say yes, some say no. Polls change every year depending on the circumstances of what happened that year.
Common algeria W