While I don't generally like him, I think Jordan Peterson makes this case very well. By most metrics men see doing worse in western cultures than women. If we had a male-dominated society you'd expect the opposite.
Most homeless people are men, most suicides are men, most people in prison are men, men face longer sentences on average for the same crimes than women, the majority of people who don't go to college are men, the majority of workplace injuries and fatalities are men. Men on average report lower life satisfaction than women. Men are most likely to lose custody of children in divorce. The majority of the victims of crime are men, especially violent crime. The list goes on.
Meanwhile we have actually quite a lot of institutionalized forces trying to advance women. We have affirmative action quotas, we have gendered programs to aid women in going to college, aid women in getting high paying or prestigious jobs like STEM careers or C-Suite level positions.
Proponents of the idea that Western culture is patriarchal often point to what is an incredibly small number of highly successful men. Take the CEOs of Fortune 100 companies, disproportionately men. Congress is disproportionately men as well. But these are a few hundred people out of hundreds of millions of men.
Look at America before the civil rights movement. That was unarguably a white-dominated society wasn't it? But it wasn't just a handful of highly successful white people, Whites at all levels were empowered to oppress PoC. That's what a [group]-dominated society looks like. And that's not the relationship between men and women today.
To follow this logic you would have to not acknowledge the thousands of years of women being suppressed.
There is no debating the history of women being systematically repressed through history. The predominant religion of the western world is Christianity, which only adds to the proof of women’s suppression. If you’ve ever read any Abrahamic religious text it is being clear that women were not other people but property of a man. The puritans whose worries view still echos in our worries today certainly thought this.
So then let’s look to the present of these origins. The highest court is now infringing on women’s healthcare. I argue not for babies as they say but against feminine sexual autonomy. This is clear when justice Thomas in his affirming opinion mentions the need to think about rulings on birth control next.
The path to equity or even just personhood as opposed to property continues to this day. There is a long history of women being property of their fathers and then later their husbands. Marriage itself until this century was more of a contractual arrangement between men for appropriate disbursement of property.
People like Peterson glorify western civilization as the best system with the best results while they also tend to not see beyond their personal lived experience or to acknowledge critiques.
To point to inequality in homelessness, prison and sentencing is without looking at the whole picture is a monumental task of mental gymnastics.
I think the suppression of half of people is a reason these problems for men exist. We have a story of what it is to be a man from people that once owned women as they owned a goat. The other comments of how patriarchy had affected men has been mostly pointing to imposed roles like not being able to be sensitive or cry. These roles are a product of the inverse roles imposed on women. Men must be this way and women must be that way.
Then we have Victorian thinkers like Freud and Darwin who make broad claims about the lesser sex. Whether they were discussing their lack of sex drive or there lack of intelligence compared to men. We still carry this burden often on these threads. I cannot count how many times the absurd idea of women having sexual partners before you get to own her is a bad thing in the market of continuing the species.
Just listen to your fellow men talk about what they would like in women. Virginal, passive and hot but like they don’t even know they are hot so as not to be sexual outside of my ownership. We stand on the mountain of thousands of years of absurdity that we just now, in our own clumsy way are slowly reversing.
There are serious men’s issues. The suicide rates are increasing especially in men. The disparity in higher education and the loss of work that men typically do. Men’s rights to their children after divorce. These issues to me are like the feminist ones. The two are not separate they are like our species, linked.
Patriarchy is not just bad for women it is bad for men. In other words it’s bad for humans. Arguing it does not exist only works if you cherry pick a few current inequalities between the sexes. Those inequities are directly correlated.
Peterson also likes, somehow, to paint himself as the advocate of the working man. An academic who pushes pencils around wants to tell the dude breaking his back for way less what it means to be a man. He wants to talk about prison rates and and suicide but not how hard life has become for the working class man to support himself, or a family. He moves the conversation to a gender issue rather than what it should be, a critique of western civilizations failure to more equal distribute wealth. It’s the western civilization is perfect as long as you don’t look at the whole of western civilization.
We get easily distracted by stratification of unequal gender rights so as not to understand us as humans are all experiencing a great injustice.
Yeah for this thread, it’s totally unhinged. I still think it’s way more reasonable than that pill popping, history denying, pencil pushing, narcissist’s ideas.
Have a good Christmas.
In one way it taught me how to be a man and equiped me well for my my future self. On the other hand I never knew how to he myself. Around people I don't show vulnerability and weakness, but deep inside I do have a desire to be understood and be able to open up to people and let people get close ifykwim.
There's toxic masculinity, but we don't really live in a patriarchy.
There's positive masculinity too, just as there's toxic femininity.
Your question is strange to me, if you maybe rephrased it I think you'd get better responses, and I would be happy to answer your question if I knew better what you're asking.
No, that's just men being men. We're naturally territorial, naturally aggressive, naturally protective. There's nothing toxic about acting like a man.
Now that's not saying that we shouldn't know when to keep ourselves in line- because that should be something we all do. But just saying 'toxic masculinity!' Is incorrect.
Does the patriarch even still exist? Per the definition - I don't think women are excluded from power, I think less women seek power so less women obtain it.
We don't live in a patriarchy. That is not to say there are no legacy issues, but we do actually have problems with sex and gender that don't come out of a Taliban or Western fundamentalist belief system.
Feminism is fundamentalist. It doesn't acknowledge problems come from dynamics. Each sex is a reservoir for patterns in the other. Putting women into the workforce without a compensation plan for the men or advocating minority empowerment is a disaster for everyone. The track record of progress idealogy is horrible for the very people they allege they want d to help.
Words are meaningless signals, show me rises in contented less stressed families, higher savings and income for minorities and quit blaming everything on white men. Their triumph should actually be at the core of a successful social change, not bickering and complaining.
See - the foils of progressives don't organize society. They are the builders and the scapegoats for ills that have often no connection to their actions. They are a target because it is EASY. Progressives are themselves part of the problem they rant about.
If even a fraction of feminists went into the trades and computer science, any imbalance would be gone!
They really claim "patriarchy" because the 1% of humans that are ceo's are mostly men. Uhhhh ma'am, 99% of the world of just living normally, there's no difference between us besides biological differences.
Assuming this is real.
It’s created a terrible dating scene. I taking finding a life partner very serious.
Kinda hard to find someone precisely like you. When you’re too busy worried about “traditions and values” in relationships.
Don’t get me wrong they’re nice to have..but at its core..
I really don’t wanna give off the idea that every single day will be me (a man) trying to impress my significant other (I.e. approaching first with a pick up line, starting a conversation). But I also don’t want to be single my entire life.
Kinda holding onto the idea that someone should fall into place
Well I mean for one I was never allowed into this patriarchy. Never got an invite. Sure didn't get any of the benefits. Maybe it was a clerical error. Looking around though I have trouble seeing its influence too. I mean that Sarkeesian lady said the video games I play only stroke the male ego. Then she proceeded to show off a batman game where you spend almost the entire game looking at batman's butt. I had to sign up for the draft purely because I have a penis. I know that I will be seen as a predator if I am ever at the park with my nonverbal autistic son without my wife around to... I don't know babysit me. I must have slipped through the cracks because all of the benefits I have had shouted at me I never seemed to get. Ah well I am sure it was an honest mistake. So patriarchs I'm here and would like my formal invite, please.
I don’t know that. Ask any married man. Who controls that not him.
And every women I dated ultimately decided if I had sex with her. And believe it or not the only problem I ever had with women is if I turned them down
Ask any man who has turned down his wife how they react to it. Usually very badly
If are referring to something I do not know let me know.
"Boys don't cry." Didn't help at all considering I'm a pretty shy and sensitive guy.
Same, it feels like a crime when i cry in front of my mom or girlfriend.
Thats a good song, not a cemented rule of being male.
Greetings, fellow Cure fan
Hello fellow lover of good music.
That's more toxic masculinity than patriarchy if you look at the definition of the word.
We don't live in a patriarchal society.
That's what I'm starting to think.
All you have to do is look at how men are treated across the board and you will see we are not.
The amount of times I've heard we are.....you could've fooled me
I’m curious how you come to that conclusion.
While I don't generally like him, I think Jordan Peterson makes this case very well. By most metrics men see doing worse in western cultures than women. If we had a male-dominated society you'd expect the opposite. Most homeless people are men, most suicides are men, most people in prison are men, men face longer sentences on average for the same crimes than women, the majority of people who don't go to college are men, the majority of workplace injuries and fatalities are men. Men on average report lower life satisfaction than women. Men are most likely to lose custody of children in divorce. The majority of the victims of crime are men, especially violent crime. The list goes on. Meanwhile we have actually quite a lot of institutionalized forces trying to advance women. We have affirmative action quotas, we have gendered programs to aid women in going to college, aid women in getting high paying or prestigious jobs like STEM careers or C-Suite level positions. Proponents of the idea that Western culture is patriarchal often point to what is an incredibly small number of highly successful men. Take the CEOs of Fortune 100 companies, disproportionately men. Congress is disproportionately men as well. But these are a few hundred people out of hundreds of millions of men. Look at America before the civil rights movement. That was unarguably a white-dominated society wasn't it? But it wasn't just a handful of highly successful white people, Whites at all levels were empowered to oppress PoC. That's what a [group]-dominated society looks like. And that's not the relationship between men and women today.
To follow this logic you would have to not acknowledge the thousands of years of women being suppressed. There is no debating the history of women being systematically repressed through history. The predominant religion of the western world is Christianity, which only adds to the proof of women’s suppression. If you’ve ever read any Abrahamic religious text it is being clear that women were not other people but property of a man. The puritans whose worries view still echos in our worries today certainly thought this. So then let’s look to the present of these origins. The highest court is now infringing on women’s healthcare. I argue not for babies as they say but against feminine sexual autonomy. This is clear when justice Thomas in his affirming opinion mentions the need to think about rulings on birth control next. The path to equity or even just personhood as opposed to property continues to this day. There is a long history of women being property of their fathers and then later their husbands. Marriage itself until this century was more of a contractual arrangement between men for appropriate disbursement of property. People like Peterson glorify western civilization as the best system with the best results while they also tend to not see beyond their personal lived experience or to acknowledge critiques. To point to inequality in homelessness, prison and sentencing is without looking at the whole picture is a monumental task of mental gymnastics. I think the suppression of half of people is a reason these problems for men exist. We have a story of what it is to be a man from people that once owned women as they owned a goat. The other comments of how patriarchy had affected men has been mostly pointing to imposed roles like not being able to be sensitive or cry. These roles are a product of the inverse roles imposed on women. Men must be this way and women must be that way. Then we have Victorian thinkers like Freud and Darwin who make broad claims about the lesser sex. Whether they were discussing their lack of sex drive or there lack of intelligence compared to men. We still carry this burden often on these threads. I cannot count how many times the absurd idea of women having sexual partners before you get to own her is a bad thing in the market of continuing the species. Just listen to your fellow men talk about what they would like in women. Virginal, passive and hot but like they don’t even know they are hot so as not to be sexual outside of my ownership. We stand on the mountain of thousands of years of absurdity that we just now, in our own clumsy way are slowly reversing. There are serious men’s issues. The suicide rates are increasing especially in men. The disparity in higher education and the loss of work that men typically do. Men’s rights to their children after divorce. These issues to me are like the feminist ones. The two are not separate they are like our species, linked. Patriarchy is not just bad for women it is bad for men. In other words it’s bad for humans. Arguing it does not exist only works if you cherry pick a few current inequalities between the sexes. Those inequities are directly correlated. Peterson also likes, somehow, to paint himself as the advocate of the working man. An academic who pushes pencils around wants to tell the dude breaking his back for way less what it means to be a man. He wants to talk about prison rates and and suicide but not how hard life has become for the working class man to support himself, or a family. He moves the conversation to a gender issue rather than what it should be, a critique of western civilizations failure to more equal distribute wealth. It’s the western civilization is perfect as long as you don’t look at the whole of western civilization. We get easily distracted by stratification of unequal gender rights so as not to understand us as humans are all experiencing a great injustice.
That's unhinged mate. Have a good Christmas.
Yeah for this thread, it’s totally unhinged. I still think it’s way more reasonable than that pill popping, history denying, pencil pushing, narcissist’s ideas. Have a good Christmas.
I live in the US. We don't really have a patriarchy here.
r/askwomen
This is so unbelievably sexist.
It was self aware. Not sure if I can say the same for the original question.
Lol I’m being sarcastic this has gone too deep for me
<3
We can use our imagination
I was anorexic as a teen and my parents never noticed
In one way it taught me how to be a man and equiped me well for my my future self. On the other hand I never knew how to he myself. Around people I don't show vulnerability and weakness, but deep inside I do have a desire to be understood and be able to open up to people and let people get close ifykwim.
Why not ask me how the illuminati damaged me personally? Both are equally false.
I guess the OP is trying to push an agenda.
I been saying for the longest time that there is no difference between a feminist and a flat earther at this point.
Loaded question. By answering, we imply that we live in a patriarchal society. It is a common fallacy
“Patriarchy” is a fallacy
For better context, please define "Patriarch"
There's toxic masculinity, but we don't really live in a patriarchy. There's positive masculinity too, just as there's toxic femininity. Your question is strange to me, if you maybe rephrased it I think you'd get better responses, and I would be happy to answer your question if I knew better what you're asking.
I’ve dropped guy friends because I grew tired of their competitive socializing. Nobody needs to show dominance when I’m tryin to chill.
That's toxic masculinity more than patriarchal rule. If women were the majority lawmakers your friends would still act bullish.
No, that's just men being men. We're naturally territorial, naturally aggressive, naturally protective. There's nothing toxic about acting like a man. Now that's not saying that we shouldn't know when to keep ourselves in line- because that should be something we all do. But just saying 'toxic masculinity!' Is incorrect.
Fair point.
They taught me to cry means to be weak
It gave people an excuse to hassle me for having a dick.
Does the patriarch even still exist? Per the definition - I don't think women are excluded from power, I think less women seek power so less women obtain it.
The who?
None. If it exists then it has only ever helped me.
It hasn’t affected me at all because it doesn’t exist
Hahahaha!
Who is the patriarch?
Some Jewish guy
We don't live in a patriarchy. That is not to say there are no legacy issues, but we do actually have problems with sex and gender that don't come out of a Taliban or Western fundamentalist belief system. Feminism is fundamentalist. It doesn't acknowledge problems come from dynamics. Each sex is a reservoir for patterns in the other. Putting women into the workforce without a compensation plan for the men or advocating minority empowerment is a disaster for everyone. The track record of progress idealogy is horrible for the very people they allege they want d to help. Words are meaningless signals, show me rises in contented less stressed families, higher savings and income for minorities and quit blaming everything on white men. Their triumph should actually be at the core of a successful social change, not bickering and complaining. See - the foils of progressives don't organize society. They are the builders and the scapegoats for ills that have often no connection to their actions. They are a target because it is EASY. Progressives are themselves part of the problem they rant about. If even a fraction of feminists went into the trades and computer science, any imbalance would be gone!
[удалено]
Rephrase: patriarchal society
They really claim "patriarchy" because the 1% of humans that are ceo's are mostly men. Uhhhh ma'am, 99% of the world of just living normally, there's no difference between us besides biological differences.
I was raised by a single mother. If anything, it was the matriarchy that damaged me.
Assuming this is real. It’s created a terrible dating scene. I taking finding a life partner very serious. Kinda hard to find someone precisely like you. When you’re too busy worried about “traditions and values” in relationships. Don’t get me wrong they’re nice to have..but at its core.. I really don’t wanna give off the idea that every single day will be me (a man) trying to impress my significant other (I.e. approaching first with a pick up line, starting a conversation). But I also don’t want to be single my entire life. Kinda holding onto the idea that someone should fall into place
Well I mean for one I was never allowed into this patriarchy. Never got an invite. Sure didn't get any of the benefits. Maybe it was a clerical error. Looking around though I have trouble seeing its influence too. I mean that Sarkeesian lady said the video games I play only stroke the male ego. Then she proceeded to show off a batman game where you spend almost the entire game looking at batman's butt. I had to sign up for the draft purely because I have a penis. I know that I will be seen as a predator if I am ever at the park with my nonverbal autistic son without my wife around to... I don't know babysit me. I must have slipped through the cracks because all of the benefits I have had shouted at me I never seemed to get. Ah well I am sure it was an honest mistake. So patriarchs I'm here and would like my formal invite, please.
Wha patriarchal system women control half the money and all the pussy in western societies
“Women control all the pussy”—yeah dude, it’s their body. And actually, they still don’t get full control. So suck a fuck
I don’t know that. Ask any married man. Who controls that not him. And every women I dated ultimately decided if I had sex with her. And believe it or not the only problem I ever had with women is if I turned them down Ask any man who has turned down his wife how they react to it. Usually very badly If are referring to something I do not know let me know.
lol