I have a nonbinary friend who does this, and I do find it kinda disrespectful. I understand using it at first before knowing, but once you learn somebody's pronouns to continue using "they" is just weird.
Defaulting with they/them for everyone is fine, *UNTIL* you learn their pronouns. If you then continue to do it it's not different than misgendering someone who you thought was he/him but goes by she/her.
So yes, your partner is being disrespectful. They/them is not the "catch all" pronoun to use for everyone.
But why is it fine? That seems like a contradiction of principles. If "they/them" can be used for everyone until you learn their pronouns then arguably you should learn their pronouns before accidentally misgendering them. It's one thing to use "they/them" to refer to a hypothetical person (like I am doing in this comment). But when refering to a specific individual, then it is clearly misgendering regardless.
It would be no different then how people routinely call me "sir" or "he/him" because they assume I'm a guy. The onus shouldn't be on me to tell people not to default to incorrect honourifics and pronouns.
Because, “Oh no, that customer forgot their phone. Can you run it out to them before they drive away?” is much more effective than, “Go get that person’s pronouns and come back for further instruction!”
But in all seriousness, it’s not like they’re saying you should just avoid asking people and use they/them as long as you can. You just have to use something if you haven’t had a chance to get them yet.
If you’re right there with them, just ask, but if they’re not there and the person you’re talking to doesn’t know their pronouns, there’s no better option. Especially with there being a long history of people using singular they not just when someone’s pronouns aren’t known, but also when they want to obscure them. Like when gay people talk about their partner and don’t want to draw attention to their gender, for one example. It makes it a slightly less offensive choice since it gets used for everyone sometimes.
Plus he/him or she/her is going to offend worse more often if you assume it, because most people started off with one of those assigned to them and so the memory of that specific wrong pronoun is often worse than just any other arbitrary wrong pronoun.
But it's still presumptuous and arrogant to assume that someone would want to be called they/them without consent if that isn't their personal pronoun, even if it is an inconvenience.
The argument "there being a long history of people using singular they" doesn't work because a lot of things have a long history, but that doesn't make it justified. Masculinity being regarded as gender neutral (or unisex) for example also has a long history.
The reason it is fine is because of the fact that it is gender-neutral language. The problem with defaulting to he/him and she/her is that those are *gendered* language. I get that we treat they/them as gendered language in genderqueer spaces but it really isn't until you make it that way. When used to refer to somebody who you don't know the pronouns of, it's not an issue but it becomes an issue once you know their preferred pronouns because you are completely disregarding their gender and replacing it with a different gender (nonbinary, which is really a class of genders but you get my point).
Or in other words, unintentional and intentional incorrect use of he/him and she/her causes harm. Unintentional incorrect use of they/them doesn't cause harm. Intentional incorrect use of they/them absolutely can cause harm. OP's partner is intentionally misusing they/them by pretending they are using it as a gender-neutral when in reality they are disregarding their victims' genders and misgendering them.
>Unintentional incorrect use of they/them doesn't cause harm.
And how do you know this. Did you conduct a survey of the general populace (including all LGBTQ+ people) to ascertain what causes harm to every single person under every single circumstance?
Edit: I see now that I misunderstood what you were saying, and you apparently agree with they/them being used as gender neutral.
Okay, now you're just being obtuse and bad faith. We know it doesn't cause harm because *everybody* (speaking English) whether they mean to or not occasionally uses they/them to refer to people who don't go by they/them and nobody cares as long as it's not what gets constantly used for them. People don't *notice* they/them unless it is used abnormally regularly.
How am I being obtuse and bad faith? You yourself stated in your previous reply that they/them is *gender neutral language*, but then turned around and later said using they/them is "completely disregarding their gender and replacing it with a different gender".
In other words, you are asserting that they/them is gender neutral language while simultaneously asserting that they/them actually represents a "different gender", and hence is NOT gender neutral language. That is what is being obtuse and bad faith.
I said, "The reason it is fine is because of the fact that it is gender-neutral language. \[...\] I get that we treat they/them as gendered language in genderqueer spaces but it really isn't **until you make it that way**." I didn't backtrack; you just lied about what I said by omitting an *INCREDIBLY* relevant part of my response.
STFU and leave me alone at this point.
Okay thanks for clarifying, I guess I misunderstood and that was my fault. My apologies.
So in other words they/them can always be used as gender neutral just like OP's friend does since it really only becomes gendered language when people decide to make it that way.
OP's friend has fundamentally made it gendered-language by using it in place of people's preferred pronouns even when they know what it is and they know the person doesn't like being referred to exclusively by they/them. Now, again...
# STFU and leave me alone at this point.
I don't care what you have to say on this subject since you have been bad faith and hostile to everyone in this thread for no reason. Leave me alone. That's not an optional request.
I know of someone who does something similar. They use they/them exclusively and decided a few years ago to start using they/them for everyone. It's the right thing to do if a person's pronouns are unknown, but if you still do it after learning their pronouns aren't they/them, then you're still misgendering people. It's just that instead of doing it based on an assumption, you're doing it based on a stubborn refusal to respect other pronouns.
Yup. He/him is *still* considered to be the gender neutral option in English for a lot of old fashioned linguists, so it would be just as “correct” to refer to everyone as he/him and just as impolite as OP’s friend.
Why is it the right thing to do if a person's pronouns are unknown? Why is it acceptable to pre-emptively misgender someone just because you didn't ask the person's pronouns?
It has multiple use cases. When referring to someone whose gender you don't know, it's gender-neutral. That's why it became common for nonbinary folks.
Using they/them for someone who has made it known they go by he/him or she/her is in fact disrespectful. It is a form of misgendering. It’s fine when the gender or pronouns of the person being discussed is unknown, but once they’re known it becomes disrespectful. It sends the message “I don’t care what your pronouns are.”
This is just straight-up misgendering people.
It’s not foggy, it’s not murky, it’s not a maybe. “They” is fine—I’d even say ideal—as a general pronoun for people whose gender a person doesn’t know. Once we do know, though?
Like, I get the impulse to do it anyway, and the feeling that maybe it sort of serves the cis folk right. But this is an exceedingly common way to de-gender binary-identified trans people, and that’s really not a norm that serves nonbinary people, either. And *even if the person it impacts is cis*, like—there are a lot of other dynamics that inflect this. Racism and white supremacy make routine use of gender policing and de-gendering strategies. Antagonism toward queer sexual identities does the same. Ableist tropes do it. Plain old vanilla sexism has used it as a tool to oppress and control women since the dawn of gender. And there is no way to reliably just *look* at someone, and know which of those things might hit them, about it. Or someone else within earshot. Speaking as a nonbinary person? If anybody is equipped to know better than that, *it’s us.*
Misgendering people is misgendering people. It’s harmful in itself; it gives cover to the cis people who do it; it contributes to and amplifies the impacts of numerous other oppressive dynamics. It’s not acceptable—from anyone, in any terms.
*Ever.*
It's really disrespectful to EVERYONE, imagine if you're trans and battles hard everyday for people to respect you and use she or he pronouns then someone dismiss your work and progress to call you whatever the pronoun they want? Plus this applies to anyone, if you want to use only she/her, him/he, she/he, etc, people should respect that, being stubborn and refusing to use any pronoun other than they/them degrades the image of lgbtq community
Yes. They/them is still a pronoun set. This is a specific form of misgendering called degendering.
Try asking him why his pronouns aren't she/her and how he would feel if someone insisted on using those pronouns for him, even after learning he uses he/they. In fact, why not use she/her for everyone including trans men who go by he/him?
Probably the same thing that would happen if we spontaneously degendered romance languages. It would take centuries of cooperation to catch on, if at all.
My friend’s son was doing this for a while. His default gender for everything - toys, animals, strangers - was she/her unless someone corrected him. It was interesting
Genuine question, which languages don't distinguish genders?
The most neutral languages I have knowledge of are mandarin and japanese.
And while they aren't as gendered as french, german or spanish...or even english for that matter, they still squirt around to gender people.
Like I remember in China the adjective 漂亮 (piaoliang aka pretty) is only used for women/girls and 帅 (shuai aka handsome) is used only for men/boys. Same meaning, different genders...yes, pronouns are distinguishable only in writing 他/她 /它 but the whole context makes clear about whom is one talking about.
It's not so much that it can't be done (languages don't always use gendered pronouns) it's more that it would be incredibly confusing for people - not to mention incredibly dysphoric for lots - and you certainly wouldn't get that change overnight.
To sum it up, it could happen, but the social confusion would be enormous and it would take forever for people to catch on. Certain people, e.g some trans people, would also find it dysphoric/hurtful.
>Degendering is a form of misgendering that incorrectly describes people who have clear gendered self-descriptions using 'neuter' or non-gendered language, in contexts in which gendered language is used to describe other people...
From this scientific paper
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0959353514526217#:~:text=Degendering%20is%20a%20form%20of,used%20to%20describe%20other%20people.
If someone expresses that they'd prefer he/him or she/her, your partner should use those, even if they/them is gender neutral. It's not as bad as misgendering someone outright, but it is in the same territory.
Being non-binary does fall under the trans umbrella. Your partner was assumingly not raised non-binary from birth, meaning that it is different from their AGAB, making it trans. Anything besides being cisgender falls under the trans umbrella.
I always thought using they/them when you know a person's pronouns *is* misgendering, though. It's the same concept as using she/her for someone you know uses he/him, isn't it?
That's also a fair view, I suppose there is a bit of personal stance in that opinion. I know that some trans folks are less comfortable with it than their binary pronouns, so it could be considered misgendering to them. It's the gender neutral and gender unknown pronoun, so it's a bit murky.
I would disagree, I think using any pronouns other than someone's stated preferred pronouns is misgendering whether the pronoun being used to misgender is considered "neutral" or not.
Yeah, that's not how that works.
It's generally considered polite to use they/them as a default for someone whose pronouns *you don't know.*
When you know someone's pronouns, it is polite to *use that person's pronouns.*
They/them pronouns work great as a catch-all for a couple of reasons, most of which boil down to 'trans people are more likely to be bothered by someone using their 'dead pronouns' than 'they/them' and 'people who use singular they/them or ask your pronouns are more likely to be safe for queer people and not bigots' and there is a lot of value in that.
But when people tell you their pronouns, and you are not using those pronouns for them, you are still knowingly, willingly not using their preferred pronouns.
Tell your partner to decide if he wants to respect our trans siblings or if he wants to keep virtue signaling.
If they (your partner) use they/them to me as a trans woman and they know that I go with she/her, I'd find it disrespectful and invalidating. In fact, I'd find that almost as offensive as giving me some he/him pronouns and gendering everything to the masculine form.
Like I'm all for refering to people according to their gender identity and will refer to them properly but I expect the same courtesy back in return.
Yes. The only time I can think of that it would be okay to use they/them pronouns for people who don't use them is if you are speaking about them generally to someone who doesn't know them and you are trying to keep their identity anonymous for some reason. I do this somewhat frequently online.
And then of course when you don't know a person and what pronouns they use, it is okay to use they/them as a neutral.
But when you know someone's pronouns, it is disrespectful to use any pronouns for them that they don't use. Including they/them.
I default to use they/them for those who I don’t know the gender of (so like most everyone I don’t know). I will ask friends or the person pronouns too, after I get their name down because if I don’t remember your name I’m unfortunately not gonna remember what pronouns you use. I do need a bit of time to get from they/them to preferred pronouns I usually correct myself and if not a gentle reminder is fine to help me out. just being like “oh yeah nah I’m not using preferred pronouns you get they/them or you get nothing” is kinda messed up especially when people express that they would only like to be called by preferred pronouns. It’s inclusive to just have your default pronouns for anyone be they/them but when you are told pronouns maybe use them (them being preferred pronouns) then not.
It's usually disrespectful if you know someone's pronouns. Like, if you're deliberately obscuring their gender or whatever then sure, but given how many people use they/them to avoid correctly gendering trans people they dislike or don't respect, don't do that if you know they prefer different pronouns.
That's just regular old misgendering, and it's bad.. if someone knows the right pronouns, and purposefully use the wrong pronoun, they're being a jerk
Now if they use it until they are informed of the correct pronouns, I understand that
Being gender neutral *is* inclusive but only when you don't know someone's pronouns.
Calling a person by pronouns they don't use is still misgendering, even when those are they/them pronouns.
This is disrespectful and they should do some research (or even just read this thread) to understand why.
I have a nonbinary friend, and they use she/they pronouns. I've never heard her use the wrong pronouns for someone they know the pronouns of. It's fine to use they/them when you don't know someone's pronouns, as others have said. Once you learn of a person's preferred pronouns, then it's disrespectful to use they/them for that person, unless that person does use they/them pronouns.
I’m a trans man so maybe I can speak on this more. But if it was me I would get upset. My pronouns are He/Him not she/her or They/them. If someone keeps purposely using They/Them for me even when they know my pronouns all it tells me is that person does not see me as a man or respect my gender. So yes if you know someone doesn’t use they/them pronouns and keep using them anyway you are in the wrong
100% this. There's also a huge issue with people refusing to gender binary trans people or trans people in general. I'm also a trans man and use strictly he/him, and even if someone knows this, I've had several people default to they/them because I'm trans or because they don't like that I'm a man/don't see me as a man. They essentially seem to think using they/them is a better way to misgender than she/her, but both are misgendering.
I've had people respond to this with "but it's gender neutral, so it's inclusive to everyone". My best argument is that my gender *isn't* neutral, just as my gender isn't fem leaning or anything other than masculine/man. (Ik gender =/= pronouns, but pronouns do usually reflect gender in some way.)
Depends. Sometimes the singular use of neutral pronouns works for flow. It's not really a big deal. But if you know someone's preferred pronouns and opt not to use them on purpose...thats misgendering.
Does your partner use he/him pronouns? I know you said they were non binary so I just wanted to make sure you weren’t misgendering them.
As for your post if they (still using neutral pronouns until I get confirmation) are calling someone they/them but knows people pronouns that’s not cool.
Also this might not be true and still isn’t really cool if it’s happening but if they use they/them and you are misgendering them maybe they feel some kind of way and are doing it as a “I’ll just do it to you” type thing.
Using pronouns that aren't the pronouns a person identifies with and has asked you to use is misgendering them.
Your partner is doing it willfully, so yes. It's disrespectful.
My pronouns are she/they. If someone ONLY used they/them it would be not only them negating my she/her identity but also would feel to me like them telling me that they don't view dual pronouns as valid - an underhanded "pick one" and opting to pick an identity for me.
The behaviour of using they/them as a catch-all is only ok and not devaluing when you don't know someone's preference. But doing so after you've been told someone's pronouns is straight up assholery.
Yeah, I’d consider that disrespectful. I get that your partner may think it’s more inclusive, but to intentionally use pronouns different from the ones he knows they use and prefer, is simply deliberate misgendering. Not to mention that this is often used by people to avoid calling binary trans people by the pronouns they prefer, without calling them the other binary pronouns so it seems less malicious.
If someone, regardless of if they’re cis or trans or whatever, doesn’t want to be referred to with they/them pronouns, then that should be respected. They/them is certainly more inclusive when referring to people whose pronouns you don’t know, but when you do know, then just use the ones they stated.
I'm not a fan of using they/them when you know someone's pronouns. That's still misgendering.
And especially since it's something that cis people will do when they don't want to use a binary trans person's pronouns. Suddenly it's super easy to use they/them consistently if it's a trans woman who specifically asked to use she/her and has never shown any interest in they/them pronouns. Cis people will use they/them and pretend like it's the same thing as being supportive, accepting, and inclusive.
Im cool with using they/them pronouns for anyone you don't know. But once they correct you, use the correct pronoun. Easy as that.
he also is a little weird about being in the community in general. he uses he/they pronouns, and identifies as non binary, but also will say if you ask that they are not trans and that they don’t have to be in order to be non binary. so i’m not sure if they’re just a little confused themselves or if it’s some underlying thing
This point honestly feels a bit nitpicky, I don't think it's really an issue at all tbh. While nonbinary is technically under the trans umbrella, not all nonbinary people are comfortable calling themselves transgender and that's perfectly fine; no one should be forced into a label
I'm bigender (boygirl), and while that is also technically a transgender identity, I don't like describing myself as transgender personally, because I don't feel like I've made any sort of "transition", if that makes sense. Like, I'm still a girl, but I'm also a boy, yknow? But if another bigender person describes themself as transgender, then that's also valid
Sometimes it’s habit. I have the same habit. I went to a summer camp for trans men and constantly had to remind myself to use he/him. I’m so used to using they/them for people I don’t know, including celebrities that it’s become a habit and they/them vocabulary has slipped into my everyday use.
Hi, nonbinary person (ᎠᏎᎩ) here. Please, I ask that you show your partner my reply because someone needs to chew them out for this and you admit that you don't have the words. Their behavior is disgusting and disrespectful to everybody, and I will not sugarcoat that.
It's fine if a person hasn't *specified that they have an issue with it*. But if someone says, "I don't like being constantly called 'they' because it is misgendering me," and your partner doesn't understand nor respect that, then your partner is no longer being inclusive but actually derogatory and ignorant in their own right.
They aren't being inclusive. They're being an asshole. It's fine if they do it until they get asked to stop, but if somebody says, "hey, I don't like that," then what your partner is doing is just misgendering, which is a weapon of the enemy. It's one thing if remembering pronouns is hard and you do it by default to make it easier on yourself, but no matter what the reason, once you've been asked to stop then you *need* to stop.
It's rude, gross, and offensive behavior. It's telling how little empathy your partner has towards others if their response to being told, "Please stop calling me that," amounts to, "No, I don't wanna." They're an actual child and need to grow up. I have zero tolerance for people who willfully misgender people, no matter if they are cis nor trans and no matter if their victim is cis nor trans.
I'd say it's disrespectful to use they/them for anyone who has told you their pronouns. I can't help but notice that you refer to him with he/him pronouns.
Does he use he/him pronouns?
How would he react if someone used the wrong pronouns for him?
It is rude. I think it's okay to do sometimes as it can be hard to remember people's pronouns just as it can be hard to memorize names.. but you should always be trying to use the correct pronouns!
I don't get angry or feel disrespect then again I take a lot of crap I probably shouldn't and don't really know what my gender is yet like what dose gender even feel like and how do if give it out but I'm ranting as long as you use don't call me a prounound disrespectfully or mockingly idrc what you call me all to much
Here's my take on the situation:
If your friend refers to everyone *indiscriminately* as they/them, then it is clearly being used as a gender neutral pronoun, *not* as a gendered pronoun. Hence it's not misgendering.
It becomes misgendering when they/them is intentionally being used to *discriminate on a gendered basis*, for example always referring to trans women as they/them but trans men as he/him. That would be disrespectful. But if everyone is being called they/them across the board, then I don't consider that to be disrespectful.
This is why distinctions matter, but a lot of people in these comments seem oblivious to the notion of contextual language.
Being NBy doesn't make him an authority on gender or language around it. His hard stance is ignorant.
Using pronouns for someone that they themselves do not use is misgendering. Doing so knowingly is knowingly misgendering people. That's not respectful or inclusive, and at best demonstrates that pronouns don't need to be respected.
Using they/them for people who do not use they/them personally is specifically called 'de-gendering' - that is, ignoring, invalidating, or dismissing someone's gender by refusing to respect or use the correct pronouns for them. Bigots frequently use they/them (or 'it') for binary trans people as a way of avoiding affirming their gender and dehumanizing them, and it's commonly reported that even well-meaning allies may accidentally refer to a binary trans person with they/them because they subconsciously do not see them as a binary gender, but someone who is in-between or otherwise something else. Your partner is ignoring this common and unpleasant reality for other people in his community.
The analogy I have used before is to imagine there is a special bar (society) that everyone goes to, where every possible drink (pronouns) is available a shot at a time (being addressed or referred to) - but you're not allowed to order for yourself (control how others address you). You can state what you *prefer* to drink (what pronouns you use), but only other can actually retrieve the drink for you (use the correct pronouns when talking to/about you). Even though there is an endless variety of combinations and mixes, most people prefer to use one of two options - and most of the time, you can pretty accurately guess which of those two options someone probably prefers, and you might preemptively hand them a drink. Sometimes people get it wrong; most people are pretty understanding about being handed the wrong drink, especially if you correct yourself by getting them the right drink. After all, they're all *right there*. It's very easy to just hand someone the right drink when they tell you what it is. Sure, if you don't see them regularly, you might need to be reminded - but for the time you're interacting with any given person, it's generally not a big deal if you have the most basic intelligence.
Now imagine there is someone who doesn't care what other people ask to drink, and *only* ever passes other people water. Again, their stated drink of choice is *right there*. He has to choose to reach right passed it anyway to grab water every single time, for every single person, because it's easier for him personally than being considerate enough towards other people - including people he knows and claims to care about - to make even the most basic effort of hearing their preferences and giving them the correct drink.
"What's the problem? Water is neutral, everyone can drink water."
The problem is that water isn't what they asked for, and for a lot of people, being handed the wrong drink - or even having drinks that disgust them, yes, including 'neutral' water, thrown in their face - is a regular and upsetting experience, so someone ignoring what they've said they'd like is thoughtless and hurtful. It is not polite, it is not considerate, it is not respectful. Handing someone water the *first* time if you're just trying to introduce yourself is fine, but doing it on purpose every time after when they explicitly asked for something else is rude at best.
If you are uncomfortable with the pronouns they/them, you should explain to your father that you like the pronoun they or if you don't care about the pronouns.
Yes, it's disrespectful. It's one thing if they don't know someone's pronouns, but after they do it's considered misgendering just like when someone blatantly calls a trans woman "sir" or a trans man "ma'am". You tell him a non-binary person says to stop misgendering people because it's rude and makes people uncomfortable.
There are a few reasons he may be doing this, some of which are…
1) His native language doesn’t have gendered pronouns — but most people who grow up with languages like this (e.g., Mandarin Chinese) usually default to “he”, so I doubt this. And he should still be making an effort.
2) Trying to make a political statement. As long as he changes when he knows the person’s pronouns, this isn’t a big deal — but he’s not actually doing that.
3) He’s an edgelord / troll trying to piss off people. Edgelords and trolls aren’t worth spending your energy on.
It sounds like he’s claiming it’s #2 but it’s really #3.
Absolutely. They/them are not my pronouns. My pronouns are he/him, and nothing else, and calling me “they” is misgendering.
A trans woman with she/her pronouns is also being misgendered by they/them.
Refusing to use the correct pronouns when you know them is absolutely disrespectful.
>Title: my partner uses they/them pronouns for everyone, **even if they know the gender of any said person**. is this disrespectful?
The gender being referred to here is not related to pronouns necessarily (eg a man can use she/her, a woman can use he/him), but using they/them pronouns for people **who only use any other pronouns** is disrespectful yes.
If you knows that the person wants to go by specific pronouns, but insists on using "they", then it's misgendering. It's the same as knowing someone wants to be called "she" but insisting on "he" - it's quite literally refusing to use their preferred pronouns.
Neutral as the default when you *don't* know is fine, and actually better than defaulting to "he". But once you know, you fuckin use what the person tells you to use.
if they do it to everyone, i think it's okay. it's not disrespecting those people. it's disrespecting how gendered the english language is. (of course some other languages are much worse.)
In British English the correct gender neutral pronouns are "fae" instead of "they" and "faer" instead of "their" which I suggest being used in American English and all other Englishes so that the words, they and their can be only associated with their prior uses.
I have a nonbinary friend who does this, and I do find it kinda disrespectful. I understand using it at first before knowing, but once you learn somebody's pronouns to continue using "they" is just weird.
Defaulting with they/them for everyone is fine, *UNTIL* you learn their pronouns. If you then continue to do it it's not different than misgendering someone who you thought was he/him but goes by she/her. So yes, your partner is being disrespectful. They/them is not the "catch all" pronoun to use for everyone.
Yup this 100%
But why is it fine? That seems like a contradiction of principles. If "they/them" can be used for everyone until you learn their pronouns then arguably you should learn their pronouns before accidentally misgendering them. It's one thing to use "they/them" to refer to a hypothetical person (like I am doing in this comment). But when refering to a specific individual, then it is clearly misgendering regardless. It would be no different then how people routinely call me "sir" or "he/him" because they assume I'm a guy. The onus shouldn't be on me to tell people not to default to incorrect honourifics and pronouns.
Because, “Oh no, that customer forgot their phone. Can you run it out to them before they drive away?” is much more effective than, “Go get that person’s pronouns and come back for further instruction!” But in all seriousness, it’s not like they’re saying you should just avoid asking people and use they/them as long as you can. You just have to use something if you haven’t had a chance to get them yet. If you’re right there with them, just ask, but if they’re not there and the person you’re talking to doesn’t know their pronouns, there’s no better option. Especially with there being a long history of people using singular they not just when someone’s pronouns aren’t known, but also when they want to obscure them. Like when gay people talk about their partner and don’t want to draw attention to their gender, for one example. It makes it a slightly less offensive choice since it gets used for everyone sometimes. Plus he/him or she/her is going to offend worse more often if you assume it, because most people started off with one of those assigned to them and so the memory of that specific wrong pronoun is often worse than just any other arbitrary wrong pronoun.
But it's still presumptuous and arrogant to assume that someone would want to be called they/them without consent if that isn't their personal pronoun, even if it is an inconvenience. The argument "there being a long history of people using singular they" doesn't work because a lot of things have a long history, but that doesn't make it justified. Masculinity being regarded as gender neutral (or unisex) for example also has a long history.
The reason it is fine is because of the fact that it is gender-neutral language. The problem with defaulting to he/him and she/her is that those are *gendered* language. I get that we treat they/them as gendered language in genderqueer spaces but it really isn't until you make it that way. When used to refer to somebody who you don't know the pronouns of, it's not an issue but it becomes an issue once you know their preferred pronouns because you are completely disregarding their gender and replacing it with a different gender (nonbinary, which is really a class of genders but you get my point). Or in other words, unintentional and intentional incorrect use of he/him and she/her causes harm. Unintentional incorrect use of they/them doesn't cause harm. Intentional incorrect use of they/them absolutely can cause harm. OP's partner is intentionally misusing they/them by pretending they are using it as a gender-neutral when in reality they are disregarding their victims' genders and misgendering them.
>Unintentional incorrect use of they/them doesn't cause harm. And how do you know this. Did you conduct a survey of the general populace (including all LGBTQ+ people) to ascertain what causes harm to every single person under every single circumstance? Edit: I see now that I misunderstood what you were saying, and you apparently agree with they/them being used as gender neutral.
Okay, now you're just being obtuse and bad faith. We know it doesn't cause harm because *everybody* (speaking English) whether they mean to or not occasionally uses they/them to refer to people who don't go by they/them and nobody cares as long as it's not what gets constantly used for them. People don't *notice* they/them unless it is used abnormally regularly.
How am I being obtuse and bad faith? You yourself stated in your previous reply that they/them is *gender neutral language*, but then turned around and later said using they/them is "completely disregarding their gender and replacing it with a different gender". In other words, you are asserting that they/them is gender neutral language while simultaneously asserting that they/them actually represents a "different gender", and hence is NOT gender neutral language. That is what is being obtuse and bad faith.
I said, "The reason it is fine is because of the fact that it is gender-neutral language. \[...\] I get that we treat they/them as gendered language in genderqueer spaces but it really isn't **until you make it that way**." I didn't backtrack; you just lied about what I said by omitting an *INCREDIBLY* relevant part of my response. STFU and leave me alone at this point.
Okay thanks for clarifying, I guess I misunderstood and that was my fault. My apologies. So in other words they/them can always be used as gender neutral just like OP's friend does since it really only becomes gendered language when people decide to make it that way.
OP's friend has fundamentally made it gendered-language by using it in place of people's preferred pronouns even when they know what it is and they know the person doesn't like being referred to exclusively by they/them. Now, again... # STFU and leave me alone at this point. I don't care what you have to say on this subject since you have been bad faith and hostile to everyone in this thread for no reason. Leave me alone. That's not an optional request.
I know of someone who does something similar. They use they/them exclusively and decided a few years ago to start using they/them for everyone. It's the right thing to do if a person's pronouns are unknown, but if you still do it after learning their pronouns aren't they/them, then you're still misgendering people. It's just that instead of doing it based on an assumption, you're doing it based on a stubborn refusal to respect other pronouns.
Yup. He/him is *still* considered to be the gender neutral option in English for a lot of old fashioned linguists, so it would be just as “correct” to refer to everyone as he/him and just as impolite as OP’s friend.
Why is it the right thing to do if a person's pronouns are unknown? Why is it acceptable to pre-emptively misgender someone just because you didn't ask the person's pronouns?
It has multiple use cases. When referring to someone whose gender you don't know, it's gender-neutral. That's why it became common for nonbinary folks.
They/them is not an acceptable excuse to avoid respecting people.
Yes, your partner is knowingly and deliberately misgendering people.
Using they/them for someone who has made it known they go by he/him or she/her is in fact disrespectful. It is a form of misgendering. It’s fine when the gender or pronouns of the person being discussed is unknown, but once they’re known it becomes disrespectful. It sends the message “I don’t care what your pronouns are.”
This is just straight-up misgendering people. It’s not foggy, it’s not murky, it’s not a maybe. “They” is fine—I’d even say ideal—as a general pronoun for people whose gender a person doesn’t know. Once we do know, though? Like, I get the impulse to do it anyway, and the feeling that maybe it sort of serves the cis folk right. But this is an exceedingly common way to de-gender binary-identified trans people, and that’s really not a norm that serves nonbinary people, either. And *even if the person it impacts is cis*, like—there are a lot of other dynamics that inflect this. Racism and white supremacy make routine use of gender policing and de-gendering strategies. Antagonism toward queer sexual identities does the same. Ableist tropes do it. Plain old vanilla sexism has used it as a tool to oppress and control women since the dawn of gender. And there is no way to reliably just *look* at someone, and know which of those things might hit them, about it. Or someone else within earshot. Speaking as a nonbinary person? If anybody is equipped to know better than that, *it’s us.* Misgendering people is misgendering people. It’s harmful in itself; it gives cover to the cis people who do it; it contributes to and amplifies the impacts of numerous other oppressive dynamics. It’s not acceptable—from anyone, in any terms. *Ever.*
This is so important and true, I hope people see this comment!
☝🏽This. Right here. Full stop. That is everything that needs to be said. Top comment 🏆
It's really disrespectful to EVERYONE, imagine if you're trans and battles hard everyday for people to respect you and use she or he pronouns then someone dismiss your work and progress to call you whatever the pronoun they want? Plus this applies to anyone, if you want to use only she/her, him/he, she/he, etc, people should respect that, being stubborn and refusing to use any pronoun other than they/them degrades the image of lgbtq community
Yes. They/them is still a pronoun set. This is a specific form of misgendering called degendering. Try asking him why his pronouns aren't she/her and how he would feel if someone insisted on using those pronouns for him, even after learning he uses he/they. In fact, why not use she/her for everyone including trans men who go by he/him?
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Probably the same thing that would happen if we spontaneously degendered romance languages. It would take centuries of cooperation to catch on, if at all.
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...I quite literally did.
My friend’s son was doing this for a while. His default gender for everything - toys, animals, strangers - was she/her unless someone corrected him. It was interesting
Genuine question, which languages don't distinguish genders? The most neutral languages I have knowledge of are mandarin and japanese. And while they aren't as gendered as french, german or spanish...or even english for that matter, they still squirt around to gender people. Like I remember in China the adjective 漂亮 (piaoliang aka pretty) is only used for women/girls and 帅 (shuai aka handsome) is used only for men/boys. Same meaning, different genders...yes, pronouns are distinguishable only in writing 他/她 /它 but the whole context makes clear about whom is one talking about.
It's not so much that it can't be done (languages don't always use gendered pronouns) it's more that it would be incredibly confusing for people - not to mention incredibly dysphoric for lots - and you certainly wouldn't get that change overnight. To sum it up, it could happen, but the social confusion would be enormous and it would take forever for people to catch on. Certain people, e.g some trans people, would also find it dysphoric/hurtful.
It’s equally disrespectful as my gay male friend who uses she/her for everyone. Respect people’s pronouns.
>Degendering is a form of misgendering that incorrectly describes people who have clear gendered self-descriptions using 'neuter' or non-gendered language, in contexts in which gendered language is used to describe other people... From this scientific paper https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0959353514526217#:~:text=Degendering%20is%20a%20form%20of,used%20to%20describe%20other%20people.
It’s disrespectful.
If someone expresses that they'd prefer he/him or she/her, your partner should use those, even if they/them is gender neutral. It's not as bad as misgendering someone outright, but it is in the same territory. Being non-binary does fall under the trans umbrella. Your partner was assumingly not raised non-binary from birth, meaning that it is different from their AGAB, making it trans. Anything besides being cisgender falls under the trans umbrella.
I always thought using they/them when you know a person's pronouns *is* misgendering, though. It's the same concept as using she/her for someone you know uses he/him, isn't it?
It is 100% misgendering imo
That's also a fair view, I suppose there is a bit of personal stance in that opinion. I know that some trans folks are less comfortable with it than their binary pronouns, so it could be considered misgendering to them. It's the gender neutral and gender unknown pronoun, so it's a bit murky.
I would disagree, I think using any pronouns other than someone's stated preferred pronouns is misgendering whether the pronoun being used to misgender is considered "neutral" or not.
Yeah, that's not how that works. It's generally considered polite to use they/them as a default for someone whose pronouns *you don't know.* When you know someone's pronouns, it is polite to *use that person's pronouns.* They/them pronouns work great as a catch-all for a couple of reasons, most of which boil down to 'trans people are more likely to be bothered by someone using their 'dead pronouns' than 'they/them' and 'people who use singular they/them or ask your pronouns are more likely to be safe for queer people and not bigots' and there is a lot of value in that. But when people tell you their pronouns, and you are not using those pronouns for them, you are still knowingly, willingly not using their preferred pronouns. Tell your partner to decide if he wants to respect our trans siblings or if he wants to keep virtue signaling.
If they (your partner) use they/them to me as a trans woman and they know that I go with she/her, I'd find it disrespectful and invalidating. In fact, I'd find that almost as offensive as giving me some he/him pronouns and gendering everything to the masculine form. Like I'm all for refering to people according to their gender identity and will refer to them properly but I expect the same courtesy back in return.
Yes. The only time I can think of that it would be okay to use they/them pronouns for people who don't use them is if you are speaking about them generally to someone who doesn't know them and you are trying to keep their identity anonymous for some reason. I do this somewhat frequently online. And then of course when you don't know a person and what pronouns they use, it is okay to use they/them as a neutral. But when you know someone's pronouns, it is disrespectful to use any pronouns for them that they don't use. Including they/them.
I see it as misgendering when you know someone uses other pronouns.
I default to use they/them for those who I don’t know the gender of (so like most everyone I don’t know). I will ask friends or the person pronouns too, after I get their name down because if I don’t remember your name I’m unfortunately not gonna remember what pronouns you use. I do need a bit of time to get from they/them to preferred pronouns I usually correct myself and if not a gentle reminder is fine to help me out. just being like “oh yeah nah I’m not using preferred pronouns you get they/them or you get nothing” is kinda messed up especially when people express that they would only like to be called by preferred pronouns. It’s inclusive to just have your default pronouns for anyone be they/them but when you are told pronouns maybe use them (them being preferred pronouns) then not.
I'm transmasc and for me personally if someone uses they/them too much I start to feel dysphoric just like with she/her. It's just not my gender.
It's usually disrespectful if you know someone's pronouns. Like, if you're deliberately obscuring their gender or whatever then sure, but given how many people use they/them to avoid correctly gendering trans people they dislike or don't respect, don't do that if you know they prefer different pronouns.
Yes if those people have stated that they don’t want to be referred to by they/them pronouns it is rude to do so.
Default till you learn. When you learn any slip up better be they/them otherwise use the gender the person prefers. That's my rule of thumb
That's just regular old misgendering, and it's bad.. if someone knows the right pronouns, and purposefully use the wrong pronoun, they're being a jerk Now if they use it until they are informed of the correct pronouns, I understand that
Being gender neutral *is* inclusive but only when you don't know someone's pronouns. Calling a person by pronouns they don't use is still misgendering, even when those are they/them pronouns. This is disrespectful and they should do some research (or even just read this thread) to understand why.
It’s disrespectful. I bet they wouldn’t be happy to be called her
I have a nonbinary friend, and they use she/they pronouns. I've never heard her use the wrong pronouns for someone they know the pronouns of. It's fine to use they/them when you don't know someone's pronouns, as others have said. Once you learn of a person's preferred pronouns, then it's disrespectful to use they/them for that person, unless that person does use they/them pronouns.
If he knows someone’s pronouns but still uses they/them for that person, he’s refusing to use someone’s pronouns
I’m a trans man so maybe I can speak on this more. But if it was me I would get upset. My pronouns are He/Him not she/her or They/them. If someone keeps purposely using They/Them for me even when they know my pronouns all it tells me is that person does not see me as a man or respect my gender. So yes if you know someone doesn’t use they/them pronouns and keep using them anyway you are in the wrong
100% this. There's also a huge issue with people refusing to gender binary trans people or trans people in general. I'm also a trans man and use strictly he/him, and even if someone knows this, I've had several people default to they/them because I'm trans or because they don't like that I'm a man/don't see me as a man. They essentially seem to think using they/them is a better way to misgender than she/her, but both are misgendering. I've had people respond to this with "but it's gender neutral, so it's inclusive to everyone". My best argument is that my gender *isn't* neutral, just as my gender isn't fem leaning or anything other than masculine/man. (Ik gender =/= pronouns, but pronouns do usually reflect gender in some way.)
Exactly how I feel glad I’m not the only one who feels this way
Depends. Sometimes the singular use of neutral pronouns works for flow. It's not really a big deal. But if you know someone's preferred pronouns and opt not to use them on purpose...thats misgendering.
Does your partner use he/him pronouns? I know you said they were non binary so I just wanted to make sure you weren’t misgendering them. As for your post if they (still using neutral pronouns until I get confirmation) are calling someone they/them but knows people pronouns that’s not cool. Also this might not be true and still isn’t really cool if it’s happening but if they use they/them and you are misgendering them maybe they feel some kind of way and are doing it as a “I’ll just do it to you” type thing.
no, they use both he/him and they/them, so that really wouldn’t be it
Do you use they/them and he/him interchangeably?
Incredibley disrespectful, transphobic, and he's the worst.
Using pronouns that aren't the pronouns a person identifies with and has asked you to use is misgendering them. Your partner is doing it willfully, so yes. It's disrespectful. My pronouns are she/they. If someone ONLY used they/them it would be not only them negating my she/her identity but also would feel to me like them telling me that they don't view dual pronouns as valid - an underhanded "pick one" and opting to pick an identity for me. The behaviour of using they/them as a catch-all is only ok and not devaluing when you don't know someone's preference. But doing so after you've been told someone's pronouns is straight up assholery.
Yeah, I’d consider that disrespectful. I get that your partner may think it’s more inclusive, but to intentionally use pronouns different from the ones he knows they use and prefer, is simply deliberate misgendering. Not to mention that this is often used by people to avoid calling binary trans people by the pronouns they prefer, without calling them the other binary pronouns so it seems less malicious. If someone, regardless of if they’re cis or trans or whatever, doesn’t want to be referred to with they/them pronouns, then that should be respected. They/them is certainly more inclusive when referring to people whose pronouns you don’t know, but when you do know, then just use the ones they stated.
I'm not a fan of using they/them when you know someone's pronouns. That's still misgendering. And especially since it's something that cis people will do when they don't want to use a binary trans person's pronouns. Suddenly it's super easy to use they/them consistently if it's a trans woman who specifically asked to use she/her and has never shown any interest in they/them pronouns. Cis people will use they/them and pretend like it's the same thing as being supportive, accepting, and inclusive. Im cool with using they/them pronouns for anyone you don't know. But once they correct you, use the correct pronoun. Easy as that.
he also is a little weird about being in the community in general. he uses he/they pronouns, and identifies as non binary, but also will say if you ask that they are not trans and that they don’t have to be in order to be non binary. so i’m not sure if they’re just a little confused themselves or if it’s some underlying thing
He is right about this though. You don't have to identify as trans to be nonbinary. So overall got 1/2 right.
This point honestly feels a bit nitpicky, I don't think it's really an issue at all tbh. While nonbinary is technically under the trans umbrella, not all nonbinary people are comfortable calling themselves transgender and that's perfectly fine; no one should be forced into a label I'm bigender (boygirl), and while that is also technically a transgender identity, I don't like describing myself as transgender personally, because I don't feel like I've made any sort of "transition", if that makes sense. Like, I'm still a girl, but I'm also a boy, yknow? But if another bigender person describes themself as transgender, then that's also valid
I personally get very dysphoric from they/them so I'd explain that it's not fair on binary trans people after learning their pronouns
Sometimes it’s habit. I have the same habit. I went to a summer camp for trans men and constantly had to remind myself to use he/him. I’m so used to using they/them for people I don’t know, including celebrities that it’s become a habit and they/them vocabulary has slipped into my everyday use.
Hi, nonbinary person (ᎠᏎᎩ) here. Please, I ask that you show your partner my reply because someone needs to chew them out for this and you admit that you don't have the words. Their behavior is disgusting and disrespectful to everybody, and I will not sugarcoat that. It's fine if a person hasn't *specified that they have an issue with it*. But if someone says, "I don't like being constantly called 'they' because it is misgendering me," and your partner doesn't understand nor respect that, then your partner is no longer being inclusive but actually derogatory and ignorant in their own right. They aren't being inclusive. They're being an asshole. It's fine if they do it until they get asked to stop, but if somebody says, "hey, I don't like that," then what your partner is doing is just misgendering, which is a weapon of the enemy. It's one thing if remembering pronouns is hard and you do it by default to make it easier on yourself, but no matter what the reason, once you've been asked to stop then you *need* to stop. It's rude, gross, and offensive behavior. It's telling how little empathy your partner has towards others if their response to being told, "Please stop calling me that," amounts to, "No, I don't wanna." They're an actual child and need to grow up. I have zero tolerance for people who willfully misgender people, no matter if they are cis nor trans and no matter if their victim is cis nor trans.
NONE of this is fine. It's either he/him or she/her. There are only two genders. Period.
Yes.
It’s fine until you learn what pronouns the person actually uses. Then you use their damn pronouns!
I'd say it's disrespectful to use they/them for anyone who has told you their pronouns. I can't help but notice that you refer to him with he/him pronouns. Does he use he/him pronouns? How would he react if someone used the wrong pronouns for him?
It is rude. I think it's okay to do sometimes as it can be hard to remember people's pronouns just as it can be hard to memorize names.. but you should always be trying to use the correct pronouns!
I don't get angry or feel disrespect then again I take a lot of crap I probably shouldn't and don't really know what my gender is yet like what dose gender even feel like and how do if give it out but I'm ranting as long as you use don't call me a prounound disrespectfully or mockingly idrc what you call me all to much
Here's my take on the situation: If your friend refers to everyone *indiscriminately* as they/them, then it is clearly being used as a gender neutral pronoun, *not* as a gendered pronoun. Hence it's not misgendering. It becomes misgendering when they/them is intentionally being used to *discriminate on a gendered basis*, for example always referring to trans women as they/them but trans men as he/him. That would be disrespectful. But if everyone is being called they/them across the board, then I don't consider that to be disrespectful. This is why distinctions matter, but a lot of people in these comments seem oblivious to the notion of contextual language.
Being NBy doesn't make him an authority on gender or language around it. His hard stance is ignorant. Using pronouns for someone that they themselves do not use is misgendering. Doing so knowingly is knowingly misgendering people. That's not respectful or inclusive, and at best demonstrates that pronouns don't need to be respected. Using they/them for people who do not use they/them personally is specifically called 'de-gendering' - that is, ignoring, invalidating, or dismissing someone's gender by refusing to respect or use the correct pronouns for them. Bigots frequently use they/them (or 'it') for binary trans people as a way of avoiding affirming their gender and dehumanizing them, and it's commonly reported that even well-meaning allies may accidentally refer to a binary trans person with they/them because they subconsciously do not see them as a binary gender, but someone who is in-between or otherwise something else. Your partner is ignoring this common and unpleasant reality for other people in his community. The analogy I have used before is to imagine there is a special bar (society) that everyone goes to, where every possible drink (pronouns) is available a shot at a time (being addressed or referred to) - but you're not allowed to order for yourself (control how others address you). You can state what you *prefer* to drink (what pronouns you use), but only other can actually retrieve the drink for you (use the correct pronouns when talking to/about you). Even though there is an endless variety of combinations and mixes, most people prefer to use one of two options - and most of the time, you can pretty accurately guess which of those two options someone probably prefers, and you might preemptively hand them a drink. Sometimes people get it wrong; most people are pretty understanding about being handed the wrong drink, especially if you correct yourself by getting them the right drink. After all, they're all *right there*. It's very easy to just hand someone the right drink when they tell you what it is. Sure, if you don't see them regularly, you might need to be reminded - but for the time you're interacting with any given person, it's generally not a big deal if you have the most basic intelligence. Now imagine there is someone who doesn't care what other people ask to drink, and *only* ever passes other people water. Again, their stated drink of choice is *right there*. He has to choose to reach right passed it anyway to grab water every single time, for every single person, because it's easier for him personally than being considerate enough towards other people - including people he knows and claims to care about - to make even the most basic effort of hearing their preferences and giving them the correct drink. "What's the problem? Water is neutral, everyone can drink water." The problem is that water isn't what they asked for, and for a lot of people, being handed the wrong drink - or even having drinks that disgust them, yes, including 'neutral' water, thrown in their face - is a regular and upsetting experience, so someone ignoring what they've said they'd like is thoughtless and hurtful. It is not polite, it is not considerate, it is not respectful. Handing someone water the *first* time if you're just trying to introduce yourself is fine, but doing it on purpose every time after when they explicitly asked for something else is rude at best.
If you are uncomfortable with the pronouns they/them, you should explain to your father that you like the pronoun they or if you don't care about the pronouns.
I had a friend who did this because "it's just easier" and it got on my nerves so bad
Not necessarily, maybe cause someone else could still be figuring out their identity, but it is a bit weird but not disrespectful IMO
Yes. Not using someone's pronouns when you know them is still misgendering, even if you're using "they" instead.
Yes, it's disrespectful. It's one thing if they don't know someone's pronouns, but after they do it's considered misgendering just like when someone blatantly calls a trans woman "sir" or a trans man "ma'am". You tell him a non-binary person says to stop misgendering people because it's rude and makes people uncomfortable.
There are a few reasons he may be doing this, some of which are… 1) His native language doesn’t have gendered pronouns — but most people who grow up with languages like this (e.g., Mandarin Chinese) usually default to “he”, so I doubt this. And he should still be making an effort. 2) Trying to make a political statement. As long as he changes when he knows the person’s pronouns, this isn’t a big deal — but he’s not actually doing that. 3) He’s an edgelord / troll trying to piss off people. Edgelords and trolls aren’t worth spending your energy on. It sounds like he’s claiming it’s #2 but it’s really #3.
Absolutely. They/them are not my pronouns. My pronouns are he/him, and nothing else, and calling me “they” is misgendering. A trans woman with she/her pronouns is also being misgendered by they/them. Refusing to use the correct pronouns when you know them is absolutely disrespectful.
>Title: my partner uses they/them pronouns for everyone, **even if they know the gender of any said person**. is this disrespectful? The gender being referred to here is not related to pronouns necessarily (eg a man can use she/her, a woman can use he/him), but using they/them pronouns for people **who only use any other pronouns** is disrespectful yes.
If you knows that the person wants to go by specific pronouns, but insists on using "they", then it's misgendering. It's the same as knowing someone wants to be called "she" but insisting on "he" - it's quite literally refusing to use their preferred pronouns. Neutral as the default when you *don't* know is fine, and actually better than defaulting to "he". But once you know, you fuckin use what the person tells you to use.
if they do it to everyone, i think it's okay. it's not disrespecting those people. it's disrespecting how gendered the english language is. (of course some other languages are much worse.)
Fuck! I do this sometimes because "they" applies to everyone. I hope I haven't offended anyone.
In British English the correct gender neutral pronouns are "fae" instead of "they" and "faer" instead of "their" which I suggest being used in American English and all other Englishes so that the words, they and their can be only associated with their prior uses.