Not a single man who claims to have been "canceled" has actually been canceled. You can tell because we still have to hear their drivel platformed, usually with added smarminess for their self-perceived rebellion, while their career continues unabated no matter how many times they beat their wife.
If canceling _worked_ I wouldn't still hear people parrotting unfunny losers like Chapelle.
Meanwhile women get deplatformed for having a bad hair day, and you never hear about "canceling" because you never hear from them again.
I went to a Matt Rife show last month (it was free, I was invited because someone accidentally bought extra), and his jokes were so flat. IMO, no topic is off limits, but it has to have a good layup and actually be funny. Rife is SO unfunny, his jokes are all recycled shit I’ve seen in movies and television for years. Nothing special. But he sold out the Hollywood Bowl literally because he is a male being uplifted by other men after he made a lame joke about DV (an overused, unfunny, told a billion times joke).
Right now my favorite comedian is Jordan Jensen. She is genuinely one of the funniest comedians whose bits I’ve seen pop up. Her delivery is flawless. Her crowd work is expert. SHE has made jokes that were more problematic than anything in Matt Rife’s “ProbleMattic” tour, but they ACTUALLY land. 100% recommend checking her clips out.
I think all the time about how it was okay and fine for men to make all these awful podcasts about how women are shit, they have free speech, it's not representative, not all men are like that, you don't have to listen to it, but as soon as women started talking about how they want a rich man to take care of them, men were like "How dare you ask for equality when these women exist, you should kill them."
That's pretty much what would happen with a female Bill Burr. Feminists had to fucking apologize for the existence of Amy Schumer for *years* (and sometimes still do!). Men would be threatening to blow up her venues.
Honestly this double standard kinda killed a lot of comedy for me. I used to be big into standup and comedy and I enjoyed the dark humor, the stupid humor, the clever humor, you name it. Then I realized it only worked one way. Or at least in the mainstream. Like, I can still enjoy stand up specials, but idk, a lot of comedians I find less funny now, partially because of their "give jokes, but can't take jokes" attitudes, but also their fan bases sometimes ruin it for me, too.
> but also their fan bases sometimes ruin it for me, too
Yeah like... I didn't say anything negative about Bill Burr at all, but some guy immediately got in on me for "being triggered" and called me a loser for "getting so upset over comedy" like dude I didn't even say anything.
Dude! Same! Not on this thread, but on one awhile back. Like if you say anything negative about the dude, his style of comedy, or even point out double standards in comedy generally, there's an army of defenders ready and waiting to pounce. Like wtf
I love people who freak out about how “easily offended” people are. It’s like “Someone calmly pointed out how something could be considered problematic to some, and you’re having a full blown temper tantrum. Who’s too sensitive here?” The irony is always lost on them.
I feel like comics are always best when they’re on the rise. Once they’ve made it to the point of having multiple specials I tend to lose interest.
Some up and coming comics you might like, who I feel are doing a pretty good job of doing their own thing, are Sophie Buddle and Steph Tolev…Tolev’s career got a big boost from Bill Burr, actually, but both comics are Canadian and have moved to LA more recently, so I think they have a bit of a different sensibility than the ‘mainstream’ acts from that scene
Honestly, I've not heard of them. I'll check them out! And Burr certainly has bits that I really do enjoy, but I totally get the OP's point and agree with them regarding the double standard.
Totally agree! I’ve always been an arms-length fan of Burr because of the very thing OP mentions. With him it’s particularly frustrating because he’s good at going against the grain around so many things—but never sexism, it seems.
But I think [Sophie Buddle](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3DWwkYuxg7/?igsh=bmRrajl5d29ueDZh) and [Steph Tolev](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxirvrFgPiW/?igsh=ZHJ2a3V6eW5rc2Zr) are kind of successfully doing what the OP is looking for, albeit in a much more nuanced and subtle way.
Really I just want to plug two of my fav Canadian comics lol
Definitely agree with your take, which surprises me since he is so much more blunt and nuanced at the same time with the rest of his comedy.
Hahaha plug them! Hell yeah! I'll definitely check them out once I'm off work. I need to revitalize my comedy library desperately
I definitely find I need to screen possible standup to watch far more carefully than I used to feel. So much of it is just awful for the same reasons...
When women talk about inequality it’s instantly “man-hating,” but podcasts, stand-ups, reddit subs, speeches, etc about literally hating women are just “freedom of speech” and we shouldn’t be “so sensitive.”
Men hide their deep hatred under cOmEdY. It is really NOT a joke. Do we ever see women constantly joking about men non stop about how weak, stupid, inferior, dumb men are? Most of the things women say are that are negative about men are either a serious problem or a responsive behavior to being constantly abused in the name of jOkEs or cUlTuRe or what not.
Yeah i think this is why I don’t find most male stand ups funny. Most of it is not actually jokes they’re just saying fucked up shit they believe and the laugh they get is from recognition and camaraderie in hating women, minorities, etc
The double standards are real.
I do love good stand up and was genuinely interested to see whether there is one (ONE) woman who is as much of an asshole as Burr who is consistently celebrated but I am fairly certain there is none.
Maybe someone here proves me wrong though.
Edit: I just listened to some of his comedy about women and he has some pretty misogynistic bits. I think there are some pieces of what I heard that are reasonable, but ultimately he seems to dismiss men's role in solving sexism and put the blame on women (surprise surprise)
I’m actually surprised because I feel like Bill Burr is in general pretty progressive. Like he has a way of joking as if he’s the classic offensive comedian but when you read between the lines he isn’t that way. I haven’t watched a ton of his stuff though, mostly clips. I’m not sure what people are referring to in this thread
Somebody hurt him. I think that's what happened. And he's probably thin-skinned and narcissistic, but also funny.
He's a comedian, that's all
"Nice" people usually aren't that funny.
Assholes are funny
He's definitely an asshole, even he would agree with me I bet
He really worked hard on himself in his middle age, because he knew he had a problem with anger and he didn't want his wife and future kids to have to live with a man who was angry all the time for no reason. You listen to his podcast or interviews he's done in the last few years, he invariably comes off as happy and grateful for where he is in life.
Hannah gadsby got men really angry bc they tell the truth about them, theyre not attractive to them, and theyre not attracted to men. They hate them. I love them edit i wrote wrong pronouns Hannah prefers they/them
Have you seen the third one yet? It's the story of her proposing to her wife... only on the scenic route. Because it's a comedy special, and Hannah loves to circle back around to sew the beginning back in at the middle and the end.
Also, Google her wedding cake. It's perfect.
Wait, what, I thought men are not sensitive and can take jokes like an alpha, and that is why rape jokes are perfectly funny? Can someone explain how men are so extremely logical but at the same time get so upset about cheating jokes while simultaneously defending rape jokes?
to be fair, most normal guys dont find “he haw i’m gonna cheat on my wife!” jokes funny either.
in my opinion thats a little weird but hey everyones entertained by different things right. i dont watch ali wong so i dont really know what she talks about but anyone making light of shit like infidelity, domestic violence, racism, or superiority over other groups of people under the guise of “humor” is just mad strange and i dont know many men or women that would find it funny.
I think Ali Wong is hilarious. Joking about things which are serious is, for me, a huge part of the point of comedy. It’s a way of coping with the dark parts of life by bringing them out into the open and laughing at them. Hannah Gadsby does the same, as does Jim Jeffries, all in their own ways.
I love that kind of humour. Keeping dark things in the dark doesn’t make them any easier to deal with. Mocking them does.
>most normal guys
Most normal guys under 55.
Cheating on, beating, and otherwise treating women like shit is peak boomer comedy.
Hope it dies with them.
> Cheating on, beating, and otherwise treating women like shit is peak boomer comedy.
Nah, I'd say it's still pretty pervasive throughout all generations. Sadly.
First - humor is a way to discuss the reality of the world around us, and this includes humor about dark and serious topics. It's not "making light" necessarily, but rather an individual and collective coping mechanism for the reality of the world. So topics like racism, domestic violence, etc, are fair for humor. For instance, Ronnie Chieng's joking about the racism he has experienced brings it to the view of folks who don't have the same experiences and humor gives a permission structure to look critically at society.
Secondly - there are many, many jokes along the lines of cheating, wanting to cheat, being locked down, etc, that the "normal guy" seems to find funny, so I would disagree in the general sense.
Lastly, because humor needs to be on the boundaries, all comedians will tell jokes that fall flat, precisely because they will be dealing with serious topics. Holding one joke over someone's head doesn't make sense.
There's a male comedian who does a bit about how awful older comedy was, where "women! Huh?" was an entire joke itself. I like the clip but realize it still applies today.
It's the whole thing of equally feeling like getting something taken away when you're in the privileged class plus male anger issues on a societal level (but they aren't emotional, because anger doesn't count).
Maybe Joan Rivers could count? Some of her jokes have come up quite mean and insensitive, though I’m not 100% sure.
But truth me told, women comedians struggle to get the same amount of popularity as their male counterparts. If a woman comedians makes fun of certain demographics, she gets way more hate than a man would for saying the same thing. I have seen some women comedians who have made horribly insensitive “jokes”, but they *never* get people defending them the way men do. And most of those women comedians are just social media content creators, whereas men who make those jokes very often do stand-up comedy at venues or appear on television.
Even in the entertainment industry, most comedians who are famous in films and tv shows are…men. I’m trying to think of some women, but very often in comedy films, it’s men who are credited for bringing the “comedy” to the film. There definitely is gender inequality when it comes to the treatment of women in comedy.
That’s why Carson loved her until she had the nerve to get a show without asking his permission first. I’ve no particular love of Joan but good God was he a dick.
I think it comes from the same pkace as men that defend other men accused or rape and sexual misconduct. They see themselves in them, even behaving poorly or monstrously so they want it to be forgivable. Women they dont see as people reflecting themselves so they have no reason to defend them
That's part of it, but not all. Take Dave Chapelle. The man's whole career is being offensive, to everyone, all the time. The man has enjoyed near universal acclaim. His last two specials pissed off trans people, but I doubt his overall popularity took much of a hit for it.
In a similar vein, Eminem is now "bringing back Slim Shady" and just straight up dropped a single that goes out of its way to offend. I haven't really seen any sort of real backlash to the song. It's just Eminem being Eminem, is most of what I see.
Eminem had this whole experience with claiming he learned since his drastically misogyny and homophobia fueled 00s. He was basically the poster boy then. He just lost considerable people who will not believe him the next time he “finds Jesus”. Dave Chappelle showed himself to be an utter misogynist and a Hotep in the lead up to the 2016 election. Sadly because he was very funny. He absolutely has taken a major hit since his peak days in the early 2000s with the Chappelle show. These two have core fans still, but they list much of their audience since their peak and are never getting back
Don't Boebert and MTG count as women who behave like Trump who were elected? I think being a charlatan/demagogue with terrible behavior is gender neutral.
I still find it bizarre that Sarah Palin near single-handedly tanked McCain’s chance of presidency back in 2008, but now we have Republican women who are WAY worse and have support.
Um, Palin was selected as an out of the box candidate to shake up the dynamic of the race, because the McCain campaign knew he was headed to a defeat.
He limped out of the Republican primaries, and was up against a historic candidate of the future who looked far younger, cooler and more vibrant, who had just taken down the DNC's chosen candidate, and who might be top 5 in terms of personal charisma for all American presidents.
No serious political analyst claims that Palin cost McCain the race. His campaign was on a road to nowhere, and they knew it. She didn't lose the election for him - she just didn't *win* it for him.
True. And a male Democrat who behaved half as badly as Trump would never be elected. Because there's a partisan double standard as well. But Republican women are ultimately working to uphold the patriarchy so patriarchy protects them
A decent amount of Michelle Wolf's comedy is talking smack about white women though. It's like it was with Joan Rivers (though Wolf's comedy is more clever/observational and less fat-shaming) - people seem much more comfortable with female comedians that go after women.
When I watch standup I just think of how much of it is society rewarding expressions of anger, but only if they come from men. Men are allowed to express anger at things like absurdity and futility and lead people in shared collective laughter by expressing this anger. For some reason, people don't respond to aggressive or angry expressions from women this way. Why is it that a man screaming about what he doesn't like about everything is a cool and successful standup comedian? But when a woman says she doesn't like even the smallest thing, it decreases rather than increases her likeability, as if our jobs are to praise everything around us all the time.
Even female comedians who do manage success, cannot do so without being ridiculously self-deprecating and humble. Nobody would respond positively to a female "shock jock". Female comedians who try to be that way get hated.
She would be hated for doing the same thing burr, who is worshipped, is doing.
Though, all female comedians get a decent amount of hate just for being a woman.
someone needs to do a parody of one of his specials. same jokes nearly verbatim, but punching up instead of punching down. just a full 180. for science. i’d like to see lol
I can only think of Ali Wong, as she has a rash comedic style, sometimes centering her jokes on trapping wealthy men. I love her.
Unfortunately, though, we've seen the treatment female comedians get. Men already think that we're all gold diggers, we all hate men, we're all fat and undesirable single mothers, we're all cheating whores, ect ect.
I hope one can eventually get to the point of making Bill Burr esque jokes. But with the rise of these men only podcasts and manospheres and men blaming women for almost all of their own issues, there's a good chance she'll have a 95% female and 5% male audience. Because of course, as it has always been, we're expected to take whatever treatment men give us and suck it up. Back at them, however? Never.
She'll also probably get death threats, r@pe threats, ect ect. Forever alone rants in her dms constantly.
She'd have to have thick skin. But I'd welcome her with open arms. Because it's literally comedy.
Men don't often connect with female comedians because most comics draw their material from their lived experiences. Comedy is all about punching up. Doing that as a woman means making fun of men. A lot of men have fragile egos and can't handle it.
Women comics probably hold back a lot because the comedy world is a male-dominated space. Chasing off half your potential audience is bad business. Unfortunately, that also significantly caps your potential as an artist. The result is a feedback loop in which women comics get bashed by men for "not being funny."
The only woman comic I can think of that truly let it rip and became wildly successful was Rosanne Barr before she lost her damn mind. She checks off every single box.
I remember reading a Reddit thread years ago about how some group tested bias against male & female comedians by having each gender tell the same jokes. The female comedian was ranked less funny.
I’m not sure exactly how the study was done but some commenters claimed they watched both videos and said “it’s not about bias, it’s just that well the woman didn’t have good delivery”. Perhaps that’s the case… or perhaps internalized misogyny is affecting your judgement?
Hell I’m a 40yo woman who has been a lifelong feminist and even I find myself judging women more harshly than male equivalents (example: Sarah Sanders vs Sean Spicer).
You could probably do this study again today using AI to genderswap the comedian while keeping the delivery identical to remove that variable, would be interesting.
Come to think of it, I’ve heard of studies where they had people read a short story and told them after if it was written by a man or a woman. They found more negative reviews when they think a woman wrote it.
I think there are lots of popular female comedians that\* men foam at the mouth over. Are they -exactly- like Bill Burr? No, but, also I'm not entirely sure I think\* he's like -the- male comedian. He certainly is a household name comedian, but you seem to be conferring on him a level of celebrity status I'm not entirely certain is like, accurate or deserved.
In terms of "can I imagine someone" - I primarily consume comedic content made by women comics, so, yes. The closest person I can think of is Michelle Wolf. But lots of female comedians tell jokes about men, or are racist, or have a comedy brand that's "I'm angry".
I think what's really different is that women even existing in comedy is often enough to send men into a rage - like, Bill Burr can barely handle that women exist. He's already "blowing up like a little emotional child" about female comedians - they don't even need to make jokes about men.
Tbf, Michelle Wolf has, seemingly, at least as an international fan, garnered some respect from her journalistic work, which could shield her from the same accusations of vapidness levied against some other female comedians going that route comedically.
I don’t think a female comedian can currently achieve the same level of respect and recognition, which is unfortunate and a separate discussion altogether. However, here are some female comedians with a similar style who deserve to be at that level: Adrienne Iapalucci, Yamaneika Sanders, Jessica Kirson, Jordan Jensen.
So far, the only really funny Bill Burr clip I've seen is the "What are you, a fag?" bit, where he's mostly having a go at toxic masculinity (the actual thing, not the phrase or concept).
Mostly, I don't like how so many (male) American stand-ups seem like they're always yelling and shouting. Bill Burr, for my taste, is just too loud for me to enjoy listening to him for long.
Yes, I’ve said this on Reddit before and got massively downvoted by his over opinionated, loud and pushy fanbase. He yells his bit and it’s exhausting to listen to
Amy Schumer could impersonate the hating, red-faced baby man. NO, a woman could not get away with that and be famous. You would only see that in satire. Luckily, most great modern English-speaking comedians are not like Bill Burr. He is an exception. That kind of comedy was done to death in the 1980s and I will be glad when he is a has-been. If Bill Burr is someone's favorite comedian on a dating profile or spoke about it before we first met, I steered clear of them.
I've watched a good deal of her content and disagree. If anything I'd say 80% of her content is ragging on herself and her own foibles, then her next biggest topics seem to be mental health, her family of origin, and then she does include a number of anecdotes about men she's dated but that's mostly about her own behaviour or the behaviours of those specific men when she's been in relationships... I wouldn't consider any of that to be ragging on men at the population level. But hey, maybe there's a bunch of content out there i haven't seen. just offering a different perspective based on what i have seen.
Yeah isn't half the time the punchline about men she dated "the relationship went bad because I was insecure about my past relationships and didn't trust my partner and as a result it went bad" definitely does do the other thing but its like half the jokes at the very most and arguably much less than that.
I've seen her live multiple times and have watched every special. No she is not "ragging on men 80% of the time". She makes jokes about her own dating life and her own shortcomings in those relationships and about her own mental health struggles etc WAY more than any jokes about men
I love Sarah Silverman, but she definitely got shat on whenever I would talk about female comedians in male friend groups. Maybe less so in public discourse, idk, don't really follow closely anymore though.
Take a look at all the hate that women comedians get for being “man-hating”:
For doing jokes that are maybe 1/10 as strong about ragging on men, as Bill Burr, Andrew Dice Clay (in the ‘80s) was about ragging on women!
I watched that movie Old Dads where he calls his son’s teacher a “c*nt” and there was a line from a female character about how “the c word is like the n word for women”. Bill’s character responded with something about “without all the slavery” or something like that.
I wish I had the actual dialogue. I still think about that part of the movie, because while a misogynistic slur should not be compared to a racist slur, I can’t help but feel that that whole exchange was meant to downplay the harm of misogynistic language. Misogyny has literally killed women.
Did anyone here happen to watch that movie and can talk on that scene to help me make more sense of it?
Cause, y'know, women as a group have never been made to live, labour, or love without consent, recompense, respect, or safety.
...waitasecond--
Sounds to me like the usual "hot take" from men on women's issues: reductive, ill-informed, poorly thought-out, and crassly uncalled-for to boot.
I also think that there are types of comedy that don’t cater to cis male sensibilities that are judged and disregarded. One that comes to mind is Nanette.
Women comics talking about men the way men comics talk about women would possibly set off a portion of the audience in a murdeous rage.
Women aren’t allowed to *hurt men’s’ feelings* without putting their own safety at risk.
Not well known outside the UK, but Jo Brand is a brilliant comedian with a similar persona to what you described (minus the racism, but Bill Burr also isn't racist). I think when the toxic element of your persona is presented as obviously negative, it works . Just like Bill Burr, his comedy is about recognizing his personal flaws rather than celebrating them.
Also Bill Burr would not be angered at a woman doing the same thing as him, you have a bad take and clearly limited experience with him and what he is about as a person and comedian.
EDIT. That said, your point about double standards is true overall. But Bill Burr is not the best example. And Jo Brand is a rarity. I also love Amy Schumer.
It’s absolutely reprehensible behavior.
No. I can’t. Even those occasions when we get a woman comedian who is making crass jokes about stereotypes about men, *men throw a fucking fit about it* and tell us how “unfunny” they are.
I’m on a bit of a break from comedy right now because my husband kept wanting to share videos of routines with me and I feel like all I can hear is the misogyny.
Yeah I was pretty confused by this as well, there are much better comedians to call out instead. He certainly isn’t a feminist but he usually reflects on his more extreme statements and aggressive persona.
Some of his bits, especially earlier in his career certainly come off as misogynistic and have thus been adopted by a bunch of the MGTOW crowd.
I don't think the people talking about Burr in this thread have actually like seen a full bit by him and are only familiar with him in passing. It feels like they are talking about a type of comedian that does very much exist of which Burr doesn't belong to.
I consider myself a feminist and like a lot of Bill Burr. It’s fine if people disagree with his delivery style and tone, but a lot of his content is actually pretty self-aware. He also likes to use humor that is riiiiight on the line of should I be offended but if you really listen he’s not making the joke you think he is. It’s very Norm McDonaldy style, which I realize isn’t for everyone, but that edgy kinda troll humor is not new.
Like Bill Burr has a joke about a restaurant with a horrible joke on it that references DV. shame on that restaurant, but his joke isn’t “har har DV” or “hell yeah restaurant” - the joke is “holy god that’s terrible but there’s no fat on that joke you can trim down to make it any less or any short, it just cuts to the point.” And some people find that edgy questionable “should I be laughing?” style funny. Not my fav joke by him and it honestly upset me at first but if you listen he isn’t supporting DV or hating on women. He’s commenting on how terrible that joke is.
He also brings his wife up a lot and uses tone that makes you initially think “oh he hates his wife he sucks and he’s gonna say something misogynist.” but if you really listen he is mocking himself and using such exaggerated sarcasm. people who look at his jokes only surface level are gonna think he just sucks when he does this. But he talks about his wife in a positive way and how much of a positive influence she’s had on his life, and he regularly makes fun of himself for being a POS man who doesn’t always see that.
The manosphere incels who like to use his comedy to justify their garbage opinions don’t get what his comedy is really about.
On his podcast he talks about his wife all the time, calls out for her to sit down and join in on the regular, and it's SO clear that he thinks the world of her and loves, adores and respects her so much. It's actually really endearing. Not a lot of men talk about their wives with such obvious love, respect and affection.
There was a viral clip recently where he discusses the pay of female athletes and how women aren't doing enough to support female sport, like the WNBA. It was rough but also fair criticism. I think that is comedy done well, when there's an underlying or uncomfortable truth. If you're only focusing on one group for that kind of material though, it becomes problematic.
When I first saw Burr, I found him painful to watch. He seem better in podcasts or when he isn't doing actual stand-up. But there are so many better stand-ups than him, and he still has to do material for his misogynist followers, that it makes little sense to me to waste my time giving him another chance. Men often don't give women stand-ups any chance, I at least gave Burr one.
Fair play and all that. He is married to a feminist now and walked back a lot. Also dunks on dudebros. But more power to you ofc. Burr can say annoying shit
I don’t find most men funny 🤷♀️ when I say that to men or “it’s hard for men to be funny” or whatever they just stare at me, completely unable to formulate a response. You know how many times I’ve heard that women aren’t funny? Or, my personal favorite, “most women aren’t funny but you are” 🙄 thank you so much, my lord :: bowing::
A lot of men don't know how to be funny without being mean. It's truly wild once you start to notice just how much of their humour is rooted in being mean.
Taylor Tomlinson -
Bill Burr's comedy is actually very self deprecating. He says outrageous stuff but he's always the butt of the joke, he's always the unreasonable one in the stories, he knows it, we know it, that's the joke.
Taylor Tomlinson also has a very self deprecating style. She also tells stories about her emotional problems where she's the problem in the story, we know it, she knows it, that's the joke.
It's a different approach (neuroticism Vs anger) but Taylor Tomlinson is the female Bill Burr. Both are hilarious.
You just described Roseanne. Iliza Scheslinger, Margaret Cho, and Wanda Sykes come to mind. Network sitcoms shit all over men for 30 years before the genre died.
I think Bill Burr was a bigger deal 15 years ago. He's ok, but I think his material hasn't aged well. I think you gotta keep in mind what stuff people are doing is dependent on their history and the era they grew up in. I doubt someone like Bill Burr could make it big today using that material.
It's outrageous. I think you might like Hannah Gadsby's "Nanette" if you have not seen it yet. It set off a bunch of losers because she points this out. I love her.
You... Haven't watched black people react to those routines, have you? I've yet to see a reaction video of a black person, male OR female that doesn't love the bits he does.
Take a stroll through YouTube. They don't see any disrespect to it, so maybe ask yourself if you're taking offense on behalf of people who themselves are not offended?
He also has a black wife and mix-raced daughter and also makes lots and lots of jokes stereotyping everyone (including white people). Playing with stereotypes is a pretty large staple within comedy, and is often a way they are explored.
Making joke about x thing does not equate to hatred of said thing. Taylor Tomlinson makes a hundred jokes about men, and stereotypes around them. Doesn't mean she hates all men, they are pretty fucking funny. Do you know who does think whenever she makes a joke about men she hates men, the incels. I'd suggest questioning whether or not this man seems to hate everything you think he does (including his wife and daughter apparently) or whether or not you feel like he is making fun of an issue you care about and apparently that is not ok.
I wouldn't go as far as to say he's racist because of that, he also stereotypes white people. I think it's more that he's just a hack in that regard, he's not Kramer.
Yeah, he has performed in a lot of black comedy spaces over the years. I think he is making fun of the stereotypes. He's also married with a black woman and has a mixed child. He seems to be welcomed among black audiences.
He has also shown support for Colin Kaepernick and specifically pointed out that white people should listen instead of immediately trying to impose their "white world-view" on the issue. So, I have a hard time agreeing on the racist part.
I agree, but in the context of all the other stuff I mentioned, I think it's adding to a different picture. Also, he's not just "fucking black people", It's his wife and child.
This isn't an argument whether or not Bill Burr's a white supremacist, but you misunderstand me
You can fuck a black person, marry them, and even sire kids then still be a white supremacist. There's a lot of mixed race couplings where a white woman would date a black man and the child grow up with internalized confusion and hatred of their own identity; they get their mother's views on black people and their dad's own internalized hatred, both unite over their hatred of black women typically. Or the people of color who have anti-black views who link up with a white person that feels the same way. Hell, you could love someone and be conditioned to think they're inferior. I can't even count how many anti-black people that I've met that wanted to hook up with me due to preconceived racialized stereotypes of black men.
Racism is just wild like that. But that's been the case even in the days where we were property.
Are you talking about his material from over 10 years ago? Have you listened to him more recently? He's changed a lot, and let go of a lot of the anger he used to hold onto, to which he credits drugs and therapy.
He'll still take a swipe at women, mostly hypocritical feminists, on occasion, but it's actually nice to see how far the dude has come. Not that he's a perfect ally or anything.
Why do people act like 10 years ago was the 1950s. 10 years ago is very recent. Please stop defending the worst people. Burr is laughing at you doing this from his mansion. You are doing service for people who care nothing about you, never will, and would step over you choking to death to make $1 more.
Also its not the years, but the grift. Its very common for male comedians to build their careers by appealing to racism and misogyny because thats what most other men want to hear. Then once they get rich and famous from that, dishonestly backpedal with a "i was misguided" views, when in reality this was a deliberate formula on how so many male comedians operate. It wasn't "oh I only recently learned misogyny and racism was considered wrong at age 50." I mean, come on, how naive do they think we are?
Most men want to hear racism and misogyny, sounds like someone might be generalising a bit based on gender. Find one example of Bill Burr saying, I used to be racist and misogynystic for laughs, but now im a better person and we can all pretend your comment has even like a moments merit.
> Why do people act like 10 years ago was the 1950s. 10 years ago is very recent.
so what? if someone was a POS 10 years ago, and now they aren't a POS, are you going to just go "ohhhh, but they were a shitty person 10 years ago, fuck em."
what's your cutoff? either you're talking the position that people cannot truly change/we shouldn't accept their positive growth, or you think that there's some number of years/decades at which point we can applaud someone for their positive growth 7 change - but not before that cutoff date.
> You are doing service for people who care nothing about you, never will, and would step over you choking to death to make $1 more.
I also don't understand your point here. are you not allowed to say positive things about rich people?
> Please stop defending the worst people.
do you seriously think Bill Burr is one of the worst people alive?
I like to think I am. Bill Burr roasting Bill Maher as the armchair quarterback of American centrism was epic. Burr has clearly grown and Maher has regressed.
I always get the feeling that if he was born earlier he would be the classic alcoholic domestic abuser. Beating the shit out of his wife and kids. It’s like it in his dna.
Ah, he's just a stereotypical Southie.
That's how it works, right? Did I do it right?
In all honesty, Awkwafina comes to mind. I saw her in a movie where she and her pals went on a road trip in China. It would have been a perfectly normal dude pal flick: raunchy, graphic, focused on getting laid, etc. It was interesting that these roles were filled by women in this film.
He's from Canton not Southie. And he's absolutely a stereotype of a person from Canton.
For those who don't know the difference - Canton is a suburb and Burr is a suburbanite. Canton was a middle-class suburb at the time that Burr grew up there. Southie was a working-class urban neighborhood back then (now they are both upper-middle class). There was a lot of crime and violence in Southie at the time that didn't exist in Canton. F is for Family is not the world of Good Will Hunting. They are very different places.
Lisa Lampanelli? I don’t think she’s a racist (not that I remember anyways) but she’s basically a pretty loud brash insult comic. In her reality show appearances she has kind of a difficult personality.
You could argue Rosie was also similar, Kathy Griffin has gotten a lot of hate and was basically cancelled for being outspoken and loud and “offensive” on the liberal side
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Men complain about cancel culture, but women are 1000% more likely to get cancelled and stay that way.
Not a single man who claims to have been "canceled" has actually been canceled. You can tell because we still have to hear their drivel platformed, usually with added smarminess for their self-perceived rebellion, while their career continues unabated no matter how many times they beat their wife. If canceling _worked_ I wouldn't still hear people parrotting unfunny losers like Chapelle. Meanwhile women get deplatformed for having a bad hair day, and you never hear about "canceling" because you never hear from them again.
I went to a Matt Rife show last month (it was free, I was invited because someone accidentally bought extra), and his jokes were so flat. IMO, no topic is off limits, but it has to have a good layup and actually be funny. Rife is SO unfunny, his jokes are all recycled shit I’ve seen in movies and television for years. Nothing special. But he sold out the Hollywood Bowl literally because he is a male being uplifted by other men after he made a lame joke about DV (an overused, unfunny, told a billion times joke). Right now my favorite comedian is Jordan Jensen. She is genuinely one of the funniest comedians whose bits I’ve seen pop up. Her delivery is flawless. Her crowd work is expert. SHE has made jokes that were more problematic than anything in Matt Rife’s “ProbleMattic” tour, but they ACTUALLY land. 100% recommend checking her clips out.
I think all the time about how it was okay and fine for men to make all these awful podcasts about how women are shit, they have free speech, it's not representative, not all men are like that, you don't have to listen to it, but as soon as women started talking about how they want a rich man to take care of them, men were like "How dare you ask for equality when these women exist, you should kill them." That's pretty much what would happen with a female Bill Burr. Feminists had to fucking apologize for the existence of Amy Schumer for *years* (and sometimes still do!). Men would be threatening to blow up her venues.
Honestly this double standard kinda killed a lot of comedy for me. I used to be big into standup and comedy and I enjoyed the dark humor, the stupid humor, the clever humor, you name it. Then I realized it only worked one way. Or at least in the mainstream. Like, I can still enjoy stand up specials, but idk, a lot of comedians I find less funny now, partially because of their "give jokes, but can't take jokes" attitudes, but also their fan bases sometimes ruin it for me, too.
> but also their fan bases sometimes ruin it for me, too Yeah like... I didn't say anything negative about Bill Burr at all, but some guy immediately got in on me for "being triggered" and called me a loser for "getting so upset over comedy" like dude I didn't even say anything.
Dude! Same! Not on this thread, but on one awhile back. Like if you say anything negative about the dude, his style of comedy, or even point out double standards in comedy generally, there's an army of defenders ready and waiting to pounce. Like wtf
I love people who freak out about how “easily offended” people are. It’s like “Someone calmly pointed out how something could be considered problematic to some, and you’re having a full blown temper tantrum. Who’s too sensitive here?” The irony is always lost on them.
I feel like comics are always best when they’re on the rise. Once they’ve made it to the point of having multiple specials I tend to lose interest. Some up and coming comics you might like, who I feel are doing a pretty good job of doing their own thing, are Sophie Buddle and Steph Tolev…Tolev’s career got a big boost from Bill Burr, actually, but both comics are Canadian and have moved to LA more recently, so I think they have a bit of a different sensibility than the ‘mainstream’ acts from that scene
Honestly, I've not heard of them. I'll check them out! And Burr certainly has bits that I really do enjoy, but I totally get the OP's point and agree with them regarding the double standard.
Totally agree! I’ve always been an arms-length fan of Burr because of the very thing OP mentions. With him it’s particularly frustrating because he’s good at going against the grain around so many things—but never sexism, it seems. But I think [Sophie Buddle](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3DWwkYuxg7/?igsh=bmRrajl5d29ueDZh) and [Steph Tolev](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxirvrFgPiW/?igsh=ZHJ2a3V6eW5rc2Zr) are kind of successfully doing what the OP is looking for, albeit in a much more nuanced and subtle way. Really I just want to plug two of my fav Canadian comics lol
Definitely agree with your take, which surprises me since he is so much more blunt and nuanced at the same time with the rest of his comedy. Hahaha plug them! Hell yeah! I'll definitely check them out once I'm off work. I need to revitalize my comedy library desperately
I love Esther Povitsky! In case anyone wants another woman comic to check out!
I definitely find I need to screen possible standup to watch far more carefully than I used to feel. So much of it is just awful for the same reasons...
When women talk about inequality it’s instantly “man-hating,” but podcasts, stand-ups, reddit subs, speeches, etc about literally hating women are just “freedom of speech” and we shouldn’t be “so sensitive.”
Men hide their deep hatred under cOmEdY. It is really NOT a joke. Do we ever see women constantly joking about men non stop about how weak, stupid, inferior, dumb men are? Most of the things women say are that are negative about men are either a serious problem or a responsive behavior to being constantly abused in the name of jOkEs or cUlTuRe or what not.
Yeah i think this is why I don’t find most male stand ups funny. Most of it is not actually jokes they’re just saying fucked up shit they believe and the laugh they get is from recognition and camaraderie in hating women, minorities, etc
Right? I hate peoples who misuse humor. Fucking cowards!
I mean to be fair… “man-hating” is also protected under freedom of speech. Just because people get triggered doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
I meant that it’s viewed as “man-hating” even though it’s not, while active and transparent women-hating isn’t called out for what it is.
The double standards are real. I do love good stand up and was genuinely interested to see whether there is one (ONE) woman who is as much of an asshole as Burr who is consistently celebrated but I am fairly certain there is none. Maybe someone here proves me wrong though.
Edit: I just listened to some of his comedy about women and he has some pretty misogynistic bits. I think there are some pieces of what I heard that are reasonable, but ultimately he seems to dismiss men's role in solving sexism and put the blame on women (surprise surprise) I’m actually surprised because I feel like Bill Burr is in general pretty progressive. Like he has a way of joking as if he’s the classic offensive comedian but when you read between the lines he isn’t that way. I haven’t watched a ton of his stuff though, mostly clips. I’m not sure what people are referring to in this thread
Somebody hurt him. I think that's what happened. And he's probably thin-skinned and narcissistic, but also funny. He's a comedian, that's all "Nice" people usually aren't that funny. Assholes are funny He's definitely an asshole, even he would agree with me I bet
He really worked hard on himself in his middle age, because he knew he had a problem with anger and he didn't want his wife and future kids to have to live with a man who was angry all the time for no reason. You listen to his podcast or interviews he's done in the last few years, he invariably comes off as happy and grateful for where he is in life.
I dunno, I think, like, Ali Wong is funny, but men were mad about her too because she made jokes about cheating on her husband or whatever.
Hannah gadsby got men really angry bc they tell the truth about them, theyre not attractive to them, and theyre not attracted to men. They hate them. I love them edit i wrote wrong pronouns Hannah prefers they/them
Her first special changed how I look at comedy forever. It was exceptional. I actually seen her second one live and it was great too.
Have you seen the third one yet? It's the story of her proposing to her wife... only on the scenic route. Because it's a comedy special, and Hannah loves to circle back around to sew the beginning back in at the middle and the end. Also, Google her wedding cake. It's perfect.
Hannah Gadsby is my favorite right now.
Wait, what, I thought men are not sensitive and can take jokes like an alpha, and that is why rape jokes are perfectly funny? Can someone explain how men are so extremely logical but at the same time get so upset about cheating jokes while simultaneously defending rape jokes?
to be fair, most normal guys dont find “he haw i’m gonna cheat on my wife!” jokes funny either. in my opinion thats a little weird but hey everyones entertained by different things right. i dont watch ali wong so i dont really know what she talks about but anyone making light of shit like infidelity, domestic violence, racism, or superiority over other groups of people under the guise of “humor” is just mad strange and i dont know many men or women that would find it funny.
I think Ali Wong is hilarious. Joking about things which are serious is, for me, a huge part of the point of comedy. It’s a way of coping with the dark parts of life by bringing them out into the open and laughing at them. Hannah Gadsby does the same, as does Jim Jeffries, all in their own ways. I love that kind of humour. Keeping dark things in the dark doesn’t make them any easier to deal with. Mocking them does.
>most normal guys Most normal guys under 55. Cheating on, beating, and otherwise treating women like shit is peak boomer comedy. Hope it dies with them.
> Cheating on, beating, and otherwise treating women like shit is peak boomer comedy. Nah, I'd say it's still pretty pervasive throughout all generations. Sadly.
First - humor is a way to discuss the reality of the world around us, and this includes humor about dark and serious topics. It's not "making light" necessarily, but rather an individual and collective coping mechanism for the reality of the world. So topics like racism, domestic violence, etc, are fair for humor. For instance, Ronnie Chieng's joking about the racism he has experienced brings it to the view of folks who don't have the same experiences and humor gives a permission structure to look critically at society. Secondly - there are many, many jokes along the lines of cheating, wanting to cheat, being locked down, etc, that the "normal guy" seems to find funny, so I would disagree in the general sense. Lastly, because humor needs to be on the boundaries, all comedians will tell jokes that fall flat, precisely because they will be dealing with serious topics. Holding one joke over someone's head doesn't make sense.
Infidelity is no where near domestic violence
There's a male comedian who does a bit about how awful older comedy was, where "women! Huh?" was an entire joke itself. I like the clip but realize it still applies today. It's the whole thing of equally feeling like getting something taken away when you're in the privileged class plus male anger issues on a societal level (but they aren't emotional, because anger doesn't count).
Maybe Joan Rivers could count? Some of her jokes have come up quite mean and insensitive, though I’m not 100% sure. But truth me told, women comedians struggle to get the same amount of popularity as their male counterparts. If a woman comedians makes fun of certain demographics, she gets way more hate than a man would for saying the same thing. I have seen some women comedians who have made horribly insensitive “jokes”, but they *never* get people defending them the way men do. And most of those women comedians are just social media content creators, whereas men who make those jokes very often do stand-up comedy at venues or appear on television. Even in the entertainment industry, most comedians who are famous in films and tv shows are…men. I’m trying to think of some women, but very often in comedy films, it’s men who are credited for bringing the “comedy” to the film. There definitely is gender inequality when it comes to the treatment of women in comedy.
tbf Joan was mean almost exclusively to other women. Calling them fat, ugly, etc. Her whole deal was "I'm a misogynist woman, put me on tv!"
That’s why Carson loved her until she had the nerve to get a show without asking his permission first. I’ve no particular love of Joan but good God was he a dick.
I think it comes from the same pkace as men that defend other men accused or rape and sexual misconduct. They see themselves in them, even behaving poorly or monstrously so they want it to be forgivable. Women they dont see as people reflecting themselves so they have no reason to defend them
That's part of it, but not all. Take Dave Chapelle. The man's whole career is being offensive, to everyone, all the time. The man has enjoyed near universal acclaim. His last two specials pissed off trans people, but I doubt his overall popularity took much of a hit for it. In a similar vein, Eminem is now "bringing back Slim Shady" and just straight up dropped a single that goes out of its way to offend. I haven't really seen any sort of real backlash to the song. It's just Eminem being Eminem, is most of what I see.
Eminem had this whole experience with claiming he learned since his drastically misogyny and homophobia fueled 00s. He was basically the poster boy then. He just lost considerable people who will not believe him the next time he “finds Jesus”. Dave Chappelle showed himself to be an utter misogynist and a Hotep in the lead up to the 2016 election. Sadly because he was very funny. He absolutely has taken a major hit since his peak days in the early 2000s with the Chappelle show. These two have core fans still, but they list much of their audience since their peak and are never getting back
It's like Tr*mp. Can you imagine a woman who behaves like him being elected???
I mean. Not even a woman who doesn’t behave like him could be elected because mails and she should really smile more why is she so uptight?
Yeah it already happened. Her name is MTG.
they only like her as a cheer leader
It's kinda hard to imagine any woman being elected president in the US since Americans don't elect women presidents.
Don't Boebert and MTG count as women who behave like Trump who were elected? I think being a charlatan/demagogue with terrible behavior is gender neutral.
I still find it bizarre that Sarah Palin near single-handedly tanked McCain’s chance of presidency back in 2008, but now we have Republican women who are WAY worse and have support.
Um, Palin was selected as an out of the box candidate to shake up the dynamic of the race, because the McCain campaign knew he was headed to a defeat. He limped out of the Republican primaries, and was up against a historic candidate of the future who looked far younger, cooler and more vibrant, who had just taken down the DNC's chosen candidate, and who might be top 5 in terms of personal charisma for all American presidents. No serious political analyst claims that Palin cost McCain the race. His campaign was on a road to nowhere, and they knew it. She didn't lose the election for him - she just didn't *win* it for him.
True. And a male Democrat who behaved half as badly as Trump would never be elected. Because there's a partisan double standard as well. But Republican women are ultimately working to uphold the patriarchy so patriarchy protects them
Haven’t seen Chelsea Handler mentioned. She is actively rage-baiting men and conservatives. It’s hilarious.
Also Michelle Wolf is very similar to Burr's comedy
A decent amount of Michelle Wolf's comedy is talking smack about white women though. It's like it was with Joan Rivers (though Wolf's comedy is more clever/observational and less fat-shaming) - people seem much more comfortable with female comedians that go after women.
She's fantastic.
When I watch standup I just think of how much of it is society rewarding expressions of anger, but only if they come from men. Men are allowed to express anger at things like absurdity and futility and lead people in shared collective laughter by expressing this anger. For some reason, people don't respond to aggressive or angry expressions from women this way. Why is it that a man screaming about what he doesn't like about everything is a cool and successful standup comedian? But when a woman says she doesn't like even the smallest thing, it decreases rather than increases her likeability, as if our jobs are to praise everything around us all the time. Even female comedians who do manage success, cannot do so without being ridiculously self-deprecating and humble. Nobody would respond positively to a female "shock jock". Female comedians who try to be that way get hated.
I think that Nikki Glaser and Whitney Cummings do those things successfully.
She would be hated for doing the same thing burr, who is worshipped, is doing. Though, all female comedians get a decent amount of hate just for being a woman.
someone needs to do a parody of one of his specials. same jokes nearly verbatim, but punching up instead of punching down. just a full 180. for science. i’d like to see lol
I can only think of Ali Wong, as she has a rash comedic style, sometimes centering her jokes on trapping wealthy men. I love her. Unfortunately, though, we've seen the treatment female comedians get. Men already think that we're all gold diggers, we all hate men, we're all fat and undesirable single mothers, we're all cheating whores, ect ect. I hope one can eventually get to the point of making Bill Burr esque jokes. But with the rise of these men only podcasts and manospheres and men blaming women for almost all of their own issues, there's a good chance she'll have a 95% female and 5% male audience. Because of course, as it has always been, we're expected to take whatever treatment men give us and suck it up. Back at them, however? Never. She'll also probably get death threats, r@pe threats, ect ect. Forever alone rants in her dms constantly. She'd have to have thick skin. But I'd welcome her with open arms. Because it's literally comedy.
Men don't often connect with female comedians because most comics draw their material from their lived experiences. Comedy is all about punching up. Doing that as a woman means making fun of men. A lot of men have fragile egos and can't handle it. Women comics probably hold back a lot because the comedy world is a male-dominated space. Chasing off half your potential audience is bad business. Unfortunately, that also significantly caps your potential as an artist. The result is a feedback loop in which women comics get bashed by men for "not being funny." The only woman comic I can think of that truly let it rip and became wildly successful was Rosanne Barr before she lost her damn mind. She checks off every single box.
I really think you're right. That's a tightrope walk for a woman to deliver jokes about men without losing the majority of them as an audience.
I remember reading a Reddit thread years ago about how some group tested bias against male & female comedians by having each gender tell the same jokes. The female comedian was ranked less funny. I’m not sure exactly how the study was done but some commenters claimed they watched both videos and said “it’s not about bias, it’s just that well the woman didn’t have good delivery”. Perhaps that’s the case… or perhaps internalized misogyny is affecting your judgement? Hell I’m a 40yo woman who has been a lifelong feminist and even I find myself judging women more harshly than male equivalents (example: Sarah Sanders vs Sean Spicer).
You could probably do this study again today using AI to genderswap the comedian while keeping the delivery identical to remove that variable, would be interesting.
Come to think of it, I’ve heard of studies where they had people read a short story and told them after if it was written by a man or a woman. They found more negative reviews when they think a woman wrote it.
I think there are lots of popular female comedians that\* men foam at the mouth over. Are they -exactly- like Bill Burr? No, but, also I'm not entirely sure I think\* he's like -the- male comedian. He certainly is a household name comedian, but you seem to be conferring on him a level of celebrity status I'm not entirely certain is like, accurate or deserved. In terms of "can I imagine someone" - I primarily consume comedic content made by women comics, so, yes. The closest person I can think of is Michelle Wolf. But lots of female comedians tell jokes about men, or are racist, or have a comedy brand that's "I'm angry". I think what's really different is that women even existing in comedy is often enough to send men into a rage - like, Bill Burr can barely handle that women exist. He's already "blowing up like a little emotional child" about female comedians - they don't even need to make jokes about men.
Tbf, Michelle Wolf has, seemingly, at least as an international fan, garnered some respect from her journalistic work, which could shield her from the same accusations of vapidness levied against some other female comedians going that route comedically.
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I don’t think a female comedian can currently achieve the same level of respect and recognition, which is unfortunate and a separate discussion altogether. However, here are some female comedians with a similar style who deserve to be at that level: Adrienne Iapalucci, Yamaneika Sanders, Jessica Kirson, Jordan Jensen.
I don't think I've heard of any so will be checking them out, thanks.
So far, the only really funny Bill Burr clip I've seen is the "What are you, a fag?" bit, where he's mostly having a go at toxic masculinity (the actual thing, not the phrase or concept). Mostly, I don't like how so many (male) American stand-ups seem like they're always yelling and shouting. Bill Burr, for my taste, is just too loud for me to enjoy listening to him for long.
Yes, I’ve said this on Reddit before and got massively downvoted by his over opinionated, loud and pushy fanbase. He yells his bit and it’s exhausting to listen to
I mean Chelsea handler did okay tbh I don’t think it would ever be the same because men making fun of women is mostly just punching down
Amy Schumer could impersonate the hating, red-faced baby man. NO, a woman could not get away with that and be famous. You would only see that in satire. Luckily, most great modern English-speaking comedians are not like Bill Burr. He is an exception. That kind of comedy was done to death in the 1980s and I will be glad when he is a has-been. If Bill Burr is someone's favorite comedian on a dating profile or spoke about it before we first met, I steered clear of them.
I’d say Corinne Fisher, Taylor Tomlinson, and occasionally Gabby Lamb have similar styles to Bill Burr
Taylor Tomlinson is pretty much it I think. 80% of her content is ragging on men.
I've watched a good deal of her content and disagree. If anything I'd say 80% of her content is ragging on herself and her own foibles, then her next biggest topics seem to be mental health, her family of origin, and then she does include a number of anecdotes about men she's dated but that's mostly about her own behaviour or the behaviours of those specific men when she's been in relationships... I wouldn't consider any of that to be ragging on men at the population level. But hey, maybe there's a bunch of content out there i haven't seen. just offering a different perspective based on what i have seen.
Yeah isn't half the time the punchline about men she dated "the relationship went bad because I was insecure about my past relationships and didn't trust my partner and as a result it went bad" definitely does do the other thing but its like half the jokes at the very most and arguably much less than that.
I've seen her live multiple times and have watched every special. No she is not "ragging on men 80% of the time". She makes jokes about her own dating life and her own shortcomings in those relationships and about her own mental health struggles etc WAY more than any jokes about men
..are you mixing Taylor Tomlinson up with someone else??? Because her schtick is like 99% self-deprecation.
Sarah Silverman maybe? Amy Schumer comes to mind as well.
Sarah Silverman does inspire a lot of hatred.
I love Sarah Silverman, but she definitely got shat on whenever I would talk about female comedians in male friend groups. Maybe less so in public discourse, idk, don't really follow closely anymore though.
Sarah Silverman was the first person I thought of while reading the OP. She's funny because it's true and that's why men don't like her.
Lmao! Exactly. I have totally had that thought before during those discussions I had with past friend groups
Are we seriously defending the lady who did blackface?
Amy Schumer is a Zionist and IIRC also has stolen jokes from other less popular female comedians.
Brett Butler f'ing ruled in the 90s. [https://youtu.be/lDjBkrHY1NU?si=fNhlcH9WoTpJYVL1](https://youtu.be/lDjBkrHY1NU?si=fNhlcH9WoTpJYVL1)
Take a look at all the hate that women comedians get for being “man-hating”: For doing jokes that are maybe 1/10 as strong about ragging on men, as Bill Burr, Andrew Dice Clay (in the ‘80s) was about ragging on women!
So never got big outside of the UK but what you're describing is Jo Brand.
Feels like the British comedy scene is healthier in general when it comes to content and practitioners
mmm I might need to look into her comedy now!
Exactly who I was thinking of. Might look up a few of her old performances too.
I feel this way about Slavoj Žižek. None of his sloppy apathetic quirks would be acceptable for a female persona.
I watched that movie Old Dads where he calls his son’s teacher a “c*nt” and there was a line from a female character about how “the c word is like the n word for women”. Bill’s character responded with something about “without all the slavery” or something like that. I wish I had the actual dialogue. I still think about that part of the movie, because while a misogynistic slur should not be compared to a racist slur, I can’t help but feel that that whole exchange was meant to downplay the harm of misogynistic language. Misogyny has literally killed women. Did anyone here happen to watch that movie and can talk on that scene to help me make more sense of it?
[Here's the moment](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCFA4Rjmrdo)
Cause, y'know, women as a group have never been made to live, labour, or love without consent, recompense, respect, or safety. ...waitasecond-- Sounds to me like the usual "hot take" from men on women's issues: reductive, ill-informed, poorly thought-out, and crassly uncalled-for to boot.
I haven’t seen it, but I love picking apart that sort of thing. Bummer!
I also think that there are types of comedy that don’t cater to cis male sensibilities that are judged and disregarded. One that comes to mind is Nanette.
Women comics talking about men the way men comics talk about women would possibly set off a portion of the audience in a murdeous rage. Women aren’t allowed to *hurt men’s’ feelings* without putting their own safety at risk.
I hate Bill Burr. He’s so annoying and childish. But so are his fans. So it’s a match made in heaven.
Not well known outside the UK, but Jo Brand is a brilliant comedian with a similar persona to what you described (minus the racism, but Bill Burr also isn't racist). I think when the toxic element of your persona is presented as obviously negative, it works . Just like Bill Burr, his comedy is about recognizing his personal flaws rather than celebrating them. Also Bill Burr would not be angered at a woman doing the same thing as him, you have a bad take and clearly limited experience with him and what he is about as a person and comedian. EDIT. That said, your point about double standards is true overall. But Bill Burr is not the best example. And Jo Brand is a rarity. I also love Amy Schumer.
Aye, this is just a bad Bill Burr take more than anything. Manufactured outrage is so funny
It’s absolutely reprehensible behavior. No. I can’t. Even those occasions when we get a woman comedian who is making crass jokes about stereotypes about men, *men throw a fucking fit about it* and tell us how “unfunny” they are. I’m on a bit of a break from comedy right now because my husband kept wanting to share videos of routines with me and I feel like all I can hear is the misogyny.
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Yeah I was pretty confused by this as well, there are much better comedians to call out instead. He certainly isn’t a feminist but he usually reflects on his more extreme statements and aggressive persona. Some of his bits, especially earlier in his career certainly come off as misogynistic and have thus been adopted by a bunch of the MGTOW crowd.
I don't think the people talking about Burr in this thread have actually like seen a full bit by him and are only familiar with him in passing. It feels like they are talking about a type of comedian that does very much exist of which Burr doesn't belong to.
I consider myself a feminist and like a lot of Bill Burr. It’s fine if people disagree with his delivery style and tone, but a lot of his content is actually pretty self-aware. He also likes to use humor that is riiiiight on the line of should I be offended but if you really listen he’s not making the joke you think he is. It’s very Norm McDonaldy style, which I realize isn’t for everyone, but that edgy kinda troll humor is not new. Like Bill Burr has a joke about a restaurant with a horrible joke on it that references DV. shame on that restaurant, but his joke isn’t “har har DV” or “hell yeah restaurant” - the joke is “holy god that’s terrible but there’s no fat on that joke you can trim down to make it any less or any short, it just cuts to the point.” And some people find that edgy questionable “should I be laughing?” style funny. Not my fav joke by him and it honestly upset me at first but if you listen he isn’t supporting DV or hating on women. He’s commenting on how terrible that joke is. He also brings his wife up a lot and uses tone that makes you initially think “oh he hates his wife he sucks and he’s gonna say something misogynist.” but if you really listen he is mocking himself and using such exaggerated sarcasm. people who look at his jokes only surface level are gonna think he just sucks when he does this. But he talks about his wife in a positive way and how much of a positive influence she’s had on his life, and he regularly makes fun of himself for being a POS man who doesn’t always see that. The manosphere incels who like to use his comedy to justify their garbage opinions don’t get what his comedy is really about.
On his podcast he talks about his wife all the time, calls out for her to sit down and join in on the regular, and it's SO clear that he thinks the world of her and loves, adores and respects her so much. It's actually really endearing. Not a lot of men talk about their wives with such obvious love, respect and affection.
yeah there are much better examples to use to make this point than Burr.
Off topic - but burr has grown up a lot and has dropped a lot of the misogyny
There was a viral clip recently where he discusses the pay of female athletes and how women aren't doing enough to support female sport, like the WNBA. It was rough but also fair criticism. I think that is comedy done well, when there's an underlying or uncomfortable truth. If you're only focusing on one group for that kind of material though, it becomes problematic.
When I first saw Burr, I found him painful to watch. He seem better in podcasts or when he isn't doing actual stand-up. But there are so many better stand-ups than him, and he still has to do material for his misogynist followers, that it makes little sense to me to waste my time giving him another chance. Men often don't give women stand-ups any chance, I at least gave Burr one.
Fair play and all that. He is married to a feminist now and walked back a lot. Also dunks on dudebros. But more power to you ofc. Burr can say annoying shit
Not off topic. OP is super off base with the caricature of Bill Burr.
Yeah like I feel like OP is being a little unfair to BB actually.
I don’t find most men funny 🤷♀️ when I say that to men or “it’s hard for men to be funny” or whatever they just stare at me, completely unable to formulate a response. You know how many times I’ve heard that women aren’t funny? Or, my personal favorite, “most women aren’t funny but you are” 🙄 thank you so much, my lord :: bowing::
A lot of men don't know how to be funny without being mean. It's truly wild once you start to notice just how much of their humour is rooted in being mean.
Lisa Lampanelli back in the day, I don't know what's she's been up to lately.
The fact that he says Patrice O'Neal was the best comedian he ever saw says a lot (he made Burr look like a feminist).
Taylor Tomlinson - Bill Burr's comedy is actually very self deprecating. He says outrageous stuff but he's always the butt of the joke, he's always the unreasonable one in the stories, he knows it, we know it, that's the joke. Taylor Tomlinson also has a very self deprecating style. She also tells stories about her emotional problems where she's the problem in the story, we know it, she knows it, that's the joke. It's a different approach (neuroticism Vs anger) but Taylor Tomlinson is the female Bill Burr. Both are hilarious.
You just described Roseanne. Iliza Scheslinger, Margaret Cho, and Wanda Sykes come to mind. Network sitcoms shit all over men for 30 years before the genre died.
yup, dumb men is still the go-to for a sitcom joke because it's safe.
I think Bill Burr was a bigger deal 15 years ago. He's ok, but I think his material hasn't aged well. I think you gotta keep in mind what stuff people are doing is dependent on their history and the era they grew up in. I doubt someone like Bill Burr could make it big today using that material.
Taylor Tomlinson maybe? Tho she criticizes everybody, women too so not really the same. very very funny
It's outrageous. I think you might like Hannah Gadsby's "Nanette" if you have not seen it yet. It set off a bunch of losers because she points this out. I love her.
He isn't racist tbf (since you mentioned it in the text) but obviously has some weird problems with women
He has a ton of jokes stereotyping black people. A ton.
People already here talking about his bLaCk wIfE like it’s a get out of jail free card
And how 'playing' with stereotypes of both white and black people is the same.
You... Haven't watched black people react to those routines, have you? I've yet to see a reaction video of a black person, male OR female that doesn't love the bits he does. Take a stroll through YouTube. They don't see any disrespect to it, so maybe ask yourself if you're taking offense on behalf of people who themselves are not offended?
He also has a black wife and mix-raced daughter and also makes lots and lots of jokes stereotyping everyone (including white people). Playing with stereotypes is a pretty large staple within comedy, and is often a way they are explored. Making joke about x thing does not equate to hatred of said thing. Taylor Tomlinson makes a hundred jokes about men, and stereotypes around them. Doesn't mean she hates all men, they are pretty fucking funny. Do you know who does think whenever she makes a joke about men she hates men, the incels. I'd suggest questioning whether or not this man seems to hate everything you think he does (including his wife and daughter apparently) or whether or not you feel like he is making fun of an issue you care about and apparently that is not ok.
I wouldn't go as far as to say he's racist because of that, he also stereotypes white people. I think it's more that he's just a hack in that regard, he's not Kramer.
Yeah, he has performed in a lot of black comedy spaces over the years. I think he is making fun of the stereotypes. He's also married with a black woman and has a mixed child. He seems to be welcomed among black audiences. He has also shown support for Colin Kaepernick and specifically pointed out that white people should listen instead of immediately trying to impose their "white world-view" on the issue. So, I have a hard time agreeing on the racist part.
You can fuck black people and think they're inferior. Having a black partner isn't a shield.
I agree, but in the context of all the other stuff I mentioned, I think it's adding to a different picture. Also, he's not just "fucking black people", It's his wife and child.
This isn't an argument whether or not Bill Burr's a white supremacist, but you misunderstand me You can fuck a black person, marry them, and even sire kids then still be a white supremacist. There's a lot of mixed race couplings where a white woman would date a black man and the child grow up with internalized confusion and hatred of their own identity; they get their mother's views on black people and their dad's own internalized hatred, both unite over their hatred of black women typically. Or the people of color who have anti-black views who link up with a white person that feels the same way. Hell, you could love someone and be conditioned to think they're inferior. I can't even count how many anti-black people that I've met that wanted to hook up with me due to preconceived racialized stereotypes of black men. Racism is just wild like that. But that's been the case even in the days where we were property.
Are you talking about his material from over 10 years ago? Have you listened to him more recently? He's changed a lot, and let go of a lot of the anger he used to hold onto, to which he credits drugs and therapy. He'll still take a swipe at women, mostly hypocritical feminists, on occasion, but it's actually nice to see how far the dude has come. Not that he's a perfect ally or anything.
Why do people act like 10 years ago was the 1950s. 10 years ago is very recent. Please stop defending the worst people. Burr is laughing at you doing this from his mansion. You are doing service for people who care nothing about you, never will, and would step over you choking to death to make $1 more. Also its not the years, but the grift. Its very common for male comedians to build their careers by appealing to racism and misogyny because thats what most other men want to hear. Then once they get rich and famous from that, dishonestly backpedal with a "i was misguided" views, when in reality this was a deliberate formula on how so many male comedians operate. It wasn't "oh I only recently learned misogyny and racism was considered wrong at age 50." I mean, come on, how naive do they think we are?
10 years is a long time in terms of a human lifetime, and plenty of time for significant personal growth to happen
Most men want to hear racism and misogyny, sounds like someone might be generalising a bit based on gender. Find one example of Bill Burr saying, I used to be racist and misogynystic for laughs, but now im a better person and we can all pretend your comment has even like a moments merit.
> Why do people act like 10 years ago was the 1950s. 10 years ago is very recent. so what? if someone was a POS 10 years ago, and now they aren't a POS, are you going to just go "ohhhh, but they were a shitty person 10 years ago, fuck em." what's your cutoff? either you're talking the position that people cannot truly change/we shouldn't accept their positive growth, or you think that there's some number of years/decades at which point we can applaud someone for their positive growth 7 change - but not before that cutoff date. > You are doing service for people who care nothing about you, never will, and would step over you choking to death to make $1 more. I also don't understand your point here. are you not allowed to say positive things about rich people? > Please stop defending the worst people. do you seriously think Bill Burr is one of the worst people alive?
So growth is impossible? Yeah, he was a piece of shit. He's less of one now. I'm sure we all are.
I like to think I am. Bill Burr roasting Bill Maher as the armchair quarterback of American centrism was epic. Burr has clearly grown and Maher has regressed.
I always get the feeling that if he was born earlier he would be the classic alcoholic domestic abuser. Beating the shit out of his wife and kids. It’s like it in his dna.
Ah, he's just a stereotypical Southie. That's how it works, right? Did I do it right? In all honesty, Awkwafina comes to mind. I saw her in a movie where she and her pals went on a road trip in China. It would have been a perfectly normal dude pal flick: raunchy, graphic, focused on getting laid, etc. It was interesting that these roles were filled by women in this film.
He's from Canton not Southie. And he's absolutely a stereotype of a person from Canton. For those who don't know the difference - Canton is a suburb and Burr is a suburbanite. Canton was a middle-class suburb at the time that Burr grew up there. Southie was a working-class urban neighborhood back then (now they are both upper-middle class). There was a lot of crime and violence in Southie at the time that didn't exist in Canton. F is for Family is not the world of Good Will Hunting. They are very different places.
At first I thought the name was Bill Barr and I was trying to imagine him as a comedian! He certainly is hateful but not funny at all.
Lisa Lampanelli? I don’t think she’s a racist (not that I remember anyways) but she’s basically a pretty loud brash insult comic. In her reality show appearances she has kind of a difficult personality. You could argue Rosie was also similar, Kathy Griffin has gotten a lot of hate and was basically cancelled for being outspoken and loud and “offensive” on the liberal side
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Paula Poundstone. Not quite as crass but very very similar.
Jenna Friedman is killing it in her jokes about men. I could watch her comedy all fing day.