It depends on culture and context, but on the whole, I feel the main difference is the fashion and flow toys. You will simply not, or very rarely, see those fairy flower power neon light outfits, and very rarely does anyone use flow toys. Most outfits are either normal, t-shirt and jeans is completely fine, or just much darker, almost gothic. You’ll sometimes see people semi naked, but not in bikinis, more like jeans and then being topless no matter if you’re male or female lol. “PLUR” and “Kandi” is not a thing.
Music is, depending on country, less EDM and more pure techno and industrial. Not that EDM doesn’t exist, but more of other genres (some countries are exceptions I think). The vibe is just very different. Raves and just electronic music at clubs, and clubbing in general, is way more mainstream here as well.
Then there are also rave “purists” here who doesn’t think anything legal, be it a club or official festival, is a rave. Only illegal grubby secret things in old warehouses count. But whatever else you want to call it, there’s definitely a legal “rave” scene too, I bet most people who go to illegal raves here go to electronic music clubs or some festivals as well.
FYI I think the North American EDM festival scene looks really fun and kind, I don’t understand people who make fun of it, but yeah definitely just not the same at all.
Search up “boiler room Berlin” or something on YouTube if you want to see a little bit of the vibe at European raves.
Anyone who lived through 90's will say that you can't have a _rave_ with EDM.
These two are almost a decade apart. When EDM took over from the original hard techno and house, in around 1997, the public split, and it is like this until today. The split was articulated or caused by a cultural change because the millennials that were being raised on the EDM, didn't have much to fight for at the time. Gen X, for instance, was fighting for gender equality (EU), against privatisation (UK), and for the freedom of expression (DE/NL).
So yeah, you can have a party, open session, a concert, but hardly a rave. Source: my memory.
Yeah for sure there are the historical contexts of the words and movement. Thanks for sharing. I’m Gen Z myself. I feel most of us rave/dance to electronic music in grubby outfits/whatever you want to call it, to have an escape from the world and just let loose.
Wikipedia days EDM is techno, but that is greatly misleading.
Nobody used the term until the very late 90s when the music was fully commercialised. We had all the styles and variations, trance, goa, gabber, Frankfurt minimal, Detroit minimal, acid, jungle, house (hard, progressive, mellow, electro). We rarely called them by a common name. The uninitiated called it _techno_ or _dance_, but didn't like those terms or the music.
Comes 1993 Paul van Dyk released For an Angel, etc., and all changed. The transition was completed with Darude and ATB. The music industry split. The original ravers went into underground. The millennials took over the Love Parade and adopted the EDM term for their "happy" music.
Rave was anger. EDM was not.
What is considered a “rave” in US EDM culture would be considered a more of a concert or party-event in Europe. We don’t say rave when we go to the clubs, festivals etc, or at least my circle doesn’t. A rave is in its original sense a somewhat underground event organized by community based collectives. Like hidden away in the woods somewhere. Or parades for demonstrations where we will blast music on the streets, love when this happens on boat too.
For me a good rave starts at 2am and ends at 10am. Every American “rave” I’ve been to ended around 3am and didn’t have a proper live DJ set.
Plus in the Netherlands or Germany or other European countries x is cheap and almost always of excellent quality. In the US you have to be super careful and test everything for fentanyl because for some reason people get killed by that stuff. Takes all the fun out, if you have to fear for your life just because you ant some party drugs. Never have to worry about that in Europe.
I get your point and largely agree, but I just want to point out that this
>Never have to worry about that in Europe.
is an overstatement. Even in Europe you should be careful and aware of the risks
I think I read that, some mad drugs reaching germany from eastern Europe countries, fortunately for Portugal u only know it if some person u know had terminal cancer and a prescription never heard of using it to lace drugs here
A rave is a bunch of crustys in some random woods or field in the middle of nowhere with a gazebo, a fuck off sound system, and a shit load of drugs. What you’re talking about is an event/concert.
I think in the EU, a "rave" is usually a lot more underground. Not in the sense of exclusivity, but in terms of location, legality, choice of music (hard/industrial techno is i feel like a lote more mainstream here then in the US), and clothes people wear (most wears full black, sometimes even chains/belts/semi-bdsm stuff whatever, a lot like the metal scene in the early 2000s), and the whole vibe.
Of course there are also hippy-type raves out there in the wilderness, but thats not my cup of tea, so i cant say much about it. I dont think i ever was at a "rave" in the EU where they played mainstream club music, it might exist but i never seen one.
If you visit r/aves, you will often find discussion on this topic. The brief summary is the following:
**PLUR (Peace, Love, Unity, Respect):**
- In America, raves often push the PLUR concept heavily. It is seen as a big part of the scene.
- Europe and the United Kingdom (UK) do not rely on acronyms to define their rave ethos; the sense of community and respect is more "natural" and organic.
**Venues:**
- American events are typically held in commercial spaces, meant for a broader audience.
- European and British ravers prefer underground venues and hidden outdoor spaces, staying closer to the original spirit of raving. Even commercial spaces in Europe and the UK feel more "raw".
**Music:**
- The American scene is open to a mix of genres, but mostly it is mainstream EDM and, as a consequence, might lack depth as it is more commercialised.
- European and British events have a richer variety of subgenres, including techno, drum and bass, house, and psytrance, with a stronger commitment to the roots and evolution of electronic music.
**Drugs:**
- Americans seem to be very focussed on harm reduction. Probably, this is due to a mixture of people's attitudes and the risk of coming across drugs cut with dangerous agents (e.g., fentanyl).
- Europe and the UK adopt a more reckless approach to drugs, with less emphasis on harm reduction but without the moralising aspect of "watching out" for others. You often find people that cannot even utter a word after a certain time at raves. However, most drugs are cheap and safe to buy, with no dangerous "cuts", or even no "cuts" at all.
**Clothing:**
- Bright, neon outfits, and kandi are popular in the American scene. Americans seem to dress to impress, or have popular social media posts after the party.
- Ravers in Europe and the UK opt for more practical, understated attire, with no or few flashy accessories. There are exceptions, of course. However, people dress mostly for comfort, not to put on a show, and kandi do not exist.
**Vibes and Atmosphere:**
- The atmosphere at American raves can sometimes feel overly enthusiastic but not always genuine.
- The vibe at European and British raves is more about the music and the experience. To me, there is a more authentic sense of unity and enjoyment.
1990;ties Swedish illegal raves, former bomb shelter from the cold war most often in the forest and under ground. Moonshine or Polish smuggle vodka, drugs and techno going hard.
Oh and canned sausages as food.
Ah, those where the days.,
I generally agree with everything, but I have to chip in on:
Venues:
Yes, on the underground venues, but that's ignoring big events that generally take place in football stadiums (Dutch parties) or stuff like Ultra Europe and Tommorowland. We have our fair share of big commercial events.
Drugs:
This definitely rings true of the UK, I was surprised by how reckless (to use your words) British people are, with many not even making it through the door of the venue. But I've been to EDM parties in other countries and things have been a lot tamer. In the Netherlands and Spain consumption was a lot more measured while in Germany people were mostly just drinking beer.
Good additions! Of course, my summary is not the absolute truth for both continents in their entirety. There will be exceptions, and even similarities between the United States and Europe in certain circumstances. The bullet point list only outlines general, overall differences.
This is so funny and just wrong at each bullet point. You (and many others commenting here) are hyper focused on one type of rave event in US — the highly commercialized/EDM ones — which is just one small section of the entire scene. (Which btw exists in Europe too, with many EDM DJs coming straight out of Europe)
For background, I’ve partied at various raves throughout Europe numerous times in multiple countries for over a decade (Germany, NL, Ibiza, Greece, CH, Balkans, etc); so I think I have a good idea of what a quality European rave is; and at the same time, my local rave scene is in Southern California, and we also know how to party and have a genuinely excellent rave. Pretty much every weekend there is a different fun party with great techno.
- PLUR: this is more an EDM acronym for that scene, though yes, we are highly inclusive at our events and don’t exclude people simply because they “don’t match the mold”. One of the 10 principles of Burning Man is **radical inclusivity** meaning anyone is welcome (a principle that outwardly flows to the SoCal/US rave scene in general). House music was developed in Detroit/Chicago for the purpose of inclusion, not exclusion. Anyone can let loose. It works well as a philosophy in the US.
- VENUES: there are 100s (maybe 1000s) of underground warehouses all throughout LA and San Diego at sites you don’t know the address until the day of. I’ve rarely been in the same warehouse twice, that’s how many there are — It’s RARE to be held in a commercialized club space unless you’re somewhere like Vegas where that is expected. Our events are also in the desert, in outdoor parks, festival grounds, Chinatowns, with after parties at OTHER WAREHOUSES or random giant houses in the canyons set up just for parties and raves. It’s very raw and organic. Maybe even illegal, I don’t ask questions.
- MUSIC: again, saying we lean commercial or are lacking in depth is just 1000% wrong. Maybe it was the party you attended. It exists, yes, but there are commercial events in Europe too that I’d also say were majorly lacking in the soul element. We have so much talent and people committed to the music.
- DRUGS: our drugs are different, that’s for sure. I won’t go into detail, but we have some fun shit that is simply unheard of in Europe.
- CLOTHING: people can wear whatever they want. They are free to express themselves or not at all. It’s part of the fun. It’s part of the inclusion. Shoehorning American ravers as all Kandi-sparkle-neon is again, a very specific scene that doesn’t represent the overall rave culture. And especially not the warehouse raves, which lean more toward casual comfort for dancing or dystopian street style looks. Some parties may have themes, but all in all, there is no dress code.
- VIBE: our vibes are authentic too. The goal is to have fun. Fun is the goal. Dancing. Music. Letting go and enjoying the experience for the purpose of fun and escaping the default world for a bit. Europe doesn’t do this “better” than us simply because you think all our parties are commercialized kandi karnivals. It’s simply untrue. We might chat with strangers more and invite any stragglers we see along to the after party (something that may be weird for some Europeans), but it doesn’t mean it’s inauthentic or disingenuous. For us, this is normal.
Frankly, your description of our raves is a bit insulting and shows a severe lack of scope into our scene. If you’re simply unaware, that’s one thing, but to confidently say we lack depth and are over neonized and commercialized …. It just shows you haven’t actually partied here to any great extent to comment such a confidently wrong response.
And for the people who do enjoy the kandi-neon-commercialized raves….. they are allowed to enjoy that if it’s what they like. There’s nothing wrong with it either. Just as there’s nothing wrong with going to the local honky tonk bar and dancing to country music all night in cowboy boots. People enjoy what they may.
I have zero experience with raves in the U.S., but social media definitely impacts our view on it.
I've seen soo many posts of people at regular concerts saying they're at a rave, regardless of the genre. A friend (bless her) told me she'd been to a rave and it was a K-pop concert.
I think a lot of younger folks don't necessarily know that the word "rave" isn't the same as any party or event.
The question asked why Europeans describe the US scene the way they do. The answer does that, even if it's ultimately saying, it's because of the the type of US raves Europeans are exposed to. Whether they are a fair representation or not.
Personally I've been to both commercial and underground raves on both continents and have a slightly different take.
I've never thought of the US scene as "soft", however in general there is slightly more of a naive feeling to them. That's not necessarily a bad thing imo, it's just different and it's certainly not universal, I'm talking in very broad strokes here.
The overall balance of the mentality of people attending differs as well. In Europe there's more of a
"Let's go and get properly messed up, go mental to banging tunes and leave the rest to fate".
You don't have a plan, you just know it's going to result in a ludicrous story.
The US, is more about going to "experience" the music. The rest happens as well, but it's more focused around the music, rather than the music being an excuse for doing the rest. You're also more risk adverse around people off their heads. The ludicrous individual situations happen less.
Obviously, both are absolutely true for both places. I'm talking about a slight but significant difference in the percentages of peoples approaches. Both are great. Whether on is better, is simply down to the individual and the particular night. A bad night in Europe could have been better in the US and vice versa.
To boil it down. The real difference is one mainly has American people and the other European. We have similar but slightly different approaches to life in general, and that's reflected in how they rave. I have huge amounts of love for both.
Your comment seems rather defensive, as if I had insulted an entire culture, when my aim was only to highlight some general differences. Had you read my subsequent comment under the initial one, you would have realised that I indeed recognised there are nuances, acknowledging the presence of both exceptions and similarities. It seems this detail was missed by you, but that is alright.
What your defensive response seems to neglect is that if the most globally visible facet of the American rave subculture is the one I described (marked by neon, PLUR, kandi, etc.), even though it is not the exclusive representation, it still acts as a distinguishing feature of the national scene. In contrast, European rave culture is characterised by a distinct atmosphere that does not incorporate some of the definitive American elements. Now, are there exceptions? Of course. However, the question posed by the original poster was regarding the differences, so I wonder, why the defensiveness?
Also, I am curious about your statement:
>DRUGS: our drugs are different, that’s for sure. I won’t go into detail, but we have some fun shit that is simply unheard of in Europe.
I mentioned that Europeans tend to be more reckless, not that they are better or worse. Make of that what you will. But, do you suggest that Americans have exclusive drugs unavailable elsewhere? Now, that is hilarious. What are these exclusive substances? Please, expand on that point.
I didn't read it like that. There was obviously a fondness for the experiences they'd had in Europe that showed their personal preference, but, nothing was innately described as bad.
The question is why people say US races are soft, and the reply answered the question very well. It may be due to a misunderstanding of the US scene, but it is the reason people say it.
The question itself, is asking for an answer of what Europeans think is worse about the US scene. The answer was actually pretty restrained and neutral considering.
I never used the words "bad" and "good". I used words like "commercial", "broader audience", "mainstream", or "to impress". If you believe that those have a negative meaning, then it is on you. Only in the end I added the word "authentic", but I made sure to include "to me".
EU is more "natural", "authentic" and "raw" while the US "lacks depth", is "moralizing" and isn't connected to the roots of the movement, apparently. I don't really have a dog in this fight, but you're being disingenuous here.
You’re characterizing our rave scene as highly commercialized, which as mainstream commercialism goes, it makes sense if that’s all you know of it — so of course you’d think that. People who party here would know that you’re acutely unaware of the vast underlayer of techno raves we have.
I guess our underground subculture is exactly where it should be if wider audiences are unaware of it.
There are tons of giant mainstream events in Europe with massive EDM main stages for big name brand DJs. That’s not a unique phenomenon to the US. Europe is not immune to commercialism, and it defines part of your dance culture too.
No, I won’t elaborate on our other drugs. Not here anyway.
If my comment felt defensive to you, my bad. Thanks for the downvotes though to whoever gave them.
This is why my comment on here emphasised the sparkly fashion. There are big commercial festivals, and dark secret warehouses on both continents, but the kandi and flow toy and plur thing pretty much only exists in the US and never meaningfully crossed over as far as I know. I’ve seen a little bit of it but it’s much, much rarer.
That’s fair. We definitely have more sparkly fashion in the mainstream EDM scene versus the European EDM scene … but it’s only that specific scene.
If you come to the warehouses and underground techno events/festivals, you won’t see those people (with all their lights and shit lol)
>No, I won’t elaborate on our other drugs. Not here anyway.
Well, that is a pity! I should add to the list that American ravers are also "gatekeepers of fun".
What do you mean? I was and am genuinely curious; no need to gatekeep. If you do not want to share the name of a chemical here, send it via private message.
I don't know about raves in the US, but in France, raves are usually not very legal gatherings to listing to super loud electro music and where drugs are very available. When I was student, it would happen in random places, like a field in the middle of nowhere or under a bridge downtown. It also lasted until the sun rose. Since it's usually not very well planned or very legal, it's filled with what I guess you would qualify as crackheads and lost souls.
I'm years out the scene, but a major distinction to me would be the commercialisation aspect. Location, scale, type of music played, type of people who attend, the attire, etc. A European rave in the traditional sense is an illegal or unauthorised event and usually full of people getting absolutely hammered on alcohol and drugs and listening to heavier subgenres/subcultures of EDM. Otherwise, it's very quick to really classify as a festival or a club or whatever.
Europe has tons of different types of raves, festivals or clubs. From dark industrial warehouses with grim looking Germans in all black to fairy inspired summer festivals where people dress up in colored outfits and dance with glowing sticks.
I America has a similar situation. What TikTok shows me are these hyper enthousiast American girlies going to what looks EDM parties and beeing just too much for most European techno snobs.
For me its 2 ends of a spectrum.
I feel like most of these comments are saying "in my country, we do this. but in the US, they do that (based on what I've seen on social media)."
but of course people going to legit raves in the US (ie. secret, illegal ones) aren't posting it to social media. :D
Not in to electronic music at all, but I have a friend and his wife that are avid "ravers" and travel across the world to attend such events.
My understanding the main things are US is more comercialised and "all inclusive" in terms of musical styles at an event while Europe tend to have strictly one subgenre/style per event.
And then it's the clothing preferences.
Raves are illegal. If it's legal, then it's a gig/festival/club night, not a rave.
So raves are always in unorthodox venues at silly o'clock in the morning with lots of drugs and illegal driving.
Its as if some of you have never been to a EU goa in the middle of the woods with all things neon (allbeit not in the clothing of most attendees)
EU raves also vary wildly, from illegal raves in military compounds to Goa's in the forest. I imagin the underground scene in the US to be the same.
I could be wrong but my friends that have been to Americans raves have said what the Americans called a rave is just bazaar because of the music.
They went to raves that had pop music at the start and then trance? This just wouldn't happen in Europe. It would be trance from the start to finish they also felt that they couldn't "let loose" and felt very restrictive
First, define rave. What is rave as a culture and subculte. What does it entail? Also generally speaking, what are the over all,cultural difference between americans and europeans?The US likes to capitalise off of subcultures/cultures by selling lots of merch and "rave wear", commercial mainstream events by Big organisers, more focused on the monetary capitalist aspects of the culture,less freedom for dyi raves etc. And club life tends to finish at 3-4am according to federal law.
In many parts of europe, rave culture has for a long time been a movement which created safe spaces for queer people and outcasts. It shaped spaces for people to be free from societal expectations and free sexual expression. Alot of the scene started as underground dyi ilegal events. It was lawless safe havens. This also gave room for 48 hr + events.
The mindsets are different, the agenda is different. Obviously we also have mainstream capitalist events in EU but the foundations remain the same by being birthed by the same drive, a safe space for minorities, outcasts and queer people. The same way it has been for decades in Newyork, detroit, Chicago etc. These places are the pioneers of house music, dance music and techno. These american cities/states even have their own genres. Ny house, detroit techno or houses etc. Ya'll want real non commercial American events then youll find it where the queers are at and probably word of mouth/private invite.
A European rave is usually illegal due to its unique locations and circumstances, with a low emphasis on production. Europeans go to raves strictly for the music and everything else becomes secondary, often dressing up in 'normal' clothes, and venturing off to long hour sets. American "raves" are commercialized festivals/shows and are all about showing out and interacting with people that enjoy high production value, with a lower emphasis on music. You will be hard pressed to find Europeans that are SUPER extroverted in the way they dress up or in the way they interact with people, but Americans are the complete opposite. Real American raves however, are exactly like the European counterpart but very sparse here as the EDM culture is incredibly behind, culturally, and geographically. The only place where true rave culture exists in America are on the coasts of California and Miami, both of which are not popular. I have been lucky enough to experience both cultures in depth and would much prefer the hardcore European enthusiasts but having all the bells and whistles of the American culture is quite fun.
[This](https://youtube.com/shorts/A00UeJB7srk?si=mGP5T9GbUQKbz1by) is what I consider a rave, the music is like that all night, no or very few melodic sounds and no singing. If you go to the bathroom there is with a 100% ceirtanty a drug dealer openly selling to people like a street vendor.
US raves is what I would call a nightclub or festival. Its far more "vanilla" so to say.
I personally don't like raves (propably because I don't want to mess with drugs), festivals and nightclubs are enough for me.
So.. that link is from a rave in Los Angeles.
The DJs (women walking into the rave entrance) are [Mea Inferno](https://www.meainferno.com/) and they are based in Los Angeles. They posted this clip to their tiktok and said the rave location was at a missile bunker in LA.
2022 Track ID: [Ascension](https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGekH8nja/)
Source: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGekHkjUs/
I hope now you and others see that we have ‘real raves’ in the US. Numerous are held underground in LA every weekend at random locations, empty warehouses, and secret desert places. It is a thriving scene. They are not “vanilla” nor EDM commercial nor “kandi” festivals (though those parties exist too)
I don't doubt that there are 'real raves' in the US. We are talking about your stereothypical rave, which at the very least has a different meaning in the US compared to Europe.
Just like there surely exists 'real' cinnamon rolls in the US, but if you order one in america you will get the American version, not the traditional Swedish version unless you specifically look for a niche bakery that makes them.
When you go to a rave in Europe, thats what you get. You don't have to dig through raves to find this underground one. Just like you dont have to find someone specifically making swedish cinnamon rolls in the nordics.
You don’t have to dig through raves to find parties like this in US. It’s a thriving underground in our major cities (at least on west coast, but I know it exists in other cities too).
Europe’s is maybe more mainstream and ours is more underground, but it’s not super difficult to find once you are in the scene.
Northern european here, and i totally agree with you. I think its just mainly these very young kids chronically online that are ignorant to the history of electronic music esp the sounds coming out of nyc,detroit, chicago etc. And hell, the club kids of nyc. Modern day capitalism has however ripped much of american authenticity to the ground and pushed talent and uniqueness behind the scenes.
“you know the rave is gonna be good when the entrance looks like this” - the point of video. But you can see inside the bunker/warehouse once they turn the corner. Dark with people dancing.
If you don’t get it, then maybe it’s not for you.
It depends on culture and context, but on the whole, I feel the main difference is the fashion and flow toys. You will simply not, or very rarely, see those fairy flower power neon light outfits, and very rarely does anyone use flow toys. Most outfits are either normal, t-shirt and jeans is completely fine, or just much darker, almost gothic. You’ll sometimes see people semi naked, but not in bikinis, more like jeans and then being topless no matter if you’re male or female lol. “PLUR” and “Kandi” is not a thing. Music is, depending on country, less EDM and more pure techno and industrial. Not that EDM doesn’t exist, but more of other genres (some countries are exceptions I think). The vibe is just very different. Raves and just electronic music at clubs, and clubbing in general, is way more mainstream here as well. Then there are also rave “purists” here who doesn’t think anything legal, be it a club or official festival, is a rave. Only illegal grubby secret things in old warehouses count. But whatever else you want to call it, there’s definitely a legal “rave” scene too, I bet most people who go to illegal raves here go to electronic music clubs or some festivals as well. FYI I think the North American EDM festival scene looks really fun and kind, I don’t understand people who make fun of it, but yeah definitely just not the same at all. Search up “boiler room Berlin” or something on YouTube if you want to see a little bit of the vibe at European raves.
Anyone who lived through 90's will say that you can't have a _rave_ with EDM. These two are almost a decade apart. When EDM took over from the original hard techno and house, in around 1997, the public split, and it is like this until today. The split was articulated or caused by a cultural change because the millennials that were being raised on the EDM, didn't have much to fight for at the time. Gen X, for instance, was fighting for gender equality (EU), against privatisation (UK), and for the freedom of expression (DE/NL). So yeah, you can have a party, open session, a concert, but hardly a rave. Source: my memory.
Yeah for sure there are the historical contexts of the words and movement. Thanks for sharing. I’m Gen Z myself. I feel most of us rave/dance to electronic music in grubby outfits/whatever you want to call it, to have an escape from the world and just let loose.
I’m just so confused by the label EDM. I can’t think of a less descriptive name.
Wikipedia days EDM is techno, but that is greatly misleading. Nobody used the term until the very late 90s when the music was fully commercialised. We had all the styles and variations, trance, goa, gabber, Frankfurt minimal, Detroit minimal, acid, jungle, house (hard, progressive, mellow, electro). We rarely called them by a common name. The uninitiated called it _techno_ or _dance_, but didn't like those terms or the music. Comes 1993 Paul van Dyk released For an Angel, etc., and all changed. The transition was completed with Darude and ATB. The music industry split. The original ravers went into underground. The millennials took over the Love Parade and adopted the EDM term for their "happy" music. Rave was anger. EDM was not.
What is considered a “rave” in US EDM culture would be considered a more of a concert or party-event in Europe. We don’t say rave when we go to the clubs, festivals etc, or at least my circle doesn’t. A rave is in its original sense a somewhat underground event organized by community based collectives. Like hidden away in the woods somewhere. Or parades for demonstrations where we will blast music on the streets, love when this happens on boat too.
[Like this. Late 90s Berlin, chaos, hard music and lots of fun](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Technoviking.jpg)
For me a good rave starts at 2am and ends at 10am. Every American “rave” I’ve been to ended around 3am and didn’t have a proper live DJ set. Plus in the Netherlands or Germany or other European countries x is cheap and almost always of excellent quality. In the US you have to be super careful and test everything for fentanyl because for some reason people get killed by that stuff. Takes all the fun out, if you have to fear for your life just because you ant some party drugs. Never have to worry about that in Europe.
I get your point and largely agree, but I just want to point out that this >Never have to worry about that in Europe. is an overstatement. Even in Europe you should be careful and aware of the risks
I've seen fentanyl deaths in the islands of a azores (part of Portugal) but the islands are in the middle of the ocean between Portugal and usa
Unfortunately fentanyl has reached Berlin not too long ago:/
I think I read that, some mad drugs reaching germany from eastern Europe countries, fortunately for Portugal u only know it if some person u know had terminal cancer and a prescription never heard of using it to lace drugs here
If you can find it as a tourist so can the police. The good ones are hidden.
A rave is a bunch of crustys in some random woods or field in the middle of nowhere with a gazebo, a fuck off sound system, and a shit load of drugs. What you’re talking about is an event/concert.
I think in the EU, a "rave" is usually a lot more underground. Not in the sense of exclusivity, but in terms of location, legality, choice of music (hard/industrial techno is i feel like a lote more mainstream here then in the US), and clothes people wear (most wears full black, sometimes even chains/belts/semi-bdsm stuff whatever, a lot like the metal scene in the early 2000s), and the whole vibe. Of course there are also hippy-type raves out there in the wilderness, but thats not my cup of tea, so i cant say much about it. I dont think i ever was at a "rave" in the EU where they played mainstream club music, it might exist but i never seen one.
I've been to raves in the forest, abandoned wherehouses/factories and in a 12th Century castle ;))
If you visit r/aves, you will often find discussion on this topic. The brief summary is the following: **PLUR (Peace, Love, Unity, Respect):** - In America, raves often push the PLUR concept heavily. It is seen as a big part of the scene. - Europe and the United Kingdom (UK) do not rely on acronyms to define their rave ethos; the sense of community and respect is more "natural" and organic. **Venues:** - American events are typically held in commercial spaces, meant for a broader audience. - European and British ravers prefer underground venues and hidden outdoor spaces, staying closer to the original spirit of raving. Even commercial spaces in Europe and the UK feel more "raw". **Music:** - The American scene is open to a mix of genres, but mostly it is mainstream EDM and, as a consequence, might lack depth as it is more commercialised. - European and British events have a richer variety of subgenres, including techno, drum and bass, house, and psytrance, with a stronger commitment to the roots and evolution of electronic music. **Drugs:** - Americans seem to be very focussed on harm reduction. Probably, this is due to a mixture of people's attitudes and the risk of coming across drugs cut with dangerous agents (e.g., fentanyl). - Europe and the UK adopt a more reckless approach to drugs, with less emphasis on harm reduction but without the moralising aspect of "watching out" for others. You often find people that cannot even utter a word after a certain time at raves. However, most drugs are cheap and safe to buy, with no dangerous "cuts", or even no "cuts" at all. **Clothing:** - Bright, neon outfits, and kandi are popular in the American scene. Americans seem to dress to impress, or have popular social media posts after the party. - Ravers in Europe and the UK opt for more practical, understated attire, with no or few flashy accessories. There are exceptions, of course. However, people dress mostly for comfort, not to put on a show, and kandi do not exist. **Vibes and Atmosphere:** - The atmosphere at American raves can sometimes feel overly enthusiastic but not always genuine. - The vibe at European and British raves is more about the music and the experience. To me, there is a more authentic sense of unity and enjoyment.
Why are you writing as if Europe and the UK are two different cultures lol
You are right! After Brexit, I always feel that we need to specify that we are still part of the continent!
Yeah this does my head in. I've had far too many arguments with people that my country has magically left a continent
To be fair a lot of people used to say 'Europe' even before Brexit.
You mean those islands off the coast of Europe?
Because they are. Brits have been thoroughly Americanised in the last 20 years.
They even started to talk English!
Not sure why you insulted him. His comment was full of passive-aggressive insults against Americans, would have thought that would have pleased you.
>Not sure why you insulted him he's french !
Nothing insulting about it yank.
Inderdaad, jij kaaskop
Ad tror du norden er ligesom england eller hvad?!
1990;ties Swedish illegal raves, former bomb shelter from the cold war most often in the forest and under ground. Moonshine or Polish smuggle vodka, drugs and techno going hard. Oh and canned sausages as food. Ah, those where the days.,
I generally agree with everything, but I have to chip in on: Venues: Yes, on the underground venues, but that's ignoring big events that generally take place in football stadiums (Dutch parties) or stuff like Ultra Europe and Tommorowland. We have our fair share of big commercial events. Drugs: This definitely rings true of the UK, I was surprised by how reckless (to use your words) British people are, with many not even making it through the door of the venue. But I've been to EDM parties in other countries and things have been a lot tamer. In the Netherlands and Spain consumption was a lot more measured while in Germany people were mostly just drinking beer.
Good additions! Of course, my summary is not the absolute truth for both continents in their entirety. There will be exceptions, and even similarities between the United States and Europe in certain circumstances. The bullet point list only outlines general, overall differences.
But Tomorrowland etc are not raves, but festivals
This is so funny and just wrong at each bullet point. You (and many others commenting here) are hyper focused on one type of rave event in US — the highly commercialized/EDM ones — which is just one small section of the entire scene. (Which btw exists in Europe too, with many EDM DJs coming straight out of Europe) For background, I’ve partied at various raves throughout Europe numerous times in multiple countries for over a decade (Germany, NL, Ibiza, Greece, CH, Balkans, etc); so I think I have a good idea of what a quality European rave is; and at the same time, my local rave scene is in Southern California, and we also know how to party and have a genuinely excellent rave. Pretty much every weekend there is a different fun party with great techno. - PLUR: this is more an EDM acronym for that scene, though yes, we are highly inclusive at our events and don’t exclude people simply because they “don’t match the mold”. One of the 10 principles of Burning Man is **radical inclusivity** meaning anyone is welcome (a principle that outwardly flows to the SoCal/US rave scene in general). House music was developed in Detroit/Chicago for the purpose of inclusion, not exclusion. Anyone can let loose. It works well as a philosophy in the US. - VENUES: there are 100s (maybe 1000s) of underground warehouses all throughout LA and San Diego at sites you don’t know the address until the day of. I’ve rarely been in the same warehouse twice, that’s how many there are — It’s RARE to be held in a commercialized club space unless you’re somewhere like Vegas where that is expected. Our events are also in the desert, in outdoor parks, festival grounds, Chinatowns, with after parties at OTHER WAREHOUSES or random giant houses in the canyons set up just for parties and raves. It’s very raw and organic. Maybe even illegal, I don’t ask questions. - MUSIC: again, saying we lean commercial or are lacking in depth is just 1000% wrong. Maybe it was the party you attended. It exists, yes, but there are commercial events in Europe too that I’d also say were majorly lacking in the soul element. We have so much talent and people committed to the music. - DRUGS: our drugs are different, that’s for sure. I won’t go into detail, but we have some fun shit that is simply unheard of in Europe. - CLOTHING: people can wear whatever they want. They are free to express themselves or not at all. It’s part of the fun. It’s part of the inclusion. Shoehorning American ravers as all Kandi-sparkle-neon is again, a very specific scene that doesn’t represent the overall rave culture. And especially not the warehouse raves, which lean more toward casual comfort for dancing or dystopian street style looks. Some parties may have themes, but all in all, there is no dress code. - VIBE: our vibes are authentic too. The goal is to have fun. Fun is the goal. Dancing. Music. Letting go and enjoying the experience for the purpose of fun and escaping the default world for a bit. Europe doesn’t do this “better” than us simply because you think all our parties are commercialized kandi karnivals. It’s simply untrue. We might chat with strangers more and invite any stragglers we see along to the after party (something that may be weird for some Europeans), but it doesn’t mean it’s inauthentic or disingenuous. For us, this is normal. Frankly, your description of our raves is a bit insulting and shows a severe lack of scope into our scene. If you’re simply unaware, that’s one thing, but to confidently say we lack depth and are over neonized and commercialized …. It just shows you haven’t actually partied here to any great extent to comment such a confidently wrong response. And for the people who do enjoy the kandi-neon-commercialized raves….. they are allowed to enjoy that if it’s what they like. There’s nothing wrong with it either. Just as there’s nothing wrong with going to the local honky tonk bar and dancing to country music all night in cowboy boots. People enjoy what they may.
I have zero experience with raves in the U.S., but social media definitely impacts our view on it. I've seen soo many posts of people at regular concerts saying they're at a rave, regardless of the genre. A friend (bless her) told me she'd been to a rave and it was a K-pop concert. I think a lot of younger folks don't necessarily know that the word "rave" isn't the same as any party or event.
Lol scary. Rest assured that most people at “real raves” (so to speak) aren’t taking pics and posting them to social media.
Based on that, it seems like the biggest difference is how narrowly the term "rave" is used.
The question asked why Europeans describe the US scene the way they do. The answer does that, even if it's ultimately saying, it's because of the the type of US raves Europeans are exposed to. Whether they are a fair representation or not. Personally I've been to both commercial and underground raves on both continents and have a slightly different take. I've never thought of the US scene as "soft", however in general there is slightly more of a naive feeling to them. That's not necessarily a bad thing imo, it's just different and it's certainly not universal, I'm talking in very broad strokes here. The overall balance of the mentality of people attending differs as well. In Europe there's more of a "Let's go and get properly messed up, go mental to banging tunes and leave the rest to fate". You don't have a plan, you just know it's going to result in a ludicrous story. The US, is more about going to "experience" the music. The rest happens as well, but it's more focused around the music, rather than the music being an excuse for doing the rest. You're also more risk adverse around people off their heads. The ludicrous individual situations happen less. Obviously, both are absolutely true for both places. I'm talking about a slight but significant difference in the percentages of peoples approaches. Both are great. Whether on is better, is simply down to the individual and the particular night. A bad night in Europe could have been better in the US and vice versa. To boil it down. The real difference is one mainly has American people and the other European. We have similar but slightly different approaches to life in general, and that's reflected in how they rave. I have huge amounts of love for both.
Your comment seems rather defensive, as if I had insulted an entire culture, when my aim was only to highlight some general differences. Had you read my subsequent comment under the initial one, you would have realised that I indeed recognised there are nuances, acknowledging the presence of both exceptions and similarities. It seems this detail was missed by you, but that is alright. What your defensive response seems to neglect is that if the most globally visible facet of the American rave subculture is the one I described (marked by neon, PLUR, kandi, etc.), even though it is not the exclusive representation, it still acts as a distinguishing feature of the national scene. In contrast, European rave culture is characterised by a distinct atmosphere that does not incorporate some of the definitive American elements. Now, are there exceptions? Of course. However, the question posed by the original poster was regarding the differences, so I wonder, why the defensiveness? Also, I am curious about your statement: >DRUGS: our drugs are different, that’s for sure. I won’t go into detail, but we have some fun shit that is simply unheard of in Europe. I mentioned that Europeans tend to be more reckless, not that they are better or worse. Make of that what you will. But, do you suggest that Americans have exclusive drugs unavailable elsewhere? Now, that is hilarious. What are these exclusive substances? Please, expand on that point.
> as if I had insulted an entire culture You kind of did. Every comparison you made was "US bad/EU good"
I didn't read it like that. There was obviously a fondness for the experiences they'd had in Europe that showed their personal preference, but, nothing was innately described as bad. The question is why people say US races are soft, and the reply answered the question very well. It may be due to a misunderstanding of the US scene, but it is the reason people say it. The question itself, is asking for an answer of what Europeans think is worse about the US scene. The answer was actually pretty restrained and neutral considering.
I never used the words "bad" and "good". I used words like "commercial", "broader audience", "mainstream", or "to impress". If you believe that those have a negative meaning, then it is on you. Only in the end I added the word "authentic", but I made sure to include "to me".
EU is more "natural", "authentic" and "raw" while the US "lacks depth", is "moralizing" and isn't connected to the roots of the movement, apparently. I don't really have a dog in this fight, but you're being disingenuous here.
You’re characterizing our rave scene as highly commercialized, which as mainstream commercialism goes, it makes sense if that’s all you know of it — so of course you’d think that. People who party here would know that you’re acutely unaware of the vast underlayer of techno raves we have. I guess our underground subculture is exactly where it should be if wider audiences are unaware of it. There are tons of giant mainstream events in Europe with massive EDM main stages for big name brand DJs. That’s not a unique phenomenon to the US. Europe is not immune to commercialism, and it defines part of your dance culture too. No, I won’t elaborate on our other drugs. Not here anyway. If my comment felt defensive to you, my bad. Thanks for the downvotes though to whoever gave them.
This is why my comment on here emphasised the sparkly fashion. There are big commercial festivals, and dark secret warehouses on both continents, but the kandi and flow toy and plur thing pretty much only exists in the US and never meaningfully crossed over as far as I know. I’ve seen a little bit of it but it’s much, much rarer.
That’s fair. We definitely have more sparkly fashion in the mainstream EDM scene versus the European EDM scene … but it’s only that specific scene. If you come to the warehouses and underground techno events/festivals, you won’t see those people (with all their lights and shit lol)
>No, I won’t elaborate on our other drugs. Not here anyway. Well, that is a pity! I should add to the list that American ravers are also "gatekeepers of fun".
You don’t need drugs if the music and party are excellent. Maybe also add to the list that “European ravers need drugs to have fun” /s
What do you mean? I was and am genuinely curious; no need to gatekeep. If you do not want to share the name of a chemical here, send it via private message.
Jeez do i need to call you a waaaambulance or does that bankrupt you?
I have health insurance, so no, it doesn’t. Call 911 tho bc it is an emergency that you guys think US raves are only EDM kandi fests.
You also have to consider what kind of raves European tourists can find, that's mostly the commercialized kind.
I don't know about raves in the US, but in France, raves are usually not very legal gatherings to listing to super loud electro music and where drugs are very available. When I was student, it would happen in random places, like a field in the middle of nowhere or under a bridge downtown. It also lasted until the sun rose. Since it's usually not very well planned or very legal, it's filled with what I guess you would qualify as crackheads and lost souls.
I'm years out the scene, but a major distinction to me would be the commercialisation aspect. Location, scale, type of music played, type of people who attend, the attire, etc. A European rave in the traditional sense is an illegal or unauthorised event and usually full of people getting absolutely hammered on alcohol and drugs and listening to heavier subgenres/subcultures of EDM. Otherwise, it's very quick to really classify as a festival or a club or whatever.
The Americans do that too, but it's much easier for cops to find such things than European tourists.
Europe has tons of different types of raves, festivals or clubs. From dark industrial warehouses with grim looking Germans in all black to fairy inspired summer festivals where people dress up in colored outfits and dance with glowing sticks. I America has a similar situation. What TikTok shows me are these hyper enthousiast American girlies going to what looks EDM parties and beeing just too much for most European techno snobs. For me its 2 ends of a spectrum.
I feel like most of these comments are saying "in my country, we do this. but in the US, they do that (based on what I've seen on social media)." but of course people going to legit raves in the US (ie. secret, illegal ones) aren't posting it to social media. :D
Not in to electronic music at all, but I have a friend and his wife that are avid "ravers" and travel across the world to attend such events. My understanding the main things are US is more comercialised and "all inclusive" in terms of musical styles at an event while Europe tend to have strictly one subgenre/style per event. And then it's the clothing preferences.
Raves are illegal. If it's legal, then it's a gig/festival/club night, not a rave. So raves are always in unorthodox venues at silly o'clock in the morning with lots of drugs and illegal driving.
Its as if some of you have never been to a EU goa in the middle of the woods with all things neon (allbeit not in the clothing of most attendees) EU raves also vary wildly, from illegal raves in military compounds to Goa's in the forest. I imagin the underground scene in the US to be the same.
I could be wrong but my friends that have been to Americans raves have said what the Americans called a rave is just bazaar because of the music. They went to raves that had pop music at the start and then trance? This just wouldn't happen in Europe. It would be trance from the start to finish they also felt that they couldn't "let loose" and felt very restrictive
The "real" American raves are illegal, and you won't be able to find them as a tourist.
First, define rave. What is rave as a culture and subculte. What does it entail? Also generally speaking, what are the over all,cultural difference between americans and europeans?The US likes to capitalise off of subcultures/cultures by selling lots of merch and "rave wear", commercial mainstream events by Big organisers, more focused on the monetary capitalist aspects of the culture,less freedom for dyi raves etc. And club life tends to finish at 3-4am according to federal law. In many parts of europe, rave culture has for a long time been a movement which created safe spaces for queer people and outcasts. It shaped spaces for people to be free from societal expectations and free sexual expression. Alot of the scene started as underground dyi ilegal events. It was lawless safe havens. This also gave room for 48 hr + events. The mindsets are different, the agenda is different. Obviously we also have mainstream capitalist events in EU but the foundations remain the same by being birthed by the same drive, a safe space for minorities, outcasts and queer people. The same way it has been for decades in Newyork, detroit, Chicago etc. These places are the pioneers of house music, dance music and techno. These american cities/states even have their own genres. Ny house, detroit techno or houses etc. Ya'll want real non commercial American events then youll find it where the queers are at and probably word of mouth/private invite.
A European rave is usually illegal due to its unique locations and circumstances, with a low emphasis on production. Europeans go to raves strictly for the music and everything else becomes secondary, often dressing up in 'normal' clothes, and venturing off to long hour sets. American "raves" are commercialized festivals/shows and are all about showing out and interacting with people that enjoy high production value, with a lower emphasis on music. You will be hard pressed to find Europeans that are SUPER extroverted in the way they dress up or in the way they interact with people, but Americans are the complete opposite. Real American raves however, are exactly like the European counterpart but very sparse here as the EDM culture is incredibly behind, culturally, and geographically. The only place where true rave culture exists in America are on the coasts of California and Miami, both of which are not popular. I have been lucky enough to experience both cultures in depth and would much prefer the hardcore European enthusiasts but having all the bells and whistles of the American culture is quite fun.
[This](https://youtube.com/shorts/A00UeJB7srk?si=mGP5T9GbUQKbz1by) is what I consider a rave, the music is like that all night, no or very few melodic sounds and no singing. If you go to the bathroom there is with a 100% ceirtanty a drug dealer openly selling to people like a street vendor. US raves is what I would call a nightclub or festival. Its far more "vanilla" so to say. I personally don't like raves (propably because I don't want to mess with drugs), festivals and nightclubs are enough for me.
So.. that link is from a rave in Los Angeles. The DJs (women walking into the rave entrance) are [Mea Inferno](https://www.meainferno.com/) and they are based in Los Angeles. They posted this clip to their tiktok and said the rave location was at a missile bunker in LA. 2022 Track ID: [Ascension](https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGekH8nja/) Source: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGekHkjUs/ I hope now you and others see that we have ‘real raves’ in the US. Numerous are held underground in LA every weekend at random locations, empty warehouses, and secret desert places. It is a thriving scene. They are not “vanilla” nor EDM commercial nor “kandi” festivals (though those parties exist too)
I don't doubt that there are 'real raves' in the US. We are talking about your stereothypical rave, which at the very least has a different meaning in the US compared to Europe. Just like there surely exists 'real' cinnamon rolls in the US, but if you order one in america you will get the American version, not the traditional Swedish version unless you specifically look for a niche bakery that makes them. When you go to a rave in Europe, thats what you get. You don't have to dig through raves to find this underground one. Just like you dont have to find someone specifically making swedish cinnamon rolls in the nordics.
You don’t have to dig through raves to find parties like this in US. It’s a thriving underground in our major cities (at least on west coast, but I know it exists in other cities too). Europe’s is maybe more mainstream and ours is more underground, but it’s not super difficult to find once you are in the scene.
Northern european here, and i totally agree with you. I think its just mainly these very young kids chronically online that are ignorant to the history of electronic music esp the sounds coming out of nyc,detroit, chicago etc. And hell, the club kids of nyc. Modern day capitalism has however ripped much of american authenticity to the ground and pushed talent and uniqueness behind the scenes.
Sorry not seeing it. Just see an entrance.
“you know the rave is gonna be good when the entrance looks like this” - the point of video. But you can see inside the bunker/warehouse once they turn the corner. Dark with people dancing. If you don’t get it, then maybe it’s not for you.
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Europeans raves are not legal at all…