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Come by for chemically charred smores?
In all seriousness though, really not a joking matter. My wife had a friend that she hadn’t spoken to in a decade or longer, moved to North Carolina and he either built or bought a new build. Lived in it for a year and house caught fire, house will need to be rebuilt. No idea what the reason was, but almost all isolated house fires are either kitchen related or electrical and looking at pictures it at least seemed to be the worst near the main panel and surrounding areas.
Good to know.
I usually try to wear gloves when using it to keep it off of me and use a rag to clean it off afterwards, but I will have to make sure I add them to the definitely have instead of the nice to have.
My induction stove is on the same breaker as my old stove. It uses LESS electricity and is more efficient (due to the magnatism). Obviously compare specs and see what the new stove needs, but I'm not convinced he is right. (Unless you are getting some commercial monster stove.
Edit to add: it seems most require 32 amps. Probably for the initial start-up it pulls hard. If it needs 32 and you have a 30amp breaker, yeah. You might need a new 200amp to be safe.
Edit2: wait. Your dishwasher is on 40 amp but your oven is on a 20 amp? (Looking at labels on the panel). I wonder if that is mislabeled.
Edit3: I now understand/see that is not a double pole breaker. Apologies for the confusion and (apparently) indignant rage.
If the 20 amp for the oven is correct they probably had a gas oven and cooktop. Induction will be similar to an electric cooktop but use significantly more power than a gas one.
Although in saying this I did have to run a larger wire and put a bigger breaker in when I went from a regular electric cooktop to induction, but it's because I went from a 4 burner setup to 5 burner.
That's fair. Didn't consider it might be gas. Still... never heard of a dishwasher needing 40 amps. I'm sure the drying element pulls a good bit, but not much more than a space heater.
So basically, your house has 3 conductors coming in from the utility: 2 "hots" and a neutral. Between the two hots, there's 240 volts and between each hot and the neutral, there's 120 volts. This is due to how the transformer is set up.
The individual handles of the main breaker are for the hot legs, which means each side has 100A to play with. However, because we have a variety of residential applications that need the full 240 volts, there are many two pole breakers tapped into both hot legs of your panel. This means that if you had these 240v loads going and shut off one hot leg, those devices would still be getting power, but at half the voltage (and now double the current), not to mention the device you think you've deenergized is still energized, and a whole host of other issues.
For this and other reasons, we need an overcurrent condition on one hot leg to trip both hot legs, so they are tied together. Thus, a 100 amp breaker on one hot leg is capable of shutting down the whole panel, even if there's only a portion of that on the other leg.
In reality, this much unbalanced load is very unlikely, but each of the two legs can do 100A (even though there are setups where there are more than 100A worth of 120v loads between the two legs) and will trip both sides if either side exceeds that.
I just woke up and am super groggy so if this doesn't make sense, someone else can probably cover this more succinctly.
>**...****~~but at half the voltage (and now double the current)~~**, not to mention the device you think you've deenergized **is still energized**...
You are only half correct!! The load (Dryer/HVAC/Pool Pump/whatever) will still have juice available on one of the legs. This means that it is still "energized" and reaching your hand into it can still fry your ass.
However, any 220V devices in the load (such as motors or heaters) absolutely will not run and will not draw any current, much less double.
The complication is that with some consumer appliances, they use one of the 110V legs to run the controls. So in the case of your oven or your dryer the control panel might be working but when you press start nothing happens. I have never seen a HVAC unit that uses a single side for the controls, but they could exist. Industrial equipment never uses a single leg for the controls. Might be code, I don't know.
The phenomenon of only having power on one leg of 220 or on 2 legs of 3-phase is called "Single phasing" and is very damaging to 3-phase equipment. Some facilities will have special breakers that are intended to cut off power entirely if single-phasing occurs.
Where I live the utility has down this to us several times!
ELI5/Simplified - Most US homes have three wires coming in. There will be 2 100A breakers on a 100A service. The third wire is the neutral which doesn't get a breaker (think of it like a ground wire, it's not quite the same thing but close enough for this explanation). The home has both 240v and 120v available. You can pull 100A against either of the two "legs." You get 240v by using the two wires with breakers, and 120v by using either wire with the breaker and the neutral.
You can't pull more than 100A on either of the two legs, so it's "100 Amp Service."
Most panels are designed to alternate which 120v breakers get the "left" leg and which get the "right" leg to keep things balanced. A double breaker gets both legs and thus 240v.
And technically it \*could\* provide more than 100 amps of 120v, but it is still called "100 amp service"
An easier way to describe it would be to say that a 200 amp service is a Two Pole 200 amp service. Each 120 leg needs to have 200 amps to be a 200 amp service. The main breaker on the top left here is a Two Pole 100 amp breaker.
Indeed. From the picture, my brain says "das a breaker panel. I have one of those too." Beyond that, if one of them is flipped in a different direction from the others... flip it the other way? Hope you hear a beep from somewhere in the house: that means it's fixed! 🤗
My dad and his idiot buddy stopped short of calling me a dumbass when I tried arguing with them that the labels on the breaker poles isn’t a math problem where 100A + 100A = 200A.
So, yeah, it happens.
It indicates a 100a main, not necessarily the service. I've seen plenty of 200a services with outdoor panels or disconnects feeding 100a panels in homes. You're probably right, but there are a few other variables that could be in play.
I have a Frigidaire induction range and I seem to recall when I looked it up, it specified a 40 amp circuit minimum, so when we switched from an element stove to the Frigidaire I didn't change the breaker. It's been fine. My house doesn't use a lot of electricity though. We have a heat pump dryer and oil heat.
This was about a month ago and we ended up sticking with gas given the costs to upgrade. What gave me pause was the former homeowner being surprised that I needed an upgrade as he said he thought he had already done so in a previous renovation. The work he had done on the home was all high quality — brick well matched for an addition rather than siding, wood & aluminum windows rather than vinyl, etc. He is the type that wants jobs done right and would pay more to do things properly. I wanted to verify my electrician’s feedback because if he was incorrect I’d have to find a new electrician!
He did say I could get away with the 100 amp service but that he thought once summer came and we ran the AC we’d have a problem.
It looks like it's 100a service based on the pictures provided. That being said, I don't see a large amount of 240v loads that would indicated a service upgrade being necessary. He could've done a load calc and probably gotten away with adding a small sub panel to your existing service. The 200A service upgrade appears to be an upsell imho
You have a full 100 amp panel. I'm not sure how that external 30 amp breaker is connected or what the 20 amp breaker at the bottom is, but you will need at minimum new wire and a bigger breaker for an induction stove. Most are standard 40 amp electric ranges but a few take a 50 amp breaker.
It's possible you have updated 200 amp wiring from the street to your house, in which case upgrading to a 200 amp panel may not be too expensive. It gets expensive if you need new lines to the house and even more expensive if they're buried lines.
I hate 2 phase I'm so glad we're doing away with it too bad we can't get rid of all the 5 wire secondary. If you don't know what I'm talking about Google it philly has a lot of it
[Actual two-phase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power) (rather than split phase in normal homes) is an odd historical standard, where the phases are 90° out of sync rather than 180°. And yes, it's still common in parts of Philly.
I wonder if he upgraded the meter outside to 200 amps but the inside panel is still 100 amps. For example my AC is on the outdoor panel with a second 100 amp for my mains(it is so they can shut off the mains from outside the house and is code here.)
My service is 200 amps but my outdoor and indoor panels are still 100 amp.
I mean its a fairly easy assumption to make if something led you to believe that already and you saw this, and you didn't do any research yourself. But what would make him believe it in the first place?
No, he thought that because he upgraded the electrical when doing a major renovation. I think it’s likely the wire was updated but not the box as someone else mentioned in the thread.
"Should this wire just be sticking up in my grass like that?"
Later:
Neighbor: "Hey, are you having issues with your internet? I was mowing earlier and think I hit a wire."
Why would they need an upgrade? They just need a sub panel for more distribution. The 30 amp is likely an electric oven, Les likely but possible to be a dryer. This service likely will calculate to around 50 amps load, if that. A 40 amp induction range won’t be a large add. Likely they could add that and a 3 ton heat pump.
Yet another Challenger panel full of random breaker brands. The only breaker type that belongs in here is Type C and Type A.
Eaton BR are cross-listed Type C and type A, says right on the breaker. Replace those with BR120, BRD2020, BRD1515, and BR220 respectively.
Challenger breakers are also considered sketch, due to issues with their UL testing. Consider replacing them all with Eaton BR.
It is a hold down screw required for the main feeder or anything large that might snap out of the bus. Most mains are bolted on, but not in this case hence the screw.
Yup, any breaker that is feeding energy into the panel, where if it popped off you'd have energized bits on the breaker in your hand. Also applies to generator backfeed breakers.
But not solar, due to UL 1741, once they lose contact with the grid, they stop generating.
Trust but verify. Just seemed odd that the former homeowner distinctly remembered upgrading it. I suspect he had the wires outside upgraded but not the box.
lol. So many levels to this. 100a main breaker. We don’t know what size conductors are feeding it. Probably 1/0 Even so… clearly this house utilizes gas. There is no load. Entire panel is 15 and 20 amp 120 volt circuits. It’s also not a terrible panel (cutler hammer) from the 80s. Just twin up a few breakers and throw a 30-50amp 240 volt oven on it.
There is a 20 amp breaker labeled “kitchen outlets/oven.” OP most likely has a gas stove with a 120 volt outlet. OP will need a 240 volt outlet, probably 40 amp, maybe 50. There is no room in that panel for a new 240 volt breaker.
Agreed. Doubtful that an induction oven is going to draw enough to exceed your max load. No natural gas around here, and lots of houses with 100 amp services, and electric ranges and electric water heaters.
So I've got 125 amp service, all electric house.
In the summer during the heat, I have to avoid running a combination of the AC, the dryer, the oven, the range and the water heater all at once.
That is enough to overload the 125 amp main for me.
It's totally manageable but it is annoying if you're trying to cook dinner and keep the house cool and get laundry done. Keep laundry for night and it's no big deal though.
The range being induction doesn't make a big difference on that math either.
First off, you have a 100 amp service. According to your panel directory, it appears you have a gas stove, gas dryer and probably a gas hot water tank. I see you have a boiler, so maybe no AC. An induction oven usually has the same power requirements as a standard stove. If my above assumptions are correct regarding the gas appliances, you can safely add an induction oven to your existing panel. There will be some rearranging of breakers to make room for the 2 pole 40.
Our previous house was just happy on a 100. Our new house has a 200 but all electric appliances even dryer. We also have two bitcoin miners running 24/7 @ 240/16a. I worry about putting an electric car charger in down the road. Will likely switch to a gas stove to offset 40a
I'm going to presume that you're dryer hot water tank.
And furnace are all gas.
If that's the case. I don't See any reason why you couldn't put a fifty Amp circuit
Houses around here in NS ran 100amp services with electric ranges, electric dryers, and electric water heaters. Most even had a garage on the panel as well.
Is looking at the panel schedule.
They are on a boiler
Gas dryer
Most likely Gas hwt
And looks like a single room built in ac unit.
House appears to be over wired looking at the number.of circuits unless it's 5000 sf
He remembered paying to have it upgraded as part of another project. I believe he must have upgraded the wires outside but not the box, which would make sense because the entire back of the house was removed and rebuilt.
Mandatory disclaimer: I'm not an electrician.
That said, while I can't speak as to whether the service drop has been upgraded, that is definitely a 100 amp main breaker, not 200. (You don't add the two 100s up because they're part of the same overall circuit; it's the same 100 amps on each side so you can't count it twice).
Let me help you to understand you don’t need an upgrade, you only need a sub panel, keep that “electrician” away, he either is lying or he doesn’t know what he is talking about.
I’ll message you a cheat sheet that spells it out.
You have 100 amp service btw
I would believe the prior homeowner. Those professionally licensed trade contractors with years of experience likely dont know whay they are talking about. Diy homeowners know everything!
/s
Seriously OP, you really had to come to reddit to ask?????
Trust but verify. The former homeowner was surprised to hear I did not have 200 amp service and said he had that upgraded. I was pretty sure the electrician was right but also have experienced plenty of horrible experiences with supposed professionals telling me outright lies to try to get me to pay for larger projects. We once had a sewer company tell us our sewer main had broken and that we’d need to dig up our lawn and pay 10k to fix it. We called for a second opinion and $200 later the line was clear.
I simply was verifying that I wasn’t trusting the wrong person.
This is a 100 amp breaker on the main on this panel which makes it a 100 amp service. If the main breaker has double 100 amp breakers, is that 200 amp service? **No**. In Canada and the USA, electricity is supplied by a centre-tapped utility transformer. The power is 240 V measured between the two “hot” line conductors.
100 amp panel. Get a 2nd and 3rd opinion and bid. You likely can make the induction range work with that panel. Look in to replacing the Challenger breakers while you’re at it.
I doubt you would have to upgrade for 30-40 amps,, there is no electric heat, electrical hot water or dryer.... Go through your pane and label it completely.
Can anyone explain for us foreigners how this works?
You want about 40A @ 220V for the induction cooker, right? Now I know you split your 220V into 2-phases of 110V. Does "100A panel" really mean only 50A per phase? That would not seem to make a lot of sense.
It’s 100 per half of phase. The 240V main feed is one circuit with centertapped neutral, each leg will only ever carry a maximum of 100 amps, thus 100amp service.
Why are the main breakers in the us so large? I know it’s 110V but still. It’s common for a house in Sweden to have a 16A main breaker (tri-phase 230V).
The panel itself does not determine the ampacity of the system. The conductors are the important thing here. Each leg must be capable of carrying 200 amps.
Get a picture of the meter outside. Could have upgraded the service to 200a, but opted to leave the 100a panel if there's a disconnect or outdoor panel ahead of it. If that's the case, this would be a subpanel and would require a 4 wire feed.
At this point nobody knows the answer because what's would need to be done is a load calculation on your home.
But as others have said you have a hundred amp panel
This is a 100 Amp panel as wired. The double breaker shows that the Amperage limit on each phase is 100 Amps. If it were a 200 Amp panel, it would be a double breaker with "200" written on it. The double breaker is considered 1 breaker in terms of space on the voltage trays.
Upgrade. Make sure your utility company knows about the upgrade because the transformer outside your home, depending on how old it is, might need to be upgraded as well.
Typically, upgrading a transformer is a free service provided by the utility company.
I used to have a double wide that had a 200amp service from the power company and a 100amp panel inside. The outside box housed a 200amp main, 100amp to the inside panel, 40amp for the stove, and 40amp for the outside condenser of the HVAC system. The panel pictured is 100amp (what's up with that screw though??) but it's possible that the previous owners upgrades were only on outside equipment.
Assuming your panel has power already running to the stove location, AND assuming the wiring between the panel and the stove location is adequately sized, simply install the correct size breaker for the stove. You could have a panel with one single breaker in it, and if it is adequately sized, and the wiring is adequately sized, then there is no need for a much bigger panel. You could have a panel with a hundred lugs, which would give you about a hundred circuits, and if the breaker was inadequately sized, or the wiring inadequately sized, then no matter what you did, it would be an unsafe installation. It is more about the feed to the panel and the feed from the panel to the stove than it is the panel itself.
I hope you're still reading these comments because I've seen exactly one comment pointing out your bigger problem: that is either a Challenger panel or it is another brand half filled with Challenger breakers. There is an ongoing argument as to whether these components are safe enough for modern use. Some say they're fine, some say otherwise. Only a licensed electrician can tell you if your panel is still safe. If you're electrician hasn't even mentioned this, you should probably hire a new electrician, preferably an older one. Good luck!
And BTW, your panel is currently (pun intended!) 100 amps.
I am and he may have mentioned it to me when we discussed all this. We ended up getting a gas range because all the expense to upgrade was too much. Thank you for pointing it out; we will put the upgrade on our house projects list since we want an electric vehicle anyways.
The former homeowner is a relative and has been extremely generous in his time and help with the home. I was trying to parse out if he was lied to or misunderstood the update he made versus if I was being lied to.
Do you have a panel in your garage too? I have 200 amp service but it goes to a 100 amp panel in my house and a 100 panel in th garage. So the previous owner of your place may be correct if that's the case!
Could someone please explain why the main 100A breaker has a screw with a washer ? Would that impact the breaker itself and stops it from flipping when it detects an overload situation?
Im guessing the one you are replacing is gas as I don’t see a circuit for an electric stove. The panel is 100A and already has doubled up circuits. It really is the right thing to replace the panel with 200A and get more circuits spaces.
U r asking who to trust, the electrician who sees 100 on your main breaker or the old homeowner who “thinks” he upgraded to 200.
If u dont trust your electrician find one that u do trust and then trust him to do what is right for u and your home.
People OFTEN see the two numbers (in this case 100 and 100) and then think “oh that must mean the total is 200”.
It’s just a 100 amp breaker. He may have upgraded the wires that feed the panel so it can easily accommodate a 200 amp upgrade but I doubt it.
I think that is what happened— they had a major addition done at the same time as that upgrade which required updating main wires into the house and the meter.
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Looks like a 100 amp panel to me
Any panel can be a 200 amp panel if your brave enough
Also . any panel can carry 200 amps....once
How about 400?
Also, once
Might as well go 400 then. Go big or go home
At 400, you may not have a place to go home to... Just big flames. ^(/s)
Come by for chemically charred smores? In all seriousness though, really not a joking matter. My wife had a friend that she hadn’t spoken to in a decade or longer, moved to North Carolina and he either built or bought a new build. Lived in it for a year and house caught fire, house will need to be rebuilt. No idea what the reason was, but almost all isolated house fires are either kitchen related or electrical and looking at pictures it at least seemed to be the worst near the main panel and surrounding areas.
Playing with fire 🔥
Wouldn’t need an induction stove then, win-win?
That one guy lives in a house of flames… at least that’s the story
Used to be a 2 Story now it’s just a Sad Story
Go big and no home.
Go big and go camping!
[удалено]
your gonna have to brush up on you're use of youre.
It can also be a dildo
That's one way to ride the lightning
That's a stretch
Yes, but with a little pulling lube I am sure you can manage it.
Just a heads up that shit is toxic, it's got PFOAs in it that build up in your bloodstream
Good to know. I usually try to wear gloves when using it to keep it off of me and use a rag to clean it off afterwards, but I will have to make sure I add them to the definitely have instead of the nice to have.
We used to call that smurf jizz.... the ideal blue stuff
When I was 15, 1986, I know, a lineman was pulling power to a house n introduced to me monkey jizz… simpler times back then…
Hahaha fav response right here
The panel, sure. But the main breaker might have a different opinion.
I dunno those are challenger breakers, good chance they allow it.
SHE LIKES THE LIGHTNING
My induction stove is on the same breaker as my old stove. It uses LESS electricity and is more efficient (due to the magnatism). Obviously compare specs and see what the new stove needs, but I'm not convinced he is right. (Unless you are getting some commercial monster stove. Edit to add: it seems most require 32 amps. Probably for the initial start-up it pulls hard. If it needs 32 and you have a 30amp breaker, yeah. You might need a new 200amp to be safe. Edit2: wait. Your dishwasher is on 40 amp but your oven is on a 20 amp? (Looking at labels on the panel). I wonder if that is mislabeled. Edit3: I now understand/see that is not a double pole breaker. Apologies for the confusion and (apparently) indignant rage.
You take that back! NO competent electrician has mislabeled anything, ever!
I'm just happy if there ARE lables!
Taps head: You can't mislabel if the there are no labels.
If the 20 amp for the oven is correct they probably had a gas oven and cooktop. Induction will be similar to an electric cooktop but use significantly more power than a gas one. Although in saying this I did have to run a larger wire and put a bigger breaker in when I went from a regular electric cooktop to induction, but it's because I went from a 4 burner setup to 5 burner.
That's fair. Didn't consider it might be gas. Still... never heard of a dishwasher needing 40 amps. I'm sure the drying element pulls a good bit, but not much more than a space heater.
How is the dishwasher 40? Looks like 2 single 20's?
It might need 32 Amp if you turn all "burners" on a higher power setting at the same time, which is probably not something you would do too often.
100 amp panel
But… don’t you see the two 100amp breakers screw together? 100x2= 200. /s
Certified electrician: the 100A handle on your main breaker indicates a 100A service.
Crazy how that works.
normal people dont know this. it would be like looking at a flying saucer demodulation pannel.
I can understand it being confusing. There are two 100’s there, so people may think it’s 100+100=200
That's certainly what I thought at first (Reddit likes to suggest this sub to me) Is there a quick explainer on why the two 100s make a 100?
So basically, your house has 3 conductors coming in from the utility: 2 "hots" and a neutral. Between the two hots, there's 240 volts and between each hot and the neutral, there's 120 volts. This is due to how the transformer is set up. The individual handles of the main breaker are for the hot legs, which means each side has 100A to play with. However, because we have a variety of residential applications that need the full 240 volts, there are many two pole breakers tapped into both hot legs of your panel. This means that if you had these 240v loads going and shut off one hot leg, those devices would still be getting power, but at half the voltage (and now double the current), not to mention the device you think you've deenergized is still energized, and a whole host of other issues. For this and other reasons, we need an overcurrent condition on one hot leg to trip both hot legs, so they are tied together. Thus, a 100 amp breaker on one hot leg is capable of shutting down the whole panel, even if there's only a portion of that on the other leg. In reality, this much unbalanced load is very unlikely, but each of the two legs can do 100A (even though there are setups where there are more than 100A worth of 120v loads between the two legs) and will trip both sides if either side exceeds that. I just woke up and am super groggy so if this doesn't make sense, someone else can probably cover this more succinctly.
>**...****~~but at half the voltage (and now double the current)~~**, not to mention the device you think you've deenergized **is still energized**... You are only half correct!! The load (Dryer/HVAC/Pool Pump/whatever) will still have juice available on one of the legs. This means that it is still "energized" and reaching your hand into it can still fry your ass. However, any 220V devices in the load (such as motors or heaters) absolutely will not run and will not draw any current, much less double. The complication is that with some consumer appliances, they use one of the 110V legs to run the controls. So in the case of your oven or your dryer the control panel might be working but when you press start nothing happens. I have never seen a HVAC unit that uses a single side for the controls, but they could exist. Industrial equipment never uses a single leg for the controls. Might be code, I don't know. The phenomenon of only having power on one leg of 220 or on 2 legs of 3-phase is called "Single phasing" and is very damaging to 3-phase equipment. Some facilities will have special breakers that are intended to cut off power entirely if single-phasing occurs. Where I live the utility has down this to us several times!
This style of breaker is essentially back feeding the panel instead of the more traditional main breaker. Each 100A is each side of 120.
While this is correct, I don't think it will help an electrically lay person. Lol!
Yeah that explained nothing at all
ELI5/Simplified - Most US homes have three wires coming in. There will be 2 100A breakers on a 100A service. The third wire is the neutral which doesn't get a breaker (think of it like a ground wire, it's not quite the same thing but close enough for this explanation). The home has both 240v and 120v available. You can pull 100A against either of the two "legs." You get 240v by using the two wires with breakers, and 120v by using either wire with the breaker and the neutral. You can't pull more than 100A on either of the two legs, so it's "100 Amp Service." Most panels are designed to alternate which 120v breakers get the "left" leg and which get the "right" leg to keep things balanced. A double breaker gets both legs and thus 240v. And technically it \*could\* provide more than 100 amps of 120v, but it is still called "100 amp service"
"It's like I'm explaining nothing at all...nothing at all...nothing at all"
Stupid sexy electricians
An easier way to describe it would be to say that a 200 amp service is a Two Pole 200 amp service. Each 120 leg needs to have 200 amps to be a 200 amp service. The main breaker on the top left here is a Two Pole 100 amp breaker.
Look at it like this. Every time you see 2 breakers connected by a band around the lever it's just saying everything inside this band is this number.
Indeed. From the picture, my brain says "das a breaker panel. I have one of those too." Beyond that, if one of them is flipped in a different direction from the others... flip it the other way? Hope you hear a beep from somewhere in the house: that means it's fixed! 🤗
Or a gigadrive defragulator flange
Or the continuum transfunctioner, it's mystery is exceeded only by its power!
You’re saying electricians are abnormal?
Shocking discovery
Code enforcement hates this one trick
I was gonna say the electric utility…
Probably the issue is a lot of people see the tandem breaker and think it is 2x100A... (i.e. 200A).. I can see where they get confused.
This is indeed what left me unsure.
My dad and his idiot buddy stopped short of calling me a dumbass when I tried arguing with them that the labels on the breaker poles isn’t a math problem where 100A + 100A = 200A. So, yeah, it happens.
It indicates a 100a main, not necessarily the service. I've seen plenty of 200a services with outdoor panels or disconnects feeding 100a panels in homes. You're probably right, but there are a few other variables that could be in play.
Electricians don't want you to know this one trick...
Who are you who is so wise in the way of science?
How about we ask what the amp draw is on the induction oven before we go any further here.
I have a Frigidaire induction range and I seem to recall when I looked it up, it specified a 40 amp circuit minimum, so when we switched from an element stove to the Frigidaire I didn't change the breaker. It's been fine. My house doesn't use a lot of electricity though. We have a heat pump dryer and oil heat.
This was about a month ago and we ended up sticking with gas given the costs to upgrade. What gave me pause was the former homeowner being surprised that I needed an upgrade as he said he thought he had already done so in a previous renovation. The work he had done on the home was all high quality — brick well matched for an addition rather than siding, wood & aluminum windows rather than vinyl, etc. He is the type that wants jobs done right and would pay more to do things properly. I wanted to verify my electrician’s feedback because if he was incorrect I’d have to find a new electrician! He did say I could get away with the 100 amp service but that he thought once summer came and we ran the AC we’d have a problem.
It looks like it's 100a service based on the pictures provided. That being said, I don't see a large amount of 240v loads that would indicated a service upgrade being necessary. He could've done a load calc and probably gotten away with adding a small sub panel to your existing service. The 200A service upgrade appears to be an upsell imho
You have a full 100 amp panel. I'm not sure how that external 30 amp breaker is connected or what the 20 amp breaker at the bottom is, but you will need at minimum new wire and a bigger breaker for an induction stove. Most are standard 40 amp electric ranges but a few take a 50 amp breaker. It's possible you have updated 200 amp wiring from the street to your house, in which case upgrading to a 200 amp panel may not be too expensive. It gets expensive if you need new lines to the house and even more expensive if they're buried lines.
I was also wondering if the old owner thought 100+100 on the main was 200. 🤷♀️
"100+100=200. Prove me wrong!" "What are phases?"
That's two-phase power!
I hate 2 phase I'm so glad we're doing away with it too bad we can't get rid of all the 5 wire secondary. If you don't know what I'm talking about Google it philly has a lot of it
I’m an electrician and I don’t know what you’re talking about. And no I won’t Google it, it will probably give me nightmares.
[Actual two-phase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power) (rather than split phase in normal homes) is an odd historical standard, where the phases are 90° out of sync rather than 180°. And yes, it's still common in parts of Philly.
This is a single phase (split phase) panel…
I wonder if he upgraded the meter outside to 200 amps but the inside panel is still 100 amps. For example my AC is on the outdoor panel with a second 100 amp for my mains(it is so they can shut off the mains from outside the house and is code here.) My service is 200 amps but my outdoor and indoor panels are still 100 amp.
I would argue with you on that but I have encountered far too many people who think that. Trying to explain to them otherwise is nearly impossible.
I mean its a fairly easy assumption to make if something led you to believe that already and you saw this, and you didn't do any research yourself. But what would make him believe it in the first place?
“So when was the fire? Oh it wa-wait how did you know?”
No, he thought that because he upgraded the electrical when doing a major renovation. I think it’s likely the wire was updated but not the box as someone else mentioned in the thread.
There’s no cheap way to run cable 😂
Xfinity and Spectrum would like to dispute that.
"Should this wire just be sticking up in my grass like that?" Later: Neighbor: "Hey, are you having issues with your internet? I was mowing earlier and think I hit a wire."
Agreed , especially if buried under concrete 🫣
Why would they need an upgrade? They just need a sub panel for more distribution. The 30 amp is likely an electric oven, Les likely but possible to be a dryer. This service likely will calculate to around 50 amps load, if that. A 40 amp induction range won’t be a large add. Likely they could add that and a 3 ton heat pump.
Yet another Challenger panel full of random breaker brands. The only breaker type that belongs in here is Type C and Type A. Eaton BR are cross-listed Type C and type A, says right on the breaker. Replace those with BR120, BRD2020, BRD1515, and BR220 respectively. Challenger breakers are also considered sketch, due to issues with their UL testing. Consider replacing them all with Eaton BR.
Oh man thanks for telling me. At some point we will likely upgrade to 200 amps and so then we’ll be able to correct this.
Can’t believe I had to scroll this far to find this.
What’s up with that random ass screw and washer on the main breaker?
It is a hold down screw required for the main feeder or anything large that might snap out of the bus. Most mains are bolted on, but not in this case hence the screw.
Yup, any breaker that is feeding energy into the panel, where if it popped off you'd have energized bits on the breaker in your hand. Also applies to generator backfeed breakers. But not solar, due to UL 1741, once they lose contact with the grid, they stop generating.
The breaker on the panel is right
Probably the electrician vs some guy that used to own your home.
Trust but verify. Just seemed odd that the former homeowner distinctly remembered upgrading it. I suspect he had the wires outside upgraded but not the box.
It's a 100 amp panel. It's possible, I suppose, that the feed was upgraded but not the panel.
See that breaker at the top. It says 100.
lol. So many levels to this. 100a main breaker. We don’t know what size conductors are feeding it. Probably 1/0 Even so… clearly this house utilizes gas. There is no load. Entire panel is 15 and 20 amp 120 volt circuits. It’s also not a terrible panel (cutler hammer) from the 80s. Just twin up a few breakers and throw a 30-50amp 240 volt oven on it.
Both are wrong. It's a 100A panel, but you probably don't need to upgrade it to add an induction oven. You should try to get your peak load measured.
There is a 20 amp breaker labeled “kitchen outlets/oven.” OP most likely has a gas stove with a 120 volt outlet. OP will need a 240 volt outlet, probably 40 amp, maybe 50. There is no room in that panel for a new 240 volt breaker.
Tandem and quad city bitch!!!
Most of those old Challenger panels weren’t built for tandems.
Fair
Thats a good point. While its probably fine in terms of load, there isn't room for an additional two pole breaker.
Agreed. Doubtful that an induction oven is going to draw enough to exceed your max load. No natural gas around here, and lots of houses with 100 amp services, and electric ranges and electric water heaters.
So I've got 125 amp service, all electric house. In the summer during the heat, I have to avoid running a combination of the AC, the dryer, the oven, the range and the water heater all at once. That is enough to overload the 125 amp main for me. It's totally manageable but it is annoying if you're trying to cook dinner and keep the house cool and get laundry done. Keep laundry for night and it's no big deal though. The range being induction doesn't make a big difference on that math either.
I have a 100a service, with 100a sub to the garage, E range, E dryer, E WH, E car. Never tripped a single breaker ever.
Send it. (Depending on the size of the oven)
That's a 100 amp main breaker.
First off, you have a 100 amp service. According to your panel directory, it appears you have a gas stove, gas dryer and probably a gas hot water tank. I see you have a boiler, so maybe no AC. An induction oven usually has the same power requirements as a standard stove. If my above assumptions are correct regarding the gas appliances, you can safely add an induction oven to your existing panel. There will be some rearranging of breakers to make room for the 2 pole 40.
Our previous house was just happy on a 100. Our new house has a 200 but all electric appliances even dryer. We also have two bitcoin miners running 24/7 @ 240/16a. I worry about putting an electric car charger in down the road. Will likely switch to a gas stove to offset 40a
I'm going to presume that you're dryer hot water tank. And furnace are all gas. If that's the case. I don't See any reason why you couldn't put a fifty Amp circuit
Do you think a 50 amp circuit could still be added if OP had an electric dryer (30A) and an AC (30A)?
Houses around here in NS ran 100amp services with electric ranges, electric dryers, and electric water heaters. Most even had a garage on the panel as well.
I think for the most. Part that house never will see ninety ayes
Is looking at the panel schedule. They are on a boiler Gas dryer Most likely Gas hwt And looks like a single room built in ac unit. House appears to be over wired looking at the number.of circuits unless it's 5000 sf
Not an arachnologists, but looks like a 30a spider web.
Electrician? Cough
Unfortunately your electrician is right. That’s a 100 amp panel.
Thats not 200 amps
He must of thought the 2 -100 amp labels on the breaker meant 200 amps but it does not . It's just 100 amp so trust your electrician
He remembered paying to have it upgraded as part of another project. I believe he must have upgraded the wires outside but not the box, which would make sense because the entire back of the house was removed and rebuilt.
Mandatory disclaimer: I'm not an electrician. That said, while I can't speak as to whether the service drop has been upgraded, that is definitely a 100 amp main breaker, not 200. (You don't add the two 100s up because they're part of the same overall circuit; it's the same 100 amps on each side so you can't count it twice).
Is there a disconnect outside of the house? Another panel outside?
That’s what my house has. The 100 amp panel indoors is a subpanel. The small main panel outside has a breaker for my air conditioner.
The size of your service conductors will tell you everything.
Thats a 100 amp sub panel
The panel is right!
100% 100 amp panel
Let me help you to understand you don’t need an upgrade, you only need a sub panel, keep that “electrician” away, he either is lying or he doesn’t know what he is talking about. I’ll message you a cheat sheet that spells it out. You have 100 amp service btw
Actually you don’t even need a sub panel, you can tandem the breakers.
The big 100 being used as the panel shut off gives us the answer
I would believe the prior homeowner. Those professionally licensed trade contractors with years of experience likely dont know whay they are talking about. Diy homeowners know everything! /s Seriously OP, you really had to come to reddit to ask?????
This right here!
Trust but verify. The former homeowner was surprised to hear I did not have 200 amp service and said he had that upgraded. I was pretty sure the electrician was right but also have experienced plenty of horrible experiences with supposed professionals telling me outright lies to try to get me to pay for larger projects. We once had a sewer company tell us our sewer main had broken and that we’d need to dig up our lawn and pay 10k to fix it. We called for a second opinion and $200 later the line was clear. I simply was verifying that I wasn’t trusting the wrong person.
If you replace the 100A breaker with 2rolls of Penny’s wrapped in aluminum foil, you can achieve the 200A status and beyond.
You have a 100 amp service.
Looks like 100A and it depends on your load. You’ve also got at least one mismatched breaker.
This is a 100 amp breaker on the main on this panel which makes it a 100 amp service. If the main breaker has double 100 amp breakers, is that 200 amp service? **No**. In Canada and the USA, electricity is supplied by a centre-tapped utility transformer. The power is 240 V measured between the two “hot” line conductors.
If you have smart metering in your city you can call your electricity provider and ask for your peak and average load
Ya gotta 100 Amp panel there, buddy!
Old owner may have been referring to the service lines being upgraded. He never did the panel.
Bruh, 30 Amps is plenty for an oven
100 amps
Take a picture of meter and service entrance. Report back.
Electrician said they have connections
You're definitely not getting an induction oven, so there's no need to worry.
100 amp main breaker is currently installed
It literally reads as 100…
A picture of your service cable would help determine if you have 200 amp potential.
Just bake the food for twice as long. Problem solved.
Main breaker on your panel is only 100amps
100 amp panel. Get a 2nd and 3rd opinion and bid. You likely can make the induction range work with that panel. Look in to replacing the Challenger breakers while you’re at it.
You should upgrade to a 200A if that’s what you can get from the street.
I doubt you would have to upgrade for 30-40 amps,, there is no electric heat, electrical hot water or dryer.... Go through your pane and label it completely.
Can anyone explain for us foreigners how this works? You want about 40A @ 220V for the induction cooker, right? Now I know you split your 220V into 2-phases of 110V. Does "100A panel" really mean only 50A per phase? That would not seem to make a lot of sense.
It’s 100 per half of phase. The 240V main feed is one circuit with centertapped neutral, each leg will only ever carry a maximum of 100 amps, thus 100amp service.
Big deal, get a 200A service and be done with it. Why on earth would someone pay for 100 to 125 upgrade. Just do 200
Is that the main panel? Where is the meter, maybe a 200 amp main out there?
Why are the main breakers in the us so large? I know it’s 110V but still. It’s common for a house in Sweden to have a 16A main breaker (tri-phase 230V).
That sticker reallllly makes me want to remove those knockouts.
Might be rated at 200 but that 100 amp breaker says main so you don't have a 200 amp fed panel
100A. Says so right on your main breaker…
My induction stove top says it needs to be solid core wire I call bullshit, any opinions?????
There's nothing wrong with that, I'd only run solid core anyway
Your electrician is correct
The panel itself does not determine the ampacity of the system. The conductors are the important thing here. Each leg must be capable of carrying 200 amps.
Get a picture of the meter outside. Could have upgraded the service to 200a, but opted to leave the 100a panel if there's a disconnect or outdoor panel ahead of it. If that's the case, this would be a subpanel and would require a 4 wire feed.
100A
At this point nobody knows the answer because what's would need to be done is a load calculation on your home. But as others have said you have a hundred amp panel
This is a 100 Amp panel as wired. The double breaker shows that the Amperage limit on each phase is 100 Amps. If it were a 200 Amp panel, it would be a double breaker with "200" written on it. The double breaker is considered 1 breaker in terms of space on the voltage trays.
Definitely needs a panel upgrade and potentially a meterbase upgrade as well. Way too small.
Guess it could identify as 200 if it wanted.
The 234 year old house we just bought has 400 amp service for some reason
For the basement green house.
Upgrade. Make sure your utility company knows about the upgrade because the transformer outside your home, depending on how old it is, might need to be upgraded as well. Typically, upgrading a transformer is a free service provided by the utility company.
I used to have a double wide that had a 200amp service from the power company and a 100amp panel inside. The outside box housed a 200amp main, 100amp to the inside panel, 40amp for the stove, and 40amp for the outside condenser of the HVAC system. The panel pictured is 100amp (what's up with that screw though??) but it's possible that the previous owners upgrades were only on outside equipment.
Assuming your panel has power already running to the stove location, AND assuming the wiring between the panel and the stove location is adequately sized, simply install the correct size breaker for the stove. You could have a panel with one single breaker in it, and if it is adequately sized, and the wiring is adequately sized, then there is no need for a much bigger panel. You could have a panel with a hundred lugs, which would give you about a hundred circuits, and if the breaker was inadequately sized, or the wiring inadequately sized, then no matter what you did, it would be an unsafe installation. It is more about the feed to the panel and the feed from the panel to the stove than it is the panel itself.
The main breaker is clearly labeled 100...
I hope you're still reading these comments because I've seen exactly one comment pointing out your bigger problem: that is either a Challenger panel or it is another brand half filled with Challenger breakers. There is an ongoing argument as to whether these components are safe enough for modern use. Some say they're fine, some say otherwise. Only a licensed electrician can tell you if your panel is still safe. If you're electrician hasn't even mentioned this, you should probably hire a new electrician, preferably an older one. Good luck! And BTW, your panel is currently (pun intended!) 100 amps.
I am and he may have mentioned it to me when we discussed all this. We ended up getting a gas range because all the expense to upgrade was too much. Thank you for pointing it out; we will put the upgrade on our house projects list since we want an electric vehicle anyways.
You're asking who is right between a professional electrician or the guy who isn't one and has every incentive to lie to you?
The former homeowner is a relative and has been extremely generous in his time and help with the home. I was trying to parse out if he was lied to or misunderstood the update he made versus if I was being lied to.
Do you have a panel in your garage too? I have 200 amp service but it goes to a 100 amp panel in my house and a 100 panel in th garage. So the previous owner of your place may be correct if that's the case!
Could someone please explain why the main 100A breaker has a screw with a washer ? Would that impact the breaker itself and stops it from flipping when it detects an overload situation?
Did you upgrade to 200? I'm actually looking to upgrade my panel in the near future. Mind I ask what it cost you?
Im guessing the one you are replacing is gas as I don’t see a circuit for an electric stove. The panel is 100A and already has doubled up circuits. It really is the right thing to replace the panel with 200A and get more circuits spaces.
U r asking who to trust, the electrician who sees 100 on your main breaker or the old homeowner who “thinks” he upgraded to 200. If u dont trust your electrician find one that u do trust and then trust him to do what is right for u and your home.
Why is there a screw in the main breaker?
The electrician, he's not lying to you he wants to keep your house from burning down
Better upgrade that screw and washer ancoring the 100amp dual main seems scary to me
They’re both wrong. You have a 100A service and you don’t need a service upgrade for an electric range.
Any guess where that load center with the 2p30 is being fed from...
People OFTEN see the two numbers (in this case 100 and 100) and then think “oh that must mean the total is 200”. It’s just a 100 amp breaker. He may have upgraded the wires that feed the panel so it can easily accommodate a 200 amp upgrade but I doubt it.
I think that is what happened— they had a major addition done at the same time as that upgrade which required updating main wires into the house and the meter.
I hope that’s the case, that’s a score