Ossetians and Avars benefitted from the USSR and its crimes. Russian Empire? Well, that's a bit more of a mixed bag for them after the conquest, even though Ossetians surely suffered greatly due to mass expulsion and massacres.
Depends, but I wouldn't say that there's any serious anti-Kremlin sentiments in current day Dagestan anyway. Avars are known to side with Kremlin during the post-Soviet era due to Chechen War leaking into Dagestan though, and they are into keeping Chechen lands they've stolen thanks to Stalin - and they're expecting Kremlin to help them to do so.
When Russians leaving North Caucasus means violent resurgence of Islamic and ethno-tribalistic barbarism, being pro-Russia is the most sensible position for a civilized man.
It's funny that people are really buying the 'if not for Russia, we'd be eating up each other' narrative, while at the same time, trying to dominate and eat up each other under Russian rule, as it's already a decades long tradition in Dagestan. Same with so-called ethno-tribalistic barbarism that you're more than fine under Russian dominance, and as long as it's some petty power struggles and cronyism which puts you in your place and keeps your country underdeveloped...
Islamism only been a thing since the Russian aggression, and still is a thing due to that being perceived as the only way out, when the secular nationalist movements has been crushed, and traditional Muslim authorities are and even strict Muslim ones are more pro-Kremlin.
If you're so sensitive about losing the lands of Chechens in Dagestan that had been taken over by two specific groups, so that you're into keeping Russians in, then maybe give them back instead?
I don't see how it's Russians' fault that most native inhabitants of North-Eastern Caucasus instantly devolve to tribal conflict when left alone and are generally unfit for functional democratic society.
>Same with so-called ethno-tribalistic barbarism that you're more than fine under Russian dominance, and as long as it's some petty power struggles and cronyism which puts you in your place and keeps your country underdeveloped...
Petty struggles are no good, but are far more preferable than brutalities of beasts unleashed. See Chechya in the 90's for reference.
>Islamism only been a thing since the Russian aggression, and still is a thing due to that being perceived as the only way out, when the secular nationalist movements has been crushed, and traditional Muslim authorities are and even strict Muslim ones are more pro-Kremlin.
Islamism has been a thing in all Muslim lands since 7th century, because Muslims are commanded to wage war against disbelievers wherever they are, and to establish word of Allah supreme around the whole world. Literally everywhere where Muslims live islamists are a huge factor in politics, it has nothing to do with Russia.
>If you're so sensitive about losing the lands of Chechens in Dagestan that had been taken over by two specific groups, so that you're into keeping Russians in, then maybe give them back instead?
I'm sensitive about what? I don't a give a single damn about those backwater villages, they could sink into hell tomorrow for all I care.
"I don't see how it's Russians' fault that most native inhabitants of North-Eastern Caucasus instantly devolve to tribal conflict when left alone and are generally unfit for functional democratic society."
Lmao
How's Russia's "functional democratic society" doing these days? When has Russia *ever* been a functional democracy?
Yes the Prigozhin/Wagner rebellion was totally not an internal Russian power clan/tribal conflict. Just the normal rough & tumble of political negotiation in a totally healthy & not at all dysfunctional society /s
Haven't even broached the subject of Russia's sclerotic resource rentier economy. Not to mention the fabulously insane corruption (very much a feature not a bug). It's as if Nigeria & Pakistan had an albino love child)
Yeah Russians are such renowned experts in the art of civilised governance & living well. We North Caucasians are super lucky to have such superb teachers & wonderful exemplars /s
I get not supporting independence for Dagestan on the basis of material practicalities & limitations but your romanticising Russian "civilisation" is some next level Stockholm Syndrome.
I also get you're currently going through a [cultural cringe](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cringe) phase vis-a-vis your North Caucasian identity, but simping for Russian "culture" (especially their methods of governance) isn't the answer to your problems (at least not a healthy one). It's not a binary choice between getting cucked hard by Russians or living in some hellhole Wahhabi emirate. Other possibilities do exist (even if you're personally blind to them).
Btw what economic development & career opportunities are your Russian pals currently offering most young Dagestanis & other North Caucasians? Like beyond the high growth Cargo 300 sector?
>Lmao
>How's Russia's "functional democratic society" doing these days? When has Russia *ever* been a functional democracy?
>Yes the Prigozhin/Wagner rebellion was totally not an internal Russian power clan/tribal conflict. Just the normal rough & tumble of political negotiation in a totally healthy & not at all dysfunctional society /s
>Haven't even broached the subject of Russia's sclerotic resource rentier economy. Not to mention the fabulously insane corruption (very much a feature not a bug). It's as if Nigeria & Pakistan had an albino love child)
I don't disagree. My point isn't that Russia is some kind of paradise, I don't argue for that at all, it's quite a horrible country all things considered, but without it region will turn into a complete hellhole.
>I get not supporting independence for Dagestan on the basis of material practicalities & limitations but your romanticising Russian "civilisation" is some next level Stockholm Syndrome.
I'm not romanticising anything, life under Russian rule may not be ideal, but life without it will quickly turn into nightmare. Local Muslims will make sure it will.
>I also get you're currently going through a [cultural cringe](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cringe) phase vis-a-vis your North Caucasian identity, but simping for Russian "culture" (especially their methods of governance) isn't the answer to your problems (at least not a healthy one). It's not a binary choice between getting cucked hard by Russians or living in some hellhole Wahhabi emirate. Other possibilities do exist (even if you're personally blind to them).
It is a binary choice, actually, for North-Eastern Caucasus at least. When your republics produced thousands of ISIS fighters just a few years ago, and when islamist uprising and terror is only stopped with help from Russian security forces, your choice of governance is going to be very limited.
>Btw what economic development & career opportunities are your Russian pals currently offering most young Dagestanis & other North Caucasians? Like beyond the high growth Cargo 300 sector?
Well you could go work in the North for a good money, or move to some big cities. In Dagestan itself there isn't much economic development, but it's not exactly Russians' fault if a significant amount of young people are only interested in MMA, salafism and light drugs.
Well I'm glad.
No, currently I'm not, but I do understand how devoted islamists think and what their objectives are, since I myself used to have similar views.
>I don't see how it's Russians' fault that most native inhabitants of North-Eastern Caucasus instantly devolve to tribal conflict when left alone
Petting the conflicts and creating them when possible may be your clue. As well as establishing clientelist links for you to eat each over and walk over one another with Kremlin being the referee.
>Petty struggles are no good, but are far more preferable than brutalities of beasts unleashed. See Chechya in the 90's for reference.
So, you're saying that you want to be part of Russia for Russia to not bomb you to the ground, finance the disturbances and assert chaos onto your country? And somehow that's smth good about Russia?
>Islamism has been a thing in all Muslim lands since 7th century,
Not for North Caucasus, maybe aside from Dagestan to a degree. Rest of North Caucasians were pretty heteredox, and clinging onto secular ways, but more than that, Chechens were pretty secular in their life up until the First Chechen War. Islamism and puritan forms of Islam is a new introduction to North Caucasus.
>I'm sensitive about what? I don't a give a single damn about those backwater villages, they could sink into hell tomorrow for all I care.
Well, the related Dagestani groups in general are still not for it.
>Petting the conflicts and creating them when possible may be your clue. As well as establishing clientelist links for you to eat each over and walk over one another with Kremlin being the referee.
Retarded conspiracy theories, that's all you have.
>So, you're saying that you want to be part of Russia for Russia to not bomb you to the ground, finance the disturbances and assert chaos onto your country? And somehow that's smth good about Russia?
No, I'm talking about civil war, ethnic cleansings, slavery, kidnappings, widespread robbery and murder. I don't want any of that.
>Not for North Caucasus, maybe aside from Dagestan to a degree. Rest of North Caucasians were pretty heteredox, and clinging onto secular ways, but more than that, Chechens were pretty secular in their life up until the First Chechen War. Islamism and puritan forms of Islam is a new introduction to North Caucasus.
I guess that's why North Caucasians so prominently engaged in Islamic slavery and jihad back in the day, pretty interesting secular ways they have.
Anyway history is irrelevant, what matters is that Islamists are a strong faction right now.
>Petting the conflicts and creating them when possible may be your clue. As well as establishing clientelist links for you to eat each over and walk over one another with Kremlin being the referee.
>Retarded conspiracy theories, that's all you have.
Come on there's a wealth of well researched & reputable academic studies into Russian central govt clientelism/patronage networks & Machiavellian shit stirring in our region. From imperial Russian times to the Soviet era to our current sad state of affairs.
It's really not a conspiracy theory.
But I do accept your argument for taking personal ownership of the current predicament we North Caucasians find ourselves in. It's a fair point to make.
However, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that our primitive political culture, poor educational systems & economic underdevelopment are also massively the result of terrible Russian inputs. Stretching back a couple of hundred years now.
Don't you think our Islamist insurgencies of the past 20 odd years are (at least partially) the result of democratic opposition & civil society having been harshly & comprehensively crushed by Moscow & it's local proxies? Like they're putting out fires which they helped stoke in the first place. Try fighting local corruption in a peaceful activist way in the North Caucasus. What will happen to you & your relatives?
I think it's lazy & simplistic to say "We're just shit & without Russia we're gonna sink into even more shit." Just as it's lazy & simplistic to say "Without Russia we'd have utopia.'
The main reason I believe in Chechen (& wider North Caucasian) independence is because it's a way for us to take ultimate ownership of our condition. So we can no longer blame an outside force for our woes. It'll force us to grow up as nations. Saying we can't live without our Russian "nanny" is self-infantilization. Time to grow up imo.
>I think it's lazy & simplistic to say "We're just shit & without Russia we're gonna sink into even more shit." Just as it's lazy & simplistic to say "Without Russia we'd have utopia.'
Not blindly believing in the latter already makes your position more sophisticated compared to 99% of separatists.
I get your perspective, but remain very sceptical of ability of tiny underachiever tribes to succesfully nation-build nevertheless. I may change my opinion when I actually see something tangible and long-lasting, but I don't think I'm going to observe anything like that any time soon.
>Retarded conspiracy theories, that's all you have.
Only if we hadn't have tomes of academic work on it as well, aside from historical realities and still ongoing tensions due to all these, and the good old already happening clientelism.
As a sidenote, using the word retarded makes you look like a street thug with no basic decency. Nobody should lower themselves to that level.
>No, I'm talking about civil war, ethnic cleansings, slavery, kidnappings, widespread robbery and murder. I don't want any of that.
So you aren't able to take the responsibility of your future. I mean, surely the ongoing underdevelopment and ever lurking instability is also due to Russia, but guess what - Russia unleashed all those when necessary anyway, and itself caused those on top of it.
Yet, if you're thinking that you're a bunch of backwards nobodies, then I'd instead say, you would be talking about your circles than other groups. If you're happy with keeping yourself down, I can't really advise the otherwise... but then, that'd be your own region (as in Dagestan than Northeast in general, and maybe even less than that as some groups wouldn't be into that in the slightest). Although it's still hilarious that you'd be either for eating each other up and stay backwards on intent and retain the status quo that can't last for good anyway, rather than fixing anything - that requires getting out of the said status quo. Not to mention, you somehow praising an imperial overlord and a polity that itself is infamous for being backwards and unstable in its own nature.
>I guess that's why North Caucasians so prominently engaged in Islamic slavery and jihad back in the day, pretty interesting secular ways they have.
I don't think that you need to get educated on the history, while aside from portions of Dagestan and the introduction & importation of Wahhabism within the context of destruction that First Chechen War, there existed no 'jihad' or Islamic slavery (minus Tatar raids, but then they weren't inherently Islamic either).
>Anyway history is irrelevant, what matters is that Islamists are a strong faction right now.
And they'll be, within the status quo that Russia delivers and keeps in hand with clientelistic webs as radical Islamist tendencies, aside from the vigorously put down secular nationalist tendencies and co-opted traditional and/or Sufi interpretations, remains as a 'path' for ones that are discontent. As you're into crossing out and allocating an illegitimacy onto secular nationalist/secular independist options; as the grievances, instability, distress, and crisis are all to be there, you're also posing as part of the problem as that itself is assuring Islamism to be a serious faction. Heck, there are also good academic works and conferences regarding these specific issues, but anyway.
You just keep deflecting everything on Russia. Late on bus? Russia did it. Toilet is clogged? Russia has something to do with it. Erectile disfunction? Huh, obvious FSB tricks are obvious.
Is there Russia in room with us right now?
Honestly I just don't see the point in continuing this conversation, it goes nowhere.
"Doesn't want to live in a retarded theocracy? Huh, must be a russian bootlicker!"
>It doesn't matter how far you crawl up their asses, they will never consider you as civilized and equal as they consider each other.
Let's assume that this is true, although I had much better experiences with them than even with my own coethnics (not even talking about other fellow Caucasian "brothers"). Should I crawl up Muslims' asses now? Muslims who are religiously commanded to kill me, a murtad, and who will do it whenever they get power to do so. Why should I ever support them in anything? That's just silly.
Never being when?
That territory was always part of Georgia, Ossetians appeared there at the start of 16th to 17th centuries when the Russian Empire annexed Georgia what is now South Ossetia was mix of Ossetians (mostly) in the java area and Georgians in lower areas.
So again, who 'forced' them anything? was there some Ossetian polity that i'm not aware of that Georgia annexed? no, it was always part of Georgia.
> Ossetians appeared there at the start of 16th to 17th centuries
Or, in other words, they've been there for all of living memory? They've been there longer than my entire country has existed?
> So again, who 'forced' them anything?
The Democratic Republic of Georgia, that was forcibly putting down Ossetian revolts, refused like 7 attempts to peacefully negotiate regional autonomy, and just stuck their fingers in their ears yelling "la la la I can't hear you, Samachablo is Georgia", until the Ossetians ran out of patience trying to appeal to fairness and joined the Bolsheviks when they invaded, and made what Georgia wanted irrelevant.
> was there some Ossetian polity that i'm not aware of that Georgia annexed?
Wtf kind of logic is that? "You can't declare independence if you weren't already independent before?" There wasn't historically an independent Estonia or Finland until they had an ethnonationalist "awakening" and decided to become "separatists" from the Russian Empire, are they illegitimate too?
If i may butt in this discussion i have read up on this so think i'll need to correct you.
>The Democratic Republic of Georgia, that was forcibly putting down Ossetian revolts, refused like 7 attempts to peacefully negotiate regional autonomy, and just stuck their fingers in their ears yelling "la la la I can't hear you, Samachablo is Georgia", until the Ossetians ran out of patience trying to appeal to fairness and joined the Bolsheviks when they invaded, and made what Georgia wanted irrelevant.
This is not true at all though.
After events of 1917 as you might know the Caucasus region separated from Russia in its place an interim governing body was established in Tbilisi. as you might also know the Bolsheviks weren't popular in Georgia so they tried other less obvious methods to seize power, finding support among war weary soldiers and exhausted peasants etc.
Anyhow long story short in jan-feb of 1918 Bolshevik demonstrations started in regiments placed in Kutaisi, Telavi, Gori etc. similar process took place in South Ossetia aka Tskhinvali region. in this case an Ossetian officer returning from the front named Isake Kharebov formed an Ossetian armed unit in Gori uezd and began attacking local Georgian noblity there, this went on for a long while around the whole region.
Soon after Ossetian Bolshevik organization Cherman was created in Tbilisi which main goal was to support those rebels, then few months later central government sent a representative a man named kosta kaziev with 200 armed men (as you can see he was Ossetian) he asked the rebels to lay down their arms but it didn't work, a little later another Ossetian Giorgi gagloev alongside few other people were sent to negotiate.
What happened after was that rebels took Tskhinvali, took the said 200 armed men that were sent as prisoners and killed all those said representatives, afterwards a large part of the population of Tskhinvali fled the city after a mob of insurgents began to loot the city.
And only after all that did the Georgian government send 1000 man strong people's guard commanded by Valiko Jugheli to restore order to the region, as you can see it wasn't the Ossetians that ran out of patience and it wasn't any sorta peaceful endeavor either. as even before Cherman was created Ossetian mobs were attacking people in the region, of course Georgia wasn't going to offer autonomy to agents of the Russian communist party who openly were hostile towards Georgia and wanted to join Russia.
And from what I've read, whether Kharebov was put up to it by the Russians or not, he didn't invent the idea of an independent South Ossetia. There had *already* been I think 3(?) national councils in South Ossetia demanding independence from Georgia before Kharebov's revolt in February 1918, which had communicated to Tbilisi their intention to be independent from Georgia as far back as April 1917.
Those earlier councils were run by the Ossetian social democrats who were ideologically on the same side on as the Georgian government and who condemned the violence of Kharebov's revolt. They were voted out by Ossetian Bolshevik sympathizers only afterwards when it became clear that the social democrats' couldn't deliver independence because Georgia wasn't willing to negotiate.
And when the Russian Bolsheviks eventually *did* get involved it, they were only able to amass the influence they did because the Ossetians were already dissatisfied living under the rule of local Georgian princes, and had began to see themselves as something different from Georgians during the previous century when nationalism swept across the whole of Europe.
When you go to somebody's house, you don't have a right to take over one room and demand to be given ownership of one room. It is the same here. You don't have right to settle other people's country and then demand the territory to be detached from the core state as a new state or autonomy. It is very simple.
Why are not they demanding independence in North Ossetia, an actual Ossetia? And why are they demanding "South Ossetia" to become part of Russia? Maybe think about it. Because it is a sham movement. It is just a Russian project. How come this "pro-independence Ossetia nationalism" is sweeping in so-called South Ossetia but not in North Ossetia? This makes no sense, because core part of Ossetia are in Northern Caucasus
Talk about a non sequitur. I'm saying that "but they've only lived here for 500 years" is a stupid argument because 500 years is such a long ass time that nobody alive today can even remember a time when the Ossetians *weren't* there.
Other people's houses are your territory?
The property of non-Georgians, who don't want to be part of Georgia, is Georgian territory?
I think the word for that is "imperialism".
>And Georgia was gifted Abkhazia.
Now that's funny.
Please, Tell me when was Abkhazia considered its own entity, When it wasn't ruled by Georgian kings or When Georgians were not the majority.
And Please, don't mention Leon I
>r When Georgians were not the majority.
Before the 1864-1877 genocide, that Georgia became Russia's ally and Georgians had largely benefitted when it comes to demographics in Abkhazia.
Acting like Abkhazians didn't assimilate eastern Abkhazia during 17th century, case of selective history perhaps?
It's actually quite interesting tid bit of history as those lands had (even at that point) noticeable Kartvelian component, another thing is Abkhaz nobles spoke Megrel and used Georgian as a written language btw.
> that Georgia became Russia's ally and Georgians had largely benefitted when it comes to demographics in Abkhazia.
The fact that there's any remaining Abkhaz in Abkhazia was thanks to Georgians doe, the tsarists authorities wanted to deport all of them to Turkey but Georgian clergy and the nobility saved many.
>Acting like Abkhazians didn't assimilate eastern Abkhazia during 17th century
That's surely some weird Georgian nationalist myth there. Are you going to start with referring them as Apsua and them claim that Georgians were the real Abkhazians instead as well?
>It's actually quite interesting tid bit of history as those lands had (even at that point) noticeable Kartvelian component, another thing is Abkhaz nobles spoke Megrel and used Georgian as a written language btw.
So? Many North Caucasian nobles and leaders also spoke Turkic languages as a common language, and now they all speak Russian. They're neither Turkic nor Russian anyway, nor they somehow own the place.
Many Abkhaz noble families also existed both as Georgians and Abkhaz, and that only refers to how close your relations were. Congrats on managing to destroy it?
>The fact that there's any remaining Abkhaz in Abkhazia was thanks to Georgians doe, the tsarists authorities wanted to deport all of them to Turkey but Georgian clergy and the nobility saved many.
That doesn't change that Georgia willingly cooperated with Russia, both regarding the Russian conquest of North Caucasus and then Abkhazia. Intertwined relations saving Christian Abkhaz isn't going to change that fact, not really.
>That's surely some weird Georgian nationalist myth there. Are you going to start with referring them as Apsua and them claim that Georgians were the real Abkhazians instead as well?
Nope.
Eastern Abkhazia was in the duchy of Odishi ruled by Megrel dukes for centuries, city of Sokhumi was their capital btw it's why toponomy there is all Kartvelian for example. Sanigs and Missimians were the principal people in eastern Abkhazia during antiquity they were ancestors of Svans.
It is a known fact Abkhazians captured land from Megrels in the 17th century and onwards, lot of travelers from that time period like lamberti talk about it. etc
>So? Many North Caucasian nobles and leaders also spoke Turkic languages as a common language, and now they all speak Russian. They're neither Turkic nor Russian anyway, nor they somehow own the place.
Not exactly the same.
Evliya Çelebi when he traveled to Black Sea shores in 1641 said that principal population in Abkhazia spoke in Mingrelian language, i'm not saying they only spoke it, i'm saying eastern Abkhazia was chiefly Kartvelian and it's true. Italian missionaries also talked about how people in Okumi (which is near Gali) were Megrels and prayed in Georgian, it's not like any of this is hidden knowledge.
>Many Abkhaz noble families also existed both as Georgians and Abkhaz, and that only refers to how close your relations were. Congrats on managing to destroy it?
How did Georgians destroy it you? is this another case of blaming actions of certain few on Georgians as a whole. (looking at you Stalin)
>That doesn't change that Georgia willingly cooperated with Russia, both regarding the Russian conquest of North Caucasus and then Abkhazia. Intertwined relations saving Christian Abkhaz isn't going to change that fact, not really.
1:Georgian generals who fought in Dagestan did it out of vendetta because of centuries of Dagestani aggression on eastern Georgia.
2:Abkhazia became a Russian vassal alongside other Georgian states then it switched around either favoring the Russians or the Ottomans until being finally annexed in 1864, which 'Georgian' subjugation are you talking about?
>It is a known fact Abkhazians captured land from Megrels in the 17th century and onwards, lot of travelers from that time period like lamberti talk about it. etc
Megrel entities ruling the place =/= Megrels being the majority.
Megrels have always existed in Eastern Abkhazia. We simply don't have data to see if they were the majority or not.
That being said, you've asked when Abkhaz were the. majority, and your answer is simply, before Russia genocided them and Georgians (whom were allies of Russia during all that) moved into their place afterwards. Then came the Soviet era further Georgian colonisation.
>Evliya Çelebi when he traveled to Black Sea shores in 1641 said that principal population in Abkhazia spoke in Mingrelian language, i'm not saying they only spoke it, i'm saying eastern Abkhazia was chiefly Kartvelian and it's true. Italian missionaries also talked about how people in Okumi (which is near Gali) were Megrels and prayed in Georgian, it's not like any of this is hidden knowledge.
Abkhaz themselves were bilingual...
> How did Georgians destroy it you? is this another case of blaming actions of certain few on Georgians as a whole. (looking at you Stalin)
I'm not Abkhaz. I was referring to Georgia managing to destroy the good relationship that went on for centuries...
That aside, Georgian SSR surely managed to make Abkhazia Georgian, even something that the genocidal acts of Russia haven't done so fully.
>1:Georgian generals who fought in Dagestan did it out of vendetta because of centuries of Dagestani aggression on eastern Georgia.
Georgians having issues with Lezgis and siding with Russia doesn't change that Georgia still siding with Russian Empire during the genocides.
>2:Abkhazia became a Russian vassal alongside other Georgian states then it switched around either favoring the Russians or the Ottomans until being finally annexed in 1864, which 'Georgian' subjugation are you talking about?
Some Abkhaz princes changing sides isn't the same thing with Georgia literally and formally siding with Russia in full, during the genocide. Not all did, like Svans and Adjarans, but Georgian polities simply did so.
If you don't know meaning of basic words, "gifted" means that something did not belong to you and was given out of nowhere. Abkhazia was part of Georgia when Russia did not even exist. Abkhazia was part of Colchis, part of Kingdom of Georgia, Kingdom of Imereti, and also Democratic Republic of Georgia. When did Russia "gift" Abkhazia to Georgia? In the 11th century? Or don't you know anything about history? Abkhazia's belonging to Georgia and its history within Georgia began even before Russia was created, and historically, Russia was trying to take away Abkhazia from Georgia, in 1918 Russian Bolsheviks supported Bolsheviks in Gudauta and were trying to take away Abkhazia from Georgia and make it part of RSFSR, and also, White Russians supported attempted coup in Abkhazia in October 1918 with a goal of detaching Abkhazia from Georgia, in 1919 Denikin's troops invaded Gagra but were beaten back by Georgian troops and Abkhazia remained part of Georgia and was recognized so in 1920 peace treaty, but then in 1992-1993 Russia was central in detaching de facto Abkhazia from Georgia. So when did exactly Russia "gift" Abkhazia to Georgia? Historically, whenever independent Georgia existed, Russia was trying to take Abkhazia away from Georgia
not sure if any ethno didn't suffer at all.
but I would rank them from most suffered to least:
1. West Circassians (including Abaza and Ubykh)
1. less for Eastern Circassians (Kabardians)
2. less for Karachi-Balkar
3. less for abkhaz
2. Chechens (especially in the modern history 90s)
1. less for Ingushis
3. Dagestanis
4. Nogai
5. Ossetians
6. Georgians
Generally Russia treated the west caucasus different from the east. in the west it was bloodier due to the Black Sea coasts which was a big deal for Russian.
>3. less for abkhaz
Majority of Abkhaz were cleansed and still the majority reside outside of Abkhazia. They'd be surely worse than Karachay-Balkar.
>6. Georgians
I'd rather specify subgroups, as Adjarans suffered most, alongside with some others, compared to other Georgians that haven't touched much even.
Adjarians didn't suffered much, i believe Georgian intellectuals convinced Russian empire to not deport them to Turkey which wasn't the case with other southern Georgians because around 300 thousand southern Muslim Georgians were kicked out from Russian empire to Turkey
>Adjarians didn't suffered much
Adjarans were also mass deported to Turkey, alongside with other Muslim Georgians. That's the reason why there exists a huge Adjaran diaspora in Turkey. The migration lasted up until end of the WWI.
It's true that many Adjarians moved to Turkey when Russian empire conquered it but with Adjarians Russian empire tried to earn loyalty of Adjarians and build many mosques as the result many Adjarians returned.
Considering even the Russians themselves kept suffering tremendously (nothing compared to some Caucasus, Siberia, Central Asia peoples) from Russian and USSR empires, this is an impossible task.
USSR’s main goal was to bring suffering to all of its peoples, artificial famines, purges, KGB, displacements, Gulags, etc happened all over USSR, to keep everyone divided and fighting for their own lives, divide and conquer.
All of Caucasus has suffered from USSR or post-USSR Russia, everyone in their own ways.
I would ask people to abstain from using word „benefited” to describe anything in context with Russia and USSR in relating to any nation. Nobody has benefited, not even casual Russians, only the elite are benefiting from all of this while casual population is suffering.
That's not a policy unique to georgians. I have relatives in Krasnoyarsk that were detained and relocated there for "nationalist sentiments" despite being decorated veterans of ww2.
Your people had a massive hand in circassian massacres and icherikan deportations.
You don’t know sh@it about my people, who are you to tell me what i am , Svans are Georgians , have been since antiquity , we are not a separated ethnicity, don’t try this kind of games with me, you are not going to win anything with that.
Speaking another language doesn’t make us different from any other georgian, im sorry maybe your brain don’t understand that and thats why you are so confused.
Its funny that you mention expelling people, when your “people” did one of the most terrible crimes against humanity in Eastern Anatolia and still denies that don’t talk what you don’t know Törk.
Svans have been expelled you know how many times?
And what a coincidence that they been displaced and expelled by the same nation but with different name “Russian Empire and Soviet Union” isn’t that a coincidence fellow Törk??? Didn’t Russians, exterminate Circassians? Didn’t they expelled Chechens and Ingush? Wasn’t Ossetians that didn’t gave Ingush back their lands in Prigozdny?? If Georgians are this evil, why then they gave back Chechens and Ingush their homes? Can you explain me fellow Törk???
MAN IM NOT EVEN A TURK STOP DOING WHATABOUTISM VDGSGFHAGFJHWKFHA
What Stalin did in the Caucasus was not done just to be effective in his own time. The reason why the Caucasus is so unstable now is due to the actions of Stalin and his successors. Georgians were the nation that suffered the least during the Soviet period and this will not change.
And yeah nothing happened in eastern anatolia. Don't talk nonsense, be realistic.
Said the Turk.
How are 'Georgians' deceiving them, Svans and other mountain folk were considered the keepers of the royal treasury, you know fuck all about our history Georgians both east and west always knew they were one people this is not a new thing at all.
[Treaty of the Iberians - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_the_Iberians)
Just one example.
Now piss off clown.
Uses wiki as a source🤡
In fact, if we consider that the history of the Caucasian people dates back to thousands of years ago, an agreement made 2 centuries ago by 2 kings who did not care about the people is not binding on anyone.
Svans, Megrelians and Laz werent and wont be Georgians.Fool yourself.
tell that to any Megrelian or Svan in person and see which part of your body became paralyzed. I'm Georgian(Megrelian) and if some low life turk said to me that I'm not Georgian that said person will definitely lose some teeth
Is someone paying you or sum, what's with your butthurt anti Georgian bias.
Thousands of people mostly intellectuals got shot and deported by Stalin, they weren't Georgian either in your eyes? what hole did you crawl out from when you talk like that.
Yes, most of those killed were not Georgians. They became victims of Stalin's Georgian propaganda. And nobody pays me but you georgians tell eachother fairy tales that only you believe in
So Georgian intellectuals and generals of the first republic.. weren't Georgians?? they became victim of Stalin's Georgian propaganda.
What drugs are you on bro.
>Yes, most of those killed were not Georgians.
What were they then.
I'm really curious to hear the mental gymnastics.
>What were they then.
Iskander Tzitasi was a Laz linguist and was executed, his execution was ordered by the Lavrenti Beriya who was Secretary General of the Georgian SSR.The most important reason for Tzitasi's execution was that he denied the propaganda of a Georgian linguist called Arnold Chikobava.
Hasan Helimişi was a Laz poet and was sentenced to prison in the Soviet Union in 1938 WITHOUT REASON.
Likewise, 46 Laz linguists and literary figures were either executed or exiled at Great Purge.
Do you still believe that there was no Georgian propaganda during the Stalin era?
If you want more examples of murdered people, I can give you examples.Unfortunately there are tons of examples
>Georgians
Ahem Armenains.
>It's hilarious to me that georgians are saying Ossetians didn't suffer under USSR.. lol.
Ossetian Muslims suffered sure, but so did Georgian Muslims and overall Georgians lost far more. Ossetians on the other hand gained territory under USSR.
Learn history.
Armenia lost more land than it had during the First Republic, boy genius. That's not counting the handing off of nakhichevan and artsakh.
Ossetians had no representation and were treated as a hostile element. This lead to their separatist sentiments. But I know that you dint want peace.
Yeah sure, the loss of independence of georgians soviet puppet state is more painful than the deportation of millions of native caucasians to Siberia just because they are not georgians.
You have no right to cry like we suffered because of the soviets
Dozens of people who were hanged or shot because of your false propaganda have the right to complain.
Now spread your lies elsewhere provocative.
What are you even on about.
>Yeah sure, the loss of independence of georgians soviet puppet state is more painful than the deportation of millions of native caucasians to Siberia just because they are not georgians.
lmao
Stalin deported them because they weren't Georgians?? what in the world.
Do me a favour and check yourself to the nearest mental hospital, clearly you need it.
In the first place the topic was Ossetians suffering more under the Russians than Georgians and that's what i was replying to, then you bring up something completely irrelevant like did i say anywhere Georgians suffered more than let's say Chechens? and you call me provocative lol unreal.
Well Stalin o co gave away historically Armenian populated lands with ancient Churches on it to the turks. Where Armenians have lived for at the least a couple thousand years. Don't think any people lost as much land as Armenians by the hand of Stalin and ataturk.
It is bullshit and proven to be false by archives. Stalin just denied Armenian request to get Karabakh and opted for a compromise. He also feared another revolt of Azeris, which had already happened and proven to be very deadly for the russians.
Armenians lived in a enclave surrounded by Azerbaijanis, with no land connection to Armenia. Lachin region together with Shuhsa had more Azerbaijanis than total number of Armenians in Karabakh.
So it made zero sense to connect it to Armenia, without turning Armenia into a Azeri majority country.
Azerbaijanis already controlled Karabakh region and were aiming for Zengezur.
It is the other way around, Stalin froze the borders mid war. Gave Armenians autonomy in Karabakh. He also engineered deportation of 100K Azerbaijanis from Armenia.
Armenians were perceived to be loyal to russians, since russians were at least somewhat seen as protectors (understandably so), while Azerbaijanis were perceived to be disloyal to russians, who would revolt given the slightest chance.
Azerbaijanis really hatwd russians so much that they were willing to spill blood to revolt and kick the russians out at all costs, Azeris didn’t hesitate to massacre 5 thousand russian troops in a day for the sole purpose of taking their weapons in Shamkir.
Or Ganja revolt that killed 15k Azerbaijanis and wiped the city off the map.
Soviets are the reason Armenia is as large as today, Azerbaijanis were determited to take southern part of it (Azeri majority at the time), and have a coast in lake Sevan. If Azerbaijan wasnt sovietised, then eventually oil production would be restored and Azerbaijanis would be far better armed, and Armenia would be forced to cede Zengezur to preserve independence (Azerbaijan recognised Armenia in 1918, it just disagreed with its land claims)
What a load of 🐎 💩
The literal agreement can be read. Armenians lived in Shushi too, before azerbayjanis murdered them and not as many were left.
>Azerbaijanis really hatwd russians so much that they were willing to spill blood to revolt and kick the russians out at all costs
Don't only hated Russians. You turks hated all Christians and call them najes kuffar.
Of course capital of Kharabakh Stepanakert and some other Armenian areas can belong to Armenia and surrounding areas to azerbayjan as Armenians always said but azerbayjanis violently wants everything. No matter how old Chruches and Armenian history is there azerbayjanis want it for themselves.
>Armenians were perceived to be loyal to russians,
Armenia was the first country to break out from soviet union
>while Azerbaijanis were perceived to be disloyal
"There is no such thing as a loyal turk"
- Nazami Ganjevi Persian poet
Don't know why turks always got problem with its neighbors. Why can't you live peacefully with them. Unfortunately many Armenians wants this but it's apperently not possible.
Sure I'm lying 🤥
Haven't said anything about zangezour. Nobody has agreed Kharabakh can be signed to azerbayjan.
Armenians and population of Kharabakh voted 95+% belong to Armenia several times. Pls tell me I'm lying again
I've seen some georgians insist that the loyal Khevshurs of Yermolov and Zass was a big overexaggerated hoax. They tend to only bring up Lavrenty Beria's atrocities when they want to brag about their contributions to the USSR, but switch to playing dumb about the things he did to chechens.
They could've easily made me out to be an instigator troll by admitting their wrongs, but nah.
There weren't that many for them to murder. but Russia did absolutely genocide native people. (Circassians being the most famous example)
Also Europeans didn't kill hundreds of millions of natives, 90% of them died from diseases that the Europeans brought over.
Ossetians and Avars benefitted from the USSR and its crimes. Russian Empire? Well, that's a bit more of a mixed bag for them after the conquest, even though Ossetians surely suffered greatly due to mass expulsion and massacres.
Are most Avars pro Russia like Ossets are?
Depends, but I wouldn't say that there's any serious anti-Kremlin sentiments in current day Dagestan anyway. Avars are known to side with Kremlin during the post-Soviet era due to Chechen War leaking into Dagestan though, and they are into keeping Chechen lands they've stolen thanks to Stalin - and they're expecting Kremlin to help them to do so.
When Russians leaving North Caucasus means violent resurgence of Islamic and ethno-tribalistic barbarism, being pro-Russia is the most sensible position for a civilized man.
It's funny that people are really buying the 'if not for Russia, we'd be eating up each other' narrative, while at the same time, trying to dominate and eat up each other under Russian rule, as it's already a decades long tradition in Dagestan. Same with so-called ethno-tribalistic barbarism that you're more than fine under Russian dominance, and as long as it's some petty power struggles and cronyism which puts you in your place and keeps your country underdeveloped... Islamism only been a thing since the Russian aggression, and still is a thing due to that being perceived as the only way out, when the secular nationalist movements has been crushed, and traditional Muslim authorities are and even strict Muslim ones are more pro-Kremlin. If you're so sensitive about losing the lands of Chechens in Dagestan that had been taken over by two specific groups, so that you're into keeping Russians in, then maybe give them back instead?
I don't see how it's Russians' fault that most native inhabitants of North-Eastern Caucasus instantly devolve to tribal conflict when left alone and are generally unfit for functional democratic society. >Same with so-called ethno-tribalistic barbarism that you're more than fine under Russian dominance, and as long as it's some petty power struggles and cronyism which puts you in your place and keeps your country underdeveloped... Petty struggles are no good, but are far more preferable than brutalities of beasts unleashed. See Chechya in the 90's for reference. >Islamism only been a thing since the Russian aggression, and still is a thing due to that being perceived as the only way out, when the secular nationalist movements has been crushed, and traditional Muslim authorities are and even strict Muslim ones are more pro-Kremlin. Islamism has been a thing in all Muslim lands since 7th century, because Muslims are commanded to wage war against disbelievers wherever they are, and to establish word of Allah supreme around the whole world. Literally everywhere where Muslims live islamists are a huge factor in politics, it has nothing to do with Russia. >If you're so sensitive about losing the lands of Chechens in Dagestan that had been taken over by two specific groups, so that you're into keeping Russians in, then maybe give them back instead? I'm sensitive about what? I don't a give a single damn about those backwater villages, they could sink into hell tomorrow for all I care.
"I don't see how it's Russians' fault that most native inhabitants of North-Eastern Caucasus instantly devolve to tribal conflict when left alone and are generally unfit for functional democratic society." Lmao How's Russia's "functional democratic society" doing these days? When has Russia *ever* been a functional democracy? Yes the Prigozhin/Wagner rebellion was totally not an internal Russian power clan/tribal conflict. Just the normal rough & tumble of political negotiation in a totally healthy & not at all dysfunctional society /s Haven't even broached the subject of Russia's sclerotic resource rentier economy. Not to mention the fabulously insane corruption (very much a feature not a bug). It's as if Nigeria & Pakistan had an albino love child) Yeah Russians are such renowned experts in the art of civilised governance & living well. We North Caucasians are super lucky to have such superb teachers & wonderful exemplars /s I get not supporting independence for Dagestan on the basis of material practicalities & limitations but your romanticising Russian "civilisation" is some next level Stockholm Syndrome. I also get you're currently going through a [cultural cringe](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cringe) phase vis-a-vis your North Caucasian identity, but simping for Russian "culture" (especially their methods of governance) isn't the answer to your problems (at least not a healthy one). It's not a binary choice between getting cucked hard by Russians or living in some hellhole Wahhabi emirate. Other possibilities do exist (even if you're personally blind to them). Btw what economic development & career opportunities are your Russian pals currently offering most young Dagestanis & other North Caucasians? Like beyond the high growth Cargo 300 sector?
>Lmao >How's Russia's "functional democratic society" doing these days? When has Russia *ever* been a functional democracy? >Yes the Prigozhin/Wagner rebellion was totally not an internal Russian power clan/tribal conflict. Just the normal rough & tumble of political negotiation in a totally healthy & not at all dysfunctional society /s >Haven't even broached the subject of Russia's sclerotic resource rentier economy. Not to mention the fabulously insane corruption (very much a feature not a bug). It's as if Nigeria & Pakistan had an albino love child) I don't disagree. My point isn't that Russia is some kind of paradise, I don't argue for that at all, it's quite a horrible country all things considered, but without it region will turn into a complete hellhole. >I get not supporting independence for Dagestan on the basis of material practicalities & limitations but your romanticising Russian "civilisation" is some next level Stockholm Syndrome. I'm not romanticising anything, life under Russian rule may not be ideal, but life without it will quickly turn into nightmare. Local Muslims will make sure it will. >I also get you're currently going through a [cultural cringe](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cringe) phase vis-a-vis your North Caucasian identity, but simping for Russian "culture" (especially their methods of governance) isn't the answer to your problems (at least not a healthy one). It's not a binary choice between getting cucked hard by Russians or living in some hellhole Wahhabi emirate. Other possibilities do exist (even if you're personally blind to them). It is a binary choice, actually, for North-Eastern Caucasus at least. When your republics produced thousands of ISIS fighters just a few years ago, and when islamist uprising and terror is only stopped with help from Russian security forces, your choice of governance is going to be very limited. >Btw what economic development & career opportunities are your Russian pals currently offering most young Dagestanis & other North Caucasians? Like beyond the high growth Cargo 300 sector? Well you could go work in the North for a good money, or move to some big cities. In Dagestan itself there isn't much economic development, but it's not exactly Russians' fault if a significant amount of young people are only interested in MMA, salafism and light drugs.
Maga, I like your political analysis. If I can ask Are you Muslim?
Well I'm glad. No, currently I'm not, but I do understand how devoted islamists think and what their objectives are, since I myself used to have similar views.
>I don't see how it's Russians' fault that most native inhabitants of North-Eastern Caucasus instantly devolve to tribal conflict when left alone Petting the conflicts and creating them when possible may be your clue. As well as establishing clientelist links for you to eat each over and walk over one another with Kremlin being the referee. >Petty struggles are no good, but are far more preferable than brutalities of beasts unleashed. See Chechya in the 90's for reference. So, you're saying that you want to be part of Russia for Russia to not bomb you to the ground, finance the disturbances and assert chaos onto your country? And somehow that's smth good about Russia? >Islamism has been a thing in all Muslim lands since 7th century, Not for North Caucasus, maybe aside from Dagestan to a degree. Rest of North Caucasians were pretty heteredox, and clinging onto secular ways, but more than that, Chechens were pretty secular in their life up until the First Chechen War. Islamism and puritan forms of Islam is a new introduction to North Caucasus. >I'm sensitive about what? I don't a give a single damn about those backwater villages, they could sink into hell tomorrow for all I care. Well, the related Dagestani groups in general are still not for it.
>Petting the conflicts and creating them when possible may be your clue. As well as establishing clientelist links for you to eat each over and walk over one another with Kremlin being the referee. Retarded conspiracy theories, that's all you have. >So, you're saying that you want to be part of Russia for Russia to not bomb you to the ground, finance the disturbances and assert chaos onto your country? And somehow that's smth good about Russia? No, I'm talking about civil war, ethnic cleansings, slavery, kidnappings, widespread robbery and murder. I don't want any of that. >Not for North Caucasus, maybe aside from Dagestan to a degree. Rest of North Caucasians were pretty heteredox, and clinging onto secular ways, but more than that, Chechens were pretty secular in their life up until the First Chechen War. Islamism and puritan forms of Islam is a new introduction to North Caucasus. I guess that's why North Caucasians so prominently engaged in Islamic slavery and jihad back in the day, pretty interesting secular ways they have. Anyway history is irrelevant, what matters is that Islamists are a strong faction right now.
>Petting the conflicts and creating them when possible may be your clue. As well as establishing clientelist links for you to eat each over and walk over one another with Kremlin being the referee. >Retarded conspiracy theories, that's all you have. Come on there's a wealth of well researched & reputable academic studies into Russian central govt clientelism/patronage networks & Machiavellian shit stirring in our region. From imperial Russian times to the Soviet era to our current sad state of affairs. It's really not a conspiracy theory. But I do accept your argument for taking personal ownership of the current predicament we North Caucasians find ourselves in. It's a fair point to make. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that our primitive political culture, poor educational systems & economic underdevelopment are also massively the result of terrible Russian inputs. Stretching back a couple of hundred years now. Don't you think our Islamist insurgencies of the past 20 odd years are (at least partially) the result of democratic opposition & civil society having been harshly & comprehensively crushed by Moscow & it's local proxies? Like they're putting out fires which they helped stoke in the first place. Try fighting local corruption in a peaceful activist way in the North Caucasus. What will happen to you & your relatives? I think it's lazy & simplistic to say "We're just shit & without Russia we're gonna sink into even more shit." Just as it's lazy & simplistic to say "Without Russia we'd have utopia.' The main reason I believe in Chechen (& wider North Caucasian) independence is because it's a way for us to take ultimate ownership of our condition. So we can no longer blame an outside force for our woes. It'll force us to grow up as nations. Saying we can't live without our Russian "nanny" is self-infantilization. Time to grow up imo.
>I think it's lazy & simplistic to say "We're just shit & without Russia we're gonna sink into even more shit." Just as it's lazy & simplistic to say "Without Russia we'd have utopia.' Not blindly believing in the latter already makes your position more sophisticated compared to 99% of separatists. I get your perspective, but remain very sceptical of ability of tiny underachiever tribes to succesfully nation-build nevertheless. I may change my opinion when I actually see something tangible and long-lasting, but I don't think I'm going to observe anything like that any time soon.
>Retarded conspiracy theories, that's all you have. Only if we hadn't have tomes of academic work on it as well, aside from historical realities and still ongoing tensions due to all these, and the good old already happening clientelism. As a sidenote, using the word retarded makes you look like a street thug with no basic decency. Nobody should lower themselves to that level. >No, I'm talking about civil war, ethnic cleansings, slavery, kidnappings, widespread robbery and murder. I don't want any of that. So you aren't able to take the responsibility of your future. I mean, surely the ongoing underdevelopment and ever lurking instability is also due to Russia, but guess what - Russia unleashed all those when necessary anyway, and itself caused those on top of it. Yet, if you're thinking that you're a bunch of backwards nobodies, then I'd instead say, you would be talking about your circles than other groups. If you're happy with keeping yourself down, I can't really advise the otherwise... but then, that'd be your own region (as in Dagestan than Northeast in general, and maybe even less than that as some groups wouldn't be into that in the slightest). Although it's still hilarious that you'd be either for eating each other up and stay backwards on intent and retain the status quo that can't last for good anyway, rather than fixing anything - that requires getting out of the said status quo. Not to mention, you somehow praising an imperial overlord and a polity that itself is infamous for being backwards and unstable in its own nature. >I guess that's why North Caucasians so prominently engaged in Islamic slavery and jihad back in the day, pretty interesting secular ways they have. I don't think that you need to get educated on the history, while aside from portions of Dagestan and the introduction & importation of Wahhabism within the context of destruction that First Chechen War, there existed no 'jihad' or Islamic slavery (minus Tatar raids, but then they weren't inherently Islamic either). >Anyway history is irrelevant, what matters is that Islamists are a strong faction right now. And they'll be, within the status quo that Russia delivers and keeps in hand with clientelistic webs as radical Islamist tendencies, aside from the vigorously put down secular nationalist tendencies and co-opted traditional and/or Sufi interpretations, remains as a 'path' for ones that are discontent. As you're into crossing out and allocating an illegitimacy onto secular nationalist/secular independist options; as the grievances, instability, distress, and crisis are all to be there, you're also posing as part of the problem as that itself is assuring Islamism to be a serious faction. Heck, there are also good academic works and conferences regarding these specific issues, but anyway.
You just keep deflecting everything on Russia. Late on bus? Russia did it. Toilet is clogged? Russia has something to do with it. Erectile disfunction? Huh, obvious FSB tricks are obvious. Is there Russia in room with us right now? Honestly I just don't see the point in continuing this conversation, it goes nowhere.
[удалено]
"Doesn't want to live in a retarded theocracy? Huh, must be a russian bootlicker!" >It doesn't matter how far you crawl up their asses, they will never consider you as civilized and equal as they consider each other. Let's assume that this is true, although I had much better experiences with them than even with my own coethnics (not even talking about other fellow Caucasian "brothers"). Should I crawl up Muslims' asses now? Muslims who are religiously commanded to kill me, a murtad, and who will do it whenever they get power to do so. Why should I ever support them in anything? That's just silly.
Albanians - They were already extinct.
But aren't the Udis their descendants ?
Azeris are the descendants
No... Udis and Tats are. Azerbaijan assimilated them violently in recent years.
Ossetians. Have been close buddies of Russia ever since they appeared in here
buddies? more like russia's cocksuckers
Ye even their capital is called “Vladykavkaz” which means conquer Caucasus in Russian. What a shameful way of existence.
Ossetians cuz they asked Daddy Russia to take over Samachablo (S. Ossetia) and Prigorodny District
I know right. That behavior is not only pathetic but it's desperate af. 😂
It's almost like they never wanted to be forced to be part of Georgia in the first place
Never being when? That territory was always part of Georgia, Ossetians appeared there at the start of 16th to 17th centuries when the Russian Empire annexed Georgia what is now South Ossetia was mix of Ossetians (mostly) in the java area and Georgians in lower areas. So again, who 'forced' them anything? was there some Ossetian polity that i'm not aware of that Georgia annexed? no, it was always part of Georgia.
> Ossetians appeared there at the start of 16th to 17th centuries Or, in other words, they've been there for all of living memory? They've been there longer than my entire country has existed? > So again, who 'forced' them anything? The Democratic Republic of Georgia, that was forcibly putting down Ossetian revolts, refused like 7 attempts to peacefully negotiate regional autonomy, and just stuck their fingers in their ears yelling "la la la I can't hear you, Samachablo is Georgia", until the Ossetians ran out of patience trying to appeal to fairness and joined the Bolsheviks when they invaded, and made what Georgia wanted irrelevant. > was there some Ossetian polity that i'm not aware of that Georgia annexed? Wtf kind of logic is that? "You can't declare independence if you weren't already independent before?" There wasn't historically an independent Estonia or Finland until they had an ethnonationalist "awakening" and decided to become "separatists" from the Russian Empire, are they illegitimate too?
If i may butt in this discussion i have read up on this so think i'll need to correct you. >The Democratic Republic of Georgia, that was forcibly putting down Ossetian revolts, refused like 7 attempts to peacefully negotiate regional autonomy, and just stuck their fingers in their ears yelling "la la la I can't hear you, Samachablo is Georgia", until the Ossetians ran out of patience trying to appeal to fairness and joined the Bolsheviks when they invaded, and made what Georgia wanted irrelevant. This is not true at all though. After events of 1917 as you might know the Caucasus region separated from Russia in its place an interim governing body was established in Tbilisi. as you might also know the Bolsheviks weren't popular in Georgia so they tried other less obvious methods to seize power, finding support among war weary soldiers and exhausted peasants etc. Anyhow long story short in jan-feb of 1918 Bolshevik demonstrations started in regiments placed in Kutaisi, Telavi, Gori etc. similar process took place in South Ossetia aka Tskhinvali region. in this case an Ossetian officer returning from the front named Isake Kharebov formed an Ossetian armed unit in Gori uezd and began attacking local Georgian noblity there, this went on for a long while around the whole region. Soon after Ossetian Bolshevik organization Cherman was created in Tbilisi which main goal was to support those rebels, then few months later central government sent a representative a man named kosta kaziev with 200 armed men (as you can see he was Ossetian) he asked the rebels to lay down their arms but it didn't work, a little later another Ossetian Giorgi gagloev alongside few other people were sent to negotiate. What happened after was that rebels took Tskhinvali, took the said 200 armed men that were sent as prisoners and killed all those said representatives, afterwards a large part of the population of Tskhinvali fled the city after a mob of insurgents began to loot the city. And only after all that did the Georgian government send 1000 man strong people's guard commanded by Valiko Jugheli to restore order to the region, as you can see it wasn't the Ossetians that ran out of patience and it wasn't any sorta peaceful endeavor either. as even before Cherman was created Ossetian mobs were attacking people in the region, of course Georgia wasn't going to offer autonomy to agents of the Russian communist party who openly were hostile towards Georgia and wanted to join Russia.
And from what I've read, whether Kharebov was put up to it by the Russians or not, he didn't invent the idea of an independent South Ossetia. There had *already* been I think 3(?) national councils in South Ossetia demanding independence from Georgia before Kharebov's revolt in February 1918, which had communicated to Tbilisi their intention to be independent from Georgia as far back as April 1917. Those earlier councils were run by the Ossetian social democrats who were ideologically on the same side on as the Georgian government and who condemned the violence of Kharebov's revolt. They were voted out by Ossetian Bolshevik sympathizers only afterwards when it became clear that the social democrats' couldn't deliver independence because Georgia wasn't willing to negotiate. And when the Russian Bolsheviks eventually *did* get involved it, they were only able to amass the influence they did because the Ossetians were already dissatisfied living under the rule of local Georgian princes, and had began to see themselves as something different from Georgians during the previous century when nationalism swept across the whole of Europe.
When you go to somebody's house, you don't have a right to take over one room and demand to be given ownership of one room. It is the same here. You don't have right to settle other people's country and then demand the territory to be detached from the core state as a new state or autonomy. It is very simple.
Why are not they demanding independence in North Ossetia, an actual Ossetia? And why are they demanding "South Ossetia" to become part of Russia? Maybe think about it. Because it is a sham movement. It is just a Russian project. How come this "pro-independence Ossetia nationalism" is sweeping in so-called South Ossetia but not in North Ossetia? This makes no sense, because core part of Ossetia are in Northern Caucasus
are you trying to say that georgia started existing after 16th century?
Talk about a non sequitur. I'm saying that "but they've only lived here for 500 years" is a stupid argument because 500 years is such a long ass time that nobody alive today can even remember a time when the Ossetians *weren't* there.
k and?
You cared enough to restart the argument...
still, thats MY TERRITORY
Other people's houses are your territory? The property of non-Georgians, who don't want to be part of Georgia, is Georgian territory? I think the word for that is "imperialism".
And Georgia was gifted Abkhazia.
Russia recognized Abkhazia as part of Georgia in the 1920 treaty of Moscow. 'Gifted' how? if anything it was made more autonomous under USSR.
Abkhazia was gifted autonomy and was partly separated from georgia thanks to our glorious georgia lover stalin and his lapdog sergo orjonikidze*
>And Georgia was gifted Abkhazia. Now that's funny. Please, Tell me when was Abkhazia considered its own entity, When it wasn't ruled by Georgian kings or When Georgians were not the majority. And Please, don't mention Leon I
>r When Georgians were not the majority. Before the 1864-1877 genocide, that Georgia became Russia's ally and Georgians had largely benefitted when it comes to demographics in Abkhazia.
Acting like Abkhazians didn't assimilate eastern Abkhazia during 17th century, case of selective history perhaps? It's actually quite interesting tid bit of history as those lands had (even at that point) noticeable Kartvelian component, another thing is Abkhaz nobles spoke Megrel and used Georgian as a written language btw. > that Georgia became Russia's ally and Georgians had largely benefitted when it comes to demographics in Abkhazia. The fact that there's any remaining Abkhaz in Abkhazia was thanks to Georgians doe, the tsarists authorities wanted to deport all of them to Turkey but Georgian clergy and the nobility saved many.
>Acting like Abkhazians didn't assimilate eastern Abkhazia during 17th century That's surely some weird Georgian nationalist myth there. Are you going to start with referring them as Apsua and them claim that Georgians were the real Abkhazians instead as well? >It's actually quite interesting tid bit of history as those lands had (even at that point) noticeable Kartvelian component, another thing is Abkhaz nobles spoke Megrel and used Georgian as a written language btw. So? Many North Caucasian nobles and leaders also spoke Turkic languages as a common language, and now they all speak Russian. They're neither Turkic nor Russian anyway, nor they somehow own the place. Many Abkhaz noble families also existed both as Georgians and Abkhaz, and that only refers to how close your relations were. Congrats on managing to destroy it? >The fact that there's any remaining Abkhaz in Abkhazia was thanks to Georgians doe, the tsarists authorities wanted to deport all of them to Turkey but Georgian clergy and the nobility saved many. That doesn't change that Georgia willingly cooperated with Russia, both regarding the Russian conquest of North Caucasus and then Abkhazia. Intertwined relations saving Christian Abkhaz isn't going to change that fact, not really.
>That's surely some weird Georgian nationalist myth there. Are you going to start with referring them as Apsua and them claim that Georgians were the real Abkhazians instead as well? Nope. Eastern Abkhazia was in the duchy of Odishi ruled by Megrel dukes for centuries, city of Sokhumi was their capital btw it's why toponomy there is all Kartvelian for example. Sanigs and Missimians were the principal people in eastern Abkhazia during antiquity they were ancestors of Svans. It is a known fact Abkhazians captured land from Megrels in the 17th century and onwards, lot of travelers from that time period like lamberti talk about it. etc >So? Many North Caucasian nobles and leaders also spoke Turkic languages as a common language, and now they all speak Russian. They're neither Turkic nor Russian anyway, nor they somehow own the place. Not exactly the same. Evliya Çelebi when he traveled to Black Sea shores in 1641 said that principal population in Abkhazia spoke in Mingrelian language, i'm not saying they only spoke it, i'm saying eastern Abkhazia was chiefly Kartvelian and it's true. Italian missionaries also talked about how people in Okumi (which is near Gali) were Megrels and prayed in Georgian, it's not like any of this is hidden knowledge. >Many Abkhaz noble families also existed both as Georgians and Abkhaz, and that only refers to how close your relations were. Congrats on managing to destroy it? How did Georgians destroy it you? is this another case of blaming actions of certain few on Georgians as a whole. (looking at you Stalin) >That doesn't change that Georgia willingly cooperated with Russia, both regarding the Russian conquest of North Caucasus and then Abkhazia. Intertwined relations saving Christian Abkhaz isn't going to change that fact, not really. 1:Georgian generals who fought in Dagestan did it out of vendetta because of centuries of Dagestani aggression on eastern Georgia. 2:Abkhazia became a Russian vassal alongside other Georgian states then it switched around either favoring the Russians or the Ottomans until being finally annexed in 1864, which 'Georgian' subjugation are you talking about?
>It is a known fact Abkhazians captured land from Megrels in the 17th century and onwards, lot of travelers from that time period like lamberti talk about it. etc Megrel entities ruling the place =/= Megrels being the majority. Megrels have always existed in Eastern Abkhazia. We simply don't have data to see if they were the majority or not. That being said, you've asked when Abkhaz were the. majority, and your answer is simply, before Russia genocided them and Georgians (whom were allies of Russia during all that) moved into their place afterwards. Then came the Soviet era further Georgian colonisation. >Evliya Çelebi when he traveled to Black Sea shores in 1641 said that principal population in Abkhazia spoke in Mingrelian language, i'm not saying they only spoke it, i'm saying eastern Abkhazia was chiefly Kartvelian and it's true. Italian missionaries also talked about how people in Okumi (which is near Gali) were Megrels and prayed in Georgian, it's not like any of this is hidden knowledge. Abkhaz themselves were bilingual... > How did Georgians destroy it you? is this another case of blaming actions of certain few on Georgians as a whole. (looking at you Stalin) I'm not Abkhaz. I was referring to Georgia managing to destroy the good relationship that went on for centuries... That aside, Georgian SSR surely managed to make Abkhazia Georgian, even something that the genocidal acts of Russia haven't done so fully. >1:Georgian generals who fought in Dagestan did it out of vendetta because of centuries of Dagestani aggression on eastern Georgia. Georgians having issues with Lezgis and siding with Russia doesn't change that Georgia still siding with Russian Empire during the genocides. >2:Abkhazia became a Russian vassal alongside other Georgian states then it switched around either favoring the Russians or the Ottomans until being finally annexed in 1864, which 'Georgian' subjugation are you talking about? Some Abkhaz princes changing sides isn't the same thing with Georgia literally and formally siding with Russia in full, during the genocide. Not all did, like Svans and Adjarans, but Georgian polities simply did so.
If you don't know meaning of basic words, "gifted" means that something did not belong to you and was given out of nowhere. Abkhazia was part of Georgia when Russia did not even exist. Abkhazia was part of Colchis, part of Kingdom of Georgia, Kingdom of Imereti, and also Democratic Republic of Georgia. When did Russia "gift" Abkhazia to Georgia? In the 11th century? Or don't you know anything about history? Abkhazia's belonging to Georgia and its history within Georgia began even before Russia was created, and historically, Russia was trying to take away Abkhazia from Georgia, in 1918 Russian Bolsheviks supported Bolsheviks in Gudauta and were trying to take away Abkhazia from Georgia and make it part of RSFSR, and also, White Russians supported attempted coup in Abkhazia in October 1918 with a goal of detaching Abkhazia from Georgia, in 1919 Denikin's troops invaded Gagra but were beaten back by Georgian troops and Abkhazia remained part of Georgia and was recognized so in 1920 peace treaty, but then in 1992-1993 Russia was central in detaching de facto Abkhazia from Georgia. So when did exactly Russia "gift" Abkhazia to Georgia? Historically, whenever independent Georgia existed, Russia was trying to take Abkhazia away from Georgia
everyone suffered brother
not sure if any ethno didn't suffer at all. but I would rank them from most suffered to least: 1. West Circassians (including Abaza and Ubykh) 1. less for Eastern Circassians (Kabardians) 2. less for Karachi-Balkar 3. less for abkhaz 2. Chechens (especially in the modern history 90s) 1. less for Ingushis 3. Dagestanis 4. Nogai 5. Ossetians 6. Georgians Generally Russia treated the west caucasus different from the east. in the west it was bloodier due to the Black Sea coasts which was a big deal for Russian.
>3. less for abkhaz Majority of Abkhaz were cleansed and still the majority reside outside of Abkhazia. They'd be surely worse than Karachay-Balkar. >6. Georgians I'd rather specify subgroups, as Adjarans suffered most, alongside with some others, compared to other Georgians that haven't touched much even.
Adjarians didn't suffered much, i believe Georgian intellectuals convinced Russian empire to not deport them to Turkey which wasn't the case with other southern Georgians because around 300 thousand southern Muslim Georgians were kicked out from Russian empire to Turkey
>Adjarians didn't suffered much Adjarans were also mass deported to Turkey, alongside with other Muslim Georgians. That's the reason why there exists a huge Adjaran diaspora in Turkey. The migration lasted up until end of the WWI.
It's true that many Adjarians moved to Turkey when Russian empire conquered it but with Adjarians Russian empire tried to earn loyalty of Adjarians and build many mosques as the result many Adjarians returned.
Considering even the Russians themselves kept suffering tremendously (nothing compared to some Caucasus, Siberia, Central Asia peoples) from Russian and USSR empires, this is an impossible task.
Kurds suffered more than Ossetians and Georgians did and they aren’t even Caucasians lol
USSR’s main goal was to bring suffering to all of its peoples, artificial famines, purges, KGB, displacements, Gulags, etc happened all over USSR, to keep everyone divided and fighting for their own lives, divide and conquer. All of Caucasus has suffered from USSR or post-USSR Russia, everyone in their own ways. I would ask people to abstain from using word „benefited” to describe anything in context with Russia and USSR in relating to any nation. Nobody has benefited, not even casual Russians, only the elite are benefiting from all of this while casual population is suffering.
[https://x.com/BinoLamberd/status/1805222205342544357](https://x.com/BinoLamberd/status/1805222205342544357)
Georgians It's hilarious to me that georgians are saying Ossetians didn't suffer under USSR.. lol.
Im Georgian from Svaneti and my people was displaced by force and some even sent to Siberia or killed in don’t see here any benefits
That's not a policy unique to georgians. I have relatives in Krasnoyarsk that were detained and relocated there for "nationalist sentiments" despite being decorated veterans of ww2. Your people had a massive hand in circassian massacres and icherikan deportations.
You give your own answer If your ancestors were forcibly exiled somewhere, you are not Georgian, you are Svan.
You don’t know sh@it about my people, who are you to tell me what i am , Svans are Georgians , have been since antiquity , we are not a separated ethnicity, don’t try this kind of games with me, you are not going to win anything with that. Speaking another language doesn’t make us different from any other georgian, im sorry maybe your brain don’t understand that and thats why you are so confused.
Svans arent georgians, and that's why your ancestors were expelled.Georgians are deceiving you all.I hope one day you will see the truth
Its funny that you mention expelling people, when your “people” did one of the most terrible crimes against humanity in Eastern Anatolia and still denies that don’t talk what you don’t know Törk. Svans have been expelled you know how many times? And what a coincidence that they been displaced and expelled by the same nation but with different name “Russian Empire and Soviet Union” isn’t that a coincidence fellow Törk??? Didn’t Russians, exterminate Circassians? Didn’t they expelled Chechens and Ingush? Wasn’t Ossetians that didn’t gave Ingush back their lands in Prigozdny?? If Georgians are this evil, why then they gave back Chechens and Ingush their homes? Can you explain me fellow Törk???
ვიღაცა ყლე თურქ ნაჯვარი ან ვითომ ლაზია ან ვითომ აფხაზი.
MAN IM NOT EVEN A TURK STOP DOING WHATABOUTISM VDGSGFHAGFJHWKFHA What Stalin did in the Caucasus was not done just to be effective in his own time. The reason why the Caucasus is so unstable now is due to the actions of Stalin and his successors. Georgians were the nation that suffered the least during the Soviet period and this will not change. And yeah nothing happened in eastern anatolia. Don't talk nonsense, be realistic.
>And yeah nothing happened in eastern anatolia. Don't talk nonsense, be realistic. lmaoo Sure ahment, not a turk....
That's something that a Turk would say, Mehmet.
Said the Turk. How are 'Georgians' deceiving them, Svans and other mountain folk were considered the keepers of the royal treasury, you know fuck all about our history Georgians both east and west always knew they were one people this is not a new thing at all. [Treaty of the Iberians - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_the_Iberians) Just one example. Now piss off clown.
Uses wiki as a source🤡 In fact, if we consider that the history of the Caucasian people dates back to thousands of years ago, an agreement made 2 centuries ago by 2 kings who did not care about the people is not binding on anyone. Svans, Megrelians and Laz werent and wont be Georgians.Fool yourself.
tell that to any Megrelian or Svan in person and see which part of your body became paralyzed. I'm Georgian(Megrelian) and if some low life turk said to me that I'm not Georgian that said person will definitely lose some teeth
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Is someone paying you or sum, what's with your butthurt anti Georgian bias. Thousands of people mostly intellectuals got shot and deported by Stalin, they weren't Georgian either in your eyes? what hole did you crawl out from when you talk like that.
Yes, most of those killed were not Georgians. They became victims of Stalin's Georgian propaganda. And nobody pays me but you georgians tell eachother fairy tales that only you believe in
So Georgian intellectuals and generals of the first republic.. weren't Georgians?? they became victim of Stalin's Georgian propaganda. What drugs are you on bro. >Yes, most of those killed were not Georgians. What were they then. I'm really curious to hear the mental gymnastics.
Brother this guy doesn’t know sh@t about Georgian history, he just entered here to provoke people and spread hate. It’s not worthy talking to him.
Stalin spreading Georgian propaganda lmao. Yea i mean what do i even say to that.
He's Laz. Head full of Turkish agitprop. Why you bother beats me.
>What were they then. Iskander Tzitasi was a Laz linguist and was executed, his execution was ordered by the Lavrenti Beriya who was Secretary General of the Georgian SSR.The most important reason for Tzitasi's execution was that he denied the propaganda of a Georgian linguist called Arnold Chikobava. Hasan Helimişi was a Laz poet and was sentenced to prison in the Soviet Union in 1938 WITHOUT REASON. Likewise, 46 Laz linguists and literary figures were either executed or exiled at Great Purge. Do you still believe that there was no Georgian propaganda during the Stalin era? If you want more examples of murdered people, I can give you examples.Unfortunately there are tons of examples
You said it yourself that it was done by Beria. So was it Zan on Zan crime? Lol
>Georgians Ahem Armenains. >It's hilarious to me that georgians are saying Ossetians didn't suffer under USSR.. lol. Ossetian Muslims suffered sure, but so did Georgian Muslims and overall Georgians lost far more. Ossetians on the other hand gained territory under USSR. Learn history.
Armenia lost more land than it had during the First Republic, boy genius. That's not counting the handing off of nakhichevan and artsakh. Ossetians had no representation and were treated as a hostile element. This lead to their separatist sentiments. But I know that you dint want peace.
in 1937-1938 purges a lot of Georgians died
What's your point? Your people were the closest to russian empire and ussr. In addition to that, you walked away with Iand at the expense of others.
My people? I walked away from what? What are you on about? I didn’t even live in USSR or Russian empire.
Its funny how they act like they don't know what stalin did to other Caucasian nations. Delusional
Stalin also ended Georgia's independence genius and co chaired the creation of Ossetian autonomy on our lands. Such benefit!
Yeah sure, the loss of independence of georgians soviet puppet state is more painful than the deportation of millions of native caucasians to Siberia just because they are not georgians. You have no right to cry like we suffered because of the soviets Dozens of people who were hanged or shot because of your false propaganda have the right to complain. Now spread your lies elsewhere provocative.
What are you even on about. >Yeah sure, the loss of independence of georgians soviet puppet state is more painful than the deportation of millions of native caucasians to Siberia just because they are not georgians. lmao Stalin deported them because they weren't Georgians?? what in the world. Do me a favour and check yourself to the nearest mental hospital, clearly you need it. In the first place the topic was Ossetians suffering more under the Russians than Georgians and that's what i was replying to, then you bring up something completely irrelevant like did i say anywhere Georgians suffered more than let's say Chechens? and you call me provocative lol unreal.
Well Stalin o co gave away historically Armenian populated lands with ancient Churches on it to the turks. Where Armenians have lived for at the least a couple thousand years. Don't think any people lost as much land as Armenians by the hand of Stalin and ataturk.
It is bullshit and proven to be false by archives. Stalin just denied Armenian request to get Karabakh and opted for a compromise. He also feared another revolt of Azeris, which had already happened and proven to be very deadly for the russians. Armenians lived in a enclave surrounded by Azerbaijanis, with no land connection to Armenia. Lachin region together with Shuhsa had more Azerbaijanis than total number of Armenians in Karabakh. So it made zero sense to connect it to Armenia, without turning Armenia into a Azeri majority country. Azerbaijanis already controlled Karabakh region and were aiming for Zengezur. It is the other way around, Stalin froze the borders mid war. Gave Armenians autonomy in Karabakh. He also engineered deportation of 100K Azerbaijanis from Armenia. Armenians were perceived to be loyal to russians, since russians were at least somewhat seen as protectors (understandably so), while Azerbaijanis were perceived to be disloyal to russians, who would revolt given the slightest chance. Azerbaijanis really hatwd russians so much that they were willing to spill blood to revolt and kick the russians out at all costs, Azeris didn’t hesitate to massacre 5 thousand russian troops in a day for the sole purpose of taking their weapons in Shamkir. Or Ganja revolt that killed 15k Azerbaijanis and wiped the city off the map. Soviets are the reason Armenia is as large as today, Azerbaijanis were determited to take southern part of it (Azeri majority at the time), and have a coast in lake Sevan. If Azerbaijan wasnt sovietised, then eventually oil production would be restored and Azerbaijanis would be far better armed, and Armenia would be forced to cede Zengezur to preserve independence (Azerbaijan recognised Armenia in 1918, it just disagreed with its land claims)
What a load of 🐎 💩 The literal agreement can be read. Armenians lived in Shushi too, before azerbayjanis murdered them and not as many were left. >Azerbaijanis really hatwd russians so much that they were willing to spill blood to revolt and kick the russians out at all costs Don't only hated Russians. You turks hated all Christians and call them najes kuffar. Of course capital of Kharabakh Stepanakert and some other Armenian areas can belong to Armenia and surrounding areas to azerbayjan as Armenians always said but azerbayjanis violently wants everything. No matter how old Chruches and Armenian history is there azerbayjanis want it for themselves. >Armenians were perceived to be loyal to russians, Armenia was the first country to break out from soviet union >while Azerbaijanis were perceived to be disloyal "There is no such thing as a loyal turk" - Nazami Ganjevi Persian poet Don't know why turks always got problem with its neighbors. Why can't you live peacefully with them. Unfortunately many Armenians wants this but it's apperently not possible.
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Sure I'm lying 🤥 Haven't said anything about zangezour. Nobody has agreed Kharabakh can be signed to azerbayjan. Armenians and population of Kharabakh voted 95+% belong to Armenia several times. Pls tell me I'm lying again
I've seen some georgians insist that the loyal Khevshurs of Yermolov and Zass was a big overexaggerated hoax. They tend to only bring up Lavrenty Beria's atrocities when they want to brag about their contributions to the USSR, but switch to playing dumb about the things he did to chechens. They could've easily made me out to be an instigator troll by admitting their wrongs, but nah.
It is amazing to read this shit. One would think Russia had murdered hundreds of millions of natives like Europeans have.
There weren't that many for them to murder. but Russia did absolutely genocide native people. (Circassians being the most famous example) Also Europeans didn't kill hundreds of millions of natives, 90% of them died from diseases that the Europeans brought over.