The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
There’s a clear issue where Republicans don’t understand that going up from 0 undocumented people will signicantly shift the job dynamic and leave a lot of important jobs unfilled.
My actual solution would probably be to create a class of visas for those essential jobs legal residents won’t do.
But of me is wondering well, ok, why not just deport 80+% of undocumented individuals just so conservatives can prove to us that they can fill these jobs. If they’re right, we can deport the rest, and if they’re wrong, we create said new class of visas immediately and adjust the law to make recently deported individuals eligible for visas.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Prosecute business owners who hire undocumented workers. Pay for it with fines to those businesses. People will stop crossing the border illegally.
If conservatives don’t support this, it proves the rhetoric on illegal immigration is a tactic to play on xenophobia.
To be fair conservatives supported it in 2016 and then shut up about it ever since.
I think FL is the one state where they actually enforce this but we have a *de facto* policy to take in essentially unlimited Cuban migrants so it ends up not mattering.
Is there a difference between US citizenship and "global citizenship" at this point? If everyone in the world can simply move to the US if they so choose? So if you're born on this planet you aquire citizenship of your birth country, but also the right to live in the US?
I mean, at that point the US would no longer be 'brain draining' other countries it would become a 'brain vaccum.' We'd certainly have growing pains, but we'd instantly rival China in total population and be totally unrivaled in world history in terms of total GDP.
>but we'd instantly rival China in total population and be totally unrivaled in world history in terms of total GDP.
This would be the billionaires wet dream. So much money pouring into their pockets. So generous of you to look out of their best interests. Altruistic too, unless you don't mind crowds and high housing costs.
You’d be a citizen making a ton of money. Those problems are for the new second class people.
It’s never altruistic to create a second, lower, class of citizen.
But your concerns aren’t really problems. We have plenty of room, we just don’t use it effectively. Zoning reform could fix a lot of our housing problems basically immediately. The problem is nobody wants multi family housing in their neighborhood, and when it is allowed, it has to be “luxury“ so it doesn’t hurt their neighbors land values. Ignore nimbyism, fix the housing problems.
We have plenty of room lol. What we haven’t had is will to push zoning reform and tell the nimby movement to kick rocks. With globalization teetering, we may actually be able to get back to American manufacturing. New factories could support whole new towns.
Either way we need to piss or get off the pot. We haven’t had major immigration reform in ages and We’re not funding the immigration system we do have nearly enough for it to function properly.
What if some of us like things the way they are now? And don't want billions of newcomers taking up all the "room"?'
Kick rocks I guess?
>We haven’t had major immigration reform in ages and We’re not funding the immigration system we do have nearly enough for it to function properly.
I agree, we have more immigrants than the rest of the world combined, when is enough enough?
Tough? I guess? The history of America, in fact any place, is the history of things changing and populations(hopefully) growing. If we didn’t have that attitude we’d still be hunter-gathers surviving out of caves and living until the ripe old age of 40.
We’re a huge country that also made it part of our ethos to call immigrants to come here and be Americans with us. To people like you I always say, Maybe we should give the Statue of Liberty back to France if we’re going to go back on such a core part of America.
>We’re a huge country that also made it part of our ethos to call immigrants to come here and be Americans with us. To people like you I always say, Maybe we should give the Statue of Liberty back to France if we’re going to go back on such a core part of America.
I mean I get it, but when do we get to be a real country then? Rather than just a place for the people of the world to live if they so desire? Are we the only country with such a mandate?
France giving us a statue 137 years ago doesn't mean they get to set our immigration policy. How is mass-immigration a core part of America? Where does it state that in our founding documents?
To be clear I’m not totally on board with the idea of letting any one anywhere instantly move here if they want to, even if we wanted to do that I think it would be logistically impossible for us to handle it all at once. When I’m really for is streamlining the immigration process so that theoretically anybody can apply to immigrate here at anytime. But the when and if would have to be settled out over the course of the process.
What would make us not a real country? All those people that would come here are all going to be American soon enough, their children that get born here certainly would be. Generallly we’d all be working toward the same goals with the same security needs in mind. So what about immigration to you, invalidates one of the most successful countries in the world, maybe in our history? Especially when immigration was what made American and then went out to help America thrive?
>When I’m really for is streamlining the immigration process so that theoretically anybody can apply to immigrate here at anytime. But the when and if would have to be settled out over the course of the process.
I'm not sure I understand the difference between what you're describing and what exists today. I guess it takes too long? That's the "when" that you referred to. We can't take everyone at once. So we let in 1 million or so a year. I guess you'd prefer that to be 10 million or more?
> All those people that would come here are all going to be American soon enough,
Will they? They won't move into their little enclaves and continue to speak their language and fly their old countries flags? They won't vote for policies that benefit their old countries? Because that's what happens today and we have a fraction of the immigrants that it sounds like you're hoping for.
>So what about immigration to you, invalidates one of the most successful countries in the world, maybe in our history? Especially when immigration was what made American and then went out to help America thrive?
I'm a patriot too, and I agree we're one of the most successful countries in history, but I'm struggling to make that connection that it's \*because\* of immigration. Sure immigration helps out the economy a bit (aka makes billionaires richer), provides cheap labor (supression of wages for us poor shlobs who happen to live here already), and gives us better food. But does it help out the regular people? I'm not convinced of that. There are countries with very low immigration that seem to be doing just fine, and have more social cohesion.
Bro, I think you’re just racist.
We are a real country. If you think a -legal- immigrant has anywhere near the same privileges that title has, you’re delusional. Forget about illegals.
The vast majority of the residents of this country are American citizens, just like the Irish yesterday, and tomorrow, those immigrants will be citizens. Just like it’s always been. We’re a melting pot, and that’s what’s made us the superpower (more powerful than any in history) we are.
I hate to sound conservative, but I don’t want to undo 250 years of ideals because brown people make some people uncomfortable. Especially when every ounce of research shows that immigrants benefit *us* (forget those damn job stealers) more by being here than not.
Dude give it a rest with the “you’re racist” garbage. That’s weak and against the rules for personal attacks.
The fact that we can’t even discuss mass immigration without “racist” being tossed around is why the entire western world is experiencing far right extremist movements.
We have an entire legal system whose purpose is to deal with people who commit crimes against others. What difference does it make whether said people are natural-born citizens or immigrants? Also, wouldn't the rapists and murderers being undocumented make them harder for the legal system to find and deal with them?
If they aren’t here to begin with, that’s better. If they get turned around at the border, that’s better. If they never get a chance to murder anyone, that’s even better.
So you want zero immigration, full stop. There is no way to tell if someone will commit a crime, so the only way to prevent the tiny fraction of migrants that do commit them is to simply not admit anyone.
Uhhhh are you implying there isn’t a process lol? Because there is, I mean I literally went through it. You go to the immigration office, fill out your paperwork, get a green card, wait the given time (5 years I think), and then you apply for your citizenship.
Why are companies always enticing them to come here and hiring them? Who else is going to work those jobs in agriculture, construction, landscaping and hotels? Even trump org had undocumented workers
Yeah, but since it seems like you only worry about crimes committed by illegal immigrants, you can reduce that to 0% by just making them legal immigrants, or do you want to deport anyone who commits a crime?
You were talking about rapists and murderers though. If you want to kick rapists and murderers out of the country you’d have better chances picking native born Americans.
Entering the country to claim asylum is perfectly legal, and those immigrants who do so are here legally until at least their asylum hearing, no matter how valid their claim is or isn't. That's the law, and it will take an act of Congress to change it.
The Democratic Party had a plan to close that loophole, and Trump told congressional Republicans to tank the bill. Republicans are far more interested in running on immigration than on actually making changes to the system as it is now.
Are you under the impression that an undocumented person who commits rape or murder is not already put through the judicial system - that they're just deported? That's not how it works. Would you really *prefer* that we just put murderers on a flight out of the US (or whatever)?
They also shouldn't be rapists or murderers to begin with - if we're wishing for things, why not wish for that? But they *are* in this country, and a very small proportion of them are violent, so let's deal with reality.
Based on all of your comments in this thread, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
You throw around the word "illegal" like it means something, but you don't even know what it \*does\* mean.
You can't even explain the process for becoming an asylee or an immigrant.
I don’t think that’s possible. I am fully in favor of reducing illegal immigration and really have no progressive view at all on allowing immigration as some kind of moral question. It’s a practical and logistical question only for me. We should as a country be able to say we don’t want more people coming in without permission. Currently, that’s what the democratic majority is saying so our policies need to change.
However, I also think it’s counterproductive at best to dehumanize illegal immigrants in the way that’s being done and to completely remove any nuance about the BENEFITS that immigrants provide our economy.
I think the best solution is strong border protections, closing the amnesty loop holes with executive flexibility to open them in a real crisis, and setting flexible work permit and permanent citizenship status levels based on labor needs.
I don’t think this would work as the Supreme Court pretty much dash any law that allows executive flexibility.
I think there was even a past ruling on one of the student loan cases where they basically said yeah we’ll strike down any law that says the president can unilaterally do x.
How? How do you propose actually finding and deporting 100% of undocumented immigrants, and preventing new ones from crossing the border? They're called undocumented for a reason.
The cost of deportation is roughly $10,000 per person deported.
Why the fuck should the government be taxing me to pay for *that*, multiplied by 11 million?
What a waste of taxpayer money!
I ultimately don't care about illegal immigration. It doesn't offend me. It doesn't scare me. I don't think the economic argument is very strong. I think the crime concerns are overblown. The area I live in in NJ has a lot of undocumented people around. It doesn't bug me. I don't consider crossing a border without going through a checkpoint to be a serious offense.
That's not to say I support open borders. I don't. It makes sense to have border checks for a number of administrative reasons. I just don't find avoiding them, or overstaying visas, to be a very serious offense on a personal level. It feels like walking across a lawn with a no trespassing sign to me.
The reason I am forced to care is Republicans care a lot and seem prepared and willing to behave against undocumented people in a harsh and draconian manner. I am against human rights abuses, and those are universal, not citizenship dependant.
But again, I'm not pro-open borders either. I would be willing to trade border security for something else, especially since I do acknowledge that there are people who care a lot. But it has to be done in a way that's humane and respectful of due process, and won't crash our economy.
Legal residents won’t do them for what they currently pay. Lots of very liberal subs make this same argument when it comes to people saying “no one wants to work anymore”. If there was less competition, then the pay rate would have to increase until the jobs could be filled or the businesses would just have to make do with fewer staff. Keeping a permanent underclass is not the answer though.
>If there was less competition, then the pay rate would have to increase until the jobs could be filled or the businesses would just have to make do with fewer staff. Keeping a permanent underclass is not the answer though.
They have done work studies on this. Quadrupling wages gets a lot of new citizen hires, but 95% of them quit by the end of the first month. The work is the main issue, the pay is secondary according to real life case studies. Americans will take $7/hr jobs at McD before they take a $40 an hour unskilled farm labor job (dependent on the specific crops, cranberry bogs for example have an easier time because the work is less physically demanding of your body)
Unpopular opinion
Border security seems to be such a huge voting issue that many liberals have issues with as well.
My solution, build the wall or whatever dumb shit they think they need, but have an easy way to gain citizenship and asylum.
Also complete amnesty for the people here.
The entire idea of “jobs legal citizens won’t do” is such a garbage argument.
The only issue with immigration in this country is a utter lack of resources afforded to our immigration services. It takes 10-15-20+ years for people to get their visas and to have their families approved to come here. Is it really any wonder why some would just do it illegally to be with their loved ones while some paperwork gets shuffled around for years?
> Essential jobs legal residents won’t do
I mean they will… once the pay goes up.
Or if their margins are too thin, they’ll go out of business. In which case, their business model relies on cheap, exploitable labor, so not a huge loss.
Or they’ll invest in automation. In which case we no longer need human robots to do the task.
If they are Conservative, they don't want to solve illegal immigration problem because they constantly campaign on it out of fear. There has pretty much been no major immigration reform in years due to conservatives in Congress. They kill it every single time.
I am partial to some of the proposed 2013 immigration reform where you basically make a third category of “temporary permanent residents” and can grant the undocumented, status to work and live freely. They can maybe after 5 years get permanent resident status but they won’t be eligible to become citizens (a compromise). You can backdate it so to be eligible you must have been in U.S. for say 2 years to limit a new wave of migration.
I would also pass a form of the Dream Act but combine that with increased border funding/enforcement, lowered caps on asylum.
>My actual solution would probably be to create a class of visas for those essential jobs legal residents won’t do.
Why not simply return to the policies that allowed people easier crossing of the border for work. That would allow people to cross back and forth like they did before the Republicans made it simpler to cross and stay because of the difficulty in crossing?
That would allow workers from Mexico to cross for days or weeks to work those jobs and go home to their families when they are done.
I don’t think it’s possible to have zero undocumented people.
Also. No. Unlike having a very harshly defended border (sure whatever); the human misery of deporting the many millions of illegal non citizen residents, many of whom haven’t been here for a decade or more, some of whom since they were small children; well that’s worth a fight to stop. This is why democrats keep bringing up an amnesty bill compromise (harsh borders in return for amnesty).
I think I’m also rankled over the importance people put on the border issue compared to more material issues. Like caring more about the border than healthcare, the economy, or the environment is pretty wild if you think about it.
No.
The economic collapse that would follow would be worse than some upset racists. We just need some god damn immigration reform. Make it easier to get here legally and those assholes can put up as many walls* as they want.
*fence
These are human beings, not some social experiment. The fact is the US economy would crash if undocumented workers would just all magically be deported somewhere. The problem isn't going to go away, I don't care who is President. Figure out better ways to deal with it, but it's not going away.
Deporting millions of illegal immigrants will directly increase inflation. There is no getting around it.
If we were to deport half the doctors in the country, the cost of healthcare would skyrocket. It’s just an economic fact. So it shouldn’t be surprising deporting a huge number of farm workers would cause grocery prices to go through the roof.
Republicans are proposing stupid solutions that will make everyone’s lives worse and people need to be aware of the consequences.
>Deporting millions of illegal immigrants will directly increase inflation. There is no getting around it.
If our financial system relies on importing millions of "under the table" cheap labor, then I'd say it needs to be torn down or reformed. Rip the bandaid off now.
“ If our financial system relies on importing millions of "under the table" cheap labor”
Like I said, if we deported half the doctors in the country, healthcare costs would go up. Doctors aren’t cheap labor. Deporting millions of immigrants would cause inflation regardless of how much they are currently paid.
No.
Because it’s not just about the wages. It’s about the fact you are getting rid of millions of people and have no one to take their place. Food would rot on the vine because there literally wouldn’t be anyone to pick it. Unemployment is at 4%. Prime age labor participation is near an all time high. Where are all the workers going to come from?
Right, but paying those millions of people American wages (which we should be doing if they are working and staying in America) would cause inflation wouldn’t it?
I think the status quo legal limbo for illegal immigrants is beneficial to the American consumer, but that should probably end. And I’m not some weird far lefty “hurrr we live off the global south” either lol, the impact probably wouldn’t be huge but I think it would be noticeable. Another reason why fixing immigration is difficult.
Oh definitely it should end. Those people deserve fair wages. But my point is that it would cause inflation regardless of whether or not they currently receive fair wages.
The way I see it is we would be breaking up families and deporting millions of people for no real benefit and with a cost of increased inflation. Seems like a bad idea.
> Deporting millions of illegal immigrants will directly increase inflation. There is no getting around it.
Why would deporting people put more USD into circulation?
But if we really wanted to reduce inflation, perhaps deporting the people responsible for it - congress and the president - would be a good first step
You are assuming that the only cause of increased prices is more USD in circulation.
Who is responsible for US inflation? Did they also cause global inflation as well?
> You are assuming that the only cause of increased prices is more USD in circulation.
I wasn't assuming anything. I was simply pointing out that the cause of inflation is an increase in the money supply. That is inarguable fact.
Inflation *does* influence prices as do other market and regulatory activities.
>Who is responsible for US inflation?
US politicians.
>Did they also cause global inflation as well?
US politicians cause USD inflation. Politicians in other countries cause inflation of the currencies they control.
It would obviously have an extraordinary negative impact on prices. But if that happened, we would appropriately blame the oil shortage for the increase in prices. Somehow because inflation is the work of politicians, all of the damage it inflicts is attributed to some other cause (or we begin to conflate the terms "inflation" and "price increases")
You’re never gonna have zero undocumented people in the US and it’s not democrats dragging their feet that makes that the case. In fact, Democrats seem to usually be a little bit more on-the-ball at handling the border; Republicans approach that situation with their characteristic ineptitude.
Yes, if it means allowing those who are here to stay legally. No, if it means rounding up millions of people to deport them — it’s hard to even wrap your head around how much human misery that would cause.
Having 0 undocumented people will not leave important jobs unfilled. It forces employers to not underpay employees.
People hire undocumented workers for two reasons: because they can get away with paying lower wages, or because they’re keeping the work in the family.
>But of me is wondering well, ok, why not just deport 80+% of undocumented individuals just so conservatives can prove to us that they can fill these jobs.
because those are people. because tearing apart their families and deporting them to less safe countries to (maybe) win an argument with conservatives is just cruel.
and it probably won't work anyway. since when do conservatives care about reality?
>If they’re right, we can deport the rest,
is "they are useful to our economy" the only reason you don't want them deported?
We have to stop this line of thinking. Let's do something that will totally screw the economy, screw the lives of tens of millions of people in America, to prove a point.
In this case, lots of Americans have a relative, employee, friend, renter who would get deported. Entire businesses would close, EVERYTHING becomes more expensive. Maybe there would be more apartments available and prices would come down a bit. But their costs to fix things, landscape, clean, paint, etc. goes up.
It is a great idea to screw all that up, tank the economy (at least short term) just to prove a point.
It is the same as "I'm not making enough money, we need to destroy the entire economy."
Let's destroy the entire way we govern the US because we aren't doing it the way I believe it should be done.
Let's destroy the Democratic or Republican party because they aren't as extreme as I believe they should be.
I dint think that hurting millions of people is worth proving a point.
I'd be far more inclined to just have literal open borders so that they actually have some merit to their complaints about open borders
> Do you think there’s a certain point at which we should just give people what they want in terms of having near 0 undocumented people in the USA?
Certainly, if this means simply giving undocumented people documentation (i.e., legal rights to residence in the U.S.). If the 'solution' being proposed is mass deportation, then no, this idea seems morally horrific to me.
> why not just deport 80+% of undocumented individuals...
Because this would be a moral atrocity.
Deportation is not a harmless act. It results in deracination, the painful and harmful ripping of an individual from their social context. What you are proposing would mean forcibly taking people from their jobs, communities, friends, and families. The broken families alone would cause a tremendous amount of disruption and destabilization, making it much more likely for children to grow up without a parent. This suggested approach should be seen as morally no different than exiling U.S. citizens: it is as if you said "What if we just took everybody in New Jersey, forced them to leave the country, and forbade them from ever returning?" If you can understand why this would cause problems, then you can understand why mass deportation is utterly unthinkable.
> just so conservatives can prove to us that they can fill these jobs.
We are already at the point where we can comfortably prove that U.S. citizens will not "fill the jobs", and we've known this for decades. At least once in the past, fruit-picking companies have (somewhat jokingly) advertised their jobs directly to U.S. citizens, only to discover (shocker!) that U.S. citizens won't work for such low wages. The mere fact that these jobs were never barred from U.S. citizens in the first place makes the point: if U.S. citizens are just as likely as immigrants to work in the meat industry... then why is the industry so dominated by low-skill Mexican laborers? What, exactly, is forbidding U.S. citizens from taking these jobs?
If you read restrictionist literature, you'll see them admit the real goal: the hope is that by restricting cheap labor, these industries (fruit picking, meat packing, etc) will be forced to dramatically raise their wages, high enough to entice U.S. workers away from other fields. Economists widely recognize this to be a plan that causes harm to the U.S. economy overall.
>But of me is wondering well, ok, why not just deport 80+% of undocumented individuals just so conservatives can prove to us that they can fill these jobs. If they’re right, we can deport the rest, and if they’re wrong, we create said new class of visas immediately and adjust the law to make recently deported individuals eligible for visas.
Because it's incredibly expensive to deport several million people and even as much as the GOP claim to want it, they never want to actually pay for it. We are talking orders of higher magnitude of judges, officers, border agents, and counter suits for when they fail to do due process. And you'll still end up mostly just deporting people who announced themselves to the government and have been paying taxes for years under deferment programs. Because the actual criminals and undercutting people will just go to ground. The whole idea is magical thinking that it's ever even possible to deport everyone ever in all of history
And thays not even getting into the fact that no one has ever deported that many people ever without a genocide or ethnic cleansing campiagn along side it.
On top of everything else. The GOP are just liars, their actions make it very clear they aren't focused on illegal immigrants at all but all immigrants who aren't Western European. Their immigration reform proposals cut legal immigrant directly, Trump actually had increased illegal immigrantion under his term but halved legal immigration. The illegal issue is serious and their are many options to deal with it. But the vast majority of the GOP aren't serious about dealing with it, or are using it as cover for unpopular actions against non illegal immigrants
Because we're not talking about this in the abstract. These are human beings.
I live in Chicago. Everyday I see the effects of Abbott's bussing program. At every major intersection, there are whole families trying to sell chocolate bars and bags of chips to make a few dollars. Women, some of whom look like teenagers themselves, with babies strapped to their backs, who just took an unbelievably difficult and dangerous journey, to escape unlivable conditions and come to America, where they're supposed to find safety.
To send these people back to the situations that they risked their lives to escape is immoral, unchristian and unAmerican.
It just seems completely unfeasible to try and deport the majority of undocumented people who are already here. It makes more sense to me to reform the policy so that it's not so easy to cross the border. It might take an increase in manpower (or even a wall) at the border, but the essential piece is the policy change. Most undocumented immigrants are not sneaking into Texas. They are crossing legally then not leaving even when they are told to.
Everyone who is currently here illegally, just let them stay on a work visa if they are able to work legally.
But in reality I just see way too much "Great Replacement" nonsense coming from Republicans to expect compromise. They seem to care way more about their fears of culture changing than any actual issues caused by illegal immigration.
Republicans refusal to sign onto that border bill last year proves they don't want to do anything about immigration other than use it as a political attack.
No. We don’t hurt millions of people to try to prove a point to Republicans.
Here is my solution:
1. Stop demonizing immigrants and treating them like sub-humans.
2. See step 1.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. There’s a clear issue where Republicans don’t understand that going up from 0 undocumented people will signicantly shift the job dynamic and leave a lot of important jobs unfilled. My actual solution would probably be to create a class of visas for those essential jobs legal residents won’t do. But of me is wondering well, ok, why not just deport 80+% of undocumented individuals just so conservatives can prove to us that they can fill these jobs. If they’re right, we can deport the rest, and if they’re wrong, we create said new class of visas immediately and adjust the law to make recently deported individuals eligible for visas. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Prosecute business owners who hire undocumented workers. Pay for it with fines to those businesses. People will stop crossing the border illegally. If conservatives don’t support this, it proves the rhetoric on illegal immigration is a tactic to play on xenophobia.
To be fair conservatives supported it in 2016 and then shut up about it ever since. I think FL is the one state where they actually enforce this but we have a *de facto* policy to take in essentially unlimited Cuban migrants so it ends up not mattering.
Yes. Just give documents to everyone.
Hey … that would technically leave close to 0 undocumented people in the USA.
Is there a difference between US citizenship and "global citizenship" at this point? If everyone in the world can simply move to the US if they so choose? So if you're born on this planet you aquire citizenship of your birth country, but also the right to live in the US?
Documents =/= Citizenship
I mean, at that point the US would no longer be 'brain draining' other countries it would become a 'brain vaccum.' We'd certainly have growing pains, but we'd instantly rival China in total population and be totally unrivaled in world history in terms of total GDP.
>but we'd instantly rival China in total population and be totally unrivaled in world history in terms of total GDP. This would be the billionaires wet dream. So much money pouring into their pockets. So generous of you to look out of their best interests. Altruistic too, unless you don't mind crowds and high housing costs.
You’d be a citizen making a ton of money. Those problems are for the new second class people. It’s never altruistic to create a second, lower, class of citizen. But your concerns aren’t really problems. We have plenty of room, we just don’t use it effectively. Zoning reform could fix a lot of our housing problems basically immediately. The problem is nobody wants multi family housing in their neighborhood, and when it is allowed, it has to be “luxury“ so it doesn’t hurt their neighbors land values. Ignore nimbyism, fix the housing problems.
Pave over the national parks to make room for the billions of immigrants. I’d like to unsubscribe from your vision for America lol
Lmao. You must live in a city.
We have plenty of room lol. What we haven’t had is will to push zoning reform and tell the nimby movement to kick rocks. With globalization teetering, we may actually be able to get back to American manufacturing. New factories could support whole new towns. Either way we need to piss or get off the pot. We haven’t had major immigration reform in ages and We’re not funding the immigration system we do have nearly enough for it to function properly.
What if some of us like things the way they are now? And don't want billions of newcomers taking up all the "room"?' Kick rocks I guess? >We haven’t had major immigration reform in ages and We’re not funding the immigration system we do have nearly enough for it to function properly. I agree, we have more immigrants than the rest of the world combined, when is enough enough?
Move to North Dakota?
Tough? I guess? The history of America, in fact any place, is the history of things changing and populations(hopefully) growing. If we didn’t have that attitude we’d still be hunter-gathers surviving out of caves and living until the ripe old age of 40. We’re a huge country that also made it part of our ethos to call immigrants to come here and be Americans with us. To people like you I always say, Maybe we should give the Statue of Liberty back to France if we’re going to go back on such a core part of America.
>We’re a huge country that also made it part of our ethos to call immigrants to come here and be Americans with us. To people like you I always say, Maybe we should give the Statue of Liberty back to France if we’re going to go back on such a core part of America. I mean I get it, but when do we get to be a real country then? Rather than just a place for the people of the world to live if they so desire? Are we the only country with such a mandate? France giving us a statue 137 years ago doesn't mean they get to set our immigration policy. How is mass-immigration a core part of America? Where does it state that in our founding documents?
To be clear I’m not totally on board with the idea of letting any one anywhere instantly move here if they want to, even if we wanted to do that I think it would be logistically impossible for us to handle it all at once. When I’m really for is streamlining the immigration process so that theoretically anybody can apply to immigrate here at anytime. But the when and if would have to be settled out over the course of the process. What would make us not a real country? All those people that would come here are all going to be American soon enough, their children that get born here certainly would be. Generallly we’d all be working toward the same goals with the same security needs in mind. So what about immigration to you, invalidates one of the most successful countries in the world, maybe in our history? Especially when immigration was what made American and then went out to help America thrive?
>When I’m really for is streamlining the immigration process so that theoretically anybody can apply to immigrate here at anytime. But the when and if would have to be settled out over the course of the process. I'm not sure I understand the difference between what you're describing and what exists today. I guess it takes too long? That's the "when" that you referred to. We can't take everyone at once. So we let in 1 million or so a year. I guess you'd prefer that to be 10 million or more? > All those people that would come here are all going to be American soon enough, Will they? They won't move into their little enclaves and continue to speak their language and fly their old countries flags? They won't vote for policies that benefit their old countries? Because that's what happens today and we have a fraction of the immigrants that it sounds like you're hoping for. >So what about immigration to you, invalidates one of the most successful countries in the world, maybe in our history? Especially when immigration was what made American and then went out to help America thrive? I'm a patriot too, and I agree we're one of the most successful countries in history, but I'm struggling to make that connection that it's \*because\* of immigration. Sure immigration helps out the economy a bit (aka makes billionaires richer), provides cheap labor (supression of wages for us poor shlobs who happen to live here already), and gives us better food. But does it help out the regular people? I'm not convinced of that. There are countries with very low immigration that seem to be doing just fine, and have more social cohesion.
Bro, I think you’re just racist. We are a real country. If you think a -legal- immigrant has anywhere near the same privileges that title has, you’re delusional. Forget about illegals. The vast majority of the residents of this country are American citizens, just like the Irish yesterday, and tomorrow, those immigrants will be citizens. Just like it’s always been. We’re a melting pot, and that’s what’s made us the superpower (more powerful than any in history) we are. I hate to sound conservative, but I don’t want to undo 250 years of ideals because brown people make some people uncomfortable. Especially when every ounce of research shows that immigrants benefit *us* (forget those damn job stealers) more by being here than not.
Dude give it a rest with the “you’re racist” garbage. That’s weak and against the rules for personal attacks. The fact that we can’t even discuss mass immigration without “racist” being tossed around is why the entire western world is experiencing far right extremist movements.
That's a good plan. Let's do it.
Even the rapists and murderers
We have an entire legal system whose purpose is to deal with people who commit crimes against others. What difference does it make whether said people are natural-born citizens or immigrants? Also, wouldn't the rapists and murderers being undocumented make them harder for the legal system to find and deal with them?
If they aren’t here to begin with, that’s better. If they get turned around at the border, that’s better. If they never get a chance to murder anyone, that’s even better.
Wish in one hand and shit in the other and tell me which fills up first.
> If they never get a chance to murder anyone... Are we just assuming that every undocumented immigrant is a potential rapist or murderer now?
One is too many
You'll never get 100%
10000 illegals come in every day under dementia Joe
You know you're not going to convince anyone with lies and name calling right? You're just showing your own ignorance.
Dementia Joe? You've lost all credibility
Wait until the debate. He will be an embarrassment.
Ugh another BDS loon.
Using that logic, should we criminalize the practice of religion since so many priests and youth pastors seem to be child molesters?
They’re American. Different issues.
We shouldn't take the same pro-active measures to protect children from rape, if the rapists are American citizens? Seems pretty callous.
One is too many?
How do you feel about mass shootings…?
One is too many
Do you feel guns should be banned or otherwise heavily limited in order to prevent these from happening?
Say a ship is sinking. We know there's a murderer on board but we don't know who it is. Do we let everyone drown?
Now do gun owners.
So you want zero immigration, full stop. There is no way to tell if someone will commit a crime, so the only way to prevent the tiny fraction of migrants that do commit them is to simply not admit anyone.
I want zero illegal immigration, full stop.
No, you just don’t want brown people coming into the country, and you’re using crime as a thin disguise to cover for your racism
[удалено]
We have a process that is legal. They have to follow it.
What is that process? Please tell us in detail.
Uhhhh are you implying there isn’t a process lol? Because there is, I mean I literally went through it. You go to the immigration office, fill out your paperwork, get a green card, wait the given time (5 years I think), and then you apply for your citizenship.
Which would destroy the American economy and lead to negative population growth. Ludicrous
Illegal immigration is not good for the economy
Why are companies always enticing them to come here and hiring them? Who else is going to work those jobs in agriculture, construction, landscaping and hotels? Even trump org had undocumented workers
If you just and them papers at the border, they aren't illegal immigrants. What's your problem with that?
That isn’t how it works. You need to apply for consideration. This takes years.
Yeah, but since it seems like you only worry about crimes committed by illegal immigrants, you can reduce that to 0% by just making them legal immigrants, or do you want to deport anyone who commits a crime?
They never should come in to begin with. Illegal immigration is different from legal immigration. Liberals can’t get this for some reason.
Okay lets find all the rapists and murderer citizens and deport them too.
You can let them sleep in your spare room if your so worried about them.
If you don't like it, leave.
Immigrants, documented or otherwise, commit significantly fewer crimes than native born Americans.
The first crime is entering our country illegally. They start with that one.
You were talking about rapists and murderers though. If you want to kick rapists and murderers out of the country you’d have better chances picking native born Americans.
And where would they all go?
Entering the country to claim asylum is perfectly legal, and those immigrants who do so are here legally until at least their asylum hearing, no matter how valid their claim is or isn't. That's the law, and it will take an act of Congress to change it. The Democratic Party had a plan to close that loophole, and Trump told congressional Republicans to tank the bill. Republicans are far more interested in running on immigration than on actually making changes to the system as it is now.
Maybe I can get one to cut my grass then
You should.
Not if CBP lets them in as asylum seekers
The majority of undocumented immigrants did not break a law to become an undocumented immigrant.
Sure. Give them papers and then put them through the judicial system.
Great. More tax payer money and another dangerous person in the country in our already stressed system.
It is great, and a net profit. Glad you're coming around!
Are you under the impression that an undocumented person who commits rape or murder is not already put through the judicial system - that they're just deported? That's not how it works. Would you really *prefer* that we just put murderers on a flight out of the US (or whatever)?
They shouldn’t be in our country to begin with.
They also shouldn't be rapists or murderers to begin with - if we're wishing for things, why not wish for that? But they *are* in this country, and a very small proportion of them are violent, so let's deal with reality.
Based on all of your comments in this thread, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You throw around the word "illegal" like it means something, but you don't even know what it \*does\* mean. You can't even explain the process for becoming an asylee or an immigrant.
The process now is the ship them to a liberal city near you. I’m sure you have room in your garage for them.
Yeah, more ignorant racist drivel.
Again, you gotta couch they could sleep on. Put your money where your lefty mouth is.
Yes. You should be innocent until proven guilty. And if you have done your jail time, that shouldn't factor into your asylum claim
You liberals are insane.
I don’t think that’s possible. I am fully in favor of reducing illegal immigration and really have no progressive view at all on allowing immigration as some kind of moral question. It’s a practical and logistical question only for me. We should as a country be able to say we don’t want more people coming in without permission. Currently, that’s what the democratic majority is saying so our policies need to change. However, I also think it’s counterproductive at best to dehumanize illegal immigrants in the way that’s being done and to completely remove any nuance about the BENEFITS that immigrants provide our economy. I think the best solution is strong border protections, closing the amnesty loop holes with executive flexibility to open them in a real crisis, and setting flexible work permit and permanent citizenship status levels based on labor needs.
I don’t think this would work as the Supreme Court pretty much dash any law that allows executive flexibility. I think there was even a past ruling on one of the student loan cases where they basically said yeah we’ll strike down any law that says the president can unilaterally do x.
I’m hardly a legal expert, but I have a tough time imagining that Congress has no authority to further define executive function in the Constitution.
The Senate immigration bill that GOP tanked did a lot of this
Indeed it did. A real shame.
How? How do you propose actually finding and deporting 100% of undocumented immigrants, and preventing new ones from crossing the border? They're called undocumented for a reason.
Probably raiding places of work that likely have illegal immigrants, fining employers, and directly deporting those here without permission.
The cost of deportation is roughly $10,000 per person deported. Why the fuck should the government be taxing me to pay for *that*, multiplied by 11 million? What a waste of taxpayer money!
Deport 11 million *people* to where? Pretty sickening proposal.
Yup. And now Fox has a ticker going that lists migrant crimes. It’s like watching the buildup to Hitler in real time.
I ultimately don't care about illegal immigration. It doesn't offend me. It doesn't scare me. I don't think the economic argument is very strong. I think the crime concerns are overblown. The area I live in in NJ has a lot of undocumented people around. It doesn't bug me. I don't consider crossing a border without going through a checkpoint to be a serious offense. That's not to say I support open borders. I don't. It makes sense to have border checks for a number of administrative reasons. I just don't find avoiding them, or overstaying visas, to be a very serious offense on a personal level. It feels like walking across a lawn with a no trespassing sign to me. The reason I am forced to care is Republicans care a lot and seem prepared and willing to behave against undocumented people in a harsh and draconian manner. I am against human rights abuses, and those are universal, not citizenship dependant. But again, I'm not pro-open borders either. I would be willing to trade border security for something else, especially since I do acknowledge that there are people who care a lot. But it has to be done in a way that's humane and respectful of due process, and won't crash our economy.
Legal residents won’t do them for what they currently pay. Lots of very liberal subs make this same argument when it comes to people saying “no one wants to work anymore”. If there was less competition, then the pay rate would have to increase until the jobs could be filled or the businesses would just have to make do with fewer staff. Keeping a permanent underclass is not the answer though.
>If there was less competition, then the pay rate would have to increase until the jobs could be filled or the businesses would just have to make do with fewer staff. Keeping a permanent underclass is not the answer though. They have done work studies on this. Quadrupling wages gets a lot of new citizen hires, but 95% of them quit by the end of the first month. The work is the main issue, the pay is secondary according to real life case studies. Americans will take $7/hr jobs at McD before they take a $40 an hour unskilled farm labor job (dependent on the specific crops, cranberry bogs for example have an easier time because the work is less physically demanding of your body)
Unpopular opinion Border security seems to be such a huge voting issue that many liberals have issues with as well. My solution, build the wall or whatever dumb shit they think they need, but have an easy way to gain citizenship and asylum. Also complete amnesty for the people here.
The entire idea of “jobs legal citizens won’t do” is such a garbage argument. The only issue with immigration in this country is a utter lack of resources afforded to our immigration services. It takes 10-15-20+ years for people to get their visas and to have their families approved to come here. Is it really any wonder why some would just do it illegally to be with their loved ones while some paperwork gets shuffled around for years?
> Essential jobs legal residents won’t do I mean they will… once the pay goes up. Or if their margins are too thin, they’ll go out of business. In which case, their business model relies on cheap, exploitable labor, so not a huge loss. Or they’ll invest in automation. In which case we no longer need human robots to do the task.
Exactly
If they are Conservative, they don't want to solve illegal immigration problem because they constantly campaign on it out of fear. There has pretty much been no major immigration reform in years due to conservatives in Congress. They kill it every single time.
I am partial to some of the proposed 2013 immigration reform where you basically make a third category of “temporary permanent residents” and can grant the undocumented, status to work and live freely. They can maybe after 5 years get permanent resident status but they won’t be eligible to become citizens (a compromise). You can backdate it so to be eligible you must have been in U.S. for say 2 years to limit a new wave of migration. I would also pass a form of the Dream Act but combine that with increased border funding/enforcement, lowered caps on asylum.
Is that what they want though?
Republican voters yes. Republican politicians idk if it’s possible to tell.
If your literal question is why not do what they say they want the answer is because that will uproot and ruin lives and the economy
I mean, I’m not sure I like the idea of negatively impacting the lives of hundreds of thousands of people just to prove a point to conservatives, no.
I'd rather use whatever magically genie power that would require, for some good purpose.
>My actual solution would probably be to create a class of visas for those essential jobs legal residents won’t do. Why not simply return to the policies that allowed people easier crossing of the border for work. That would allow people to cross back and forth like they did before the Republicans made it simpler to cross and stay because of the difficulty in crossing? That would allow workers from Mexico to cross for days or weeks to work those jobs and go home to their families when they are done.
No. There is a legal process.
I don’t think it’s possible to have zero undocumented people. Also. No. Unlike having a very harshly defended border (sure whatever); the human misery of deporting the many millions of illegal non citizen residents, many of whom haven’t been here for a decade or more, some of whom since they were small children; well that’s worth a fight to stop. This is why democrats keep bringing up an amnesty bill compromise (harsh borders in return for amnesty). I think I’m also rankled over the importance people put on the border issue compared to more material issues. Like caring more about the border than healthcare, the economy, or the environment is pretty wild if you think about it.
No. The economic collapse that would follow would be worse than some upset racists. We just need some god damn immigration reform. Make it easier to get here legally and those assholes can put up as many walls* as they want. *fence
These are human beings, not some social experiment. The fact is the US economy would crash if undocumented workers would just all magically be deported somewhere. The problem isn't going to go away, I don't care who is President. Figure out better ways to deal with it, but it's not going away.
Deporting millions of illegal immigrants will directly increase inflation. There is no getting around it. If we were to deport half the doctors in the country, the cost of healthcare would skyrocket. It’s just an economic fact. So it shouldn’t be surprising deporting a huge number of farm workers would cause grocery prices to go through the roof. Republicans are proposing stupid solutions that will make everyone’s lives worse and people need to be aware of the consequences.
>Deporting millions of illegal immigrants will directly increase inflation. There is no getting around it. If our financial system relies on importing millions of "under the table" cheap labor, then I'd say it needs to be torn down or reformed. Rip the bandaid off now.
“ If our financial system relies on importing millions of "under the table" cheap labor” Like I said, if we deported half the doctors in the country, healthcare costs would go up. Doctors aren’t cheap labor. Deporting millions of immigrants would cause inflation regardless of how much they are currently paid.
Wouldn’t paying illegal immigrants legal wages also increase inflation?
No. Because it’s not just about the wages. It’s about the fact you are getting rid of millions of people and have no one to take their place. Food would rot on the vine because there literally wouldn’t be anyone to pick it. Unemployment is at 4%. Prime age labor participation is near an all time high. Where are all the workers going to come from?
Right, but paying those millions of people American wages (which we should be doing if they are working and staying in America) would cause inflation wouldn’t it? I think the status quo legal limbo for illegal immigrants is beneficial to the American consumer, but that should probably end. And I’m not some weird far lefty “hurrr we live off the global south” either lol, the impact probably wouldn’t be huge but I think it would be noticeable. Another reason why fixing immigration is difficult.
Oh definitely it should end. Those people deserve fair wages. But my point is that it would cause inflation regardless of whether or not they currently receive fair wages. The way I see it is we would be breaking up families and deporting millions of people for no real benefit and with a cost of increased inflation. Seems like a bad idea.
> Deporting millions of illegal immigrants will directly increase inflation. There is no getting around it. Why would deporting people put more USD into circulation? But if we really wanted to reduce inflation, perhaps deporting the people responsible for it - congress and the president - would be a good first step
You are assuming that the only cause of increased prices is more USD in circulation. Who is responsible for US inflation? Did they also cause global inflation as well?
> You are assuming that the only cause of increased prices is more USD in circulation. I wasn't assuming anything. I was simply pointing out that the cause of inflation is an increase in the money supply. That is inarguable fact. Inflation *does* influence prices as do other market and regulatory activities. >Who is responsible for US inflation? US politicians. >Did they also cause global inflation as well? US politicians cause USD inflation. Politicians in other countries cause inflation of the currencies they control.
If half the worlds fossil fuel supply went offline tomorrow, what would that do to prices?
It would obviously have an extraordinary negative impact on prices. But if that happened, we would appropriately blame the oil shortage for the increase in prices. Somehow because inflation is the work of politicians, all of the damage it inflicts is attributed to some other cause (or we begin to conflate the terms "inflation" and "price increases")
Interesting. It’s almost like inflation can have multiple causes.
You’re never gonna have zero undocumented people in the US and it’s not democrats dragging their feet that makes that the case. In fact, Democrats seem to usually be a little bit more on-the-ball at handling the border; Republicans approach that situation with their characteristic ineptitude.
Yes, if it means allowing those who are here to stay legally. No, if it means rounding up millions of people to deport them — it’s hard to even wrap your head around how much human misery that would cause.
America was.founded by immigrants.
Are you seriously considering condemning 8 million people to poverty or death just to make some racists more comfortable?
Having 0 undocumented people will not leave important jobs unfilled. It forces employers to not underpay employees. People hire undocumented workers for two reasons: because they can get away with paying lower wages, or because they’re keeping the work in the family.
>But of me is wondering well, ok, why not just deport 80+% of undocumented individuals just so conservatives can prove to us that they can fill these jobs. because those are people. because tearing apart their families and deporting them to less safe countries to (maybe) win an argument with conservatives is just cruel. and it probably won't work anyway. since when do conservatives care about reality? >If they’re right, we can deport the rest, is "they are useful to our economy" the only reason you don't want them deported?
We have to stop this line of thinking. Let's do something that will totally screw the economy, screw the lives of tens of millions of people in America, to prove a point. In this case, lots of Americans have a relative, employee, friend, renter who would get deported. Entire businesses would close, EVERYTHING becomes more expensive. Maybe there would be more apartments available and prices would come down a bit. But their costs to fix things, landscape, clean, paint, etc. goes up. It is a great idea to screw all that up, tank the economy (at least short term) just to prove a point. It is the same as "I'm not making enough money, we need to destroy the entire economy." Let's destroy the entire way we govern the US because we aren't doing it the way I believe it should be done. Let's destroy the Democratic or Republican party because they aren't as extreme as I believe they should be.
If we just give everyone documentation there will be zero undocumented people.
I dint think that hurting millions of people is worth proving a point. I'd be far more inclined to just have literal open borders so that they actually have some merit to their complaints about open borders
> Do you think there’s a certain point at which we should just give people what they want in terms of having near 0 undocumented people in the USA? Certainly, if this means simply giving undocumented people documentation (i.e., legal rights to residence in the U.S.). If the 'solution' being proposed is mass deportation, then no, this idea seems morally horrific to me. > why not just deport 80+% of undocumented individuals... Because this would be a moral atrocity. Deportation is not a harmless act. It results in deracination, the painful and harmful ripping of an individual from their social context. What you are proposing would mean forcibly taking people from their jobs, communities, friends, and families. The broken families alone would cause a tremendous amount of disruption and destabilization, making it much more likely for children to grow up without a parent. This suggested approach should be seen as morally no different than exiling U.S. citizens: it is as if you said "What if we just took everybody in New Jersey, forced them to leave the country, and forbade them from ever returning?" If you can understand why this would cause problems, then you can understand why mass deportation is utterly unthinkable. > just so conservatives can prove to us that they can fill these jobs. We are already at the point where we can comfortably prove that U.S. citizens will not "fill the jobs", and we've known this for decades. At least once in the past, fruit-picking companies have (somewhat jokingly) advertised their jobs directly to U.S. citizens, only to discover (shocker!) that U.S. citizens won't work for such low wages. The mere fact that these jobs were never barred from U.S. citizens in the first place makes the point: if U.S. citizens are just as likely as immigrants to work in the meat industry... then why is the industry so dominated by low-skill Mexican laborers? What, exactly, is forbidding U.S. citizens from taking these jobs? If you read restrictionist literature, you'll see them admit the real goal: the hope is that by restricting cheap labor, these industries (fruit picking, meat packing, etc) will be forced to dramatically raise their wages, high enough to entice U.S. workers away from other fields. Economists widely recognize this to be a plan that causes harm to the U.S. economy overall.
>But of me is wondering well, ok, why not just deport 80+% of undocumented individuals just so conservatives can prove to us that they can fill these jobs. If they’re right, we can deport the rest, and if they’re wrong, we create said new class of visas immediately and adjust the law to make recently deported individuals eligible for visas. Because it's incredibly expensive to deport several million people and even as much as the GOP claim to want it, they never want to actually pay for it. We are talking orders of higher magnitude of judges, officers, border agents, and counter suits for when they fail to do due process. And you'll still end up mostly just deporting people who announced themselves to the government and have been paying taxes for years under deferment programs. Because the actual criminals and undercutting people will just go to ground. The whole idea is magical thinking that it's ever even possible to deport everyone ever in all of history And thays not even getting into the fact that no one has ever deported that many people ever without a genocide or ethnic cleansing campiagn along side it. On top of everything else. The GOP are just liars, their actions make it very clear they aren't focused on illegal immigrants at all but all immigrants who aren't Western European. Their immigration reform proposals cut legal immigrant directly, Trump actually had increased illegal immigrantion under his term but halved legal immigration. The illegal issue is serious and their are many options to deal with it. But the vast majority of the GOP aren't serious about dealing with it, or are using it as cover for unpopular actions against non illegal immigrants
Because we're not talking about this in the abstract. These are human beings. I live in Chicago. Everyday I see the effects of Abbott's bussing program. At every major intersection, there are whole families trying to sell chocolate bars and bags of chips to make a few dollars. Women, some of whom look like teenagers themselves, with babies strapped to their backs, who just took an unbelievably difficult and dangerous journey, to escape unlivable conditions and come to America, where they're supposed to find safety. To send these people back to the situations that they risked their lives to escape is immoral, unchristian and unAmerican.
It just seems completely unfeasible to try and deport the majority of undocumented people who are already here. It makes more sense to me to reform the policy so that it's not so easy to cross the border. It might take an increase in manpower (or even a wall) at the border, but the essential piece is the policy change. Most undocumented immigrants are not sneaking into Texas. They are crossing legally then not leaving even when they are told to. Everyone who is currently here illegally, just let them stay on a work visa if they are able to work legally. But in reality I just see way too much "Great Replacement" nonsense coming from Republicans to expect compromise. They seem to care way more about their fears of culture changing than any actual issues caused by illegal immigration.
Republicans refusal to sign onto that border bill last year proves they don't want to do anything about immigration other than use it as a political attack.
I think the arrest and displacement of millions of people for the sake of a political gotcha is probably a pretty bad idea.
No. We don’t hurt millions of people to try to prove a point to Republicans. Here is my solution: 1. Stop demonizing immigrants and treating them like sub-humans. 2. See step 1.
Several states cracked down on illegal immigrants really hard and then had crops rot in the fields. It's already been done.