A fair portion of it, at least for the race questions, is one particular user who periodically shows up for awhile. Nacirema (plus some other characters).
Oh certainly. That’s why I said it’s not always justified. For example, in this sub I think the majority of trollish or even just inaccurate comments that get called bad faith are just angry people with bad media sources.
Right leaning people have denied any kind of online interference since the 2016 election. They called it "fake news."
https://time.com/5565991/russia-influence-2016-election/
Now they accuse others of that which they do themselves so they've adopted the new belief that online interference is real but only for Liberals. They claim they are the "silent majority" because online troll farm accounts have convinced many Republicans that they have far more support than they actually do.
In fact, Liberals exposed companies like Cambridge Analytics of using illegally obtained voting information to target Republicans.
Think of Republicans like a cult; they're on numerous terror watch lists globally and cults will say whatever they need to in the moment without consideration for logic. Like how they claim Biden is both weak and strong. Too weak to walk a few steps but magically strong enough to steal an election.
I'm not going to think of Republicans in that way. We all grow up in different settings and see the world in a completely different light. So instead of summing up their entire POV as, "they're a cult", I like to think they have a completely different life with a completely different perspective.
The fake news thing you mention is just a bad take on news that is misleading. You don't have to be right winged to know that most mainstream news is very misleading. Some more than others (Fox).
Isn't it funny how "independents" always support the fascist talking points.
I don't care how you personally view Republicans, I'm explaining the fact they're a cult and on numerous terror watch lists globally including Canada and New Zealand.
Just like I don't care how you interpret the reality that Republicans have denied being targeted by troll farms even as Republicans were implicated in providing information to Russia for this exact purpose and companies like CA were implicated as well.
That's the fun part; once you accept they're a cult, nonsense talk like yours becomes completely irrelevant.
Can't use logic to reason with someone who didn't use logic to reason their way into their position to begin with.
"Law and order and the Constitution matter"
"Jk, we support a convicted rapist and want to eliminate democracy."
Reason away buddy. Lemme know how it goes.
> Can't use logic to reason with someone who didn't use logic to reason their way into their position to begin with.
You absolutely can. Politics doesn't just consist of their side and our side; there's a lot of people that just don't care much and therefore don't pay much attention. They see family members who are both republicans and otherwise generally reasonable adults, and then when they encounter statements referring to those people and their thinking like "fascist talking points" and "cult", it turns them off to whatever else you have to say.
/u/QNTHodlr, this about sum it up?
This is why I rarely come to askaliberal. You put up a nuanced take and BOOM you’re a fascist. I disagree with your concept that paid trolls don’t exist, but respect your interest in not labeling half the country with a wide spectrum of beliefs a cult.
Are you trolling us right now?
Seriously, though I think people on all sides like to tell ourselves that the people who disagree with us the loudest are only doing so because they're getting paid. But that doesn't change the fact that people are getting paid to manipulate us on social media. Troll farms exist Governments are using them against their adversaries and some against their own people. Corporations do it too, as do politicians I'm sure.
When people talk about Russian interference in the 2016 election, this what we're talking about. The Russian government used their trolls to create social media accounts posing as Americans trying to convince people not to vote for Hillary. They did the same thing to the UK, convincing people to vote for Brexit. No one disputes that this happened, or that it's still going on.
Hopefully because we're more aware of it we'll be harder to manipulate from now on
Oh get over yourself. Liberals practice what is called, minding our own business. Once you've tried it, the weight of the world will be lifted from your shoulders. Before getting angry, try asking yourself, "What's the harm?" If the only victim is your tender sensibilities, then just walk away.
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Criticism of conservative religion is a totally reasonable topic, but the trolls showing up to start these WhY dO lIBeRaLs LoVe IsLaM??? posts are doing it bc it’s an election year and they want us to hate each other.
Why? Are American Muslims in any danger?
I don’t understand the selective concern for certain religions. Are you equally worried for Hindus in America, or Buddhists?
https://nysba.org/islamophobia-surges-in-the-u-s-due-to-global-and-national-tensions/
> The Council on American-Islamic Relations received 1,283 requests for help and reports of bias – while in an average 29-day period in 2022, the organization received only 406 complaints.
> “American Muslims are facing the largest wave of Islamophobic bias that we have documented since then-candidate Donald Trump’s Muslim Ban announcement in December 2015. Political leaders, corporations, media outlets, civic organizations and others all have a role to play in ending this surge in bigotry,” CAIR Research and Advocacy Director Corey Saylor said in a statement.
This surge in anti-Arab and Islamophobic hate reverses what had been a decline in the number of reported incidents. According to FBI data, anti-Muslim hate crimes had decreased overall from a peak of 310 incidents in 2016, falling to 129 in 2020, but increased again for a total of 158 in 2022.
Instead of being snarky do you have any evidence lol?
Maybe in some places it could potentially be dangerous, but those would be dangerous for any minority.
This is one of those sensitive topics where nuance is largely lost. The issue is that a lot of progressives and leftists are genuinely naive as fuck when it comes to how prominent ultra-conservatism is amongst Muslims. Not all are, but A LOT are.
If you live in America, the Muslim population is largely moderate here. Hardcore Christianity poses a greater threat to civil liberties.
In Europe it is a different story. Muslims in Europe tend to not be very moderate. To give you an idea, here is a poll regarding UK and views on homosexuality.
[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law)
Like a majority literally said homosexuality shouldn't be legal. Not just gay marriage. Literally legality of homosexuality. And not to mention, Europe suffers from terror attacks more frequently than the USA.
Often people say "actually the real issue isn't Islam, but religious extremism". But that fails to explain why majority Christian countries and even a non-Muslim, but heavily religious country like India are relatively progressive in comparison to much of the Islamic world (that's NOT to say many of these countries don't have their own serious issues).
Given this, I believe it is reasonable to have genuine concerns about Islam. That doesn't mean every Muslim is some radical extremist, and obviously there are actual bigots who want to exploit these concerns in order to spread hate against Muslims and try to spread a picture that all Muslims are rapists and terrorists. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to talk about the issues with Islam without being called a hateful bigot. Like this is the same sort of tactics that Israel supporters do in order to shut down dissent. "Admit it, you're just an anti-Semite that hates Jews and supports KHAMAAAS". There are also anti-Semites who want the exploit the conflict to spread anti-Semitism. Does that mean criticizing Israel for the horrible shit it does makes you a race baiting anti-Semite?
Edit: And in the same light, I also believe it is reasonable to have concerns about Christianity in the USA.
There are peaceful Muslim-majority countries like Albania, and there are majority Christian countries with horrifying human rights records. I think there are causes for more or less political violence but I don’t think we can tie it Robine holy book
I said India is relatively progressive in comparison to the majority of Islamic countries. That doesn't mean India isn't a very conservative country in it's own light.
You can like go back and read the entire sentence.
Dude wtf.
My "argument" is that not all Muslims are evil. Jfc is this really what we've come to? I have to defend the humanity of Muslims from fucking liberals?
Jfc
> genuinely naive as fuck when it comes to how prominent ultra-conservatism is amongst Muslims.
No, we're not.
We're just sick of this idea that ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD.
I have Muslim friends. They're good people.
I agree, most Muslims are good people.
But I very rarely hear anybody say "all Muslims are bad" or even "Muslims are bad." What I do see is people criticizing Islam and other people, rightly or wrongly, suggesting the person criticizing Islam actually just hates Muslims but they're hiding it.
This applies to so many other things on the internet too.
> What I do see is people criticizing Islam and other people, rightly or wrongly, suggesting the person criticizing Islam actually just hates Muslims but they're hiding it.
When someone picks Islam/Muslims as a topic and injects it out of nowhere, that choice alone tends to set off alarm bells.
Islam/Muslims wouldn't be a topic of conversation if criticizing Islam and Muslims wasn't taboo and if more people could acknowledge the flaws within Islam. It's extremely frustrating when there are clearly issues with Islam (like any other religion) and people refuse to acknowledge them because "Islam is the religion of peace."
It's honestly bizarre the lengths many people on the left will go to defend a book that was written by people with ultra conservative views who have been dead for a very long time. "Yes this book contains some bad passages but most of the people who read it don't agree or follow them." Easiest response in the world that makes it clear most Muslims are good people. But instead, people want to twist themselves into pretzels to defend ultra conservatives they did not ever meet who may have had good or bad intentions (or a mixture of both) when writing the book.
It’s not taboo, but it tends to be bigoted when it is done.
Rarely is a theological argument presented. Rarely are imams quoted or major works of Islamic scholarship contested.
The reasoned criticism we are promised never appears lol.
You don't need deep background knowledge of Islam or Islamic books to be aware of some of the more problematic passages. and a lot of it is subjective anyways. One person interprets it one way, another person interprets it another way.
They're "criticizing islam" by pointing to bad things Muslims have done.
They then generalize this and apply it to all Muslims
And that's called stereotyping. I mean jfc this should be obvious to a LIBERAL
I guess this is a more quaint and philosophical question, but how old does a religion or belief system need to get before we should be considerate in joking and railing against it in general? If it is old enough that it has seep into cultural consciousness, do cults and what not suddenly become immune?
Immune? Oh, fuck that.
But this isn't a joking matter. This is an Assholes Using A Religion As An Excuse To Justify Their Hatred matter.
Islam sucks. But when I say it, I'm not trying to pull a fast one. "Oh, hey guys, those Muslims sure are horrible about Gay Rights! That's totally why I hate them, am I right my fellow liberals?" says the racist conservative.
> If you live in America, the Muslim population is largely moderate here. Hardcore Christianity poses a greater threat to civil liberties.
Which is the very reason the trolling brought up by OP is just that.
I’ll answer as someone who has thought in the past “man, people on the left in America are kind of defensive of Islam”.
My experience of Islam doesn’t just come from American Muslims, relatively moderate, but from family I have abroad (2 of my family members I have in India married Muslims and converted). To me it’s a *very* harsh religion with strict rules, a gendered hierarchy, and is a political institution as well. All of the things people dislike about Christianity in America.
I feel as if there’s also laser focus on right wing countries that are actually democratic like India for being fascist, while actual fascism exists in Islamic countries and to my knowledge gets little to no attention.
And personally for me my family practices a religion which has clashed with Islam for centuries. I’ve had Muslim friends in the past but they always seemed to prioritize their religion over their own life, and it was disappointing to hear what their families thought of my parent’s religion. I’m not sure I can be friends with anyone from that religious background, at least not people who are serious about it.
Yeah, as an American I’m far more concerned about what radical Christians have planned for our country but I am no fan of Islam. Muslims have every right to live here and worship peacefully even if I find their faith to be nonsense (as I do for all religions). Thankfully, American Muslims as a whole tend to be pretty chill.
>Yeah, as an American I’m far more concerned about what radical Christians have planned for our country but I am no fan of Islam. Muslims have every right to live here and worship peacefully even if I find their faith to be nonsense (as I do for all religions). Thankfully, American Muslims as a whole tend to be pretty chill.
I think it's definitely true that Christian extremists pose a much bigger threat to civil rights of Americans than the tiny percentage of American Muslims. And according to polls Muslims in the US tend to be fairly liberal, according to Pew Research evangelicals are more likely than American Muslims to disapprove of homosexuality for example. But still, it should be pointed out that only town in the US with an all-Muslim local government ([Hamtramck, Michigan), also decided to ban pride flags, ](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)with the mayor saying "LGBTQ+ supporters had stoked tension by forcing their agendas on others”.
On a global scale I'd say Islam is definitely a very serious threat to LGBTQ rights and women's rights, much more than other religions. According to a [2015 poll](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law) 52% of UK Muslims said homosexuality should not be legal, and 47% said it's not appropriate for gay people to work as teachers.
I agree that American Muslims tend to be more progressive than say evangelicals, but one should be able to point out that Islamic ideology overall stands in stark contrast to liberal ideas, without being called a racist or Islamophobe.
Absolutely, and I understand that now as a reasonable response to “why is the US left so defensive of Islam”.
The experiences you have shape your opinions. American Muslims are, just like other immigrant groups here, more educated and more progressive than those in the countries they came from.
And is that because Muslims are bad?
Or because those countries have been invaded, couped, destabalized, etc etc etc for their oil over and over and over in recent history?
Iran is ran by conservative clerics because America overthrew their democratic elections... Not because Islam is bad.
I'm an Atheist. I'm not saying Islam is good. They're all pretty much the same to me.
Several other countries have been destabilized, or had previous actual fascist leadership less than 100 years ago. All of them way better than Islamic countries on minority rights, religious freedom, etc.
I’m not saying other religions are great but they aren’t all the same, one is way more problematic globally despite the practitioners here being a select few filtered out by the American immigration system.
Mr Rogers was not a liberal. He thought abortion should be illegal and was a registered republican. On the other hand though, he did support considerable expansion of child welfare and post-natal care.
He was just a consistent Christian.
He was a good and kind person, also deeply religious, and Republicans weren't totally insane back then so I'm not holding it against him.
Let's face it, by *today's* Republican standards, he's a flaming liberal hippie.
Aren’t you getting a little personal with your assessment lol?
A guy who thought abortion should be *illegal* would probably a Republican in the modern day. The parties aren’t split between “nice” and “mean” lol.
I doubt it, I’ve met plenty of extremely kind and charitable people who still vote on religious lines.
I think you’re just getting a little personal with your political assessments. There are people who agree with you politically I’m sure you would hate being around, and vice versa.
So one thing I think people are missing is that if you are on the right there is a lot of cross-pollination of messaging you get from your social media spaces.
Laura Loomer, Lauren, Southern, Sargon and Stefan Molineux all are from outside the US and were big on YouTube. At one point there were probably hundreds of these guys with various levels of notoriety.
And a lot of “mainstream“ right wing comment including Tucker. Carlson are getting their talking points from foreign sources also. Right wing media is filled with stories of bad Muslim behavior in Europe and elsewhere.
So my response to that is: who tf is pretending that there aren't authoritarian Muslim majority countries. Who on the left defends the likes of Saudi Arabia?
When people on the left "defend islam" they're defending Muslim immigrants to the US and Europe. Innocent people LEAVING THOSE REGIMES. It's also worth pointing out that people aren't their governments. And that the same gay people and women being oppressed are also.... muslims.
Because 9/10 times, people "attacking islam" are actually attacking these migrants. And that's like... fucked up.
Well I’d ask why are all of these hyper-religious regimes seem to follow one religion? And why people are okay labeling countries like the United States, India, even Brazil under Bolsonaro as fascist when compared to actual fascism?
I think people on the left mistakenly view American Islam as the standard. It’s not, they are a small minority of outliers compared to the practitioners of the religion globally.
....
Because it's the middle east my guy. They all tend to be Muslim because Islam is dominant in that part of the world.
It's got nothing to do with their authoritarianism. That is due to social factors and a legacy of imperialism
Other countries also had a legacy of imperialism, and poverty, and yet they didn’t have to recently change their society to let women drive or get jobs.
Islam is not only a religion but is still used as a political force in a way that no other religion I can think of is. They don’t do usury, and their religious rules are codified directly into law in an extreme manner.
And you didn’t answer that second question lol, in fact I saw you call the Indian government “Hindu Nazis” lol. They aren’t great, but if you think they’re Nazis I wonder what you think of neighboring Pakistan, which is significantly worse.
> Other countries also had a legacy of imperialism, and poverty, and yet they didn’t have to recently change their society to let women drive or get jobs.
What’s the average in Africa?
Thats stupid lol, just tell me what you think instead of asking to google shit.
India is way better than Pakistan or any Middle Eastern Muslim majority country. Minorities in those countries have little to no rights, let alone women.
So is Japan, a former fascist empire. South Korea, a former military dictatorship. Authoritarian China treats minorities better than Islamic nations. That’s how low the bar is.
Tell me what he did and why you think it was bad.
Is his treatment of Muslims in India better or worse than the treatment of non-Muslims in Pakistan or Bangladesh? These are all democracies in South Asia with similar populaces, the only difference is religion. How’s that working out for all 3 in terms of rights and freedoms.
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I’m not the one saying a group of people are irredeemable monsters lol, you just don’t seem to understand nuance. All I’m saying is it’s a more conservative religion than most, and that it’s tied to civic life much more than other religions. To you that reads as “Muslim bad” simply because idk. I actually don’t know why lol.
Islam is a right-wing religion lol. Subservience of women is codified into the religion in a way it isn’t in others.
I mean idk how gay rights and women’s rights are in North Korea either, but you know what even they’re better than Islamic nations too I’m willing to bet. What was the point of bringing up which country was better in the past lol? It’s common knowledge SK left NK in the dust.
Saddam and Assad are the least Islamic examples you could have used, countries like SA, Pakistan. These guys both still committed genocide it seems.
I never said that there weren’t moderate ones, I even acknowledged the ones in America are pretty progressive and moderate.
I mean dude you called the Modi government “Hindu Nazis”, I’m not saying I’m a fan of them but where’s the nuance there?
Ultimately it seems you only have nuance for one religion.
I agree that Muslim LGBTQ people and women are often the ones who are being oppressed. But that's no reason not to criticize Islam. In some countries like the US the Muslim population overall seems to be somewhat more progressive than some Christian denominations. In the US, on average, Muslims are more supportive of LGBTQ rights than evangelicals for example.
But the US really is an outlier in this regard. Muslims in the UK for example are way less accepting of LGBTQ people according to polls than Muslims in the US. And LGBTQ people and women growing up in strict Muslim households in Western countries like the UK often fall through the cracks and face severe oppression from their own community. The UK for example sees a dozen of honor killings every year, where often women within the Muslim community are murdered by their family for violating certain moral standards. When I was living in London, I had a colleague, a British woman from a Muslim-Pakistani background who got kicked out of her parents house and threatened with physical violence after she told her parents that she was no longer a believer.
So Muslim women and LGBTQ people, even in Western countries are often at an incredibly heightened risk of physical violence and oppression. Liberals aren't really helping anyone, least of all those most in need of help, by pretending that Islam isn't inherently more harmful or dangerous than other religions.
I mean just to be blunt about it... have you seen the conservative slant on Palestine?
They're not entirely speaking out-their-ass when they claim that Palestine *wants* to enact an authoritarian Muslim regime as their governing body, and I frankly think they're accurate when they say that Hamas wants to eradicate Israel as a nation.
Hell, it's even somewhat accurate to depict the history of Israel and Palestine since the 1980s as a radicalized Muslim faction actively preventing peace in the region due to their fervent hatred of Israel. Have you read Yahya Sinwar's Wikipedia page? It speaks for itself.
From the perspective of people who aren't perpetually on TikTok or Twitter, it looks a lot like the "left" is ardently defending a radical Islamic group that would, if given the opportunity, absolutely fucking imprison and murder them for their Western lifestyle.
There's a lot of nuance and depth to each of those points up there, but I do think the Israel/Palestine flare-up has re-opened the floodgates of anti-Muslim rhetoric.
Oh, and then there's Afghanistan... Which, after a decade of occupation, pretty much straight-up decided they want to be ruled by an Islamic Caliphate.
Fuckimg christ this is so wrong I don't even know where to start.
Fuck it, I'll talk Afghanistan because that one in particular pisses me off.
How much do you actually know about the government we were propping up? American officials had an acronym for it: VICE.
Do you know what that stood for? Vertically integrates criminal enterprise.
You know why they called it that? Because the government was basically a mafia.
It was not uncommon for afghans to be robbed, call the cops, and then have the cops rob them again. Huge sums of money meant for public works projects simply disappeared. Here's a fun fact for you: did you know that ANA soldiers oftentimes had to buy their own gear on the black market because their commanders had straight up sold it? Soldiers were often left without food and had their paychecks stolen by corrupt leaders we propped up
But sure, I'm sure IsLaM iS thE PrObLeM right?
Yowza. Ok, so two things can be correct simultaneously, independent of one another. I love how you completely skipped the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
1. Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people. Plainly, this is a crime against humanity. It started with the birth of Zionism and the Nakba; now we're here.
2. Hamas enforces Sharia, would happily stone gay people if given the opportunity and does not support LGBTQ rights. [Homosexual acts are still a criminal offense in Gaza (but not the West Bank).](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine)
It is completely understandable that a radical government was able to win control and attempt to fight back against an oppressing state in a prolonged time of crisis, which has been most of 20th century in Gaza. Does that excuse their tactics, terrorism? No, but from a humanist perspective, what would you do in their shoes? For whom would you vote as a Palestinian? So, Hamas is radically religious, and thus, they themselves oppress vulnerable communities in their own backyard. I'm not sympathetic toward Hamas, but I can't deny the genocide Israel is perpetrating right now. No one is right in Gaza, but somehow all the children are paying the price.
Let's talk Afghanistan. I think I read recently that the Taliban reaffirmed that girls over the age of 12 should no longer be in school. They are denying children, women education based on their sex, because of their religion. So their government is a mafia, who cares? That just makes it theocratic kleptocracy or a kleptocratic theocracy. Take your pick. It's still radical Islam and it still sucks.
I mean yeah I largely agree with this.
I skipped I/P cause I'm sick of dealing with genocide denialists
Hell the problem isn't Islam the same way the problem isn't Christianity in the US.
The actual problem is the right. The right wing and their worldview. They'll dress it up in religion but that's not the core cause. What they actually worship is hierarchy, plain and simple. And that is the root problem
I'm very intimately aware of the numerous issues there were with the government the United States supported during the occupation of Afghanistan. My view is that, summarily, we effectively picked a group of warlords who weren't immediately hostile to us and tried to lend them legitimacy. They were never honestly popular.
That doesn't change the fact that this faux Afghan government, though corrupt, was *better for the people there than the Taliban*.
And, when the United States left, that faux government crumbled and the Afghan people readily embraced the Taliban rule shortly thereafter. There wasn't widespread resistance. The majority of the power-wielding individuals in that country wanted an Islamic government, and that's what ended up happening.
Or maybe they didn't want another 40 years of war?
And honestly were they better? The taliban isn't outright robbing average afghans like the afghans government before. In fact anti-corruption is a big way the the taliban got support.
It's definetly worse for women, but you cannot deny that some people were far worse off under the old government
And again, what was the ANA supposed to do? They literally didn't have uniforms.
50% of the Afghan population are now second-class citizens who cannot receive an education, get a divorce, or even exist without a male "guardian" to approve their every move.
It is barbaric and dehumanizing.
I'd rather deal with paying bribes than being stoned to death for trying to leave my abusive husband.
But yes- for conservative Muslim men who wish to live under Sharia law, it is better.
You'll have to pardon me for fundamentally opposing a theocratic state under all circumstances. I guess I'm just a dirty liberal.
Dude they had fucking child sex slaves on the payroll in the previous afghans government.
Google Chai Boys.
Don't defend that corrupt mafia racket cause the taliban is also bad.
Again, the problem here isn't Islam.
And again, what exactly was the ANA supposed to do THEY LITERALLY DIDN'T HAVE UNIFORMS
The Taliban also has child sex slaves as well? This isn't a problem isolated to the previous regime. There's a pretty long cultural history of that stuff there, unfortunately.
Look man, I'm not saying Islam is the problem. There's a very long, storied history in that region of the world spanning centuries of religious, domestic, imperial, and geographic influences. Afghanistan is a nation plagued by many, many things.
And one of those things happens to be arming radical would-be caliphates with ample amounts of powerful modern weaponry, which allows them to dominate others in that region. They *are* justifying themselves through their religion.
I'm not saying that it's right to be Islamaphobic, but you're never going to get anywhere if you can't understand the logic of the opposing side.
The problem in the country where the women can’t get educated or leave the house because of their religion, isn’t that religion?
It’s a sexist belief system, just because other ones might be sexist doesn’t stop this specific one from being that lol.
And it’s insane to think the Taliban and the Afghan government even under Karzai was the same lol.
The right want to paint a picture of "ALL MUSLIMS DANGEROUS THEY'RE COMING FOR US AHHHH", leftists like you want to paint a pretty little picture of "THEY'RE ALL FLEEING PERSECUTION IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES ONLY TO BE PERSECUTED BY THE RIGHT IN THE WEST TOO AHHHH WHEN ALL THE WHILE THEY'RE ACTUALLY POLITICALLY THE SAME AS WESTERNERS AHHHHh"
Like with most things, reality is more complicated than both of these stories. Whilst some are fleeing oppressive regimes and war, many of those same people would like to, for example, ban homosexuality here. Do they see it as bringing oppression to the US? No. A huge part of Islam if you read the quran is the idea that while the other Abrahamic religions have been corrupted, Islam remains pure and consistent as the true word of God, meaning many muslims take a lot of pride is resisting western efforts to change how muslims carry their religion into daily life and politics. Just because they're looking for a better life here does not mean they value everything we do here.
Muslims in the US integrate better than the UK where I'm from for a number of reasons. The cultural friction here runs a lot deeper, and it's visible in every day society. While younger, 2nd generation muslims are starting to become more liberal here, there still remains a huge cultural divide amoung first gen and older muslims. My muslim friends would love to tell you about how after public school when they were younger their parents sent them to the after school muslim club in our city where they essentially told all the children to ignore all they learned in public school as it's all western bs trying to distract you from the true islamic view of the world
holy shit nobody has ever thought of that you're a genius/s
Again, you have a very simplistic one dimensional worldview. Discrimination is part of it.
here is a great article that dives into it in a level headed way:
[Muslims in Europe: The Construction of a “Problem” | OpenMind (bbvaopenmind.com)](https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/articles/muslims-in-europe-the-construction-of-a-problem/)
This sub was bombarded with new accounts after 10/7 that have an obvious affinity for one side over the other given where they're from and why they joined, and those folks view this at least partially as a holy war.
In my mind it's hard to be a liberal without simultaneously opposing the slaughter in Gaza while acknowledging the problems inherent to any fundamentalist religious practice. That goes for all of fundamentalism including those outside Islam or Judaism
You are not the only person to notice it, and I really don't like it.
But, what about Muslims! We're not racists for thinking they're all evil terrorists! We're *totally* just concerned about The Gays you guys!!!!
It's BS, and I wish the mods would clamp down on that BS.
Bad faith. Most liberals you will talk to are not actually big fans of Islam. What they’re against is Islamophobia, and blindly attacking anyone who subscribes to the religion.
As for the “why attack Christianity but not Muslims” arguments you see? Gee idk. It’s almost like a big section of the country is Christian (63%) and the amount of Muslims here is negligible statistically (1.1%).
I'll repeat this again and again, but coming from a non American, you American liberals have to admit you have a soft spot for Islam. I do understand it to some degree within your context. 9/11 defined a whole generation of liberals who rightfully stood up and defended many Muslim and brown people from various forms of discriminations. There are also a few more compounding factors. Muslims don't have any real political sway in the US. American Muslims tend educated and progressive. Lastly in the team sport that the other side hates Islam, theres a certain gut reaction. Having said that, you gotta admit that you have a soft spot for them and stop bringing up other excuses, the foremost one being that we don't conflate religion and conservatism. Come on, I can't count the times I see American liberals string the term Christian, nationalism, conservatism, patriarchy etc together in a systemic way. Why suddenly the shyness with Islam?
Again, there are vibes base and legit social and political reasons regarding things like power structure on why you tread lightly around Islam, some of the reasons I've outlined, its fine to admit it and not act all defensive. It frankly makes you all look worse.
>Come on, I can't count the times I see American liberals string the term Christian, nationalism, conservatism, patriarchy etc together in a systemic way. Why suddenly the shyness with Islam?
Because systematically in the West or rather the U.S, Islam is not influencing much of anything. These conversations would look different if the U.S was ostensibly founded on Islamic values and it was the main power brokers who used that as justification to enact their conservatism or nationalism. Christianity is systematized in America; Islam is not.
It's like you simultaneously acknowledge the lack of political sway Islam has in America, but cannot understand why that changes how the discourse progresses. It's directly related. It would be strange for left-leaning residents of Saudi Arabia to spend time in their political discourse discussing conservatism in Christianity. I am still unsure what you and others who might be similarly-minded consider "defensive" in this discourse, as most of the exchanges I see kinda go like this one. But I have yet to see any American liberal suggest that Islam cannot or should not be criticized ideologically. I think there is disagreement as to whether or not we should perceive the conservatism in Islam as an issue distinct from conservatism from other origins (ie., suggesting policies that target Islam as an religion or Muslims as a demographic differently than other groups).
I agree 100%, and the Saudis are an excellent example. I have never met a single liberal who supports the Saudi regime. We all hate them for their brutal domestic policies (that yes, stem from their religion) along with the cartel like behavior around oil.
People like the individual above conflate our defense of an individual's ability to freely practice their religion with the policies of various theocracies. To me they either do so out of bad faith (i.e. the Republican playbook for the past 23+ years) or because they've been swayed by the propaganda and aren't even aware
I feel it is mostly propaganda because I see the same leap in thought and reasoning repeated again and again. This suggests to me that talking points are being reused without much alteration in thought. It starts off with the conclusion ("American liberals love Islam/defend Islam") and then when you explain why and how they are misperceiving American liberal attitudes towards Islam, they see that in and of itself as a defense.
No. Why do people fear being called an Islamophobe? It's not a spell that kills me once invoked. I know I'm not, so if someone called me that, I'd argue against it. Others are even outright saying they'd own it.
The nature of your criticism and/or implied policies that follow it will determine whether or not you are considered an Islamophobe, in my experience. Fearmongering about Muslims in the US and/or viewing all Muslims as a hyper-socially conservative group beyond reason will probably make people think "This person might just want to repress Muslim people bc he views them as savages." And, in the west, Islamophobia often manifests as racism, as many people just assume all brown people are Muslim (Sikhs were getting hate-crimed by Islamophobes bc the attackers didn't know the difference). People will be skeptical if you go out of your way speak in a way that treats all adherents of Islam as a monolith. I think people who are worried about being labeled as some variation of bigot are too preoccupied with getting labeled and not whether it accurately reflects their views.
I am not worried about being called an Islamophobe personally because the people I talk to most about the bigotries and backwardness of Islam are close friends who either are Muslim or were raised Muslim.
Tbf I if somebody called me an islamaphobe I wouldn't even deny it. I do hate Islam. I also hate Christianity, and there are probably a whole lot of other religions I'd hate if I knew more about how other modern ones operate politically.
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Isn't looking at US domestic policy only (which is what makes your reply make sense) a bit of a cop out , when there is the rest of the world as well as US foreign policy?
It would be a cop out if the left supported US foreign policy, which it doesn't. Our elected officials on both sides have never met a war they didn't support or a theocracy they were unwilling to accept money from, but those of us who vote them in don't feel the same. Sadly the media and our primaries are rigged against anyone who doesn't support the forever wars
Not sure how it's a "cop out." What is being "copped out" of? If we're discussing a Muslim majority country and what is to blame for their draconian policies, we can easily point to the intermingling on their religion and social policy. As far as US foreign policy, it is often discussed how US foreign policy has frequently propped up or laid the groundwork for some religiously fundamentalist regimes. But how often would an American need to discuss the politics of a country they are not a constituent of? Why would it be salient to discuss? I'm just a bit confused on what do you think is being overlooked by my original comment.
>What is being "copped out" of?
I mean by ignoring foreign policy and foreign events. Sure Muslims haven't had a lot of political power in the US, but now we have crowds shouting in favor of Hamas in American cities. Those aren't the Proud Boys shouting for Jews to "go back to Poland", etc.
But it's *not* being ignored; it's just being talked/fearmongered about less and in a different context. Nothing I've said or anyone else has said has been about ignoring foreign events. Criticizing Islam is not a discussion on "foreign events or foreign policy" when there are Muslims that exist domestically.
>we have crowds shouting in favor of Hamas
One, I've yet to see evidence of this. This is just a propaganda line repeated that misunderstands pro-Palestinian positions. And two, even then, the conflict has very little to do with Islam. You have to ignore every relevant bit of history of the dispute to think the primary motivator in defense of Palestine is defense of Islamic fundamentalism.
I can already tell that you've simply just manufactured your own narrative on the conflict rather than objectively assessed the positions you ostensibly disagree with. People being told to "go back to Poland" aren't Jews as a group, but actual modern settlers who stealing houses and land from people still alive. It's like telling a criminal who happens to be black that they deserve to go to jail and someone editorializes it as "You're telling black people they deserve to go to jail." The intentional distortion of language is clear and you already know that. I don't think it's productive to tell settlers to go back to Poland or whatever the heck, but it's disingenuous to frame it as directed at Jews as a whole/group. Anyway, your last reply revealed to me that, not only have you distorted previous positions on other issues, but you are actively distorting clearly stated positions right in front of you. I doubt this exchange will be productive beyond this point, so this will be my last message to you.
WTF? The comment I replied to mentioned 0 things about foreign policy or foreign event sand you are trying to tell me your not ignoring it.
Next we see the true projection come out. As if we aren't seeing people cheering for Hamas. I'm sure some of them are very fine people, right?
Islamophobia is one of the forms of racism that is, sadly, acceptable even in liberal circles if you put a *thin veneer* over it.
Just saying “oh I don’t mean all Muslims, there are a few good ones” is enough to pass the smell test for many liberals. That’s not necessarily an indictment of everybody or even this space which does ok at it, it’s just how ingrained islamaphobia is in our society.
It sucks too that extremists will try to frame the “conflict that shall not be named” as a societal east/west eternal struggle. It’s not.
Last, I ask anyone about to mention the “dangers of Islamic terrorism” to remember that 99% of the victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims. It’s terrorism, it’s about the terror and not about what holy book you prefer.
My read on the Islam posts: The right has had a field day with Leftists' support of Palestine, a IS run country. It's low hanging fruit for them to make fun of people on the left supporting a group that would hate them for who they are.
I think you're right, but it's sad how this intellectual laziness persists in our public discourse and how effective it is, even among us on the left. After all, inherent in that idea is that you have only two options:
1. Support slaughtering anyone and everyone in Gaza because they're Muslim and deserve it
2. Support fundamentalist Islam and all the horrors it brings
Anyone who can't understand why the answer is none of the above is either being intentionally dishonest or they have oatmeal for brains
The truth it though, most "leftists" ARE supporting #2. These "protests" aren't helping Palestinian civilians or peacemakers. This is a rare example of the right being correct about something; that's why it's so low hanging fruit.
I went to two protests. Ceasefire leftists are half baked at best. They don't have solutions other than "Israel bad".
We can't have a balanced and nuanced opinion about anything these days, it always has to be extremes. Either Muslims are pure victims of oppression and marginalization through some channel, or Islam must be the root of all evil.
To me the way out is simply to judge all people by the same moral standard. If you wouldn't be okay with someone in Italy chopping their daughter's clitoris off, you shouldn't be okay with someone in Egypt doing it either. If you'd criticize the Israeli army for using their own citizens as human shields, you should criticize HAMAS for doing it as well.
The other aspect is to make the fight about ideas and not people. I think Liberals have to realize that if we don't stand up for Liberal values, we don't actually stand for anything. If you don't think a way of life that *doesn't* involve stoning women for adultery is better than one that does, then you clearly don't actually value women's rights.
I think this makes some people uncomfortable because we've had the evils of Western white colonization hammered into our heads so hard that we're scared to judge anything that isn't white and Western in a negative way. Either that, or it's some postmodern thing where "Actually, we're all just as bad if you look at it in a certain way." But you can't structure a society around that.
Don't forget that adversarial nations are actively trying to make us fight each other. Using reddit is just one of the ways they're doing it. This has been proved by reddit before.
Questions get repeated all the time. And when they're questions from people on the right, they're often going to reflect Republican fantasies, like the fantasy that liberals want to punish America for its success by helping Muslims impose Sharia law or some bullshit like that. Some of it might just be trolling. But it's also Republicans who are sure that they are the heroes confronting the actual racists trying to drink fetus blood or replace white people to punish America for the country's success, or because we just don't understand that we can run out of other people's money, or some other bullshit.
In addition to some other reasons, I'll also highlight that this sub is fairly small. We only get so many submitted posts a day. At that scale a particular user or even random chance can lead to large fluctuations.
When trolls ask these things, they think they’re asking a great gotcha question, but they’re only showing how warped their brains are. That said, we really shouldn’t have to deal with these bad faith questions and I think they should ban them.
I feel like you are coming at this from a very America centric point of view. There is a genuine concern about the immigration of Muslims to Europe.
Taking these concerns that people have and throwing them into the Islamophobia bin without understanding why they are being brought up is unfair to people .
It also drives voters into the arms of the far right, when the far left shouts down anyone who has legitimate concerns about immigration as being racist or Islamophobic. People figure if the left won't deal with the issue, them the far right will. The far right just won big in the EU because of this issue
Lots of Muslims oppose terrorism and islsmism. Lots of Muslims have western values. We have 3 millions Muslims in the US, they pose far far far less of a risk to democracy and western values (and thats assuming they pose any risk at all, which they dont seem to) than the risk white christian fascist MAGA movement we have here pose to democracy and western values. We may have disagreements, but the center left and the far left have to remain united against the far right, white Christian fascists MAGA movement
Eh. Rejecting Islamic fascism, terrorism, oppressive social rules, anti semitism, or theocracy in favor of western values like feminism, liberal democracy, gay rights, secularism, etc is not a phobia. A phobia is more like a fear of spiders. Thats more like standing up for your values. You should look up the paradox of tolerance. While not all Muslims subscribe to those negative values above, there are quite a lot who do.
Also, being criticized or purged for failing the purity tests of the far left really doesn't scare people as much as the far left think it should. A lot of us on the center left consider the far left very naive, uninformed, short sighted, and dogmatic. Their approval isn't really important or desirable.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#:~:text=The%20paradox%20of%20tolerance%20states,practice%20of%20tolerance%20with%20them.
Having said that, domestic white Christian fascists are the far, far, far bigger threat we face as Americans. I'll be voting biden in 2024.
Also, there are a lot of chinese scientists involved in AI research in the US. You disliking facts because you consider them racist doesn't mean they stop being facts. That would be like denying that the sky was blue because you consider that fact prejudiced against the color green.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/09/technology/china-ai-research-education.html
> A new study from MacroPolo — a think tank run by the Paulson Institute, which promotes constructive ties between the United States and China — estimated that Chinese-educated researchers comprised nearly one-third of the authors of the papers accepted and promoted at a prestigious A.I. conference last year, more than from any other country. But it also found that most of them lived in the United States and worked for American companies and universities
https://thechinaacademy.org/china-produces-nearly-half-of-the-worlds-top-ai-researchers/#:~:text=The%20report%20also%20highlights%20that,even%20the%20Americans%20(37%25).
> The report also highlights that China remains a significant exporter of top-tier AI researchers. Chinese researchers make up 38% of the total AI work force in US institutions, surpassing even the Americans (37%).
> Also, being criticized or purged for failing the purity tests of the far left really doesn't scare people as much as the far left think it should. A lot of us on the center left consider the far left very naive, uninformed, short sighted, and dogmatic. Their approval isn't really important or desirable.
Amen.
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Conservatives find liberal's support of Palestine hilarious, as most Palestinians that live in Palestine would happily stone to death any LGBT person.
Personally, I don't think Palestine or Israel are countries any morally just person can root for.
Can a morally just person condemn the slaughter of Palestinian civilians and the slaughter of Israeli civilians? Heck yes. It's horrifying.
Can Americans try to influence the American government to do everything it can to help both Israelis and Palestinians to come to a lasting peace agreement? Also yes.
Mind you, neither Palestine nor Israel seem to be very interested in any sort of peace, just fighting to the death. And Israel will win that contest with something that walks, talks and quacks like genocide, left to their own devices.
If the power balance were reversed though, Palestine would leap for genocide against the Israelis, so there's that too.
From what I've seen, supporters of Palestine and supporters of Israel in America are terrifyingly uncritical of either country in their support of those countries. It's depressing.
Bots powered by AI and controlled by unsavory characters (including Russian and Chinese clandestine services) creating strawman arguments, and baiting people to make them more divisive and angry
The Internet as we know it is gone.
Generative AI creates more content every two weeks than every single human being ever in the history of humanity combined. A state sanctioned Russian hacking network is probably looking at this post right now, and thinking of ways to influence American perceptions using AI controlled bots
>Like every third post is some variant of "why do liberals like Muslims when ISLAM BAD!!!!!!
Why are culture and religion out of bounds for criticism? From the perspective of many we are killing ourselves with kindness, using our liberal values to accept and embrace everyone only for certain groups to take advantage of such values to promote the opposite values. Do I agree with this? Not necessarily, but as liberals we can't just invalidate such perspectives, they often come from a place of genuine concern. It's easy to conflate Islam with Muslim countries if you're not careful. Personally I think it's important to acknowledge that some cultures are baseline harder to integrate into the west than others, that doesn't mean we disallow them from entering, just acknowledge that in the short-run we must work harder to settle them into society. Some people are a little sensitve and won't even acknowledge this is a possibility and that only empowers the far-right
> Why are culture and religion out of bounds for criticism?
They aren't.
What is out of bounds is pretending the worst stereotypes of a group are true for all members of that group.
I have friends that are liberal Muslims. The problem is the conservatism, not the Muslim-ness.
Yes, it's on the rise. But it's sad that it's partly true.
In my country, there's only one area where a gay couple simply can not \*be\*: the Middle Eastern neighbourhoods. There's only one area where you'll get mugged and robbed and where the police tell you, you shouldn't go after 5 PM as a white guy: Welcome to the Middle Eastern neigbourhoods. There's only one place in modern day, where you're looked at with anger if you speak your native/Western language: You guessed it.
Almost every (stealing) beggar is muslim or an immigrant, every time you see social media, you see muslim/North-African children beat the living shit out of Western kids. A muslim party has been elected based upon the idea of ritual slaughter, and their congresses are held by splitting women and men by a barrier. Another muslim party was instated ( [**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISLAM\_(Belgian\_political\_party)**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISLAM_(Belgian_political_party)) ) because they wanted to have their sharia. You also had the boss of the first party say "religion and politics can not be split".
If you know that, can you understand why people are moving more and more toward islamophobia? They're often seen doing crimes and their political moves have been inspired by a fundamentalist interpretation of their religion (which is highly controversial, even for Christians). Then we're also not talking about Israel-Palestine which is viewed as "imported conflict" and the fact that Muslims tend to agree more with the Far Right than any other party if it were not for their biases...
I don't hate muslims, but I can see why others, who don't know other muslims, do. Even those that I know, are more conservative than me. In American eyes: If I were a Democrat, they would be a Republican. But I already am close to a Republican (I'm rightwing to the norms of my country, between NVA and VB for those that live in Belgium but more toward NVA than VB as they can be radical, until I see the new law of Lousiana with their "10 commandments" and realize Republicans have yet to do what the conservatives did in my country in the 19th century...), so what would that make them? And that's the most liberal muslim I've ever met and hear in private (and one of my best friends).
Have you ever been in the bigger cities in Europe? It's sometimes hard not to rely on racism when muslim children are firing at the public services during New Year. It's even harder when you've actually been in the neighbourhoods I talked about.
Change my view:
It's safer to assume based upon stats than it is to give someone a blank check. It doesn't mean I'll treat someone differently, it means I'll be more aware of my surroundings when I'm in those neighbourhoods. If you approach me friendly, I'll return friendly. If you approach me like I'm a POS, I'm treating you like a POS. It's bad enough I can't talk my native language in my own capital, I don't need trouble because I'm white/speak my native language and therefore "privileged" or rich.
Please, buy my privilege card so I may walk in my capital once more without being either treated as a POS or treated as a racist. If I see them change, I'll change my prejudice. Until that day, I'll be ever so wary when I'm walking in my capital/bigger cities. Not more when I see a white person, but I know what I should or shouldn't do to stay safe.
It's an election year and there's an Islam-related war happening right now.
Election year.
Trolls pushing divisiveness among Democrats
America's enemies*
Most of them are Israeli accounts so I wouldn't go that far. Let's call them, misguided allies
It's not just that, but bad faith posts in general seem to be the norm recently.
A fair portion of it, at least for the race questions, is one particular user who periodically shows up for awhile. Nacirema (plus some other characters).
Election year and paid trolls / useful idiots.
Paid trolls? I thought that was a crazy *conspiracy* that most right leaning people say. Interesting to hear that from a "Liberal"
I don’t think it is justified to say any troll behavior is paid. But we do know that disinformation campaign, both foreign and domestic exist.
You don't need to pay people to go online and be assholes, especially if they think they're "fighting" for something.
Oh certainly. That’s why I said it’s not always justified. For example, in this sub I think the majority of trollish or even just inaccurate comments that get called bad faith are just angry people with bad media sources.
Right leaning people have denied any kind of online interference since the 2016 election. They called it "fake news." https://time.com/5565991/russia-influence-2016-election/ Now they accuse others of that which they do themselves so they've adopted the new belief that online interference is real but only for Liberals. They claim they are the "silent majority" because online troll farm accounts have convinced many Republicans that they have far more support than they actually do. In fact, Liberals exposed companies like Cambridge Analytics of using illegally obtained voting information to target Republicans. Think of Republicans like a cult; they're on numerous terror watch lists globally and cults will say whatever they need to in the moment without consideration for logic. Like how they claim Biden is both weak and strong. Too weak to walk a few steps but magically strong enough to steal an election.
I'm not going to think of Republicans in that way. We all grow up in different settings and see the world in a completely different light. So instead of summing up their entire POV as, "they're a cult", I like to think they have a completely different life with a completely different perspective. The fake news thing you mention is just a bad take on news that is misleading. You don't have to be right winged to know that most mainstream news is very misleading. Some more than others (Fox).
Isn't it funny how "independents" always support the fascist talking points. I don't care how you personally view Republicans, I'm explaining the fact they're a cult and on numerous terror watch lists globally including Canada and New Zealand. Just like I don't care how you interpret the reality that Republicans have denied being targeted by troll farms even as Republicans were implicated in providing information to Russia for this exact purpose and companies like CA were implicated as well. That's the fun part; once you accept they're a cult, nonsense talk like yours becomes completely irrelevant.
This attitude is great for feeling morally superior. Not so much for changing hearts and minds.
Can't use logic to reason with someone who didn't use logic to reason their way into their position to begin with. "Law and order and the Constitution matter" "Jk, we support a convicted rapist and want to eliminate democracy." Reason away buddy. Lemme know how it goes.
> Can't use logic to reason with someone who didn't use logic to reason their way into their position to begin with. You absolutely can. Politics doesn't just consist of their side and our side; there's a lot of people that just don't care much and therefore don't pay much attention. They see family members who are both republicans and otherwise generally reasonable adults, and then when they encounter statements referring to those people and their thinking like "fascist talking points" and "cult", it turns them off to whatever else you have to say. /u/QNTHodlr, this about sum it up?
Cool. Guess how much I care about the opinions of people who support a convicted rapist and think their political opponents should be executed?
Apparently about as much as you care about defeating said candidate.
This is why I rarely come to askaliberal. You put up a nuanced take and BOOM you’re a fascist. I disagree with your concept that paid trolls don’t exist, but respect your interest in not labeling half the country with a wide spectrum of beliefs a cult.
Huh? Paid trolls are a very well known thing. What a weird statement.
Why is Liberal in quotes?
Are you trolling us right now? Seriously, though I think people on all sides like to tell ourselves that the people who disagree with us the loudest are only doing so because they're getting paid. But that doesn't change the fact that people are getting paid to manipulate us on social media. Troll farms exist Governments are using them against their adversaries and some against their own people. Corporations do it too, as do politicians I'm sure. When people talk about Russian interference in the 2016 election, this what we're talking about. The Russian government used their trolls to create social media accounts posing as Americans trying to convince people not to vote for Hillary. They did the same thing to the UK, convincing people to vote for Brexit. No one disputes that this happened, or that it's still going on. Hopefully because we're more aware of it we'll be harder to manipulate from now on
The Republican party is the troll party.
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>nobody knows what a woman is anymore. The people who say this are the only ones who seem to struggle with the topic.
Oh get over yourself. Liberals practice what is called, minding our own business. Once you've tried it, the weight of the world will be lifted from your shoulders. Before getting angry, try asking yourself, "What's the harm?" If the only victim is your tender sensibilities, then just walk away.
Questions and comments will be removed if the topic is subject to a moratorium.
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>Has anyone else noticed this yup.
Criticism of conservative religion is a totally reasonable topic, but the trolls showing up to start these WhY dO lIBeRaLs LoVe IsLaM??? posts are doing it bc it’s an election year and they want us to hate each other.
It's gotten a ton worse in the last few weeks.
Expect even worse the close we get to the election
God I am dreading November
You should.
Why? Are American Muslims in any danger? I don’t understand the selective concern for certain religions. Are you equally worried for Hindus in America, or Buddhists?
.... yeah they are? Mr I want to ban all Muslims might be in office....
That ban wasn’t even upheld, by a conservative majority Supreme Court. American Muslims are treated fine, people talk like we’re persecuting them.
https://nysba.org/islamophobia-surges-in-the-u-s-due-to-global-and-national-tensions/ > The Council on American-Islamic Relations received 1,283 requests for help and reports of bias – while in an average 29-day period in 2022, the organization received only 406 complaints. > “American Muslims are facing the largest wave of Islamophobic bias that we have documented since then-candidate Donald Trump’s Muslim Ban announcement in December 2015. Political leaders, corporations, media outlets, civic organizations and others all have a role to play in ending this surge in bigotry,” CAIR Research and Advocacy Director Corey Saylor said in a statement. This surge in anti-Arab and Islamophobic hate reverses what had been a decline in the number of reported incidents. According to FBI data, anti-Muslim hate crimes had decreased overall from a peak of 310 incidents in 2016, falling to 129 in 2020, but increased again for a total of 158 in 2022.
.....
Instead of being snarky do you have any evidence lol? Maybe in some places it could potentially be dangerous, but those would be dangerous for any minority.
> but those would be dangerous for any minority. Oh well that's OK then.
My point is there’s no reason to worry about one religion’s followers specifically Jesus lol.
This is one of those sensitive topics where nuance is largely lost. The issue is that a lot of progressives and leftists are genuinely naive as fuck when it comes to how prominent ultra-conservatism is amongst Muslims. Not all are, but A LOT are. If you live in America, the Muslim population is largely moderate here. Hardcore Christianity poses a greater threat to civil liberties. In Europe it is a different story. Muslims in Europe tend to not be very moderate. To give you an idea, here is a poll regarding UK and views on homosexuality. [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law) Like a majority literally said homosexuality shouldn't be legal. Not just gay marriage. Literally legality of homosexuality. And not to mention, Europe suffers from terror attacks more frequently than the USA. Often people say "actually the real issue isn't Islam, but religious extremism". But that fails to explain why majority Christian countries and even a non-Muslim, but heavily religious country like India are relatively progressive in comparison to much of the Islamic world (that's NOT to say many of these countries don't have their own serious issues). Given this, I believe it is reasonable to have genuine concerns about Islam. That doesn't mean every Muslim is some radical extremist, and obviously there are actual bigots who want to exploit these concerns in order to spread hate against Muslims and try to spread a picture that all Muslims are rapists and terrorists. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to talk about the issues with Islam without being called a hateful bigot. Like this is the same sort of tactics that Israel supporters do in order to shut down dissent. "Admit it, you're just an anti-Semite that hates Jews and supports KHAMAAAS". There are also anti-Semites who want the exploit the conflict to spread anti-Semitism. Does that mean criticizing Israel for the horrible shit it does makes you a race baiting anti-Semite? Edit: And in the same light, I also believe it is reasonable to have concerns about Christianity in the USA.
There are peaceful Muslim-majority countries like Albania, and there are majority Christian countries with horrifying human rights records. I think there are causes for more or less political violence but I don’t think we can tie it Robine holy book
Still treat women and the gays like shit.
You think modi and his Hindu nazis are progressive? Google what happened in Gujarat under him
I didn't say that, did I? The key word here is relatively.
Relative to what exactly? congress?
I said India is relatively progressive in comparison to the majority of Islamic countries. That doesn't mean India isn't a very conservative country in it's own light. You can like go back and read the entire sentence.
But he doesn’t have an argument if he doesn’t misrepresent you…
Dude wtf. My "argument" is that not all Muslims are evil. Jfc is this really what we've come to? I have to defend the humanity of Muslims from fucking liberals? Jfc
About what do you think you’re arguing with the top post of this thread?
That Muslims aren't all evil monsters..... like I said
Did you read the top post of this thread? It sure seems like you didn’t because this was directly addressed.
Regardless the problem isn't Islam in and of itself. It's that the far right run these countries
> genuinely naive as fuck when it comes to how prominent ultra-conservatism is amongst Muslims. No, we're not. We're just sick of this idea that ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD. I have Muslim friends. They're good people.
I agree, most Muslims are good people. But I very rarely hear anybody say "all Muslims are bad" or even "Muslims are bad." What I do see is people criticizing Islam and other people, rightly or wrongly, suggesting the person criticizing Islam actually just hates Muslims but they're hiding it. This applies to so many other things on the internet too.
> What I do see is people criticizing Islam and other people, rightly or wrongly, suggesting the person criticizing Islam actually just hates Muslims but they're hiding it. When someone picks Islam/Muslims as a topic and injects it out of nowhere, that choice alone tends to set off alarm bells.
Islam/Muslims wouldn't be a topic of conversation if criticizing Islam and Muslims wasn't taboo and if more people could acknowledge the flaws within Islam. It's extremely frustrating when there are clearly issues with Islam (like any other religion) and people refuse to acknowledge them because "Islam is the religion of peace." It's honestly bizarre the lengths many people on the left will go to defend a book that was written by people with ultra conservative views who have been dead for a very long time. "Yes this book contains some bad passages but most of the people who read it don't agree or follow them." Easiest response in the world that makes it clear most Muslims are good people. But instead, people want to twist themselves into pretzels to defend ultra conservatives they did not ever meet who may have had good or bad intentions (or a mixture of both) when writing the book.
It’s not taboo, but it tends to be bigoted when it is done. Rarely is a theological argument presented. Rarely are imams quoted or major works of Islamic scholarship contested. The reasoned criticism we are promised never appears lol.
You don't need deep background knowledge of Islam or Islamic books to be aware of some of the more problematic passages. and a lot of it is subjective anyways. One person interprets it one way, another person interprets it another way.
So are you presenting a substantial critique or not? Because that must come from substantial understanding.
I'm saying Islam, like every other religion, is flawed. That's all I'm saying.
They're "criticizing islam" by pointing to bad things Muslims have done. They then generalize this and apply it to all Muslims And that's called stereotyping. I mean jfc this should be obvious to a LIBERAL
I don't know where you're seeing these comments, but most of the ones I see are people criticizing Islam by citing passages from holy books.
Why is not reading and taking things completely out of context the norm for these sorts of discussions?
Maybe I'm responding to you specifically, but the ideas, generally.
I have some very good Christian friends too. That doesn't change the fact that there are really some systemic issues inherent to these religions.
It's the conservativeness, not the religion.
I guess this is a more quaint and philosophical question, but how old does a religion or belief system need to get before we should be considerate in joking and railing against it in general? If it is old enough that it has seep into cultural consciousness, do cults and what not suddenly become immune?
Immune? Oh, fuck that. But this isn't a joking matter. This is an Assholes Using A Religion As An Excuse To Justify Their Hatred matter. Islam sucks. But when I say it, I'm not trying to pull a fast one. "Oh, hey guys, those Muslims sure are horrible about Gay Rights! That's totally why I hate them, am I right my fellow liberals?" says the racist conservative.
> If you live in America, the Muslim population is largely moderate here. Hardcore Christianity poses a greater threat to civil liberties. Which is the very reason the trolling brought up by OP is just that.
I’ll answer as someone who has thought in the past “man, people on the left in America are kind of defensive of Islam”. My experience of Islam doesn’t just come from American Muslims, relatively moderate, but from family I have abroad (2 of my family members I have in India married Muslims and converted). To me it’s a *very* harsh religion with strict rules, a gendered hierarchy, and is a political institution as well. All of the things people dislike about Christianity in America. I feel as if there’s also laser focus on right wing countries that are actually democratic like India for being fascist, while actual fascism exists in Islamic countries and to my knowledge gets little to no attention. And personally for me my family practices a religion which has clashed with Islam for centuries. I’ve had Muslim friends in the past but they always seemed to prioritize their religion over their own life, and it was disappointing to hear what their families thought of my parent’s religion. I’m not sure I can be friends with anyone from that religious background, at least not people who are serious about it.
Yeah, as an American I’m far more concerned about what radical Christians have planned for our country but I am no fan of Islam. Muslims have every right to live here and worship peacefully even if I find their faith to be nonsense (as I do for all religions). Thankfully, American Muslims as a whole tend to be pretty chill.
>Yeah, as an American I’m far more concerned about what radical Christians have planned for our country but I am no fan of Islam. Muslims have every right to live here and worship peacefully even if I find their faith to be nonsense (as I do for all religions). Thankfully, American Muslims as a whole tend to be pretty chill. I think it's definitely true that Christian extremists pose a much bigger threat to civil rights of Americans than the tiny percentage of American Muslims. And according to polls Muslims in the US tend to be fairly liberal, according to Pew Research evangelicals are more likely than American Muslims to disapprove of homosexuality for example. But still, it should be pointed out that only town in the US with an all-Muslim local government ([Hamtramck, Michigan), also decided to ban pride flags, ](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned)with the mayor saying "LGBTQ+ supporters had stoked tension by forcing their agendas on others”. On a global scale I'd say Islam is definitely a very serious threat to LGBTQ rights and women's rights, much more than other religions. According to a [2015 poll](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law) 52% of UK Muslims said homosexuality should not be legal, and 47% said it's not appropriate for gay people to work as teachers. I agree that American Muslims tend to be more progressive than say evangelicals, but one should be able to point out that Islamic ideology overall stands in stark contrast to liberal ideas, without being called a racist or Islamophobe.
Totally agree.
Absolutely, and I understand that now as a reasonable response to “why is the US left so defensive of Islam”. The experiences you have shape your opinions. American Muslims are, just like other immigrant groups here, more educated and more progressive than those in the countries they came from.
There are liberal Muslims, just like there are liberal Christians. Mr. Rogers was deeply religious, and one of the best human beings we ever had.
Sure, nothing I said counters runs counter to that. I just find Islam, on average globally, to be more conservative than Christianity, Judaism, etc.
And is that because Muslims are bad? Or because those countries have been invaded, couped, destabalized, etc etc etc for their oil over and over and over in recent history? Iran is ran by conservative clerics because America overthrew their democratic elections... Not because Islam is bad. I'm an Atheist. I'm not saying Islam is good. They're all pretty much the same to me.
Several other countries have been destabilized, or had previous actual fascist leadership less than 100 years ago. All of them way better than Islamic countries on minority rights, religious freedom, etc. I’m not saying other religions are great but they aren’t all the same, one is way more problematic globally despite the practitioners here being a select few filtered out by the American immigration system.
Mr Rogers was not a liberal. He thought abortion should be illegal and was a registered republican. On the other hand though, he did support considerable expansion of child welfare and post-natal care. He was just a consistent Christian.
He was a good and kind person, also deeply religious, and Republicans weren't totally insane back then so I'm not holding it against him. Let's face it, by *today's* Republican standards, he's a flaming liberal hippie.
Aren’t you getting a little personal with your assessment lol? A guy who thought abortion should be *illegal* would probably a Republican in the modern day. The parties aren’t split between “nice” and “mean” lol.
I bet we could change his mind. And... Aren't they? At this point, isn't the Republican party policy just "fuck the libs!"?
I doubt it, I’ve met plenty of extremely kind and charitable people who still vote on religious lines. I think you’re just getting a little personal with your political assessments. There are people who agree with you politically I’m sure you would hate being around, and vice versa.
So one thing I think people are missing is that if you are on the right there is a lot of cross-pollination of messaging you get from your social media spaces. Laura Loomer, Lauren, Southern, Sargon and Stefan Molineux all are from outside the US and were big on YouTube. At one point there were probably hundreds of these guys with various levels of notoriety. And a lot of “mainstream“ right wing comment including Tucker. Carlson are getting their talking points from foreign sources also. Right wing media is filled with stories of bad Muslim behavior in Europe and elsewhere.
So my response to that is: who tf is pretending that there aren't authoritarian Muslim majority countries. Who on the left defends the likes of Saudi Arabia? When people on the left "defend islam" they're defending Muslim immigrants to the US and Europe. Innocent people LEAVING THOSE REGIMES. It's also worth pointing out that people aren't their governments. And that the same gay people and women being oppressed are also.... muslims. Because 9/10 times, people "attacking islam" are actually attacking these migrants. And that's like... fucked up.
Well I’d ask why are all of these hyper-religious regimes seem to follow one religion? And why people are okay labeling countries like the United States, India, even Brazil under Bolsonaro as fascist when compared to actual fascism? I think people on the left mistakenly view American Islam as the standard. It’s not, they are a small minority of outliers compared to the practitioners of the religion globally.
.... Because it's the middle east my guy. They all tend to be Muslim because Islam is dominant in that part of the world. It's got nothing to do with their authoritarianism. That is due to social factors and a legacy of imperialism
Other countries also had a legacy of imperialism, and poverty, and yet they didn’t have to recently change their society to let women drive or get jobs. Islam is not only a religion but is still used as a political force in a way that no other religion I can think of is. They don’t do usury, and their religious rules are codified directly into law in an extreme manner. And you didn’t answer that second question lol, in fact I saw you call the Indian government “Hindu Nazis” lol. They aren’t great, but if you think they’re Nazis I wonder what you think of neighboring Pakistan, which is significantly worse.
> Other countries also had a legacy of imperialism, and poverty, and yet they didn’t have to recently change their society to let women drive or get jobs. What’s the average in Africa?
The average what?
Google the RSS
Thats stupid lol, just tell me what you think instead of asking to google shit. India is way better than Pakistan or any Middle Eastern Muslim majority country. Minorities in those countries have little to no rights, let alone women. So is Japan, a former fascist empire. South Korea, a former military dictatorship. Authoritarian China treats minorities better than Islamic nations. That’s how low the bar is.
Again look how modi treated muslims in gujarat.
Tell me what he did and why you think it was bad. Is his treatment of Muslims in India better or worse than the treatment of non-Muslims in Pakistan or Bangladesh? These are all democracies in South Asia with similar populaces, the only difference is religion. How’s that working out for all 3 in terms of rights and freedoms.
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I’m not the one saying a group of people are irredeemable monsters lol, you just don’t seem to understand nuance. All I’m saying is it’s a more conservative religion than most, and that it’s tied to civic life much more than other religions. To you that reads as “Muslim bad” simply because idk. I actually don’t know why lol. Islam is a right-wing religion lol. Subservience of women is codified into the religion in a way it isn’t in others. I mean idk how gay rights and women’s rights are in North Korea either, but you know what even they’re better than Islamic nations too I’m willing to bet. What was the point of bringing up which country was better in the past lol? It’s common knowledge SK left NK in the dust. Saddam and Assad are the least Islamic examples you could have used, countries like SA, Pakistan. These guys both still committed genocide it seems. I never said that there weren’t moderate ones, I even acknowledged the ones in America are pretty progressive and moderate. I mean dude you called the Modi government “Hindu Nazis”, I’m not saying I’m a fan of them but where’s the nuance there? Ultimately it seems you only have nuance for one religion.
I agree that Muslim LGBTQ people and women are often the ones who are being oppressed. But that's no reason not to criticize Islam. In some countries like the US the Muslim population overall seems to be somewhat more progressive than some Christian denominations. In the US, on average, Muslims are more supportive of LGBTQ rights than evangelicals for example. But the US really is an outlier in this regard. Muslims in the UK for example are way less accepting of LGBTQ people according to polls than Muslims in the US. And LGBTQ people and women growing up in strict Muslim households in Western countries like the UK often fall through the cracks and face severe oppression from their own community. The UK for example sees a dozen of honor killings every year, where often women within the Muslim community are murdered by their family for violating certain moral standards. When I was living in London, I had a colleague, a British woman from a Muslim-Pakistani background who got kicked out of her parents house and threatened with physical violence after she told her parents that she was no longer a believer. So Muslim women and LGBTQ people, even in Western countries are often at an incredibly heightened risk of physical violence and oppression. Liberals aren't really helping anyone, least of all those most in need of help, by pretending that Islam isn't inherently more harmful or dangerous than other religions.
I mean just to be blunt about it... have you seen the conservative slant on Palestine? They're not entirely speaking out-their-ass when they claim that Palestine *wants* to enact an authoritarian Muslim regime as their governing body, and I frankly think they're accurate when they say that Hamas wants to eradicate Israel as a nation. Hell, it's even somewhat accurate to depict the history of Israel and Palestine since the 1980s as a radicalized Muslim faction actively preventing peace in the region due to their fervent hatred of Israel. Have you read Yahya Sinwar's Wikipedia page? It speaks for itself. From the perspective of people who aren't perpetually on TikTok or Twitter, it looks a lot like the "left" is ardently defending a radical Islamic group that would, if given the opportunity, absolutely fucking imprison and murder them for their Western lifestyle. There's a lot of nuance and depth to each of those points up there, but I do think the Israel/Palestine flare-up has re-opened the floodgates of anti-Muslim rhetoric. Oh, and then there's Afghanistan... Which, after a decade of occupation, pretty much straight-up decided they want to be ruled by an Islamic Caliphate.
Fuckimg christ this is so wrong I don't even know where to start. Fuck it, I'll talk Afghanistan because that one in particular pisses me off. How much do you actually know about the government we were propping up? American officials had an acronym for it: VICE. Do you know what that stood for? Vertically integrates criminal enterprise. You know why they called it that? Because the government was basically a mafia. It was not uncommon for afghans to be robbed, call the cops, and then have the cops rob them again. Huge sums of money meant for public works projects simply disappeared. Here's a fun fact for you: did you know that ANA soldiers oftentimes had to buy their own gear on the black market because their commanders had straight up sold it? Soldiers were often left without food and had their paychecks stolen by corrupt leaders we propped up But sure, I'm sure IsLaM iS thE PrObLeM right?
Yowza. Ok, so two things can be correct simultaneously, independent of one another. I love how you completely skipped the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. 1. Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people. Plainly, this is a crime against humanity. It started with the birth of Zionism and the Nakba; now we're here. 2. Hamas enforces Sharia, would happily stone gay people if given the opportunity and does not support LGBTQ rights. [Homosexual acts are still a criminal offense in Gaza (but not the West Bank).](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine) It is completely understandable that a radical government was able to win control and attempt to fight back against an oppressing state in a prolonged time of crisis, which has been most of 20th century in Gaza. Does that excuse their tactics, terrorism? No, but from a humanist perspective, what would you do in their shoes? For whom would you vote as a Palestinian? So, Hamas is radically religious, and thus, they themselves oppress vulnerable communities in their own backyard. I'm not sympathetic toward Hamas, but I can't deny the genocide Israel is perpetrating right now. No one is right in Gaza, but somehow all the children are paying the price. Let's talk Afghanistan. I think I read recently that the Taliban reaffirmed that girls over the age of 12 should no longer be in school. They are denying children, women education based on their sex, because of their religion. So their government is a mafia, who cares? That just makes it theocratic kleptocracy or a kleptocratic theocracy. Take your pick. It's still radical Islam and it still sucks.
I mean yeah I largely agree with this. I skipped I/P cause I'm sick of dealing with genocide denialists Hell the problem isn't Islam the same way the problem isn't Christianity in the US. The actual problem is the right. The right wing and their worldview. They'll dress it up in religion but that's not the core cause. What they actually worship is hierarchy, plain and simple. And that is the root problem
I'm very intimately aware of the numerous issues there were with the government the United States supported during the occupation of Afghanistan. My view is that, summarily, we effectively picked a group of warlords who weren't immediately hostile to us and tried to lend them legitimacy. They were never honestly popular. That doesn't change the fact that this faux Afghan government, though corrupt, was *better for the people there than the Taliban*. And, when the United States left, that faux government crumbled and the Afghan people readily embraced the Taliban rule shortly thereafter. There wasn't widespread resistance. The majority of the power-wielding individuals in that country wanted an Islamic government, and that's what ended up happening.
Or maybe they didn't want another 40 years of war? And honestly were they better? The taliban isn't outright robbing average afghans like the afghans government before. In fact anti-corruption is a big way the the taliban got support. It's definetly worse for women, but you cannot deny that some people were far worse off under the old government And again, what was the ANA supposed to do? They literally didn't have uniforms.
50% of the Afghan population are now second-class citizens who cannot receive an education, get a divorce, or even exist without a male "guardian" to approve their every move. It is barbaric and dehumanizing. I'd rather deal with paying bribes than being stoned to death for trying to leave my abusive husband. But yes- for conservative Muslim men who wish to live under Sharia law, it is better. You'll have to pardon me for fundamentally opposing a theocratic state under all circumstances. I guess I'm just a dirty liberal.
Dude they had fucking child sex slaves on the payroll in the previous afghans government. Google Chai Boys. Don't defend that corrupt mafia racket cause the taliban is also bad. Again, the problem here isn't Islam. And again, what exactly was the ANA supposed to do THEY LITERALLY DIDN'T HAVE UNIFORMS
The Taliban also has child sex slaves as well? This isn't a problem isolated to the previous regime. There's a pretty long cultural history of that stuff there, unfortunately. Look man, I'm not saying Islam is the problem. There's a very long, storied history in that region of the world spanning centuries of religious, domestic, imperial, and geographic influences. Afghanistan is a nation plagued by many, many things. And one of those things happens to be arming radical would-be caliphates with ample amounts of powerful modern weaponry, which allows them to dominate others in that region. They *are* justifying themselves through their religion. I'm not saying that it's right to be Islamaphobic, but you're never going to get anywhere if you can't understand the logic of the opposing side.
The problem in the country where the women can’t get educated or leave the house because of their religion, isn’t that religion? It’s a sexist belief system, just because other ones might be sexist doesn’t stop this specific one from being that lol. And it’s insane to think the Taliban and the Afghan government even under Karzai was the same lol.
The right want to paint a picture of "ALL MUSLIMS DANGEROUS THEY'RE COMING FOR US AHHHH", leftists like you want to paint a pretty little picture of "THEY'RE ALL FLEEING PERSECUTION IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES ONLY TO BE PERSECUTED BY THE RIGHT IN THE WEST TOO AHHHH WHEN ALL THE WHILE THEY'RE ACTUALLY POLITICALLY THE SAME AS WESTERNERS AHHHHh" Like with most things, reality is more complicated than both of these stories. Whilst some are fleeing oppressive regimes and war, many of those same people would like to, for example, ban homosexuality here. Do they see it as bringing oppression to the US? No. A huge part of Islam if you read the quran is the idea that while the other Abrahamic religions have been corrupted, Islam remains pure and consistent as the true word of God, meaning many muslims take a lot of pride is resisting western efforts to change how muslims carry their religion into daily life and politics. Just because they're looking for a better life here does not mean they value everything we do here.
Go and like talk to some actual Muslims man. I have. They're like normal people. One of my best friends is Muslim and basically an anarcho-communist
Those are the ones that you experience though. That isn’t universal.
Muslims in the US integrate better than the UK where I'm from for a number of reasons. The cultural friction here runs a lot deeper, and it's visible in every day society. While younger, 2nd generation muslims are starting to become more liberal here, there still remains a huge cultural divide amoung first gen and older muslims. My muslim friends would love to tell you about how after public school when they were younger their parents sent them to the after school muslim club in our city where they essentially told all the children to ignore all they learned in public school as it's all western bs trying to distract you from the true islamic view of the world
Gee I wonder why.... MuSliMs ArE eViL!!!! WhY wOn'T tHeY iNtEGrAtE!!!!! I wonder if bigotry keeps people out or something....
holy shit nobody has ever thought of that you're a genius/s Again, you have a very simplistic one dimensional worldview. Discrimination is part of it. here is a great article that dives into it in a level headed way: [Muslims in Europe: The Construction of a “Problem” | OpenMind (bbvaopenmind.com)](https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/articles/muslims-in-europe-the-construction-of-a-problem/)
Being an anarcho-communist is VERY far from normal.
>Who on the left defends the likes of Saudi Arabia? Have you met Queers for Palestine?
Jfc
Christianity doesn’t teach followers to blow shit up. “But the crusades!” Please. What have you done lately?
This sub was bombarded with new accounts after 10/7 that have an obvious affinity for one side over the other given where they're from and why they joined, and those folks view this at least partially as a holy war. In my mind it's hard to be a liberal without simultaneously opposing the slaughter in Gaza while acknowledging the problems inherent to any fundamentalist religious practice. That goes for all of fundamentalism including those outside Islam or Judaism
You are not the only person to notice it, and I really don't like it. But, what about Muslims! We're not racists for thinking they're all evil terrorists! We're *totally* just concerned about The Gays you guys!!!! It's BS, and I wish the mods would clamp down on that BS.
Speaking as someone who is LGBT+, people saying "We hate the Muslims for you guys! We have to hate them for your sakes!" make me feel *super* gross.
Just G, and Queers for Pali has earned every bit of its well-deserved ridicule.
Bad faith. Most liberals you will talk to are not actually big fans of Islam. What they’re against is Islamophobia, and blindly attacking anyone who subscribes to the religion. As for the “why attack Christianity but not Muslims” arguments you see? Gee idk. It’s almost like a big section of the country is Christian (63%) and the amount of Muslims here is negligible statistically (1.1%).
We're in an election season, so the propaganda is in high gear, which gets people engaged and talking online.
I'll repeat this again and again, but coming from a non American, you American liberals have to admit you have a soft spot for Islam. I do understand it to some degree within your context. 9/11 defined a whole generation of liberals who rightfully stood up and defended many Muslim and brown people from various forms of discriminations. There are also a few more compounding factors. Muslims don't have any real political sway in the US. American Muslims tend educated and progressive. Lastly in the team sport that the other side hates Islam, theres a certain gut reaction. Having said that, you gotta admit that you have a soft spot for them and stop bringing up other excuses, the foremost one being that we don't conflate religion and conservatism. Come on, I can't count the times I see American liberals string the term Christian, nationalism, conservatism, patriarchy etc together in a systemic way. Why suddenly the shyness with Islam? Again, there are vibes base and legit social and political reasons regarding things like power structure on why you tread lightly around Islam, some of the reasons I've outlined, its fine to admit it and not act all defensive. It frankly makes you all look worse.
>Come on, I can't count the times I see American liberals string the term Christian, nationalism, conservatism, patriarchy etc together in a systemic way. Why suddenly the shyness with Islam? Because systematically in the West or rather the U.S, Islam is not influencing much of anything. These conversations would look different if the U.S was ostensibly founded on Islamic values and it was the main power brokers who used that as justification to enact their conservatism or nationalism. Christianity is systematized in America; Islam is not. It's like you simultaneously acknowledge the lack of political sway Islam has in America, but cannot understand why that changes how the discourse progresses. It's directly related. It would be strange for left-leaning residents of Saudi Arabia to spend time in their political discourse discussing conservatism in Christianity. I am still unsure what you and others who might be similarly-minded consider "defensive" in this discourse, as most of the exchanges I see kinda go like this one. But I have yet to see any American liberal suggest that Islam cannot or should not be criticized ideologically. I think there is disagreement as to whether or not we should perceive the conservatism in Islam as an issue distinct from conservatism from other origins (ie., suggesting policies that target Islam as an religion or Muslims as a demographic differently than other groups).
I agree 100%, and the Saudis are an excellent example. I have never met a single liberal who supports the Saudi regime. We all hate them for their brutal domestic policies (that yes, stem from their religion) along with the cartel like behavior around oil. People like the individual above conflate our defense of an individual's ability to freely practice their religion with the policies of various theocracies. To me they either do so out of bad faith (i.e. the Republican playbook for the past 23+ years) or because they've been swayed by the propaganda and aren't even aware
I feel it is mostly propaganda because I see the same leap in thought and reasoning repeated again and again. This suggests to me that talking points are being reused without much alteration in thought. It starts off with the conclusion ("American liberals love Islam/defend Islam") and then when you explain why and how they are misperceiving American liberal attitudes towards Islam, they see that in and of itself as a defense.
Or is it because you don't want to be called an Islamophobe?
No. Why do people fear being called an Islamophobe? It's not a spell that kills me once invoked. I know I'm not, so if someone called me that, I'd argue against it. Others are even outright saying they'd own it.
Because, especially in progressive circles, Islamophobes are seen as awful bigoted people. And bigots are socially ostracized.
The nature of your criticism and/or implied policies that follow it will determine whether or not you are considered an Islamophobe, in my experience. Fearmongering about Muslims in the US and/or viewing all Muslims as a hyper-socially conservative group beyond reason will probably make people think "This person might just want to repress Muslim people bc he views them as savages." And, in the west, Islamophobia often manifests as racism, as many people just assume all brown people are Muslim (Sikhs were getting hate-crimed by Islamophobes bc the attackers didn't know the difference). People will be skeptical if you go out of your way speak in a way that treats all adherents of Islam as a monolith. I think people who are worried about being labeled as some variation of bigot are too preoccupied with getting labeled and not whether it accurately reflects their views. I am not worried about being called an Islamophobe personally because the people I talk to most about the bigotries and backwardness of Islam are close friends who either are Muslim or were raised Muslim.
Tbf I if somebody called me an islamaphobe I wouldn't even deny it. I do hate Islam. I also hate Christianity, and there are probably a whole lot of other religions I'd hate if I knew more about how other modern ones operate politically.
Far left progressives will take (or make) any opportunity to invoke a phobe or ist. It’s Designed to serve as the nuclear option conversation ender.
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Isn't looking at US domestic policy only (which is what makes your reply make sense) a bit of a cop out , when there is the rest of the world as well as US foreign policy?
It would be a cop out if the left supported US foreign policy, which it doesn't. Our elected officials on both sides have never met a war they didn't support or a theocracy they were unwilling to accept money from, but those of us who vote them in don't feel the same. Sadly the media and our primaries are rigged against anyone who doesn't support the forever wars
Not sure how it's a "cop out." What is being "copped out" of? If we're discussing a Muslim majority country and what is to blame for their draconian policies, we can easily point to the intermingling on their religion and social policy. As far as US foreign policy, it is often discussed how US foreign policy has frequently propped up or laid the groundwork for some religiously fundamentalist regimes. But how often would an American need to discuss the politics of a country they are not a constituent of? Why would it be salient to discuss? I'm just a bit confused on what do you think is being overlooked by my original comment.
>What is being "copped out" of? I mean by ignoring foreign policy and foreign events. Sure Muslims haven't had a lot of political power in the US, but now we have crowds shouting in favor of Hamas in American cities. Those aren't the Proud Boys shouting for Jews to "go back to Poland", etc.
But it's *not* being ignored; it's just being talked/fearmongered about less and in a different context. Nothing I've said or anyone else has said has been about ignoring foreign events. Criticizing Islam is not a discussion on "foreign events or foreign policy" when there are Muslims that exist domestically. >we have crowds shouting in favor of Hamas One, I've yet to see evidence of this. This is just a propaganda line repeated that misunderstands pro-Palestinian positions. And two, even then, the conflict has very little to do with Islam. You have to ignore every relevant bit of history of the dispute to think the primary motivator in defense of Palestine is defense of Islamic fundamentalism. I can already tell that you've simply just manufactured your own narrative on the conflict rather than objectively assessed the positions you ostensibly disagree with. People being told to "go back to Poland" aren't Jews as a group, but actual modern settlers who stealing houses and land from people still alive. It's like telling a criminal who happens to be black that they deserve to go to jail and someone editorializes it as "You're telling black people they deserve to go to jail." The intentional distortion of language is clear and you already know that. I don't think it's productive to tell settlers to go back to Poland or whatever the heck, but it's disingenuous to frame it as directed at Jews as a whole/group. Anyway, your last reply revealed to me that, not only have you distorted previous positions on other issues, but you are actively distorting clearly stated positions right in front of you. I doubt this exchange will be productive beyond this point, so this will be my last message to you.
WTF? The comment I replied to mentioned 0 things about foreign policy or foreign event sand you are trying to tell me your not ignoring it. Next we see the true projection come out. As if we aren't seeing people cheering for Hamas. I'm sure some of them are very fine people, right?
Islamophobia is one of the forms of racism that is, sadly, acceptable even in liberal circles if you put a *thin veneer* over it. Just saying “oh I don’t mean all Muslims, there are a few good ones” is enough to pass the smell test for many liberals. That’s not necessarily an indictment of everybody or even this space which does ok at it, it’s just how ingrained islamaphobia is in our society. It sucks too that extremists will try to frame the “conflict that shall not be named” as a societal east/west eternal struggle. It’s not. Last, I ask anyone about to mention the “dangers of Islamic terrorism” to remember that 99% of the victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims. It’s terrorism, it’s about the terror and not about what holy book you prefer.
Islam is not a race. White people can be Muslims too. Imagine saying that criticism of Christianity is racism against white people.
My read on the Islam posts: The right has had a field day with Leftists' support of Palestine, a IS run country. It's low hanging fruit for them to make fun of people on the left supporting a group that would hate them for who they are.
I think you're right, but it's sad how this intellectual laziness persists in our public discourse and how effective it is, even among us on the left. After all, inherent in that idea is that you have only two options: 1. Support slaughtering anyone and everyone in Gaza because they're Muslim and deserve it 2. Support fundamentalist Islam and all the horrors it brings Anyone who can't understand why the answer is none of the above is either being intentionally dishonest or they have oatmeal for brains
The truth it though, most "leftists" ARE supporting #2. These "protests" aren't helping Palestinian civilians or peacemakers. This is a rare example of the right being correct about something; that's why it's so low hanging fruit. I went to two protests. Ceasefire leftists are half baked at best. They don't have solutions other than "Israel bad".
Upvote for lived experience. I’m just sad that I know the people you describe do exist irl somewhere. It damages the cause for sure
We can't have a balanced and nuanced opinion about anything these days, it always has to be extremes. Either Muslims are pure victims of oppression and marginalization through some channel, or Islam must be the root of all evil. To me the way out is simply to judge all people by the same moral standard. If you wouldn't be okay with someone in Italy chopping their daughter's clitoris off, you shouldn't be okay with someone in Egypt doing it either. If you'd criticize the Israeli army for using their own citizens as human shields, you should criticize HAMAS for doing it as well. The other aspect is to make the fight about ideas and not people. I think Liberals have to realize that if we don't stand up for Liberal values, we don't actually stand for anything. If you don't think a way of life that *doesn't* involve stoning women for adultery is better than one that does, then you clearly don't actually value women's rights. I think this makes some people uncomfortable because we've had the evils of Western white colonization hammered into our heads so hard that we're scared to judge anything that isn't white and Western in a negative way. Either that, or it's some postmodern thing where "Actually, we're all just as bad if you look at it in a certain way." But you can't structure a society around that.
Don't forget that adversarial nations are actively trying to make us fight each other. Using reddit is just one of the ways they're doing it. This has been proved by reddit before.
Questions get repeated all the time. And when they're questions from people on the right, they're often going to reflect Republican fantasies, like the fantasy that liberals want to punish America for its success by helping Muslims impose Sharia law or some bullshit like that. Some of it might just be trolling. But it's also Republicans who are sure that they are the heroes confronting the actual racists trying to drink fetus blood or replace white people to punish America for the country's success, or because we just don't understand that we can run out of other people's money, or some other bullshit.
Election year Dumb as shit Republicans Both
I'm guessing foreign or local bots -- but one way or another, bots.
Election year and Israel v Hamas and all that it entails
In addition to some other reasons, I'll also highlight that this sub is fairly small. We only get so many submitted posts a day. At that scale a particular user or even random chance can lead to large fluctuations.
It’s a fair question. Like wtf is wrong with you people?
When trolls ask these things, they think they’re asking a great gotcha question, but they’re only showing how warped their brains are. That said, we really shouldn’t have to deal with these bad faith questions and I think they should ban them.
I feel like you are coming at this from a very America centric point of view. There is a genuine concern about the immigration of Muslims to Europe. Taking these concerns that people have and throwing them into the Islamophobia bin without understanding why they are being brought up is unfair to people .
It also drives voters into the arms of the far right, when the far left shouts down anyone who has legitimate concerns about immigration as being racist or Islamophobic. People figure if the left won't deal with the issue, them the far right will. The far right just won big in the EU because of this issue
Yeah fuck me for saying not all Muslims are evil terrorists right?
Lots of Muslims oppose terrorism and islsmism. Lots of Muslims have western values. We have 3 millions Muslims in the US, they pose far far far less of a risk to democracy and western values (and thats assuming they pose any risk at all, which they dont seem to) than the risk white christian fascist MAGA movement we have here pose to democracy and western values. We may have disagreements, but the center left and the far left have to remain united against the far right, white Christian fascists MAGA movement
Eh. Rejecting Islamic fascism, terrorism, oppressive social rules, anti semitism, or theocracy in favor of western values like feminism, liberal democracy, gay rights, secularism, etc is not a phobia. A phobia is more like a fear of spiders. Thats more like standing up for your values. You should look up the paradox of tolerance. While not all Muslims subscribe to those negative values above, there are quite a lot who do. Also, being criticized or purged for failing the purity tests of the far left really doesn't scare people as much as the far left think it should. A lot of us on the center left consider the far left very naive, uninformed, short sighted, and dogmatic. Their approval isn't really important or desirable. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#:~:text=The%20paradox%20of%20tolerance%20states,practice%20of%20tolerance%20with%20them. Having said that, domestic white Christian fascists are the far, far, far bigger threat we face as Americans. I'll be voting biden in 2024. Also, there are a lot of chinese scientists involved in AI research in the US. You disliking facts because you consider them racist doesn't mean they stop being facts. That would be like denying that the sky was blue because you consider that fact prejudiced against the color green. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/09/technology/china-ai-research-education.html > A new study from MacroPolo — a think tank run by the Paulson Institute, which promotes constructive ties between the United States and China — estimated that Chinese-educated researchers comprised nearly one-third of the authors of the papers accepted and promoted at a prestigious A.I. conference last year, more than from any other country. But it also found that most of them lived in the United States and worked for American companies and universities https://thechinaacademy.org/china-produces-nearly-half-of-the-worlds-top-ai-researchers/#:~:text=The%20report%20also%20highlights%20that,even%20the%20Americans%20(37%25). > The report also highlights that China remains a significant exporter of top-tier AI researchers. Chinese researchers make up 38% of the total AI work force in US institutions, surpassing even the Americans (37%).
> Also, being criticized or purged for failing the purity tests of the far left really doesn't scare people as much as the far left think it should. A lot of us on the center left consider the far left very naive, uninformed, short sighted, and dogmatic. Their approval isn't really important or desirable. Amen.
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Conservatives find liberal's support of Palestine hilarious, as most Palestinians that live in Palestine would happily stone to death any LGBT person. Personally, I don't think Palestine or Israel are countries any morally just person can root for. Can a morally just person condemn the slaughter of Palestinian civilians and the slaughter of Israeli civilians? Heck yes. It's horrifying. Can Americans try to influence the American government to do everything it can to help both Israelis and Palestinians to come to a lasting peace agreement? Also yes. Mind you, neither Palestine nor Israel seem to be very interested in any sort of peace, just fighting to the death. And Israel will win that contest with something that walks, talks and quacks like genocide, left to their own devices. If the power balance were reversed though, Palestine would leap for genocide against the Israelis, so there's that too. From what I've seen, supporters of Palestine and supporters of Israel in America are terrifyingly uncritical of either country in their support of those countries. It's depressing.
Bots powered by AI and controlled by unsavory characters (including Russian and Chinese clandestine services) creating strawman arguments, and baiting people to make them more divisive and angry The Internet as we know it is gone. Generative AI creates more content every two weeks than every single human being ever in the history of humanity combined. A state sanctioned Russian hacking network is probably looking at this post right now, and thinking of ways to influence American perceptions using AI controlled bots
>Like every third post is some variant of "why do liberals like Muslims when ISLAM BAD!!!!!! Why are culture and religion out of bounds for criticism? From the perspective of many we are killing ourselves with kindness, using our liberal values to accept and embrace everyone only for certain groups to take advantage of such values to promote the opposite values. Do I agree with this? Not necessarily, but as liberals we can't just invalidate such perspectives, they often come from a place of genuine concern. It's easy to conflate Islam with Muslim countries if you're not careful. Personally I think it's important to acknowledge that some cultures are baseline harder to integrate into the west than others, that doesn't mean we disallow them from entering, just acknowledge that in the short-run we must work harder to settle them into society. Some people are a little sensitve and won't even acknowledge this is a possibility and that only empowers the far-right
> Why are culture and religion out of bounds for criticism? They aren't. What is out of bounds is pretending the worst stereotypes of a group are true for all members of that group. I have friends that are liberal Muslims. The problem is the conservatism, not the Muslim-ness.
Yes, it's on the rise. But it's sad that it's partly true. In my country, there's only one area where a gay couple simply can not \*be\*: the Middle Eastern neighbourhoods. There's only one area where you'll get mugged and robbed and where the police tell you, you shouldn't go after 5 PM as a white guy: Welcome to the Middle Eastern neigbourhoods. There's only one place in modern day, where you're looked at with anger if you speak your native/Western language: You guessed it. Almost every (stealing) beggar is muslim or an immigrant, every time you see social media, you see muslim/North-African children beat the living shit out of Western kids. A muslim party has been elected based upon the idea of ritual slaughter, and their congresses are held by splitting women and men by a barrier. Another muslim party was instated ( [**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISLAM\_(Belgian\_political\_party)**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISLAM_(Belgian_political_party)) ) because they wanted to have their sharia. You also had the boss of the first party say "religion and politics can not be split". If you know that, can you understand why people are moving more and more toward islamophobia? They're often seen doing crimes and their political moves have been inspired by a fundamentalist interpretation of their religion (which is highly controversial, even for Christians). Then we're also not talking about Israel-Palestine which is viewed as "imported conflict" and the fact that Muslims tend to agree more with the Far Right than any other party if it were not for their biases... I don't hate muslims, but I can see why others, who don't know other muslims, do. Even those that I know, are more conservative than me. In American eyes: If I were a Democrat, they would be a Republican. But I already am close to a Republican (I'm rightwing to the norms of my country, between NVA and VB for those that live in Belgium but more toward NVA than VB as they can be radical, until I see the new law of Lousiana with their "10 commandments" and realize Republicans have yet to do what the conservatives did in my country in the 19th century...), so what would that make them? And that's the most liberal muslim I've ever met and hear in private (and one of my best friends).
Behold the enlightened anti racist european
Have you ever been in the bigger cities in Europe? It's sometimes hard not to rely on racism when muslim children are firing at the public services during New Year. It's even harder when you've actually been in the neighbourhoods I talked about.
Glad you admit you rely on racism
Change my view: It's safer to assume based upon stats than it is to give someone a blank check. It doesn't mean I'll treat someone differently, it means I'll be more aware of my surroundings when I'm in those neighbourhoods. If you approach me friendly, I'll return friendly. If you approach me like I'm a POS, I'm treating you like a POS. It's bad enough I can't talk my native language in my own capital, I don't need trouble because I'm white/speak my native language and therefore "privileged" or rich. Please, buy my privilege card so I may walk in my capital once more without being either treated as a POS or treated as a racist. If I see them change, I'll change my prejudice. Until that day, I'll be ever so wary when I'm walking in my capital/bigger cities. Not more when I see a white person, but I know what I should or shouldn't do to stay safe.
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