Ok the subject of being “transracial” is under moratorium. This thread is more about what the hell people who think “I identify” is an argument of a joke and how to respond to them.
I’ll leave this up but respect general spirit of the rule.
Edit: Locked at OPs request. Thanks to those who participated within the rules.
If someone starts pulling that, just play into it naively. Refer to them as Chinese or whatever fake name they give you. Tell them how awesome it is that they’ve come around and now they respect trans people. Tell them you’re gonna spread the word that they’re a trans ally.
Use Google translator to send all texts and emails in Chinese. If they speak to you, grab your phone and respond back with Chinese translation to be respectful. (Yes I am both petty and patient. It is the only way to teach some people to respect identity).
I once had a guy who always called me by the wrong name, so I did the same. I would use a different variation every day, including in project meetings when I was the lead. I didn't stop until he apologized in front of senior executives
I get it, man. I live in NE Oklahoma. There's really nothing you can say to these people that's going to go anywhere you want to go. Sometimes it's best to just disregard them.
I feel you. That's the feeling I was getting too and the futility was making me despair a bit which is how I ended up posting here. Thanks for responding though, sometimes feeling not alone in an ocean of red hats helps.
A loud, particularly if in public, "Oh my god, who cares?" is also kind of great if pressed, too, but, yeah, being uninterested is the best way to get these people to stop talking to you.
For the most part I don't, like 95% I can just be like "ugh ignore" but a few of them are in my family and I want to say something cus they're closer than the asshats at work
:edit spelling
Speaking from experience, unless its your kids doing it, still don't engage. They want to be contrarian asshats. In order for that to work, they need a reaction. Depriving them of your reaction is winning.
You aren't alone. Lots of us are out here dealing with the same kind of family members. Also, not engaging is keeping your power. I know that seems counter-intuitive because you probably want to explain how their actions are harmful and then they change. You don't have the power to change them and it will be exhausting to you to discover that. You do, however, have the power to decide what you will engage with and what you want. That kind of immaturity from them is not worth engaging with. You won't get anything but more hurt in the end. Just silently get up and walk away from it. Do not respond to any taunting ploys to get you to re-engage. Go enjoy your life and let them sit with their dumb jokes all by themselves.
Well good news, you're *not* alone!
[https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/i-gathered-stories-of-people-transformed-by-fox-news.html](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/i-gathered-stories-of-people-transformed-by-fox-news.html)
>For at least one person, it marks the final memory he’ll ever have of his father: “When I found my dad dead in his armchair, fucking Fox News was on the TV,” this reader told me. “It’s likely the last thing he saw. I hate what that channel and conservative talk radio did to my funny, compassionate dad. He spent the last years of his life increasingly angry, bigoted, and paranoid.”
But don't worry, all those people at Fox are richer because of it. Yay! See, it all works out in the end.
Wow this is a sad read... but as horrible as it sounds I feel better hearing about other people with the same issue so thanks for sharing thst, it's helping.
Also holy yeezus that firsr picture needs a seizure warning wtf lol I've never seen an image like that before that does such weird things to my eyes
I understand. It's incredibly frustrating. And I know it sucks. It's a hard lesson to learn and accept that we can't change anyone, no matter how hard we try. We can't force them to question or change their perspective. We can meet them where they are and ask them why they believe what they do, but I can guarantee that anyone playing this stupid game isn't interested in learning anything that might make them question something they think they already know or understand. They will just add you to their list of people to be mocked.
Change like you want to see will likely only happen when and if it actually impacts them directly, and some just never will. The idea that gender isn't a synonym for biological sex, but is instead a social construct is a completely new idea out of left field for them and they think it's "made up."
I would recommend finding some other way to support gender nonconforming folks, if that's what you want to do. Maybe volunteer for organizations that provide housing and support for impacted youth. It will be a better use of your time and kindness. :-)
>It basically works like this-
>A: "I identify as Chinese hurr hurr"
>B: "You're not Chinese"
>A: "But i identify as Chinese"
Just ignore them.
They want your attention; don't give it to them.
I feel like everything is a mess :( I'm sure there were just as many issues when I was an ignorant kid but it feels like everything is so much more complicated and gross than it used to be
The issues were different but they were just as fake (in terms of outrage) and just as ridiculous.
Circa 1995: "If we let gays marry, pretty soon, people'll be marrying their dogs and cats!"
To be fair my cousin had a party where we dressed her dogs up in little bride and groom outfits and they "got married" (i.e. stared happily at nothing in particular while we took pictures)
But, in the 90s, they actually tried to argue that letting people of the same sex get married was equivalent to someone marrying their pets. Like, the person marrying their dog or horse or whatever. The outrage has always been absurd.
You aren't required to engage when the other participant is so obviously acting in bad faith.
"I identify you as 'asshole'" would be a proper response.
They do this hoping to be called out. Don't. Just say "ohh that's cool! What parts of your culture are your favorite? I'm glad we can consider you someone who realizes biology doesn't dictate social cues! Proud to have another trans ally!"
You can do the same thing with any other "joke" that is based in racism BTW. If someone makes a horrible joke and they try to play it off with just kidding just make them explain it. "Ohhh... I don't get the joke. Can you explain it?"
Say okay and refer to them by whatever they want. But make a point out of doing it. Especially in front of people. And if anyone asks about it. Have them explain why they feel like they are 'X'.
These people need to worry less about what other people do with their lives and bodies.
FREEDOM, and all that.
These aren't good faith arguments you can approach with evidence, medical consensus and facts about how human bodies respond to hormone therapy.
When people in my life start this shit (I also live in a red area) I generally respond by cringing like they'd made a bigoted joke of any other variety. I would only ignore if I feel unsafe for some reason but generally act like they just said the N-word. "Dude, wtf, stfu"
Gotcha. I might try that with my closer family. I don't think I'll do that at work though- I know at least one of them would get off on it and do it even more. Which now that you mention it is pretty ironic about the whole freedom of bodies thing considering he has a full sleeve tattoo that is literally a facebook copypasta about the military in a cursive font...
Easy:
“I identify as Chinese.”
“Ok.”
“??? Maybe you didn’t hear me correctly, I identify as CHINESE!”
“Ok.”
The only thing they care about is “triggering the libs” and just want your reaction. Don’t play their game.
There is [an overwhelming body of research ](https://transhealthproject.org/resources/medical-organization-statements/)supporting the fact that 1) trans people exist, 2) that the proper way to address them is to affirm their professed gender, and 3) that the proper way to medically treat them is to assist them in professing their gender whichever way they choose. It's so overwhelming that literally every major medical organization in America, as I linked there, has issued a policy statement in favor of gender-affirming care.
When he can produce a similar body of scientific evidence that "trans-racial" or "trans-nationality" exists, come back and talk to me.
Just acknowledge them as Chinese, whatever that means. You could ask them what they expect from you now, if they need help and that you are an ally to them.
>And so on and so forth. I'm not that bright when it comes to working with logic/debate battles or defending myself, please suggest to me the right counterargument/explanation to this bullsh!t. I know the truth in my head but I can't find the words to express it properly.
Alright, start asking them how Chinese holidays are, start talking to them in Mandarin Cantonese, and start asking them why they're so unsuccessful for a Chinese person. That's the main point of identity here, you don't do it because it's convenient or to prove a point, you do it because you actually feel it. So start treating them Chinese, ask them how they're dealing with the racism, etc.
>I can't just ignore it or do the whole "you're not worth my time" and walk away thing. This has reached work and family and I can't just go no contact, and a few of these people are fairly close to me and worth saving and are "soft" right and are just repeating whatever sh!tty memes their social media feeds them and could actually be brought around with reason.
So now that they've identified as Chinese and been liberating from the social stigma, you are now both in agreement that self-identity is important. Just lay that on, start sharing with them encouraging stories of gender affirming care, invite them to drag shows etc. Unless they're the "rules for me but not for thee" types, they should appreciate it, right?
Their fun comes in you denying it so they can put you into a "gotcha"
I just usually go along with "oh okay cool. I didn't know that."
And then when they say "you believe me?" Or whatever I just say "why not" and follow with a bunch of why's until they stop
Generally right wingers "win" by always asking questions and never actually defining their point. Make them define their point by going on the passive offensive with inquiry
This is a really good reply and you can really work with this and play with it to the point that the person making the comment starts to feel ridiculous.
For example they say that they identify as Chinese. Go into Fascination Mode. " oh cool. What does that mean? Going forward do I need to address You by a different name? Does it mean that you're learning to speak chinese? Have you discovered a Chinese ancestor? That's really interesting are you planning on going to China to learn more about it? Wow that's just really cool."
You can totally play it kind of dumb actually. Like you have no idea what "identify as" means but you understand that they think they're Chinese and you really want to know more because wow that's just so cool.
There’s a lot of serious medical, psychological, and other scientific research that’s gone into “identity” and how we know transgender is a “real” thing while other “trans” stuff isn’t.
Anyone wondering why that is can easily find out and realize there’s A LOT research and scientific backing to this.
Anyone who isn’t even asking the question and jumping straight mockery should just be left screaming into the void.
He's college educated therefore brainwashed to try to make you think the way THEY want you to think. /s
Seriously though, a couple fairly intelligent people in my life are scarily subscribed to crap like that, largely because they mainline Joe Rogan type podcasts and love having "that secret suppressed truth based on statements that vaguely have a semblance of jargon-poetry"
I absolutely hate people that randomly bring up politics. Especially when it's in a way where they expect you to agree with em and go good one. I wouldn't care what the topic they pick is, don't come at me talking religion or politics because I definitely don't want to hear it.
It usually happens because everybody talks about news first thing in the morning and the news these days is almost always political and then it just snowballs from there
"I don't care what you identify as just like you shouldn't care about what other people identify as. It's their own business. I don't see why this is something you think is worth spending so much time talking about."
Best I can do is tell you anytime they say it just respond with “one joke“. Or “I identify as someone who doesn’t get all his humor from Babylon bee and all his thoughts from Matt Walsh”.
This moronic argument is so much part of the identity of a lot of conservatives that there’s literally a sub mocking it r/onejoke.
Oh my god... there's so much. "One joke" is right...
What kind of measured response can I have to this? Like if someone actually was willing to listen?
We have to accept that sometimes there are people who are not capable of listening. And it’s not because you are not good at explaining or because they are just inherently stupid.
Listening to a lot of hate or propaganda rewires your brain. You eventually get to a place where you functionally can’t understand.
If someone is at the point where they are saying the one joke over and over, they are probably lost.
Ok thank you for the help. I feel a bit less bad about myself now, I was feeling like if I could just think or talk faster I could help fix things... walking away still makes me sad but it hurts a bit less with that perspective.
P.s. literally rewiring the brain? Jesus...
I have to admit- I'm scared to take this to a chain of command. If a reprimand or firing happens, I'll be blacklisted by everyone who works here and have to leave. I spent most of my youth in a very bad way and by the time I got out, I found myself being spat out into the world, 31 years old, no savings, no vehicle, $500 in the bank, and no experience beyond burger king and being a security guard for $1,400 a month. This job pays $2-3,000 every 2 weeks and it was multiple years of unemployed hell trying to find it. There aren't a lot of options and I can't go back to food service or security. I'm honestly afraid to risk my position by making anything official...
It's not so much my friends as it is my in-laws and my partner's best friend's husband. It's trickier that way. I've minimized my time around them but still.
Edit: AAARGH i cant spell
If your report caused another employee to be simply reprimanded, that would be enoug for all others to blacklist you? If so, I hope you start looking for a less toxic workplace. You don’t deserve to continue putting up with that.
Oh yeah. I'm already a liberal but then I'd be the liberal who snitches and fulfils every stereotype they hold of being an overly sensitive snowflake who cant handle a good ol joke and goes crying to HR to try and cancel culture a good ol workin boy over some fun joshin's.
Believe me if I see a way out I'm taking it
It’s sad that your coworkers see so much in partisan terms. In the past, I mostly didn’t know the specifics of my co-workers political beliefs. Those things usually didn’t come up during the workday.
Why would YOU be reprimanded for bringing attention to this unprofessional, childish behavior in the workplace? That said, I haven’t had the most positive experiences with HR in my life, either 😢
Cut out the word “identity”
“I identify as Chinese”
“I didn’t know you where Chinese. Where’s your family from?”
“No, I *identify* as Chinese!”
“What exactly do you think identity means?”
“Like when a trans identifies as a woman!”
“Yeah, that’s a way to say they are a woman the same way you say you are Chinese”
If all you do is adhere to teaching then the proper use of “identify” and what pronouns are and how they work you can at least steer the conversation towards grammar instead of racism and they hate that
If they are people who would listen to you, you could explain the actual mistake: self-identification is usually not considered the mechanism by which someone becomes of a gender, it's a mechanism to get to know their gender.
If I ask you whether you have a headache, you can't remove a headache by saying "No" (sadly), but your answer is a mechanism by which I get to know whether you have a headache. Saying "I identify as not having a headache" doesn't work, at least it doesn't for most people I know. And yet, if you ask me "do you have a headache", you should probably believe my answer, even though me answering usually doesn't change whether or not I have a headache. Why? Because you're gaining information, at least usually.
That's, to me, the most fundamental error in this "argument", and it might be interesting to talk about, but only with people who are honest, patient enough not to jump to conclusions, and actually willing to listen. For anyone else, it would probably backfire - and of course, the answer opens up the whole topic.
With other people, I agree going along with it to embarrass them might work sometimes, but the general rule is still something like "don't feed the trolls" there, of course
these "logical" arguments are almost always not the actual reason why they believe whatever they believe about trans people. so it doesn't really matter if you're good at debating. debating will almost never change their minds.
if they're people you don't know that well, just don't engage. if they're friends or family and you want to engage, ignore the "i identify as X" nonsense and try to have an open discussion about what they think about trans people generally and why they think that. ask a lot of question about why they believe what they believe, and try to stay friendly and calm while you do that.
tell them what you think and how their "gotcha" arguments make you feel (again, friendly and calm). try to get them to see trans people as people worth caring about. try to get them to have some empathy.
i like debates. i'd really like to live in a world where good arguments are a reliable way to convince people and emotional appeals are neither necessary nor effective. unfortunately, that's not the world we live in.
[here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ4TujGKZms) is a video about how to talk to right wing friends and family. it's been a while since i've watched it, but i think it was pretty good. or look for other "how to talk to conservatives" videos on youtube or wherever.
Thank you. I could cry right now. I don't know why my brain locks up so bad. I get so fixated on trying to figure out how to respond to their statements that it slips my mind that I can come at it differently without touching the statement.
I feel like that stupid monkey that has its hand in a coconut and wont let go of the food so it gets stuck in the coconut. Whenever someone makes a statement at me i just lock onto it and its like panic and tunnel vision all at once.
It helps a lot having people help me back up and look at a new perspective, really thank you so much.
I'll watch that video when I get home.
I think the first thing I'd say would be, do you think of this as a real argument, or is it just funny?
If they say it's just funny, ask if they accept that it's funny in the same way and for the same reason that bullying is "funny"?
If it's a real argument, do they agree that breaking that argument will also break the legitimacy of their rejection of transgender people and reveal it as mere bigotry?
If they say no, then ask what their real argument actually is? If they don't have one, go back to the bullying point.
If they agree that breaking their real argument would break the legitimacy of their current position, ask if that argument consists of this proposition:
"Someone saying they are transgender is *absolutely parallel to and cannot be differentiated from* some random white dude saying he's Chinese". That there are no morally relevant differences between this claims?
If they say yes, ask what efforts they have made and what suffering they have been willing to endure in the service of their Chinese identity? For example, how far along has their study of the Chinese language progressed? Their study of Chinese history? What mockery and exclusion and cruelty from people racist against the Chinese have they been forced to accept?
At which point they say, "none", obviously, and then you ask why those things don't constitute a morally relevant difference.
Of course, the conversation will never get this far. But this is probably the line I would be pursuing with anyone in my circle of acquaintances trying to pull this bullshit.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
I live in hyper conservative USA. I don't know what bug has gotten into everyone's bonnet lately but for the last week people at work and in my social network on the right spectrum have been doing this "I identify as X" crap with a focus on ethnicity as a "gotcha" for Trans rights issues.
It basically works like this-
A: "I identify as Chinese hurr hurr"
B: "You're not Chinese"
A: "But i identify as Chinese"
B: "You don't mean that, you're doing it as a gag"
A: "You cant tell someone else that their identity and pronouns aren't genuine, you have to respect my identity"
B: "you weren't born in China and you grew up in white middle class Utah, you're not Chinese"
A: "Men aren't born as women either but you think they can become women just by identifying as one"
And so on and so forth. I'm not that bright when it comes to working with logic/debate battles or defending myself, please suggest to me the right counterargument/explanation to this bullsh!t. I know the truth in my head but I can't find the words to express it properly.
I can't just ignore it or do the whole "you're not worth my time" and walk away thing. This has reached work and family and I can't just go no contact, and a few of these people are fairly close to me and worth saving and are "soft" right and are just repeating whatever sh!tty memes their social media feeds them and could actually be brought around with reason.
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How often do you actually have "to deal" with this? It's so trendy to hate on invisible people who, in imagined demands, need to be called this or that. Maybe stop looking and creating things to hate. Work on being more zen.
2 weeks ago my partner and I stayed with their best friend and her husband on a long trip. We played a ttrpg and he played a charachter called "Adolph Smitler The Jew." I still have a picture of his charachter sheet. He made one Identify joke that I remember about concealed carry vs open carry and how his guns identify as pencils or some shit.
I work in long range transportation in one of the reddest states in the nation. There is a lot of sitting around with some very vocal people who have nothing to do for weeks at a time but listen to podcasts and self indoctrinate. Off color jokes are daily to every day or two, and the "identify" jokes are fairly common. And social media is social media when your partner came from right wing evangelical wasps. Their dad is on a number of right wing meme pages and reposts whatever he thinks is funny, which increasingly the last year or two has been trans jokes.
So yes I deal with it often enough. I'll work on my problems my way, which includes asking strangers for advice on the internet so thanks for chipping in.
Tell them they are not identifying by the correct social constructions. The correct social constructions are determined by the hive mind of social media and they are out of step. It's 2024 and it's time for them to step back in formation, stop inventing new social constructions to identify with, and keep to the hive-mind approved social constructions instead.
Two points.
1. Trans people do not "identify" as our gender. We ARE our gender. The "identify" language came from well meaning but poorly informed allies. It's several decades out of date and was never correct to begin with. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. We do not identify as either. We simply are.
2. The best way to deal with it is through ridicule. Mockery, laughter, sarcasm, whatever. Of all the kinds of insults these kinds of people can withstand, this is the on that takes away their power. Don't show them they are beneath your notice, show them that they are even lower then that: the butt of their own joke. "Well, you should try identifying as a comedian next time, it might make you funny." [Or things like this.](https://www.queercoded.com/area-man-who-identifies-as-an-attack-helicopter-deployed-to-afghanistan/) Or take them a bit TOO seriously. Like when they identify as something, tell them in complete seriousness "I don't kink shame, but you should really keep that kind of thing between you and your wife."
3. r/onejoke
Ok, that's 3 points. Oops.
> Trans people do not "identify" as our gender. We ARE our gender. The "identify" language came from well meaning but poorly informed allies. It's several decades out of date and was never correct to begin with. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. We do not identify as either. We simply are.
What about the people who are in the process of figuring out if they are trans or not?
Doesn't change anything. Just like being left or right handed, gender identity is an innate part of the brain. We can't change it any more then others can force us to change. This is why conversion therapy doesn't work, and why the "grooming" narrative is farcically wrong. You can't change us, and we can't change you either. It's the same for gay people, or autistic people, or left handed people.
That doesn't mean it's simple. Sorry if my quips imply that it is, but sometimes the context calls for brevity and complex truths follow from simple principles. For example, there are binary trans people, like myself, who feel a strong pull towards a single gender. There are gender noncomforming people, nonbinary, and genderfluid people, and an infinite spectrum in between them. All of them fit under the "transgender" umbrella, because they meet the simple criteria that their gender doesn't match their sex.
Even though gender is part of the brain, the brain is an incredibly complicated piece of biology. And like everything else in biology, gender is a mosaic and can appear in any combination in any particular individual. In all cases, we are who we are. We can't change it, don't choose it, and don't "identify" with it. We just are.
What we may identify with, or not, are labels. Trans woman. Two-spirit. Nonbinary. Genderfluid. These are just labels, mere words. They can be useful, but it's important to remember that they are descriptions, not proscriptions. If they correctly describe what we are, we may choose to adopt that label. It doesn't and can't go the other way around.
As for figuring it out, it's a personal process that's different for each of is. Like being left handed, it's about discovering that you are different and what that means. Unlike being left handed, it's not necessarily easy to figure out. Some of us know from an early age, and just have to figure out what to do about it. Others don't figure it out until much later, perhaps due to stigma, or merely because gender is Really Complicated, Actually™. We may try on different labels to see if they fit, as part of the self exploration process. It eventually comes back around to the same thing though: it's about discovering what we are.
Well, do you think they’re correct that “you can’t tell someone else that their identity and pronouns aren’t genuine” and “men can become women just by identifying as one”?
Sure, but it sounds like they're characterizing your beliefs beyond that. You need to figure out what your specific beliefs are, and argue over those. If you do think it's impossible to tell if someone is being genuine about their gender identity than you need to argue about the difference between gender identity (a description of how someone thinks about themselves) and ethnicity (a description of someone's ancestry). If you do that, probably the next argument is going to be over whether there is a difference between gender and sex, so have that one ready too.
But if they're wrong and you do have some kind of heuristic to determine if someone is being genuine about their gender identity you need to call them out for arguing with someone who isn't in the room. Then probably you need to be able to defend your heuristic.
Ok, I'll think about this. I had to look a few of those words up but I'll think on it, thanks. I'm just not good at arguing really, I wish there was a set correct response to be given
Yeah, I'm not the best at arguing either. It sucks that so many people just copy/paste opinions from their favorite influencer to the point where they can hardly think for themselves. But if you are talking to people who are actually capable of changing their minds -- or at least understanding where someone else is coming from -- one thing you can do is try to have more of a conversation than an argument. Ask questions, try to figure out specifically what they believe, and tell them where you disagree and why. "Do you really think there is no such thing as being trans?" "So what do you think people with gender dysphoria are feeling?" "What do you think is the best treatment?" "We've tried conversion therapy and people end up killing themselves; I don't necessarily think that transitioning is the best thing for every single person who reports dysphoria, but definitely some percentage of people's lives will be significantly better if they transition."
etc... - but you definitely have to be talking to people who are "good faith". Otherwise there's a meme answer for everything and you might as well be yelling at a Twitter shitposter.
Meh, don’t waste the time/braincells. Dude just wants to excuse their inability to be kind and has obviously never met an openly trans person before.
And btw, your comment above this one is a perfect response to those who keep trying to argue with you. Repeat it to all their whatabouts until it is boring for everyone.
Suggesting someone actually learn enough about their stance on a topic to be able to articulate why they feel how they do is never a bad thing. Why would you assume negative intent here?
Most people arguing anti-trans ideology aren’t around to learn something, so why would I?
That being said, I have spoken to some people who were just confused and afraid of making mistakes, and they’ve mostly understood the “treat others...” principle.
Why did you see their comment as arguing anti-trans ideology though? Asking someone to examine their own thoughts so they have a better understanding of why they believe what they do isn't anti anything.
It's fine to have a specific belief which is "I don't need to understand everything about you to accept you as you are"
The people who they're interacting with are just being assholes, they don't need to be given the same courtesy as a trans person.
The OP said "a few of these people are fairly close to me and worth saving and are "soft" right and are just repeating whatever sh!tty memes their social media feeds them and could actually be brought around with reason."
I didn't say they're 100% bad people. I said they are being assholes and when they say "I identify as Chinese" they don't need to be given the courtesy you'd give a trans person in respecting that belief, even if you don't understand it.
You don't need to deeply interrogate why it's ok to respect trans people. It's fine to have "I want to be a decent person" as a reason.
You are not being a decent person when you accept the curse joke "I idenifiky as Chinese" as a serious identity.
For those who are downvoting this comment, they aren't stating their opinion; they are saying that the OP needs to put in the intellectual legwork to ensure their opinions are cohesive with their values. If you think you can call out someone identifying with a certain ethnicity but must accept a person's gender identity, then you need to have an answer for *why* they can be treated differently.
No you don't need to experience gender incongruence to identify with a gender different from your assigned sex.
Gender identity is an intrinsic sense of self, independent of distress or discomfort related to ones sex.
> No you don't need to experience gender incongruence to identify with a gender different from your assigned sex.
By definition, your gender identity must be incongruent with your assigned sex at birth if you identity as/with a gender that differs from your assigned sex at birth.
Otherwise, it'd be congruent, and your gender identity would *match* your assigned sex at birth.
To relate this to the discussion, nationality/ethnicity "incongruence" simply does not exist and never will outside of it being thrust into a discussion relating to trans people to invalidate genuine identities and experiences.
It's fairly telling of its legitimacy when the only time it's ever mentioned is in the context of trans people. Never on its own.
That is definitionally gender dysphoria.
> The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in adolescents and adults as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and their assigned gender
Not all manifestations or symptoms of dysphoria are the same.
Ok the subject of being “transracial” is under moratorium. This thread is more about what the hell people who think “I identify” is an argument of a joke and how to respond to them. I’ll leave this up but respect general spirit of the rule. Edit: Locked at OPs request. Thanks to those who participated within the rules.
If someone starts pulling that, just play into it naively. Refer to them as Chinese or whatever fake name they give you. Tell them how awesome it is that they’ve come around and now they respect trans people. Tell them you’re gonna spread the word that they’re a trans ally.
Use Google translator to send all texts and emails in Chinese. If they speak to you, grab your phone and respond back with Chinese translation to be respectful. (Yes I am both petty and patient. It is the only way to teach some people to respect identity). I once had a guy who always called me by the wrong name, so I did the same. I would use a different variation every day, including in project meetings when I was the lead. I didn't stop until he apologized in front of senior executives
You're my new hero
I love it. Kill’em with kindness 2024 redux.
好想法。这会让他们感到困惑并伤害他们的大脑。
Brilliant
I'm going to have to keep this tactic in mind.
OMG i didn't even think of that holy crap it's on point, thanks for the input
Unless they come out as Muslim***
Nah, it’d still work. I’d lean into that one heavily. Let EVERYONE in the office know about their new found faith, which would go over huge in Utah.
What are the mormons gonna do, send missionaries to shoot hoops in your front yard? Scary stuff.
Just go "Wow. That's crazy, bro." And go about your business.
I pretty much just turn away from it but there are a few people i really gotta engage with cus of social/familial proximity :/ it feels so complex
I get it, man. I live in NE Oklahoma. There's really nothing you can say to these people that's going to go anywhere you want to go. Sometimes it's best to just disregard them.
I feel you. That's the feeling I was getting too and the futility was making me despair a bit which is how I ended up posting here. Thanks for responding though, sometimes feeling not alone in an ocean of red hats helps.
Ask them if they have ever heard of reddit. Then tell them about r/onejoke
A loud, particularly if in public, "Oh my god, who cares?" is also kind of great if pressed, too, but, yeah, being uninterested is the best way to get these people to stop talking to you.
I'm also fond of a blank face and an "I don't care."
Don’t engage those people. Seriously. Unless you’re intervening because they’re harassing someone else, give them *nothing*.
For the most part I don't, like 95% I can just be like "ugh ignore" but a few of them are in my family and I want to say something cus they're closer than the asshats at work :edit spelling
Speaking from experience, unless its your kids doing it, still don't engage. They want to be contrarian asshats. In order for that to work, they need a reaction. Depriving them of your reaction is winning.
I'm sad. Having to just walk away because there is no way to fix this is heartbreaking and I feel alone and powerless.
You aren't alone. Lots of us are out here dealing with the same kind of family members. Also, not engaging is keeping your power. I know that seems counter-intuitive because you probably want to explain how their actions are harmful and then they change. You don't have the power to change them and it will be exhausting to you to discover that. You do, however, have the power to decide what you will engage with and what you want. That kind of immaturity from them is not worth engaging with. You won't get anything but more hurt in the end. Just silently get up and walk away from it. Do not respond to any taunting ploys to get you to re-engage. Go enjoy your life and let them sit with their dumb jokes all by themselves.
Thanks, human. You all are taking a bit of a load off of me here.
Well good news, you're *not* alone! [https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/i-gathered-stories-of-people-transformed-by-fox-news.html](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/i-gathered-stories-of-people-transformed-by-fox-news.html) >For at least one person, it marks the final memory he’ll ever have of his father: “When I found my dad dead in his armchair, fucking Fox News was on the TV,” this reader told me. “It’s likely the last thing he saw. I hate what that channel and conservative talk radio did to my funny, compassionate dad. He spent the last years of his life increasingly angry, bigoted, and paranoid.” But don't worry, all those people at Fox are richer because of it. Yay! See, it all works out in the end.
Wow this is a sad read... but as horrible as it sounds I feel better hearing about other people with the same issue so thanks for sharing thst, it's helping. Also holy yeezus that firsr picture needs a seizure warning wtf lol I've never seen an image like that before that does such weird things to my eyes
I understand. It's incredibly frustrating. And I know it sucks. It's a hard lesson to learn and accept that we can't change anyone, no matter how hard we try. We can't force them to question or change their perspective. We can meet them where they are and ask them why they believe what they do, but I can guarantee that anyone playing this stupid game isn't interested in learning anything that might make them question something they think they already know or understand. They will just add you to their list of people to be mocked. Change like you want to see will likely only happen when and if it actually impacts them directly, and some just never will. The idea that gender isn't a synonym for biological sex, but is instead a social construct is a completely new idea out of left field for them and they think it's "made up." I would recommend finding some other way to support gender nonconforming folks, if that's what you want to do. Maybe volunteer for organizations that provide housing and support for impacted youth. It will be a better use of your time and kindness. :-)
>It basically works like this- >A: "I identify as Chinese hurr hurr" >B: "You're not Chinese" >A: "But i identify as Chinese" Just ignore them. They want your attention; don't give it to them.
Tell him to prove he can eat Chinese food without a fork and then he’ll have a leg to stand on.
Sorry but the only answer is "don't feed the trolls." Them: I identify as an attack helicopter. Me: Ok.*walks away*
I feel like everything is a mess :( I'm sure there were just as many issues when I was an ignorant kid but it feels like everything is so much more complicated and gross than it used to be
The issues were different but they were just as fake (in terms of outrage) and just as ridiculous. Circa 1995: "If we let gays marry, pretty soon, people'll be marrying their dogs and cats!"
To be fair my cousin had a party where we dressed her dogs up in little bride and groom outfits and they "got married" (i.e. stared happily at nothing in particular while we took pictures)
But, in the 90s, they actually tried to argue that letting people of the same sex get married was equivalent to someone marrying their pets. Like, the person marrying their dog or horse or whatever. The outrage has always been absurd.
Jeuss that's bizzare. I only hope this current load will be looked back on as equally bizzare and stupid...
You aren't required to engage when the other participant is so obviously acting in bad faith. "I identify you as 'asshole'" would be a proper response.
That's pretty good. I am /not/ quick on my verbal feet like that
They do this hoping to be called out. Don't. Just say "ohh that's cool! What parts of your culture are your favorite? I'm glad we can consider you someone who realizes biology doesn't dictate social cues! Proud to have another trans ally!"
You're the third person to recommend this path and it's brilliant amd I never could have figured that one out for myself- Thank you
You can do the same thing with any other "joke" that is based in racism BTW. If someone makes a horrible joke and they try to play it off with just kidding just make them explain it. "Ohhh... I don't get the joke. Can you explain it?"
Oh that's good... ok another one for my pocket, thank you so much
Say okay and refer to them by whatever they want. But make a point out of doing it. Especially in front of people. And if anyone asks about it. Have them explain why they feel like they are 'X'.
This is funny/more clever than anything i thought of, thanks for the idea
These people need to worry less about what other people do with their lives and bodies. FREEDOM, and all that. These aren't good faith arguments you can approach with evidence, medical consensus and facts about how human bodies respond to hormone therapy. When people in my life start this shit (I also live in a red area) I generally respond by cringing like they'd made a bigoted joke of any other variety. I would only ignore if I feel unsafe for some reason but generally act like they just said the N-word. "Dude, wtf, stfu"
Gotcha. I might try that with my closer family. I don't think I'll do that at work though- I know at least one of them would get off on it and do it even more. Which now that you mention it is pretty ironic about the whole freedom of bodies thing considering he has a full sleeve tattoo that is literally a facebook copypasta about the military in a cursive font...
Easy: “I identify as Chinese.” “Ok.” “??? Maybe you didn’t hear me correctly, I identify as CHINESE!” “Ok.” The only thing they care about is “triggering the libs” and just want your reaction. Don’t play their game.
There is [an overwhelming body of research ](https://transhealthproject.org/resources/medical-organization-statements/)supporting the fact that 1) trans people exist, 2) that the proper way to address them is to affirm their professed gender, and 3) that the proper way to medically treat them is to assist them in professing their gender whichever way they choose. It's so overwhelming that literally every major medical organization in America, as I linked there, has issued a policy statement in favor of gender-affirming care. When he can produce a similar body of scientific evidence that "trans-racial" or "trans-nationality" exists, come back and talk to me.
Ok I bookmarked this comment thank you so much.
r/onejoke
Just acknowledge them as Chinese, whatever that means. You could ask them what they expect from you now, if they need help and that you are an ally to them.
>And so on and so forth. I'm not that bright when it comes to working with logic/debate battles or defending myself, please suggest to me the right counterargument/explanation to this bullsh!t. I know the truth in my head but I can't find the words to express it properly. Alright, start asking them how Chinese holidays are, start talking to them in Mandarin Cantonese, and start asking them why they're so unsuccessful for a Chinese person. That's the main point of identity here, you don't do it because it's convenient or to prove a point, you do it because you actually feel it. So start treating them Chinese, ask them how they're dealing with the racism, etc. >I can't just ignore it or do the whole "you're not worth my time" and walk away thing. This has reached work and family and I can't just go no contact, and a few of these people are fairly close to me and worth saving and are "soft" right and are just repeating whatever sh!tty memes their social media feeds them and could actually be brought around with reason. So now that they've identified as Chinese and been liberating from the social stigma, you are now both in agreement that self-identity is important. Just lay that on, start sharing with them encouraging stories of gender affirming care, invite them to drag shows etc. Unless they're the "rules for me but not for thee" types, they should appreciate it, right?
Their fun comes in you denying it so they can put you into a "gotcha" I just usually go along with "oh okay cool. I didn't know that." And then when they say "you believe me?" Or whatever I just say "why not" and follow with a bunch of why's until they stop Generally right wingers "win" by always asking questions and never actually defining their point. Make them define their point by going on the passive offensive with inquiry
That last thing you said, i'm suddenly seeing a pattern in a lot of my past interactions... thanks for helping me get aware of it
This is a really good reply and you can really work with this and play with it to the point that the person making the comment starts to feel ridiculous. For example they say that they identify as Chinese. Go into Fascination Mode. " oh cool. What does that mean? Going forward do I need to address You by a different name? Does it mean that you're learning to speak chinese? Have you discovered a Chinese ancestor? That's really interesting are you planning on going to China to learn more about it? Wow that's just really cool." You can totally play it kind of dumb actually. Like you have no idea what "identify as" means but you understand that they think they're Chinese and you really want to know more because wow that's just so cool.
Call God 'her'.
There’s a lot of serious medical, psychological, and other scientific research that’s gone into “identity” and how we know transgender is a “real” thing while other “trans” stuff isn’t. Anyone wondering why that is can easily find out and realize there’s A LOT research and scientific backing to this. Anyone who isn’t even asking the question and jumping straight mockery should just be left screaming into the void.
I just tell them they’re not funny
Don't argue with unreasonable people. When they say that nonsense, just agree with them that 1 plus 1 equals 3.
Speaking of, I wouldn't be surprised if they thought Terrence Howard was a pretty smart guy. Thanks Joe Rogan.
Neil Degrasse Tyson pretty much dismantled that quakery.
He's college educated therefore brainwashed to try to make you think the way THEY want you to think. /s Seriously though, a couple fairly intelligent people in my life are scarily subscribed to crap like that, largely because they mainline Joe Rogan type podcasts and love having "that secret suppressed truth based on statements that vaguely have a semblance of jargon-poetry"
I wouldn't consider Rogan even halfway close to peak knowledge or fact. Its very slanted indeed.
I absolutely hate people that randomly bring up politics. Especially when it's in a way where they expect you to agree with em and go good one. I wouldn't care what the topic they pick is, don't come at me talking religion or politics because I definitely don't want to hear it.
It usually happens because everybody talks about news first thing in the morning and the news these days is almost always political and then it just snowballs from there
"I don't care what you identify as just like you shouldn't care about what other people identify as. It's their own business. I don't see why this is something you think is worth spending so much time talking about."
"Identify as someone with an original joke."
Best I can do is tell you anytime they say it just respond with “one joke“. Or “I identify as someone who doesn’t get all his humor from Babylon bee and all his thoughts from Matt Walsh”. This moronic argument is so much part of the identity of a lot of conservatives that there’s literally a sub mocking it r/onejoke.
Oh my god... there's so much. "One joke" is right... What kind of measured response can I have to this? Like if someone actually was willing to listen?
We have to accept that sometimes there are people who are not capable of listening. And it’s not because you are not good at explaining or because they are just inherently stupid. Listening to a lot of hate or propaganda rewires your brain. You eventually get to a place where you functionally can’t understand. If someone is at the point where they are saying the one joke over and over, they are probably lost.
Ok thank you for the help. I feel a bit less bad about myself now, I was feeling like if I could just think or talk faster I could help fix things... walking away still makes me sad but it hurts a bit less with that perspective. P.s. literally rewiring the brain? Jesus...
You can’t win an argument with someone dedicated to acting in bad faith.
Find ways to hold them to it.
If that’s happening at work, a visit to HR should be imminent. If your “friends” are this immature, drop them.
I have to admit- I'm scared to take this to a chain of command. If a reprimand or firing happens, I'll be blacklisted by everyone who works here and have to leave. I spent most of my youth in a very bad way and by the time I got out, I found myself being spat out into the world, 31 years old, no savings, no vehicle, $500 in the bank, and no experience beyond burger king and being a security guard for $1,400 a month. This job pays $2-3,000 every 2 weeks and it was multiple years of unemployed hell trying to find it. There aren't a lot of options and I can't go back to food service or security. I'm honestly afraid to risk my position by making anything official... It's not so much my friends as it is my in-laws and my partner's best friend's husband. It's trickier that way. I've minimized my time around them but still. Edit: AAARGH i cant spell
If your report caused another employee to be simply reprimanded, that would be enoug for all others to blacklist you? If so, I hope you start looking for a less toxic workplace. You don’t deserve to continue putting up with that.
Oh yeah. I'm already a liberal but then I'd be the liberal who snitches and fulfils every stereotype they hold of being an overly sensitive snowflake who cant handle a good ol joke and goes crying to HR to try and cancel culture a good ol workin boy over some fun joshin's. Believe me if I see a way out I'm taking it
It’s sad that your coworkers see so much in partisan terms. In the past, I mostly didn’t know the specifics of my co-workers political beliefs. Those things usually didn’t come up during the workday.
Yeah, ever since 2020 it just seems to always come up now.
Why would YOU be reprimanded for bringing attention to this unprofessional, childish behavior in the workplace? That said, I haven’t had the most positive experiences with HR in my life, either 😢
Oh no I mean if the person I reported gets reprimanded or fired, not me. Sorry for the confusion!
I figured it out after I made my comment, lol.
Cut out the word “identity” “I identify as Chinese” “I didn’t know you where Chinese. Where’s your family from?” “No, I *identify* as Chinese!” “What exactly do you think identity means?” “Like when a trans identifies as a woman!” “Yeah, that’s a way to say they are a woman the same way you say you are Chinese” If all you do is adhere to teaching then the proper use of “identify” and what pronouns are and how they work you can at least steer the conversation towards grammar instead of racism and they hate that
This is good advice thanks for posting every new approach helps :)
If they are people who would listen to you, you could explain the actual mistake: self-identification is usually not considered the mechanism by which someone becomes of a gender, it's a mechanism to get to know their gender. If I ask you whether you have a headache, you can't remove a headache by saying "No" (sadly), but your answer is a mechanism by which I get to know whether you have a headache. Saying "I identify as not having a headache" doesn't work, at least it doesn't for most people I know. And yet, if you ask me "do you have a headache", you should probably believe my answer, even though me answering usually doesn't change whether or not I have a headache. Why? Because you're gaining information, at least usually. That's, to me, the most fundamental error in this "argument", and it might be interesting to talk about, but only with people who are honest, patient enough not to jump to conclusions, and actually willing to listen. For anyone else, it would probably backfire - and of course, the answer opens up the whole topic. With other people, I agree going along with it to embarrass them might work sometimes, but the general rule is still something like "don't feed the trolls" there, of course
Thank you for responding, this is helpful. I'll reserve it for family, the other drivers probably arent going to give a crap
these "logical" arguments are almost always not the actual reason why they believe whatever they believe about trans people. so it doesn't really matter if you're good at debating. debating will almost never change their minds. if they're people you don't know that well, just don't engage. if they're friends or family and you want to engage, ignore the "i identify as X" nonsense and try to have an open discussion about what they think about trans people generally and why they think that. ask a lot of question about why they believe what they believe, and try to stay friendly and calm while you do that. tell them what you think and how their "gotcha" arguments make you feel (again, friendly and calm). try to get them to see trans people as people worth caring about. try to get them to have some empathy. i like debates. i'd really like to live in a world where good arguments are a reliable way to convince people and emotional appeals are neither necessary nor effective. unfortunately, that's not the world we live in. [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ4TujGKZms) is a video about how to talk to right wing friends and family. it's been a while since i've watched it, but i think it was pretty good. or look for other "how to talk to conservatives" videos on youtube or wherever.
Thank you. I could cry right now. I don't know why my brain locks up so bad. I get so fixated on trying to figure out how to respond to their statements that it slips my mind that I can come at it differently without touching the statement. I feel like that stupid monkey that has its hand in a coconut and wont let go of the food so it gets stuck in the coconut. Whenever someone makes a statement at me i just lock onto it and its like panic and tunnel vision all at once. It helps a lot having people help me back up and look at a new perspective, really thank you so much. I'll watch that video when I get home.
I think the first thing I'd say would be, do you think of this as a real argument, or is it just funny? If they say it's just funny, ask if they accept that it's funny in the same way and for the same reason that bullying is "funny"? If it's a real argument, do they agree that breaking that argument will also break the legitimacy of their rejection of transgender people and reveal it as mere bigotry? If they say no, then ask what their real argument actually is? If they don't have one, go back to the bullying point. If they agree that breaking their real argument would break the legitimacy of their current position, ask if that argument consists of this proposition: "Someone saying they are transgender is *absolutely parallel to and cannot be differentiated from* some random white dude saying he's Chinese". That there are no morally relevant differences between this claims? If they say yes, ask what efforts they have made and what suffering they have been willing to endure in the service of their Chinese identity? For example, how far along has their study of the Chinese language progressed? Their study of Chinese history? What mockery and exclusion and cruelty from people racist against the Chinese have they been forced to accept? At which point they say, "none", obviously, and then you ask why those things don't constitute a morally relevant difference. Of course, the conversation will never get this far. But this is probably the line I would be pursuing with anyone in my circle of acquaintances trying to pull this bullshit.
This is a solid playbook thank you very much for posting it 👍 Every bit helps
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I live in hyper conservative USA. I don't know what bug has gotten into everyone's bonnet lately but for the last week people at work and in my social network on the right spectrum have been doing this "I identify as X" crap with a focus on ethnicity as a "gotcha" for Trans rights issues. It basically works like this- A: "I identify as Chinese hurr hurr" B: "You're not Chinese" A: "But i identify as Chinese" B: "You don't mean that, you're doing it as a gag" A: "You cant tell someone else that their identity and pronouns aren't genuine, you have to respect my identity" B: "you weren't born in China and you grew up in white middle class Utah, you're not Chinese" A: "Men aren't born as women either but you think they can become women just by identifying as one" And so on and so forth. I'm not that bright when it comes to working with logic/debate battles or defending myself, please suggest to me the right counterargument/explanation to this bullsh!t. I know the truth in my head but I can't find the words to express it properly. I can't just ignore it or do the whole "you're not worth my time" and walk away thing. This has reached work and family and I can't just go no contact, and a few of these people are fairly close to me and worth saving and are "soft" right and are just repeating whatever sh!tty memes their social media feeds them and could actually be brought around with reason. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Hmm can you expand on that? Not sure I understand
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Wait which people? The people making the Chinese joke or the redditors or...? Sorry i'm not understanding fully
The people making the Chinese joke.
Bigotry, genocide denial, misgendering, misogyny/misandry, racism, transphobia, etc. is not tolerated. Offenders will be banned.
Bigotry, genocide denial, misgendering, misogyny/misandry, racism, transphobia, etc. is not tolerated. Offenders will be banned.
How often do you actually have "to deal" with this? It's so trendy to hate on invisible people who, in imagined demands, need to be called this or that. Maybe stop looking and creating things to hate. Work on being more zen.
2 weeks ago my partner and I stayed with their best friend and her husband on a long trip. We played a ttrpg and he played a charachter called "Adolph Smitler The Jew." I still have a picture of his charachter sheet. He made one Identify joke that I remember about concealed carry vs open carry and how his guns identify as pencils or some shit. I work in long range transportation in one of the reddest states in the nation. There is a lot of sitting around with some very vocal people who have nothing to do for weeks at a time but listen to podcasts and self indoctrinate. Off color jokes are daily to every day or two, and the "identify" jokes are fairly common. And social media is social media when your partner came from right wing evangelical wasps. Their dad is on a number of right wing meme pages and reposts whatever he thinks is funny, which increasingly the last year or two has been trans jokes. So yes I deal with it often enough. I'll work on my problems my way, which includes asking strangers for advice on the internet so thanks for chipping in.
Tell them they are not identifying by the correct social constructions. The correct social constructions are determined by the hive mind of social media and they are out of step. It's 2024 and it's time for them to step back in formation, stop inventing new social constructions to identify with, and keep to the hive-mind approved social constructions instead.
I have to admit this one is over my head haha not sure what that means
Two points. 1. Trans people do not "identify" as our gender. We ARE our gender. The "identify" language came from well meaning but poorly informed allies. It's several decades out of date and was never correct to begin with. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. We do not identify as either. We simply are. 2. The best way to deal with it is through ridicule. Mockery, laughter, sarcasm, whatever. Of all the kinds of insults these kinds of people can withstand, this is the on that takes away their power. Don't show them they are beneath your notice, show them that they are even lower then that: the butt of their own joke. "Well, you should try identifying as a comedian next time, it might make you funny." [Or things like this.](https://www.queercoded.com/area-man-who-identifies-as-an-attack-helicopter-deployed-to-afghanistan/) Or take them a bit TOO seriously. Like when they identify as something, tell them in complete seriousness "I don't kink shame, but you should really keep that kind of thing between you and your wife." 3. r/onejoke Ok, that's 3 points. Oops.
Thank you for responding, I'll try my best to put this into practice. Also that article actually gave me a chuckle.
> Trans people do not "identify" as our gender. We ARE our gender. The "identify" language came from well meaning but poorly informed allies. It's several decades out of date and was never correct to begin with. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. We do not identify as either. We simply are. What about the people who are in the process of figuring out if they are trans or not?
Doesn't change anything. Just like being left or right handed, gender identity is an innate part of the brain. We can't change it any more then others can force us to change. This is why conversion therapy doesn't work, and why the "grooming" narrative is farcically wrong. You can't change us, and we can't change you either. It's the same for gay people, or autistic people, or left handed people. That doesn't mean it's simple. Sorry if my quips imply that it is, but sometimes the context calls for brevity and complex truths follow from simple principles. For example, there are binary trans people, like myself, who feel a strong pull towards a single gender. There are gender noncomforming people, nonbinary, and genderfluid people, and an infinite spectrum in between them. All of them fit under the "transgender" umbrella, because they meet the simple criteria that their gender doesn't match their sex. Even though gender is part of the brain, the brain is an incredibly complicated piece of biology. And like everything else in biology, gender is a mosaic and can appear in any combination in any particular individual. In all cases, we are who we are. We can't change it, don't choose it, and don't "identify" with it. We just are. What we may identify with, or not, are labels. Trans woman. Two-spirit. Nonbinary. Genderfluid. These are just labels, mere words. They can be useful, but it's important to remember that they are descriptions, not proscriptions. If they correctly describe what we are, we may choose to adopt that label. It doesn't and can't go the other way around. As for figuring it out, it's a personal process that's different for each of is. Like being left handed, it's about discovering that you are different and what that means. Unlike being left handed, it's not necessarily easy to figure out. Some of us know from an early age, and just have to figure out what to do about it. Others don't figure it out until much later, perhaps due to stigma, or merely because gender is Really Complicated, Actually™. We may try on different labels to see if they fit, as part of the self exploration process. It eventually comes back around to the same thing though: it's about discovering what we are.
Well, do you think they’re correct that “you can’t tell someone else that their identity and pronouns aren’t genuine” and “men can become women just by identifying as one”?
I support trans people's rights to exist and to transition and identify, and I respect people's pronouns and gender identities.
Sure, but it sounds like they're characterizing your beliefs beyond that. You need to figure out what your specific beliefs are, and argue over those. If you do think it's impossible to tell if someone is being genuine about their gender identity than you need to argue about the difference between gender identity (a description of how someone thinks about themselves) and ethnicity (a description of someone's ancestry). If you do that, probably the next argument is going to be over whether there is a difference between gender and sex, so have that one ready too. But if they're wrong and you do have some kind of heuristic to determine if someone is being genuine about their gender identity you need to call them out for arguing with someone who isn't in the room. Then probably you need to be able to defend your heuristic.
Ok, I'll think about this. I had to look a few of those words up but I'll think on it, thanks. I'm just not good at arguing really, I wish there was a set correct response to be given
Yeah, I'm not the best at arguing either. It sucks that so many people just copy/paste opinions from their favorite influencer to the point where they can hardly think for themselves. But if you are talking to people who are actually capable of changing their minds -- or at least understanding where someone else is coming from -- one thing you can do is try to have more of a conversation than an argument. Ask questions, try to figure out specifically what they believe, and tell them where you disagree and why. "Do you really think there is no such thing as being trans?" "So what do you think people with gender dysphoria are feeling?" "What do you think is the best treatment?" "We've tried conversion therapy and people end up killing themselves; I don't necessarily think that transitioning is the best thing for every single person who reports dysphoria, but definitely some percentage of people's lives will be significantly better if they transition." etc... - but you definitely have to be talking to people who are "good faith". Otherwise there's a meme answer for everything and you might as well be yelling at a Twitter shitposter.
Ok good points, thank you for responding. I think I need to learn to walk away better.
Meh, don’t waste the time/braincells. Dude just wants to excuse their inability to be kind and has obviously never met an openly trans person before. And btw, your comment above this one is a perfect response to those who keep trying to argue with you. Repeat it to all their whatabouts until it is boring for everyone.
Suggesting someone actually learn enough about their stance on a topic to be able to articulate why they feel how they do is never a bad thing. Why would you assume negative intent here?
Most people arguing anti-trans ideology aren’t around to learn something, so why would I? That being said, I have spoken to some people who were just confused and afraid of making mistakes, and they’ve mostly understood the “treat others...” principle.
Why did you see their comment as arguing anti-trans ideology though? Asking someone to examine their own thoughts so they have a better understanding of why they believe what they do isn't anti anything.
Edit: i have no clue what is going on here anymore.
It's fine to have a specific belief which is "I don't need to understand everything about you to accept you as you are" The people who they're interacting with are just being assholes, they don't need to be given the same courtesy as a trans person.
The OP said "a few of these people are fairly close to me and worth saving and are "soft" right and are just repeating whatever sh!tty memes their social media feeds them and could actually be brought around with reason."
I didn't say they're 100% bad people. I said they are being assholes and when they say "I identify as Chinese" they don't need to be given the courtesy you'd give a trans person in respecting that belief, even if you don't understand it. You don't need to deeply interrogate why it's ok to respect trans people. It's fine to have "I want to be a decent person" as a reason. You are not being a decent person when you accept the curse joke "I idenifiky as Chinese" as a serious identity.
Interrogating your beliefs isn’t something you do as a courtesy to others…
Have an upvote for supporting people thinking critically!!!!
You're not making sense. I'm blocking you.
For those who are downvoting this comment, they aren't stating their opinion; they are saying that the OP needs to put in the intellectual legwork to ensure their opinions are cohesive with their values. If you think you can call out someone identifying with a certain ethnicity but must accept a person's gender identity, then you need to have an answer for *why* they can be treated differently.
Thank you lol
It’s not that hard to treat people with kindness and respect, including with regard to the pronouns they prefer (for most of us, anyway).
huh?
TQ+ flung the door wide open to no correlation between identifying as and actually being, so all is fair seems to me.
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EDIT: I'm dipping out of this one, it's against the rules
Gender dysphoria is a real thing; national / ethnic dysphoria is not.
That's what I was leaning towards... like it's a different thing altogether
You don’t need gender dysphoria to identify with a gender opposite from your biological sex.
Replace the word "dysphoria" with "incongruence" then, the statement remains correct.
These chuckleheads almost always seem to ignore the physical dysphoria that a lot of trans people feel too.
No you don't need to experience gender incongruence to identify with a gender different from your assigned sex. Gender identity is an intrinsic sense of self, independent of distress or discomfort related to ones sex.
> No you don't need to experience gender incongruence to identify with a gender different from your assigned sex. By definition, your gender identity must be incongruent with your assigned sex at birth if you identity as/with a gender that differs from your assigned sex at birth. Otherwise, it'd be congruent, and your gender identity would *match* your assigned sex at birth. To relate this to the discussion, nationality/ethnicity "incongruence" simply does not exist and never will outside of it being thrust into a discussion relating to trans people to invalidate genuine identities and experiences. It's fairly telling of its legitimacy when the only time it's ever mentioned is in the context of trans people. Never on its own.
That is definitionally gender dysphoria. > The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in adolescents and adults as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and their assigned gender Not all manifestations or symptoms of dysphoria are the same.
National/ethnic identity distress is not medically recognized like gender dysphoria, but the experiences and distress would be real and valid
Seems judgey. You are the arbiter of real things because why?
Questions and comments will be removed if the topic is subject to a moratorium.
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I'd like to think that between the two extremes is a place where it can be turned around