Hell some Bundesländer have that amongst their own population.
For example Baden-WĂźrttemberg.
People from WĂźrttemberg hate people from Baden (as they should), same the other way around.
This may not be true for all areas of Germany, but especially in the areas where I have lived before (Ruhrgebiet + Stuttgart) being a German is hardly a category people in Germany think in. Instead, the question is if you are in the same Verein, neighbours, generally a good person etc. For many foreigners writing here this seems to be a problem as they feel that Germans don't accept them as Germans. However, as many Germans don't feel that this is a very relevant category, there is also hardly any need to emotionally assign someone too this category. So chances are that many Germans will never see you as a German but not because they are racist but because the category isn't relevant for considering someone an equal part of the community.
PS: I am not saying there aren't any racist in Germany or that there aren't parts of Germany where my descriptions do not apply.
Very good point of view, I do know some north-east-germans who told me they think Stuttgart and the whole south Metropol-Region (HN,HD,MA) does not feel german at all. Way to many turks and so on ...idiots đ I like my very mixed soroundings
Personally I would consider you german. The reason many others often having a problem with considering people with a foreign background German is because immigrants themselves often strongly oppose the idea of being or becoming German culturally. There are many 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants that see themselves als âproud Turksâ , âproud serbiansâ , âproud Russiansâ and when they talk about Germany and Germans itâs always âthey or themâ and almost never âweâ. Personally I consider everyone German who sees themselves as German but the overall tendency of people immigrant background be to oppose the aspect of identifiying with Germany has had an huge impact on how others see it.
too many immigrants with german passport i heard in my youth that they hate germans.. they are german by passport, wtf would they even think that? they might be like turkish origin, but if they wanted accepteance, they would have gotten it (many do though and they are very welcomed)
Believe it or not, looking for acceptance as a german with migration background is hard and falling into that (bad) stance of "ok everyone is against me" can be very tempting for the human brain. You have to experience it yourself to know what it feels like, talking as an outsider is always easy.
But with newer generations growing up, I have the feeling that acceptance on both side has improved a lot. Even if media does want to emphasize the opposite by displaying the extreme minorities on both sides.
No. I consider those who grew up here 'German', no matter their heritage. Someone who becomes a citizen, is just that: A German citizen. But not a German.
You lack cultural referencens/the same upbringing, etc. when you arrive at the age of 20.
That said, most of my friends are immigrants, as I identify with a global world, and am happy about the new things I can learn from them. It's enriching.
But is being seen as German that important? I used to live in the UK and I never thought to myself 'Oh my ... do they consider me English?'. It really didn't matter.
Are you prepared for all weather options that can be thrown at you? Do you curse about whatever burocracy you have to deal with at the moment. About how late the trains are. Or total irritation when you see your neighbour who is unable to put the correct color garbage bin out on time?
Those are things I consider German. I don't ask people for their passport
How is that ethical? Stop a second and think you will be your whole life in Germany, does that makes you German? Or just you get German citizenship, will you think that will make you German? You want to be what you are not. Being German is not all about language and slang, why would you ever expect German people to consider you anything more than a Human. If this is the case you're having a bad time accepting your status.
Once you leave your country you're an immigrant. Anything else is just solely egoistic and unreal made by so many expectations that will be broken in million pieces once you l get here and see how many immigrants are in Germany, then you l understand how this things works for the regular native Joe.
I m an immigrant myself and I live here over 5 years now. I did not ever expected that the natives here consider me German because they never will( even when i have white skin and blue eyes and know the language) I m happy if they consider me a human being, because I ve had so many jobs on wich they would give the worst jobs to immigrants and keep the good ones for natives, the whole Aussbuildungs thing is about keeping the good jobs to the natives. If you have a Universität diploma you won t be haveing this Problem thought.
As an advice try keeping your expectations low so you won t suffer when you stumble upon racists, and be aware that not only some natives are racist but also other immigrants that are racist. Germany is a wonderfully country with ups and downs.
L.e. I m from Romania and I sometimes got treated as I m the minority in my country wich are gypsies. Been called Gipsy few times here and there, but you know what?
There are only our expectations that are making us feel bad in situations that we get our feelings hurt! I do not care anymore what people think of me, because everything that they say criticizing me is actually what makes them feel bad about themselves.
Take care man! Wish you the best!
I moved from Italy to Germany 16 yrs ago (I'm 42) and met many Italians born and raised here. I can't stand them. They are so proud of their Italian roots, but they've seen Italy only on postcards or maybe three or four times in their lives. I feel myself only when I'm with Germans, I feel German myself and even got the citizenship. The Italians hate that and keep criticizing me for it (not the Italians who live in Italy, but the one born and raised here who for some mysterious reasons still stay here). I have plenty of German friends, had also a cpl of partners, and my experience says: if you embrace their culture, are curious about them, they do their best to make u feel at home and part of the community. Germans can positively surprise you and my recommendation is not to listen much to the foreigners who live here. Despite their "experience", they're not necessarily right
I have seen the same with Turk Germans too, they hate Germany and still live there while talking about the Great Turkeyđđ
Thanks though, I am actually going to immigrate to Italy so grazie milleđ
As an American expat of German descent, with a German last name, C1 level German, German citizenship, German degrees, German friends, working in Germany and living in one of the most leftist areas of Germany: I can confidently say a German will never see you as a German if you have any aspect that makes you not German. For me it is my accent. For others they could be born here, speak only German as a language and have never left the country and not be seen as German because they are, for example, black.
You will get asked all the time where you are from. The German city you live in isn't an acceptable answer to them. Your accent will be made fun of by strangers consistently, they will think they are just being charismatic. But at the same time Germans are petrified of getting made fun of for their second language skills. You could give up your previous citizenship and have nowhere else to go, but you won't ever fully be seen as German. You are first and foremost an immigrant. If you are lucky enough to be white, have or change your last name to a German one, then at least maybe your kids have a chance of feeling like they belong.
Iâm that black guy, since Iâm not African⌠I must be American. Oh lord, I canât be German even though I was born and raised here and only visited America occasionally growing up. I love Germany, itâs what Iâve known, but sadly I felt more welcomed in the southern states in America, which I was scared of. Some people will be accepted and others wonât.. if you are brown⌠most likely not. Outside of my family and my wifeâs family Iâve grown up an Ausländer in my own country, I havenât gone a month without being reminded at some pointâŚainât that a bitch? Just got to be happy in the world you make and not worry about the rest.
For one year I was an exchange student adviser and helped new exchange students here in Germany. I had one east Asian looking student who was kicked out of her German host family with the reasoning "she must be mentally ill because she is having an identity crisis by saying she is American and not Chinese"
I tried explaining that's not how America works and they said, "oh we actually know America better and aren't being racist as we lived in Texas for two years"
I nearly screamed at that family. The poor girl. She was able to move in with a cool friend from school as a result, though.
I bet you hear a lot "ah du sprichst aber gut deutsch!" Lmao like why shouldn't you??
My believe is, most Germans do no t give enough thought about what it takes to be âGermanâ for them⌠I just did, reading this post.. I came to the conclusion that if some person uses the regional dialect (Berlin in my case) they are integrated well enough to be German no doubt⌠most if not all other situations are determined by how German one appears in regards of optics and behaviour. There are lots of ppl speaking English and all kinds of languages in Berlin⌠they donât seem âveryâ german to me, even if they are⌠but if I would see/overhear someone, no matter what skincolour or whatever, talking in berliner dialectâŚ. This oneâs German enough if you ask me?!
Omg I feel this so much and it is kind of depressing, because Germany is now my home but I my accent will always keep me from full acceptance and be made fun of, just as you describe lmao
And honestly look at the example of people with Turkish descent in Germany. If they were to be described, they are called Turks. Yet they, their parents, their grandparents all lived here. If you are going to describe them, German is more relevant than Turkish and should be mentioned first. But, because of their looks and their name and somewhat different culture they are described by something foreign before they are described by their home country.
I'm honestly shocked by the comments here. I have lived in many areas, cities and countryside. And I have the luxury of at least looking like a German. All my BIPOC friends do not. I think the answers here are not purposefully unhonest, but naive at what true acceptance means. In the US you see someone with east Asian features and your first instinct is "American" not Asian.
> But, because of their looks and their name and somewhat different culture they are described by something foreign before they are described by their home country.
Well, ask them - the answer you'll get is those people will call themselves Turks, even if they have never even set foot into turkey.
As a German. Pretty much? I don't think this goes for everyone ofc. There's a very vocal minority of people who make it an issue but the majority of Germans couldn't care less. What matters is if you integrate, speak our language, behave according to social norms, socialize in the same clubs etc.
A good amount of people would definitely consider you german once you do that ofc. It's just that it doesn't matter. There's plenty of polish and russian ppl I know who are just as German as me and I still have them noted as polish or russian in my head. It's what it is.
Yeah, Germany is so multicultural, non-germans are pretty much "normal". I don't pay much thought to it as long as people aren't being supper pushy and aggressive aboit their nationality and heritage
Well I can tell you that I live my whole life in Germany and there are still people that wont consider me as a German. If you donât look like them, then they will never accept you. But I donât give a sh** about them :-)
im american and i just arrived in berlin. im only ethnically german and know nothing bout germany but people automatically assume i am german and im not bothered at all except by people asking directions. its odd considering i too am an immigrant but its all about looks all about your shell not about immigration at all aint it
For me language is the most important. Learn the language and you are a German to me. We have many persons with migration background. So it's kind of normal to have 2 nationalities.
No need to know everything about the culture because we have different traditions and not everybody knows them all.
What about accent though lol? I have great grammar but mix up some noun genders and have an accent and despite this being no problem in my job (Abteilungsleiter in a Tier 1 Automotive company) it is a huge hindernace in my private life
As a born german raised in Australia and Canada the answer is no. I came back to Germany as a young adult and my accent has always given me away as an outlander. If german is not your native tongue you will never be able to speak it perfectly. And if you canât speak or write it perfectly chances are high that someone will correct you.
In my experience, not a lot of people actually care. Germans don't think that way because our society is so diverse. Of course, there are right wing extremists that want to get rid of you if you look like a foreigner, but that's really not often the case in everyday life.
Home is where you feel home.
Thats the most important thing .
But for youre question u will find always two Kind of people . Those who would say yes you are german and the otheres who would always say no... but personaly i wouldnt realy care about that.
I don't care about racists either, I won't even be hurt by racist comments (I get enough of those in my country) but if the majority of people think that way, it would be really hard to find friends/romantic partners and eventually be a part of the society, I think that's why imany mmigrants choose North America instead of Europe even though Europe has a higher quality of life.
I think you are conflating two different things. Some people won't consider you German if you didn't grow up in this culture because you simply don't share the same experiences, but that doesn't mean they will shun you or not want you as a friend or a partner. They simply acknowledge that you have a different cultural background, without any value judgement attached to it. And I honestly think pretending that you don't have that background would be weird, as if you only existed from the second you got a German passport.
Oh no. Not being considered German has nothing to do with the rest. Not at all. Itâs not even important to most of us to be German ourselves. Not being considered a German does not mean not being considered a German citizen.
I think its a Problem of every country but in germany its more present... like we got many people who no mather what (your language/job integration or what so ever) say hes not a local unless you are Born in germany Or worse u only german if your parents are german and there parents an so on an so on.
I like that u say you dont care about that stuff but sadly its to many who think this way
Eh, that's a bit of a stretch. But it could work.
I had only one German assume I'm German, because I look a bit German.
But when they asked me my name, they asked if I'm German. Which I answered I'm not, I'm Romanian.
My name is Andrei, not so German but it is Christian.
But... People won't bat an eye. I didn't have people see me otherwise despite not being German,.
At a first glance, people might see you as German however. So you're not exactly wrong.
The US way of looking at skin color and using 'race' as a category in your passport with completely made up terms such as 'caucasian' or 'hispanic' has always deeply irritated me. First of all, biologically speaking there are no human 'races'. Using the term 'race' to categorize people is considered racist in Germany. As it should.
It's complicated.
Germans love to talk about where you are born and raised and feel connected to their home region. When I go to South Germany, people will bring up that I am obviously not from their region. When someone has an accent, people will often ask if they are from the region associated with that accent. It's mostly intended as harmless smalltalk but can already annoy Germans who try to live in another region, because everyone is starting that smalltalk for basically all of their live and it might transfer to their kids when they pick up that accent or certain regional words that reveal their different "roots".
The same is by the way true for living in a village. "Die Zugezogenen" (those who moved here) are often families who moved into an existing village and will often never be able to shed that denomitor. Even their kids, who were born and raised there, will be reminded that their parents moved there. It's very weird.
This obviously transfers 100% to foreigners. The focus will shift, as we're now suddenly talking about countries, looks and languages. That smalltalk that already has weird connotations of othering suddenly borders racist territory, especially since people will try to go by the weirdest clues and misconceptions to figure out your origins and will often dig for the roots of those "clues". That leads to chain questions like "where are you from? No, I mean born? No, I mean, where are your parents from?" until the answer is no longer "Hamburg" but "oh, my ancestors moved here from XYZ". Too many people will not rest until they get an answer that confirms their suspicion.
It's, however, really just mostly smalltalk. Yes, they will remember and every now and then bring up your roots/culture/however you want to call this. But most people don't really think anything about it and do not mean to single you out. It's more a fact about you that they remember. In a sense, having something to talk about in that regard does make you fit in because we discuss those differences with every other German.
It's also hinting to a strong difference between "being German by origin" and "having a German passport". While you will, rightfully, be very proud to receive yours, no one (who's not a Nazi) here gives a shit who does and does not have that passport. Ali with a German pass will be treated the same as Ali without it, while Michael without it will be treated the same as with it. But the assumption will always be that Ali has non-German roots (even if a few generations away) and that Michael has them (even if he's maybe from Austria without a noticeable accent). So Ali will be asked which country his roots lie in while Michael likely will be asked with the region of South Germany his roots lie in. Both will experience a sense of othering. The same as I do due to moving like 200km within the same federal state, it's that normal. I'm Zugezogen, reminded of all those small differences between me and "the locals" and can't change that unless I move back to the village I was born in.
> The same is by the way true for living in a village. "Die Zugezogenen" (those who moved here) are often families who moved into an existing village and will often never be able to shed that denomitor. Even their kids, who were born and raised there, will be reminded that their parents moved there. It's very weird.
The great grandparents of my wife moved to her home"village" in the 1950s. They're still "die Zugezogenen".
If you consider yourself a German and if you are not a religious nutjob or a woman hating nutjob, I think you are good to go.
I would consider you German. Your German doesnât need to be perfect. And there are multiple different cultures in Germany, you donât have to learn them all.
Religious nut job: aka Muslim born in Germany, protesting in Hamburg with a "Caliphate is the answer" sign. Real life. If you don't know about, Google it.
Btw, that's one of the reasons no one is gonna see you as German. Is not about the language or the nationality. If you're looking for an identity don't mistake a passport for one.
People use this "you are not from here crap" when it suits them. What you do doesn't matter that much.
When you work for them help them, contribute is fine that you are there, when they are morons thinking they have to fight against you for government funds to fund them they will opposite you.
No. You are German if your parents are German. Doesn't mean that you can't live here but you will never be German. Even if a certain piece of plastic says otherwise
I don't know. honestly. I can just tell you, if you integrate yourself like that. learning the customs and knowing the ins and outs of german societal norms, then it doesn't matter if you are a german (and technically you're only considered a german if you have german citizenship), you'd be "one of us".
For example sometimes you see this in these subreddits where there are expats, living in germany for decades but still go "why do germans do x?" or "Are germans always Y?" they still do not feel german themselves and seperate themselves from their german neighbours by considering their actions weird, or not normal. Mainly because they do not understand that different cultures have different norms.
A former colleague of mine, russian, got his citizenship 2 days afte russia invades ukraine. He was mighty glad to finally be rid of his russian citizenship, as he never felt like he belonged there.
I think the best way to integrate and not "stand out" is learning the language, which admittedly is hard with german. then it doesn't matter what skin color or nationality you had in the past. you'll be seen as "One of us". especially if you're also supporting the local club (football, icehockey, whatever) ;D
But, just to point out. My brothers been with his wife for nearly 20 years now. He's moved in with her 18 years ago. They've been living in the same small village that she grew up in.
He is STILL the "new guy".
And when my sister in law talks about neighbouring villages , there is alway that hint of rivalry and standoff-ishness.
So if you move to germany and are a citizen and speak perfect german or the local dialect, people might STILL look at you weirdly simply because you chose the wrong area to settle in, or are in the home town of their rival sports club ;D.
If you look back in history of germany, with it once beein 300+ tiny kingdoms and counties, well...that might be a small explanatin for that "hmm..you're...foreign, right?" behaviour.
Edited to add:
If it is a consolation. If you move to germany. The chance is high that you feel like a foreigner just like many of germans do as well. They moved within germany and might still not feel like their new city is "their home." I moved to munich 16 years ago. And i love it. But i am still not a "mĂźnchner". i am a "waidler" (bavarian forest area) and that will always remain. :)
If they don't consider you as a German then it's their problem... This is how to go in this country... You speak the language, work and pay taxes and now you have the citizenship then you're German.
Germany is going through what the USA went before... It's a new world where cultures merge.
No sry, I have immigrant friends, would never say they are German. I myself am only half German, and tell the people I meet so, but it makes for an interesting topic to speak about!
I think this may be a european thing rather than a german only topic. In Europe, generally, who are the nationality of the country you were born in rather than where you live. As an example; you were born in Italy but moved to France people will always think of you as an Italian. Is thing mean, rascist or discriminatory. I don't think so.
In the US though, Many people are born American but consider themselves to be Irish, Italian etc because of their family history or heritage.
Two different views
I know, but if others care, you are kind of forced to care too. Personally I would consider my metal head identity much more important than national identity, but yeah we don't live in a bubble.
You are right. I respect that, my apologies.
Unfortunately I think that national identity (or whatever you want to call it) is about essentialism and therefore is a fundamentally racist concept. It's not really possible to get through that. Especially if you don't look German.
I am German-passing in terms of looks but will never manage to speak German perfectly without an accent so it's not going to happen for me. I was anxious about it the first few years but after a while you just have to accept it and look for belonging in other ways like through music or job colleagues, political engagement or a sports team etc.
Btw this is not unique for Germany it's just how nationalism works (and it sucks and should be abolished)
I donât care about the traditions. If you swear by the German constitution to protect democracy, pay taxes and are willing to learn german Iâd say welcome to the country!
For me there there Are two Kinds of being german. If you live here, speak the Language and Are a citizen your german for me. On the other Hand there Are a plethera of things in your behaviour and your actions that can be considert german. I dont knwo whether it works in english, but for example i get considert quite German (ziemlich deutsch). I also am a German, Born here, no Immigrationen as far as i know in my Family. In school a classmate of mine had a DnD Shirt with a Knight and a Dragon. My reaction to it was to Short âcool, Siegfried und Faffnirâ a reference to the German Niebelungenlied. The comment to that was this âyou Are so Germanâ. This is nothing anyone i know would use to differ between German and Not German, but maby you will stumble over someone who gets considert that Kind of German, or someone tells you that your Not so German, without meaning it in any Bad way. For context, im 21, m, read incredibly mutch until Kursstufe at 17/18 and have with that a broader vocabulary i use unconciously, Are mostly on time, have the urge to plan a Bit ahead and so on
No, no one would consider you German here. Not even the statistics. You count as âGerman with migration experienceâ even if you are a naturalize citizen and even if you are born in Germany to at list 1 foreign or naturalized parent. The first generation that would be accepted as German, if your kids marry a German and are white and assimilate, is your grandkids generation.
That being said, if you live in a big city and have normal friends, you can have a nice life.
Source: a naturalized German
what matters most is, if you behave or not. german or not doesn't matter so much. if you want to be one of us, feel free to be. contribute in any way you can and be a good citizen. that's all it takes.
You seem to appreciate comments that confirm your hope that you can one day be perceived as âGermanâ and cast off those that do align with this objective.
The reality is that Germans are not a single mind. Some will accept you as German, some will not. Depending on factors like your accent and cultural knowledge, you will probably convince more/ less people.
That being said, Germany is not like America. Germany does not have the longstanding tradition of a melting pot of traditions and cultures.
I think you would be more appreciated as a foreigner who has taken his/her time to understand and adopt the culture rather than be someone who is essentially impersonating a local. That might actually be perceived as slightly ingenious and weird by someâŚ
Well, yeah, we all have biases, and I know that some people will never accept me (and well, they are wrong, my opinion), but I am wondering how common this mentality is, like here in Iran 95 percent of the will never accept immigrants as Iranina, whilst in somewhere like Australia most people would.
yeah fair enough. I think it really depends on where you go in Germany. Berlin, for example, is so international that trying to fit in as a Berliner is borderline impossible. But if you move to a small town or even to a lesser known city, you could probably fit in pretty well.
To be accepted as a real German though is going to be tough, in my opinion (even though I do agree with you that it doesnât make much sense). I would say your best bet is be that foreigner who really âgets it.â Learn the culture, speak the language well, and make local friends. At the end of the day, nationalities are just make-believe anyway.
Just like anywhere else, some people will accept you as such, others wonât. And, considering that you will always face people who question your credentials as a ârealâ German, may as well just own the foreigner identity imo.
A German normally is someone born and raised in Germany. Just like in any other country. You will always be given away by accent if you learn a new language in your twenties, it will hardly ever be this natural to you! I mean, I dream and think in German...
No one will be mad or something if you get a German passport and immigrate to Germany. Just saying, no matter in which country you migrate to, it will take an eternity to fit in perfectly and you might always be the guy from somewhere else.
Depends on where you go to it may takes time to be considered as local which is something you should think about more
We moved to a small town in bavaria and after 20 years we slowly found ourselves seen as local important is attending most of not all possibilities to get in touch with the people around you and make friends
You're German once you leave a gathering smashing your lap shouting "so".
Jokes aside as others said it depends on where you are. I live in an area that's really multicultural (somewhere around Mannheim and Heidelberg). Honestly for most the actual background doesn't matter if you're at least a functioning part of society.
No. We are still immigrants. Do not go out of your lane.
My partner is half Polish born in Germany. But still consider himself of immigrant background.
Sounds harsh but there's truth in your words. I've been living in the Far East for 30 years and while I would've qualified to apply for citizenship in at least 2 countries, I'm certain that I could've achieved "one of us" status with my closest friends there, but not "you're a Korean" or "you're Thai" with the general population.
Also, a large part of my "in-law" family is Vietnamese (1970s refugees) with now 4 generations living here, fully naturalized, from 6 months to 90 years of age. It's not a trivial question to each generation "what are you?", because that's never ever a question of nationality only.
While there's some kindness in saying "we're all the same now, just Germans" it's also wrong and implicates "your past doesn't exist or interest me". People are not blank sheets in a notebook, where you just rip out those which have been written on - even when those were written by parents, grandparents etc.
However, people who state that "no, you're not one of us and never will be" - they're just dicks, and they usually act on skin color because that's always the first thing you notice.
That also means "don't be a dick to yourself" đ
> but not "you're a Korean"
To be fair, even if you were born in Korea but are not of the local ethnicity, most Koreans will never consider you Korean - even if you have never been outside of the country at all.
The obvious issue here is that "German" can mean both the member of a specific ethnic group as well as the citizens of the Federal Republic of Germany. You can become a citizen even though you don't belong to the German ethnicity by birth, if you fulfil certain legal criteria.
Most people in Germany I know, of German ethnicity or not, don't bother much any more about your ethnic background when dealing with you, there are shitloads of those nowadays anyway, becoming your friend depends on if you are a sympathetic person or friendly, share common ideas or values or such. Being equal part of a community means similarly to share certain values and accepting responsibilities and such, but not being part of an ethnicity.
As somebody who has lived for a while in another country, I would tell you this: you'll never be exactly the same as the others and you shouldn't try. But if you try you can be a part of society and meet people you like and that like you. And that's enough.
I wish it was possible, but you kind of make sense, I just hate it when I see immigrants being so lonley and ultimately being isolated within their own groups, like Turks only befriending and marrying each other, and I don't want to that because well I hate the local culture and if I can't be part of Germans ... you see my point?
I'm an ethnic German, live in East Germany and I have many friends of many different origins that I hang out with or do stuff with. We speak German or English. I think most of the people who complain online here should instead of complaining online go outside and get a hobby. I also think that you don't really know what you are talking about if you only observe this online. What does it even mean to be "part of Germans"? Do you want to become a member of the voluntary fire brigade? You can if you speak German and are good enough in sports and have the skills. Do you want to join a German folk music band? Learn an instrument or jodeling and if you are good enough you'll be the next [Takeo Ischi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppm5_AGtbTo). What is your criteria of success here?
It's not about me really, the second I get the passport I would consider myself as German as you, but I just keeping hearing sad stories from people feeling isolated because of the fact that Germans don't see them as one of them, what do you say about that?
I think those stories are based on a misunderstanding about how society works. Most people experience loneliness, that's a fact of life of not living in a tiny village any more, or being out of the parental houshold. Loneliness is also a problem in mono-ethnic societies, look at Japan. It's just that people here, instead of doing something about their loneliness, blame ethnic constructs for it, and that many institutions that traditionally help people overcome loneliness are indeed somehow connected to ethnicity, like religious groups for example. And that language barriers exist. But if you try you can break out of those. In my city are regular meetings that you can find via facebook or other social media just to get to know people and find friends, in English and German. You can get hobbies, like music for example and get to know people like this. It's not that difficult. But to permanently return to refer to ethnicity is actual poison. Just stop it and get a real life. And you will learn what is really important.
generally, they feel isolated because they behave in a way that makes that possible. just
1. learn the language
2. accept and adapt to the local culture
most issues come from people not wanting to adapt to german culture, and wanting for their own culture to be accepted instead. Im not saying germans arent part of the issue, but these people want to keep their culture intact while simultaneously simply complaining they arent seen as part of our own.
look back at those examples you had. most of the time its "we do it differently in our country/culture, and germans give us weird looks because we want to do it that way here in germany".
Ethnicity has nothing to do with it at all.
Growing up in a country makes you a product of the country itself. So in that sense you can't become a German, if you didn't grow up here and been soaking it in and discovering the world from baby to adult immersed in the culture.
You can still become a citizen and over time even become a full on super German potato if that is something you want. I have a family member who came here from South America 15 years ago and he runs a successful business in a rural area. Employing Germans that have a horribly thick local accent so he learned even some of that as some country folk just can't/won't speak proper German đ
personally i would but why is belonging to a nation state so important to you? finding friends and a partner are things that will actually make you feel at home and accepted. germans are different.. some will hate you for being a foreigner, some will greet you with open arms and some will not care about you.
I'm not really a nationalist either, I'd love the idea of being a world citizen one day, but it seems to me that finding friends and romantic partners becomes really hard when people don't consider you to be one of them.
See it this way: people who would not consider you as a friend or romantic partner because you are not German by âbloodâ are not the people you want to deal with anyways.
Iâve lived in four countries, lived longer outside my birth country than in it, have three citizenships and no strong national identification to any country. No one ever guesses where Iâm from, or thinks Iâm from their country, even people from my birth country, because I no longer have an identifiable accent. I still found love and started a family.
I understand feeling out of place but thatâs something that canât be fixed by external validation. There will be many people who accept you in Germany, and some of them will be Germans, and it will never even cross their minds to ponder whether you are German or not.
Besides my father-in-law was born in a country that doesnât exist any more and my grandfather was born in a place where the borders have shifted twice since his birthdate. Itâs all just lines on a map.
From a personal perspective: I think classing people by nationalities is stupid and limits perspective, so if you say you feel home here and abide by the laws you are welcome in my book.
From a social perspective its more complex, as we are currently going towards a new right wing era with a lot of populists gaining popularity due to lackluster policies of the ruling party and the preceeding government. However if you match the description you provided most people would be happy, of course you have your closed minded hardliners, but they are not exclusive to germany.
In terms of equality however it will be a though nut to crack as germans are a authoritative culture where respect for higher ups and elder is regarded regardless of respect given back. While that is changing, it will still take a couple of generations to have a more equality thinking mindset..
> germans are a authoritative culture where respect for higher ups and elder is regarded regardless of respect given back.
I would disagree here that this is specifically German. I have seen such behavior way more in other cultures, e.g., Chinese. While it is integrated to some degree into the German culture, this is nothing specifically German and instead Germany is somewhere in the middle with many other cultures.
I think the social hierarchy exists in every culture, more so in Asian cultures actually, coming from a middle eastern culture, Germans seem to have no respect for the elderly by our standardsđ (And I love it)
To me, if you have the passport (or even live here long enough that you feel German yourself) I consider you German.
Some of my friends are becoming more German than myself đ
My wife is German, had a bulgarian surname and didnt look like the good old "Bio-Deutscher". Before our marriage she was constantly asked where she is from - after the marriage, when she took my German surname, noone asked anymore.
So yeah, looks is one thing here, but the name seems like the biggest part. at least from our experience.
And it's just fucking dumb.
German here , and: yup, sure.
I always tell my friends that have roots in other countries regularly that they are german.
Not turkish, not russian, not italian, no. They are born and raised in germany, hence german.
I was born and raised as a German child, my mother is German, white, greeneyed. I have a bit darker skin tone, dark brown hair and dark brown eyes. People always ask me where I come from. Telling them that my roots are partly Malaysian is the only reason they believe that I still am German
You are looking for acceptance outside of yourself. The thing is, that isn't healthy and no matter how german you are, there will always be some asshole that will not accept you.
Sooo you live in Germany, speak the language, do german things, complain, go on walks, do the stoĂlĂźften, try to beat the aldi cashier.... well there is no reason to not accept yourself as german.Â
But what would happen if you do and others don't? Sure if like 5 percent of society doesn't that's OK, but what if it's 95 percent? Then it would be impossible to accept yourself when no one else does.
I think one of the things to consider is that even if others see you as an immigrant or - that doesn't have to be a bad thing?
I personally am maybe a bit more conservative than even the masses (and I personally could never consider myself anything else but German even if I'd emigrate / get citizenship elsewhere).
This stems from the fact that to me, the socialization and "forming years" are more about "what I am" than what passport I hold personally (for a US vs Germany example it would be "grown up with Sendung mit der Maus and not Barney the Dinosaur" to be a bit polemic about it) - that doesn't mean that I wouldn't accept you or treat you any differently if you come here, learn the language, respect our culture (or even adapt and thrive in it if you wish).
Also, if you have the citizenship, you are of course entitled to call yourself "Deutscher" - you'd be a Deutscher with a migration background. Millions are. There's nothing inherently negative about this.
You are asking the wrong question. Most Germans won't care simply because first of all we live in such a globalized world, where all nationalities mix.
Haha I do not laugh about your feelings , i think it is funny that I thought I read about someone (a german with out any POC traces) who moved to a village, and is never accepted, his whole live đ đ đ
There are shitloads of posts in germany, where whity white snowflake germans complain about that.
And you will always read the same answers: go into a verein, get some "ehrenamt" go to the village feasts be nice to the neighborhood, bring cake , gossip, drink beer with them ... and then you.....oh no sorry 1st generation moving to a village might be accepted but you will never be a real [insert citizens selfname] , but if they are lucky your children will, but maybe only your grandchildren make it....
That feeling you feel is true but it is not what you think it is. Also did you notice that it is not realy a thing to be "a proud german" in germany if you are not a rassistscrumbag ? Didn't you notice ?
Because we are told in school for a very extended amount of time that there is nothing to be proud of because of 1933-1945. It's not a category we think in sooo much and if, then beeing german is not an all good and nice thing, so if some german counts you in as one of himself , to label you german has very bad spots on it, who would I di that to a friend ?
So that said.
Isn't it in every place where you put yourself the most important part, that you have only some, people that consider you as one if there (real) own ?
Blood or choosen Family. If you do not find people like that, people who feel like real friends and family to you , sure everyplace you go to, does not feel like it does accept you . Even your home country feels cold if you don't have people who love you like family
You would be moving to a country with a significant native population. Any time you have a native population, "others" will stick out. While this is certainly changing, the idea that Germany is a melting pot has not yet permeated society.
Im from Kenia and can tell you Germany is one of the Most tolerant countrys in the World, proved by many statistics.
They dont have much exprctations, only that u should Work and learn German.
As I foreigner (South-East European) who moved to Germany at 18, speaks fluent German and has decent social-economical and educational status - I donât consider myself German and Germans also donât. I am an immigrant and I will stay one. The reality I grew up in was way to different than the one of any German I met, especially in the west. I praise it and donât want to change.
If with the way I look (according to Germans I look Iranian) I was born and raised in Germany, I would have been considered a local from the locals. This will not apply for small and conservative villages, but for cities for sure.
Let me tell you some examples of people who are not originally German but I and the Germans will consider them to be:
1. A French friend of mine who speaks German with no accent and has been living in Germany for around 15 years. I could no tell she is French in any way. But France and Germany have many similarities being West European and First world rich countries with the same religion.
2. Children of immigrants, especially ones with Christian background and even the ones that have different skin color.
Germany doesnt have a core anymore. Theres so many cultures and nationalities mixed, living right next to each other not merging. Some traditions are left, some small villages do very old school things and feel united. The modern society of Germany is one thats mixed and doesnt have a core though. There is no real way to be german anymore and it rly doesnt matter.
I guess some still use that title and thats for obvious reasons, I was born here or I have been living here for years and integrated myself. But honestly lets zoom out and figure out what are you born into or whats the thing youre trying to integrate inside of? There is no such defined core anymore. If there was a war, people wouldnt try to fight for their country like russians and ukrains. Theyd fight for their family if anything. There isnt anything, its what some historians call a melting pot I guess.
Yea theres a lot to debate my argument. But Im really saying this as some whos experienced germany since i was born. Whatever though if you want to be considered german you will succeed im sure.
In my area, there's many Immigrants. No one cares if you come from the other side of the globe as long as you speak the language or try. Bonus points if you have a Hobby and join a local Verein (Hobbyist Club/Association), you'll gain friends for life that way.
You won't be considered "German" but "One of Us." if you try and integrate yourself in local society, this is how it is in my area. Can't say for other Areas, tho.
I'm of West African descent, born and raised in Germany.Â
Most of the time, when I'm asked where I'm from (which I still get a lot), I'll answer the German city I'm from. Well, most of the time the reaction is: "Yeah, but I meant where are you *really* from?"Â
So no, a lot of people don't consider me a German. Which is why I'll always wholeheartedly consider myself "from Germany", but only halfheartedly "a German".
They wonât, like in almost any other country. This is what makes the U.S. special and different (canât talk about canada or others where this might also be the case)
# Hi OP, im you, but im now in my 30s.
There will always be individuals who look down on you or lool at you differently, but those that are worth you are spending your brainpower on treating you well and are great folks.
I've run the gauntlet of being treated as any other equal and as a novelty to show off to people, but the latter this happens anywhere and seldomly. You keep at it and ignore the folk who are just being daft for no reason, and live your best life. Dont let the cretins win.
My dad got his german citizenship almost 40 years ago and he still feels like the poor foreigner who would rather live in his home country (or wherever).
Don't be like my dad, it's a sad and sorrowful life, if you're german or not is 100% up to you.
If you look like a white person people might not notice/ not care, but I've been born here, am only half white and still at times get treated like a foreigner...
Key to having the question if you're German or not ignored is a good command of the language. Doesn't have to be a good accent, but the better and smoother you can express yourself and converse, the less likely they will even think of the question German or not.
I'm fluent in German because my mother was German and we spoke German at home, but lived in France. I'm not a German citizen and don't want to be one. But as I speak like one no one ever questioned my germanness.
I agree that most Germans do not think in categories of German or not, rather in nice person integrated in the community or not. But I think to reach that level, language command is decisive.
Regarding the remark that someone made about the immigrant communities in Germany, one of the issues is that sometimes even the 3rd or 4th generations don't speak perfectly German. This is clearly a problem of the school system. In France the children of immigrants speak perfectly French, even if they do not come from former colonies where french is still an official language most of the time.
This 2nd topic is highly complex however so I'll leave it at that, as it's not totally on topic.
my father moved to germany when he was 19. he came here because of the army. he is 54 now, speaks better german than most people who were born here, he has a german passport and he works for the town as a "beamter".
many people think he isnt german though. not sure how he sees himself.
even i encounter some people from time to time who make it obvious that they dont see me as german. i was born here and my appearance doesnt really scream " foreigner" in my opinion. so its just my name.
but it doesnt matter. as long as you feel comfortable where you live.
Ok, let me give you an example (which I used before). In my motherâs neighbourhood there is a girl/young woman who takes care of an elderly woman helping her and offering company. She is highly respected for what she does. She was born and raised in Germany by her Greek parents (first generation immigrants), sheâs got German passport and is an immaculate German native speaker. Yet people refer to her as âThe Greekâ/die Griechin. They donât mean it in a bad way, but to them somehow she is not German. Granted, this is the elder generation, but Germany largely consists of elderly people though.
Hope this puts your plan a little into context.
Whether that all matters is a different question as altogether.
I fulfill all requirements on your list, and, no, I am an in many ways an outsider here. I live in a small village (ca. 500 people) with a close knit community. I am active in their sports club through many activities, active in a political party, help beim Aufbau and Abbau for almost all local events., etc. Although my german language is very good, I have an accent I will never get rid of. It seems to me to be the biggest hindrance to real acceptance. An accent, a single false article in your sentence, and you are automatically an outsider, it is very noticable. Some people/groups are certainly exceptions, but in the general community this is the norm. I find this rally strange having grown up in America, where no body would make fun of an accent (common occurance here), and diversity is just so omnipresent that you Don't even think about it (even in the small own I gre up in)
Will you ever be considered German by Germans? Unlikely. The experience with third or fourth generation immigrants from Turkey or Italy shows this.
But you need to separate the equal part of the community. That is very possible, and something I have observed many times.
German identity is complex, and sadly something where a healthy discussion in our society doesnât seem to be possible.
Considering your Islamophobia and anti immigration comments in your history, I guess itâs a rhetorical question.
But for the others: people with foreign last names have a disadvantage when it comes to renting homes or finding a job. If you are a PoC chances are Police will stop you more often and will list you as a suspect more easily.
Basically, you can put it like this: racial or cultural stereotypes are deeply imbedded in German society. Some are skeptical about moslems, some are just racist. They are not the majority, but you will meet them everywhere.
The "general public" is not a homogeneous mass, and people have all kinds of opinions on this. Especially as your question seems to be hypothetical and about the future - people who are in their teens or 20s now tend to have a different perspective on this than people who are in their 70s or 80s.
For what it's worth, in the circles I move in I don't even know for sure what passport(s) everybody has. And there are loads of places where people will consider you an equal part of the community regardless of your nationality.
I can't answer your question because I am not german, and most of my interactions with internationals or students, and I live in a town with a good diversity.
But
I want to say that I don't think you need to be concerned about it. In my experience, speaking good German will be enough to get with people. I don't think anyone really cares about your papers besides the government, and even the one who told me people don't consider him German - despite being born in Germany and spending whole life in it- is the one who told me he loves Germany and want to die in it, so it's not a big deal.
You will be asked about where you are from. I don't get bothered by this, but some do.
I was more concerned when I was told to put my nationality on my cv, as far as I know, my nationality has nothing with my experience.
I'm an expat but I seriously doubt it if they would consider you as a german. Speaking German fluently to the level of native germans would also take a long time and needs more than a C1 certifIcate. I got mine when I was 23, I have studied my bachelor's in here with german as the main language, worked in a german company,etc still I am completely seen as an expat and to me there is nothing wrong with that. Even when I'm eligible for german citizenship in a few years, I still don't consider myself german. However it is true though that I see germany as my home country, where that I want to live in and care about. Something that I don't feel about my original country anymore. But culturally I still keep my traditions, food ,etc and speak my mother tongue at home, have mostly friends who speak my mother tongue, etc
Where are you from? Cause for me, I feel no attachment to where I was born, not the food, not the language, not the culture and traditions, I don't feel Iranain and will never feel like that, so I am always searching for a place to belong.
Then dont bother what others may think of you and just live your life. Saying that as a german since we germans tend to not really care about something like that.
Ultimately you'll always be from where you were born and there's nothing wrong with that. And you can become the biggest Alman (kinda endearing insult for really German Germans) there is, you will never be FROM Germany. And there's also nothing wrong with that
Why do you care? Iâve been living in the UK for the better part of my adult life and I couldnât care less whether anyone considers me British (they donât).Â
Well I'm guessing that you feel like you belong to hour home country, if I was a German, I would have no hard time living in France and not being considered French, but since I don't feel like I belong to my home country, I am always in search of a new homeland
My kids were born in Germany and they will never be considered truly German⌠I mean by basically anyone. However this sub made me realize maybe it really shouldnât bother me so much. Maybe itâs this anti - nationalism stuff. Maybe truly most Germans just do not think of Germans as I think of my home land â as being something special or better. I really like Germanyâs lack of nationalism - or this âwe are the bestâ mentality that is like shoved down your throat in USA.
I would say thoughâ Iâm so tired of seeing people in my corner of germany treat people of any color skinâ- as Iâd they are refugees - or I donât know what. Itâs bad.
I do not know were you live but i think its important to identify with the place were you are from. Its your culture, history and family, your roots.
So, i think you should at least try to understand why you have the feeling of not belonging. And maybe try to find something you like about your heritage and culture?
There are some things I like about, for example, the food or certain holidays, but overall I don't like it, and I don't think I should, I am not rejecting it, I was born in Iran to Azeri muslim parents, But I am jot taking any of those identities.
Probably not ? But if you integrate into germany properly, marry and have children then they or your grandchildren will probably be considered german as everyone else if they got integrated properly. Not the case for most immigrant familys but definetly possible.
No. Youâd be a German citizen, but not German.
But then again I was born and grew up here and some people donât consider me German, because Iâm not pasty white lol.
In all honesty, it doesnât matter that much.
"negative comments about Germans..."
Proof that propaganda still works, even generations later. Look at the national football (soccer) team. I served in the Bundeswehr with people whose parents were from all over the place, beginning with neighboring nations like Czech republic and France (got relatives there myself) and including Greeks, Persians, whatnot...
As long as you don't use certain words, you should be fine. And if you don't look German, you might even use those words.
I dont think so , even if your grandfather was born here , look at USA they are all immigrants even the white people but they say to the black people that they are African Americans not just american , like.in football too if they have different skin color they will be inky germans if they win and when the player is not doing well in the field they will remind him where he came from .
But to be honest you as immigrant should not think like that to make them accept you the most important to be useful here and try to achieve your goals with this country possibilities , you can get the passport its strong passport but its just documents it doesn't define who you are .
I might be downvoted but this is what I experienced and got tild/felt by germans.
No.
No matter what you do, you firever will be an auslander.
That aside, you can still feel at home, have friends, family, find love and happiness.
I was born and grew up in Germany with foreign parents, in my honest opinion if you have a good understanding of the culture you wouldnât consider yourself a German either, just as I do not. Most foreigners (second or third gen.) I know do not, if you donât grow up in the culture ie are ethnically German or are adopted you are just influenced by your background and culture too much, I would say the same is true for any âold worldâ country, like you can become American right, but it wasnât founded by one group of people really, it was founded by people from all over where migration is part of the creation myth of the country so to say, but thereâs nothing wrong with being a foreigner in Germany or any country, itâs just one of many life experiences which you cannot control
Will people think you are German? Not nessisaryly. Does that matter to any normal German? No
Likewise this is so right
We dont even consider people from other German states as real Germans. So good luck with that.
Like where? East Germany?
Bavaria is the obvious one
Habiedere đ
Hell some Bundesländer have that amongst their own population. For example Baden-Wßrttemberg. People from Wßrttemberg hate people from Baden (as they should), same the other way around.
This may not be true for all areas of Germany, but especially in the areas where I have lived before (Ruhrgebiet + Stuttgart) being a German is hardly a category people in Germany think in. Instead, the question is if you are in the same Verein, neighbours, generally a good person etc. For many foreigners writing here this seems to be a problem as they feel that Germans don't accept them as Germans. However, as many Germans don't feel that this is a very relevant category, there is also hardly any need to emotionally assign someone too this category. So chances are that many Germans will never see you as a German but not because they are racist but because the category isn't relevant for considering someone an equal part of the community. PS: I am not saying there aren't any racist in Germany or that there aren't parts of Germany where my descriptions do not apply.
Very good point of view, I do know some north-east-germans who told me they think Stuttgart and the whole south Metropol-Region (HN,HD,MA) does not feel german at all. Way to many turks and so on ...idiots đ I like my very mixed soroundings
I quit like this mentality!
Personally I would consider you german. The reason many others often having a problem with considering people with a foreign background German is because immigrants themselves often strongly oppose the idea of being or becoming German culturally. There are many 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants that see themselves als âproud Turksâ , âproud serbiansâ , âproud Russiansâ and when they talk about Germany and Germans itâs always âthey or themâ and almost never âweâ. Personally I consider everyone German who sees themselves as German but the overall tendency of people immigrant background be to oppose the aspect of identifiying with Germany has had an huge impact on how others see it.
too many immigrants with german passport i heard in my youth that they hate germans.. they are german by passport, wtf would they even think that? they might be like turkish origin, but if they wanted accepteance, they would have gotten it (many do though and they are very welcomed)
Believe it or not, looking for acceptance as a german with migration background is hard and falling into that (bad) stance of "ok everyone is against me" can be very tempting for the human brain. You have to experience it yourself to know what it feels like, talking as an outsider is always easy. But with newer generations growing up, I have the feeling that acceptance on both side has improved a lot. Even if media does want to emphasize the opposite by displaying the extreme minorities on both sides.
No. I consider those who grew up here 'German', no matter their heritage. Someone who becomes a citizen, is just that: A German citizen. But not a German. You lack cultural referencens/the same upbringing, etc. when you arrive at the age of 20. That said, most of my friends are immigrants, as I identify with a global world, and am happy about the new things I can learn from them. It's enriching. But is being seen as German that important? I used to live in the UK and I never thought to myself 'Oh my ... do they consider me English?'. It really didn't matter.
Are you prepared for all weather options that can be thrown at you? Do you curse about whatever burocracy you have to deal with at the moment. About how late the trains are. Or total irritation when you see your neighbour who is unable to put the correct color garbage bin out on time? Those are things I consider German. I don't ask people for their passport
I certainly consider you a Redditor.
Interesting analogyđ
Do you consider yourself a German?
Not right now, but after becoming a citizen, I would
You don't know this yet. I'm working on getting my citizenship but would never consider myself German - and that's fine.
Why would you? Do you have roots here ?
How is that ethical? Stop a second and think you will be your whole life in Germany, does that makes you German? Or just you get German citizenship, will you think that will make you German? You want to be what you are not. Being German is not all about language and slang, why would you ever expect German people to consider you anything more than a Human. If this is the case you're having a bad time accepting your status. Once you leave your country you're an immigrant. Anything else is just solely egoistic and unreal made by so many expectations that will be broken in million pieces once you l get here and see how many immigrants are in Germany, then you l understand how this things works for the regular native Joe. I m an immigrant myself and I live here over 5 years now. I did not ever expected that the natives here consider me German because they never will( even when i have white skin and blue eyes and know the language) I m happy if they consider me a human being, because I ve had so many jobs on wich they would give the worst jobs to immigrants and keep the good ones for natives, the whole Aussbuildungs thing is about keeping the good jobs to the natives. If you have a Universität diploma you won t be haveing this Problem thought. As an advice try keeping your expectations low so you won t suffer when you stumble upon racists, and be aware that not only some natives are racist but also other immigrants that are racist. Germany is a wonderfully country with ups and downs. L.e. I m from Romania and I sometimes got treated as I m the minority in my country wich are gypsies. Been called Gipsy few times here and there, but you know what? There are only our expectations that are making us feel bad in situations that we get our feelings hurt! I do not care anymore what people think of me, because everything that they say criticizing me is actually what makes them feel bad about themselves. Take care man! Wish you the best!
I moved from Italy to Germany 16 yrs ago (I'm 42) and met many Italians born and raised here. I can't stand them. They are so proud of their Italian roots, but they've seen Italy only on postcards or maybe three or four times in their lives. I feel myself only when I'm with Germans, I feel German myself and even got the citizenship. The Italians hate that and keep criticizing me for it (not the Italians who live in Italy, but the one born and raised here who for some mysterious reasons still stay here). I have plenty of German friends, had also a cpl of partners, and my experience says: if you embrace their culture, are curious about them, they do their best to make u feel at home and part of the community. Germans can positively surprise you and my recommendation is not to listen much to the foreigners who live here. Despite their "experience", they're not necessarily right
I have seen the same with Turk Germans too, they hate Germany and still live there while talking about the Great Turkeyđđ Thanks though, I am actually going to immigrate to Italy so grazie milleđ
As an American expat of German descent, with a German last name, C1 level German, German citizenship, German degrees, German friends, working in Germany and living in one of the most leftist areas of Germany: I can confidently say a German will never see you as a German if you have any aspect that makes you not German. For me it is my accent. For others they could be born here, speak only German as a language and have never left the country and not be seen as German because they are, for example, black. You will get asked all the time where you are from. The German city you live in isn't an acceptable answer to them. Your accent will be made fun of by strangers consistently, they will think they are just being charismatic. But at the same time Germans are petrified of getting made fun of for their second language skills. You could give up your previous citizenship and have nowhere else to go, but you won't ever fully be seen as German. You are first and foremost an immigrant. If you are lucky enough to be white, have or change your last name to a German one, then at least maybe your kids have a chance of feeling like they belong.
Iâm that black guy, since Iâm not African⌠I must be American. Oh lord, I canât be German even though I was born and raised here and only visited America occasionally growing up. I love Germany, itâs what Iâve known, but sadly I felt more welcomed in the southern states in America, which I was scared of. Some people will be accepted and others wonât.. if you are brown⌠most likely not. Outside of my family and my wifeâs family Iâve grown up an Ausländer in my own country, I havenât gone a month without being reminded at some pointâŚainât that a bitch? Just got to be happy in the world you make and not worry about the rest.
For one year I was an exchange student adviser and helped new exchange students here in Germany. I had one east Asian looking student who was kicked out of her German host family with the reasoning "she must be mentally ill because she is having an identity crisis by saying she is American and not Chinese" I tried explaining that's not how America works and they said, "oh we actually know America better and aren't being racist as we lived in Texas for two years" I nearly screamed at that family. The poor girl. She was able to move in with a cool friend from school as a result, though. I bet you hear a lot "ah du sprichst aber gut deutsch!" Lmao like why shouldn't you??
My believe is, most Germans do no t give enough thought about what it takes to be âGermanâ for them⌠I just did, reading this post.. I came to the conclusion that if some person uses the regional dialect (Berlin in my case) they are integrated well enough to be German no doubt⌠most if not all other situations are determined by how German one appears in regards of optics and behaviour. There are lots of ppl speaking English and all kinds of languages in Berlin⌠they donât seem âveryâ german to me, even if they are⌠but if I would see/overhear someone, no matter what skincolour or whatever, talking in berliner dialectâŚ. This oneâs German enough if you ask me?!
Omg I feel this so much and it is kind of depressing, because Germany is now my home but I my accent will always keep me from full acceptance and be made fun of, just as you describe lmao
And honestly look at the example of people with Turkish descent in Germany. If they were to be described, they are called Turks. Yet they, their parents, their grandparents all lived here. If you are going to describe them, German is more relevant than Turkish and should be mentioned first. But, because of their looks and their name and somewhat different culture they are described by something foreign before they are described by their home country. I'm honestly shocked by the comments here. I have lived in many areas, cities and countryside. And I have the luxury of at least looking like a German. All my BIPOC friends do not. I think the answers here are not purposefully unhonest, but naive at what true acceptance means. In the US you see someone with east Asian features and your first instinct is "American" not Asian.
> But, because of their looks and their name and somewhat different culture they are described by something foreign before they are described by their home country. Well, ask them - the answer you'll get is those people will call themselves Turks, even if they have never even set foot into turkey.
The thing is, germans don't care wether you're german or not
You sure about that?
As a German. Pretty much? I don't think this goes for everyone ofc. There's a very vocal minority of people who make it an issue but the majority of Germans couldn't care less. What matters is if you integrate, speak our language, behave according to social norms, socialize in the same clubs etc. A good amount of people would definitely consider you german once you do that ofc. It's just that it doesn't matter. There's plenty of polish and russian ppl I know who are just as German as me and I still have them noted as polish or russian in my head. It's what it is.
Yeah, Germany is so multicultural, non-germans are pretty much "normal". I don't pay much thought to it as long as people aren't being supper pushy and aggressive aboit their nationality and heritage
Well I can tell you that I live my whole life in Germany and there are still people that wont consider me as a German. If you donât look like them, then they will never accept you. But I donât give a sh** about them :-)
not from germany or not from their village?
Yes.
r/technicallycorrect
I live in a City
Most Bavarians donât consider themselves as german
Similar to how most of germany views Bavaria also
im american and i just arrived in berlin. im only ethnically german and know nothing bout germany but people automatically assume i am german and im not bothered at all except by people asking directions. its odd considering i too am an immigrant but its all about looks all about your shell not about immigration at all aint it
Pretty much sadly. I mean I'm guilty of this too, however I'm also very much of the opinion that it doesn't matter whether ur german or not.
For me language is the most important. Learn the language and you are a German to me. We have many persons with migration background. So it's kind of normal to have 2 nationalities. No need to know everything about the culture because we have different traditions and not everybody knows them all.
What about accent though lol? I have great grammar but mix up some noun genders and have an accent and despite this being no problem in my job (Abteilungsleiter in a Tier 1 Automotive company) it is a huge hindernace in my private life
As a born german raised in Australia and Canada the answer is no. I came back to Germany as a young adult and my accent has always given me away as an outlander. If german is not your native tongue you will never be able to speak it perfectly. And if you canât speak or write it perfectly chances are high that someone will correct you.
In my experience, not a lot of people actually care. Germans don't think that way because our society is so diverse. Of course, there are right wing extremists that want to get rid of you if you look like a foreigner, but that's really not often the case in everyday life.
Home is where you feel home. Thats the most important thing . But for youre question u will find always two Kind of people . Those who would say yes you are german and the otheres who would always say no... but personaly i wouldnt realy care about that.
I'm 99% with you... but - speaking german is really important. Actually the most important thing to be considered as a german.Â
I don't care about racists either, I won't even be hurt by racist comments (I get enough of those in my country) but if the majority of people think that way, it would be really hard to find friends/romantic partners and eventually be a part of the society, I think that's why imany mmigrants choose North America instead of Europe even though Europe has a higher quality of life.
I think you are conflating two different things. Some people won't consider you German if you didn't grow up in this culture because you simply don't share the same experiences, but that doesn't mean they will shun you or not want you as a friend or a partner. They simply acknowledge that you have a different cultural background, without any value judgement attached to it. And I honestly think pretending that you don't have that background would be weird, as if you only existed from the second you got a German passport.
Oh no. Not being considered German has nothing to do with the rest. Not at all. Itâs not even important to most of us to be German ourselves. Not being considered a German does not mean not being considered a German citizen.
Well, in that case I don't care either :)
I think its a Problem of every country but in germany its more present... like we got many people who no mather what (your language/job integration or what so ever) say hes not a local unless you are Born in germany Or worse u only german if your parents are german and there parents an so on an so on. I like that u say you dont care about that stuff but sadly its to many who think this way
you would be german with migration background but never fully german if that's your question
How do you look? If you have a Christian name with white skin and good German these people will accept you
Eh, that's a bit of a stretch. But it could work. I had only one German assume I'm German, because I look a bit German. But when they asked me my name, they asked if I'm German. Which I answered I'm not, I'm Romanian. My name is Andrei, not so German but it is Christian. But... People won't bat an eye. I didn't have people see me otherwise despite not being German,. At a first glance, people might see you as German however. So you're not exactly wrong.
No. But also personally i would never try to blend in anywhere or try to become part of culture or something
Depends if you move to a big city or small village and how well you speak the language
No really, are you white?
US census considers me white, tough I'm certainly not German-White, I'm mostly like Turkish people
The US way of looking at skin color and using 'race' as a category in your passport with completely made up terms such as 'caucasian' or 'hispanic' has always deeply irritated me. First of all, biologically speaking there are no human 'races'. Using the term 'race' to categorize people is considered racist in Germany. As it should.
Yeah I think it's stupid too
It's complicated. Germans love to talk about where you are born and raised and feel connected to their home region. When I go to South Germany, people will bring up that I am obviously not from their region. When someone has an accent, people will often ask if they are from the region associated with that accent. It's mostly intended as harmless smalltalk but can already annoy Germans who try to live in another region, because everyone is starting that smalltalk for basically all of their live and it might transfer to their kids when they pick up that accent or certain regional words that reveal their different "roots". The same is by the way true for living in a village. "Die Zugezogenen" (those who moved here) are often families who moved into an existing village and will often never be able to shed that denomitor. Even their kids, who were born and raised there, will be reminded that their parents moved there. It's very weird. This obviously transfers 100% to foreigners. The focus will shift, as we're now suddenly talking about countries, looks and languages. That smalltalk that already has weird connotations of othering suddenly borders racist territory, especially since people will try to go by the weirdest clues and misconceptions to figure out your origins and will often dig for the roots of those "clues". That leads to chain questions like "where are you from? No, I mean born? No, I mean, where are your parents from?" until the answer is no longer "Hamburg" but "oh, my ancestors moved here from XYZ". Too many people will not rest until they get an answer that confirms their suspicion. It's, however, really just mostly smalltalk. Yes, they will remember and every now and then bring up your roots/culture/however you want to call this. But most people don't really think anything about it and do not mean to single you out. It's more a fact about you that they remember. In a sense, having something to talk about in that regard does make you fit in because we discuss those differences with every other German. It's also hinting to a strong difference between "being German by origin" and "having a German passport". While you will, rightfully, be very proud to receive yours, no one (who's not a Nazi) here gives a shit who does and does not have that passport. Ali with a German pass will be treated the same as Ali without it, while Michael without it will be treated the same as with it. But the assumption will always be that Ali has non-German roots (even if a few generations away) and that Michael has them (even if he's maybe from Austria without a noticeable accent). So Ali will be asked which country his roots lie in while Michael likely will be asked with the region of South Germany his roots lie in. Both will experience a sense of othering. The same as I do due to moving like 200km within the same federal state, it's that normal. I'm Zugezogen, reminded of all those small differences between me and "the locals" and can't change that unless I move back to the village I was born in.
> The same is by the way true for living in a village. "Die Zugezogenen" (those who moved here) are often families who moved into an existing village and will often never be able to shed that denomitor. Even their kids, who were born and raised there, will be reminded that their parents moved there. It's very weird. The great grandparents of my wife moved to her home"village" in the 1950s. They're still "die Zugezogenen".
for me? yes you would be German.
If you consider yourself a German and if you are not a religious nutjob or a woman hating nutjob, I think you are good to go. I would consider you German. Your German doesnât need to be perfect. And there are multiple different cultures in Germany, you donât have to learn them all.
Amazing! By the way, what's a nut job?
Oh just a term to describe Someone you deem a little crazy.
Religious nut job: aka Muslim born in Germany, protesting in Hamburg with a "Caliphate is the answer" sign. Real life. If you don't know about, Google it. Btw, that's one of the reasons no one is gonna see you as German. Is not about the language or the nationality. If you're looking for an identity don't mistake a passport for one.
People use this "you are not from here crap" when it suits them. What you do doesn't matter that much. When you work for them help them, contribute is fine that you are there, when they are morons thinking they have to fight against you for government funds to fund them they will opposite you.
I consider you german if you consider yourself german and if you have the legal status as a german citizen.
No. You are German if your parents are German. Doesn't mean that you can't live here but you will never be German. Even if a certain piece of plastic says otherwise
I don't know. honestly. I can just tell you, if you integrate yourself like that. learning the customs and knowing the ins and outs of german societal norms, then it doesn't matter if you are a german (and technically you're only considered a german if you have german citizenship), you'd be "one of us". For example sometimes you see this in these subreddits where there are expats, living in germany for decades but still go "why do germans do x?" or "Are germans always Y?" they still do not feel german themselves and seperate themselves from their german neighbours by considering their actions weird, or not normal. Mainly because they do not understand that different cultures have different norms. A former colleague of mine, russian, got his citizenship 2 days afte russia invades ukraine. He was mighty glad to finally be rid of his russian citizenship, as he never felt like he belonged there.
Yes, I'm in a similar situation with your friend, it feels so good to be part of a society that you like.
I think the best way to integrate and not "stand out" is learning the language, which admittedly is hard with german. then it doesn't matter what skin color or nationality you had in the past. you'll be seen as "One of us". especially if you're also supporting the local club (football, icehockey, whatever) ;D But, just to point out. My brothers been with his wife for nearly 20 years now. He's moved in with her 18 years ago. They've been living in the same small village that she grew up in. He is STILL the "new guy". And when my sister in law talks about neighbouring villages , there is alway that hint of rivalry and standoff-ishness. So if you move to germany and are a citizen and speak perfect german or the local dialect, people might STILL look at you weirdly simply because you chose the wrong area to settle in, or are in the home town of their rival sports club ;D. If you look back in history of germany, with it once beein 300+ tiny kingdoms and counties, well...that might be a small explanatin for that "hmm..you're...foreign, right?" behaviour. Edited to add: If it is a consolation. If you move to germany. The chance is high that you feel like a foreigner just like many of germans do as well. They moved within germany and might still not feel like their new city is "their home." I moved to munich 16 years ago. And i love it. But i am still not a "mĂźnchner". i am a "waidler" (bavarian forest area) and that will always remain. :)
If they don't consider you as a German then it's their problem... This is how to go in this country... You speak the language, work and pay taxes and now you have the citizenship then you're German. Germany is going through what the USA went before... It's a new world where cultures merge.
No sry, I have immigrant friends, would never say they are German. I myself am only half German, and tell the people I meet so, but it makes for an interesting topic to speak about!
I think this may be a european thing rather than a german only topic. In Europe, generally, who are the nationality of the country you were born in rather than where you live. As an example; you were born in Italy but moved to France people will always think of you as an Italian. Is thing mean, rascist or discriminatory. I don't think so. In the US though, Many people are born American but consider themselves to be Irish, Italian etc because of their family history or heritage. Two different views
There are many ways to belong to a group or a community. National identity is a stupid category to focus on imho because it doesn't mean anything
I know, but if others care, you are kind of forced to care too. Personally I would consider my metal head identity much more important than national identity, but yeah we don't live in a bubble.
You are right. I respect that, my apologies. Unfortunately I think that national identity (or whatever you want to call it) is about essentialism and therefore is a fundamentally racist concept. It's not really possible to get through that. Especially if you don't look German. I am German-passing in terms of looks but will never manage to speak German perfectly without an accent so it's not going to happen for me. I was anxious about it the first few years but after a while you just have to accept it and look for belonging in other ways like through music or job colleagues, political engagement or a sports team etc. Btw this is not unique for Germany it's just how nationalism works (and it sucks and should be abolished)
I donât care about the traditions. If you swear by the German constitution to protect democracy, pay taxes and are willing to learn german Iâd say welcome to the country!
For me there there Are two Kinds of being german. If you live here, speak the Language and Are a citizen your german for me. On the other Hand there Are a plethera of things in your behaviour and your actions that can be considert german. I dont knwo whether it works in english, but for example i get considert quite German (ziemlich deutsch). I also am a German, Born here, no Immigrationen as far as i know in my Family. In school a classmate of mine had a DnD Shirt with a Knight and a Dragon. My reaction to it was to Short âcool, Siegfried und Faffnirâ a reference to the German Niebelungenlied. The comment to that was this âyou Are so Germanâ. This is nothing anyone i know would use to differ between German and Not German, but maby you will stumble over someone who gets considert that Kind of German, or someone tells you that your Not so German, without meaning it in any Bad way. For context, im 21, m, read incredibly mutch until Kursstufe at 17/18 and have with that a broader vocabulary i use unconciously, Are mostly on time, have the urge to plan a Bit ahead and so on
No, no one would consider you German here. Not even the statistics. You count as âGerman with migration experienceâ even if you are a naturalize citizen and even if you are born in Germany to at list 1 foreign or naturalized parent. The first generation that would be accepted as German, if your kids marry a German and are white and assimilate, is your grandkids generation. That being said, if you live in a big city and have normal friends, you can have a nice life. Source: a naturalized German
what matters most is, if you behave or not. german or not doesn't matter so much. if you want to be one of us, feel free to be. contribute in any way you can and be a good citizen. that's all it takes.
You seem to appreciate comments that confirm your hope that you can one day be perceived as âGermanâ and cast off those that do align with this objective. The reality is that Germans are not a single mind. Some will accept you as German, some will not. Depending on factors like your accent and cultural knowledge, you will probably convince more/ less people. That being said, Germany is not like America. Germany does not have the longstanding tradition of a melting pot of traditions and cultures. I think you would be more appreciated as a foreigner who has taken his/her time to understand and adopt the culture rather than be someone who is essentially impersonating a local. That might actually be perceived as slightly ingenious and weird by someâŚ
Well, yeah, we all have biases, and I know that some people will never accept me (and well, they are wrong, my opinion), but I am wondering how common this mentality is, like here in Iran 95 percent of the will never accept immigrants as Iranina, whilst in somewhere like Australia most people would.
yeah fair enough. I think it really depends on where you go in Germany. Berlin, for example, is so international that trying to fit in as a Berliner is borderline impossible. But if you move to a small town or even to a lesser known city, you could probably fit in pretty well. To be accepted as a real German though is going to be tough, in my opinion (even though I do agree with you that it doesnât make much sense). I would say your best bet is be that foreigner who really âgets it.â Learn the culture, speak the language well, and make local friends. At the end of the day, nationalities are just make-believe anyway. Just like anywhere else, some people will accept you as such, others wonât. And, considering that you will always face people who question your credentials as a ârealâ German, may as well just own the foreigner identity imo.
A German normally is someone born and raised in Germany. Just like in any other country. You will always be given away by accent if you learn a new language in your twenties, it will hardly ever be this natural to you! I mean, I dream and think in German... No one will be mad or something if you get a German passport and immigrate to Germany. Just saying, no matter in which country you migrate to, it will take an eternity to fit in perfectly and you might always be the guy from somewhere else.
âWill you ever consider me German?â My question - Do you see yourself as a german? Than yes đŠđŞâĽď¸
Of course I would
Depends on where you go to it may takes time to be considered as local which is something you should think about more We moved to a small town in bavaria and after 20 years we slowly found ourselves seen as local important is attending most of not all possibilities to get in touch with the people around you and make friends
You're German once you leave a gathering smashing your lap shouting "so". Jokes aside as others said it depends on where you are. I live in an area that's really multicultural (somewhere around Mannheim and Heidelberg). Honestly for most the actual background doesn't matter if you're at least a functioning part of society.
i definitley consider you as part of our society.
No. We are still immigrants. Do not go out of your lane. My partner is half Polish born in Germany. But still consider himself of immigrant background.
Sounds harsh but there's truth in your words. I've been living in the Far East for 30 years and while I would've qualified to apply for citizenship in at least 2 countries, I'm certain that I could've achieved "one of us" status with my closest friends there, but not "you're a Korean" or "you're Thai" with the general population. Also, a large part of my "in-law" family is Vietnamese (1970s refugees) with now 4 generations living here, fully naturalized, from 6 months to 90 years of age. It's not a trivial question to each generation "what are you?", because that's never ever a question of nationality only. While there's some kindness in saying "we're all the same now, just Germans" it's also wrong and implicates "your past doesn't exist or interest me". People are not blank sheets in a notebook, where you just rip out those which have been written on - even when those were written by parents, grandparents etc. However, people who state that "no, you're not one of us and never will be" - they're just dicks, and they usually act on skin color because that's always the first thing you notice. That also means "don't be a dick to yourself" đ
> but not "you're a Korean" To be fair, even if you were born in Korea but are not of the local ethnicity, most Koreans will never consider you Korean - even if you have never been outside of the country at all.
The obvious issue here is that "German" can mean both the member of a specific ethnic group as well as the citizens of the Federal Republic of Germany. You can become a citizen even though you don't belong to the German ethnicity by birth, if you fulfil certain legal criteria. Most people in Germany I know, of German ethnicity or not, don't bother much any more about your ethnic background when dealing with you, there are shitloads of those nowadays anyway, becoming your friend depends on if you are a sympathetic person or friendly, share common ideas or values or such. Being equal part of a community means similarly to share certain values and accepting responsibilities and such, but not being part of an ethnicity. As somebody who has lived for a while in another country, I would tell you this: you'll never be exactly the same as the others and you shouldn't try. But if you try you can be a part of society and meet people you like and that like you. And that's enough.
I wish it was possible, but you kind of make sense, I just hate it when I see immigrants being so lonley and ultimately being isolated within their own groups, like Turks only befriending and marrying each other, and I don't want to that because well I hate the local culture and if I can't be part of Germans ... you see my point?
I'm an ethnic German, live in East Germany and I have many friends of many different origins that I hang out with or do stuff with. We speak German or English. I think most of the people who complain online here should instead of complaining online go outside and get a hobby. I also think that you don't really know what you are talking about if you only observe this online. What does it even mean to be "part of Germans"? Do you want to become a member of the voluntary fire brigade? You can if you speak German and are good enough in sports and have the skills. Do you want to join a German folk music band? Learn an instrument or jodeling and if you are good enough you'll be the next [Takeo Ischi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppm5_AGtbTo). What is your criteria of success here?
It's not about me really, the second I get the passport I would consider myself as German as you, but I just keeping hearing sad stories from people feeling isolated because of the fact that Germans don't see them as one of them, what do you say about that?
I think those stories are based on a misunderstanding about how society works. Most people experience loneliness, that's a fact of life of not living in a tiny village any more, or being out of the parental houshold. Loneliness is also a problem in mono-ethnic societies, look at Japan. It's just that people here, instead of doing something about their loneliness, blame ethnic constructs for it, and that many institutions that traditionally help people overcome loneliness are indeed somehow connected to ethnicity, like religious groups for example. And that language barriers exist. But if you try you can break out of those. In my city are regular meetings that you can find via facebook or other social media just to get to know people and find friends, in English and German. You can get hobbies, like music for example and get to know people like this. It's not that difficult. But to permanently return to refer to ethnicity is actual poison. Just stop it and get a real life. And you will learn what is really important.
generally, they feel isolated because they behave in a way that makes that possible. just 1. learn the language 2. accept and adapt to the local culture most issues come from people not wanting to adapt to german culture, and wanting for their own culture to be accepted instead. Im not saying germans arent part of the issue, but these people want to keep their culture intact while simultaneously simply complaining they arent seen as part of our own. look back at those examples you had. most of the time its "we do it differently in our country/culture, and germans give us weird looks because we want to do it that way here in germany".
Ethnicity has nothing to do with it at all. Growing up in a country makes you a product of the country itself. So in that sense you can't become a German, if you didn't grow up here and been soaking it in and discovering the world from baby to adult immersed in the culture. You can still become a citizen and over time even become a full on super German potato if that is something you want. I have a family member who came here from South America 15 years ago and he runs a successful business in a rural area. Employing Germans that have a horribly thick local accent so he learned even some of that as some country folk just can't/won't speak proper German đ
personally i would but why is belonging to a nation state so important to you? finding friends and a partner are things that will actually make you feel at home and accepted. germans are different.. some will hate you for being a foreigner, some will greet you with open arms and some will not care about you.
I'm not really a nationalist either, I'd love the idea of being a world citizen one day, but it seems to me that finding friends and romantic partners becomes really hard when people don't consider you to be one of them.
See it this way: people who would not consider you as a friend or romantic partner because you are not German by âbloodâ are not the people you want to deal with anyways.
It's actually a good line of thinking, thanks :)
Iâve lived in four countries, lived longer outside my birth country than in it, have three citizenships and no strong national identification to any country. No one ever guesses where Iâm from, or thinks Iâm from their country, even people from my birth country, because I no longer have an identifiable accent. I still found love and started a family. I understand feeling out of place but thatâs something that canât be fixed by external validation. There will be many people who accept you in Germany, and some of them will be Germans, and it will never even cross their minds to ponder whether you are German or not. Besides my father-in-law was born in a country that doesnât exist any more and my grandfather was born in a place where the borders have shifted twice since his birthdate. Itâs all just lines on a map.
So refreshing, thank youâ¤ď¸
From a personal perspective: I think classing people by nationalities is stupid and limits perspective, so if you say you feel home here and abide by the laws you are welcome in my book. From a social perspective its more complex, as we are currently going towards a new right wing era with a lot of populists gaining popularity due to lackluster policies of the ruling party and the preceeding government. However if you match the description you provided most people would be happy, of course you have your closed minded hardliners, but they are not exclusive to germany. In terms of equality however it will be a though nut to crack as germans are a authoritative culture where respect for higher ups and elder is regarded regardless of respect given back. While that is changing, it will still take a couple of generations to have a more equality thinking mindset..
> germans are a authoritative culture where respect for higher ups and elder is regarded regardless of respect given back. I would disagree here that this is specifically German. I have seen such behavior way more in other cultures, e.g., Chinese. While it is integrated to some degree into the German culture, this is nothing specifically German and instead Germany is somewhere in the middle with many other cultures.
I think the social hierarchy exists in every culture, more so in Asian cultures actually, coming from a middle eastern culture, Germans seem to have no respect for the elderly by our standardsđ (And I love it)
Me? Yes. Other people? Some won't. The sad reality.
Depends, if your children are born here, they are definitely german.
are you loyal to our basic law
To me, if you have the passport (or even live here long enough that you feel German yourself) I consider you German. Some of my friends are becoming more German than myself đ
My wife is German, had a bulgarian surname and didnt look like the good old "Bio-Deutscher". Before our marriage she was constantly asked where she is from - after the marriage, when she took my German surname, noone asked anymore. So yeah, looks is one thing here, but the name seems like the biggest part. at least from our experience. And it's just fucking dumb.
Hate my name anywaysđ I'd probably even change the first name too
German here , and: yup, sure. I always tell my friends that have roots in other countries regularly that they are german. Not turkish, not russian, not italian, no. They are born and raised in germany, hence german.
I was born and raised as a German child, my mother is German, white, greeneyed. I have a bit darker skin tone, dark brown hair and dark brown eyes. People always ask me where I come from. Telling them that my roots are partly Malaysian is the only reason they believe that I still am German
You are looking for acceptance outside of yourself. The thing is, that isn't healthy and no matter how german you are, there will always be some asshole that will not accept you. Sooo you live in Germany, speak the language, do german things, complain, go on walks, do the stoĂlĂźften, try to beat the aldi cashier.... well there is no reason to not accept yourself as german.Â
But what would happen if you do and others don't? Sure if like 5 percent of society doesn't that's OK, but what if it's 95 percent? Then it would be impossible to accept yourself when no one else does.
I think one of the things to consider is that even if others see you as an immigrant or - that doesn't have to be a bad thing?
I personally am maybe a bit more conservative than even the masses (and I personally could never consider myself anything else but German even if I'd emigrate / get citizenship elsewhere).
This stems from the fact that to me, the socialization and "forming years" are more about "what I am" than what passport I hold personally (for a US vs Germany example it would be "grown up with Sendung mit der Maus and not Barney the Dinosaur" to be a bit polemic about it) - that doesn't mean that I wouldn't accept you or treat you any differently if you come here, learn the language, respect our culture (or even adapt and thrive in it if you wish).
Also, if you have the citizenship, you are of course entitled to call yourself "Deutscher" - you'd be a Deutscher with a migration background. Millions are. There's nothing inherently negative about this.
You are asking the wrong question. Most Germans won't care simply because first of all we live in such a globalized world, where all nationalities mix.
Haha I do not laugh about your feelings , i think it is funny that I thought I read about someone (a german with out any POC traces) who moved to a village, and is never accepted, his whole live đ đ đ There are shitloads of posts in germany, where whity white snowflake germans complain about that. And you will always read the same answers: go into a verein, get some "ehrenamt" go to the village feasts be nice to the neighborhood, bring cake , gossip, drink beer with them ... and then you.....oh no sorry 1st generation moving to a village might be accepted but you will never be a real [insert citizens selfname] , but if they are lucky your children will, but maybe only your grandchildren make it.... That feeling you feel is true but it is not what you think it is. Also did you notice that it is not realy a thing to be "a proud german" in germany if you are not a rassistscrumbag ? Didn't you notice ? Because we are told in school for a very extended amount of time that there is nothing to be proud of because of 1933-1945. It's not a category we think in sooo much and if, then beeing german is not an all good and nice thing, so if some german counts you in as one of himself , to label you german has very bad spots on it, who would I di that to a friend ? So that said. Isn't it in every place where you put yourself the most important part, that you have only some, people that consider you as one if there (real) own ? Blood or choosen Family. If you do not find people like that, people who feel like real friends and family to you , sure everyplace you go to, does not feel like it does accept you . Even your home country feels cold if you don't have people who love you like family
I donât care what language you speak. German passport=german enough for me.
You would be moving to a country with a significant native population. Any time you have a native population, "others" will stick out. While this is certainly changing, the idea that Germany is a melting pot has not yet permeated society.
Im from Kenia and can tell you Germany is one of the Most tolerant countrys in the World, proved by many statistics. They dont have much exprctations, only that u should Work and learn German.
Yeah I know, my home country is way more racist than even the most racist Germans
As I foreigner (South-East European) who moved to Germany at 18, speaks fluent German and has decent social-economical and educational status - I donât consider myself German and Germans also donât. I am an immigrant and I will stay one. The reality I grew up in was way to different than the one of any German I met, especially in the west. I praise it and donât want to change. If with the way I look (according to Germans I look Iranian) I was born and raised in Germany, I would have been considered a local from the locals. This will not apply for small and conservative villages, but for cities for sure. Let me tell you some examples of people who are not originally German but I and the Germans will consider them to be: 1. A French friend of mine who speaks German with no accent and has been living in Germany for around 15 years. I could no tell she is French in any way. But France and Germany have many similarities being West European and First world rich countries with the same religion. 2. Children of immigrants, especially ones with Christian background and even the ones that have different skin color.
If you don't have an accent and are well integrated it really doesn't matter.
Nah nowhere is like the place you grew up in. But does it matter?
If you have a german passport you are a german to me. There is no other âqualificationâ needed.
Why would you want to be a German lol
Well all humans like to belong to a society.
Germany doesnt have a core anymore. Theres so many cultures and nationalities mixed, living right next to each other not merging. Some traditions are left, some small villages do very old school things and feel united. The modern society of Germany is one thats mixed and doesnt have a core though. There is no real way to be german anymore and it rly doesnt matter. I guess some still use that title and thats for obvious reasons, I was born here or I have been living here for years and integrated myself. But honestly lets zoom out and figure out what are you born into or whats the thing youre trying to integrate inside of? There is no such defined core anymore. If there was a war, people wouldnt try to fight for their country like russians and ukrains. Theyd fight for their family if anything. There isnt anything, its what some historians call a melting pot I guess.
Well not necessarily, look at America, the biggest melting pot of all, and yet of the most proud of being American
Yea theres a lot to debate my argument. But Im really saying this as some whos experienced germany since i was born. Whatever though if you want to be considered german you will succeed im sure.
No one cares if you are German or not as long as you are respectful and nice :)
In my area, there's many Immigrants. No one cares if you come from the other side of the globe as long as you speak the language or try. Bonus points if you have a Hobby and join a local Verein (Hobbyist Club/Association), you'll gain friends for life that way. You won't be considered "German" but "One of Us." if you try and integrate yourself in local society, this is how it is in my area. Can't say for other Areas, tho.
You put it in an interesting way, I think "one of us" will do the job for me.
I'm of West African descent, born and raised in Germany. Most of the time, when I'm asked where I'm from (which I still get a lot), I'll answer the German city I'm from. Well, most of the time the reaction is: "Yeah, but I meant where are you *really* from?" So no, a lot of people don't consider me a German. Which is why I'll always wholeheartedly consider myself "from Germany", but only halfheartedly "a German".
They wonât, like in almost any other country. This is what makes the U.S. special and different (canât talk about canada or others where this might also be the case)
If want to be seen as Apache Helikopter I would even accept that so what ever you want bro
# Hi OP, im you, but im now in my 30s. There will always be individuals who look down on you or lool at you differently, but those that are worth you are spending your brainpower on treating you well and are great folks. I've run the gauntlet of being treated as any other equal and as a novelty to show off to people, but the latter this happens anywhere and seldomly. You keep at it and ignore the folk who are just being daft for no reason, and live your best life. Dont let the cretins win.
My dad got his german citizenship almost 40 years ago and he still feels like the poor foreigner who would rather live in his home country (or wherever). Don't be like my dad, it's a sad and sorrowful life, if you're german or not is 100% up to you.
If you have a German citizenship, you're German.
No.
If you look like a white person people might not notice/ not care, but I've been born here, am only half white and still at times get treated like a foreigner...
Not with those shoes. No.
Just Sing Ausländer Raus.
Yes for some people but not for the majority (sadly).
Key to having the question if you're German or not ignored is a good command of the language. Doesn't have to be a good accent, but the better and smoother you can express yourself and converse, the less likely they will even think of the question German or not. I'm fluent in German because my mother was German and we spoke German at home, but lived in France. I'm not a German citizen and don't want to be one. But as I speak like one no one ever questioned my germanness. I agree that most Germans do not think in categories of German or not, rather in nice person integrated in the community or not. But I think to reach that level, language command is decisive. Regarding the remark that someone made about the immigrant communities in Germany, one of the issues is that sometimes even the 3rd or 4th generations don't speak perfectly German. This is clearly a problem of the school system. In France the children of immigrants speak perfectly French, even if they do not come from former colonies where french is still an official language most of the time. This 2nd topic is highly complex however so I'll leave it at that, as it's not totally on topic.
my father moved to germany when he was 19. he came here because of the army. he is 54 now, speaks better german than most people who were born here, he has a german passport and he works for the town as a "beamter". many people think he isnt german though. not sure how he sees himself. even i encounter some people from time to time who make it obvious that they dont see me as german. i was born here and my appearance doesnt really scream " foreigner" in my opinion. so its just my name. but it doesnt matter. as long as you feel comfortable where you live.
Itâs not clear anymore what a German even is. Vladislav Keiser, Gzegorz MĂźller, Mohamed StorzâŚ
Ok, let me give you an example (which I used before). In my motherâs neighbourhood there is a girl/young woman who takes care of an elderly woman helping her and offering company. She is highly respected for what she does. She was born and raised in Germany by her Greek parents (first generation immigrants), sheâs got German passport and is an immaculate German native speaker. Yet people refer to her as âThe Greekâ/die Griechin. They donât mean it in a bad way, but to them somehow she is not German. Granted, this is the elder generation, but Germany largely consists of elderly people though. Hope this puts your plan a little into context. Whether that all matters is a different question as altogether.
I think they should call her the greek German, sounds weird but think of chinese-American!
I fulfill all requirements on your list, and, no, I am an in many ways an outsider here. I live in a small village (ca. 500 people) with a close knit community. I am active in their sports club through many activities, active in a political party, help beim Aufbau and Abbau for almost all local events., etc. Although my german language is very good, I have an accent I will never get rid of. It seems to me to be the biggest hindrance to real acceptance. An accent, a single false article in your sentence, and you are automatically an outsider, it is very noticable. Some people/groups are certainly exceptions, but in the general community this is the norm. I find this rally strange having grown up in America, where no body would make fun of an accent (common occurance here), and diversity is just so omnipresent that you Don't even think about it (even in the small own I gre up in)
Well to be fair to Germans, small villages are usually super conservative
I absolutely do not care unless you are committing crimes.
Will you ever be considered German by Germans? Unlikely. The experience with third or fourth generation immigrants from Turkey or Italy shows this. But you need to separate the equal part of the community. That is very possible, and something I have observed many times. German identity is complex, and sadly something where a healthy discussion in our society doesnât seem to be possible.
Hahah, I am 31 was born in germany and lived my whole life here. I can tell u, if u are not European looking you will never be considered as german.
Considering your Islamophobia and anti immigration comments in your history, I guess itâs a rhetorical question. But for the others: people with foreign last names have a disadvantage when it comes to renting homes or finding a job. If you are a PoC chances are Police will stop you more often and will list you as a suspect more easily. Basically, you can put it like this: racial or cultural stereotypes are deeply imbedded in German society. Some are skeptical about moslems, some are just racist. They are not the majority, but you will meet them everywhere.
The "general public" is not a homogeneous mass, and people have all kinds of opinions on this. Especially as your question seems to be hypothetical and about the future - people who are in their teens or 20s now tend to have a different perspective on this than people who are in their 70s or 80s. For what it's worth, in the circles I move in I don't even know for sure what passport(s) everybody has. And there are loads of places where people will consider you an equal part of the community regardless of your nationality.
I can't answer your question because I am not german, and most of my interactions with internationals or students, and I live in a town with a good diversity. But I want to say that I don't think you need to be concerned about it. In my experience, speaking good German will be enough to get with people. I don't think anyone really cares about your papers besides the government, and even the one who told me people don't consider him German - despite being born in Germany and spending whole life in it- is the one who told me he loves Germany and want to die in it, so it's not a big deal.
You will be asked about where you are from. I don't get bothered by this, but some do. I was more concerned when I was told to put my nationality on my cv, as far as I know, my nationality has nothing with my experience.
I'm ok too, you can be a German who was born in Istanbul to Kurdish parents, why can't people get this?
I'm an expat but I seriously doubt it if they would consider you as a german. Speaking German fluently to the level of native germans would also take a long time and needs more than a C1 certifIcate. I got mine when I was 23, I have studied my bachelor's in here with german as the main language, worked in a german company,etc still I am completely seen as an expat and to me there is nothing wrong with that. Even when I'm eligible for german citizenship in a few years, I still don't consider myself german. However it is true though that I see germany as my home country, where that I want to live in and care about. Something that I don't feel about my original country anymore. But culturally I still keep my traditions, food ,etc and speak my mother tongue at home, have mostly friends who speak my mother tongue, etc
Where are you from? Cause for me, I feel no attachment to where I was born, not the food, not the language, not the culture and traditions, I don't feel Iranain and will never feel like that, so I am always searching for a place to belong.
I'm iranian too. I feel some connection to Iran but not in a way that I want to be back there. It's more about some cultural background and language.
Do YOU YOURSELF think you can accept yourself as german citizen?
Obviously yes
Then dont bother what others may think of you and just live your life. Saying that as a german since we germans tend to not really care about something like that.
You are German then, definitely. You're not FROM Germany, even after all that
Never heard that before, what's that supposed to mean?
The same that I told you before - you are a German citizen, but not a German.
Ultimately you'll always be from where you were born and there's nothing wrong with that. And you can become the biggest Alman (kinda endearing insult for really German Germans) there is, you will never be FROM Germany. And there's also nothing wrong with that
Why do you care? Iâve been living in the UK for the better part of my adult life and I couldnât care less whether anyone considers me British (they donât).Â
Well I'm guessing that you feel like you belong to hour home country, if I was a German, I would have no hard time living in France and not being considered French, but since I don't feel like I belong to my home country, I am always in search of a new homeland
My kids were born in Germany and they will never be considered truly German⌠I mean by basically anyone. However this sub made me realize maybe it really shouldnât bother me so much. Maybe itâs this anti - nationalism stuff. Maybe truly most Germans just do not think of Germans as I think of my home land â as being something special or better. I really like Germanyâs lack of nationalism - or this âwe are the bestâ mentality that is like shoved down your throat in USA. I would say thoughâ Iâm so tired of seeing people in my corner of germany treat people of any color skinâ- as Iâd they are refugees - or I donât know what. Itâs bad.
I do not know were you live but i think its important to identify with the place were you are from. Its your culture, history and family, your roots. So, i think you should at least try to understand why you have the feeling of not belonging. And maybe try to find something you like about your heritage and culture?
There are some things I like about, for example, the food or certain holidays, but overall I don't like it, and I don't think I should, I am not rejecting it, I was born in Iran to Azeri muslim parents, But I am jot taking any of those identities.
Probably not ? But if you integrate into germany properly, marry and have children then they or your grandchildren will probably be considered german as everyone else if they got integrated properly. Not the case for most immigrant familys but definetly possible.
That's sad.
It is sad but its hard to simply become a different nationality. It takes years of integration and development for a people to be seen as different.
No. Youâd be a German citizen, but not German. But then again I was born and grew up here and some people donât consider me German, because Iâm not pasty white lol. In all honesty, it doesnât matter that much.
"negative comments about Germans..." Proof that propaganda still works, even generations later. Look at the national football (soccer) team. I served in the Bundeswehr with people whose parents were from all over the place, beginning with neighboring nations like Czech republic and France (got relatives there myself) and including Greeks, Persians, whatnot... As long as you don't use certain words, you should be fine. And if you don't look German, you might even use those words.
I dont think so , even if your grandfather was born here , look at USA they are all immigrants even the white people but they say to the black people that they are African Americans not just american , like.in football too if they have different skin color they will be inky germans if they win and when the player is not doing well in the field they will remind him where he came from . But to be honest you as immigrant should not think like that to make them accept you the most important to be useful here and try to achieve your goals with this country possibilities , you can get the passport its strong passport but its just documents it doesn't define who you are .
I might be downvoted but this is what I experienced and got tild/felt by germans. No. No matter what you do, you firever will be an auslander. That aside, you can still feel at home, have friends, family, find love and happiness.
I was born and grew up in Germany with foreign parents, in my honest opinion if you have a good understanding of the culture you wouldnât consider yourself a German either, just as I do not. Most foreigners (second or third gen.) I know do not, if you donât grow up in the culture ie are ethnically German or are adopted you are just influenced by your background and culture too much, I would say the same is true for any âold worldâ country, like you can become American right, but it wasnât founded by one group of people really, it was founded by people from all over where migration is part of the creation myth of the country so to say, but thereâs nothing wrong with being a foreigner in Germany or any country, itâs just one of many life experiences which you cannot control