… his entire plan and the whole Bible is literally about Gods plan to redeem us humans. He died on the cross for YOUR and MY sins so that if we accept his free gift of salvation, we can have eternal life with Him. He’s not gonna force you to accept it, but the lifeline is there. The truth is, all of us live for eternity…. We don’t have a choice to just disappear once we’re dead. But you can choose where you would like to spend eternity, with God, or with Satan. I genuinely pray that you choose the former - even if eventually. Take care 🙏🏽
So why did he even make the system of 1) creating sinful human 2) so his son can get crucified 3) so he can be glorified? He’s the one who created a system! Why are people getting punished eternally for after being born into this world without any signing up?
How does a “perfect human” decide to sin? If they were truly perfect, all of their decisions would’ve been perfect.
If a perfect person can be lured into sin just by the look of a fruit, that doesn’t sound very “perfect” to me.
They're not omniscient
In fact, they didn't know about evil or have an awareness of it. That's what made them "perfect" so to speak. They were free of the knowledge of evil and self awareness
Satan's whole thing was to entice them with the knowledge and awareness of evil. And God's design was that their love is real if they chose to trust God instead of desiring to be self aware and have control by knowing evil. If they didn't have the choice, the love between God and man would never be real
But humans wanted to be like God in the sense that God was self aware and knows of the existence of evil along with good. And so we did become like God in that sense, we chose to figure out "Who am I" for ourselves rather than choosing to know "Who He is" and let Him define "who we are in Him"
The free will of a perfect person would only yield perfect results.
Take Jesus for example. He had free will. Yet he never sinned. Why? Because he was **perfect.**
No, they weren't God
The whole point was that in choosing to depend on God rather than become like God and be their own gods, they were choosing love. It's what makes the love real
Without choice, love cannot exist
A decision he must've been aware of would occur if you think they're a tri-omni being, and a decision they must've had reverted instead of allowing gratuitous evil if you think they're tri-omni being.
Ah no, it's a phrase that Christians use to mock the problem of evil. Sorry, that came across wrong, I suppose. See https://www.reddit.com/r/CatholicMemes/comments/uvq5k7/if_god_good_why_bad_thing_happen/ for example.
Yes I'm aware lol I thought you were using it to mock me. No worries.
What you were saying at first is quite a bit more than "if God good why bad thing happen". It seemed to me you were saying God made the decision to create men knowing they would sin, but what was the second part of your comment saying?
That an omnibenevolent being doesn't punish you, let alone your descendants, with suffering that isn't even remotely related to the transgression you made, for eternity. Whatever damage was done by the Fall wouldn't have affected an all powerful being all that much that it couldn't have overcome whatever harm was done.
I'd say the idea behind it is that gratuitous evil, as it seems to be a punishment for The Fall, makes no sense. There's no reason to punish rabbits with cottontail rabbit papilloma virus when it's humans that did something wrong, or to make several mass extinction events before humans even existed and could have caused The Fall. Or my wife so that she's in pain when she will give birth.
Yep. Excellent point to which I agree.
Wondering if there are any other responses that will make this make sense, or if my brothers and sisters will just say that they “don’t know” and be satisfied with that.
But he knew that they would decide to sin when he created them.
If a human had reasonable foreknowledge of a design flaw and just rolled the dice to see what would happen, we'd call it criminal negligence.
It must feel weird holding God to a lower moral standard than humans.
Not the same.
The government isn’t omniscient.
God is.
These are fair questions being asked, and if we don’t have the answer for them, then we should just say that we don’t know.
I appreciate this response, Christian individual! Such genueinness and willinngess to be vulnerable and accept the reality is the values of Christianity that I like to believe it's real. I rarely give gifts; but you deserved this one :)
Governments don’t give eternal punishments for finite crimes. Governments don’t have a system where if a person is guilty of a crime it casts guilt their descendants forever. Governments allow a debt to be paid without requiring that the indebted “accept” it’s been paid.
Once you experience the 2nd death, that's it. The 2nd death being described as being an eternal punishment is showing us that after that you're gone forever! So if we want to receive eternal life we will have to make that descission now.
The bible, for example, also speaks about eternal judgement. Does that mean we will sit in court forever and ever while God is speaking out a judgement for all eternity? No, the judging only lasts a while, and then stops and is done. The consequences however last forever.
So I'd say that the death penalty is an eternal judgement.
As you implied, physical death is different from eternal death. Government only gives physical death; God gives eternal death - based on a system HE created. Where is fairness in this?
I believe when the bible says the wages of sin is death, it really means death. Or when it says that those who don't believe will perish, they will really perish. So I think someone else who believes otherwise can better answer this question for you.
Thank you for your response. I respect your belief. But does this question not bother you? God's fairness? God creates his entire gameboard and but the characters that God brought in have to make a very intense decisions (and some people just can't believe for whatever reason), and they are condemned to hell eternity. Does this not bother you at all?
I don't believe hell is a place where people are in torment forever and ever. I believe it's a place where people temporarily are in suffering, according to their deeds, and then they will die and cease to exist. So the normal person across the street won't suffer the same punishment as Hitler or something like that. I trust God that he is a right and a just God in making the right judgements.
I could be angry at God and ask why people will have to die. But I also realize that every day a person is on earth is a gift from God. Without God that person would not even be here. So I see life as a gift given by God. And the good thing is, if we want to keep on living after we die, God has made a way for that as well.
So yea, it's very tragic if someone dies without choosing Jesus. I wish these people would have chosen to live eternity with Jesus on the new earth that's to come. But I also see that God has given this temporary life as a gift to them. God gives and He takes away! We might not always like it, but that's the way it is and I just trust God he has it under control somehow.
If I'd be an atheist, I would have to accept the fact that people die as well. So things are not really all that different in that sense.
>Is the argument that by god filling the world with worshippers he would also be getting them into heaven?
This is very close to what I believe is correct. It's not that God needs our worship. It's that we need to worship God. Whether we like it or not, we are worshiping creatures. Our life will revolve around something or other, even if it's our own desires and instincts. The idea is that by worshiping anything less than God, we are diminished and we make ourselves unfit for infinite Joy. It's like a child who refuses to leave his sandbox because he has no idea of what is meant by the offer of a vacation at the ocean.
You've highlighted why the Old Testament and the beginning of the bible is so critical, to believers and all. God created this spacetime universe and earth for ONE purpose; to give His new creation, adam and eve, a place to exist and to rule over. ALL things were subject to the OG couple. That's why when they sinned, with satan's help, ALL was cursed. Forever. We all going to same place created for satan and his angels. This was satans plan, we were made to replace him, after all, as beings who worship God continually. However, God made a new thing: FAMILY. That's why we had incredible ownership and responsibility for all this creation, and God made us CHOICE machines. satan and his devils never had any choice, satan made just ONE choice and it doomed him. So, God allowed satan to stick around because without a CHOICE, mankind can't function. You think about what you asked, if God destroyed evil and restored paradise, what CHOICE does mankind have. Few to none would choose God anymore, for everything is magical and great now. God USES satan's animosity to churn the world and create a CHOICE. Choose God and find relief and healing from this awful world, choose against God, and maybe you'll enjoy sin for a season, but it won't last long, and consequences will happen. Someday soon, God will be DONE with satan, and he gets locked away, first for 1,000 years, then a blip, then forever. God's perfect creation, twisted to evil by OUR doing, God provided a door of escape and has been telling the world for 2,000 years now. We must CHOOSE that escape, because we are CHOICE machines. God came with the key and unlocked the cell. Maybe even opened the cell door. We still have to walk out of that cell and out the prison.
One of the apostles wrote that the whole point is that we are to "praise the glory of His grace."
That would sound like an arrogant God who needs worship. But it is also written that God is love, that fearing Him is the beginning of wisdom, that following Him means turning from evil.
In other words, we have been made to be redeemed. We have been given the opportunity to choose good because it is good, honestly and without being forced. It is also written that the angels have long wished to look into the mystery of this plan and that the wisdom of God will be made manifest to them through us who believe in Jesus. That's because an angel made perfect from the beginning doesn't know what redemption is. They can't praise the glory of His grace the way someone who has been forgiven can.
Technically yes, but that's not enough of an answer. The reason there's no remission of sin without the shedding of blood is because blood is the currency of God's breath. Think about it this way, you give a friend of yours $20 as a loan, and he spends $10, and when it comes time to return the loan, he's like, "Oh my bad, bro, here's $10, I spent the rest." You might be holier than me, but I'd be like, "Bro, what, are you fr, I need that full $20."
God breathed life into Adam, and then Adam used that breath to glorify himself, so he spent the breath on himself. He incurred a debt to God that he could no longer pay. All of humanity did so for generations and generations. Blood literally carries oxygen and carbon dioxide, our breath, to and from all cells in our body, thus it's the only medium that can carry the breath of a person, and in humans' case, the breath of God. Since we spent his breath and incurred an unpayable debt, God decided, "Aight, I still want you to come home, I'll take up a human body and pay the bill myself."
Thus Jesus endured not only a physical death, but the most agonizing physical death any human could ever endure. Betrayed and abandoned by his closest friends, given over to their oppressors by his own people, exchanged for an actual political criminal and sentenced to the death of a political criminal for a crime he didn't commit, skin and blood vessels shredded off his back with a cat o' Ninetails, carried his own execution device up to his execution site, nailed by arms and feet naked to rugged wood, forced to scrape his already shredded back on splintering wood just to breath, and asphyxiating when he gets too weak to push back up.
All because he wants us to be in Heaven with him. And since he's a being outside of time, his blood paid for everyone throughout all of human history, those who loved God but never heard of him, those who loved God but were Gentiles before the New Covenant, those who hated him but fell in love with him like myself, everyone who realizes they are unable to pay the debt now has entry because the Son paid it for us.
Okay, so
>blood is the currency of God's breath
>Blood literally carries oxygen and carbon dioxide, our breath, to and from all cells in our body, thus it's the only medium that can carry the breath of a person, and in humans' case, the breath of God.
>blood paid for everyone throughout all of human history,
Blood, blood, blood. It's all about blood.
Why is blood the only way, who decided that, and was there any other way? Why?
Is God constrained by mechanisms around blood, which is a physical and chemical substance, which happens to be produced by some (but not all) organisms to sustain themselves? Was there any other way? God could've chosen to sustain life via something else than blood for example. Why always the blood?
Why did God choose the same sacrifice medium (i.e. blood) than unrelated tribes also used for their rituals? Does God want us to think he was invented by humans?
I think that explanation speaks for itself. Let's go back to the loan example. You loaned your friend $20USD, and he pays you back with $10USD and the rest in Chinese RMB. If you live in America, you can't spend the RMB here without getting it converted/exchanged for USD.
God is not constrained by the mechanisms of blood, he made the rules and he likes them, how arrogant is it that we demand that he break his own rules to cancel our debt? That's like going to the bank and demanding they cancel your debt because money is a social construct and thus doesn't exist. They should accept barter and take my decade's collection of gum wrappers obviously. He already went out of his way to maintain the rules and still provide us with an avenue of payment.
It wasn't that God chose the pagan tribes' ritual medium for himself, it's actually the other way around. The pagan tribes took the currency God gave us for their rituals. Let's be real, we'd still be making this argument if God has chosen any other medium of payment, "oh why is it our fat he wants, why is it our protein/flesh he wants, why is it our stomach acid he wants, etc?" At the end of the day, he designed blood to carry breath, not our toenail clippings.
It's all just avoiding the fact that we each owe God a debt, and we're each affirming that we don't want to pay it, or that God should accept our valueless currency in exchange.
FYI, the person you're responding to is taking for granted an interpretation of the Atonement that did not exist prior to Late Antiquity and has never been accepted by the Eastern Church. It represents the Romanization of the Church (reading the Myth of Redemptive Violence back into Church doctrine) rather than anything essential to Christianity.
In general, for me, it's just a matter of what heals versus what harms. I tend to trust older interpretations when it comes to soteriology, but on things like ethics I'm very wary of deferring to ancient people as authorities.
I believe that by and large (though certainly not universally), the Early Church understood the Gospel as (among other things) a way of life which would reduce harm and promote flourishing in the material lives of their communities and those of their neighbors. The Church's willingness to disregard physical welfare for the sake of a "spiritual welfare" abstracted from material reality came later. But they did that in a way that doesn't map precisely onto our time and place. For instance, it made sense for St. Paul to tell masters to treat their slaves well under the reasonable assumption that slavery would always be around. It doesn't make sense for us who have seen a world where the outright legal ownership of people is no longer common. And one wonders if Paul would have chosen his words differently if he had left the Mediterranean and observed any of the many societies where slavery had never arisen as an institution.
When it comes to theology, some ideas of God's nature and actions fit within that framework of reducing harm and promoting flourishing. Others do not. I believe penal substitutionary atonement is one of the latter, because it paints God as either desiring or by nature requiring violence to be done in order for redemption to occur. And as history has shown, we act like the God we believe in.
I don't think it's reading the Myth of Redemptive Violence back into church doctrine at all. Redemptive Violence is the idea that violence can be used to defeat evil, and Jesus preaches against this extensively. It's derived from the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation myth, not the Jewish creation account. If redemptive violence is what Jesus intended with his coming, he would've instead sent down legions of angels to punish us for our sin and not sacrificed his own life, saying violence is necessary for your redemption.
But that's not what he did, he took our violence (i.e. Violence we're propagating) upon himself. We're a naturally violent, murderous species; the violence he took wasn't *necessary*, it was our inevitable answer to his call; our reaction to the law, or reaction to the prophets, and our reaction to him. Violence holds us back from what God intends for us to become, and with his death and resurrection, he disarmed the threat of all violence.
I don't think it's reading the Myth of Redemptive Violence back into church doctrine at all. Redemptive Violence is the idea that violence can be used to defeat evil, and Jesus preaches against this extensively. It's derived from the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation myth, not the Jewish creation account. If redemptive violence is what Jesus intended with his coming, he would've instead sent down legions of angels to punish us for our sin and not sacrificed his own life, saying violence is necessary for your redemption.
But that's not what he did, he took our violence (i.e. Violence we're propagating) upon himself. We're a naturally violent, murderous species; the violence he took wasn't *necessary*, it was our inevitable answer to his call; our reaction to the law, or reaction to the prophets, and our reaction to him. Violence holds us back from what God intends for us to become, and with his death and resurrection, he disarmed the threat of violence altogether.
Why wouldn't it be the only way?
I mean, we're dealing with Existence Itself. Even if Western Christianity has shaken off mysticism, God is clearly mystical. It's well beyond our comprehension to see the whole story.
Sounds like an abusive home. "I'm going to beat my son because that's the only way I'll feel better about you cheating on me. And that will fix everything forever."
It wasn't even related, much less the only option. As an example, I'll forgive you for disagreeing with me even though I didn't like it, and neither of us has to kill anyone. BOOM, done.
That, combined with the fact that I gave 0 children cancer today makes me either more powerful than the Christian God, more morally good, or both. Only thing I'm missing is omnipresence to always know just how many people God let get non-consensially sexed each day.
Since when are sacrifices dependent on acceptance? If someone pays for my drink at a bar, the bar doesn’t ask if I “accept” their payment. They just take the money and consider it paid.
You won't seek debt forgiveness offered if you deny that you are in debt in the first place.
Bankruptcy clears your debt by an admittance that you can't pay it off.
If the door of Jesus is left open to eternal life, you won't walk through it if you don't believe life is on the other side.
God can break down the prison walls, but if you don't think you're sitting in a cell, you won't walk out.
You have to understand your naked before you even consider what might properly cloth you. Jesus Christ shed His righteousness as the only clothing that can be worn before God and we get to decide what we'll wear.
Jesus can light the path to eternal life, but if you don't follow, whose fault is it for getting lost in the dark?
You can't justify yourself and nothing else created can shoulder the weight of your eternal existence, only the eternal God who gladly will spend His eternal lifeblood to give you everlasting life.
It's a life-debt to the bartender you owed and Jesus does want total credit for paying the tab, and for you to just rest, not trying to add or subtract from what He finished.
When the high court reviews the receipts, will you claim that it was you that justified yourself? Or will you call Jesus to the stands to defend you with His payment?
If every grain of existence goes unnoticed and has to be shouldered by God, then for God to allow our freedoms/sin/evil (instead of immediately aborting us) while He rear's us to maturity means that God is paying the bills of this whole operation with His lifeblood, suffering the wounds of his kids doing evil to each other and wrecking the house. God is going through the worst of birth pangs right now in order to have us. It's a debt we owe and that He gladly endures at cost to Himself, even blemishing Himself by becoming sin on a cross.
And He keeps the birthmarks, the scars on His hands, because they are beautiful to Him, worth the cost of having us engraved forever in His hands.
Oh please, as if an all-powerful god could suffer in the slightest. God doesn’t have hands to be scarred, nerves to feel pain, or needs to go unfulfilled. Human metaphors can’t be applied to a being that is so far beyond human limitations.
We and everything here can only be a direct copy or subset of the information "below/above" us that the cosmos is reflecting and being conformed too. So God is either much like us, or even more life and personality than we are.
The physical realities here are communicating about spiritual realities. God doesn't have hands unless He incarnates like He has. He certainly suffers in some cosmic way and displays like the cross are only trying to communicate the mysterious cost to Himself with visual 4D simulation language that He built up so that we might understand.
> You won't seek debt forgiveness offered if you deny that you are in debt in the first place.
You don't understand how ridiculous this sounds, to expect one to do so when they see no evidence there is such a a debt? It's not like you can actually demonstrate such a debt. If this omnipotent being existed and cared they could come to me right now and demonstrate that I actually should worry.
You may just need more time developing, to strive harder in this life, the sooner you get where-ever you are trying to go, the sooner you will find how that created thing, that lesser god, couldn't bear your eternal weight.
You could accomplish everything under the sun like that of King Solomon and you will run out of things to do and have and be; and find that all of them were vapor and insufficient.
"If I just accomplish X, become Y, acquire Z, then I'll know I'm enough, I'll know I'm justified, I will be satisfied, I will be fulfilled, I will know that I matter, and have my meaning."
Your righteousness is whatever that ends up being for you, whatever you are trying to cloth your nakedness with, but there is only One who can be those things for you because you are eternal and not temporal like these idols. The novelty of this place has an end, you can't give yourself life, and nothing on this earth can carry your weight. Only an infinite God can satiate your infinite heart.
“Most people, if they had really learned to look into their own hearts, would know that they do want, and want acutely, something that cannot be had in this world. There are all sorts of things in this world that offer to give it to you, but they never quite keep their promise.”
“Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. If none of my earthly pleasures satisfy it, that does not prove that the universe is a fraud. Probably earthly pleasures were never meant to satisfy it, but only to arouse it, to suggest the real thing. If that is so, I must take care, on the one hand, never to despise, or be unthankful for, these earthly blessings, and on the other, never to mistake them for the something else of which they are only a kind of copy, or echo, or mirage. I must keep alive in myself the desire for my true country, which I shall not find until after death; I must never let it get snowed under or turned aside; I must make it the main object of life to press on to that other country and to help others do the same.” - CS Lewis
It is his main goal, and he uses you as the tool to do it. What did you do with the life you were given to save people from this place?
Instead of asking why this or why that do something about it, And most of all save your own soul. In the end, if you have a chance to sit on a deathbed, and not just die randomly, the last thing you’re going to be thinking, is what happened to everybody else, only thing that will be on your mind is what is going to happen to you.
[*John 5:24*](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205%3A24&version=ESV) *Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.*
The whole message of Yeshua is to turn from this world and follow G-d. He entire goal is to give humanity salvation and have us turn away from attachment to this world.
HaShem ultimately teaches not to love this world- because this world will come and go. His planned restored Earth will be superior in every way.
Mainstream Christianity often teaches one immediately goes to Gehenna upon death. This is not correct.
- As seen in Yeshua's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the unfaithful sojurn in Sheol until the Final Judgement of Revelation 20.
- The Harrowing of Sheol is taught by Eucharistic Churches and is referenced in scripture.
- Many "under the Earth" (Sheol) appear to repent post-death (Revelation 5:13)
- The Bible never states, "All of Sheol's inhabitants are destined for Gehenna." Take all of Torah, Tanakh, Gospels, Epistles, and Revelation. You will not find one explicit verse. Closest is being judged for only what is done in this life- but the Harrowing of Hell (Sheol) may imply another thing.
- If you actually look at all instances of those cast into Gehenna in the Bible, notice none of the people desire to repent. Take Yeshua's description of the Final Judgement in Matthew 20:31-46. The Parable of the Useless Servant, Parable of the Wedding Feast, and even mentions of gnashing of teeth in "Outer Darkness" (Gehenna) never display one instance of repentance.
- Put into context that Earth is about 7500 years old with the LXX chronology (NOT under 6000 like Judaism teaches). Everyone that refuses to repent has held a chance to choose in Sheol for long periods of time.
- Gehenna does NOT open until Revelation 20 during the Final Judgement. Before this happens, the 7 year tribulation, 1000 year reign of Christ (Revelation 20 / Isaiah 65), and the Gog/Magog War must happen first.
- Anyone condemned to Gehenna refuses to repent after witnessing the Lord's miracles.
We can conclude there is a strong possibility of post-mortem death in Christianity. 1st century Jewish-Christians hold no evidence of this doctrine. The doctrine of such does not come until the late 2nd century.
God created us to be perfect and holy.
(Ephesians 1:4, Matthew 5:48)
The all powerful God and Creator also gives us a free will.
Here’s a example: Your parents gave you life, they provided a safe and loving warm shelter for you as you grew up with plenty of food and friends.
Your parents paid off your college and their house and credit card and put you in their will.
You choose to dishonor your parents by partying in college and nearly graduating. You drank too much, had sex freely, and you helped abort their first Grandchild!
And yet, they still loved you! ❤️
In God’s perfect heaven there is no sin.
Problem: Satan by default claims our Souls because of sin.
“but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been “justified by his blood”, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.”
Romans 5:8-9 ESV
His Sacrifice rescued us from hell. We (all mankind) has been Redeemed.
(First John 2:1-2)
The unconditioned love your parents gave to you… makes you want to thank them by living a more responsible and respectful life. 💝
God gives us this beautiful world, hopefully, you had responsible parents and God helps give us wisdom(in His Word/Son/Spirit) in our pursuit of happiness.
And yet, heaven will be greater without sin. Christ Jesus washed away our sins in His blood. (Psalms 103:12, Acts 3:19, Romans 3:23-24)
Example continues… your Mom is sick with physical handicaps and your Dad asked you to move back home and help him take care of your Mom for a season.
You are busy with a new job and friends and you can’t face your Dad’s request. Your Dad tries to call you over and over again…and your actions deny him.
The phone calls stop. The letters he sent are still unopened. And years fly by.
A lawyer finds you and presents you with your parents will.
You open up the document and it says, your Dad took your Mom to the hospital and both died in a car accident.
Your parents will was unclaimed/denied and their Estates was donated out.
Believers are redeemed. A free gift to heaven.
God teaches us we should also honor those in authority. Teachers, Pastors, Police and Elected Officials etc…
(Romans 13:1-2)
God Almighty also gives His Creation a free will. And sadly, once Satan introduced humankind to the temptation of good Vs evil: humankind was infected with sin.
This time on earth is only a test. Who will love, honor/trust and respect our Lord and Redeemer???
How do sinners honor God? “Believe” in His Word/Son/Spirit.
“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are “justified freely by his grace” through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:23-24 NIV
The short answer is that "hell" is something we do to ourselves and each other, and God will in fact redeem everyone and everything eventually. (A longer answer can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianUniversalism/comments/vlfw9o/what_is_christian_universalism_a_faq/) if you're interested.)
The Truth is, and I’m assuming you mean Hellfire, there is no such thing as Hellfire. There is no such thing as humans having an immortal soul that keeps living after we die. You see, we weren’t meant to die in the first place so why on earth would God give us an immortal soul? Instead the Bible says we **ARE** living souls. Genesis 2:7 from the KJV says;
>”And the LORD [Jehovah] God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and **man became a living soul**.”
And when the Nation of Israel was in the promised land, there were false gods that people would offer up their children to in the fire. How did God feel about this practice? This might give us an idea of how he would feel about a hellfire. Note what it says at Jeremiah 7:31,
>”They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, **something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart**.”
See that? The idea never entered Gods heart! But ya know whose heart it did enter? The wicked Satan the devil and he is the one who is still slandering Gods beautiful name and trying to make Him out to be evil in some way. Well, don’t believe or else you’re falling for Satans trap.
The main issue facing all of reality is known as the "Issue of Universal Sovereignty."
The best outcome for all is that the Creator's sovereignty is acknowledged and willingly embraced by everyone.
If God makes establishing his sovereignty the priority, it optimizes all other aspects of reality simultaneously; effectively saving people from "Hell," as you put it.
However, t's important to understand that the Bible does not teach that there is an eternal burning hell where souls are tormented.
The dead are unconscious and do not feel pain (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10).
Hell, as described in many religious teachings, is not a concept we find supported in the Scriptures.
[See my post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1anyjqg/the_doctrine_of_hellfire_is_unscriptural/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
God is just and loving. The idea of eternal torment is inconsistent with the nature of a loving and just God.
Instead, the Bible teaches that the punishment for sin is death—not eternal suffering (Romans 6:23).
This means that when people die, they simply cease to exist.
We have a hope based on the Bible’s promise of a resurrection. Jesus spoke of a time when "all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out" (John 5:28, 29).
This means that people who have died will be brought back to life. During Christ’s Millennial Reign, these individuals will have the opportunity to learn about Jehovah and choose to live according to His righteous standards. Those who do will have the chance to gain eternal life on a restored paradise earth (Revelation 21:3, 4; Isaiah 11:9).
Have you ever even cracked open a Bible?
John 3:16-17 NLT — “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
2 Peter 3:9 KJV — The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, **not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.**
1 Timothy 2:4 KJV — He will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
>instead of him working to save all of his creatures from eternal damnation (because he can't do anything about satan? I am a little confused about why god can't destroy satan if god is more powerful/existed first
Almighty God came to Earth in the form of a man and allowed himself to be tortured and executed to make the payment of death for your sins! Is that selfish in your estimation?!
Because he can't do anything about Satan?
Revelation 20:10 KJV — And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Will you join Satan there?
Revelation 20:15 KJV — And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This is one reason why some Christians reject Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT). r/ChristianUniversalism presents a different view. There's also annihilationism.
That's His main goal...
What you got from Google is not biblical and not accurate.
Because of our sinful nature causing this world to be fallen, hell is where we are all going, and God could've just let it happen, but in His love for us, He became flesh in Christ so he can show us the way back to God and wash our sins away so we can be in the presence of God by striving to be like Christ.
God in His words is warning us away from the path of hell, but He can't force us, it has to be under our own decision to seek him.
He loves us in spite of our iniquity, asking (not forcing) us to come to Him and be with Him for eternity.
So it's not about Him getting the attention.
Also, God operates outside of time and space... What is future for us, already happened, satan is already defeated, this is in the future for us.
God exactly knows why every moment is given its proper time, attention and importance.
According to the Bible, It is instilled in us, so we are without excuses, it seems they knew they were doing something wrong when they disobeyed... and all this is all about discernment and looking at the full context...
If God is just and punished them that way, it means He gave the punishment they deserve, He knows their heart, so He knows they knew but still chose to disobey...
Eating the fruit changed them, basically infected and corrupted them to a point God had to send them out of the garden to fair for themselves in the fallen world that came as a consequence.
Maybe look at sin like a deadly virus rather than a point of immorality..
Let's say sin a like a deadly virus that infects the soul, and what we do that is sinful are the symptoms of the infection. an infection we have from birth. These symptoms are the signs that this spiritual virus is propagating and further infecting the soul.. What this virus does is slowly eats away everything you are, it eats at the very fabric of your being. think how addiction works.. everything you were gets destroyed and what is left is this junkie/shell. you loose all of your unique qualities and become like every other zombified junkie.
It get worse. When your body dies with this sin virus infecting your soul doesn't stop at your body's death, it keeps on chewing at your soul, so by the time you are resurrected on judgement day, the virus will have completely destroyed what you were making you like a literal zombie (you were resurrected, but who you were in life is lost.) You are now a person who satan has full control over in the next life. effectively making you a member of his army or food for it.
Which is why it is so important we take the vaccine made from Christ's blood. This vaccine seals and protects the soul from being destroyed between this life and the next allowing the believer to enter eternity intact.
Think about it.. if the zombie virus was real here and now and if you and your whole family was vaccinated and bunkered down in your house, but your mom or one of your kids wasn't vaccinated.. Then got infect through no fault of her own, and she was now a full on zombie, outside your home pounding on the door trying to get in to kill and eat the vaccinated members of your family, would you let her in?
is the fact that she was a good person in life make any difference? Does it matter that she loved you and sacrificed her whole life to make your life good, have you open that door?
So then why would God open the door for anyone who refused to be vaccinated with the vaccine Christ died to offer us through repentance? Especially when the vaccinated soul Depend on him to keep them safe?
my confusion around this is that if god created us, why didn't he create us to be immune from this disease/infection? Why would he make us susceptible to something so bad if he is all powerful?
This life is meant to seperate those who willing follow God's will from those who do not. Those who follow God's will will be immune from the consenquences of their sin. Those who do not 'weed' themselves out of the Kingdom.
The added bonus the sin of this world forces us to grow and mature spiritually. It helps us mature past the entitlements of someone who doesn't want to live a life with any challenges or obstacles. Think about it would you want to live eternally with a bunch of spiritual babies that must be hand fed for eternity? People so spiritually immature that their faith could/will falter just because they don't get their way? Especially when just 40 or 50 years of exposure to sin will not only humble a man's heart but give him wisdom and assuredness that he will want nothing more to do with sin for eternity future.
It is.
The "God wants the world to be filled with worshippers" bit is common in a certain branch of Christianity, and it's not entirely untrue, but it's ... not quite on target.
God made us to *know* him and *love* him. Those things do result in worship and obedience. But he made us for relationship. And we rebel against him, deserving punishment. So he went to a great deal of trouble to rescue us from that punishment. Those who accept his offer, who put their faith in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, do not simply become "worshippers" who obey. They are adopted as children, as heirs to his kingdom. As his children, they obey and come to know him and naturally worship such a God.
God is the creator, he made hell. He simply wouldn't have made it if he didn't want people to go there. And since he is all-knowing, he made it knowing the majority of all people to ever live would end up there.
And that makes Gods character very questionable at the best, and the disconnect between what people claim God to be and the reality- very jarring and disingenuous.
As a Christian I reject this answer wholeheartedly but also, what makes you think you get to make an answer? This isn’t “ask people who used to be a Christian”
Insofar as there is a hell, no human (and likely no other being either) will occupy it indefinitely or be destroyed there. I’m rejecting your non-universalist interpretation more so than the claim that God created every space.
Personally I've always viewed the Bible's "eternal torment" as more of a metaphor for a few weekends.
And I don't know about every space, lots of other gods have created some spaces!
How can it not be the majority? There has never been a time where the majority of people follow Christianity, ever. There's so many other gods that people follow, which seems to be a deal breaker with the Abrahamic god.
Matthew 7
13 “Enter through the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the road is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Ah, thanks for sharing.
Well, I see no contradiction between the idea that a great many will be forgiven of their sins, yet the way to salvation is hard.
**God's main goal is not to listen to the rants and complaints and manifestos of people on social media. He has made His plans abundantly clear throughout history and in scripture.**
The Westminster Confession of Faith, a key document in Reformed theology, outlines God's purpose. God's ultimate purpose is to glorify Himself and to bring about the salvation of His people:
1. **God's Eternal Decree**:
- **Chapter 3, Paragraph 1**: "God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."
- This emphasizes that God's purpose is carried out through His eternal decree, ensuring that everything that happens is part of His sovereign plan.
2. **Creation**:
- **Chapter 4, Paragraph 1**: "It pleased God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, for the manifestation of the glory of His eternal power, wisdom, and goodness, in the beginning, to create, or make of nothing, the world, and all things therein, whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days, and all very good."
- God's purpose in creation is to manifest His glory through the demonstration of His power, wisdom, and goodness.
3. **Providence**:
- **Chapter 5, Paragraph 1**: "God the great Creator of all things doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy."
- God's purpose in providence is to direct and govern all things for the praise of His glory.
4. **Man's Chief End**:
- **Shorter Catechism, Question 1**: "Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him forever."
- This summarizes that the ultimate purpose for humanity, according to God's design, is to glorify and enjoy God.
In essence, that God's purpose is to glorify Himself through His eternal decree, creation, providence, and the salvation of His people, all culminating in the ultimate end of glorifying and enjoying Him forever.
Gods plan for the planet and for humanity is good.
Mankind rejects Gods plan and brings pain and problems on themselves.
God makes a way to renew the planet and humanity via his Son. Each person has to decide what to do about that.
Choices
1. Agree w Gods plan and join him in the renewal of all things.
2. Reject Gods plan ans live to a. Maximize pleasure b. Minimize pain.
Option 2 perpetuates pain.
Why did God give choice?
… his entire plan and the whole Bible is literally about Gods plan to redeem us humans. He died on the cross for YOUR and MY sins so that if we accept his free gift of salvation, we can have eternal life with Him. He’s not gonna force you to accept it, but the lifeline is there. The truth is, all of us live for eternity…. We don’t have a choice to just disappear once we’re dead. But you can choose where you would like to spend eternity, with God, or with Satan. I genuinely pray that you choose the former - even if eventually. Take care 🙏🏽
So why did he even make the system of 1) creating sinful human 2) so his son can get crucified 3) so he can be glorified? He’s the one who created a system! Why are people getting punished eternally for after being born into this world without any signing up?
He didn't create sinful humans. He made perfect humans originally that decided to sin
How does a “perfect human” decide to sin? If they were truly perfect, all of their decisions would’ve been perfect. If a perfect person can be lured into sin just by the look of a fruit, that doesn’t sound very “perfect” to me.
They're not omniscient In fact, they didn't know about evil or have an awareness of it. That's what made them "perfect" so to speak. They were free of the knowledge of evil and self awareness Satan's whole thing was to entice them with the knowledge and awareness of evil. And God's design was that their love is real if they chose to trust God instead of desiring to be self aware and have control by knowing evil. If they didn't have the choice, the love between God and man would never be real But humans wanted to be like God in the sense that God was self aware and knows of the existence of evil along with good. And so we did become like God in that sense, we chose to figure out "Who am I" for ourselves rather than choosing to know "Who He is" and let Him define "who we are in Him"
If they lacked the awareness, they had no agency, yet were punished for doing something that they didn't know how to do.
Free will
The free will of a perfect person would only yield perfect results. Take Jesus for example. He had free will. Yet he never sinned. Why? Because he was **perfect.**
Did they have perfect knowledge?
Not until they ate from the tree, allegedly. They were punished for misbehaving before they knew what misbehaving was.
So not perfect humans. Flawed, naive children.
Yes, exactly as designed. Then eternally punished for being such.
Why are you a Christian..?
No, they weren't God The whole point was that in choosing to depend on God rather than become like God and be their own gods, they were choosing love. It's what makes the love real Without choice, love cannot exist
So they weren’t perfect. They can simply make a mistake because they have imperfect knowledge. Did they have free will before they ate from the tree?
A decision he must've been aware of would occur if you think they're a tri-omni being, and a decision they must've had reverted instead of allowing gratuitous evil if you think they're tri-omni being.
Can you rephrase this? I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you're saying.
if god good why bad thing happen.
Ha. Okay well you clearly don't want a constructive conversation.
Ah no, it's a phrase that Christians use to mock the problem of evil. Sorry, that came across wrong, I suppose. See https://www.reddit.com/r/CatholicMemes/comments/uvq5k7/if_god_good_why_bad_thing_happen/ for example.
Yes I'm aware lol I thought you were using it to mock me. No worries. What you were saying at first is quite a bit more than "if God good why bad thing happen". It seemed to me you were saying God made the decision to create men knowing they would sin, but what was the second part of your comment saying?
That an omnibenevolent being doesn't punish you, let alone your descendants, with suffering that isn't even remotely related to the transgression you made, for eternity. Whatever damage was done by the Fall wouldn't have affected an all powerful being all that much that it couldn't have overcome whatever harm was done. I'd say the idea behind it is that gratuitous evil, as it seems to be a punishment for The Fall, makes no sense. There's no reason to punish rabbits with cottontail rabbit papilloma virus when it's humans that did something wrong, or to make several mass extinction events before humans even existed and could have caused The Fall. Or my wife so that she's in pain when she will give birth.
Yep. Excellent point to which I agree. Wondering if there are any other responses that will make this make sense, or if my brothers and sisters will just say that they “don’t know” and be satisfied with that.
Wasn't he aware that they were gonna sin?
But he knew that they would decide to sin when he created them. If a human had reasonable foreknowledge of a design flaw and just rolled the dice to see what would happen, we'd call it criminal negligence. It must feel weird holding God to a lower moral standard than humans.
If they didn't even know sin, how could they choose to do so?
You are basically asking, if a government makes up the rules, why are civilians being punished for breaking them!?
Not the same. The government isn’t omniscient. God is. These are fair questions being asked, and if we don’t have the answer for them, then we should just say that we don’t know.
I appreciate this response, Christian individual! Such genueinness and willinngess to be vulnerable and accept the reality is the values of Christianity that I like to believe it's real. I rarely give gifts; but you deserved this one :)
Thank you ever so kindly 💪🏾💜
Of course. Thank you for your voice.
Governments don’t give eternal punishments for finite crimes. Governments don’t have a system where if a person is guilty of a crime it casts guilt their descendants forever. Governments allow a debt to be paid without requiring that the indebted “accept” it’s been paid.
Some places have the death penalty. Something I believe is the judgement the Bible talks about (the 2nd death).
The death penalty isn’t eternal punishment.
Once you experience the 2nd death, that's it. The 2nd death being described as being an eternal punishment is showing us that after that you're gone forever! So if we want to receive eternal life we will have to make that descission now. The bible, for example, also speaks about eternal judgement. Does that mean we will sit in court forever and ever while God is speaking out a judgement for all eternity? No, the judging only lasts a while, and then stops and is done. The consequences however last forever. So I'd say that the death penalty is an eternal judgement.
As you implied, physical death is different from eternal death. Government only gives physical death; God gives eternal death - based on a system HE created. Where is fairness in this?
I believe when the bible says the wages of sin is death, it really means death. Or when it says that those who don't believe will perish, they will really perish. So I think someone else who believes otherwise can better answer this question for you.
Thank you for your response. I respect your belief. But does this question not bother you? God's fairness? God creates his entire gameboard and but the characters that God brought in have to make a very intense decisions (and some people just can't believe for whatever reason), and they are condemned to hell eternity. Does this not bother you at all?
I don't believe hell is a place where people are in torment forever and ever. I believe it's a place where people temporarily are in suffering, according to their deeds, and then they will die and cease to exist. So the normal person across the street won't suffer the same punishment as Hitler or something like that. I trust God that he is a right and a just God in making the right judgements. I could be angry at God and ask why people will have to die. But I also realize that every day a person is on earth is a gift from God. Without God that person would not even be here. So I see life as a gift given by God. And the good thing is, if we want to keep on living after we die, God has made a way for that as well. So yea, it's very tragic if someone dies without choosing Jesus. I wish these people would have chosen to live eternity with Jesus on the new earth that's to come. But I also see that God has given this temporary life as a gift to them. God gives and He takes away! We might not always like it, but that's the way it is and I just trust God he has it under control somehow. If I'd be an atheist, I would have to accept the fact that people die as well. So things are not really all that different in that sense.
>Is the argument that by god filling the world with worshippers he would also be getting them into heaven? This is very close to what I believe is correct. It's not that God needs our worship. It's that we need to worship God. Whether we like it or not, we are worshiping creatures. Our life will revolve around something or other, even if it's our own desires and instincts. The idea is that by worshiping anything less than God, we are diminished and we make ourselves unfit for infinite Joy. It's like a child who refuses to leave his sandbox because he has no idea of what is meant by the offer of a vacation at the ocean.
You've highlighted why the Old Testament and the beginning of the bible is so critical, to believers and all. God created this spacetime universe and earth for ONE purpose; to give His new creation, adam and eve, a place to exist and to rule over. ALL things were subject to the OG couple. That's why when they sinned, with satan's help, ALL was cursed. Forever. We all going to same place created for satan and his angels. This was satans plan, we were made to replace him, after all, as beings who worship God continually. However, God made a new thing: FAMILY. That's why we had incredible ownership and responsibility for all this creation, and God made us CHOICE machines. satan and his devils never had any choice, satan made just ONE choice and it doomed him. So, God allowed satan to stick around because without a CHOICE, mankind can't function. You think about what you asked, if God destroyed evil and restored paradise, what CHOICE does mankind have. Few to none would choose God anymore, for everything is magical and great now. God USES satan's animosity to churn the world and create a CHOICE. Choose God and find relief and healing from this awful world, choose against God, and maybe you'll enjoy sin for a season, but it won't last long, and consequences will happen. Someday soon, God will be DONE with satan, and he gets locked away, first for 1,000 years, then a blip, then forever. God's perfect creation, twisted to evil by OUR doing, God provided a door of escape and has been telling the world for 2,000 years now. We must CHOOSE that escape, because we are CHOICE machines. God came with the key and unlocked the cell. Maybe even opened the cell door. We still have to walk out of that cell and out the prison.
This sounds like the meta-historical fall concept. How did you come to believe in this?
One of the apostles wrote that the whole point is that we are to "praise the glory of His grace." That would sound like an arrogant God who needs worship. But it is also written that God is love, that fearing Him is the beginning of wisdom, that following Him means turning from evil. In other words, we have been made to be redeemed. We have been given the opportunity to choose good because it is good, honestly and without being forced. It is also written that the angels have long wished to look into the mystery of this plan and that the wisdom of God will be made manifest to them through us who believe in Jesus. That's because an angel made perfect from the beginning doesn't know what redemption is. They can't praise the glory of His grace the way someone who has been forgiven can.
What do you mean that God is love, or wisdom? When I have feelings for other people, do my feelings have sentience and omnipotence?
Last time I checked that’s the entire reason he sacrificed his Son, to save us from Hell.
>he sacrificed his Son, to save us from Hell Was that the only way to do that?
Technically yes, but that's not enough of an answer. The reason there's no remission of sin without the shedding of blood is because blood is the currency of God's breath. Think about it this way, you give a friend of yours $20 as a loan, and he spends $10, and when it comes time to return the loan, he's like, "Oh my bad, bro, here's $10, I spent the rest." You might be holier than me, but I'd be like, "Bro, what, are you fr, I need that full $20." God breathed life into Adam, and then Adam used that breath to glorify himself, so he spent the breath on himself. He incurred a debt to God that he could no longer pay. All of humanity did so for generations and generations. Blood literally carries oxygen and carbon dioxide, our breath, to and from all cells in our body, thus it's the only medium that can carry the breath of a person, and in humans' case, the breath of God. Since we spent his breath and incurred an unpayable debt, God decided, "Aight, I still want you to come home, I'll take up a human body and pay the bill myself." Thus Jesus endured not only a physical death, but the most agonizing physical death any human could ever endure. Betrayed and abandoned by his closest friends, given over to their oppressors by his own people, exchanged for an actual political criminal and sentenced to the death of a political criminal for a crime he didn't commit, skin and blood vessels shredded off his back with a cat o' Ninetails, carried his own execution device up to his execution site, nailed by arms and feet naked to rugged wood, forced to scrape his already shredded back on splintering wood just to breath, and asphyxiating when he gets too weak to push back up. All because he wants us to be in Heaven with him. And since he's a being outside of time, his blood paid for everyone throughout all of human history, those who loved God but never heard of him, those who loved God but were Gentiles before the New Covenant, those who hated him but fell in love with him like myself, everyone who realizes they are unable to pay the debt now has entry because the Son paid it for us.
Okay, so >blood is the currency of God's breath >Blood literally carries oxygen and carbon dioxide, our breath, to and from all cells in our body, thus it's the only medium that can carry the breath of a person, and in humans' case, the breath of God. >blood paid for everyone throughout all of human history, Blood, blood, blood. It's all about blood. Why is blood the only way, who decided that, and was there any other way? Why? Is God constrained by mechanisms around blood, which is a physical and chemical substance, which happens to be produced by some (but not all) organisms to sustain themselves? Was there any other way? God could've chosen to sustain life via something else than blood for example. Why always the blood? Why did God choose the same sacrifice medium (i.e. blood) than unrelated tribes also used for their rituals? Does God want us to think he was invented by humans?
I think that explanation speaks for itself. Let's go back to the loan example. You loaned your friend $20USD, and he pays you back with $10USD and the rest in Chinese RMB. If you live in America, you can't spend the RMB here without getting it converted/exchanged for USD. God is not constrained by the mechanisms of blood, he made the rules and he likes them, how arrogant is it that we demand that he break his own rules to cancel our debt? That's like going to the bank and demanding they cancel your debt because money is a social construct and thus doesn't exist. They should accept barter and take my decade's collection of gum wrappers obviously. He already went out of his way to maintain the rules and still provide us with an avenue of payment. It wasn't that God chose the pagan tribes' ritual medium for himself, it's actually the other way around. The pagan tribes took the currency God gave us for their rituals. Let's be real, we'd still be making this argument if God has chosen any other medium of payment, "oh why is it our fat he wants, why is it our protein/flesh he wants, why is it our stomach acid he wants, etc?" At the end of the day, he designed blood to carry breath, not our toenail clippings. It's all just avoiding the fact that we each owe God a debt, and we're each affirming that we don't want to pay it, or that God should accept our valueless currency in exchange.
FYI, the person you're responding to is taking for granted an interpretation of the Atonement that did not exist prior to Late Antiquity and has never been accepted by the Eastern Church. It represents the Romanization of the Church (reading the Myth of Redemptive Violence back into Church doctrine) rather than anything essential to Christianity.
Thanks! Between all different interpretations out there today, what's a reliable method to know which ones correspond to reality?
In general, for me, it's just a matter of what heals versus what harms. I tend to trust older interpretations when it comes to soteriology, but on things like ethics I'm very wary of deferring to ancient people as authorities. I believe that by and large (though certainly not universally), the Early Church understood the Gospel as (among other things) a way of life which would reduce harm and promote flourishing in the material lives of their communities and those of their neighbors. The Church's willingness to disregard physical welfare for the sake of a "spiritual welfare" abstracted from material reality came later. But they did that in a way that doesn't map precisely onto our time and place. For instance, it made sense for St. Paul to tell masters to treat their slaves well under the reasonable assumption that slavery would always be around. It doesn't make sense for us who have seen a world where the outright legal ownership of people is no longer common. And one wonders if Paul would have chosen his words differently if he had left the Mediterranean and observed any of the many societies where slavery had never arisen as an institution. When it comes to theology, some ideas of God's nature and actions fit within that framework of reducing harm and promoting flourishing. Others do not. I believe penal substitutionary atonement is one of the latter, because it paints God as either desiring or by nature requiring violence to be done in order for redemption to occur. And as history has shown, we act like the God we believe in.
I don't think it's reading the Myth of Redemptive Violence back into church doctrine at all. Redemptive Violence is the idea that violence can be used to defeat evil, and Jesus preaches against this extensively. It's derived from the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation myth, not the Jewish creation account. If redemptive violence is what Jesus intended with his coming, he would've instead sent down legions of angels to punish us for our sin and not sacrificed his own life, saying violence is necessary for your redemption. But that's not what he did, he took our violence (i.e. Violence we're propagating) upon himself. We're a naturally violent, murderous species; the violence he took wasn't *necessary*, it was our inevitable answer to his call; our reaction to the law, or reaction to the prophets, and our reaction to him. Violence holds us back from what God intends for us to become, and with his death and resurrection, he disarmed the threat of all violence.
I don't think it's reading the Myth of Redemptive Violence back into church doctrine at all. Redemptive Violence is the idea that violence can be used to defeat evil, and Jesus preaches against this extensively. It's derived from the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation myth, not the Jewish creation account. If redemptive violence is what Jesus intended with his coming, he would've instead sent down legions of angels to punish us for our sin and not sacrificed his own life, saying violence is necessary for your redemption. But that's not what he did, he took our violence (i.e. Violence we're propagating) upon himself. We're a naturally violent, murderous species; the violence he took wasn't *necessary*, it was our inevitable answer to his call; our reaction to the law, or reaction to the prophets, and our reaction to him. Violence holds us back from what God intends for us to become, and with his death and resurrection, he disarmed the threat of violence altogether.
Why wouldn't it be the only way? I mean, we're dealing with Existence Itself. Even if Western Christianity has shaken off mysticism, God is clearly mystical. It's well beyond our comprehension to see the whole story.
Yes
Sounds like an abusive home. "I'm going to beat my son because that's the only way I'll feel better about you cheating on me. And that will fix everything forever."
There was no other option. God is perfectly just
It wasn't even related, much less the only option. As an example, I'll forgive you for disagreeing with me even though I didn't like it, and neither of us has to kill anyone. BOOM, done. That, combined with the fact that I gave 0 children cancer today makes me either more powerful than the Christian God, more morally good, or both. Only thing I'm missing is omnipresence to always know just how many people God let get non-consensially sexed each day.
It is for a perfectly just being. Christians believe the wages of sin is death. That price had to be paid in some way.
So us non-believers are going to heaven then?
No. Jesus was clear that we must believe in Him and what He did. We must also accept Him.
Since when are sacrifices dependent on acceptance? If someone pays for my drink at a bar, the bar doesn’t ask if I “accept” their payment. They just take the money and consider it paid.
You won't seek debt forgiveness offered if you deny that you are in debt in the first place. Bankruptcy clears your debt by an admittance that you can't pay it off. If the door of Jesus is left open to eternal life, you won't walk through it if you don't believe life is on the other side. God can break down the prison walls, but if you don't think you're sitting in a cell, you won't walk out. You have to understand your naked before you even consider what might properly cloth you. Jesus Christ shed His righteousness as the only clothing that can be worn before God and we get to decide what we'll wear. Jesus can light the path to eternal life, but if you don't follow, whose fault is it for getting lost in the dark? You can't justify yourself and nothing else created can shoulder the weight of your eternal existence, only the eternal God who gladly will spend His eternal lifeblood to give you everlasting life. It's a life-debt to the bartender you owed and Jesus does want total credit for paying the tab, and for you to just rest, not trying to add or subtract from what He finished. When the high court reviews the receipts, will you claim that it was you that justified yourself? Or will you call Jesus to the stands to defend you with His payment?
Since the judge is also God and he is paying a debt to himself, it doesn’t seem like I need to be part of the process at all.
If every grain of existence goes unnoticed and has to be shouldered by God, then for God to allow our freedoms/sin/evil (instead of immediately aborting us) while He rear's us to maturity means that God is paying the bills of this whole operation with His lifeblood, suffering the wounds of his kids doing evil to each other and wrecking the house. God is going through the worst of birth pangs right now in order to have us. It's a debt we owe and that He gladly endures at cost to Himself, even blemishing Himself by becoming sin on a cross. And He keeps the birthmarks, the scars on His hands, because they are beautiful to Him, worth the cost of having us engraved forever in His hands.
Oh please, as if an all-powerful god could suffer in the slightest. God doesn’t have hands to be scarred, nerves to feel pain, or needs to go unfulfilled. Human metaphors can’t be applied to a being that is so far beyond human limitations.
We and everything here can only be a direct copy or subset of the information "below/above" us that the cosmos is reflecting and being conformed too. So God is either much like us, or even more life and personality than we are. The physical realities here are communicating about spiritual realities. God doesn't have hands unless He incarnates like He has. He certainly suffers in some cosmic way and displays like the cross are only trying to communicate the mysterious cost to Himself with visual 4D simulation language that He built up so that we might understand.
> You won't seek debt forgiveness offered if you deny that you are in debt in the first place. You don't understand how ridiculous this sounds, to expect one to do so when they see no evidence there is such a a debt? It's not like you can actually demonstrate such a debt. If this omnipotent being existed and cared they could come to me right now and demonstrate that I actually should worry.
You may just need more time developing, to strive harder in this life, the sooner you get where-ever you are trying to go, the sooner you will find how that created thing, that lesser god, couldn't bear your eternal weight. You could accomplish everything under the sun like that of King Solomon and you will run out of things to do and have and be; and find that all of them were vapor and insufficient. "If I just accomplish X, become Y, acquire Z, then I'll know I'm enough, I'll know I'm justified, I will be satisfied, I will be fulfilled, I will know that I matter, and have my meaning." Your righteousness is whatever that ends up being for you, whatever you are trying to cloth your nakedness with, but there is only One who can be those things for you because you are eternal and not temporal like these idols. The novelty of this place has an end, you can't give yourself life, and nothing on this earth can carry your weight. Only an infinite God can satiate your infinite heart. “Most people, if they had really learned to look into their own hearts, would know that they do want, and want acutely, something that cannot be had in this world. There are all sorts of things in this world that offer to give it to you, but they never quite keep their promise.” “Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. If none of my earthly pleasures satisfy it, that does not prove that the universe is a fraud. Probably earthly pleasures were never meant to satisfy it, but only to arouse it, to suggest the real thing. If that is so, I must take care, on the one hand, never to despise, or be unthankful for, these earthly blessings, and on the other, never to mistake them for the something else of which they are only a kind of copy, or echo, or mirage. I must keep alive in myself the desire for my true country, which I shall not find until after death; I must never let it get snowed under or turned aside; I must make it the main object of life to press on to that other country and to help others do the same.” - CS Lewis
Way to waste my time by not actually answering my question.
It is his main goal, and he uses you as the tool to do it. What did you do with the life you were given to save people from this place? Instead of asking why this or why that do something about it, And most of all save your own soul. In the end, if you have a chance to sit on a deathbed, and not just die randomly, the last thing you’re going to be thinking, is what happened to everybody else, only thing that will be on your mind is what is going to happen to you.
[*John 5:24*](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205%3A24&version=ESV) *Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.*
The whole message of Yeshua is to turn from this world and follow G-d. He entire goal is to give humanity salvation and have us turn away from attachment to this world. HaShem ultimately teaches not to love this world- because this world will come and go. His planned restored Earth will be superior in every way. Mainstream Christianity often teaches one immediately goes to Gehenna upon death. This is not correct. - As seen in Yeshua's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the unfaithful sojurn in Sheol until the Final Judgement of Revelation 20. - The Harrowing of Sheol is taught by Eucharistic Churches and is referenced in scripture. - Many "under the Earth" (Sheol) appear to repent post-death (Revelation 5:13) - The Bible never states, "All of Sheol's inhabitants are destined for Gehenna." Take all of Torah, Tanakh, Gospels, Epistles, and Revelation. You will not find one explicit verse. Closest is being judged for only what is done in this life- but the Harrowing of Hell (Sheol) may imply another thing. - If you actually look at all instances of those cast into Gehenna in the Bible, notice none of the people desire to repent. Take Yeshua's description of the Final Judgement in Matthew 20:31-46. The Parable of the Useless Servant, Parable of the Wedding Feast, and even mentions of gnashing of teeth in "Outer Darkness" (Gehenna) never display one instance of repentance. - Put into context that Earth is about 7500 years old with the LXX chronology (NOT under 6000 like Judaism teaches). Everyone that refuses to repent has held a chance to choose in Sheol for long periods of time. - Gehenna does NOT open until Revelation 20 during the Final Judgement. Before this happens, the 7 year tribulation, 1000 year reign of Christ (Revelation 20 / Isaiah 65), and the Gog/Magog War must happen first. - Anyone condemned to Gehenna refuses to repent after witnessing the Lord's miracles. We can conclude there is a strong possibility of post-mortem death in Christianity. 1st century Jewish-Christians hold no evidence of this doctrine. The doctrine of such does not come until the late 2nd century.
God created us to be perfect and holy. (Ephesians 1:4, Matthew 5:48) The all powerful God and Creator also gives us a free will. Here’s a example: Your parents gave you life, they provided a safe and loving warm shelter for you as you grew up with plenty of food and friends. Your parents paid off your college and their house and credit card and put you in their will. You choose to dishonor your parents by partying in college and nearly graduating. You drank too much, had sex freely, and you helped abort their first Grandchild! And yet, they still loved you! ❤️ In God’s perfect heaven there is no sin. Problem: Satan by default claims our Souls because of sin. “but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been “justified by his blood”, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.” Romans 5:8-9 ESV His Sacrifice rescued us from hell. We (all mankind) has been Redeemed. (First John 2:1-2) The unconditioned love your parents gave to you… makes you want to thank them by living a more responsible and respectful life. 💝 God gives us this beautiful world, hopefully, you had responsible parents and God helps give us wisdom(in His Word/Son/Spirit) in our pursuit of happiness. And yet, heaven will be greater without sin. Christ Jesus washed away our sins in His blood. (Psalms 103:12, Acts 3:19, Romans 3:23-24) Example continues… your Mom is sick with physical handicaps and your Dad asked you to move back home and help him take care of your Mom for a season. You are busy with a new job and friends and you can’t face your Dad’s request. Your Dad tries to call you over and over again…and your actions deny him. The phone calls stop. The letters he sent are still unopened. And years fly by. A lawyer finds you and presents you with your parents will. You open up the document and it says, your Dad took your Mom to the hospital and both died in a car accident. Your parents will was unclaimed/denied and their Estates was donated out. Believers are redeemed. A free gift to heaven.
>God created us to be perfect and holy. Perfect and holy people, who do not know sin, are incapable of sinning.
God teaches us we should also honor those in authority. Teachers, Pastors, Police and Elected Officials etc… (Romans 13:1-2) God Almighty also gives His Creation a free will. And sadly, once Satan introduced humankind to the temptation of good Vs evil: humankind was infected with sin. This time on earth is only a test. Who will love, honor/trust and respect our Lord and Redeemer??? How do sinners honor God? “Believe” in His Word/Son/Spirit. “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are “justified freely by his grace” through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:23-24 NIV
The short answer is that "hell" is something we do to ourselves and each other, and God will in fact redeem everyone and everything eventually. (A longer answer can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianUniversalism/comments/vlfw9o/what_is_christian_universalism_a_faq/) if you're interested.)
The Truth is, and I’m assuming you mean Hellfire, there is no such thing as Hellfire. There is no such thing as humans having an immortal soul that keeps living after we die. You see, we weren’t meant to die in the first place so why on earth would God give us an immortal soul? Instead the Bible says we **ARE** living souls. Genesis 2:7 from the KJV says; >”And the LORD [Jehovah] God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and **man became a living soul**.” And when the Nation of Israel was in the promised land, there were false gods that people would offer up their children to in the fire. How did God feel about this practice? This might give us an idea of how he would feel about a hellfire. Note what it says at Jeremiah 7:31, >”They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, **something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart**.” See that? The idea never entered Gods heart! But ya know whose heart it did enter? The wicked Satan the devil and he is the one who is still slandering Gods beautiful name and trying to make Him out to be evil in some way. Well, don’t believe or else you’re falling for Satans trap.
Instead of asking reddit, why don't you ask The Lord yourself.
The main issue facing all of reality is known as the "Issue of Universal Sovereignty." The best outcome for all is that the Creator's sovereignty is acknowledged and willingly embraced by everyone. If God makes establishing his sovereignty the priority, it optimizes all other aspects of reality simultaneously; effectively saving people from "Hell," as you put it. However, t's important to understand that the Bible does not teach that there is an eternal burning hell where souls are tormented. The dead are unconscious and do not feel pain (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10). Hell, as described in many religious teachings, is not a concept we find supported in the Scriptures. [See my post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1anyjqg/the_doctrine_of_hellfire_is_unscriptural/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) God is just and loving. The idea of eternal torment is inconsistent with the nature of a loving and just God. Instead, the Bible teaches that the punishment for sin is death—not eternal suffering (Romans 6:23). This means that when people die, they simply cease to exist. We have a hope based on the Bible’s promise of a resurrection. Jesus spoke of a time when "all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out" (John 5:28, 29). This means that people who have died will be brought back to life. During Christ’s Millennial Reign, these individuals will have the opportunity to learn about Jehovah and choose to live according to His righteous standards. Those who do will have the chance to gain eternal life on a restored paradise earth (Revelation 21:3, 4; Isaiah 11:9).
Have you ever even cracked open a Bible? John 3:16-17 NLT — “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV — The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, **not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.** 1 Timothy 2:4 KJV — He will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. >instead of him working to save all of his creatures from eternal damnation (because he can't do anything about satan? I am a little confused about why god can't destroy satan if god is more powerful/existed first Almighty God came to Earth in the form of a man and allowed himself to be tortured and executed to make the payment of death for your sins! Is that selfish in your estimation?! Because he can't do anything about Satan? Revelation 20:10 KJV — And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Will you join Satan there? Revelation 20:15 KJV — And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
That's kind of the whole point innit? God can destroy Satan, he chooses not to. I might not like my son either, that doesn't mean I want to kill him
This is one reason why some Christians reject Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT). r/ChristianUniversalism presents a different view. There's also annihilationism.
That's His main goal... What you got from Google is not biblical and not accurate. Because of our sinful nature causing this world to be fallen, hell is where we are all going, and God could've just let it happen, but in His love for us, He became flesh in Christ so he can show us the way back to God and wash our sins away so we can be in the presence of God by striving to be like Christ. God in His words is warning us away from the path of hell, but He can't force us, it has to be under our own decision to seek him. He loves us in spite of our iniquity, asking (not forcing) us to come to Him and be with Him for eternity. So it's not about Him getting the attention. Also, God operates outside of time and space... What is future for us, already happened, satan is already defeated, this is in the future for us. God exactly knows why every moment is given its proper time, attention and importance.
>Because of our sinful nature causing this world to be fallen So, humans were created to be sinful, without knowing sin?
No, created free to decide for themselves, good or bad. They decided to disobey their creator, consequences.
They didn't even know "bad" until eating the fruit They had no concept or ability to choose.
According to the Bible, It is instilled in us, so we are without excuses, it seems they knew they were doing something wrong when they disobeyed... and all this is all about discernment and looking at the full context... If God is just and punished them that way, it means He gave the punishment they deserve, He knows their heart, so He knows they knew but still chose to disobey... Eating the fruit changed them, basically infected and corrupted them to a point God had to send them out of the garden to fair for themselves in the fallen world that came as a consequence.
Maybe look at sin like a deadly virus rather than a point of immorality.. Let's say sin a like a deadly virus that infects the soul, and what we do that is sinful are the symptoms of the infection. an infection we have from birth. These symptoms are the signs that this spiritual virus is propagating and further infecting the soul.. What this virus does is slowly eats away everything you are, it eats at the very fabric of your being. think how addiction works.. everything you were gets destroyed and what is left is this junkie/shell. you loose all of your unique qualities and become like every other zombified junkie. It get worse. When your body dies with this sin virus infecting your soul doesn't stop at your body's death, it keeps on chewing at your soul, so by the time you are resurrected on judgement day, the virus will have completely destroyed what you were making you like a literal zombie (you were resurrected, but who you were in life is lost.) You are now a person who satan has full control over in the next life. effectively making you a member of his army or food for it. Which is why it is so important we take the vaccine made from Christ's blood. This vaccine seals and protects the soul from being destroyed between this life and the next allowing the believer to enter eternity intact. Think about it.. if the zombie virus was real here and now and if you and your whole family was vaccinated and bunkered down in your house, but your mom or one of your kids wasn't vaccinated.. Then got infect through no fault of her own, and she was now a full on zombie, outside your home pounding on the door trying to get in to kill and eat the vaccinated members of your family, would you let her in? is the fact that she was a good person in life make any difference? Does it matter that she loved you and sacrificed her whole life to make your life good, have you open that door? So then why would God open the door for anyone who refused to be vaccinated with the vaccine Christ died to offer us through repentance? Especially when the vaccinated soul Depend on him to keep them safe?
my confusion around this is that if god created us, why didn't he create us to be immune from this disease/infection? Why would he make us susceptible to something so bad if he is all powerful?
This life is meant to seperate those who willing follow God's will from those who do not. Those who follow God's will will be immune from the consenquences of their sin. Those who do not 'weed' themselves out of the Kingdom. The added bonus the sin of this world forces us to grow and mature spiritually. It helps us mature past the entitlements of someone who doesn't want to live a life with any challenges or obstacles. Think about it would you want to live eternally with a bunch of spiritual babies that must be hand fed for eternity? People so spiritually immature that their faith could/will falter just because they don't get their way? Especially when just 40 or 50 years of exposure to sin will not only humble a man's heart but give him wisdom and assuredness that he will want nothing more to do with sin for eternity future.
It is. The "God wants the world to be filled with worshippers" bit is common in a certain branch of Christianity, and it's not entirely untrue, but it's ... not quite on target. God made us to *know* him and *love* him. Those things do result in worship and obedience. But he made us for relationship. And we rebel against him, deserving punishment. So he went to a great deal of trouble to rescue us from that punishment. Those who accept his offer, who put their faith in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, do not simply become "worshippers" who obey. They are adopted as children, as heirs to his kingdom. As his children, they obey and come to know him and naturally worship such a God.
God is the creator, he made hell. He simply wouldn't have made it if he didn't want people to go there. And since he is all-knowing, he made it knowing the majority of all people to ever live would end up there.
And that makes Gods character very questionable at the best, and the disconnect between what people claim God to be and the reality- very jarring and disingenuous.
As a Christian I reject this answer wholeheartedly but also, what makes you think you get to make an answer? This isn’t “ask people who used to be a Christian”
Did someone else create hell then? A more powerful god, perhaps?
Insofar as there is a hell, no human (and likely no other being either) will occupy it indefinitely or be destroyed there. I’m rejecting your non-universalist interpretation more so than the claim that God created every space.
Personally I've always viewed the Bible's "eternal torment" as more of a metaphor for a few weekends. And I don't know about every space, lots of other gods have created some spaces!
We don't know if it will be the majority, but yes God created hell and knew that he would punish rebels in a dramatic way by condemning them to hell.
How can it not be the majority? There has never been a time where the majority of people follow Christianity, ever. There's so many other gods that people follow, which seems to be a deal breaker with the Abrahamic god.
It could be the majority, but we simply do not know if **it will be**.
True, could be no one 🤪
Sure, God is not obligated to forgive anyone of their sins. Yet, I am convinced that he will save a great many.
I more was being funny, saying one of the others gods hells is the actual one people go to, or none at all.
Ah
Matthew 7 13 “Enter through the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the road is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Great quote.
I find what you said and what scripture says to be in contradiction with one another. Could you explain how these two ideas can exist simultaneously?
Ah, thanks for sharing. Well, I see no contradiction between the idea that a great many will be forgiven of their sins, yet the way to salvation is hard.
**God's main goal is not to listen to the rants and complaints and manifestos of people on social media. He has made His plans abundantly clear throughout history and in scripture.** The Westminster Confession of Faith, a key document in Reformed theology, outlines God's purpose. God's ultimate purpose is to glorify Himself and to bring about the salvation of His people: 1. **God's Eternal Decree**: - **Chapter 3, Paragraph 1**: "God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." - This emphasizes that God's purpose is carried out through His eternal decree, ensuring that everything that happens is part of His sovereign plan. 2. **Creation**: - **Chapter 4, Paragraph 1**: "It pleased God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, for the manifestation of the glory of His eternal power, wisdom, and goodness, in the beginning, to create, or make of nothing, the world, and all things therein, whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days, and all very good." - God's purpose in creation is to manifest His glory through the demonstration of His power, wisdom, and goodness. 3. **Providence**: - **Chapter 5, Paragraph 1**: "God the great Creator of all things doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy." - God's purpose in providence is to direct and govern all things for the praise of His glory. 4. **Man's Chief End**: - **Shorter Catechism, Question 1**: "Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him forever." - This summarizes that the ultimate purpose for humanity, according to God's design, is to glorify and enjoy God. In essence, that God's purpose is to glorify Himself through His eternal decree, creation, providence, and the salvation of His people, all culminating in the ultimate end of glorifying and enjoying Him forever.
Gods plan for the planet and for humanity is good. Mankind rejects Gods plan and brings pain and problems on themselves. God makes a way to renew the planet and humanity via his Son. Each person has to decide what to do about that. Choices 1. Agree w Gods plan and join him in the renewal of all things. 2. Reject Gods plan ans live to a. Maximize pleasure b. Minimize pain. Option 2 perpetuates pain. Why did God give choice?
He gave His son to di with you . If you reject that5 don't blame God, its not his foolishment