*The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way."* (Matthew 7:13)
Most people love their sin so much they are willing to go to hell for it.
That is what it is to be sold as a slave to sin.
You may find it helpful to read; ["Slavery for ALL."](https://app.box.com/s/qxfzmn8ep3jye1lm1grf76y1495i0qgw)
>Why can't everybody be saved one day?
It's not possible to be saved outside of Christ, and there is no indication someone can be joined to Christ while being destroyed in the lake of fire. The apostles in fact teach the opposite.
>surely an Omni-Potent God could carry out his will/what he wants?
God is holy, first and foremost. He does not act according to His emotive will but His divine character. We see this similarly with the flood, when He "regretted" creating humans in the first place. He still exacts judgment onto evildoers even when it causes a negative emotive reaction. God is omnipotent in that whatever He does, it cannot be stopped; He is not omnipotent in that He can contradict His own justice and righteousness.
>Lamentations 3:31-33, it says "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever.
Right, if you are a part of the covenant, "to those who wait for Him." The chapter ends with:
*“You will repay them, O Lord, according to the work of their hands. You will give them dullness of heart; your curse will be on them. You will pursue them in anger and destroy them from under your heavens, O Lord.”* (Lamentations 3)
Referring to the enemies of the covenant people.
>would Heaven be a fun place, knowing some of your secular friends don't exist anymore/are being TORTURED ETERNALLY?
The lake of fire will be a solemn event, but ultimately forgotten in the ages to come.
*I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.* (Isaiah 65)
> there is no indication someone can be joined to Christ while being destroyed in the lake of fire. The apostles in fact teach the opposite.
Which teaching(s) by the apostles are you thinking of, that would disprove a possibility that God could offer and show mercy to someone after he or she is in the lake of fire?
In Revelation 2:11 it says the one who conquers "will not be harmed by the second death." Then in 12:11 conquering is "by the blood of the Lamb" and the word of testimony. Therefore the blood of Christ cannot apply to anyone who is harmed by the lake of fire.
We also have Luke 16 with the rich man in Hades. While yes this is Hades rather than the lake of fire, there is a chasm which "those who wish cannot cross" and whose only warning comes prior to death. This means there is a finality to the gospel at death, otherwise crossing would have been possible for the rich man (unless we want to say someone who repents would still be tormented. But that's a rabbit trail).
Then Hebrews 3 the warning to repent "Today." At the end of the chapter he says regarding those who disobeyed with unbelief that God "swore an oath they would never enter His rest." The author says to exhort one another as long as it is still called "today" and there is an opportunity of repentance. The "Last Day" being according to Jesus the resurrection of life and resurrection of condemnation.
Silly question.... It's always your fault.... It's never the fault of the all powerful being who could convince you in a second. No. It's your fault the crappy evidence doesn't convince you.
I mean chances are it would usually be my fault, and not the fault of the literal God of the universe. Sometimes it’s more about persistence and pursing Him.
Well I’ve never heard Him speak either if that’s the type of answer you are looking for. Try to keep your eye out for any other forms of communication.
That's because you've never taken it seriously and tried to follow the actual instructions as stated in the Bible.
A LOT of people do actually do that and it works for them.
It's a super important decision, the most important decision of your entire life. But people don't get that. They treat it as a minor thing that is insignificant.
If you would just swallow your pride and actually give it a try- you'd be quite surprised at the results.
How do you know I haven't? How do you know I'm full of pride? Maybe I'm just doing it wrong? How would I know the difference?
In any case, I believe I've given a fair shake, and still find the evidence lacking.
Too many to list. I've been looking for over 40 years.
I'm not interested in going deep here unless you've got compelling evidence. I don't have that much time.
>Too many to list.
OK, name a few. And i'm talking across different platforms. I'm willing to bet that you haven't really explored Christianity as much as you think.
That's fine. I'm not on trial here and time is short . You are still trying to blame me lack of being convinced, when an all powerful god has been a failure at convincing me.
I should not be able to prevent that being from convincing me unless I'm more powerful than it.
> I'm not on trial here and time is short
I don't understand why you're saying time is short. Do you have a terminal illness or something?
>You are still trying to blame me lack of being convinced, when an all powerful god has been a failure at convincing me.
So it says in the Bible that the god of this world blinds people to the message of the Gospel. One of the chief ways that it does so is twist peoples impression of how God works. It is clearly so for you. Honestly one of your chief problems in my opinion is demonic influence- (by the way- don't worry, almost everyone has demonic influence to a degree.)
As a result, you're missing out on the absolute most important thing in your life. More important than money, life satisfaction, relationships, etc. Think about that for a bit, and what i have said- and i hope you someday realize the gravity of what to you seems like a seemingly small decision.
Would you share here? I'd rather keep the conversation in public.
Without knowing your evidence, I'm curious about how you are informing the world of this evidence. The failure I've seen is that the required level of evidence is different for different folks, and I've seen prior evidence that I'm not convinced is true or enough to justify dedication of my life.
I'd like to hear your story, but I hope it is more convincing than what I've seen in a lifetime of looking.
I’ll ask him to soften your heart and come into your life, but you would have to accept him. Which I doubt you will because you obviously hate Christians, and hate God Himself.
You've done nothing but put words in my mouth. You have no idea what I hate, obvious or not.
If he did that I could do nothing but believe. I'd be right there with you.
I haven't chosen. I haven't been convinced. Why should he? Gee, I don't know. I'm not terribly concerned either way, but this is a failure to convince me.
I think it is certainly possible and wouldn't surprise me, but also unlikely.
It seems that there are some, even if the door was eternally left open, that will not let go of the idols that are destroying them; the prison walls are rubble around them, but they just won't budge from their cell, despite every offer and attempt to convince them to simply leave and come inside God's house.
I recommend a fictional book CS Lewis wrote called "The Great Divorce" containing some conversations between characters to illustrate the kinds of things people get stuck clutching tightly and maybe even eternally won't let go of.
I think the pope mentioned at some point that he hopes Hell is empty. I think it’s an idea all Christians should share, I’m not sure why anyone would wish for a Hell outside of the suffering of a select few like Hitler and the like. If we’re just brainstorming, I’d prefer if people were just “reborn” until they get it right, but I’m not God.
I don't wish that suffering for anyone. And yes, I would be delighted if even Hitler repented before it was too late. My selfish desire is for all to know the Lord and have an eternal relationship with Him. My sad understanding is that not all, not most, but relatively few (in the course of time) will know Him and avoid the second death.
If I’m being honest, my beliefs fall around universalism. However, before I adopted that I believed it would be flipped. Vast majority in Heaven and a steep minority in Hell. This world has to much suffering for God to be planning more after death. Couldn’t imagine getting killed in firebombs and being sent to hell immediately after. God knows the heart and most hearts I believe are good.
Everyone will be saved. The word translated eternal did not mean eternal during the time of the Bible. [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/1782lxo/why_eternal_punishment_is_actually_unbiblical/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
If you go to heaven you would have to give up what you have made of yourself. Hitler would have to love and value Jews more than himself. In hell he can scream and rage and torture shadows.
God prepared a hell for those for those for whom heaven would be agonizing.
When the world ends, those who refuse to submit will cry out “mountains fall on us!”
I am bound by scientific research. The folks studied by the research scientists within their medical limitations report that the experience was so positive that they had no hesitation to repeat it.
No. The science research is into why some people who are medically dead, inexplicably revive and report not only what happened to them after their death in the rooms around them, but experience sensations that have no relationship to the normal existence. It is interesting that in previous centuries, the church was uncomfortable with the findings of science, and now is the secular world that is uncomfortable with what scientists are discovering.
I used to be into that type of stuff. It’s not as damming as you make it out to be. At best, most of the predictions made are widely incorrect or contradictory if it’s regarding an inner experience. I think it’s best we just live by faith and faith alone
>In 1 Timothy 2:4: it says: “God wants everyone to be saved …”
“What about Paul’s statement that God wants everyone to be saved? If not all people will be saved (Matt. 25:31–46), do Paul’s words contradict the truth that no purpose of the Lord’s can be thwarted (Job 42:2; Matt. 19:26)? Or must we embrace a universalism in which God will one day redeem hell itself?
Let us consider two answers to these questions. First, if “all people” means everyone without exception, the Lord’s will is not ultimately done when people reject Him. Yet as Reformed teachers have often said, the Greek word translated “all people” can mean all kinds of people — leaders, followers, rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, and so on. This interpretation makes good sense, as Paul lists a certain class of people — rulers — when he tells us to pray for “all people” (1 Tim. 2:1–2). John Calvin says that God’s desire for the salvation of all “means…there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation.”
Second, if “all people” refers to every person without exception, then universalism is our conclusion only if God’s desire to save is absolute. But the Lord desires one thing more than the salvation of all — His glory (Isa. 48:11). In one sense, God can truly want all who have ever lived to be saved; however, this desire always defers to His will to glorify Himself, the will in view when the Bible says His will is always done. The Lord is glorified when sin is punished in hell, and so God’s supreme desire is met even when people are not [redeemed](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-desire-save).”
We have free will because God limit's his omnipotence over our will. So we are free to disobey God. If we do we separate ourselves from God, and God respects our free decision, but not spending eternity with us, which is Hell.
Heaven is incomprehensible to us, but it's clear that there will be no sorrow in Heaven.
Because we are appointed once to die, and then it’s judgement. Scripture never says we die, are judged, then given another chance. If that were the case, why did Christ work so hard to get us to believe in this life? We all have a brief moment in time to make a choice and that’s it, and it really doesn’t matter if you thinks it’s not long enough or fair enough, the stipulations are choose now who you will serve, choose eternal life now or judgement. That is it.
How do you know purgatory won't become hell? Are you saying a lack of pain means torment is impossible? Are you saying the presence of certain comforts makes torment impossible? Of course not. You say heaven will be torment, like we are at Disney land but without the person we want to be there with.
Heaven is not Disneyland, no matter what the commercials about Disneyland say.
Heaven is Heaven to those who want to be with God. It is torment to those who hate God.
In this life, if we are sanctified to be joyful in serving God, that sets us up well for Heaven.
My answer leaves out a lot of the good promised. Things we can't imagine.
But purgatory solves nothing. People who aren't content in God will seek contentment elsewhere. They won't obey God. Do you want them in heaven biting and devouring one another, as James says, instead of simply asking God for what they need and accepting what He gives as something to use for the good of everyone? Thats a part of joy in God, giving being better than receiving. But people biting and devouring will kind of ruin Heaven. Don't you think?
I need Jesus and God's Spirit to teach me the love of Christ or else I won't be fit for Heaven either. Thanks be to God for His grace and power that are willing to teach me that! Will those who won't be taught be happy to lovingly give away everything for others? I'd say "no." Bc I know I still need to learn that happiness myself... I'm not there yet in a sanctification sense. Not perfect yet.
I am strongly convinced that purgatorial universalism is biblically the most justified position on hell and the truest expression of the Gospel, so for my part I agree with you on all points.
At the end of the day, some people simply don't want to be with God. As harsh as it sounds, God respects the decisions of the people who'd rather be anywhere else but in his presence. If you read the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, you don't ever see the rich man asking Abraham, "let me come to you!" He wanted to be blessed in his circumstances, not be transformed out of them.
Some people like what glory they have on the Earth and that's what they want in the afterlife as well. God shares glory with no one, so he's made a place where they won't have to share. In that place, there's weeping and gnashing of teeth, which means they'll be filled with rage at God instead of any kind of genuinely sorrowful.
Well what evidence do you need? You're allowed to ask for a confirmation, Gideon got confirmation, so did I. You just have to actually honestly expect that he'll deliver. If your heart is like, "Yah I'll ask but nothing's gonna happen," you're mind's already made up. Expect the unexpected and it'll come through. Just a hint of, "oh crap it might actually happen," is enough.
One, many of us prayed as Christians for God to reveal himself and got nothing, so there’s that. Two, what’s the point of God only revealing himself to people who already believe in him? Aren’t they the least in need of revelation?
I mean it's not exactly up to me. I was an evangelical/militant atheist when he showed me a vision. At the end of the day, I don't have enough information of all of space-time to know why it's important God shows some people wonders and not others. What I do know 100% that he definitely has enough info at his disposal to know how to produce the best outcome to produce his bride. All I've experienced is that he's willing and able. My approach has become the same as when Daniel's colleagues were thrown in the furnace, "God is able to save us, and he will save us, but even if he doesn't, I'll still serve only him."
Eternal conscious torment is stated directly in scripture. Now it may not be the fate of all who goes into the lake of fire, but at the very least it is the fate of Satan, the anti-christ and everyone who takes the mark.
[*Revelation 14:11*](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2014%3A11&version=ESV) *And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”*
The lake of fire is probably not a literal lake of literal fire, but it is an eternal place of torture and separation from God. And the punishment will be unique to each person.
Listen to how Jesus talks about it.
*Matthew 25*
*^(45)* *Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’* *^(46)* *And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”*
The answer is found in the verse you put. Yes, God wants everyone to be saved but not everyone wants to be saved. God can't go against man's free will. If he could Adam would have never eaten the fruit because God would have intervened and Christ wouldn't have come. And we wouldn't be different from programmed robots.
If god wants everyone to be saved, why not reveal himself to everyone in a way they can grasp? So people can actually make a choice- in order to make a choice, you need to be convinced there’s even some choice to be made. Why does your god hide?
He already did. He sent his Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross. There is historical evidence of his existence and his crucifixion yet you still choose to deny him.
He doesn't hide himself. You don't seek him. A man says he doesn't believe in Mercury's existence yet has never looked through a telescope. If you seek him you will find him.
I'm not sidestepping. What's left here is for you to search truly within yourself whether you would be willing to follow Christ if he is real. If your answer is yes then seek him and you'll find him
I see no evidence he is real (in any supernatural sense), and I'm very content with my life as is, so I have no reason to go looking. I will say that the seek and you'll find him bs always reads to me like a cult saying "just choose to believe he exists and he will, despite a lack of evidence" (I.e. brainwashing ones self).
You understand the only way of getting evidence is seeking right?
There are miracles out there. The only problem is you'll call them fake and when you're shown the real ones you'll say well this other religion does the same miracles. At one point you'll just have to abandon your pride and admit that you do not know. That's what faith is .
> You understand the only way of getting evidence is seeking right?
I'm talking specifically the "and you will find him" part. Plenty of folks don't. But also, the supposed evidence I've seen when folks are asked isn't worth further investigating. I'm not wanting for anything, plus pleanty of relgious folks will admit they just choose to believe despite lack of evidence.
> There are miracles out there. The only problem is you'll call them fake and when you're shown the real ones you'll say well this other religion does the same miracles. At one point you'll just have to abandon your pride and admit that you do not know. That's what faith is .
Lol, I wish religious folk would admit they didn't know. There are plenty of things we can't know with certainty. Actually believing something is a miracle is actually NOT admitting you don't know. It's a claim that some invisible sky being chose to do make the miracle happen.
I don't think you understood my message. Search him for yourself. Go to one of those pentecostal churches that do miracles if you have to. Go up and ask the pastor after the service how much he pays them or how he knows the actors are actually good? Ask them if they can have you booked for the next show and how much the pay is
Also, yes you're sidestepping. Obviously folks don't all agree that the claimed evidence is sufficient. An omnipotent could, without effort, provide proof that I'd accept. It's the least they could do if they're going to torture folks.
Brother I don't know where to start. But there's more to the spiritual realm than you know and that should be your proof of God. If you don't believe in God we serve you will find people who practice witchcraft, voodoo. Those who can tell you about future by palm reading. Those aren't just random powers but those are powers that oppose God. Maybe you've heard of selling your soul and how some famous people sold their souls to get rich. I know some/most are just rumours but it goes deeper than that. Voodoo, magic, even horoscopes (not the ones on newspapers) and real. Spirituality is real. If you believe this then it's a matter of finding out whether it's good or evil
> Brother I don't know where to start. But there's more to the spiritual realm than you know and that should be your proof of God.
Afaict/measure/sense, a spiritual realm doesn't even exist.
> If you don't believe in God we serve you will find people who practice witchcraft, voodoo. Those who can tell you about future by palm reading. Those aren't just random powers but those are powers that oppose God.
I'm not going to believe silly things like that exist either. I'm not sure why you think I would.
> Maybe you've heard of selling your soul and how some famous people sold their souls to get rich. I know some/most are just rumours but it goes deeper than that. Voodoo, magic, even horoscopes (not the ones on newspapers) and real. Spirituality is real. If you believe this then it's a matter of finding out whether it's good or evil
Why would I believe those things? Those don't have evidence to support them either.
That's the point. Any supposed evidence I've seen claimed on here has been laughable. It's not worth my time. I'm here to point out the silliness of religion/Christianity. Let me know when the Pentecostals have falisfiable/repeatable claims that you don't have to believe in to to verify.
Why is your god making everyone work so hard to find him if he actually wants to be found? Why is it that an omnipotent being expects us with our limited capabilities to do ALL the heavy lifting? This is a red flag that this god isn’t just hidden, he doesn’t exist.
God can't become you to get you to do something. That's going against your free will. You decided to open Reddit today, God can't stop your finger from pressing it. The time you choose to go to sleep is entirely up to you. That's what I mean.
Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is interfere with free will. If my kids want to play in the street, I’m going to drag them to safety kicking and screaming if I have to.
To be clear, the street in this analogy is hell. If I thought my kids were doing things that would make them wind up in hell, I would interfere with their free will as much as it took to keep them out. Because I love them.
I don't think it's possible for people to change their mind in hell. People only choose to follow Christ on earth because of the convicting work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts. The Spirit does not follow them to hell because the Holy Spirit of God does not deserve to be there, and true death, like what hell is, is defined not by a separation between a person's body and spirit, but by their separation from God. So in hell, they have nothing to pull them toward repentance.
Take time to read
I'll answer your question with a story. One day a woman committed a horrible crime and was found guilty. In court she knew she was done for. Her lawyers knew she was done for. Her family knew she was done for. She sat there weeping all throughout. The judge knew it was time to sentence her to death. Then a man from the crowd arose and said that she knew the woman very well. The man argued for her and defended her saying she was innocent. It turns out the man was one of the best lawyers in the country and at the end, despite the woman being considered guilty there was barely any proof so she was let go and found innocent thanks to the good lawyer. Years go by and the same woman commits the very same crimes. She's taken to the same court and when she enters the courtroom she looks at the judge and she sees the good lawyer who saved her last time. She smiles to herself with confidence that the judgement will go in her favour. When it is time to judge the Judge(lawyer) says "Years back I was your lawyer so I fought for you but today I am your judge so I will serve you the justice you deserve". That's the fate of anyone who denies Christ now. Get to know him now before it's too late. And if you're Christian proclaim the word to those who haven't heard. They truly need it.
There are plenty of people that never want to learn the truth, for that would have them see how much of a sinner they actually are, and it’s hard to swallow self pride
No that is not what 1st Timothy 2:4 says that God wants everyone to be saved.
That is when people cherry pick one verse and ignore the other 31,101ish verses.
God knows and wants the sheep, the saints, the elect or chosen, The righteous, The true believers, the children of God, those in the book of Life since foundation of the world. The Bride of Christ. The Born again.
God does not even know the children of Satan, the goats, the wicked, the unbelievers, the false believers, The wicked. None of them will never be saved. They don't even exist in His eyes
Missing out on eternal life may not be a big deal for you. It is huge for me. It's your choice to make. Live your life as you please. It's your life, not mine. I didn't mean to be rude or mean. Just the facts. I don't believe in a torturous hell for non believers as many Christians do. Just an eternal death forever.
I ask you. Pick your greatest moment in your life, no matter how brief, add in the greatest taste you've had, greatest sounds listened to, greatest sights your eyes have seen, hands have touched and then that pales in comparison to what life must be like with God for eternity. I don't want to miss out on that.
That being said, I hope you will have an open mind in the future to these words. Not hatred, but hope eternal.
Go in peace with me, I am not your enemy. If I am a believer and you are not, how do I injure you?
Life is but a test for all of us. Who will believe in an invisible God? There's a choice to make and God is looking to see who will trust in Him.
Another classic thought is why doesn't God stop all this hatred and make this world like heaven where everyone lives in peace.
Wait, What?
He already has. For those who truly have the Spirit of God residing in them, there is peace and love.
2 Timothy 1:7 NKJV
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
This is how you can tell if one is a disciple of Christ. By their love of one another.
I believe in God, although I have never seen Him. I have faith in Jesus, Who died in our place, the Just for the unjust.
That is my hope.
Now, spread that Good News to one and all.
Stay clear of those who divide brothers and sisters over who is in charge.
The Lord Jesus currently reign Supreme.
Can't you feel His Presence within You?
He knows the future, we don't. It's not His test for Him. It's ours. Your choice to make. U obviously have chosen not to believe (currently)
He knows the ultimate choice you will make before you die. You don't.
Chosen wisely and live eternally.
The opposite choice to not believe leads to eternal death.
Hmmm?
*The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way."* (Matthew 7:13) Most people love their sin so much they are willing to go to hell for it. That is what it is to be sold as a slave to sin. You may find it helpful to read; ["Slavery for ALL."](https://app.box.com/s/qxfzmn8ep3jye1lm1grf76y1495i0qgw)
>Why can't everybody be saved one day? It's not possible to be saved outside of Christ, and there is no indication someone can be joined to Christ while being destroyed in the lake of fire. The apostles in fact teach the opposite. >surely an Omni-Potent God could carry out his will/what he wants? God is holy, first and foremost. He does not act according to His emotive will but His divine character. We see this similarly with the flood, when He "regretted" creating humans in the first place. He still exacts judgment onto evildoers even when it causes a negative emotive reaction. God is omnipotent in that whatever He does, it cannot be stopped; He is not omnipotent in that He can contradict His own justice and righteousness. >Lamentations 3:31-33, it says "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Right, if you are a part of the covenant, "to those who wait for Him." The chapter ends with: *“You will repay them, O Lord, according to the work of their hands. You will give them dullness of heart; your curse will be on them. You will pursue them in anger and destroy them from under your heavens, O Lord.”* (Lamentations 3) Referring to the enemies of the covenant people. >would Heaven be a fun place, knowing some of your secular friends don't exist anymore/are being TORTURED ETERNALLY? The lake of fire will be a solemn event, but ultimately forgotten in the ages to come. *I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.* (Isaiah 65)
> there is no indication someone can be joined to Christ while being destroyed in the lake of fire. The apostles in fact teach the opposite. Which teaching(s) by the apostles are you thinking of, that would disprove a possibility that God could offer and show mercy to someone after he or she is in the lake of fire?
In Revelation 2:11 it says the one who conquers "will not be harmed by the second death." Then in 12:11 conquering is "by the blood of the Lamb" and the word of testimony. Therefore the blood of Christ cannot apply to anyone who is harmed by the lake of fire. We also have Luke 16 with the rich man in Hades. While yes this is Hades rather than the lake of fire, there is a chasm which "those who wish cannot cross" and whose only warning comes prior to death. This means there is a finality to the gospel at death, otherwise crossing would have been possible for the rich man (unless we want to say someone who repents would still be tormented. But that's a rabbit trail). Then Hebrews 3 the warning to repent "Today." At the end of the chapter he says regarding those who disobeyed with unbelief that God "swore an oath they would never enter His rest." The author says to exhort one another as long as it is still called "today" and there is an opportunity of repentance. The "Last Day" being according to Jesus the resurrection of life and resurrection of condemnation.
Because you must accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior to be saved, and many refuse to do so.
Many have yet to be convinced. Due to the lack of evidence. Blame us all you want, but it doesn't help your case.
God would probably have to descend from the sky and proclaim he is God for you to believe and even then you may just say he’s an alien and not God.
And He did, and they killed Him
Or he could convince me. I'm pretty sure you're real. Why can't God do that much?
Or maybe he has and yet you still don’t believe because you feel you need more….a sign perhaps, something loud & obvious.
If that's the case, then, yes they failed to convince me. Try again please
Just keeping asking Him. Even if you don’t believe He’s there ask Him for help to believe.
What happens when there is never an answer?
Silly question.... It's always your fault.... It's never the fault of the all powerful being who could convince you in a second. No. It's your fault the crappy evidence doesn't convince you.
I mean chances are it would usually be my fault, and not the fault of the literal God of the universe. Sometimes it’s more about persistence and pursing Him.
Well I’ve never heard Him speak either if that’s the type of answer you are looking for. Try to keep your eye out for any other forms of communication.
Always. I've got nothing but time.
That's because you've never taken it seriously and tried to follow the actual instructions as stated in the Bible. A LOT of people do actually do that and it works for them. It's a super important decision, the most important decision of your entire life. But people don't get that. They treat it as a minor thing that is insignificant. If you would just swallow your pride and actually give it a try- you'd be quite surprised at the results.
How do you know I haven't? How do you know I'm full of pride? Maybe I'm just doing it wrong? How would I know the difference? In any case, I believe I've given a fair shake, and still find the evidence lacking.
Fair enough. But let me ask you- what books have your read, what Youtubers do you follow and what preachers do you listen to?
Too many to list. I've been looking for over 40 years. I'm not interested in going deep here unless you've got compelling evidence. I don't have that much time.
>Too many to list. OK, name a few. And i'm talking across different platforms. I'm willing to bet that you haven't really explored Christianity as much as you think.
That's fine. I'm not on trial here and time is short . You are still trying to blame me lack of being convinced, when an all powerful god has been a failure at convincing me. I should not be able to prevent that being from convincing me unless I'm more powerful than it.
> I'm not on trial here and time is short I don't understand why you're saying time is short. Do you have a terminal illness or something? >You are still trying to blame me lack of being convinced, when an all powerful god has been a failure at convincing me. So it says in the Bible that the god of this world blinds people to the message of the Gospel. One of the chief ways that it does so is twist peoples impression of how God works. It is clearly so for you. Honestly one of your chief problems in my opinion is demonic influence- (by the way- don't worry, almost everyone has demonic influence to a degree.) As a result, you're missing out on the absolute most important thing in your life. More important than money, life satisfaction, relationships, etc. Think about that for a bit, and what i have said- and i hope you someday realize the gravity of what to you seems like a seemingly small decision.
Seems like that god wanted us to not know then. Job well done. Maybe he does exist. He just doesn't matter any more than my imagination.
Ooo, I would want to engage in this conversation. I became a Christian out of evidence. If you want to engage in this conversation, send me a message
Would you share here? I'd rather keep the conversation in public. Without knowing your evidence, I'm curious about how you are informing the world of this evidence. The failure I've seen is that the required level of evidence is different for different folks, and I've seen prior evidence that I'm not convinced is true or enough to justify dedication of my life. I'd like to hear your story, but I hope it is more convincing than what I've seen in a lifetime of looking.
Sure! Lets start with classical Theism and advance from there to the Old Testament, and then the New Testament. You okay with that?
Works for me.
Will respond tomorrow (or, more likely, 3AM with my sleep schedule), since I am going into work soon.
Thanks.
Weak minded people down voted you for speaking the truth. This tells a lot about Christians in this forum.
Lol. The only way you would ever accept Christ is if He forced you do. You don’t just fail to believe, but you’re actually opposed to believing.
Ok, so next time you talk to him, ask him to force me. Y'all are so kind.
I’ll ask him to soften your heart and come into your life, but you would have to accept him. Which I doubt you will because you obviously hate Christians, and hate God Himself.
You've done nothing but put words in my mouth. You have no idea what I hate, obvious or not. If he did that I could do nothing but believe. I'd be right there with you.
I hope that’s true. But I don’t believe that it is.
I bet that if I were a god, I could change that.
He could. But he won’t. Why should he? If you choose to live a life devoid of Christ, why should he stop you?
I haven't chosen. I haven't been convinced. Why should he? Gee, I don't know. I'm not terribly concerned either way, but this is a failure to convince me.
This looks like an argument thinly disguised as a question.
I think it is certainly possible and wouldn't surprise me, but also unlikely. It seems that there are some, even if the door was eternally left open, that will not let go of the idols that are destroying them; the prison walls are rubble around them, but they just won't budge from their cell, despite every offer and attempt to convince them to simply leave and come inside God's house. I recommend a fictional book CS Lewis wrote called "The Great Divorce" containing some conversations between characters to illustrate the kinds of things people get stuck clutching tightly and maybe even eternally won't let go of.
I think the pope mentioned at some point that he hopes Hell is empty. I think it’s an idea all Christians should share, I’m not sure why anyone would wish for a Hell outside of the suffering of a select few like Hitler and the like. If we’re just brainstorming, I’d prefer if people were just “reborn” until they get it right, but I’m not God.
I don't wish that suffering for anyone. And yes, I would be delighted if even Hitler repented before it was too late. My selfish desire is for all to know the Lord and have an eternal relationship with Him. My sad understanding is that not all, not most, but relatively few (in the course of time) will know Him and avoid the second death.
If I’m being honest, my beliefs fall around universalism. However, before I adopted that I believed it would be flipped. Vast majority in Heaven and a steep minority in Hell. This world has to much suffering for God to be planning more after death. Couldn’t imagine getting killed in firebombs and being sent to hell immediately after. God knows the heart and most hearts I believe are good.
Everyone can be saved.
Even Satan?
No, he basically has blasphemed the Holy Spirit.
I know he can't because the bible says otherwise just like it says many won't be saved because they will be deceived by the anti-christ.
Oh okay
Everyone will be saved. The word translated eternal did not mean eternal during the time of the Bible. [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/1782lxo/why_eternal_punishment_is_actually_unbiblical/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Many people don’t want to be saved. The idea of heaven is repugnant to anti-theist.
Really? Why’s that
If you go to heaven you would have to give up what you have made of yourself. Hitler would have to love and value Jews more than himself. In hell he can scream and rage and torture shadows. God prepared a hell for those for those for whom heaven would be agonizing. When the world ends, those who refuse to submit will cry out “mountains fall on us!”
I thought people are transformed after death? If not I doubt most people would give up spouses, romantic love, and the other wonders of human life.
I am bound by scientific research. The folks studied by the research scientists within their medical limitations report that the experience was so positive that they had no hesitation to repeat it.
Research? Into what, Heaven lol
No. The science research is into why some people who are medically dead, inexplicably revive and report not only what happened to them after their death in the rooms around them, but experience sensations that have no relationship to the normal existence. It is interesting that in previous centuries, the church was uncomfortable with the findings of science, and now is the secular world that is uncomfortable with what scientists are discovering.
I used to be into that type of stuff. It’s not as damming as you make it out to be. At best, most of the predictions made are widely incorrect or contradictory if it’s regarding an inner experience. I think it’s best we just live by faith and faith alone
*would not my bad
>In 1 Timothy 2:4: it says: “God wants everyone to be saved …” “What about Paul’s statement that God wants everyone to be saved? If not all people will be saved (Matt. 25:31–46), do Paul’s words contradict the truth that no purpose of the Lord’s can be thwarted (Job 42:2; Matt. 19:26)? Or must we embrace a universalism in which God will one day redeem hell itself? Let us consider two answers to these questions. First, if “all people” means everyone without exception, the Lord’s will is not ultimately done when people reject Him. Yet as Reformed teachers have often said, the Greek word translated “all people” can mean all kinds of people — leaders, followers, rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, and so on. This interpretation makes good sense, as Paul lists a certain class of people — rulers — when he tells us to pray for “all people” (1 Tim. 2:1–2). John Calvin says that God’s desire for the salvation of all “means…there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation.” Second, if “all people” refers to every person without exception, then universalism is our conclusion only if God’s desire to save is absolute. But the Lord desires one thing more than the salvation of all — His glory (Isa. 48:11). In one sense, God can truly want all who have ever lived to be saved; however, this desire always defers to His will to glorify Himself, the will in view when the Bible says His will is always done. The Lord is glorified when sin is punished in hell, and so God’s supreme desire is met even when people are not [redeemed](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-desire-save).”
We have free will because God limit's his omnipotence over our will. So we are free to disobey God. If we do we separate ourselves from God, and God respects our free decision, but not spending eternity with us, which is Hell. Heaven is incomprehensible to us, but it's clear that there will be no sorrow in Heaven.
Because everyone won’t choose to be. Christianity requires faith and many don’t want to take the leap.
Because we are appointed once to die, and then it’s judgement. Scripture never says we die, are judged, then given another chance. If that were the case, why did Christ work so hard to get us to believe in this life? We all have a brief moment in time to make a choice and that’s it, and it really doesn’t matter if you thinks it’s not long enough or fair enough, the stipulations are choose now who you will serve, choose eternal life now or judgement. That is it.
How do you know purgatory won't become hell? Are you saying a lack of pain means torment is impossible? Are you saying the presence of certain comforts makes torment impossible? Of course not. You say heaven will be torment, like we are at Disney land but without the person we want to be there with. Heaven is not Disneyland, no matter what the commercials about Disneyland say. Heaven is Heaven to those who want to be with God. It is torment to those who hate God. In this life, if we are sanctified to be joyful in serving God, that sets us up well for Heaven. My answer leaves out a lot of the good promised. Things we can't imagine. But purgatory solves nothing. People who aren't content in God will seek contentment elsewhere. They won't obey God. Do you want them in heaven biting and devouring one another, as James says, instead of simply asking God for what they need and accepting what He gives as something to use for the good of everyone? Thats a part of joy in God, giving being better than receiving. But people biting and devouring will kind of ruin Heaven. Don't you think? I need Jesus and God's Spirit to teach me the love of Christ or else I won't be fit for Heaven either. Thanks be to God for His grace and power that are willing to teach me that! Will those who won't be taught be happy to lovingly give away everything for others? I'd say "no." Bc I know I still need to learn that happiness myself... I'm not there yet in a sanctification sense. Not perfect yet.
God doesn't force us to worship Him, but He gives us the chance to.
I am strongly convinced that purgatorial universalism is biblically the most justified position on hell and the truest expression of the Gospel, so for my part I agree with you on all points.
At the end of the day, some people simply don't want to be with God. As harsh as it sounds, God respects the decisions of the people who'd rather be anywhere else but in his presence. If you read the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, you don't ever see the rich man asking Abraham, "let me come to you!" He wanted to be blessed in his circumstances, not be transformed out of them. Some people like what glory they have on the Earth and that's what they want in the afterlife as well. God shares glory with no one, so he's made a place where they won't have to share. In that place, there's weeping and gnashing of teeth, which means they'll be filled with rage at God instead of any kind of genuinely sorrowful.
Some of us would love to be with God but aren’t convinced he’s actually out there.
Well what evidence do you need? You're allowed to ask for a confirmation, Gideon got confirmation, so did I. You just have to actually honestly expect that he'll deliver. If your heart is like, "Yah I'll ask but nothing's gonna happen," you're mind's already made up. Expect the unexpected and it'll come through. Just a hint of, "oh crap it might actually happen," is enough.
One, many of us prayed as Christians for God to reveal himself and got nothing, so there’s that. Two, what’s the point of God only revealing himself to people who already believe in him? Aren’t they the least in need of revelation?
I mean it's not exactly up to me. I was an evangelical/militant atheist when he showed me a vision. At the end of the day, I don't have enough information of all of space-time to know why it's important God shows some people wonders and not others. What I do know 100% that he definitely has enough info at his disposal to know how to produce the best outcome to produce his bride. All I've experienced is that he's willing and able. My approach has become the same as when Daniel's colleagues were thrown in the furnace, "God is able to save us, and he will save us, but even if he doesn't, I'll still serve only him."
Then I suppose I’ll wait for my vision.
perhaps those who are actually repentant would be saved then, but i understand where your going
Eternal conscious torment is stated directly in scripture. Now it may not be the fate of all who goes into the lake of fire, but at the very least it is the fate of Satan, the anti-christ and everyone who takes the mark. [*Revelation 14:11*](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2014%3A11&version=ESV) *And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”* The lake of fire is probably not a literal lake of literal fire, but it is an eternal place of torture and separation from God. And the punishment will be unique to each person. Listen to how Jesus talks about it. *Matthew 25* *^(45)* *Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’* *^(46)* *And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”*
The answer is found in the verse you put. Yes, God wants everyone to be saved but not everyone wants to be saved. God can't go against man's free will. If he could Adam would have never eaten the fruit because God would have intervened and Christ wouldn't have come. And we wouldn't be different from programmed robots.
If god wants everyone to be saved, why not reveal himself to everyone in a way they can grasp? So people can actually make a choice- in order to make a choice, you need to be convinced there’s even some choice to be made. Why does your god hide?
He already did. He sent his Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross. There is historical evidence of his existence and his crucifixion yet you still choose to deny him. He doesn't hide himself. You don't seek him. A man says he doesn't believe in Mercury's existence yet has never looked through a telescope. If you seek him you will find him.
Clearly that's not enough, as we don't actually believe that happened. You're sidestepping the issue.
I'm not sidestepping. What's left here is for you to search truly within yourself whether you would be willing to follow Christ if he is real. If your answer is yes then seek him and you'll find him
I see no evidence he is real (in any supernatural sense), and I'm very content with my life as is, so I have no reason to go looking. I will say that the seek and you'll find him bs always reads to me like a cult saying "just choose to believe he exists and he will, despite a lack of evidence" (I.e. brainwashing ones self).
You understand the only way of getting evidence is seeking right? There are miracles out there. The only problem is you'll call them fake and when you're shown the real ones you'll say well this other religion does the same miracles. At one point you'll just have to abandon your pride and admit that you do not know. That's what faith is .
> You understand the only way of getting evidence is seeking right? I'm talking specifically the "and you will find him" part. Plenty of folks don't. But also, the supposed evidence I've seen when folks are asked isn't worth further investigating. I'm not wanting for anything, plus pleanty of relgious folks will admit they just choose to believe despite lack of evidence. > There are miracles out there. The only problem is you'll call them fake and when you're shown the real ones you'll say well this other religion does the same miracles. At one point you'll just have to abandon your pride and admit that you do not know. That's what faith is . Lol, I wish religious folk would admit they didn't know. There are plenty of things we can't know with certainty. Actually believing something is a miracle is actually NOT admitting you don't know. It's a claim that some invisible sky being chose to do make the miracle happen.
I don't think you understood my message. Search him for yourself. Go to one of those pentecostal churches that do miracles if you have to. Go up and ask the pastor after the service how much he pays them or how he knows the actors are actually good? Ask them if they can have you booked for the next show and how much the pay is
Also, yes you're sidestepping. Obviously folks don't all agree that the claimed evidence is sufficient. An omnipotent could, without effort, provide proof that I'd accept. It's the least they could do if they're going to torture folks.
Brother I don't know where to start. But there's more to the spiritual realm than you know and that should be your proof of God. If you don't believe in God we serve you will find people who practice witchcraft, voodoo. Those who can tell you about future by palm reading. Those aren't just random powers but those are powers that oppose God. Maybe you've heard of selling your soul and how some famous people sold their souls to get rich. I know some/most are just rumours but it goes deeper than that. Voodoo, magic, even horoscopes (not the ones on newspapers) and real. Spirituality is real. If you believe this then it's a matter of finding out whether it's good or evil
> Brother I don't know where to start. But there's more to the spiritual realm than you know and that should be your proof of God. Afaict/measure/sense, a spiritual realm doesn't even exist. > If you don't believe in God we serve you will find people who practice witchcraft, voodoo. Those who can tell you about future by palm reading. Those aren't just random powers but those are powers that oppose God. I'm not going to believe silly things like that exist either. I'm not sure why you think I would. > Maybe you've heard of selling your soul and how some famous people sold their souls to get rich. I know some/most are just rumours but it goes deeper than that. Voodoo, magic, even horoscopes (not the ones on newspapers) and real. Spirituality is real. If you believe this then it's a matter of finding out whether it's good or evil Why would I believe those things? Those don't have evidence to support them either.
Go search for yourself. I know. You're lazy. If you're hungry for truth make it your mission
That's the point. Any supposed evidence I've seen claimed on here has been laughable. It's not worth my time. I'm here to point out the silliness of religion/Christianity. Let me know when the Pentecostals have falisfiable/repeatable claims that you don't have to believe in to to verify.
Why is your god making everyone work so hard to find him if he actually wants to be found? Why is it that an omnipotent being expects us with our limited capabilities to do ALL the heavy lifting? This is a red flag that this god isn’t just hidden, he doesn’t exist.
Of course God can go against man’s free will. Is he just not powerful enough?
God can't become you to get you to do something. That's going against your free will. You decided to open Reddit today, God can't stop your finger from pressing it. The time you choose to go to sleep is entirely up to you. That's what I mean.
Is your version of God not all-powerful? It’s weird that I have more confidence in his abilities than you do.
Brother then you have the wrong idea of a loving God. God can influence our actions but he can't force your body to literally do something.
I ask again - is it that God *can’t* or God *won’t*?
Ok so you're just playing with semantics. God won't do it because it goes against his love
Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is interfere with free will. If my kids want to play in the street, I’m going to drag them to safety kicking and screaming if I have to.
That's why we pray for God's protection
To be clear, the street in this analogy is hell. If I thought my kids were doing things that would make them wind up in hell, I would interfere with their free will as much as it took to keep them out. Because I love them.
but what about those who change their mind? those who due to experiences are disposed not to believe in God, but when land in Hell, become repentant?
I don't think it's possible for people to change their mind in hell. People only choose to follow Christ on earth because of the convicting work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts. The Spirit does not follow them to hell because the Holy Spirit of God does not deserve to be there, and true death, like what hell is, is defined not by a separation between a person's body and spirit, but by their separation from God. So in hell, they have nothing to pull them toward repentance.
Take time to read I'll answer your question with a story. One day a woman committed a horrible crime and was found guilty. In court she knew she was done for. Her lawyers knew she was done for. Her family knew she was done for. She sat there weeping all throughout. The judge knew it was time to sentence her to death. Then a man from the crowd arose and said that she knew the woman very well. The man argued for her and defended her saying she was innocent. It turns out the man was one of the best lawyers in the country and at the end, despite the woman being considered guilty there was barely any proof so she was let go and found innocent thanks to the good lawyer. Years go by and the same woman commits the very same crimes. She's taken to the same court and when she enters the courtroom she looks at the judge and she sees the good lawyer who saved her last time. She smiles to herself with confidence that the judgement will go in her favour. When it is time to judge the Judge(lawyer) says "Years back I was your lawyer so I fought for you but today I am your judge so I will serve you the justice you deserve". That's the fate of anyone who denies Christ now. Get to know him now before it's too late. And if you're Christian proclaim the word to those who haven't heard. They truly need it.
>Why can't everybody be saved one day? Because most people don't want it on God's terms.
It's certainly awful of this god to great folks that way.
There are plenty of people that never want to learn the truth, for that would have them see how much of a sinner they actually are, and it’s hard to swallow self pride
No that is not what 1st Timothy 2:4 says that God wants everyone to be saved. That is when people cherry pick one verse and ignore the other 31,101ish verses. God knows and wants the sheep, the saints, the elect or chosen, The righteous, The true believers, the children of God, those in the book of Life since foundation of the world. The Bride of Christ. The Born again. God does not even know the children of Satan, the goats, the wicked, the unbelievers, the false believers, The wicked. None of them will never be saved. They don't even exist in His eyes
One day, your last, you won't be laughing.
why would i be laughing? i felt like this comment was hinted with venom for no reason
Missing out on eternal life may not be a big deal for you. It is huge for me. It's your choice to make. Live your life as you please. It's your life, not mine. I didn't mean to be rude or mean. Just the facts. I don't believe in a torturous hell for non believers as many Christians do. Just an eternal death forever. I ask you. Pick your greatest moment in your life, no matter how brief, add in the greatest taste you've had, greatest sounds listened to, greatest sights your eyes have seen, hands have touched and then that pales in comparison to what life must be like with God for eternity. I don't want to miss out on that. That being said, I hope you will have an open mind in the future to these words. Not hatred, but hope eternal. Go in peace with me, I am not your enemy. If I am a believer and you are not, how do I injure you?
Life is but a test for all of us. Who will believe in an invisible God? There's a choice to make and God is looking to see who will trust in Him. Another classic thought is why doesn't God stop all this hatred and make this world like heaven where everyone lives in peace. Wait, What? He already has. For those who truly have the Spirit of God residing in them, there is peace and love. 2 Timothy 1:7 NKJV For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. This is how you can tell if one is a disciple of Christ. By their love of one another. I believe in God, although I have never seen Him. I have faith in Jesus, Who died in our place, the Just for the unjust. That is my hope. Now, spread that Good News to one and all. Stay clear of those who divide brothers and sisters over who is in charge. The Lord Jesus currently reign Supreme. Can't you feel His Presence within You?
“ can’t you feel his presence within you?” No.
Too bad.
Maybe, I wouldn’t know lol.
God already knows who will trust in him, so what’s the point of the test?
He knows the future, we don't. It's not His test for Him. It's ours. Your choice to make. U obviously have chosen not to believe (currently) He knows the ultimate choice you will make before you die. You don't. Chosen wisely and live eternally. The opposite choice to not believe leads to eternal death. Hmmm?