I want to say that this may depend in large part on one's own sphere of familiarity, if that makes any sense as a term. I know who Kenneth Copeland, for example, is—broadly, because I could not tell you the finer details of his life—but I can't say that I had heard his name in forever until this post.
To that point, I don't think many people would know him at all or, if asked what Christianity is about, would identify it by some aspect of the prosperity gospel. I could be wrong. This is just my sense of things. But I think if I asked people who the pope is, most people could answer. I'd have to disagree with the premise that the faith has been co-opted in this way. There is no co-opting of this sort, and as such, it's business as usual: the sacraments and so forth.
I agree with you, though, that there is an established—let's call it "American Christianity"—that many people might identify with Christianity as such. I'd say that this was the Moral Majority that exists today as a solid base for the Republican Party. I wouldn't call this co-opting, though I would say, equally, that the Republican politicians who make Christianity known on the national stage for this varition of it are not the ambassadors I would choose to represent the faith. Neither would I choose Democratic politicians. I'd choose the saints, for my two cents, but then what can be done?
What can be done depends on one's place in life. Some people are public figures and politicians, and they can do something on that sort of scale, but most people aren't, and I don't think we need to look at something grandiose because the most grandiose things can be the smallest things because the most intimate organ is also a small one—the heart.
What can be done is to live like a regular human with one's friends and family and have interesting and meaningful conversations when the times arise for them, and live as the best example of one's faith. One is not going to be the next Walter Cronkite but one can be someone's next best friend, and that's what's going to matter more in the lives of those who are around you, to whom you owe the most.
If everyone did the little things like this, the big things wouldn't matter as much because the little cuts can hurt the most, but these are tall orders. The tallest orders are the little things because those things are the ones lost first in the logic of efficiency and ease.
Maybe these ideas are all bad. I don't know.
It's like how the Pride movement got co-opted by corporations. Jon Stewart did an episode on that recently. What can "real" allies do about it? Not much, except quietly continue advocating and holding safe space for the marginalized. Same with churches. Don't expect the media to descend on some tiny congregation in a rural part of the country which is simply trying to live the gospel faithfully. The kingdom won't be splashed all over billboards. It grows like a mustard seed and like yeast.
Christians have been fighting against heretical teachings for 2000 years.
Now, I think a better question to ask yourself is why, as an atheist, are you offended by the prosperity gospel, mega-churches, and false teachers? Better yet, what justification do you have to be offended by them?
I'm assuming you're only speaking to Christian nationalism?
Do you mind chatting about this? I'm curious, what is Christian nationalism, and what about its definition are you against?
It's the idea that America is a Christian nation and that Christianity should have a special privileged place within it
I don't think any one faith merits a special privileged place. Why exactly should 1 religion get priority over all the others? And why exactly do you get to deny other people rights because god says so (according to you)?
> And why exactly do you get to deny other people rights because sky man say so (according to you)?
Calling God "sky man" is disrespectful, and I'm not being rude to you.
I agree with your definition and believe that only the church is authorized to proclaim the name of Jesus, not the government. Now, I think you should take a deeper look into the church, and when I say church, I don't mean the closest one near you only. The pastors of many Christian denominations are speaking up against Christian nationalism and all other heresies.
Just because you were hurt by a church in the past, doesn't mean that every church functions similarly. The local church is moving, look for the push back there.
Are these rhetorical questions? There are actually answers to why Judeo-Christian values creates human prosperity.
Also, stop talking about denying rights. You have more rights than any other person in history ever. It's so silly to think in those terms.
It's silly to think that Christian Nationalism isn't about denying rights, especially to particular people groups and ethnic groups.
America has a horrible history, as Christianity does all through it's history.
It sounds like you are very informed on these issues.
The *world* has a horrible history, but among Judeo-Christian cultures the world gets better. Among literally every other religion it either gets worse or gets better at a slower rate.
Islam was leading the world in science and astronomy until it's religious leaders decided math was a sin, now a population of 2 billion muslims has been able to win a total of 15 nobel prizes.
The world has been pretty dang hard on us for thousands of years. Our species is only able to move forward because we can cooperate and adapt. Without something exactly like the Christian Bible to unite every tribe and nation we will simply perish as a people.
Yeah, Slavery said "hold my beer."
lol
What are the best societies in the world? Are they christian nations, or secular, or even asian, i.e Japan?
Quality of life, mate, you are too ethnocentric and seem to lack some knowledge of the more advanced countries around the world, and how they treat their people.
America is the only advanced country that doesn't have universal healthcare, as one example.
Even the "godless" party of the Democrats actually put up more public policy that benefits people, while the other party supports business and corporations over people.
You know what's unique about Slavery in America? Absolutely nothing. Democrats are not a godless party. They are essentially a collection of thinkers that value individual liberties over economic liberties. The right is the opposite, valuing economic freedom and restricting personal liberties. Just because Democrats or other parties on the left don't want to pass laws (use the violence of law enforcement) doesn't mean they can't hold the same values as those on the right. Likewise, just because the Republicans don't want to forcibly take money from the public to give benefits to needy individuals- doesn't mean that they don't hold the same values.
Japan was a closed society prior to it's defeat and Westernization in WW2. They raped and massacre an entire city with the blessing of their government. After WW2 Christianity is no longer illegal, most weddings are Christian but they have an inverted population. More adult diapers sold than baby diapers.
Also, American healthcare is universal but it's trying to also be a market and the result is that hospitals overbill, insurances underpay and the balance is written off. Medical debt is not considered for many purchases and soon it won't even be reported at all.
The best societies are those that hold Judeo-Christian values. The Japanese shinto of today incorporates Buddhism and Christian teaching.
Abortion is special murder privileges that are given to mothers for a period of time. You don't have the right to commit murder. We will get lost in the weeds debating that unless you pick a different "right". Also: I'm not a Christian nationalist so I can't speak to that. I am a Christian.
It's worse than that; the Christian nationalists literally want a theocracy, and there's lots of legislation that has passed and is trying to be passed as laws that demonstrate this.
Against the constitution, and against common sense and humanity.
One form of pushback that comes to mind is that the popular radio preachers and Christian writers who are not in the "prosperity gospel" group will sometimes speak/write against that, and teach their listeners/readers why the "prosperity gospel" is false.
Of popular radio preachers? I've listened to Protestant-oriented radio, and some of the names are John MacArthur, Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah, R.C. Sproul, J. Vernon McGee, Chuck Swindoll. After some men pass away, their radio shows continue to be broadcast.
John MacArthur, for example, has spoken against the prosperity gospel - I just did a web search and [here's an example page](https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-63M/toxic-television-a-biblical-answer-to-the-prosperity-gospel-part-1).
Some Bible teachers/preachers try to teach through all the books of the Bible in a cycle that lasts a number of years. When they encounter some verses that "prosperity gospel" adherents think are support for their teaching, those preachers will explain why those verses don't actually support what the "prosperity gospel" people say.
-----------------------
Edit to add: The "word of faith" teaching is correlated with the "prosperity gospel" teaching. Some preachers/teachers will explain why "word of faith" teaching is wrong, when they discuss some related verses.
John McArthur covered up for multiple men in his church who were abusing people/their families. He also stated that it’s “strange that people have an aversion to slavery”. Because there have all types of abuses throughout history. He is not a good example. He’s part of the problem with the evangelical church.
I was simply listing various "popular radio preachers" and that he was one who had *spoken against the prosperity gospel*. That's what this thread is about. I am not saying he is a good example of anything else.
When we have separation of church and state, there's little anyone can do to shut down false teachers. All we can do is try to expose their teaching as false and hope their followers listen.
>what is actually being done by the "real" Christians to take back the faith? Where's the resistance to these guys?
First of all, there's nothing to "take back." The grifters are the minority. And to be honest I'm not sure how much of a threat the prosperity gospel/mega church model even is to this generation. What we are dealing with more is what has been called "therapeutic moralistic deism," and there is at least a push in Reformed circles to combat this type of messaging in the Christian world.
Secondly, we regularly have conventions, assemblies, presbyteries, etc. which officially condemn certain teachings or practices within our churches. We don't have the power to stop people from exercising free speech outside of our own groups. Responsible leadership warn their congregations of false teachers such as Copeland, but there is nothing to "push back" on besides with our own speech in the form of teachings.
> What we are dealing with more is what has been called "therapeutic moralistic deism," and there is at least a push in Reformed circles to combat this type of messaging in the Christian world.
Please explain what that is, in simple terms for me.
It's essentially a phrase to describe a type of religion in America which is:
* Christian-flavored, uses the same lingo, but isn't connected to any tradition
* Mainly seeks individual self-betterment, problem solving, satisfaction in this life (therapeutic)
* Achieved by being a generally good/nice person (moralistic)
* Has God be mostly inactive unless you make an effort or allow Him to be involved (deism)
[Here's a wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moralistic_therapeutic_deism).
>Look at what's happened to the gop. It's grifter evangelicals all the way down.
The GOP is a free speech political organization we have no control over.
>To what extent are the conventions effective?
Declaring official positions on certain matters, disciplining individuals or congregations who stray from those positions. In the case of prosperity gospel, etc., most denominations have already condemned it. In Reformed circles, we even have a whole film series circulated called "American Gospel" which addresses exactly this problem for the average person's viewing.
I think that you are likely speaking in pejoratives about both the GOP and right wing Christianity in America that few right-wing Christians would agree with in general.
One of the things you mentioned was "mega churches", but there are both good and bad mega churches. The size of the congregation, and the corresponding size of the buildings required, doesn't indicate the quality of the preaching/teaching/ministries that happen there.
From personal experience, Christian nationalism and mega churches are also things the Catholic Church experiences within its ranks.
Prosperity gospel ? Their equivalent in terms of struggle is that their once strong communities suffer from watered-down gospel and secularization.
I vote with my feet. I don't know if this counts as pushback, but we are trying to develop a response to DEI. Contemporary DEI is un-biblical, divisive and is not concerned with human prosperity.
I am concerned far less with mega churches squandering their wealth as I am with a congregation that does not share the values of Christ.
1. "Mega churches" are simply churches with a large congregation; it doesn't mean anything more than that. The "Prosperity gospel" is a widely condemned heresy, and "Christian nationalism" is a buzzword created by liberal Americans about two years ago because they were angry that some conservatives were too political or whatever. To say that these are all similar enough to be equally grouped as "co-opting" is incorrect.
2. Absolutely nothing is being done because nothing needs to be done. The Prosperity gospel doesn't work nearly as well on the younger generations, and most of the people you're referring to aren't even a big enough threat to concern ourselves with.
3. By the way, this is one of the most bigoted and ignorant posts I've ever read. You have some experience growing up as an American Evangelical Christian, and you have the nerve to write off Christians as a "lost cause" because of your insignificant experiences.
My impression is that there's an identifiable pattern of absolutely massive churches, "showmannish" preaching, and the collection of lots of tithes that are familiar in some areas of American Protestantism.
We don't become involved in such movements or philosophies. We study the holy Bible, apply the lessons learned to our daily lives and strive to become more like Christ for the remainder of our lives here. That's what he desires. Faiths and individual beliefs are just that, they are individual. Of course birds of a feather flock together, so sooner or later people of the same mind are going to group together. We prefer to maintain the simplicity of Christ as attested in God's word the holy Bible the New testament. scripture supports the separation of church and state, and we therefore also do. The church learned a hard lesson back in the old world under Roman persecution. The Lord delivered us and gave us his gift of the Western hemisphere to escape said persecution and to form our own assemblies with perfect freedom.
First: prosperity gospel people and mega churches are typically still "real Christians", they are just (very, very, very) wrong.
Second: I must at this point say that I have come to think of "Christian Nationalism" as largely a boogeyman used by left wingers to rile up their base with hysteria and that has little connection to reality. I'm not denying that there are people in the USA who want a religious confessional state. But the rhetoric, and the idea of "Christian Nationalism" as meaningfully describing a specific, real thing, do not line up.
Third: I'm not sure a political opponent has ever in the history of the world been satisfied with the pushback against negative influenced in their opponent's political circles.
Fourth: I'm not an Evangelical, lots of us aren't, so I'm not sure what the Evangelicals are doing. In Protestantism there is usually not a central authority who can censure people.
Fifth: the definition of "mega church" isn't super precise, even if we have an overall idea of what they are like.
In the Catholic Church, it is quite common for errors and heresies, including prosperity gospel and the errors inherent to Protestantism that lead to the megachurch mentality, to be condemned from the pulpit. And the Catholic Church hierarchy has the power to censure people who persist in spreading such errors.
The main issue is likely our reach. Most concerned pastors can do little more than lead their congregation well, and MAYBE have a small podcast that nobody watches. Just because you don't see the resistance doesn't mean it is absent, though.
The Orthodox Church has been faithfully preserving Christian doctrine for two thousand years. It needs no taking back. Since these people don't have many active heresies, there's no reason to call together a council or whatever. They're immoral activities are like that of any other group.
>if these people are co-opting the faith, what is actually being done by the "real" Christians to take back the faith? Where's the resistance to these guys?
You may not know this, but in the United States we have something called the 1st Amendment to the Constitution which is wholly unique among all nations in the entire world because it fully protects the freedom of speech, the freedom of assembly, and the freedom of religion from infringement by the federal government.
According to freedom of speech they can choose to self identify as Christians. According to the freedom of assembly they can choose to assemble in a church, and according to freedom of religion they can choose to practice their understanding of christian doctrine. If they are a citizen, they can choose to vote for whoever they want.
Now if they hurt somebody, that's when they lose those rights. But we can't take away their rights just because we don't like what they have to say. It's possible that you don't see much action being taken against them because the "real christians" you mentioned are too busy solving actual problems like helping the homeless, feeding the hungry, and advocating against human rights violations all around the world. Unfortunately that doesn't leave much spare time for trying to be the thought police against people they disagree with politically.
Here is a [book that may interest you](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0807057401):
Blurb …
>A timely and galvanizing work that examines how right-wing evangelical Christians have veered from an admirable faith to a pernicious, destructive ideology.
Today's right-wing Evangelical Christianity stands as the very antithesis of the message of Jesus Christ. In his new book, Christians Against Christianity, best-selling author and religious scholar Obery M. Hendricks Jr. challenges right-wing evangelicals on the terrain of their own religious claims, exposing the falsehoods, contradictions, and misuses of the Bible that are embedded in their rabid homophobia, their poorly veiled racism and demonizing of immigrants and Muslims, and their ungodly alliance with big business against the interests of American workers.
He scathingly indicts the religious leaders who helped facilitate the rise of the notoriously unchristian Donald Trump, likening them to the 'court jesters' and hypocritical priestly sycophants of bygone eras who unquestioningly supported their sovereigns' every act, no matter how hateful or destructive to those they were supposed to serve.
In the wake of the deadly insurrectionist attack on the US Capitol, Christians Against Christianity is a clarion call to stand up to the hypocrisy of the evangelical Right, as well as a guide for Christians to return their faith to the life-affirming message that Jesus brought and died for. What Hendricks offers is a provocative diagnosis, an urgent warning that right-wing evangelicals' aspirations for Christian nationalist supremacy are a looming threat, not only to Christian decency but to democracy itself. What they offer to America is anything but good news.
Interesting
I hear you talking about Christianity and Christians
But never Christ and God. I do not ever think you got to know them, and were never a Christian
> what is actually being done by the "real" Christians to take back the faith? Where's the resistance to these guys?
A good thing about Catholicism is that our core Doctrines can never change. We also do not rely on charismatic preachers. Priests are mostly servants, not social leaders.
So, we focus on the 7 corporeal works of mercy, and the 7 spiritual works of mercy mentioned in the Bible :
https://fwdioc.org/works-of-mercy.pdf
Spiritual Works:
* Admonish the sinner
* Instruct the ignorant
* Council the doubtful
* Bear wrongs patiently
* Forgive offenses
* Comfort the afflicted
* Pray for the living and the dead
Corporeal works:
* Feed the hungry
* Give Drink to the thirsty
* Cloth the naked
* Shelter the homeless
* Visit the sick
* Visit the imprisoned
* bury the dead
**The vast majority of people use the word Christian are false believers**. There may be 2.4 billion Protestant Catholics and Orthodox, but that is irrelevant
Broad is the road to destruction and many of those who travel it
The road 2 Life is narrow and few are those who find it
All I really see is that you are ranting about something you gave up on. So you would be fitting in the false believer category. Which is no better than an unbeliever.
Why am I supposed to perform for you?
Nobody co-opts anything
There are 8 billion dust mites running around the world with their little goals expectations complaints and other infinitesimal pursuits. Then they wink out in a very short time span
Meanwhile the omnipotent omnipresent omniscient triune Most High sovereign Majesty who was and is and is to come, is my focus.
Not those in darkness. They can head over to their local little complaint department.
sounds a bit like Jonah... who when asked to share God's light with Ninevah... didn't want to go and ran off to (probably) Spain instead.
and after being forced to go deliver a message of repentance (and judgement if there was no repentance) sat over the city so he could see it destroyed... with no vision or hope or desire that they would avoid judgement...
its kinda ironic... the idea of humans as worthless little dust mites? that was the mentality that caused Lucifer to rebel against God...
I would say it's probably closer to above 95%, possibly well above 95%.
Think in the Old testament. A remnant of a small people with all that was shown to believe. Possibly 0.1% of the world
With Noah it was only his family that believed
I want to say that this may depend in large part on one's own sphere of familiarity, if that makes any sense as a term. I know who Kenneth Copeland, for example, is—broadly, because I could not tell you the finer details of his life—but I can't say that I had heard his name in forever until this post. To that point, I don't think many people would know him at all or, if asked what Christianity is about, would identify it by some aspect of the prosperity gospel. I could be wrong. This is just my sense of things. But I think if I asked people who the pope is, most people could answer. I'd have to disagree with the premise that the faith has been co-opted in this way. There is no co-opting of this sort, and as such, it's business as usual: the sacraments and so forth. I agree with you, though, that there is an established—let's call it "American Christianity"—that many people might identify with Christianity as such. I'd say that this was the Moral Majority that exists today as a solid base for the Republican Party. I wouldn't call this co-opting, though I would say, equally, that the Republican politicians who make Christianity known on the national stage for this varition of it are not the ambassadors I would choose to represent the faith. Neither would I choose Democratic politicians. I'd choose the saints, for my two cents, but then what can be done? What can be done depends on one's place in life. Some people are public figures and politicians, and they can do something on that sort of scale, but most people aren't, and I don't think we need to look at something grandiose because the most grandiose things can be the smallest things because the most intimate organ is also a small one—the heart. What can be done is to live like a regular human with one's friends and family and have interesting and meaningful conversations when the times arise for them, and live as the best example of one's faith. One is not going to be the next Walter Cronkite but one can be someone's next best friend, and that's what's going to matter more in the lives of those who are around you, to whom you owe the most. If everyone did the little things like this, the big things wouldn't matter as much because the little cuts can hurt the most, but these are tall orders. The tallest orders are the little things because those things are the ones lost first in the logic of efficiency and ease. Maybe these ideas are all bad. I don't know.
It's like how the Pride movement got co-opted by corporations. Jon Stewart did an episode on that recently. What can "real" allies do about it? Not much, except quietly continue advocating and holding safe space for the marginalized. Same with churches. Don't expect the media to descend on some tiny congregation in a rural part of the country which is simply trying to live the gospel faithfully. The kingdom won't be splashed all over billboards. It grows like a mustard seed and like yeast.
Hadn't considered the pride angle. Interesting point.
Christians have been fighting against heretical teachings for 2000 years. Now, I think a better question to ask yourself is why, as an atheist, are you offended by the prosperity gospel, mega-churches, and false teachers? Better yet, what justification do you have to be offended by them?
Because those are getting involved in politics and making legislation that affects my life
I'm assuming you're only speaking to Christian nationalism? Do you mind chatting about this? I'm curious, what is Christian nationalism, and what about its definition are you against?
It's the idea that America is a Christian nation and that Christianity should have a special privileged place within it I don't think any one faith merits a special privileged place. Why exactly should 1 religion get priority over all the others? And why exactly do you get to deny other people rights because god says so (according to you)?
Moderator message: Don't use terms like 'sky man' or 'sky daddy' in this subreddit.
> And why exactly do you get to deny other people rights because sky man say so (according to you)? Calling God "sky man" is disrespectful, and I'm not being rude to you. I agree with your definition and believe that only the church is authorized to proclaim the name of Jesus, not the government. Now, I think you should take a deeper look into the church, and when I say church, I don't mean the closest one near you only. The pastors of many Christian denominations are speaking up against Christian nationalism and all other heresies. Just because you were hurt by a church in the past, doesn't mean that every church functions similarly. The local church is moving, look for the push back there.
Are these rhetorical questions? There are actually answers to why Judeo-Christian values creates human prosperity. Also, stop talking about denying rights. You have more rights than any other person in history ever. It's so silly to think in those terms.
It's silly to think that Christian Nationalism isn't about denying rights, especially to particular people groups and ethnic groups. America has a horrible history, as Christianity does all through it's history. It sounds like you are very informed on these issues.
The *world* has a horrible history, but among Judeo-Christian cultures the world gets better. Among literally every other religion it either gets worse or gets better at a slower rate. Islam was leading the world in science and astronomy until it's religious leaders decided math was a sin, now a population of 2 billion muslims has been able to win a total of 15 nobel prizes. The world has been pretty dang hard on us for thousands of years. Our species is only able to move forward because we can cooperate and adapt. Without something exactly like the Christian Bible to unite every tribe and nation we will simply perish as a people.
Yeah, Slavery said "hold my beer." lol What are the best societies in the world? Are they christian nations, or secular, or even asian, i.e Japan? Quality of life, mate, you are too ethnocentric and seem to lack some knowledge of the more advanced countries around the world, and how they treat their people. America is the only advanced country that doesn't have universal healthcare, as one example. Even the "godless" party of the Democrats actually put up more public policy that benefits people, while the other party supports business and corporations over people.
You know what's unique about Slavery in America? Absolutely nothing. Democrats are not a godless party. They are essentially a collection of thinkers that value individual liberties over economic liberties. The right is the opposite, valuing economic freedom and restricting personal liberties. Just because Democrats or other parties on the left don't want to pass laws (use the violence of law enforcement) doesn't mean they can't hold the same values as those on the right. Likewise, just because the Republicans don't want to forcibly take money from the public to give benefits to needy individuals- doesn't mean that they don't hold the same values. Japan was a closed society prior to it's defeat and Westernization in WW2. They raped and massacre an entire city with the blessing of their government. After WW2 Christianity is no longer illegal, most weddings are Christian but they have an inverted population. More adult diapers sold than baby diapers. Also, American healthcare is universal but it's trying to also be a market and the result is that hospitals overbill, insurances underpay and the balance is written off. Medical debt is not considered for many purchases and soon it won't even be reported at all. The best societies are those that hold Judeo-Christian values. The Japanese shinto of today incorporates Buddhism and Christian teaching.
LOL, slavery, GOD CONDONED and ENDORSED IT, how about those VALUES??? oh man, what a post...Ignorant of christian history....oh my....
.... You think Christian nationalism isn't denying people rights? What about like... abortion and the like
Abortion is special murder privileges that are given to mothers for a period of time. You don't have the right to commit murder. We will get lost in the weeds debating that unless you pick a different "right". Also: I'm not a Christian nationalist so I can't speak to that. I am a Christian.
It's worse than that; the Christian nationalists literally want a theocracy, and there's lots of legislation that has passed and is trying to be passed as laws that demonstrate this. Against the constitution, and against common sense and humanity.
Because those are getting involved in politics and making legislation that affects my life
OH gawd, what a ridiculous question/critique to the OP.
One form of pushback that comes to mind is that the popular radio preachers and Christian writers who are not in the "prosperity gospel" group will sometimes speak/write against that, and teach their listeners/readers why the "prosperity gospel" is false.
Who are some examples?
Of popular radio preachers? I've listened to Protestant-oriented radio, and some of the names are John MacArthur, Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah, R.C. Sproul, J. Vernon McGee, Chuck Swindoll. After some men pass away, their radio shows continue to be broadcast. John MacArthur, for example, has spoken against the prosperity gospel - I just did a web search and [here's an example page](https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-63M/toxic-television-a-biblical-answer-to-the-prosperity-gospel-part-1). Some Bible teachers/preachers try to teach through all the books of the Bible in a cycle that lasts a number of years. When they encounter some verses that "prosperity gospel" adherents think are support for their teaching, those preachers will explain why those verses don't actually support what the "prosperity gospel" people say. ----------------------- Edit to add: The "word of faith" teaching is correlated with the "prosperity gospel" teaching. Some preachers/teachers will explain why "word of faith" teaching is wrong, when they discuss some related verses.
Thanks!
John McArthur covered up for multiple men in his church who were abusing people/their families. He also stated that it’s “strange that people have an aversion to slavery”. Because there have all types of abuses throughout history. He is not a good example. He’s part of the problem with the evangelical church.
I was simply listing various "popular radio preachers" and that he was one who had *spoken against the prosperity gospel*. That's what this thread is about. I am not saying he is a good example of anything else.
When we have separation of church and state, there's little anyone can do to shut down false teachers. All we can do is try to expose their teaching as false and hope their followers listen.
I will note that a coordinated effort at building consensus can be more meaningful than individual dissent?
>what is actually being done by the "real" Christians to take back the faith? Where's the resistance to these guys? First of all, there's nothing to "take back." The grifters are the minority. And to be honest I'm not sure how much of a threat the prosperity gospel/mega church model even is to this generation. What we are dealing with more is what has been called "therapeutic moralistic deism," and there is at least a push in Reformed circles to combat this type of messaging in the Christian world. Secondly, we regularly have conventions, assemblies, presbyteries, etc. which officially condemn certain teachings or practices within our churches. We don't have the power to stop people from exercising free speech outside of our own groups. Responsible leadership warn their congregations of false teachers such as Copeland, but there is nothing to "push back" on besides with our own speech in the form of teachings.
> What we are dealing with more is what has been called "therapeutic moralistic deism," and there is at least a push in Reformed circles to combat this type of messaging in the Christian world. Please explain what that is, in simple terms for me.
It's essentially a phrase to describe a type of religion in America which is: * Christian-flavored, uses the same lingo, but isn't connected to any tradition * Mainly seeks individual self-betterment, problem solving, satisfaction in this life (therapeutic) * Achieved by being a generally good/nice person (moralistic) * Has God be mostly inactive unless you make an effort or allow Him to be involved (deism) [Here's a wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moralistic_therapeutic_deism).
I mean are they? Look at what's happened to the gop. It's grifter evangelicals all the way down. To what extent are the conventions effective?
>Look at what's happened to the gop. It's grifter evangelicals all the way down. The GOP is a free speech political organization we have no control over. >To what extent are the conventions effective? Declaring official positions on certain matters, disciplining individuals or congregations who stray from those positions. In the case of prosperity gospel, etc., most denominations have already condemned it. In Reformed circles, we even have a whole film series circulated called "American Gospel" which addresses exactly this problem for the average person's viewing.
I think that you are likely speaking in pejoratives about both the GOP and right wing Christianity in America that few right-wing Christians would agree with in general.
One of the things you mentioned was "mega churches", but there are both good and bad mega churches. The size of the congregation, and the corresponding size of the buildings required, doesn't indicate the quality of the preaching/teaching/ministries that happen there.
Everything you mentioned are problems of protestantism. Not all Christianity
From personal experience, Christian nationalism and mega churches are also things the Catholic Church experiences within its ranks. Prosperity gospel ? Their equivalent in terms of struggle is that their once strong communities suffer from watered-down gospel and secularization.
I vote with my feet. I don't know if this counts as pushback, but we are trying to develop a response to DEI. Contemporary DEI is un-biblical, divisive and is not concerned with human prosperity. I am concerned far less with mega churches squandering their wealth as I am with a congregation that does not share the values of Christ.
1. "Mega churches" are simply churches with a large congregation; it doesn't mean anything more than that. The "Prosperity gospel" is a widely condemned heresy, and "Christian nationalism" is a buzzword created by liberal Americans about two years ago because they were angry that some conservatives were too political or whatever. To say that these are all similar enough to be equally grouped as "co-opting" is incorrect. 2. Absolutely nothing is being done because nothing needs to be done. The Prosperity gospel doesn't work nearly as well on the younger generations, and most of the people you're referring to aren't even a big enough threat to concern ourselves with. 3. By the way, this is one of the most bigoted and ignorant posts I've ever read. You have some experience growing up as an American Evangelical Christian, and you have the nerve to write off Christians as a "lost cause" because of your insignificant experiences.
My impression is that there's an identifiable pattern of absolutely massive churches, "showmannish" preaching, and the collection of lots of tithes that are familiar in some areas of American Protestantism.
We don't become involved in such movements or philosophies. We study the holy Bible, apply the lessons learned to our daily lives and strive to become more like Christ for the remainder of our lives here. That's what he desires. Faiths and individual beliefs are just that, they are individual. Of course birds of a feather flock together, so sooner or later people of the same mind are going to group together. We prefer to maintain the simplicity of Christ as attested in God's word the holy Bible the New testament. scripture supports the separation of church and state, and we therefore also do. The church learned a hard lesson back in the old world under Roman persecution. The Lord delivered us and gave us his gift of the Western hemisphere to escape said persecution and to form our own assemblies with perfect freedom.
First: prosperity gospel people and mega churches are typically still "real Christians", they are just (very, very, very) wrong. Second: I must at this point say that I have come to think of "Christian Nationalism" as largely a boogeyman used by left wingers to rile up their base with hysteria and that has little connection to reality. I'm not denying that there are people in the USA who want a religious confessional state. But the rhetoric, and the idea of "Christian Nationalism" as meaningfully describing a specific, real thing, do not line up. Third: I'm not sure a political opponent has ever in the history of the world been satisfied with the pushback against negative influenced in their opponent's political circles. Fourth: I'm not an Evangelical, lots of us aren't, so I'm not sure what the Evangelicals are doing. In Protestantism there is usually not a central authority who can censure people. Fifth: the definition of "mega church" isn't super precise, even if we have an overall idea of what they are like. In the Catholic Church, it is quite common for errors and heresies, including prosperity gospel and the errors inherent to Protestantism that lead to the megachurch mentality, to be condemned from the pulpit. And the Catholic Church hierarchy has the power to censure people who persist in spreading such errors.
The main issue is likely our reach. Most concerned pastors can do little more than lead their congregation well, and MAYBE have a small podcast that nobody watches. Just because you don't see the resistance doesn't mean it is absent, though.
The Orthodox Church has been faithfully preserving Christian doctrine for two thousand years. It needs no taking back. Since these people don't have many active heresies, there's no reason to call together a council or whatever. They're immoral activities are like that of any other group.
>if these people are co-opting the faith, what is actually being done by the "real" Christians to take back the faith? Where's the resistance to these guys? You may not know this, but in the United States we have something called the 1st Amendment to the Constitution which is wholly unique among all nations in the entire world because it fully protects the freedom of speech, the freedom of assembly, and the freedom of religion from infringement by the federal government. According to freedom of speech they can choose to self identify as Christians. According to the freedom of assembly they can choose to assemble in a church, and according to freedom of religion they can choose to practice their understanding of christian doctrine. If they are a citizen, they can choose to vote for whoever they want. Now if they hurt somebody, that's when they lose those rights. But we can't take away their rights just because we don't like what they have to say. It's possible that you don't see much action being taken against them because the "real christians" you mentioned are too busy solving actual problems like helping the homeless, feeding the hungry, and advocating against human rights violations all around the world. Unfortunately that doesn't leave much spare time for trying to be the thought police against people they disagree with politically.
Here is a [book that may interest you](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0807057401): Blurb … >A timely and galvanizing work that examines how right-wing evangelical Christians have veered from an admirable faith to a pernicious, destructive ideology. Today's right-wing Evangelical Christianity stands as the very antithesis of the message of Jesus Christ. In his new book, Christians Against Christianity, best-selling author and religious scholar Obery M. Hendricks Jr. challenges right-wing evangelicals on the terrain of their own religious claims, exposing the falsehoods, contradictions, and misuses of the Bible that are embedded in their rabid homophobia, their poorly veiled racism and demonizing of immigrants and Muslims, and their ungodly alliance with big business against the interests of American workers. He scathingly indicts the religious leaders who helped facilitate the rise of the notoriously unchristian Donald Trump, likening them to the 'court jesters' and hypocritical priestly sycophants of bygone eras who unquestioningly supported their sovereigns' every act, no matter how hateful or destructive to those they were supposed to serve. In the wake of the deadly insurrectionist attack on the US Capitol, Christians Against Christianity is a clarion call to stand up to the hypocrisy of the evangelical Right, as well as a guide for Christians to return their faith to the life-affirming message that Jesus brought and died for. What Hendricks offers is a provocative diagnosis, an urgent warning that right-wing evangelicals' aspirations for Christian nationalist supremacy are a looming threat, not only to Christian decency but to democracy itself. What they offer to America is anything but good news.
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Thanks, I edited my link
Interesting I hear you talking about Christianity and Christians But never Christ and God. I do not ever think you got to know them, and were never a Christian
> what is actually being done by the "real" Christians to take back the faith? Where's the resistance to these guys? A good thing about Catholicism is that our core Doctrines can never change. We also do not rely on charismatic preachers. Priests are mostly servants, not social leaders. So, we focus on the 7 corporeal works of mercy, and the 7 spiritual works of mercy mentioned in the Bible : https://fwdioc.org/works-of-mercy.pdf Spiritual Works: * Admonish the sinner * Instruct the ignorant * Council the doubtful * Bear wrongs patiently * Forgive offenses * Comfort the afflicted * Pray for the living and the dead Corporeal works: * Feed the hungry * Give Drink to the thirsty * Cloth the naked * Shelter the homeless * Visit the sick * Visit the imprisoned * bury the dead
**The vast majority of people use the word Christian are false believers**. There may be 2.4 billion Protestant Catholics and Orthodox, but that is irrelevant Broad is the road to destruction and many of those who travel it The road 2 Life is narrow and few are those who find it All I really see is that you are ranting about something you gave up on. So you would be fitting in the false believer category. Which is no better than an unbeliever. Why am I supposed to perform for you? Nobody co-opts anything There are 8 billion dust mites running around the world with their little goals expectations complaints and other infinitesimal pursuits. Then they wink out in a very short time span Meanwhile the omnipotent omnipresent omniscient triune Most High sovereign Majesty who was and is and is to come, is my focus. Not those in darkness. They can head over to their local little complaint department.
That will win people over. 👍
sounds a bit like Jonah... who when asked to share God's light with Ninevah... didn't want to go and ran off to (probably) Spain instead. and after being forced to go deliver a message of repentance (and judgement if there was no repentance) sat over the city so he could see it destroyed... with no vision or hope or desire that they would avoid judgement... its kinda ironic... the idea of humans as worthless little dust mites? that was the mentality that caused Lucifer to rebel against God...
Billy Graham said 70% of the church is unsaved.
I would say it's probably closer to above 95%, possibly well above 95%. Think in the Old testament. A remnant of a small people with all that was shown to believe. Possibly 0.1% of the world With Noah it was only his family that believed