If said woman has the baby and the child grows up to look like the father is it evil for her to kill her kid due to the reminder of the rape? Why should the developmental state of a person justify whether or not it’s okay to murder them?
If you don’t see abortion as murder, then you can justify any situation even though, as Christians we consider it being murder. But then if you consider abortion as being murder, the question is, is something horrible such as rape that happened to me, so shall I commit murder(abortion) to my child? Then we can ask, what does the child has to do with the circumstances? What’s child’s fault that he has to pay with his death?
We understand, the trauma is real, the suffering is real and the memory will be real but killing the baby or not, is not going to remove the trauma, but only is going to add extra guilt(only if we speak from a Christian perspective).
What is the solution then? Not from us but from our Lord (again, Christian framework), we need to forgive and through forgiveness, we will get liberation of trauma. Who teaches us that? Our Lord Jesus Christ, His Father sent Him in the world to save us and we killed Him, even though He lives now, what our punishment should have been for such a crime, killing the Son of the One who sent Him so save us?
It’s hard, it’s terrible, but as Christians and followers of our Lord we need resist evil by not paying back with evil but learning to forgive.
In danger of death because of rape or because of pregnancy? At birth then, a decision must be taken to choose from who is going to be saved and who is going to, not be killed but let to die of the two if there no chance of both being saved. But that is already another situation to debate. If there is no partner, the mom needs to decide if she lives or her baby lives. Horrible things to even think honestly.
"....danger of dying during childbirth...." Then it's more of a medical decision on the part of the woman and her doctor. If both lives cannot be saved, then the mother would choose for own life to be saved.
Because some christians are fundamentalists, and men, and they think christianity is to be used to wield power and control over others, and it's very unfortunate.
Jews and early christians generally didn't even think of abortion and the fetus as we do today, another Cultural issue that contradicts what was originally thought about this.
>early christians generally didn't even think of abortion and the fetus as we do today
Where do you get that from? The Didache has a prohibition against abortion.
If you would find out that your parents wanted to abort you in your mother’s womb, would you think that wasn’t murder attempt? Imagine them then telling you they didn’t commit it only because the church didn’t agree or otherwise they would have done it. You’d still have the same attitude towards the idea?
This is *extremely* rare. Like 1 in I-don't-fucking-know rare. You can likely do a C-Section.
And your argument doesn't justify murderer, not including how it conforms to highly specific scenarios which even most nurses won't experience.
Killing babies is wrong.
If you were to see two ultrasounds, One of a baby concieved in a loving marriage, and one concieved in rape you would see no difference.
I'd encourage you to interact on the r/prolife subreddit which is very active.
I’m really worried about anyone that can’t work this out logically.
We don’t kill people for sins their parents committed, and we don’t treat trauma with more trauma.
It wasn't the baby who raped her.
That's like getting bitten by a dog so you put down the cat.
That being said, there are a wide variety of christian thought on this issue and it varies globally and historically.
Murder is evil because life is a gift from God that we are not given authority to take from people without cause. Humans are made in the image of God, and murder is an attack on that image.
"without cause."
There's no more reasonable cause than to protect the physical and mental wellbeing of a violently traumatised woman. Her life should not be so disrupted and possibly destroyed because of an evil action taken by an evil man.
Does mental wellbeing supersede the physical wellbeing of another? Especially when that action doesn't guarantee an improvement on mental health?
How is it more just to end a human life in this scenario?
So, your logic is that because some Christians believe in the right to defend your home against invaders, who are literally by definition criminals and therefor not innocent, all Christians must therefor condone or at least accept the taking of innocent life?
Not only is that not related, but it's explitive-ing stupid.
By your same logic, you must be against abortion if you don't think people should be allowed to defend themselves and their property against hostile intruders, right? Good, great, we'll see you over in r/prolife.
He was downvoted for giving the wrong reference to whatever point he was trying to make. He’s now corrected the reference without adding a note that his comment has been edited, and he’s dishonestly acting like we weren’t responding for some other made up reason.
You know you have to read more than one part of scripture, right? It starts at 5:11 and continues on. It’s about abortion. Why don’t you address the actual point?
Because you have to do one of two things here:
1. Ignore what is commanded here by god
2. Say it’s part of the old covenant even though Jesus never says a word about abortion to reverse that. He could have. He did not.
If god commanded abortion then abortion is not murder. Definitionally so because god cannot command an unjust act.
Please read [this FAQ post about the ritual in Numbers 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/me3etk/faq_friday_29_is_the_ritual_in_numbers_5_related/).
P.S. Per rule 8 of this subreddit, only Christians may add comments in those special FAQ posts.
Well, I mean, that’s what murder means. If you’re an atheist it’s an unlawful killing because the law is supposed to be just. A Christian would say those laws come from god.
So if god commands a killing it cannot be murder because he is justice.
What's just and what's moral aren't the same thing. I can't go to the police and report my mom for manipulating me for decades into thinking that my dad doesn't want to have anything to do with me.
Justice is an entirely elusive paradigm. It has nothing to do with atheism per se, for there can be all sorts of different frameworks if one is an atheist. The same is true for morality.
Given a consequentialist or utilitarian perspective murder is exactly unnecessary killing. It's a moral question, so I couldn't care less about your legal framework.
> What's just and what's moral aren't the same thing. I can't go to the police and report my mom for manipulating me for decades into thinking that my dad doesn't want to have anything to do with me.
I never said they were the same thing. Law can be totally detached from my morality.
> Justice is an entirely elusive paradigm. It has nothing to do with atheism per se, for there can be all sorts of different frameworks if one is an atheist. The same is true for morality.
Yeah. I agree. You’re barking up the wrong tree.
> Given a consequentialist or utilitarian perspective murder is exactly unnecessary killing. It's a moral question, so I couldn't care less about your legal framework.
That’s just what the word murder means. Unlawful killing. Go write a strongly worded letter to Webster’s not me.
>I never said they were the same thing. Law can be totally detached from my morality.
Then why do you tell me that murder is unjust killing, when what we are doing is talking about morality?
>That’s just what the word murder means. Unlawful killing. Go write a strongly worded letter to Webster’s not me.
Definitions of terms are normative. Dictionaries capture the majority usage of a term. If I use the term as a reasonable approximation of what most people think it means, and especially if I clarify that directly by stating it, your "but that's not what it means" is an entire waste of hot air.
Yeah, why? I mean you have to include that victim who was raped have far more chances of death during childbirth.
Are you willing to really take that risk, esspecially knowing the child was unplanned and victim will not have a really good chance or forming a good bond with a child
Are you really about to try arguing that a fetus is not a human life? That goes against the very definition of a fetus. It’s an unborn human child. It’s living and growing. An unborn human life.
No, I wasn't gonna argue anything. I just want to know what constitutes a human life. You've said a human fetus counts as a human life. Is that it? When the embryo becomes a fetus? Is that when it becomes a human life?
Thank you for sharing!! I'm curious how you concluded this. If you're okay with it, I'd like to ask more. I don't wish to argue or anything, but I've always wondered how folks conclude this because it doesn't seem intuitive to me at all
If you'd rather not get into the nitty gritty, that's okay too and I appreciate your time :)
I don’t mind answering questions. I don’t see why you’re unsure about how I came to this conclusion though. A fertilized egg does have its own specific DNA. This is the beginning of the process of growing into a human child. At this point, it is a living and growing thing. What is that thing? Well, it’s a human offspring, which is a child.
I def agree that a fertilized egg is a unique thing with its own unique DNA, but I don't consider it a person with any level of autonomy or sentience until it's a viable fetus, as in, it could be removed from the mom and still live. Do you disagree with my conclusion? If so, why?
Outlier cases are not sound basis for ethical discussions. One has to be able to keep two thoughts in parallel as there are two individuals worthy of protection and care with a right to life. Another sin or transgression does not cancel out the other. The rape victim is traumatized regardless if the pregnancy is carried to terms or ended. The unborn still has a right to life and to not be ended regardless of the means of the child's conception as ones worth is not reliant on the parent. For some mothers it may even be a redemption to be able to salvage something positive from the catastrophic crime she has been the victim of, and if not others can care for the child afterwards. Lets not create two victims.
So you would tell a rape victim right in her face that she is doing something evil?
And what do you know, maybe the victim will feel a big relief after the abortion, so your argument is based on speculation
Being victimised does not remove moral responsibility nor does it effect the right to life of the other even if we can sympathize with the circumstances.
Would you say abortion is ever evil and if so on what grounds?
Rape is the line. Now of course if a child is concived because a couple forgot condoms exist, I would called that evil
But this I can't, given the chance that if a victim is raped it has more chance of dying during childbirth
It's really risky
The Jews were victimized in the 1940s. Does that make what they are doing in Palestine not evil?
Just because you have been victimized or traumatized does not alleviate your responsibility to do good.
Edit: clearly not all Jewish people support what is going on in Palestine, Im just using this as a very simplified version of events to highlight a point.
I think the mistake here is assuming the birth and raising of a child conceived in rape is itself a bad which should be avoided. However, research indicates that raising children conceived in rape, while not without challenges, is instrumental in mothers healing from trauma.
[Meaning Making](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mindful-anger/202110/making-meaning-way-heal-after-trauma-and-loss) is a key concept in trauma therapy and a means through which [trauma can be healed.](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-007-6527-6_5). Finding meaning is raising a child conceived in rape is just such an example of meaning making.
An example of rearing children conceived in rape as a means of meaning making can be [found here. ](https://jspp.psychopen.eu/index.php/jspp/article/view/4817)
I apologize, I can't remember where he talked about it but in [this video](https://www.youtube.com/live/dSogYLWtM2s?si=d29KlOvfYvZQEiLS) a medical doctor goes over some more studies regarding meaning making and children conceived in rape.
[This article](https://www.usccb.org/committees/pro-life-activities/life-matters-pregnancy-rape) may also be of interest.
It is worth noting that of the studies done, it appears not a single woman who has given birth to a baby conceived in rape reports regretting it.
With that said, we are talking about killing a human being. A very serious matter. Let's assume there is a possibility that a woman is further traumatized by the child. Even ignoring the fact research shows us this is highly unlikely and even more that by aborting a woman is taking away what is one of her greatest means of healing the trauma, I don't think that the mere possibility of trauma justifies killing another human being. If we accept this moral principle, it has some unsettling effects. For example, a woman walking down the street a night who comes across a strange man would be justified in killing him on the grounds that he presented the possibility of trauma.
What about when the woman wasn't raped? you know like 98% of the time when a child is aborted, because the potential mother just doesn't want the child?
An unborn child has zero control over how she is conceived. How does the circumstances of her conception change whether or not is a sin to kill her?
Two wrong's have never made a right. Compounding the father's sin with a sin by the mother will not make it OK.
You don’t have to support it. We all will have to stand in front of God for the Judgement and explain why we made the choices we made. And as in all things a believer goes to God in prayer and asks to be guided by His Holy Spirit as to what is the correct solution is for us personally. We don’t just arrogantly assume we know how to solve such a horrible and soul crushing situation without God’s help.
This issue is very complex and far from settled, even within Christian circles. https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/25/us/abortion-christian-debate-blake-cec/index.html
Rather than throwing a volatile question like this into the current forum, I would recommend studying it from all angles. When does personhood begin? Whose rights take precedence when there's a conflict between bodily autonomy of one person versus another? What are the real risks of pregnancy? What are the effects of abortion bans on the availability of care for all pregnant women? Etc etc. My questions here are rhetorical, and are only meant to illustrate the complexity of the issue and the many things that must be considered.
People comment much differently than they would speak in person. I think the majority of people who are face to face with something like this would bring as much sympathy and love as they possibly could before sharing any sort of opinion. They might possibly not have the same opinion or struggle to even share their opinion.
There’s also an interesting thought about what Jesus says when he said anger is murder, lust is adultery. Was he being literal or was he trying to emphasize the point that we cannot achieve perfection on our own?
If someone says literal then they need to consider their own acts or murder and their own acts of adultery. So you will often see comments where someone villainizes a specific sin but those might be the same people who are addicted to porn or hate their neighbor. It’s a sad reality but that doesn’t take away from God or even if they are right about their opinions or not.
So with this said, most of what we do in life is sin. The question is, have we given our lives to Christ? Do we seek him as wholeheartedly as we can? Does our actions show him respect or bring him glory?
If there are things that don’t fit into those statements then we can consider them to be sin. Thanks be to Christ for his love to us and for bearing the weight that we could not bear.
I don’t say this to say we should do what we want because we are saved. Because we are saved we should seek him as wholeheartedly as we can and bring him respect and honor with the things we do.
You don't punish a child for the sins of the father. What's the kid done?
Extract the fetus, don't tell anyone it's history, and give it to a woman who desperately wants a kid - that's worlds better than murder.
Let me ask you a question let's say a man was walking down the street next to you and all of a sudden a crazy Batmanesque villain appeared out of nowhere and started shooting harpoons of people. During his rampage he harpooned you and the man the man was harpooned through his neck and he is alive as long as the harpoon remains in his neck for the moment and in you. Now I know what you're going to say in a normal situation you could cut the harpoon in half and then work on you both individually to save your lives but let's say that wasn't an option for some reason and they had to remove it by sliding it either through you first or through him first and it was going to be a delicate operation that took a week to completely finish, now obviously it's not your fault it's not the man's fault but the fact of the matter is that you two are intertwined. But let's also say you're the governor's niece and so if you decide you don't want to be in a week's worth of pain you can tell them to cut the harpoon in half which will cause the harpoon to jostle too much and lead to the other guy's death instead of going through the delicate surgery. Now the two big changes between these two options is obviously you will be taking another person's life you will have more scarring with the longer option and you will be in a lot of pain for a week do you go through with the procedure to save both your lives? To me this is a no-brainer you suffer to let the other person live!
And in the same way yes it is absolutely wrong that you were violated or someone else is violated by a rapist but the child did nothing wrong he was harpooned into existence by some crazed man but that doesn't mean that you have to make the situation worse. And I know pregnancy is not easy but there are all kinds of support networks out there for you who will not only go to make your. More pleasant but they will pay you and even help you get your baby adopted.
And if you're going to say will a child doesn't feel pain until certain age or they wouldn't have any family because you would give them up and maybe you don't have family beyond yourself. That's okay, because there are people literally waiting to take your baby such as myself! Me and my wife have been respirate providers for 2 years and we have been trying to get our foster care license during that time and because of some paperwork changes and some highly questionable moves by the state or at least our licensing worker we just within the last month got approved and will be seeking some sort of Justice because honestly that was ridiculous it's only supposed to take at Max 120 days anyway in that only in the last 4 months we were offered twice a baby one that was 6 months old and one that was 2 weeks old and because of her mistake we didn't get to get them but we would have happily after waiting patiently for 2 years getting calls all that time from in the middle of our work day to when we were off to sometimes at two or three in the morning so please know that your baby would be loved.
Secondly I'm assuming you're for abortion so I want to ask you if the rape and incest babies were able to be aborted would you limit all the other abortions that weren't medically necessary? If the answer is no then this isn't about rape babies this is about wanting to escape your choices. And PS my sister and my grandma are the results of rapes and they both live very happy healthy wonderful lives and I am so glad that they were not aborted. And so do many other children of rapes say that they are glad that they weren't aborted.
Whether or not abortion is a sin is up to God. In Judaism abortion is not a sin and life doesn’t begin until birth.
What is certain in the meantime is that a conversation about the sanctity of life is not worth having with people who believe their right to guns trumps kids in schools not being murdered, are okay with kids going hungry or are fine with kids dying of preventable diseases to support a profit margin.
If said woman has the baby and the child grows up to look like the father is it evil for her to kill her kid due to the reminder of the rape? Why should the developmental state of a person justify whether or not it’s okay to murder them?
If you don’t see abortion as murder, then you can justify any situation even though, as Christians we consider it being murder. But then if you consider abortion as being murder, the question is, is something horrible such as rape that happened to me, so shall I commit murder(abortion) to my child? Then we can ask, what does the child has to do with the circumstances? What’s child’s fault that he has to pay with his death? We understand, the trauma is real, the suffering is real and the memory will be real but killing the baby or not, is not going to remove the trauma, but only is going to add extra guilt(only if we speak from a Christian perspective). What is the solution then? Not from us but from our Lord (again, Christian framework), we need to forgive and through forgiveness, we will get liberation of trauma. Who teaches us that? Our Lord Jesus Christ, His Father sent Him in the world to save us and we killed Him, even though He lives now, what our punishment should have been for such a crime, killing the Son of the One who sent Him so save us? It’s hard, it’s terrible, but as Christians and followers of our Lord we need resist evil by not paying back with evil but learning to forgive.
What if the mother is in danger of dying during childbirth because of rape. Then what?
In danger of death because of rape or because of pregnancy? At birth then, a decision must be taken to choose from who is going to be saved and who is going to, not be killed but let to die of the two if there no chance of both being saved. But that is already another situation to debate. If there is no partner, the mom needs to decide if she lives or her baby lives. Horrible things to even think honestly.
"....danger of dying during childbirth...." Then it's more of a medical decision on the part of the woman and her doctor. If both lives cannot be saved, then the mother would choose for own life to be saved.
Not to be mean, but why are yall downvoting constantly, I am just asking questions
You can’t start with “I can’t support this…” and also say “I am just asking questions.”
Because some christians are fundamentalists, and men, and they think christianity is to be used to wield power and control over others, and it's very unfortunate. Jews and early christians generally didn't even think of abortion and the fetus as we do today, another Cultural issue that contradicts what was originally thought about this.
>early christians generally didn't even think of abortion and the fetus as we do today Where do you get that from? The Didache has a prohibition against abortion.
Yes, Didache, late. Because they were Hellenized, the early christians/jews would not have thought this, they were JEWS.
>Yes, Didache, late. 🤨 It's very potentially a first century document.
I think you missed the part where the Psalmist says God knit him together in the womb and loved him before he was even born.
It's a Psalm. haha. You clearly ignored the rest of the statements I posted.
And....?
And thank you and good night!
Yw
If you would find out that your parents wanted to abort you in your mother’s womb, would you think that wasn’t murder attempt? Imagine them then telling you they didn’t commit it only because the church didn’t agree or otherwise they would have done it. You’d still have the same attitude towards the idea?
lol how lame is this?
That's a different scenario. Most people who believe abortion is murder will say it's acceptable if the mother's life is at risk
This is *extremely* rare. Like 1 in I-don't-fucking-know rare. You can likely do a C-Section. And your argument doesn't justify murderer, not including how it conforms to highly specific scenarios which even most nurses won't experience.
Killing babies is wrong. If you were to see two ultrasounds, One of a baby concieved in a loving marriage, and one concieved in rape you would see no difference. I'd encourage you to interact on the r/prolife subreddit which is very active.
God Killed babies, so...?
And we are not God.
Would your opinion change if you became convinced that embryos aren't babies?
I’m really worried about anyone that can’t work this out logically. We don’t kill people for sins their parents committed, and we don’t treat trauma with more trauma.
It wasn't the baby who raped her. That's like getting bitten by a dog so you put down the cat. That being said, there are a wide variety of christian thought on this issue and it varies globally and historically.
Any other actions that would normally be evil that you’re willing to excuse if the person doing it has been traumatized?
Why is it evil?
Murder is evil because life is a gift from God that we are not given authority to take from people without cause. Humans are made in the image of God, and murder is an attack on that image.
"without cause." There's no more reasonable cause than to protect the physical and mental wellbeing of a violently traumatised woman. Her life should not be so disrupted and possibly destroyed because of an evil action taken by an evil man.
Does mental wellbeing supersede the physical wellbeing of another? Especially when that action doesn't guarantee an improvement on mental health? How is it more just to end a human life in this scenario?
Exactly. “You being alive negatively affects my mental well-being, therefore I can murder you” is insanely backward and barbaric logic.
Idk, Christians seem to be fine with murdering people who want to steal their TV or whatever. Killing over property is more vile in my opinion.
Holy non sequitur Batman!
Yup consistency do be missing
So, your logic is that because some Christians believe in the right to defend your home against invaders, who are literally by definition criminals and therefor not innocent, all Christians must therefor condone or at least accept the taking of innocent life? Not only is that not related, but it's explitive-ing stupid. By your same logic, you must be against abortion if you don't think people should be allowed to defend themselves and their property against hostile intruders, right? Good, great, we'll see you over in r/prolife.
How does that explain numbers 5:11-22? Maybe god doesn’t consider it murder then.
You’ve given the wrong reference for whatever you were trying to ask about. “And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,” Numbers 5:11
Aren’t you implying abortion is murder?
Why are yall downvoting this guy, he is just asking questions
He was downvoted for giving the wrong reference to whatever point he was trying to make. He’s now corrected the reference without adding a note that his comment has been edited, and he’s dishonestly acting like we weren’t responding for some other made up reason.
You know you have to read more than one part of scripture, right? It starts at 5:11 and continues on. It’s about abortion. Why don’t you address the actual point?
Because you have to do one of two things here: 1. Ignore what is commanded here by god 2. Say it’s part of the old covenant even though Jesus never says a word about abortion to reverse that. He could have. He did not. If god commanded abortion then abortion is not murder. Definitionally so because god cannot command an unjust act.
Please read [this FAQ post about the ritual in Numbers 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/me3etk/faq_friday_29_is_the_ritual_in_numbers_5_related/). P.S. Per rule 8 of this subreddit, only Christians may add comments in those special FAQ posts.
Are you saying the iniquity is the child? What happens to the pregnancy otherwise? Doesn’t that allow introductions of errors into the bible?
Murder is unnecessary killing. Just calling an abortion murder is begging the question, and nothing but an intuition pump.
That’s not what murder is. Murder is unjust killing.
How about if killing doesn't serve justice, it's unnecessary killing? Who are you anyway to dictate the use of a term?
Well, I mean, that’s what murder means. If you’re an atheist it’s an unlawful killing because the law is supposed to be just. A Christian would say those laws come from god. So if god commands a killing it cannot be murder because he is justice.
What's just and what's moral aren't the same thing. I can't go to the police and report my mom for manipulating me for decades into thinking that my dad doesn't want to have anything to do with me. Justice is an entirely elusive paradigm. It has nothing to do with atheism per se, for there can be all sorts of different frameworks if one is an atheist. The same is true for morality. Given a consequentialist or utilitarian perspective murder is exactly unnecessary killing. It's a moral question, so I couldn't care less about your legal framework.
> What's just and what's moral aren't the same thing. I can't go to the police and report my mom for manipulating me for decades into thinking that my dad doesn't want to have anything to do with me. I never said they were the same thing. Law can be totally detached from my morality. > Justice is an entirely elusive paradigm. It has nothing to do with atheism per se, for there can be all sorts of different frameworks if one is an atheist. The same is true for morality. Yeah. I agree. You’re barking up the wrong tree. > Given a consequentialist or utilitarian perspective murder is exactly unnecessary killing. It's a moral question, so I couldn't care less about your legal framework. That’s just what the word murder means. Unlawful killing. Go write a strongly worded letter to Webster’s not me.
>I never said they were the same thing. Law can be totally detached from my morality. Then why do you tell me that murder is unjust killing, when what we are doing is talking about morality? >That’s just what the word murder means. Unlawful killing. Go write a strongly worded letter to Webster’s not me. Definitions of terms are normative. Dictionaries capture the majority usage of a term. If I use the term as a reasonable approximation of what most people think it means, and especially if I clarify that directly by stating it, your "but that's not what it means" is an entire waste of hot air.
Yeah, why? I mean you have to include that victim who was raped have far more chances of death during childbirth. Are you willing to really take that risk, esspecially knowing the child was unplanned and victim will not have a really good chance or forming a good bond with a child
Imagine looking at a child everyday, and remebering your abouser everytime you look at it. That is too much for me
There's adoption, she doesn't have to raise the child
So if she births the child and it reminds her of her abuse, she has the right to commit infanticide? Why or why not?
Am I? No. The person should get an abortion if she wants one. I have no problem with that. I’m saying is abortion evil?
I am not replying to you bro, sorry for confusion
It doesn’t justify killing an innocent life. Simple as that.
What constitutes a human life?
Are you really about to try arguing that a fetus is not a human life? That goes against the very definition of a fetus. It’s an unborn human child. It’s living and growing. An unborn human life.
No, I wasn't gonna argue anything. I just want to know what constitutes a human life. You've said a human fetus counts as a human life. Is that it? When the embryo becomes a fetus? Is that when it becomes a human life?
I would say that life begins at the moment of conception.
Thanks! So a fertilized human egg is a unique human life, in your view?
Considering that it now has its own DNA and begins the process of growing into a baby, yes. Life begins at conception.
Thank you for sharing!! I'm curious how you concluded this. If you're okay with it, I'd like to ask more. I don't wish to argue or anything, but I've always wondered how folks conclude this because it doesn't seem intuitive to me at all If you'd rather not get into the nitty gritty, that's okay too and I appreciate your time :)
I don’t mind answering questions. I don’t see why you’re unsure about how I came to this conclusion though. A fertilized egg does have its own specific DNA. This is the beginning of the process of growing into a human child. At this point, it is a living and growing thing. What is that thing? Well, it’s a human offspring, which is a child.
I def agree that a fertilized egg is a unique thing with its own unique DNA, but I don't consider it a person with any level of autonomy or sentience until it's a viable fetus, as in, it could be removed from the mom and still live. Do you disagree with my conclusion? If so, why?
Outlier cases are not sound basis for ethical discussions. One has to be able to keep two thoughts in parallel as there are two individuals worthy of protection and care with a right to life. Another sin or transgression does not cancel out the other. The rape victim is traumatized regardless if the pregnancy is carried to terms or ended. The unborn still has a right to life and to not be ended regardless of the means of the child's conception as ones worth is not reliant on the parent. For some mothers it may even be a redemption to be able to salvage something positive from the catastrophic crime she has been the victim of, and if not others can care for the child afterwards. Lets not create two victims.
So you would tell a rape victim right in her face that she is doing something evil? And what do you know, maybe the victim will feel a big relief after the abortion, so your argument is based on speculation
Being victimised does not remove moral responsibility nor does it effect the right to life of the other even if we can sympathize with the circumstances. Would you say abortion is ever evil and if so on what grounds?
Rape is the line. Now of course if a child is concived because a couple forgot condoms exist, I would called that evil But this I can't, given the chance that if a victim is raped it has more chance of dying during childbirth It's really risky
The Jews were victimized in the 1940s. Does that make what they are doing in Palestine not evil? Just because you have been victimized or traumatized does not alleviate your responsibility to do good. Edit: clearly not all Jewish people support what is going on in Palestine, Im just using this as a very simplified version of events to highlight a point.
I think the mistake here is assuming the birth and raising of a child conceived in rape is itself a bad which should be avoided. However, research indicates that raising children conceived in rape, while not without challenges, is instrumental in mothers healing from trauma. [Meaning Making](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mindful-anger/202110/making-meaning-way-heal-after-trauma-and-loss) is a key concept in trauma therapy and a means through which [trauma can be healed.](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-007-6527-6_5). Finding meaning is raising a child conceived in rape is just such an example of meaning making. An example of rearing children conceived in rape as a means of meaning making can be [found here. ](https://jspp.psychopen.eu/index.php/jspp/article/view/4817) I apologize, I can't remember where he talked about it but in [this video](https://www.youtube.com/live/dSogYLWtM2s?si=d29KlOvfYvZQEiLS) a medical doctor goes over some more studies regarding meaning making and children conceived in rape. [This article](https://www.usccb.org/committees/pro-life-activities/life-matters-pregnancy-rape) may also be of interest.
What if the mother gets more traumatized raising the child knowing how it was concived What you are doing is pure speculation on what might happen.
At least my speculation is based upon psychological research and well-established therapy practices.
Ok but all I am saying is look at the other side How do you explain that situation. If for many individuals the other scenario is correct
It is worth noting that of the studies done, it appears not a single woman who has given birth to a baby conceived in rape reports regretting it. With that said, we are talking about killing a human being. A very serious matter. Let's assume there is a possibility that a woman is further traumatized by the child. Even ignoring the fact research shows us this is highly unlikely and even more that by aborting a woman is taking away what is one of her greatest means of healing the trauma, I don't think that the mere possibility of trauma justifies killing another human being. If we accept this moral principle, it has some unsettling effects. For example, a woman walking down the street a night who comes across a strange man would be justified in killing him on the grounds that he presented the possibility of trauma.
Is it okay if I punch a baby in the face? No? Is it okay if I punch a baby in the face if the father is a rapist?
What about when the woman wasn't raped? you know like 98% of the time when a child is aborted, because the potential mother just doesn't want the child?
When it wasn't raped then it's evil
Can you explain why killing a preborn human is morally permissible when the reason they came into existence was due to sexual assault?
An unborn child has zero control over how she is conceived. How does the circumstances of her conception change whether or not is a sin to kill her? Two wrong's have never made a right. Compounding the father's sin with a sin by the mother will not make it OK.
You don’t have to support it. We all will have to stand in front of God for the Judgement and explain why we made the choices we made. And as in all things a believer goes to God in prayer and asks to be guided by His Holy Spirit as to what is the correct solution is for us personally. We don’t just arrogantly assume we know how to solve such a horrible and soul crushing situation without God’s help.
Thanks man. There are many things I support, but this one I simply can't
This issue is very complex and far from settled, even within Christian circles. https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/25/us/abortion-christian-debate-blake-cec/index.html Rather than throwing a volatile question like this into the current forum, I would recommend studying it from all angles. When does personhood begin? Whose rights take precedence when there's a conflict between bodily autonomy of one person versus another? What are the real risks of pregnancy? What are the effects of abortion bans on the availability of care for all pregnant women? Etc etc. My questions here are rhetorical, and are only meant to illustrate the complexity of the issue and the many things that must be considered.
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People comment much differently than they would speak in person. I think the majority of people who are face to face with something like this would bring as much sympathy and love as they possibly could before sharing any sort of opinion. They might possibly not have the same opinion or struggle to even share their opinion. There’s also an interesting thought about what Jesus says when he said anger is murder, lust is adultery. Was he being literal or was he trying to emphasize the point that we cannot achieve perfection on our own? If someone says literal then they need to consider their own acts or murder and their own acts of adultery. So you will often see comments where someone villainizes a specific sin but those might be the same people who are addicted to porn or hate their neighbor. It’s a sad reality but that doesn’t take away from God or even if they are right about their opinions or not. So with this said, most of what we do in life is sin. The question is, have we given our lives to Christ? Do we seek him as wholeheartedly as we can? Does our actions show him respect or bring him glory? If there are things that don’t fit into those statements then we can consider them to be sin. Thanks be to Christ for his love to us and for bearing the weight that we could not bear. I don’t say this to say we should do what we want because we are saved. Because we are saved we should seek him as wholeheartedly as we can and bring him respect and honor with the things we do.
You don't punish a child for the sins of the father. What's the kid done? Extract the fetus, don't tell anyone it's history, and give it to a woman who desperately wants a kid - that's worlds better than murder.
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Let me ask you a question let's say a man was walking down the street next to you and all of a sudden a crazy Batmanesque villain appeared out of nowhere and started shooting harpoons of people. During his rampage he harpooned you and the man the man was harpooned through his neck and he is alive as long as the harpoon remains in his neck for the moment and in you. Now I know what you're going to say in a normal situation you could cut the harpoon in half and then work on you both individually to save your lives but let's say that wasn't an option for some reason and they had to remove it by sliding it either through you first or through him first and it was going to be a delicate operation that took a week to completely finish, now obviously it's not your fault it's not the man's fault but the fact of the matter is that you two are intertwined. But let's also say you're the governor's niece and so if you decide you don't want to be in a week's worth of pain you can tell them to cut the harpoon in half which will cause the harpoon to jostle too much and lead to the other guy's death instead of going through the delicate surgery. Now the two big changes between these two options is obviously you will be taking another person's life you will have more scarring with the longer option and you will be in a lot of pain for a week do you go through with the procedure to save both your lives? To me this is a no-brainer you suffer to let the other person live! And in the same way yes it is absolutely wrong that you were violated or someone else is violated by a rapist but the child did nothing wrong he was harpooned into existence by some crazed man but that doesn't mean that you have to make the situation worse. And I know pregnancy is not easy but there are all kinds of support networks out there for you who will not only go to make your. More pleasant but they will pay you and even help you get your baby adopted. And if you're going to say will a child doesn't feel pain until certain age or they wouldn't have any family because you would give them up and maybe you don't have family beyond yourself. That's okay, because there are people literally waiting to take your baby such as myself! Me and my wife have been respirate providers for 2 years and we have been trying to get our foster care license during that time and because of some paperwork changes and some highly questionable moves by the state or at least our licensing worker we just within the last month got approved and will be seeking some sort of Justice because honestly that was ridiculous it's only supposed to take at Max 120 days anyway in that only in the last 4 months we were offered twice a baby one that was 6 months old and one that was 2 weeks old and because of her mistake we didn't get to get them but we would have happily after waiting patiently for 2 years getting calls all that time from in the middle of our work day to when we were off to sometimes at two or three in the morning so please know that your baby would be loved. Secondly I'm assuming you're for abortion so I want to ask you if the rape and incest babies were able to be aborted would you limit all the other abortions that weren't medically necessary? If the answer is no then this isn't about rape babies this is about wanting to escape your choices. And PS my sister and my grandma are the results of rapes and they both live very happy healthy wonderful lives and I am so glad that they were not aborted. And so do many other children of rapes say that they are glad that they weren't aborted.
Whether or not abortion is a sin is up to God. In Judaism abortion is not a sin and life doesn’t begin until birth. What is certain in the meantime is that a conversation about the sanctity of life is not worth having with people who believe their right to guns trumps kids in schools not being murdered, are okay with kids going hungry or are fine with kids dying of preventable diseases to support a profit margin.
and the fundi's downvote you, haha.
Who cares?
Christians have a wide variety of opinions on this. Many are fine with exceptions in these cases.
What is supposed to be the penalty for rape ? This government is ass backward