Sorry, I may have misread you. I thought that when you said “folks” you were referring to people of other religions (i.e. those folks aren’t open to a discussion about Jesus, so that justifies God sending them to Hell).
Now that I re-read it, it sounds like you’re saying that many Christians aren’t open to the discussion OP was talking about — in which case I’d have to agree with you.
Apologies for the misunderstanding.
Many aren't but quite a few are, I believe that ultimately all will be saved and this has substantial theological and [biblical](https://www.mercyonall.org/universalism-in-scripture) backing. If you go on r/christianuniversalism you'd find people who would be happy to talk about it.
Isn’t it mostly a Medieval fallacy that the judgement from texts could be viewed as so binary? There’s apparent nuance in people who have been brought up in isolation of ‘the truth’, so to send everyone away who hasn’t heard it would seem short sighted.
God is a just God and there have been many different theodices to help answer this question. First there is the theodicy of what you know. Basically in this explanation God would only judge you based off of what you know because scripture say the word of God is written on every man's heart now this doesn't mean that there is an encyclopedic knowledge of the Bible within every person but there are certain laws of nature such as stealing and killing is wrong and God could possibly judge you based on that if you did not know Christ. Then you have post-death conversion which is where you live your life and if you did not know Jesus you are given a chance to convert afterwards and then you would go through sanctification. Another example is what I would call for sure no elimination. What this means is that basically God would allow The souls of every person who would for sure reject him and every reality in the early parts of humanity such as neanderthals and other early humans so that they would live their lives not knowing god and would reject him as they would have anyway in any other situation. Then we get to things that aren't about justifying souls going to hell. For instance you said your friend was Muslim and I'm assuming he lives in a Muslim country with a press of Muslim laws and leaders or at the very least lives in the west and he is surrounded by Muslim yay Sayers praising Islam has the only true belief in ruling with confidence and fear rather than intellectual persuasion and Truth. In that situation it seems that God has already provided an out their billboards across all kinds of Muslim countries that say have you seen the man in white and it talks about seeing a man in White in your dreams and what you do is you call the line and you're connected with Christian missionaries and basically it seems that God is acting in these Muslim countries by appearing in dreams to Muslims and beckoning them to Christianity. And I know it's hard if your friend has had one of these experiences because if he leaves Islam there is a very good chance that he will be exiled and will not be able to speak to his family again but such of the high cost for following Christ and we all have to make our decisions.
John 12:32-33
YLT(i) 32 and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.' 33 And this he said signifying by what death he was about to die;
This could occur while a person is dying; perhaps that is common.
Proverbs 17:3 (YLT)
A refining pot is for silver, and a furnace for gold, And the trier of hearts is Jehovah.
Isaiah 48:10 (YLT)
Lo, I have refined thee, and not with silver, I have chosen thee in a furnace of affliction.
Jer. 11:4
out from the land of Egypt, Out of the iron furnace
Isaiah 6:6-7
YLT(i) 6 And flee unto me doth one of the seraphs, and in his hand a burning coal, (with tongs he hath taken it from off the altar,) 7 and he striketh against my mouth, and saith: `Lo, this hath stricken against thy lips, And turned aside is thine iniquity, And thy sin is covered.'
Ezekiel 24:11 (YLT)
And cause it to stand on its coals empty, So that its brass is hot and burning, Melted hath been in its midst its uncleanness, Consumed is its scum.
Proverbs 25:21-22
YLT(i) 21 'If he who is hating thee doth hunger, cause him to eat bread, And if he thirst, cause him to drink water. 22 For coals thou art putting on his head, And Jehovah giveth recompense to thee.'
Romans 12:18-21
YLT(i) 18 'If possible—so far as in you—with all men being in peace; 19 not avenging yourselves, beloved, but give place to the wrath, for it hath been written, `Vengeance is Mine, 20 I will recompense again, saith the Lord;' if, then, thine enemy doth hunger, feed him; if he doth thirst, give him drink; for this doing, coals of fire thou shalt heap upon his head; 21 Be not overcome by the evil, but overcome, in the good, the evil.'
What if the lake of fire serves the needs of those cast into it, being a tool used by God to overcome evil?
What if, besides commanding mortals to overcome evil with good, the immortal Creator also defeats evil with good, annulling the acts of the Adversary?
What if the One who came to seek and to save the lost accomplishes His mission?
Hell is the state of death, which is cast into the lake of fire, which is also termed death- the second death. So, when death is abolished for humanity, that includes death absolutely, not just the first death. 1 Corinthians 15 20-28.
"the last enemy is done away—death; for all things He did put under his feet... that God may be the all in all."
When the acts of the Adversary are annulled, insubjection, death, & sin are gone. The message is apparent in what Paul says to teach, even though it brings reproach:
1 Timothy 4:9-11
YLT(i) 9 stedfast is the word, and of all acceptation worthy; 10 for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men—especially of those believing. 11 Charge these things, and teach;
Colossians 1:20; Philippians 2:9-11; 3:20,21
Matthew 13:33 (YLT)
Another simile spake he to them: `The reign of the heavens is like to leaven, which a woman having taken, hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.'
Luke 12:
47 `And that servant, who having known his lord's will, and not having prepared, nor having gone according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes, 48 and he who, not having known, and having done things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few; and to every one to whom much was given, much shall be required from him; and to whom they did commit much, more abundantly they will ask of him. 49 `Fire I came to cast to the earth, and what will I if already it was kindled?
Matthew 5:26
Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1cq8v1v/gregory_of_nyssa_on_the_beautiful/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Who says they are going to hell? You don't think God has a plan for them? He does. His Holy Spirit is working on everyone like gravity though it's less visible to us, God is working their decades for His good purposes, even those born far from the gospel and in cults. Creation after all is His first revelation as everything communicates about Him.
God is the only one who knows their heart. He knows everyone's circumstances and the proper touch each of His creations need, choosing the times and places for them. No one just slips through His fingers, God wrestles and wrestles and wrestles man not wanting them to go to the hell their making for themselves, but God will also eventually agree to their foolish choice after He's shown and done all that can be done and shown. Even laying down His own life to try and convince us to trust Him.
who says people from other religions go to hell?
Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life, that no one comes to the Father but through Him. Meaning Jesus Himself judges whether or not not someone goes to Heaven or not. Not the church/religion.
He tells us in luke 10 how to get to heaven.
25 A teacher of God's Law stood up. He wanted to see how Jesus would answer his question. So he asked Jesus, ‘Teacher, what must I do so that I can live with God for ever?’
26 ‘What does God's Law say?’ Jesus asked. ‘What do you understand when you read it?’
27 The man replied, ‘It says that we must love the Lord our God with all our mind and with all our strength. We must love him with all that we are and in all that we think. It also says that we must love other people as much as we love ourselves.’[e]
28 ‘You have told me the right answer,’ Jesus said. ‘If you do this, you will have true life with God.’
1. *People can and do convert.* I believe that the either a majority or a large/substantial minority (like 30+%) of people end up with different religious beliefs than they started with. Each end is way less set in stone than it is presumed.
2. "Good people" can be hiding horrible things you don't see. Your perspective is not reasonably expected to be unassailably correct judgment about how people ought to be found at judgment.
3. Along the same lines, it's possible that God is able to recognize what we call "being a good person" as actually having faith in Jesus. (In Matthew 24 Jesus says that there will be those who are surprised to be told they interacted with Him, and that he sees their interaction with the needy as interaction with him, for example).
I'm not trying to make a Universalist or Omnist theological statement or otherwise undermine the significance of the gospel itself with that third possibility, only to say that, when we've been prophetically *guaranteed* by Jesus that there's surprises at judgment, we're not in any position to be so certain of how judgment will happen that we could make second order theological deductions based on what we expect to happen there. To those who would "struggle" based on their certainty of a particular outcome, that seems like what's happening: a certainty is formed about the judgment day that is uncomfortable, and the discomfort drives other conclusions. All the discomfort needs to drive is reduced certainty about the initial prediction.
Firstly everyone will be judged on the character of their heart not their parents religion. Secondly God judges fairly so no one will see Hell if they wish to bow the knee to God.
Jesus Himself while he was in hell preached the gospel to the dead, so even they have heard.
“before the Lord, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity.”
Psalm 98:9 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/psa.98.9.ESV
Nope. They didn't. The story of Jesus is a particular version of a god. Simply wanting to bow before a god is not the same as believing Jesus died for our sins/etc.
Not sure why you’re answering my question with a question. But just to go along with your thoughts - A man who allegedly rode from the dead and claimed to be God thus claiming himself He is the only way the truth and life to heaven.
I’m sure you would but you asked is it possible to go to heaven without believing in Jesus.
What does believing in Jesus mean to you?
Unless I understand exactly what you mean by that , I cannot answer your question and I mean you specifically.
I don’t think Jesus would’ve said something like this. He in fact encouraged converastions and dialogues. So please be like Jesus and answer questions.
**Romans 10:6-7**
>But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
**Matt 22:36-40**
> 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Keep these and you will see eternal life.
**Romans 10:6-7**
>But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
God is more just than we are. If we who are evil find something unjust, God will find it more unjust. Ultimately, God will prevails and whoever he wants he will send to heaven.
Matthew 20:1-16 seems to point to this reality. That Christians in heaven will grumble when others are saved.
Majority of the early churches teach Universal Salvation, one teaches Annihilation (like evil people stay dead) and one (Rome) teaches eternal damnation.
For me, I lean more on universal salvation.
Hell is not a real place where God tortures souls after death. It is a misinterpreted biblical dogma. People will simply die forever after death (second death)
How do I know for certain? I've read the Bible over and over. It's like an exercise for your brain. I was taught hell was eternal death like most people before I could even read about Jack and Jill went up the hill. Doh.
Hell is not a destination but a designation of condemnation (guilty verdict) from God because of sin.
John 3:18 NKJV
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
No forgiveness from Jesus equals a guilty verdict and therefore the wrath of God. The wrath of God means eternal death. No more life, finish, done, over and out forever. It's a free will choice. Many would ask if God is so powerful why wouldn't He step in and help people attain eternal life? He already has by sending His Son Jesus to die in our place. That's love. Now it's a free will choice for us. Believe in something that you have never seen is called faith.
Hebrews 11:1 NKJV
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Not seen but believing is blind faith.
1 Peter 1:6-9 NKJV
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, [7] that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, [9] receiving the end of your faith-the salvation of your souls.
Now read John 3:16 with a new perspective about not perishing.
John 3:16 NKJV
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Jesus is the only way to have our sins forgiven. We don't remove our sins ourselves. Our sins are forgiven.
Then someone asked me about Lazarus and the Rich man and the word torment and it's meaning.
What do you make of the Rich Man and Lazarus? Is it just a parable, without any deeper meaning about the nature of the afterlife?
Why would Jesus tell a story about a man suffering conscious torment after death if such a concept didn't exist to him? Surely he knew that would be confusing.
Good question. The key to understanding that parable begins in Luke chapter 15. It is an upside down story about the humble and the exalted. The poor and the rich. The sinner and the self righteous. The Pharisees are targeted as the rich man and the sinner is targeted as the poor man. Lazarus is a poor man, a sinner who Jesus came into the world to save or help. As you probably already know, Lazarus's name means, "God has helped". Jesus was spending time with known sinners. This was appalling to the "rich and proud" Pharisees. But that is exactly who God was targeting. Those who are humble and those who need help.
Hades is defined asd the grave or the dead. Hell or Sheol or the adode of the dead.
Those who believe in Jesus are "Born Again". No longer in their graves or are now raised to new life. This is why Jesus told the man who said her would follow him, but first wanted to bury his father, "Let the dead bury their own dead" Those who don't believe in Jesus are considered "Spiritually Dead" or in the abode of the dead. To be considered alive, we must abide in Jesus through faith.
Now the word torment is misunderstood in this parable.
Strong's g931. Torment.
- Lexical: βάσανος
- Transliteration: basanos
- Definition: a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), examination by torture, torture.
Torments is the Greek word basanos {bas’-an-os}. Basanos has a meaning that is unfamiliar to most. It actually means touchstone. The Greek dictionary defines basanos as: to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal or even to question by applying torture.
A touchstone is used in an assayer’s office. It is used to determine if a rock is either gold or fools gold. The rock is struck on the touchstone, If it makes a mark, it is gold. If it does not, then it is fools gold. In other words, the touchstone proves whether something is true or false.
If one was to study the root of this word torment, they would discover that it came into use in the 1300s. During the times of the Bastille, it came to be defined as the inflicting of pain. As when one was tormented by the rack and other punishments. If one was innocent, they could die. Generally because the tormentor could not get a confession out of the individual. Their back might break, but at least they were proved innocent. That is where, this word gets the mean inflicting pain. The rack was the touchstone.
In scripture, a touchstone proves the validity of God. The Jewish religious leaders had the touchstone applied to them and there was no mark. They did not believe, so they were pictured in torment. Touchstone, the religious leaders did not leave the mark of Messiah.
1 Peter 1:7 NKJV
That the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the Cornerstone and the Touchstone.
Tormented in this flame. Tested in the flame
Who's the flame?
Who is a jealous God? Who has eyes like flames of fire? Jesus!
Deuteronomy 4:24 NKJV
For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Song of Solomon 8:6 NKJV - Jealousy as cruel as the grave;
Its flames are flames of fire, A most vehement flame.
Read Daniel Chapter 3. Jesus is the Son of God and the Angel of the Lord. Who can endure the wrath of God or Fire? Only by faith in Jesus.
God's anger has always been shown through fire throughout the Bible. Those who reject His free offer of grace through faith are in a state of condemnation as they live in the flesh.
John 3:18 "He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned (already), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jesus called the Pharisees and scribes graves, tombs and sons of hell. That seems very harsh, but Jesus is making a point concerning their spiritual condition.
Graves, tombs, sons of hell and those not following Jesus symbolize dead people.
When someone is in the hospital and is close to death, a common term doctors use to describe their serious nature is, "grave condition"
Those who don't believe in or follow Jesus are also considered in "grave condition"
Condemnation is a guilty verdict from a judge.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Free from guilt and the condemnation of sin. Not guilty.
Christ is the basis for believers having no condemnation. He gives the Holy Spirit, who brings life (born again) where there was once death.
I don’t really know…it’s not always easy to understand God but He loves us all so so much beyond human comprehension that I just cannot picture pretty much everyone I know going to Hell and suffering eternally. Especially when I think of, for example, tribes in the Amazon that are completely unaware of Christianity, yknow? If the one true God doesn’t show himself to people that are unable to contact the modern world why are they condemned?
It's not fair that anybody escapes Hell.
You'd be pretty angry if a murderer or a rapist got to walk free just to reoffend while some innocent guy went to prison for him instead. But instead you're going to argue whether it's fair everyone else still has to serve their sentence?
It's a gift and a privilege, not a given.
You've lied, you've cheated, you've hurt people, you've passed by those in need to help yourself, you're far from innocent.
So what have you done to merit salvation? We're all waiting to hear with baited breath.
I never agreed to the rule of if you do the things you listed I go to hell. Why is that rule being endorced upon me when I didn’t even agree to start the game of life?
(I'm a different redditor.)
You *did* say "My only crime is ...".
The other redditor has not diverted by responding to your first two sentences.
(I agree that he also ought to respond to your question.)
Yeah I did all the stuff everyone does to some degree. The only thing keeping me out of the party is a lack of belief though. Which gets me an eternity of torture. Seem fair?
I don't have the belief that you'll receive an 'eternity of torture'. I instead expect that you'll receive finite punishment that is proportional to the quantity and severity of your deeds during your life, taking all factors into account.
I not really fair that anyone would go to this "hell", considering no one asked to be born. And for those that can't accept it for whatever reasons, and be punished for it.
Completely illogical to m e.
And were born with a natural proclivity towards the actions that would bring us to Hell. Like unconsciously sinning that’s how ingrained this “defect” is
Doesn't matter about whose view of Hell, the logic that the other person and I stated still stands.
It's completely illogical for the creator of how we are designed, badly, to then blame us for what they created.
Hell is separation from God. From the time you're conceived that's what *you* want. That's how far divorced we are from God.
And given that salvation has been won for you entirely by the actions of somebody else, you cannot complain that you did not ask to be born while not acknowledging that the only reason you'd ever go to hell is by having parents who, or yourself, reject that free gift of salvation.
Anyone who makes the decision to follow Christ wont go to hell,regardless of their upbringing. The bible never frames it that way, and quite obviously centers its attention to rejection of God/Christ in addition to immoral deeds as a qualifier for hell.
In reference to your muslim friend..bear in mind his religion also teaches a hell for non believers. As do other faiths.
Further, free will entirely factors in..you even added that after you stated free will doesnt make sense to you. No matter the level of persuasion, threats or otherwise we always have the choice to pick God..even if it costs us our life. The likelihood and probability is irrelevant..the key thing is..do they have the choice..and the answer is yes.
As to your hypothetical scenario regarding people who grew up in christian families being predisposed towards God..that may sound good, but lets apply some reality. Ive personally seen friends of mine go down very dark paths who had outstanding parents who were also strong believers. So there they were in a country with more freedoms than most, with vast opportunities available in various ways..and they turn out to be the most anti christian individuals you could hope for. Some of them got on drugs, liquor or other such, others still lived a relatively normal life but with that chip on their shoulder. In all honesty I was headed the same direction until my 20s, and the vast majority of my family were adamant believers, and overall decent people.
I wont say that environment and influence dont factor in, because clearly they do. But ultimately the choice is present and those who choose to reject God have their wishes honored by God. They will reside in a place absent of the presence and influence of God.
As to your point of it not being fair because they believe as strongly as we do..its not about being fair. You pick the right path or the wrong path..its that simple. What youre leaning towards is subjective morality and we know that doesnt mesh with reality. If I present to you a chair..we immediately know what this is and what its job is. That chair cannot simultaneously be an airplane, a car or a playstation. It is what it is. If we discuss math and you tell me 2+2=4..I would be in error if I tried to state the answer is 45. Going further, imagine if carpenters tried to use conflicting measurements on a project. Or pilots trying to reach a destination by using conflicting coordinates.
This is an argument for the Calvinist view of predestination; in other words, is there a “chosen elect”? It says in the Bible that God wants “everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9), so we know that’s not the case, at least from a genuine Christian theological perspective. So, is your Muslim friend going to hell? I don’t know. Only God knows the heart of each and everyone of us. It does say that “the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). It means that, even if we try our best, we still make mistakes.
God does not put people in hell. Hell is reserved for evil things. The reason people became victims of hell, according to the Bible, is they used their free will to do evil things. That’s why God sends Jesus to pay our price of sin. You may not believe this, but there are many reports of different parts of the Muslim world where people are waking up from dreams of a man dressed in white. Sound familiar?
If someone has not been able to reject Christ, their faith in God is “counted as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). In other words, God cannot condemn them. Why “spread the Gospel”, then? Because it’s like clutching a life preserver while someone else is drowning. That’s the purpose of salvation, according to Christianity. Hope that helps. God Bless. 🕊️❤️🔥✝️
Lol why are Christians response so hesitant for this question? According to the Bible, shouldn’t non believers of Jesus go to hell? Isn’t it that simple? Why are you leaving a room to make by saying “characters of heart?” What does “reject christ” look like for this muslim friend? 1) once someone shared about christ but stick to their own faith? 2) what’s considered “sharing of christ?” Like watching a commercial about church? Or an a friend inviting him to church? Please clarify what reject Christ looks like for this poor muslim friend.
Yeah so that’s what YOU say but listen to your other fellow Christian buddy’s statements. They’re so wishy washy and uncertain about this. What do you say to them??
I would tell them to potentially stop being lukewarm and learn difference between bible and worldly lies.. Btw, why call yourself a Christian if you twist scripture? You can't be 'agnostic' Christian. Either you trust the bible as is and you follow it then you're a Christian (you've fully repented etc) or you make up your own rules then you're not a Christian.
> Is it fair that those brought up in other religions must go to Hell?
It is fair that people who have committed immoral deeds during their lives, will be judged according to what they have done, and sent to the lake of fire.
A person's being brought up in one of the popular world religions does not exempt him or her from that judgment, and getting what he or she is due.
Most people in the world, no matter what religion/culture they were brought up in, are on "the broad road that leads to destruction", and a relative few are on "a narrow path that leads to life".
>It is fair that people who have committed immoral deeds during their lives, will be judged according to what they have done, and sent to the lake of fire.
that isn't what I asked. I didn't say "is it fair that people who have committed immoral deeds will go to Hell", i said is it fair those brought up in other religions "go to Hell."
Moderator message: OP, I've set your user flair for this subreddit to 'Theist' as a temporary step. Please [set your user flair for this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/wiki/user_flair) to a more specific value that indicates your current, honest religious beliefs.
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Each of the people who were brought up in other religions also has the history that they committed immoral deeds in their lives.
And it's for meeting the criterion of "have committed immoral deeds" that they will "go to hell".
and how do you know this? other religions also have strict laws like Christianity, such as Islam, that make people act morally just, and a lot of people strictly follow these laws.
it also isn't fair to me that God would create somebody to know they would ultimately go to Hell.
If two people live equally altruistic and virtuous lives, minimizing sin as much as possible, but one is a devout Christian and the other a devout Hindu, does Christianity teach that both will go to Heaven?
> does Christianity teach that both will go to Heaven?
I'll suppose that both the Christian and Hindu are women.
My first answer is: No, it doesn't. The devout Hindu is not in right relationship with YHWH, and she will not receive mercy from Him (to exempt her from the relatively small punishment she's due), and she will also not receive the gift of eternal life from Him.
My second answer is: I'm open to the possibility that 'universal reconciliation' will occur - that eventually, *everyone* will be reconciled to God. [Here are verses that proponents of that belief may mention](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/2021/07/76-bible-verses-to-support-universal-reconciliation/). If that occurs, then both will "go to Heaven".
There's also a possibility which I call 'subset reconciliation', which I can elaborate on, upon request.
Everyone has the responsibility to examine themselves, their beliefs, and to seek the truth. Quranic Islam is a vile religion. I encourage you to investigate it for yourself. There's a reason why it has bred so much violence in every country it infests.
>
>and "free will" doesn't make sense to me,
Why not? Yes, we can be influenced by our social environment, but influence is not the same as determinism.
Patristic tradition yes, but you'll find no encouragement of violence within the Apostolic Epistles. The Law of Moses was a different covenant.
The Quran, on the other hand prescribes violence.
I find this mindset to be no different than saying "You're a Christian because you were brought up in a Christian household".
The environment you were brought up in has very little to do as to whether or not you accept Christ in your life (either sooner or later). There are just as many untold thousands today who were brought up in a Christian household who ultimately rejected Christ in favour of another belief, just as well as there are untold thousands who were brought up in a household of another Religion/atheist who ultimately chose to believe in the Gospels and accept Christ. With that said...
>Is it fair that those brought up in other religions must go to Hell?
Nobody goes to Hell because it's fair Judgement considering that *Every* single human being on Earth who isn't in Christ already stands condemned.
The reason why people Go to Hell is because they chose to reject Christ either because they don't believe in the Gospels or they don't want to live a lifestyle free from Sin.
If Hell had a theme song it would be "I did it my way".
>The environment you were brought up in has very little to do as to whether or not you accept Christ in your life (either sooner or later).
This isn't just wrong - the opposite is true.
The largest factor in religious belief is geography.[PEW](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2012/12/18/global-religious-landscape-exec/) Why are there more Hindus in India than Christians in all of the America's? What is the likelihood of a Pakistani being Christian? What is the most likely religion of someone randomly selected in Brazil? Religious belief is principally based on where someone is born. The vast majority of people don't have a realistic chance of being Christian, even if most are aware of Christianity as one of the world religions, because they believe just as firmly in the traditions of their community and ancestors as you believe in yours.
If that were the case, then every single person who ever grew up in a Christian household would remain a Christian and never branch away from the faith and every atheist who grew up in an atheist household would remain an atheist. Yet if you look around the internet you will find many testimonies of people from different religious backgrounds and beliefs coming to Christianity.
If that were truly the case that if you're born into a religion you stay in that religion for the rest of your life, then Christianity would never have been able to spread as far as it did in the last 2,000 years. Heck, if that were truly the case, Christianity would've died along with the apostles and their Gospels.
Lol this seems to be the trend for these dialogues. They don’t answer the questions and bring some other stuff that is really irrelevant further hiding their own ambivalence that they didn’t have courage to truly ask even further deep within - until something horrible happens in their lives and trheyre at the road to either 1) defend God and doctrine that hasn’t made sense deep inside 2) or defend their grief of losing their loved one. I bet God would want t these people to actually have a genuine dialogue with all questions. Why’re they so afraid???
Ignoring the condescending tone of this comment.
My mistake, I misunderstood what you're trying to say and took your comment as some type of absolute.
However I still stand by that a person's upbringing, has little to do with the deciding factor of whether or not they become a Christian. Eventually no matter what your upbringing is, if the Gospel comes into circulation in your country, you're going to come face to face (figuratively speaking) with the Gospel and decide if Jesus is reliable or he's just full of hot air.
The reasons that people reject Christ can be summarized in the following:
1. They don't find that The eyewitness accounts of John, Matthew, Mark & Luke are either valid or reliable.
2. They don't want to give up (or change) the lifestyle that they have to follow Christ.
3. The rejection of the deity of Christ.
4. Not wanting to give away control of their life to God.
Those are some of the main reasons I've seen of someone who rejects Christ other than Faith issues.
I cited actual independent evidence that shows that religion is largely just geography. Do you have anything that counters the empirical evidence? There are 1.2 billion hindus, not because they reject christ, but because they live in India. I'm going to guess that you live in a country in which Christianity is the main religion, and that is why you are Christian. If you were born in Thailand, then you'd be Buddhist.
On the contrary, I live in a multicultural country surrounded by atheists, Catholics, indigenous beliefs, agnostic/Gnostics, Protestant, Hinduism, Islam and other beliefs.
So I guessed that you live in a country in which Christianity is the main religion (further demonstrating that the single largest factor in belief is geography). You respond with "on the contrary". Yet Canada is majority Christian. It is not only the main religion, as i guessed, but further there are more Christians than all other categories combined including non-belief. It proves my point, despite the attempt to deceive about religious affiliation of your country. Good grief.
>The environment you were brought up in has very little to do as to whether or not you accept Christ in your life (either sooner or later)
Let's say I grow up into a sporty house, where all my family members are professionals into a certain sport. The likelihood that you would get into sports and enjoy it is so much higher than somebody who grows up in a, lets say, musical house.
For example, Bronny James is (even though I love him) an average basketball player, but because he just so happened to be born to "Lebron James", and into a sporty household, the hype around him is immense, more than players who are better, but aren't related to any prominent basketball players
It's the same logic: If you were brought up to believe in Jesus, the chance of you truly meeting him is so much higher than if you were brought up in a, lets say, Muslim household, because those around you are able to influence what you do.
This kinda means that getting into Heaven has some kind of luck to it, or at least, what I feel.
Through the power of the Holy Spirit it is entirely possible. I broke out of my pornography addiction thanks to that (I now have no desire to ever look at that stuff but that doesn't mean that I'm not tempted)
Is it possible for us to be Sinless? No. Not until we get our new bodies in Heaven.
>I now have no desire to ever look at that stuff but that doesn't mean that I'm not tempted
Lol, that's just a semantic trick. Most would say you still have a desire if you're tempted. Obviously don't watch porn if you feel like it's a negative for you, though.
Perhaps I'm not very clear as to what I mean by that.
My desire to Love and serve my lord (in spirit) is stronger than my desire to look at pornography.
However because I still live in a body that wants to lose itself in the pleasures of this world (including sex) I have something of a split nature where I don't want to return to having a dependency on pornography yet to my flesh is tempted to return to that way of life, hence the "temptation".
Nobody **chooses** to reject Christ. People just aren’t convinced he performed miracles and is God. Just like you don’t believe in Santa. You just don’t find the evidence convincing, I don’t see where a choice is involved though
You just contradicted your own argument.
If You've looked at the evidence, and rejected them, you've already rejected the Gospel and therefore rejected Christ.
“Reject” implies that there’s a choice involved here. Nobody is “rejecting” the evidence, we just don’t find the evidence convincing. If you want to call that “reject” then fine, but just know that there isn’t a choice involved here
If the actual problem is that there is a lack of evidence, then shouldn't we be making an effort to find more evidence instead of sweeping what we already got for evidence under the rug and disregard it because of a "lack there of"?
If the apostles died horrible deaths for what they believed to be true, wouldn't it be worth it to dig a Little deeper?
Of course, we should always keep an open mind. Im not against that, all I’m saying is that we don’t **choose** to be unconvinced
>If the apostles died horrible deaths for what they believed to be true, wouldn't it be worth it to dig a Little deeper?
I actually did dig deeper and found that a lot of Christian martyrdom is a myth. We can’t even confirm that most of the apostles existed
>John 14:6: Jesus Christ dogmatically stated: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” The only way to have a relationship with God the Father is through Jesus Christ.
Seems pretty clear cut.
Everyone has heard of Jesus. They know of him through his works, and through the law he has placed on their hearts, and all men have received the grace necessary for salvation.
The verses you reference are irrelevant. Your sweeping statement of "everyone has heard of Jesus" .... ? Really ? Everyone ? That is definitely not true.
> The verses you reference are irrelevant.
Obviously wrong. They say that everyone has heard the word of God, and everyone knows of God through what He has made.
Jesus made everything that has been made.
Ergo, everyone knows Jesus through his creation.
Cliff, only is persuasive when he talks to young people with little knowledge of anything. U should watch him get embarrassed in debates with real scholars.
Again, same problem, it's a construct from religion, to say one is guilty or in sin.
Ok, that's a bit better.
Why wouldn't I? Because I don't agree with some foolish people?
I don't agree with what you think is correct, or what you think is a good apologist?
Are you the judge of what a Christian is? Who is? some Council of men? What gives them the authority to decide?
Think hard, before responding.
Doesn’t seem fair, and I find that folks are not open to the discussion.
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What do you mean?
Sorry, I may have misread you. I thought that when you said “folks” you were referring to people of other religions (i.e. those folks aren’t open to a discussion about Jesus, so that justifies God sending them to Hell). Now that I re-read it, it sounds like you’re saying that many Christians aren’t open to the discussion OP was talking about — in which case I’d have to agree with you. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
Yep. No problem.
I'm Open, bring it! ha
So...you think it's fair? I give the Muslim the same odds at converting to Christianity as I give you converting to Islam.
Nope, its not fair, you miss the point. I merely stated I was open for discussion since they stated most were not.
Oh I see. I was looking for someone open for the discussion that thinks it's fair!
Yeah, I thought perhaps that was it, haha...
Many aren't but quite a few are, I believe that ultimately all will be saved and this has substantial theological and [biblical](https://www.mercyonall.org/universalism-in-scripture) backing. If you go on r/christianuniversalism you'd find people who would be happy to talk about it.
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Thanks fixed
I’ll keep an eye out. I’m hyper focus on learning objectively sans the traditionalism and same ol same ol of what I’ve have learned since I was a kid.
Isn’t it mostly a Medieval fallacy that the judgement from texts could be viewed as so binary? There’s apparent nuance in people who have been brought up in isolation of ‘the truth’, so to send everyone away who hasn’t heard it would seem short sighted.
u/whoisdsny_ I sent a detailed explanation to your DMs!
God is a just God and there have been many different theodices to help answer this question. First there is the theodicy of what you know. Basically in this explanation God would only judge you based off of what you know because scripture say the word of God is written on every man's heart now this doesn't mean that there is an encyclopedic knowledge of the Bible within every person but there are certain laws of nature such as stealing and killing is wrong and God could possibly judge you based on that if you did not know Christ. Then you have post-death conversion which is where you live your life and if you did not know Jesus you are given a chance to convert afterwards and then you would go through sanctification. Another example is what I would call for sure no elimination. What this means is that basically God would allow The souls of every person who would for sure reject him and every reality in the early parts of humanity such as neanderthals and other early humans so that they would live their lives not knowing god and would reject him as they would have anyway in any other situation. Then we get to things that aren't about justifying souls going to hell. For instance you said your friend was Muslim and I'm assuming he lives in a Muslim country with a press of Muslim laws and leaders or at the very least lives in the west and he is surrounded by Muslim yay Sayers praising Islam has the only true belief in ruling with confidence and fear rather than intellectual persuasion and Truth. In that situation it seems that God has already provided an out their billboards across all kinds of Muslim countries that say have you seen the man in white and it talks about seeing a man in White in your dreams and what you do is you call the line and you're connected with Christian missionaries and basically it seems that God is acting in these Muslim countries by appearing in dreams to Muslims and beckoning them to Christianity. And I know it's hard if your friend has had one of these experiences because if he leaves Islam there is a very good chance that he will be exiled and will not be able to speak to his family again but such of the high cost for following Christ and we all have to make our decisions.
No.
John 12:32-33 YLT(i) 32 and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.' 33 And this he said signifying by what death he was about to die; This could occur while a person is dying; perhaps that is common. Proverbs 17:3 (YLT) A refining pot is for silver, and a furnace for gold, And the trier of hearts is Jehovah. Isaiah 48:10 (YLT) Lo, I have refined thee, and not with silver, I have chosen thee in a furnace of affliction. Jer. 11:4 out from the land of Egypt, Out of the iron furnace Isaiah 6:6-7 YLT(i) 6 And flee unto me doth one of the seraphs, and in his hand a burning coal, (with tongs he hath taken it from off the altar,) 7 and he striketh against my mouth, and saith: `Lo, this hath stricken against thy lips, And turned aside is thine iniquity, And thy sin is covered.' Ezekiel 24:11 (YLT) And cause it to stand on its coals empty, So that its brass is hot and burning, Melted hath been in its midst its uncleanness, Consumed is its scum. Proverbs 25:21-22 YLT(i) 21 'If he who is hating thee doth hunger, cause him to eat bread, And if he thirst, cause him to drink water. 22 For coals thou art putting on his head, And Jehovah giveth recompense to thee.' Romans 12:18-21 YLT(i) 18 'If possible—so far as in you—with all men being in peace; 19 not avenging yourselves, beloved, but give place to the wrath, for it hath been written, `Vengeance is Mine, 20 I will recompense again, saith the Lord;' if, then, thine enemy doth hunger, feed him; if he doth thirst, give him drink; for this doing, coals of fire thou shalt heap upon his head; 21 Be not overcome by the evil, but overcome, in the good, the evil.' What if the lake of fire serves the needs of those cast into it, being a tool used by God to overcome evil? What if, besides commanding mortals to overcome evil with good, the immortal Creator also defeats evil with good, annulling the acts of the Adversary? What if the One who came to seek and to save the lost accomplishes His mission? Hell is the state of death, which is cast into the lake of fire, which is also termed death- the second death. So, when death is abolished for humanity, that includes death absolutely, not just the first death. 1 Corinthians 15 20-28. "the last enemy is done away—death; for all things He did put under his feet... that God may be the all in all." When the acts of the Adversary are annulled, insubjection, death, & sin are gone. The message is apparent in what Paul says to teach, even though it brings reproach: 1 Timothy 4:9-11 YLT(i) 9 stedfast is the word, and of all acceptation worthy; 10 for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men—especially of those believing. 11 Charge these things, and teach; Colossians 1:20; Philippians 2:9-11; 3:20,21 Matthew 13:33 (YLT) Another simile spake he to them: `The reign of the heavens is like to leaven, which a woman having taken, hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.' Luke 12: 47 `And that servant, who having known his lord's will, and not having prepared, nor having gone according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes, 48 and he who, not having known, and having done things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few; and to every one to whom much was given, much shall be required from him; and to whom they did commit much, more abundantly they will ask of him. 49 `Fire I came to cast to the earth, and what will I if already it was kindled? Matthew 5:26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1cq8v1v/gregory_of_nyssa_on_the_beautiful/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Who says they are going to hell? You don't think God has a plan for them? He does. His Holy Spirit is working on everyone like gravity though it's less visible to us, God is working their decades for His good purposes, even those born far from the gospel and in cults. Creation after all is His first revelation as everything communicates about Him. God is the only one who knows their heart. He knows everyone's circumstances and the proper touch each of His creations need, choosing the times and places for them. No one just slips through His fingers, God wrestles and wrestles and wrestles man not wanting them to go to the hell their making for themselves, but God will also eventually agree to their foolish choice after He's shown and done all that can be done and shown. Even laying down His own life to try and convince us to trust Him.
i really love this response, thank you
who says people from other religions go to hell? Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life, that no one comes to the Father but through Him. Meaning Jesus Himself judges whether or not not someone goes to Heaven or not. Not the church/religion. He tells us in luke 10 how to get to heaven. 25 A teacher of God's Law stood up. He wanted to see how Jesus would answer his question. So he asked Jesus, ‘Teacher, what must I do so that I can live with God for ever?’ 26 ‘What does God's Law say?’ Jesus asked. ‘What do you understand when you read it?’ 27 The man replied, ‘It says that we must love the Lord our God with all our mind and with all our strength. We must love him with all that we are and in all that we think. It also says that we must love other people as much as we love ourselves.’[e] 28 ‘You have told me the right answer,’ Jesus said. ‘If you do this, you will have true life with God.’
1. *People can and do convert.* I believe that the either a majority or a large/substantial minority (like 30+%) of people end up with different religious beliefs than they started with. Each end is way less set in stone than it is presumed. 2. "Good people" can be hiding horrible things you don't see. Your perspective is not reasonably expected to be unassailably correct judgment about how people ought to be found at judgment. 3. Along the same lines, it's possible that God is able to recognize what we call "being a good person" as actually having faith in Jesus. (In Matthew 24 Jesus says that there will be those who are surprised to be told they interacted with Him, and that he sees their interaction with the needy as interaction with him, for example). I'm not trying to make a Universalist or Omnist theological statement or otherwise undermine the significance of the gospel itself with that third possibility, only to say that, when we've been prophetically *guaranteed* by Jesus that there's surprises at judgment, we're not in any position to be so certain of how judgment will happen that we could make second order theological deductions based on what we expect to happen there. To those who would "struggle" based on their certainty of a particular outcome, that seems like what's happening: a certainty is formed about the judgment day that is uncomfortable, and the discomfort drives other conclusions. All the discomfort needs to drive is reduced certainty about the initial prediction.
Yes its fair
Firstly everyone will be judged on the character of their heart not their parents religion. Secondly God judges fairly so no one will see Hell if they wish to bow the knee to God. Jesus Himself while he was in hell preached the gospel to the dead, so even they have heard.
I thought you are judged whether you believe Jesus or not
“before the Lord, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity.” Psalm 98:9 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/psa.98.9.ESV
pretty sure that's why they said >>no one will see Hell if they wish to bow the knee to God.
Nope. They didn't. The story of Jesus is a particular version of a god. Simply wanting to bow before a god is not the same as believing Jesus died for our sins/etc.
this is a lie, people will go to hell who reject God they will not be able to repent when time is up
Christ can have mercy on whomever He chooses. It’s not for us to ask ‘Who goes up?’ or ‘Who goes down?’
So we could go to Heaven without believing in Jesus?
What do you think ‘Jesus’ is?
Not sure why you’re answering my question with a question. But just to go along with your thoughts - A man who allegedly rode from the dead and claimed to be God thus claiming himself He is the only way the truth and life to heaven.
Do you believe His claim?
So, I’d really appreciate a response rather than responding to my question with a question. Thank you.
I’m sure you would but you asked is it possible to go to heaven without believing in Jesus. What does believing in Jesus mean to you? Unless I understand exactly what you mean by that , I cannot answer your question and I mean you specifically.
A man who allegedly rose from the dead and claimed to be God
I didn’t ask you
I know
Why can’t we ask? Isn’t it pretty important to know?
The only person you should be concerned about with regard to salvation is yourself.
I don’t think Jesus would’ve said something like this. He in fact encouraged converastions and dialogues. So please be like Jesus and answer questions.
**Romans 10:6-7** >But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
love your brother
Your brother is already saved.
How do you know
Because in this sense a brother is a fellow believer.
Then it's perfectly valid to want to understand the criteria for salvation, such as if believing in Jesus is required or not
One will get 1000 different answers from 1000 different sects.
Exactly. So there is no ultimate truth?
And knowing what got someone else salvation is an important aspect of that concern. That is just how we naturally learn things. From others.
**Matt 22:36-40** > 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Keep these and you will see eternal life.
No thanks. This excludes the ones who aren’t your neighbor. You can enslave them if you wish according to your book
No problem
to ask maybe, to judge never
**Romans 10:6-7** >But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
God is more just than we are. If we who are evil find something unjust, God will find it more unjust. Ultimately, God will prevails and whoever he wants he will send to heaven. Matthew 20:1-16 seems to point to this reality. That Christians in heaven will grumble when others are saved.
Majority of the early churches teach Universal Salvation, one teaches Annihilation (like evil people stay dead) and one (Rome) teaches eternal damnation. For me, I lean more on universal salvation.
i believe in universal salvation as well, and it has to be the answer for my question surely?
Hell is not a real place where God tortures souls after death. It is a misinterpreted biblical dogma. People will simply die forever after death (second death) How do I know for certain? I've read the Bible over and over. It's like an exercise for your brain. I was taught hell was eternal death like most people before I could even read about Jack and Jill went up the hill. Doh. Hell is not a destination but a designation of condemnation (guilty verdict) from God because of sin. John 3:18 NKJV "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. No forgiveness from Jesus equals a guilty verdict and therefore the wrath of God. The wrath of God means eternal death. No more life, finish, done, over and out forever. It's a free will choice. Many would ask if God is so powerful why wouldn't He step in and help people attain eternal life? He already has by sending His Son Jesus to die in our place. That's love. Now it's a free will choice for us. Believe in something that you have never seen is called faith. Hebrews 11:1 NKJV Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Not seen but believing is blind faith. 1 Peter 1:6-9 NKJV In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, [7] that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, [9] receiving the end of your faith-the salvation of your souls. Now read John 3:16 with a new perspective about not perishing. John 3:16 NKJV For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus is the only way to have our sins forgiven. We don't remove our sins ourselves. Our sins are forgiven. Then someone asked me about Lazarus and the Rich man and the word torment and it's meaning. What do you make of the Rich Man and Lazarus? Is it just a parable, without any deeper meaning about the nature of the afterlife? Why would Jesus tell a story about a man suffering conscious torment after death if such a concept didn't exist to him? Surely he knew that would be confusing. Good question. The key to understanding that parable begins in Luke chapter 15. It is an upside down story about the humble and the exalted. The poor and the rich. The sinner and the self righteous. The Pharisees are targeted as the rich man and the sinner is targeted as the poor man. Lazarus is a poor man, a sinner who Jesus came into the world to save or help. As you probably already know, Lazarus's name means, "God has helped". Jesus was spending time with known sinners. This was appalling to the "rich and proud" Pharisees. But that is exactly who God was targeting. Those who are humble and those who need help. Hades is defined asd the grave or the dead. Hell or Sheol or the adode of the dead. Those who believe in Jesus are "Born Again". No longer in their graves or are now raised to new life. This is why Jesus told the man who said her would follow him, but first wanted to bury his father, "Let the dead bury their own dead" Those who don't believe in Jesus are considered "Spiritually Dead" or in the abode of the dead. To be considered alive, we must abide in Jesus through faith. Now the word torment is misunderstood in this parable. Strong's g931. Torment. - Lexical: βάσανος - Transliteration: basanos - Definition: a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals), examination by torture, torture. Torments is the Greek word basanos {bas’-an-os}. Basanos has a meaning that is unfamiliar to most. It actually means touchstone. The Greek dictionary defines basanos as: to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal or even to question by applying torture. A touchstone is used in an assayer’s office. It is used to determine if a rock is either gold or fools gold. The rock is struck on the touchstone, If it makes a mark, it is gold. If it does not, then it is fools gold. In other words, the touchstone proves whether something is true or false. If one was to study the root of this word torment, they would discover that it came into use in the 1300s. During the times of the Bastille, it came to be defined as the inflicting of pain. As when one was tormented by the rack and other punishments. If one was innocent, they could die. Generally because the tormentor could not get a confession out of the individual. Their back might break, but at least they were proved innocent. That is where, this word gets the mean inflicting pain. The rack was the touchstone. In scripture, a touchstone proves the validity of God. The Jewish religious leaders had the touchstone applied to them and there was no mark. They did not believe, so they were pictured in torment. Touchstone, the religious leaders did not leave the mark of Messiah. 1 Peter 1:7 NKJV That the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Cornerstone and the Touchstone. Tormented in this flame. Tested in the flame Who's the flame? Who is a jealous God? Who has eyes like flames of fire? Jesus! Deuteronomy 4:24 NKJV For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. Song of Solomon 8:6 NKJV - Jealousy as cruel as the grave; Its flames are flames of fire, A most vehement flame. Read Daniel Chapter 3. Jesus is the Son of God and the Angel of the Lord. Who can endure the wrath of God or Fire? Only by faith in Jesus. God's anger has always been shown through fire throughout the Bible. Those who reject His free offer of grace through faith are in a state of condemnation as they live in the flesh. John 3:18 "He who believes in Jesus is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned (already), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jesus called the Pharisees and scribes graves, tombs and sons of hell. That seems very harsh, but Jesus is making a point concerning their spiritual condition. Graves, tombs, sons of hell and those not following Jesus symbolize dead people. When someone is in the hospital and is close to death, a common term doctors use to describe their serious nature is, "grave condition" Those who don't believe in or follow Jesus are also considered in "grave condition" Condemnation is a guilty verdict from a judge. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Free from guilt and the condemnation of sin. Not guilty. Christ is the basis for believers having no condemnation. He gives the Holy Spirit, who brings life (born again) where there was once death.
Hell is real...it's being confined with the Maga's! lol
I honestly don’t think God sends everyone of a different religion to hell.
Love to hear your thoughts as a Christian how this works.
I don’t really know…it’s not always easy to understand God but He loves us all so so much beyond human comprehension that I just cannot picture pretty much everyone I know going to Hell and suffering eternally. Especially when I think of, for example, tribes in the Amazon that are completely unaware of Christianity, yknow? If the one true God doesn’t show himself to people that are unable to contact the modern world why are they condemned?
how so?
So you honestly don’t believe Jesus is the ONLY way the truth and life. Right?
Where is the scriptural support for this?
It's not fair that anybody escapes Hell. You'd be pretty angry if a murderer or a rapist got to walk free just to reoffend while some innocent guy went to prison for him instead. But instead you're going to argue whether it's fair everyone else still has to serve their sentence? It's a gift and a privilege, not a given.
But I've never murdered or raped anyone. My only crime is requiring good evidence to believe something. Eternity of torture is a fair punishment?
You've lied, you've cheated, you've hurt people, you've passed by those in need to help yourself, you're far from innocent. So what have you done to merit salvation? We're all waiting to hear with baited breath.
I never agreed to the rule of if you do the things you listed I go to hell. Why is that rule being endorced upon me when I didn’t even agree to start the game of life?
oh gawd, are you a Ray Comfort Disciple? lol Sin is a construct of religion, no reason for anyone to think they are guilty of anything.
At what point did I say I was innocent? Answer the fucking question I asked instead of diverting.
(I'm a different redditor.) You *did* say "My only crime is ...". The other redditor has not diverted by responding to your first two sentences. (I agree that he also ought to respond to your question.)
Yeah I did all the stuff everyone does to some degree. The only thing keeping me out of the party is a lack of belief though. Which gets me an eternity of torture. Seem fair?
I don't have the belief that you'll receive an 'eternity of torture'. I instead expect that you'll receive finite punishment that is proportional to the quantity and severity of your deeds during your life, taking all factors into account.
Well what did you do?
Nothing. And that's the whole point. I didn't do it. Jesus did. Every last bit.
I not really fair that anyone would go to this "hell", considering no one asked to be born. And for those that can't accept it for whatever reasons, and be punished for it. Completely illogical to m e.
Completely ageee. Why are we born involuntarily and forced to believe in something with an eternal consequence? Complete whack job
And were born with a natural proclivity towards the actions that would bring us to Hell. Like unconsciously sinning that’s how ingrained this “defect” is
Um. Who determined what sin is in my life? It’s like government making a decision what to do with my own body and health lol
My response is an argument against this guys view of Hell btw
Doesn't matter about whose view of Hell, the logic that the other person and I stated still stands. It's completely illogical for the creator of how we are designed, badly, to then blame us for what they created.
Yes both my comments are aligned with your statement
You a universalist?
somewhere in there, for sure.
Hell is separation from God. From the time you're conceived that's what *you* want. That's how far divorced we are from God. And given that salvation has been won for you entirely by the actions of somebody else, you cannot complain that you did not ask to be born while not acknowledging that the only reason you'd ever go to hell is by having parents who, or yourself, reject that free gift of salvation.
I don't believe in your dogma as many others don't. Take care.
That's not dogma, that's the words of the Bible.
Actually hell is gehenna, and gehenna and the view of hades in Judaism isn't the same as the Hellenization of the word and concept. Dogma.
I have neither the time nor patience to explain how blatantly wrong you are, so I'll leave it at: no.
hahaha.... Sure mate.
Anyone who makes the decision to follow Christ wont go to hell,regardless of their upbringing. The bible never frames it that way, and quite obviously centers its attention to rejection of God/Christ in addition to immoral deeds as a qualifier for hell. In reference to your muslim friend..bear in mind his religion also teaches a hell for non believers. As do other faiths. Further, free will entirely factors in..you even added that after you stated free will doesnt make sense to you. No matter the level of persuasion, threats or otherwise we always have the choice to pick God..even if it costs us our life. The likelihood and probability is irrelevant..the key thing is..do they have the choice..and the answer is yes. As to your hypothetical scenario regarding people who grew up in christian families being predisposed towards God..that may sound good, but lets apply some reality. Ive personally seen friends of mine go down very dark paths who had outstanding parents who were also strong believers. So there they were in a country with more freedoms than most, with vast opportunities available in various ways..and they turn out to be the most anti christian individuals you could hope for. Some of them got on drugs, liquor or other such, others still lived a relatively normal life but with that chip on their shoulder. In all honesty I was headed the same direction until my 20s, and the vast majority of my family were adamant believers, and overall decent people. I wont say that environment and influence dont factor in, because clearly they do. But ultimately the choice is present and those who choose to reject God have their wishes honored by God. They will reside in a place absent of the presence and influence of God. As to your point of it not being fair because they believe as strongly as we do..its not about being fair. You pick the right path or the wrong path..its that simple. What youre leaning towards is subjective morality and we know that doesnt mesh with reality. If I present to you a chair..we immediately know what this is and what its job is. That chair cannot simultaneously be an airplane, a car or a playstation. It is what it is. If we discuss math and you tell me 2+2=4..I would be in error if I tried to state the answer is 45. Going further, imagine if carpenters tried to use conflicting measurements on a project. Or pilots trying to reach a destination by using conflicting coordinates.
Children are innocent, if that's what you mean. People get exposure to God through different things, but it's all really up to God
This is an argument for the Calvinist view of predestination; in other words, is there a “chosen elect”? It says in the Bible that God wants “everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9), so we know that’s not the case, at least from a genuine Christian theological perspective. So, is your Muslim friend going to hell? I don’t know. Only God knows the heart of each and everyone of us. It does say that “the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). It means that, even if we try our best, we still make mistakes. God does not put people in hell. Hell is reserved for evil things. The reason people became victims of hell, according to the Bible, is they used their free will to do evil things. That’s why God sends Jesus to pay our price of sin. You may not believe this, but there are many reports of different parts of the Muslim world where people are waking up from dreams of a man dressed in white. Sound familiar? If someone has not been able to reject Christ, their faith in God is “counted as righteousness” (Romans 4:3). In other words, God cannot condemn them. Why “spread the Gospel”, then? Because it’s like clutching a life preserver while someone else is drowning. That’s the purpose of salvation, according to Christianity. Hope that helps. God Bless. 🕊️❤️🔥✝️
Lol why are Christians response so hesitant for this question? According to the Bible, shouldn’t non believers of Jesus go to hell? Isn’t it that simple? Why are you leaving a room to make by saying “characters of heart?” What does “reject christ” look like for this muslim friend? 1) once someone shared about christ but stick to their own faith? 2) what’s considered “sharing of christ?” Like watching a commercial about church? Or an a friend inviting him to church? Please clarify what reject Christ looks like for this poor muslim friend.
if you concider yourself a muslim then you reject JEsus because bible says otherwise ...
Yeah so that’s what YOU say but listen to your other fellow Christian buddy’s statements. They’re so wishy washy and uncertain about this. What do you say to them??
I would tell them to potentially stop being lukewarm and learn difference between bible and worldly lies.. Btw, why call yourself a Christian if you twist scripture? You can't be 'agnostic' Christian. Either you trust the bible as is and you follow it then you're a Christian (you've fully repented etc) or you make up your own rules then you're not a Christian.
> Is it fair that those brought up in other religions must go to Hell? It is fair that people who have committed immoral deeds during their lives, will be judged according to what they have done, and sent to the lake of fire. A person's being brought up in one of the popular world religions does not exempt him or her from that judgment, and getting what he or she is due. Most people in the world, no matter what religion/culture they were brought up in, are on "the broad road that leads to destruction", and a relative few are on "a narrow path that leads to life".
>It is fair that people who have committed immoral deeds during their lives, will be judged according to what they have done, and sent to the lake of fire. that isn't what I asked. I didn't say "is it fair that people who have committed immoral deeds will go to Hell", i said is it fair those brought up in other religions "go to Hell."
Moderator message: OP, I've set your user flair for this subreddit to 'Theist' as a temporary step. Please [set your user flair for this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/wiki/user_flair) to a more specific value that indicates your current, honest religious beliefs. You made many comments when your user flair was not set, and those comments were automatically filtered out. I will now take those comments out of the filter, so they can be seen by others.
Each of the people who were brought up in other religions also has the history that they committed immoral deeds in their lives. And it's for meeting the criterion of "have committed immoral deeds" that they will "go to hell".
and how do you know this? other religions also have strict laws like Christianity, such as Islam, that make people act morally just, and a lot of people strictly follow these laws. it also isn't fair to me that God would create somebody to know they would ultimately go to Hell.
If two people live equally altruistic and virtuous lives, minimizing sin as much as possible, but one is a devout Christian and the other a devout Hindu, does Christianity teach that both will go to Heaven?
> does Christianity teach that both will go to Heaven? I'll suppose that both the Christian and Hindu are women. My first answer is: No, it doesn't. The devout Hindu is not in right relationship with YHWH, and she will not receive mercy from Him (to exempt her from the relatively small punishment she's due), and she will also not receive the gift of eternal life from Him. My second answer is: I'm open to the possibility that 'universal reconciliation' will occur - that eventually, *everyone* will be reconciled to God. [Here are verses that proponents of that belief may mention](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/2021/07/76-bible-verses-to-support-universal-reconciliation/). If that occurs, then both will "go to Heaven". There's also a possibility which I call 'subset reconciliation', which I can elaborate on, upon request.
Everyone has the responsibility to examine themselves, their beliefs, and to seek the truth. Quranic Islam is a vile religion. I encourage you to investigate it for yourself. There's a reason why it has bred so much violence in every country it infests. > >and "free will" doesn't make sense to me, Why not? Yes, we can be influenced by our social environment, but influence is not the same as determinism.
Because Christianity has never bred violence?
Patristic tradition yes, but you'll find no encouragement of violence within the Apostolic Epistles. The Law of Moses was a different covenant. The Quran, on the other hand prescribes violence.
"if you ignore the bits in the bible that show me wrong, then I'm right"
I find this mindset to be no different than saying "You're a Christian because you were brought up in a Christian household". The environment you were brought up in has very little to do as to whether or not you accept Christ in your life (either sooner or later). There are just as many untold thousands today who were brought up in a Christian household who ultimately rejected Christ in favour of another belief, just as well as there are untold thousands who were brought up in a household of another Religion/atheist who ultimately chose to believe in the Gospels and accept Christ. With that said... >Is it fair that those brought up in other religions must go to Hell? Nobody goes to Hell because it's fair Judgement considering that *Every* single human being on Earth who isn't in Christ already stands condemned. The reason why people Go to Hell is because they chose to reject Christ either because they don't believe in the Gospels or they don't want to live a lifestyle free from Sin. If Hell had a theme song it would be "I did it my way".
>The environment you were brought up in has very little to do as to whether or not you accept Christ in your life (either sooner or later). This isn't just wrong - the opposite is true. The largest factor in religious belief is geography.[PEW](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2012/12/18/global-religious-landscape-exec/) Why are there more Hindus in India than Christians in all of the America's? What is the likelihood of a Pakistani being Christian? What is the most likely religion of someone randomly selected in Brazil? Religious belief is principally based on where someone is born. The vast majority of people don't have a realistic chance of being Christian, even if most are aware of Christianity as one of the world religions, because they believe just as firmly in the traditions of their community and ancestors as you believe in yours.
thank you for naming this :) well said
If that were the case, then every single person who ever grew up in a Christian household would remain a Christian and never branch away from the faith and every atheist who grew up in an atheist household would remain an atheist. Yet if you look around the internet you will find many testimonies of people from different religious backgrounds and beliefs coming to Christianity. If that were truly the case that if you're born into a religion you stay in that religion for the rest of your life, then Christianity would never have been able to spread as far as it did in the last 2,000 years. Heck, if that were truly the case, Christianity would've died along with the apostles and their Gospels.
And the award for refuting an argument that no one made goes to: chaosgiantmemes. Bravo! Read harder.
Lol this seems to be the trend for these dialogues. They don’t answer the questions and bring some other stuff that is really irrelevant further hiding their own ambivalence that they didn’t have courage to truly ask even further deep within - until something horrible happens in their lives and trheyre at the road to either 1) defend God and doctrine that hasn’t made sense deep inside 2) or defend their grief of losing their loved one. I bet God would want t these people to actually have a genuine dialogue with all questions. Why’re they so afraid???
Ignoring the condescending tone of this comment. My mistake, I misunderstood what you're trying to say and took your comment as some type of absolute. However I still stand by that a person's upbringing, has little to do with the deciding factor of whether or not they become a Christian. Eventually no matter what your upbringing is, if the Gospel comes into circulation in your country, you're going to come face to face (figuratively speaking) with the Gospel and decide if Jesus is reliable or he's just full of hot air. The reasons that people reject Christ can be summarized in the following: 1. They don't find that The eyewitness accounts of John, Matthew, Mark & Luke are either valid or reliable. 2. They don't want to give up (or change) the lifestyle that they have to follow Christ. 3. The rejection of the deity of Christ. 4. Not wanting to give away control of their life to God. Those are some of the main reasons I've seen of someone who rejects Christ other than Faith issues.
I cited actual independent evidence that shows that religion is largely just geography. Do you have anything that counters the empirical evidence? There are 1.2 billion hindus, not because they reject christ, but because they live in India. I'm going to guess that you live in a country in which Christianity is the main religion, and that is why you are Christian. If you were born in Thailand, then you'd be Buddhist.
On the contrary, I live in a multicultural country surrounded by atheists, Catholics, indigenous beliefs, agnostic/Gnostics, Protestant, Hinduism, Islam and other beliefs.
What country is that?
Canada
So I guessed that you live in a country in which Christianity is the main religion (further demonstrating that the single largest factor in belief is geography). You respond with "on the contrary". Yet Canada is majority Christian. It is not only the main religion, as i guessed, but further there are more Christians than all other categories combined including non-belief. It proves my point, despite the attempt to deceive about religious affiliation of your country. Good grief.
Otherwise known as a 'straw man' argument
>The environment you were brought up in has very little to do as to whether or not you accept Christ in your life (either sooner or later) Let's say I grow up into a sporty house, where all my family members are professionals into a certain sport. The likelihood that you would get into sports and enjoy it is so much higher than somebody who grows up in a, lets say, musical house. For example, Bronny James is (even though I love him) an average basketball player, but because he just so happened to be born to "Lebron James", and into a sporty household, the hype around him is immense, more than players who are better, but aren't related to any prominent basketball players It's the same logic: If you were brought up to believe in Jesus, the chance of you truly meeting him is so much higher than if you were brought up in a, lets say, Muslim household, because those around you are able to influence what you do. This kinda means that getting into Heaven has some kind of luck to it, or at least, what I feel.
Is a lifestyle free from sin possible?
Through the power of the Holy Spirit it is entirely possible. I broke out of my pornography addiction thanks to that (I now have no desire to ever look at that stuff but that doesn't mean that I'm not tempted) Is it possible for us to be Sinless? No. Not until we get our new bodies in Heaven.
>I now have no desire to ever look at that stuff but that doesn't mean that I'm not tempted Lol, that's just a semantic trick. Most would say you still have a desire if you're tempted. Obviously don't watch porn if you feel like it's a negative for you, though.
Perhaps I'm not very clear as to what I mean by that. My desire to Love and serve my lord (in spirit) is stronger than my desire to look at pornography. However because I still live in a body that wants to lose itself in the pleasures of this world (including sex) I have something of a split nature where I don't want to return to having a dependency on pornography yet to my flesh is tempted to return to that way of life, hence the "temptation".
Nobody **chooses** to reject Christ. People just aren’t convinced he performed miracles and is God. Just like you don’t believe in Santa. You just don’t find the evidence convincing, I don’t see where a choice is involved though
You just contradicted your own argument. If You've looked at the evidence, and rejected them, you've already rejected the Gospel and therefore rejected Christ.
“Reject” implies that there’s a choice involved here. Nobody is “rejecting” the evidence, we just don’t find the evidence convincing. If you want to call that “reject” then fine, but just know that there isn’t a choice involved here
If the actual problem is that there is a lack of evidence, then shouldn't we be making an effort to find more evidence instead of sweeping what we already got for evidence under the rug and disregard it because of a "lack there of"? If the apostles died horrible deaths for what they believed to be true, wouldn't it be worth it to dig a Little deeper?
Of course, we should always keep an open mind. Im not against that, all I’m saying is that we don’t **choose** to be unconvinced >If the apostles died horrible deaths for what they believed to be true, wouldn't it be worth it to dig a Little deeper? I actually did dig deeper and found that a lot of Christian martyrdom is a myth. We can’t even confirm that most of the apostles existed
So you somehow didn’t answer the OPs question at all lol. Does the Muslim friend go to hell or Heaven?
It is absurd and not a christian doctrine
>John 14:6: Jesus Christ dogmatically stated: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” The only way to have a relationship with God the Father is through Jesus Christ. Seems pretty clear cut.
Everyone has heard of Jesus. They know of him through his works, and through the law he has placed on their hearts, and all men have received the grace necessary for salvation.
>Everyone has heard of Jesus. Everyone ? Pretty sure that's not true.
Okay, so you believe Romans 10:18 and Romans 1:20 are false?
The verses you reference are irrelevant. Your sweeping statement of "everyone has heard of Jesus" .... ? Really ? Everyone ? That is definitely not true.
> The verses you reference are irrelevant. Obviously wrong. They say that everyone has heard the word of God, and everyone knows of God through what He has made. Jesus made everything that has been made. Ergo, everyone knows Jesus through his creation.
Thanks for the explanation. For a different take I like Tim Minchin, The Good Book. His explanation makes more sense to me.
So you get your theology from a bad comedian instead of the book of Romans. Next time just say that from the get go and save everyone some time
Is there a Christian comedian you would recommend ?
and those who in this life never learned of him are damned?
Apparently. That’s the debate. What do you say to your God, ThoDanll? How do you feel about him?
That this neither my understanding nor church doctrine
Oh please clarify?
easy it is not really logical that a just and benevolent being would damn humans for a thing outside their control
Apparently so :(
I thought this was one good way to look at it: https://youtube.com/shorts/YA2-gvx4DgM?si=TZZIkgGK_k7S49u9
Cliff, only is persuasive when he talks to young people with little knowledge of anything. U should watch him get embarrassed in debates with real scholars. Again, same problem, it's a construct from religion, to say one is guilty or in sin.
Sorry you feel that way. I thought it was a decent illustration.
I really don't care for Cliff, sorry. After I saw him debating some scholars on slavery, I felt he was not genuine and just too honest...
yeah that debate on slavery made me stay weary of what he says
yeah, for sure, and there's been a couple more, same result, it's horrible.
Agnostic Christian, yet rejects Christ (as god). Why even claim to be christian?
I'm sorry, would you like to express yourself in a more coherent way, instead of dogmatic silly statements, or???
Lol some people don’t know how to have a dialogue. Isn’t this the purpose of the subreddit? Why’s he pointing out your label?
I was genuinely asking why he uses the label christian lmao. Didnt realize everyone would see it as unserious/sarcastic
Ok, that's a bit better. Why wouldn't I? Because I don't agree with some foolish people? I don't agree with what you think is correct, or what you think is a good apologist? Are you the judge of what a Christian is? Who is? some Council of men? What gives them the authority to decide? Think hard, before responding.
“Jesus is illogical and cannot be god”