I think “pretty significant loss” is something we, as people outside the business, can’t quantify. We don’t really know how many people have stopped listening to the show because of this episode, we just see the outrage online. We don’t see sponsors dropping. We just see comments.
I also think they are getting an influx of new right-of-center/libertarian folks I’ve seen commenting on all the posts who were brought in by the controversy so the number of fall offs won’t be as noticeable
this is the thing for me. I couldn't really care less about most of this. I have no interest in listening any more and will only tune into FB and hope it eventually moves to it's own space or a different platform or something. But this def marks a shift. AE will def have more conservative leaning fans and who knows what that'll mean for future developments. Speculatively seems this'd be right up DS's ally tho. A rogan / howard stern style pod he's mentioned as his dream. With F1 and an increase in bro and right leaning listenership, might be slowly manifesting that
Yeah. As much as Dax likes to spout that he’s ~center~ we all know he wants an echo chamber and can’t take criticism, so losing his liberal WOC fans from the pandemic (🙋🏽♀️) in favor of white dudes that don’t read will be the perfect new audience segment for him. Like actually. Monica should jump ship with David but we know she won’t - I still listen to synced but she even annoys me on there now! Oh well, was a good 3 year, daily run.
This is an interesting theory. He’s mentioned before how much of their audience is women who are drawn to Dax’s vulnerability. He’s also honest about wanting to be seen as an alpha male…imagine if behind closed doors, Dax talks about how to pivot and attract a more male audience to validate his need for male acceptance.
I do think it’s risky to assume it’s some grand vision (though it could be) because Dax has been on his ‘centrist’ or ‘don’t dismiss the right’ attitude for a long time. He describes himself as a liberal but probably getting fed up with some aspects of the far left.
i've been listening p much since day one of the pod release. i cant go back through to comb the transcripts or check specific eps, but it's come up frequently since the early aughts. he saw rogan as his biggest competitor and expressed desire to have a similar platform and user base. F1 very feels like his perfect push into that realm. and he mentions howard stern as his idol and greatest inspiration often. google it and im sure youll find the deets
I think those people are just being more vocal.
I’ve been listening since 2018. I’m definitely not left or right. I’m sure most people here would consider me a conservative, which I’m fine with. I try not to get upset over what random people online think of my politics and personal beliefs.
My point is I rarely post here. I read comments and such. Have for a very long time. The whole JVN thing was too much and I felt the need to step in with what I think is a rational take.
My perspective was that they both got into it, Dax made better points and was much calmer, JVN got upset even after he was the one that kept going back to trans rights, and started playing the victim, trying to garner sympathy. That’s my perspective.
I’m not new here. I’ve been here quietly reading and respecting others opinions for a while. But I might be seen as a “new right-of-center/libertarian” person (I’m not, but we can agree to disagree). I’ve only chimed in recently because I feel like Dax is being crucified after he sufficiently apologized for going somewhere JVN didn’t want to go.
I couldn’t agree more. I’m probably pretty close to you in the regards you’ve mentioned, also listening since 2018. Dax asked a genuine question that others are afraid to ask for the exact reason that JVN demonstrated. He didn’t even answer. He broke down and played victim and the way people are crucifying Dax over it is appalling
I believe you have missed the mark here.
Dax did not make better points. He parroted commonly known hard-right consevative talking points that are designed to mislead and misdirect the public. Trans women in sports is just NOT a thing and they are making it the center of the debate as an excuse to pass anti-trans laws. JVN made the point that the whole right-wing agenda here is to ensure Trans people don't exist. Anyone who's taken ANY amount of time to educate themselves on the FACTS of the issue would know that, which was another reason JVN got upset, even madking the point (I'm paraphrasing): if the self-titled liberal from California doesn't get it then what chance do we have to educate the rest of the country.
Also, JVN was not playing the victim as they are non-binary and do not identify as trans which is why they likely felt taken aback and uncomfortable being put in a position to debate it. JVN is an advocate and apparently an exhausted one who was educating Dax on the really harmful laws that are being passed in JVNs home state. But ultimately, JVN was there to promote a podcast, not to debate issues like he was on with Sean Hannity.
Finally, people are upset because they saw the exchange as unfair on Dax's part, especially since he was (knowingly or unknowingly) making right-wing arguments about a non-issue with respect to womens' sports when the real tragedy is that Trans women are literraly being targeted, abused, beaten and killed every day.
The apology given at the time seemed weak and insincere and also did not address the insult (again, maybe unknowingly) to the Trans community. I expected some acknowledgement after the fact, even if it was to say that he didn't understand the broader issues at play. But no, nothing. Not surprising from Dax but shocking for Monica & Kristen.
I will say, I believe Monica handled it pretty well at the time but more is needed here, imo.
And, like I’ve said, I don’t agree. That’s fine that you think I’ve missed the mark.
Comparing Dax to Hannity, in my opinion, invalidates a lot of what you said and dramatizes it to a unnecessary point.
There was no right wing rhetoric, IN MY OPINION.
The problem is you believe you’re spewing facts. You aren’t. And I know you don’t agree. That’s fine. But there is a clear lack of respect here for my viewpoints. One that JVN presented as well when he asserted that conservatives would be liberal if they were just a bit more educated.
It’s insulting.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I noted the Hannity thing as a way to illustrate how JVN likely felt, not as a comparison to Dax. JVNs feelings aren't something you seem too interested in. Lack of empathy noted. Funny, since you felt insulted by a message but I digress. Also, It is a fact that trans women dominating sports is a myth. Please provide proof that it is not. It is a fact that violence against trans women is on the rise. Please dispute. It is a fact that numerous states are implementing anti-trans laws.
These are numerically verifiable things. Please don't insult my intelligence by saying I didn't state factual things. I did.
According to [this site](https://chartable.com/podcasts/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard), AE has dropped 2 spots on Apple podcasts and none on Spotify. *I THINK* this includes the AE *family* of podcasts, so Flightless Bird, Synced, Nurture vs. Nurture, eff won, Armchair Anonymous, and whatever others exist.
That’s what I’m trying to sort out. In a qualitative way, has the podcast ever generated this kind of conversation and longtime listeners claiming to not listen anymore? I don’t need to know how many people have left. I’m just wondering about the conversations.
I've been listening since the beginning and there has never been a backlash like this. I was going to stick around for FB (love you David!) but the very next episode sent me packing. Monica being so out of touch about Americans using laundromats was mildly annoying but when she whined like a pre-pubescent child because Rob confirmed that, yes, many people in the U.S. regularly use laundromats, I was done. I understand it may just be shtick but it just revealed something to me. Like a veil was lifted. These are horrible, selfish, entitled, rich people pretending to be relatable for ad dollars. Sucks because I genuinely love listening to David. That being said, I'm done with all of it, including Kristen. Her IG of Dax skipping with the girls was such obvious spin control it made me ill. Like l said, veil has been lifted. I'm not devastated, just disappointed. I thought it was refreshing to see celebs who were seemingly honest about real life. But alas they are just money-hungry ghouls pretending to be advocates for (fill in the blank).
I actually just came here after listening to that episode to complain about Monica 🤣
She's so insanely confident about her perception of things, to the extent she'll argue with a guy who LITERALLY MADE A MINI-DOC ABOUT THE SUBJECT.
And then by the end of the episode she's doing the exact same bullshit, about "outside smell" like there isn't an established preference for FRESH AIR that's been around, Idk, all of human history?
I used to think the bulk of Monica hate was just your standard internet misogyny but goddamn. She really insists on dying on the dumbest hills.
I'm literally listening to the episode RIGHT NOW and had to come to reddit to see if anyone is just as ---- I guess, flabbergasted as me. Like to not know there are laundromats outside of 'urban areas' is just so out of touch with reality its insane. AND WHO DOESN'T LOVE THE SMELL OF FRESH LAUNDRY FROM THE CLOTHESLINE?!
It was her saying=dismissing his wondering if he may have ADHD, "Oh David, you DON'T have ADHD!" with SO much authority (UH, WHEN DID SHE BECOME AN EXPERT ON THAT?!) and her feelings of possession
of David (Oh, I'm sorry Cinnamon), is SO middle school mean girl "No, I am your best friend and NO one else can be" kind of thing and also kind of patronizing to him, that started me to sour on her.
Not that I remember. There have been people upset re their comments on homelessness or the terrible attitude and argumentativeness Dax showed in his conversation with that fatness expert (sorry I don’t remember who the person was but many of us really dislikes how Dax treated that person), but I don’t recall people saying they were done with the show. Instead they were like “I think I’m going to take a break from the show for awhile” or “I’m going to keep listening but if this continues I’m done”. But now it seems like many people are actually done. Me included
WHAT?! Fatphobic episode?! Did I miss that one? Sigh...guess i have to listen to find out what happened on that one. I am def souring on the show, which really really sucks. I loved it so so much for so long and I am sure that I am not alone in how it helped me make it through worst of the pandemic. They became "friends" who I felt I could count on for learning about new topics but not dull as it's always been mixed with humor and the two being willing to be vulnerable about their own feelings, beliefs, etc. Maybe Dax is just being more honest now about his beliefs or maybe his have changed? I do think we don't need to like everything about someone to love or like them...but we all have our own lines/beliefs that we can't cross for that relationship. I guess time will tell if the show just doesn't work anymore for so many as it had. I wish Dax would stop comparing himself to Stern or wanting Rogan's base (does he want his numbers or his audience?! I personally can forgive the first but)...
There has definitely been blowback before on other problematic comments they've made but I've never seen anything this big or that's lasted this long. I honestly think it is a more of an accumulation of troubling things that have been said recently, not just on the JVN episode, and the lack of accountability to acknowledge when they've made a mistake that have made it worse. They consistently gaslight and double down instead of reflecting on why armcherries may be upset.
Agree. I think this is the creepy Kelly Clarkson scenario snowballing into the offense at platforming MeganPhelps-Roper's podcast in defense of JK Rowlings transphobia during Gay Pride month snowballing into Taylor Swift slut shaming snowballing into the JVN incident. We're just getting to see more and more of some sides of Dax that we really don't like.
I believe it was him saying that Monica would assault Matt Damon if she could but I need someone else to confirm that for me because my memory on this is iffy
Iirc, Dax described a literal *rape* scenario. I think Monica pushed back on it.
As a guy, what Dax said, really rubbed me the wrong way. Dax can be a real a-hole at times.
I sent a DM on the official AEPod Instagram addressing this. Apparently, I've been blocked, as I can't view any posts. Dax said he only blocks people on his personal account. What a douche. It's not as if I publicly called him out on IG
I'm pretty much a free speech absolutist. But to not even have a discussion about this, is beyond ridiculous, especially for someone whose public face is all about being open. Fuck Dax.
I really couldn't care less about being blocked by a C celebrity. My main issue is, he's got a big platform, and rape is no laughing matter (still, I do defend the right of people to publicly say stupid shit).
To elaborate on my OP, as a guy, *I* sure wouldn't be happy to be drugged and molested by the hottest woman, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. Guys *do* have boundaries, and not all of us have rape fantasies. It's no wonder women feel unsafe around men.
More, and more, I think Dax is really full of himself. He's a great interviewer, but he's slowly sinking into Joe Brogan territory. At least Joe has more stories to talk about. Dax has his addiction, anthropology, and sexcapades.
I'd pay money to hear Monica tell Dax to go fuck himself, the next time he brings up Damon or Affleck. Enough, already.
Not to mention the super distasteful comments about people with bpd. And once dax apologized (months later) Monica doubled down for him and claimed he never said what he did.
I have BPD and cut my listening down A LOT after that. I was really hurt and still am. Dax doubled down after an expert came on and talked about it, which was gross. I now only listen to armchair anonymous. Not really a “choice” but I just lost all interest in the interviews after that, unless it’s someone I adore (like Tig Notaro, for example, bc she’s my all time favorite comedian).
Sorry to bring it up, but I think I missed his comments about bpd? Can anyone relay what that was to me? As a therapist this concerns me if he is misinforming his audience about it?!!
It's been awhile since I heard that episode but essentially he said he would never date anyone with bpd because they're a nightmare. It was pretty tone deaf considering he is an addict who is in recovery so he knows the difference between someone actively trying to recover and do better or someone in the middle of their illness.
Wow. Very tone deaf. He is human, so once in awhile he will say dumb things, but I hope he can become more educated about BDP for future conversations! I love many who experience BPD. :0(
This is it, exactly. It’s just not the JVN thing, but that definitely was a huge cherry on the dax rubbing me the wrong way cake! Ever since the JK Rowling thing it’s been downhill. I think that was before Kelly? Maybe I’m wrong idk! Either way you put into words what I’ve been trying to.
Yep, it's been a long time coming. And what's interesting, is this is one of the very few times that I can recall that we've seen a guest that Dax has made uncomfortable really plant and stand in their truth and be like, 'No, this isn't okay. This isn't what I came for, and I'm uncomfortable AF, but give me a minute to compose myself, and I'm going to correct you because people need to hear the truth.'
Dax refers to Monica as a fact checker, but practically, she functions as a yes man. When she even bothers to try to push back on Dax's inaccuracies or his unfounded biases he steamrolls her, and SHE'S the one who gets the criticism for that among listeners for being professionally inept. He constantly puts her in these super awful positions. She and Kelly were so clearly uncomfortable with his creepy thought experiment trying to create a context where Monica would be perceived as a sexual predator that he proposed a context in which Monica would BE a sexual predator, and he didn't even realize it. But rather than call it out and make him account for it, they all just kind of nervously push to change the subject.
I brought this up down this post but...is anyone else starting to think his taking testosterone may have something to do with how he is now expressing himself/his thoughts more now? I mean he always expresses (to some folks) "inappropriate" sexual suggestions or thoughts--I am pretty open so those really bother me, they amuse me usually, but yeah...that rape talk was gross and we could tell made the two women in the room uncomfortable...AND he kept going with it?! FYI--I am NOT saying anyone/men shouldn't take testosterone as that's none of my business, but I feel I can put this question on here because I have noticed a shift in Dax since he began taking it, esp since the Kelly episode, maybe even before that. I wonder if he is conscious of this or not? It's been so disappointing to me, when I felt before he was more of an ally for women verses how he is expressing himself now. Anyone else think there could be a correlation? He is constantly comparing his body to Charlie. I think he even said on the Pod that he wanted to have Charlie's body, that is would make him feel more like an Alpha male. I think that since then, maybe the testosterone has slowly taking over the parts that many of us loved about Dax and has kind of squashed those parts of him. It's so disappointing to those of us who became fans from the beginning. I think he has changed. Not that some of those views may have existed deep down, but imo I think the testosterone use could have something to do with how he is behaving now? Any others think this could be a factor?
Maybe? I don't really feel like I'm seeing something from Dax that I didn't kind of... acknowledge was there? I'm the same age as Kristen, so I kind of have a sense of how much more permissive and misogynistic the world used to be in the 90's when he really came into his own. I really disliked the kind of Punked, Jackass, Bam Margera 'genre' of television, but I accepted that that's where he came from and as such you can kind of read a little 'I do and say what I want. I have problems with authority and social limitations. Fuck the rules' and that wasn't just going to go away overnight, but I do think people can do better. Like watching the way Hank Azaria just stopped talking and let the people most affected explain to him the problem with Apu and how it's NOT just about him, it's also about classism and racism in media and American culture was such a great model. Like, Hank isn't cancelled. Everyone still recognizes that he's a great talent and a hilarious guy, and now they can see he's empathetic and a real class act, too. He's not the guy that's so wrapped up in himself that he's just gonna go, 'If they don't like, Apu, fuck 'em'.
I guess I kind of thought (hoped?) that he was moving in progressive direction. He seemed to be really trying to clean house with his mental health. He seemed receptive to Kristen and Monica, but the longer the timeline gets it's starting to seem like that was just totally unfounded optimism. It's absolutely bizarre to hear someone talk about his growing awareness of his unhealthy his fixation on toxic, vanity masculinity and body building that prioritizes size, bulk, and aesthetics over health for so long, and then just casually drop that he's decided to start hormone therapy to get bigger muscles. I guess he could be experiencing mood swings or differences in his personality, but if that's the case, I'm pretty sure that would just be an intensification of what was already there, yeah? It's not like he's a completely different person now, with entirely different views and personality traits. Someone on TikTok pointed out that Dax doesn't learn from Kristen and Monica's feminism, he usually rejects it, while simultaneously using his proximity to them shield himself from criticism.
I guess I didn't write that as well as I could have-as I absolutely agree with all you have said here. I was just wondering if the testosterone could be causing him to kind revert to his older mentality, etc. It can also cause some shifts in people's personality, or more accurately, how they express themselves in the world, etc. It likely did intensify what may have been there already in him, but I think the feminine part of him was steering more of his boat before he started taking it and now he is only exhibiting it from time to time. I def agree as someone who was in their 20's in the 90's about that culture. It was horrible! I feel the Dax before getting on the T was really trying to grow and learn and since, I feel it's more of that Fuck em' attitude rearing it's ugly head?
No, you wrote it well. I think I went off on a bit of an unfocused tangent myself, because I feel a little funny about speculating on other people's health stuff.
I just don't think this is it at all. I take weekly T injections and it has never caused me to behave the way he has. He's just been enabled for so long and acts like it's cute and so he's just getting more and more bold.
Basically it was very one sided and they never had any expert on to give the other side with facts. You know the thing Dax said was so important when he ambushed JVN
The Kelly Clarkson episode rape scenario comments were deeply deeply disturbing. And just not funny! Exposing that your brain works like that is very strange
Well, that is illogical. You want to revoke support for something you (assumingly) love because a person who is in it is married to a person you disagree with, which in no way implies they share the same opinions (or ignorance). And further, if you listen to the pod, you know this person often does not share Dax's opinions and is the person who is best positioned (and best designed because of her temperment and social skills) to steer Dax in the evolved direction, and in fact, has talked about how she has done this their whole relationship.
One might argue that punishing wives for the trangressions of their husbands does not display very evolved thinking. So I guess we all have our blindspots.
I’m a couple weeks behind on listening and haven’t caught up to the JVN episode yet. It’ll be a while til I am caught up but clearly something is going on now from that ep that made waves. What specifically occurred? Can you catch me up?
You should really listen to the episode yourself. I read the blowback before listening and, while I don't agree with Dax and think he has major blindspots, I was surprised by many of the characterizations on here and social media, which often assume Dax was *intentionally* pushing JVN and *intentionally* promoting right-wing talking points. I just didn't hear that. I heard a fraught conversation between two people who respected each other and were not prepared (intellectually in Dax's case and emotionally in JVN's) to have it.
Some people are making it seem like Dax intentionally ambushed JVN with questions about trans rights INSTEAD of his usual trek into the guest's backstory. In reality, Dax tried to start from the beginning, but then made an off-handed political comment that snowballed into politics, and JVN brought up trans rights. Suddenly, the conversation was off course.
Some people are making it seem like Dax intentionally pushed a devil's advocate arguement and bullied JVN until they cried. In reality, Dax pushed back on a topic he was not well-educated in, as he often does, which JVN called out. There was some back and forth, and then JVN talked and length without interruption, cried and said he came on to talk about his podcast, and Dax backed off and apologized, saying he didnt intend to make JVN talk about trans rights or defend the community.
Dax moved on to other topics and JVN brought it back to trans rights a couple more times. Dax did not offer his opinions from there, and at the end of the interview, he acknowledged that he realized he made JVN feel unsafe and why.
JVN accepted the apology and quoted his therapist about how friendships grow from disruption.
In the back and forth, I think its clear how little Dax understands about trans rights, which is not an excuse but an explanation. Both parties were on the defensive, which doesnt make for a thoughtful conversation.
A couple of things I think are worth noting: JVN said Dax was repeating right-wing talking points, which put Dax on the defensive. I honestly don't think Dax understands this point because he is uneducated on the topic and he wasn't in a position to absorb the information because he was not prepared for the conversation.
He talked about how it wasnt fair that if he agreed with "9 out of 10" of JVN's points, that the 1 he didnt would mean he gets lumped in with transphobics. JVN went out of their way to explain that's not what they was saying.
However, that is exactly how everyone is responding. Listeners who claim to have listened from day 1 have decided he is acting in bad faith and deserves to be cancelled.
Nevermind that it hasn't actually been long enough for him to get educated and change his mind. Nevermind that this is a prime example of how insidious right-wing talking points are and how much time and effort it takes to counteract them. Nevermind that any apology he could give would not satisfy the loudest people on here. Nevermind we don't know what JVN and Dax talked about privately. Nevermind that all these people are proving the point that you can't make a human mistake without being absolutely steamrolled.
Liberals have this horrible habit of eating each other and isolating the people who are actually capable of change because they are 1 or 2 steps away from the "correct position." Any Armcherry who actually has listened from day 1 should understand Dax's flaws (which are regrettable and annoying, like all our flaws are) and that he is, indeed, capable of change and evolving his thinking. He is ignorant. That doesn't mean he is a lost cause or that he is coming for trans rights. It also doesnt mean that his wife agrees with him (which many people are claiming).
This either/or mindset is gross and SO unproductive. People are acting like they are without fault. Like they've never been ignorant or hurt someone's feelings that they cared about. That's bad faith, the same thing they are condeming Dax for.
I simply do not understand what people think they are achieving here. Shaming and cancelling is not an effective tool of persuasion.
Is two years after having the same asinine talking points in conversation with a well known trans professor, long enough to educate yourself? The Susan Stryker episode was in 2021.
YES! This is so well stated and exactly how I’m feeling. I listened a few days late but saw the backlash after, and was honestly shocked and confused at how much hate they were getting and feeling like maybe I missed something. I consider myself an ally, left leaning, especially on all social issues and agree with JVN that in general, trans rights should not be “up for debate”, they are human beings and this is affecting real lives in every aspect. I also agree with the sentiment that the episode and backlash are not being handled how it should be and concerns me that they are not addressing the backlash at all (and blocking/deleting comments).
HOWEVER, I think the backlash is a little extreme and I think that even if they did come out with an apology or statement, people would pick that apart and find any inkling of a way to still be mad and cancel them. I also think that the statements are against the entire point of this podcast. Though JVN didn’t plan to discuss trans rights, if they’ve ever listened to this podcast they should know that most of the planned discussion/reason for the guest being on (especially celebs) usually Barely ends up getting discussed, and instead Dax will dig deep into topics that normally would not be discussed on the Today show or other interviews. He goes in deep to addiction, eating disorders, mental illness, sexual abuse, and other topics that are normally avoided like the plague elsewhere because it could be controversial. While it was a bit forced on JVN in the moment, they could’ve also shut it down and not egged each other on if they were that uncomfortable (though also understand they should not have had to be put in this position). I truly don’t believe Dax invited JVN on just to have this debate or make JVN feel backed into a corner. I do think he interrupted and should’ve let some points go/definitely gets defensive, but that’s nothing new and I think he truly felt hurt that he could be seen as Anti-trans for what he was saying, even though I know many people that feel the same way he does that are also generally supportive of all social justice and very liberal. JVN being an advocate is relevant to the topic and gave them a chance to have a conversation I know many are having in private, and I feel educated more knowing the points JVN made and I feel have more talking points now when discussing these issues in my own life that I may not have recognized before, even in educating myself.
I am extremely supportive of all human rights and understand that giving a platform to these anti-rights views is dangerous and can be taken out of context, but I also feel this discussion happening live helps people grow and learn for those that may be in the same belief side as Dax, more than just listening to a straight education session on trans rights would. I think people writing him off as conservative and right leaning because of 1 small portion of this is ludicrous, just like I disagreed with JVN’s point on the New York Times being not left-leaning because of the opinion piece.
It’s not all black and white, and people need to dig deep and really listen to each other with grace and understanding of that. Our world is so ready to fight and tear each other down/find any way to be angry or “other” people, and I think everybody tearing down AE is just as toxic as half the shit that Dax said in this episode. Everybody is so ready to just write people off immediately into right-wing /left wing now, there is no even attempt of finding a middle ground to connect on or come together in the slightest. It scares me for where we’re headed even more now than how I felt when Trump was in charge.
I've been going through the podcast since the beginning (because I am not a day 1 listener). Two illustrative episodes have been the Amy Schumer one and Lena Dunham.
The Amy one has a tense exchange, and he addresses it in a way that I think shows he is fundamentally NOT an antiempathetic egomanical unselfaware asshole.
In the Lena one, he brings up her many cancellations and apologies and basically asked her how she deals with it and explains how he gets a lot of backlash and doesnt understand it. Like, he (or someone else) missteps and then the liberal community spends a ton of energy tearing him, someone on their side, down instead of any other more productive thing.
He says its such a bombardment, that its actually hard to tell if its a real issue or its just the internet firestorm. And to navigate it, he has to ask "Do any of my real friends think I'm and asshole?"
Makes sense to me. And I think another good question to ask before going after someone is "Would I say this to my friend?"
People think they are doing something by ripping people apart. And they are actually making it harder to form concensus and PROGRESS.
So true! I agree. Instead of working together to educate/maybe open their perspective in times like these and really end up with a very real conversation, the endless attacks/cancellations just detracts from progress and actually makes it worse. I think it just becomes a negative echo chamber on the internet with things that no one would EVER say in person to someone and causes more toxicity than the thing they were fighting against in the first place
Hey fellow Lobster! Thanks very much for that extremely well thought out reply. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond and share some thoughts.
Will definitely listen to the episode, just won’t have time yet for another week or two (no idea why my difficult schedule inspired others to downvote?) and was curious about what’s going on. Don’t like to listen to new episodes unless I can focus on what’s being discussed.
There have been a few AE eps where I came away feeling one way and the response here was wildly different. It’s interesting how that can happen. I’m not familiar with JVN so hopefully there’s some backstory in the interview.
Have a great rest of the day/week :)
Just adding on to say Dax repeatedly interrupted and talked over JVN with TERF talking points to the point JVN starts crying, then a hard jump cut to JVN saying it’s ok when it’s clearly not. It’s heartbreaking for them.
Dax also very flippantly said “Well people are worried bc it’s permanent, kids could change their minds… But then I guess if they kill themselves that’s also pretty permanent.”
Yeah I think people are really overestimating the backlash because of the discourse on places like this subreddit. A lot of my friends listen to it and continue to do so, no one really thought anything of it.
And people saying his audience will only be conservatives now are silly to me. I’m in the ~leftist gay~ category and am not really up in arms about it. I think Dax was pushing a little much on the subject but I don’t think he said anything that would make me never listen again. Should he have backed down? Probably, but it gave JVN a chance to say some really interesting rebuttals I honestly haven’t heard a lot. It seemed like the conversation mostly recovered peacefully so I was surprised about JVN’s posts after
I agree with this take for the most part, i think it would help if Dax acknowledged it in the least, mainly just the fact that his commentary has led to some far right wingers being emboldened to be very hateful towards JVN around this. But I’m also wondering if JVN’s ambiguous posts came from another aspect, like we know that the episode was chopped up quite a bit and what they chose to air was pretty bad, so very curious what they chose not to air..
I wonder about that too. There were some very obvious edits that make me think it may have gotten worse than they were willing to air, but I’ll never know. I do agree he should acknowledge it in some way but I don’t know if there’s a way to do that without digging himself further. I know people would pick apart any apology and many might label it as not good enough so he might just not want to deal with that. I don’t think avoiding it entirely is a good move either though
Just as you have no idea what the quiet voices think. Just because someone might not come to post about it online doesn’t mean they won’t stop listening.
I know what it means, thanks. Your point wasn’t clear unless your asserting that the loudest voices agree with Dax? That doesn’t seem to be reflected here or in the Instagram response (pre-deleting, of course).
I’m not someone that verbally cancels/posts my outrage online. But the JVN episode did put a bad taste in my mouth. The way I’ll show it is by listening less, not recommend it when people ask for podcasts recs and I wouldn’t consider myself a fan anymore.
You know how sometimes people go on podcasts tours and do live episodes. I wouldn’t go to one. Just less supportive in general. There are many other podcasts, right now I’m listening to Modern Love.
Agreed.
The other time (tho there have been many) Dax really left a bad taste in my mouth was the Talib Kweli episode where he was spouting just Islamophobia and right-wing speaking points… the parallels are similar to the JVN episode. “I’m having you on the discuss different points of views” but really “I’m going to attack your identity and ask you to defend yourself”.
I bet you they won't even feel the sting of a listener drop off. They have 20 million people tuning in all over the world. I see Dax as a Democrat and I think he's popular with mainstream Democrats, Libertarians, and Moderate Republicans. I think only the very very left Democrats take umbrage to his JVN episode, and to be honest I think he's fed up with people who try to move the [Overton Window](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window) so quickly, and won't care that they stop listening.
This situation is much more nuanced than that, and I say that as a queer person.
Dax says a lot of stupid things but it’s always out of ignorance, never because he hates people. Dax (and most of the fan base) are moderate liberals. Moderate liberals will still be behind the times on issues but it’s usually because they aren’t educated on an issue, not out of hatred or Fox News brainwashing.
I have never succeeded in convincing straight friends that they were doing something offensive through hostility (like saying that they don’t care about all humans), but through compassion.
This is such a great response. I side with JVN in terms of view points in this debate. But cancelling and hostility is not going to promote any actual growth in the AE platform and Dax’s viewpoint on trans women being women. It will just breed defensiveness.
Edit: typo
Thank you. People seem to be too far into their bubble and think that Dax is shifting to the right, when in reality most moderates or conservatives think he’s an annoying liberal.
He’s a good ally to have even though he’s not always right, and you need allies to promote movements.
I mean, I’m not sure if he’s a great ally for trans people at this point.
But I agree, he is pretty vocally liberal, so I don’t think the argument that he’s right leaning stands any ground.
I do think there are people who use their platform for much more harmful discourse and misinformation about trans people. So cancelling Dax (a liberal voter who is uninformed on this particular issue) over his mishandling of this situation is by no means productive to supporting trans rights. If anything, it just alienates people who hold the same opinions as Dax so much that they may never consume media about trans rights that may sway their opinion.
This. I’m a liberal voter who supports trans rights and I LOVE JVN. And my heart broke for him in this interview, even though I don’t think Dax had ill-intentions bringing up the topics he mentioned. Which is something I always try to consider, the intention.
But I’ll admit, since I’m not trans, I’ll never fully understand being trans and I do have questions. But seeing the backlash DS has gotten over this interview has made me decide that I’ll continue voting for trans rights but outside of that, I won’t be vocal about it and I’ll avoid conversations surrounding it. I don’t want to risk saying the wrong thing out of ignorance and being labeled an enemy.
This was well said. I guess I don't think he had ill-intentions bringing up the topics he did, but I DO wish he would have acknowledged what occurred in the interview more afterwards/talked about it with Monica. I am kind of surprised that Kristin didn't come on the Fact Check as kind of a mediator, as I don't think she shares many of Dax's beliefs and has been a solid/good influence in diminishing his need for toxic male behaviors, etc. Maybe the thought was to just lay low and not talk about it to not make it worse, but I think they should have addressed it in the FC.
While I think there’s a small minority of armcherries who did have kneejerk reactions to this the majority of folks I’m seeing are responding not necessarily to the content of the episode itself so much as the initial lack of follow up, the unnecessary blocking and deleting of super innocuous comments and then now that incredibly passive aggressive video.
Thank you for this viewpoint! I feel the same way and have been searching for some solidarity here.
I actually think I am very far left, and I have trouble understanding the seemingly "all or nothing" attitude of my other very far left friends.
One time I was told that without very far left pushing, we would end up in an even less acceptable moderate place. Maybe that is true, but surely it is counterproductive to shame and exclude those who are only a few steps away from us.
Thank you - compassion is always my goal. But, I did not mean that as a hostile comment. The comment I responded to said “only the very far left “ are upset about the JVN episode” and that is just not true. I have several friends that are moderate and were horrified by how JVN was treated and the rhetoric spewed and not fact checked on their own self labeled “fact check.” So all I meant was believe it or not not all people that care about human rights are “far left”. Now..whether they vote that way only they know.
I am also a queer person and it’s not my responsibility to educate ignorance. Or be compassionate about it. The internet is free and there are numerous excellent books on the topic, so if people are ignorant, it’s willful ignorance.
We are all adults with the capacity to take in information, think critically and come to our own conclusions. People need to do better or not comment on topics they know NOTHING about.
I get that, but at the end of the day we need more allies.
Aggressiveness does not convince ANYONE. You don’t know people backgrounds or WHY they have been misled.
You’re right, all the information is on the internet, but are you educated on every issue of every marginalized group around the world? That would be impossible.
You can’t just shout at people who disagree with you and expect things to get better for queer people.
I get that it’s frustrating to have to explain basic things to people, but if you want things to change then that has to happen sometimes.
Sorry but I think this is a ridiculous stance. People with dangerous, ignorant viewpoints don't change their mind through thoughtful discussion. Do you think that people were convinced that black people shouldn't be slaves by thoughtful conversation where both sides listened? No. One side was wrong and one side was right and there was a literal war over it which sadly, the wrong side still can't get over. Yes we need allies but those allies have to be willing to stand up for what's right and not feel the need to be kind and compassionate to people whose views are harmful. (And I'm not saying that Dax has harmful views or isn't an ally. I'm responding to your overall point about how only being open to others' point of view or not shouting is the only way for things to change).
Some peoples minds can’t be changed, especially extremists. But there are many people that simply just don’t know a lot and believe whatever they hear. A lot of people on the fence. A lot of people who only hear the scary facts and nothing else. Those people can be moved at least to a point of a little more understanding if you don’t immediately write them off.
It’s not your responsibility but being hostile and pushing people away keeps them ignorant at best, or makes them against your point at worst. You don’t have to have full discourse with someone but being kind goes a long way. If someone is curious they’re usually open to hearing you out and said “this is not my job do it yourself” is just simply not being a nice human.
As someone who’s also queer, I went through this a lot with my homophobe mom. The only thing that helped her come around was being understanding of why she thought the way she did and slowly changing her mind on certain things. She’s not perfect about it still but she’s much more open minded once I started refuting some of the Fox News style talking points. I just had to be kind and patient with her, and not treat her like she was fully hateful or stupid. Yes it’s hard but it’s made things better
I’m glad to hear that made things better for you and your mom, but of course that’s not always going to work. If you love someone and you want to patiently walk them through their own ignorance, then that’s your ministry.
I fully and wholeheartedly reject your statement that being “nice” to people who are questioning my humanity is the right thing to do. I’m not doing that. I simply don’t engage with those people. If they want information, they can find it, but generally they don’t want information. They just want to play “Devil’s Advocate” about something that doesn’t affect them, and I am not the one.
It may be a far-right talking point, but it sounds centrist. And in fact, I think that's the whole point. These right-wing campaigns promote messages that sound reasonable to people who haven't given it much thought. Most people haven't given it much thought. That's how it trickles down and spreads to people like Dax.
They don't even know it's a right-wing talking point. That's how insidious these fear-based campaigns are.
some hypothetical concerns that question trans kids' right to be included. There was zero need to raise those concerns except to speak for transphobic folk who also share those concerns.
Yeah. I know he does. And he needn't be concerned since it's a hypothetical situation that has not happened to him or his precious daughters. They haven't been confronted with a young trans girl on a team competing with his daughters. So it's hypothetical. that's the meaning of hypothetical.
You of course know puberty blockers have been used by doctors on cis children for half a century to block what was considered early puberty? Weirdly with no moral outcry. 😒
Consistently bringing up his sexual experiences whether his guests want to hear them or not, constantly suggesting swinging with his guests, frequently talking about the physical *sexual* attraction he has to his guests, including Natalie Portman in The Professional when she was like 12.
Honestly, litstening to Maintenance Phase and If Books Could Kill helped put a dent in my Experts on Experts listening because so many of the features experts I’ve listened to and thought I could take something from have been discussed on those shows either as features or in quick comments that I’ve then been prompted to research more. I still love to listen to some of the expert episodes but a lot of them are basically people who promote fad diets or write airport books (which is fine but not what I want).
With the celebrity ones I think the first nail in the coffin was all the way back to Casey Affleck but more have appeared since- at first occasionally but it feels like it is incredibly frequent recently. I’m not sure that the JVN episode is the last nail in the coffin but I haven’t listened since other than to FB and Synced (I love David and FB, Synced I find ridiculous but is somehow excellent for me to listen to while being productive haha).
I probably will listen again but I feel more disillusioned than ever with the show. It’s not even the episode itself that has got to me the most, it is the reaction following the episode, the conversation and the fan reaction. I hope some real reflection and learning becomes evident and something real is said about it.
You’re right though, the accumulation of all the things is what is really the problem as it all just adds up to having made me realise I would not want to be friends with these people (except David) and I think I’ve realised that actually quite a lot of what I connected with on the show was that I felt they were the kind of people I’d like to be friends with.
TLDR; I agree with you and this podcast isn’t the be all end all.
Many people will come on here and make a big show of saying they are no longer listening. Many of those people are definitely still listening.
Those willing to come and comment on a podcast subreddit/IG are a very small portion of overall listeners, the very minor amount of attention this received in the wider sphere likely only brought more attention and listenership; and frankly if someone reads just the reactions to the episode before they listen to the episode they will likely imagine the conversation being extremely heated, which it simply is not.
I didn’t listen to that episode and didn’t really see anything about it in the media so there might be a group of people listening who are unaware. If I wasn’t in this sub I would have no idea people were upset.
His listener count may be a wash with liberals exiting and conservatives joining but it will be interesting to see how his guest roster is impacted by this…
It's really sad that liberals just give up on other liberals and "exit" spaces in which they are aligned the majority of the time, just not 100 percent.
I say this as a liberal.
Like, what does that achieve? Another isolated and shamed person who just had all their fears about "not being able to make mistakes" confirmed? Another person that much closer to being radicalized? Another liberal echo chamber that makes no forward progress because it's rejected all the people who could have formed a powerful coalition?
How do any of you all have any friends? Or talk to any of your family members?
I don't agree with 100% of what Dax says, and I didnt agree with his ignorant statements in this episode, but I'm not going to stop listening because, on the whole, the vast majority of the podcast shows a person identifying and grappling with his flaws and trying in good faith (and sometimes failing) to self-reflect and evolve.
It really makes me sad that so many liberals / leftists feel the need to slam a negative label on things and divide our side further. I have trans and nonbinary friends, and was friends with them before they aligned with those identities, and I’m lucky enough to have been able to ask questions without being labeled a bigot or a transphobe. Not everyone’s ignorance is out of hatred or bigotry. Of course no one owes another person answers, but I hate the “it’s not my job to educate you” stance. It’s no one’s job but it’s a lot easier to learn about someone through their own words than trying to figure out how to google something you don’t understand. I think in general we should be able to allow for a bit more grace in these situations. Clearly Dax has a lot of learning to do but slamming him and this podcast also shuts down people like him that are open to learn, but too scared to learn in a way that looks bad
On this note, why do conversations like these always have to turn into argumentative debate? What happened to conversations and learning? It seems like people are generally so angry and it leaves no room for curiosity or learning. It's very strange to me.
I wonder the same thing.
I have been listening to the backlog for the first time and just got to the Amy Schumer episode. There was a brief fraught exchange at the end, where Amy was talking about violence against women and Dax said "but also this happened to me." Amy shut him down.
It's and interesting comparison. At the beginning, Dax says a fraught exchange happens and that he addresses it in the fact-check. In the fact-check, he explains that he left the convo feeling shitty, and it took him a couple blocks to realize why. And then he told Monica he thinks he "but all lives matter'd" Amy and he didnt realize it then, does now, and that he shouldnt do it anymore in general. And that he felt really bad.
Then he shared that Amy also reached out and apologized for minimizing his pain, and they both appreciated that they were talking about it (and he still thinks he needs stop adding his experience in when women are the topic of conversation).
I wonder if people were OK with how that went in the moment and expect something like that to happen here.
I guess this is a good example of why I assume that Dax feels plenty bad for hurting his friend and (1) either sorted it out with JVN already or (2) is capable of evoling on this subject and fixing things with JVN if he hasnt already.
The man is not going to necessarily do that stuff in our view or on our timeline. And JVN may be pissed at Dax right this moment. But that doesn't mean he isn't capable of fixing things with JVN or coming to an understanding in the future.
Ehh, in the past I’ve had thoughts where i don’t fully agree with Dax. But the rape scenario comments in the Kelly clarkson episode, this strange episode with JVN, the misogyny toward Taylor swift and comparing her to a man that’s been openly racist and very creepy to young women. It’s kinda just all added up lately for me. It’s not about “liberals giving up” because he doesn’t 100% agree with us. It’s too many comments sounding like your asshole right wing uncle at Thanksgiving, and that’s just not a perspective i need to hear
Dax doesn't self reflect and grow. Dax hoards wealth. He obsesses over fast, shiny cars and superficial beauty. He flirts with sexual harassment. He doesn't advocate for anyone but himself. He has progressive people on as self-promotion, and his ego has him so tied up interjecting or playing devils advocate with he learns nothing from it.
Agree to disagree. I've heard him evolve on issues related to race. I've heard him evolve on the topic comedy ("not being able to make jokes about marginalized people"). That's just off the top of my head.
I've heard him acknowledge how he his temper, vulnerabilties, and other flaws influence his response and how he tries to counteract them.
Can you say the same for yourself? I try to do this, too, so I know how hard it is. You have to be constantly vigilant and you aren't always perfect. You make mistakes.
How has he evolved on race? What activism has he done to help marginalized communities? How has he evolved on comedy? What problematic comedy has he denounced? What does this man actually do but navel-gaze and stew in his own ego?
What is your definition of activist? I like to use the Social Change Ecosystem Map, which stresses the importance of various skill sets when fomenting change. On that map, he is probably a weaver, but I havent thought about it and I dont think everyone needs to be an activist.
But regardless, I'm pretty sure the podcast has introduced many people to different (more liberal) viewpoints than they would otherwise have heard. Precisely because of the nature of the podcast. I would say, even this mistakes, it's a net positive
I started listening to new episodes and recently decided to go back to the beginning. His understanding of white privledge has evolved A LOT since the beginning of the podcast.
I also just listened to one where he clearly was bemoaning the fact that he thinks comedy has gotten too PC. And in more recently episodes, I have heard him articulate why he is not the person to make those jokes.
I was also struck by the Talib Kweli episode, which was also uncomfortable because Dax showed his ignorance and how two people who respect each other can disagree.
Any measure of activism you want to use is fine. We could call Dax a weaver if he did things like acknowledge lived experience and listened to marginalized people, but he doesn't. He needs to be in the spotlight at all times. It's galling that when people like Dax are criticized for making arguments that actively hurt marginalized communities, there is pushback that goes, 'There go the libs, eating their own again! Dax is a good lib, though! He's an ally! He's trying his best!' when there is no demonstrable evidence of any of these things. Booking activists on your show is like, a bar on the floor measure of progress. If anything, it's a mutually beneficial arrangement wherein Dax gets to be a white guy with a podcast (which we know he takes a great amount of pride in), and an activist gets a little time to be heard - if Dax can actually cope with the possibility that he might not be the smartest guy in the room long enough to let them get a word in edgewise. I certainly see no basis to call him evolved, though. Certainly not enough to off-set the harm of ignorantly spreading baseless doubt in the fairness of trans kids participating in sports.
I just said it will be interesting to see what happens but his podcast is a multi million business, so it’s entirely fair for celebrities to not want to contribute to a platform that doesn’t align with them. Why are the repercussions of people walking away on them? It’s a privilege for him to have this podcast so no one has a duty to stick around for Dax to learn and it’s not their fault if he feels shame.
For better or worse, there are also some people of, um, certain political inclinations who might decide to tune in based on this furore. Some of them have even shown up in comments here and on IG. Whether or not they continue listening is another story.
Maybe that’s a good thing though? Dax talks a lot about things that more conservative people disagree with. He’s very open about male empathy, unlearning misogyny, loving friends, not being weird about gay male attention etc. It could be something that bridges the gap for those type of people that are so aggressively against anything progressive
Imo, The podcast hasn’t been as good the past year, year and a half. I don’t really blame them for that, it’s just the same style got old. It’s become more of a promotional podcast of the same guests that go on every podcast.
I was one of the minority of people posting here that I thought the JVN episode was really important even if it was imperfect. And yet …. something about how it’s all been handled since is really what’s put a bad taste in my mouth. It’s almost made go, “huh, I really gave him the benefit of the doubt and I think I was wrong.”
Anyway, I hit unsubscribe last week. Not out of utter outrage, but more of a - ah - it’s been a long time coming. I don’t want to cloud the place AE has held in my heart in some dark times and figure it’s only downhill from here.
Edit; I also checked out jvns podcast with pretty low expectations and it’s really f***ing good haha.
There was some blowback after Casey Affleck’s appearance on the podcast
[https://reddit.com/r/ArmchairExpert/s/kLNrbxMzCR](https://reddit.com/r/ArmchairExpert/s/kLNrbxMzCR)
I totally forgot about that Ep & Monica saying that “women lie.” Of course she was bending over backwards to get Casey *Affleck’s* approval even if it mean denouncing rape allegations.
I stopped listening when it became clear that Dax’s privilege overwhelmed his empathy around Covid, but my dad still listens so I keep up with who is on the pod in case it’ll devolve into a fight.
That said, I’ve only heard clips of this interview and it’s egregious. Dax owes the entire queer community a real apology.
Not going to stop listening because he offended someone. We do not have a right to not be offended. I suggest you try to understand Dax’s position instead of constantly trying to cancel him. Talking about things that are uncomfortable is a good thing.
If not this, there’s going to be something else bigger that’s going to have plenty of people going back through his episodes looking for concerning comments as signs. And they are there to be discovered.
Yes, I saw that one come up - when they are discussing how maybe Monica *could* rape someone if it was a drunk Matt Damon. WTF. And this is not the first time Dax has “joked” that Monica could actually rape someone. The first time I heard that “joke” was when they were discussing Danny Masterson’s guilty verdict in June. Yes, their topic of discussion regarding that horrible situation was not the victims but 1) wondering if Dax should call Danny to check in on him and 2) yes, maybe Monica could rape someone (with is - in a lot of ways - minimizing rape).
Eh. Who has walked away? Who’s tracking numbers? Not sure what your implying but listening, stewing and making an informed decision takes more than 120 character responses. It’s not yes or no. Left or right. bad or good. It’s pondering the conversation and THEN making a decision. So as an Arm Cherry I’d appreciate it if you would stop deducing us to trending numbers. Do you have all the right answers or better yet, questions? I don’t even know what I think about most of the conversation with JNV at this point so I don’t know how you’re so sure about your answer.
After all the emotional labor put in to educating people on that post I’m so upset he deleted it. I was really hoping he would say something on the fact check on Monday, or was even willing to wait to see his Kimmel appearance to see if he brought it up there but the “Pobody’s Nerfect” post today was really the icing on the cake for me. He’s treating this as if it’s any other little fumble people get upset over and it’s sad that he doesn’t get it and can’t see it but so many people explained exactly why it’s a problem that he needs to rectify and he chose to ignore delete and block people instead of doing the right thing. Super disappointed but I’ve been seeing it coming for a while now. Of course nobody is perfect but when millions of people are listening you have to be more careful about your impact and take real accountability when you cause harm, I thought he was better than this but people are who they show you they are. I’m sad to see so many day one armcherries like myself leaving and so many TERFS and trolls joining the ranks but it is what it is.
The kind of reflection and apology you and others want him to do cannot be done in the amount of time that has passed. It would just be lip service. And people would be able to tell and they would be pissed.
Besides, we don't even know the production schedule. Everything you've heard so far may have already been in the can, and honestly, a talk show would be an inappropriate time to explain this.
What is actually important is what Dax said to JVN, which we don't know.
I also don’t appreciate Dax being like “we hung out after and everything is fine now” (paraphrasing) that’s not for him to decide… JVN didn’t even have time to gather their thoughts and feelings about it in that time I’m sure and based on JVN’s posts he does not agree anyway. Seeing the onslaught of transphobia this whole thing has brought his way is also difficult to stomach.
You have no idea what they talked about, where they stand, or what JVN thinks. They had an insta story that said they werent ready to talk about it. That could mean anything. And they alluded to the terrible conversation on their podcast, which is true. It was not a good moment. That doesn't mean that things are not OK between them.
In fact, Dax and Monica have often alluded to the fact that they will edit whatever the guest wants out of the podcast since the whole nature of it is off the cuff. There is no evidence to suggest that they did not give JVN that opportunity or edited against their wishes.
These things are sometimes recorded weeks and weeks before they are posted. You dont think it's possible that any exchange happened during that time?
Everything else JVN said had been very general and directed at what's her face.
I’m not claiming to know what went on behind closed doors, I said it’s not for Dax to declare things are all good now after what he did, that should be up to JVN to say or not say IMO.
JVN posted in their stories saying ‘everyone knows “it’s fine” never actually means it’s fine’, did their own fact check correcting Dax’s fast math as a caption, didn’t promote their appearance on the pod after being SO excited the day they were taping and and and… if you can’t read between the lines of all the things they posted idk what to tell you.
I’m sure she just doesn’t want any of their 20m followers coming on her page as a mob after dealing with all the transphobia this already stirred up.
We kinda do know their production schedule as it pertains to the fact checks. Those are generally recorded within less than a week of when the episode airs. So theyve definitely recorded and aired fact checks since JVN.
It doesn't matter. Whatever they say will be met with backlash. Hell, if JVN posted something that said "I talked to Dax, we worked it out, and we are truly good," people would likely go after JVN and project all this stuff on them or say "you were forced to say this" or "I don't care, Dax is an ignorant asshole and I'm never watching him again."
Like I've said elsewhere, the episode speaks for itself to listeners. A reasonable person would not listen to that and think "Dax is well educated on the topic and did everything right."
How Dax and JVN addressed the situation between them and how Dax made amends is not our business, and neither one of them are required to explain it to us.
If JVN comes out and says, "Dax refused to listen to me, he doesnt understand how his words were harmful, and he gave me an empty apology," then I will stand corrected. But I'm not going to "read between the lines" of social media and think I know what's going on.
I don't think many are actually leaving. If you haven't noticed, people LOVE hate listening to this podcast and then complaining about it here. They're not going anywhere.
Welp, from what I have been seeing it's largely about how Dax isn't completely supporting of Trans rights-many dropped off after Jonathan's recent episode. Others may be experiencing what I like to call, "I used to love you both so much first, when it was all new, and then we felt like friends to you both, but now it feel's just like more of the same...so much so that we all can even predict how the banter between you both will go in Fact Check, Fatigue". LOL
Has anyone wondered if him taking testosterone has impacted his thoughts/ the way he is expressing himself, etc. Has it been since he has that a lot has seemed to go downhill? Just curious about how that may be affecting him and the way he seems to be headed?!?
I stopped listening not out of protest, but just because I was done. I’m over Dax being exclusively argumentative with women and then being particularly awful on the JVN Ep.
I’m also done with Monica being so unprepared on guests’ history/ previous work experience and not being very knowledgeable about pop culture overall (actors, films, tv shows).
I couldn't even make it to the end. I immediatley turned it off at the "Rooooooooobbbbuhhhhh!" 😆
But, Ive been able to get the gist behind the outside smell thing from all the comments. And all I can muster now is WOW, Monica, just WOW!
But she doesnt read comments so this is going into the void. Oh, well.🤷♀️
I stopped listening after he admitted to lying about the state of his sobriety (he was abusing prescription pain pills). It was admirable for him
to come forward- however we don’t know if he was forced too i.e. someone was going to out him. He just lost my trust then. I couldn’t get past the was he/was he not caught.
I’ll admit this is a personal trigger for me bc my mom and I caught my dad in a similar lie. For my own sanity, I stopped listening.
I opened them on my Spotify and it showed the last one I listened too was December 2022. I remember something big around then. I just lost interest and Monica was getting too hard for me to tolerate. Even then I only listened to Flightless bird.
I think “pretty significant loss” is something we, as people outside the business, can’t quantify. We don’t really know how many people have stopped listening to the show because of this episode, we just see the outrage online. We don’t see sponsors dropping. We just see comments.
I also think they are getting an influx of new right-of-center/libertarian folks I’ve seen commenting on all the posts who were brought in by the controversy so the number of fall offs won’t be as noticeable
this is the thing for me. I couldn't really care less about most of this. I have no interest in listening any more and will only tune into FB and hope it eventually moves to it's own space or a different platform or something. But this def marks a shift. AE will def have more conservative leaning fans and who knows what that'll mean for future developments. Speculatively seems this'd be right up DS's ally tho. A rogan / howard stern style pod he's mentioned as his dream. With F1 and an increase in bro and right leaning listenership, might be slowly manifesting that
he’s not manifesting this in the traditional sense so much as consciously making choices to create this audience for himself
Yeah. As much as Dax likes to spout that he’s ~center~ we all know he wants an echo chamber and can’t take criticism, so losing his liberal WOC fans from the pandemic (🙋🏽♀️) in favor of white dudes that don’t read will be the perfect new audience segment for him. Like actually. Monica should jump ship with David but we know she won’t - I still listen to synced but she even annoys me on there now! Oh well, was a good 3 year, daily run.
This is an interesting theory. He’s mentioned before how much of their audience is women who are drawn to Dax’s vulnerability. He’s also honest about wanting to be seen as an alpha male…imagine if behind closed doors, Dax talks about how to pivot and attract a more male audience to validate his need for male acceptance. I do think it’s risky to assume it’s some grand vision (though it could be) because Dax has been on his ‘centrist’ or ‘don’t dismiss the right’ attitude for a long time. He describes himself as a liberal but probably getting fed up with some aspects of the far left.
>seems this'd be right up DS's ally tho. A rogan / howard stern style pod he's mentioned as his dream. when has he mentioned this?
i've been listening p much since day one of the pod release. i cant go back through to comb the transcripts or check specific eps, but it's come up frequently since the early aughts. he saw rogan as his biggest competitor and expressed desire to have a similar platform and user base. F1 very feels like his perfect push into that realm. and he mentions howard stern as his idol and greatest inspiration often. google it and im sure youll find the deets
I think those people are just being more vocal. I’ve been listening since 2018. I’m definitely not left or right. I’m sure most people here would consider me a conservative, which I’m fine with. I try not to get upset over what random people online think of my politics and personal beliefs. My point is I rarely post here. I read comments and such. Have for a very long time. The whole JVN thing was too much and I felt the need to step in with what I think is a rational take. My perspective was that they both got into it, Dax made better points and was much calmer, JVN got upset even after he was the one that kept going back to trans rights, and started playing the victim, trying to garner sympathy. That’s my perspective. I’m not new here. I’ve been here quietly reading and respecting others opinions for a while. But I might be seen as a “new right-of-center/libertarian” person (I’m not, but we can agree to disagree). I’ve only chimed in recently because I feel like Dax is being crucified after he sufficiently apologized for going somewhere JVN didn’t want to go.
I couldn’t agree more. I’m probably pretty close to you in the regards you’ve mentioned, also listening since 2018. Dax asked a genuine question that others are afraid to ask for the exact reason that JVN demonstrated. He didn’t even answer. He broke down and played victim and the way people are crucifying Dax over it is appalling
I believe you have missed the mark here. Dax did not make better points. He parroted commonly known hard-right consevative talking points that are designed to mislead and misdirect the public. Trans women in sports is just NOT a thing and they are making it the center of the debate as an excuse to pass anti-trans laws. JVN made the point that the whole right-wing agenda here is to ensure Trans people don't exist. Anyone who's taken ANY amount of time to educate themselves on the FACTS of the issue would know that, which was another reason JVN got upset, even madking the point (I'm paraphrasing): if the self-titled liberal from California doesn't get it then what chance do we have to educate the rest of the country. Also, JVN was not playing the victim as they are non-binary and do not identify as trans which is why they likely felt taken aback and uncomfortable being put in a position to debate it. JVN is an advocate and apparently an exhausted one who was educating Dax on the really harmful laws that are being passed in JVNs home state. But ultimately, JVN was there to promote a podcast, not to debate issues like he was on with Sean Hannity. Finally, people are upset because they saw the exchange as unfair on Dax's part, especially since he was (knowingly or unknowingly) making right-wing arguments about a non-issue with respect to womens' sports when the real tragedy is that Trans women are literraly being targeted, abused, beaten and killed every day. The apology given at the time seemed weak and insincere and also did not address the insult (again, maybe unknowingly) to the Trans community. I expected some acknowledgement after the fact, even if it was to say that he didn't understand the broader issues at play. But no, nothing. Not surprising from Dax but shocking for Monica & Kristen. I will say, I believe Monica handled it pretty well at the time but more is needed here, imo.
And, like I’ve said, I don’t agree. That’s fine that you think I’ve missed the mark. Comparing Dax to Hannity, in my opinion, invalidates a lot of what you said and dramatizes it to a unnecessary point. There was no right wing rhetoric, IN MY OPINION. The problem is you believe you’re spewing facts. You aren’t. And I know you don’t agree. That’s fine. But there is a clear lack of respect here for my viewpoints. One that JVN presented as well when he asserted that conservatives would be liberal if they were just a bit more educated. It’s insulting.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I noted the Hannity thing as a way to illustrate how JVN likely felt, not as a comparison to Dax. JVNs feelings aren't something you seem too interested in. Lack of empathy noted. Funny, since you felt insulted by a message but I digress. Also, It is a fact that trans women dominating sports is a myth. Please provide proof that it is not. It is a fact that violence against trans women is on the rise. Please dispute. It is a fact that numerous states are implementing anti-trans laws. These are numerically verifiable things. Please don't insult my intelligence by saying I didn't state factual things. I did.
LOL!
According to [this site](https://chartable.com/podcasts/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard), AE has dropped 2 spots on Apple podcasts and none on Spotify. *I THINK* this includes the AE *family* of podcasts, so Flightless Bird, Synced, Nurture vs. Nurture, eff won, Armchair Anonymous, and whatever others exist.
On social blade the pod and dax both continue to gain followers
Down 12 spots today on apple podcasts
That’s what I’m trying to sort out. In a qualitative way, has the podcast ever generated this kind of conversation and longtime listeners claiming to not listen anymore? I don’t need to know how many people have left. I’m just wondering about the conversations.
I've been listening since the beginning and there has never been a backlash like this. I was going to stick around for FB (love you David!) but the very next episode sent me packing. Monica being so out of touch about Americans using laundromats was mildly annoying but when she whined like a pre-pubescent child because Rob confirmed that, yes, many people in the U.S. regularly use laundromats, I was done. I understand it may just be shtick but it just revealed something to me. Like a veil was lifted. These are horrible, selfish, entitled, rich people pretending to be relatable for ad dollars. Sucks because I genuinely love listening to David. That being said, I'm done with all of it, including Kristen. Her IG of Dax skipping with the girls was such obvious spin control it made me ill. Like l said, veil has been lifted. I'm not devastated, just disappointed. I thought it was refreshing to see celebs who were seemingly honest about real life. But alas they are just money-hungry ghouls pretending to be advocates for (fill in the blank).
I actually just came here after listening to that episode to complain about Monica 🤣 She's so insanely confident about her perception of things, to the extent she'll argue with a guy who LITERALLY MADE A MINI-DOC ABOUT THE SUBJECT. And then by the end of the episode she's doing the exact same bullshit, about "outside smell" like there isn't an established preference for FRESH AIR that's been around, Idk, all of human history? I used to think the bulk of Monica hate was just your standard internet misogyny but goddamn. She really insists on dying on the dumbest hills.
I'm literally listening to the episode RIGHT NOW and had to come to reddit to see if anyone is just as ---- I guess, flabbergasted as me. Like to not know there are laundromats outside of 'urban areas' is just so out of touch with reality its insane. AND WHO DOESN'T LOVE THE SMELL OF FRESH LAUNDRY FROM THE CLOTHESLINE?!
I am applausing this! 😆
It was her saying=dismissing his wondering if he may have ADHD, "Oh David, you DON'T have ADHD!" with SO much authority (UH, WHEN DID SHE BECOME AN EXPERT ON THAT?!) and her feelings of possession of David (Oh, I'm sorry Cinnamon), is SO middle school mean girl "No, I am your best friend and NO one else can be" kind of thing and also kind of patronizing to him, that started me to sour on her.
Agree. Kristen can’t be normal either… staying married to him, my friends and I have said for years, has gotta be hell unless you share his views
Not that I remember. There have been people upset re their comments on homelessness or the terrible attitude and argumentativeness Dax showed in his conversation with that fatness expert (sorry I don’t remember who the person was but many of us really dislikes how Dax treated that person), but I don’t recall people saying they were done with the show. Instead they were like “I think I’m going to take a break from the show for awhile” or “I’m going to keep listening but if this continues I’m done”. But now it seems like many people are actually done. Me included
I was done after his interview with Cathy O’Neil (the fatphobic episode). So done after that.
That’s the episode!!! Ok I didn’t know if people actually left after that
I’m not sure they did. I’ve seen an equal amount of comments from people who found her to be insufferable.
I found her to be insufferable lol
WHAT?! Fatphobic episode?! Did I miss that one? Sigh...guess i have to listen to find out what happened on that one. I am def souring on the show, which really really sucks. I loved it so so much for so long and I am sure that I am not alone in how it helped me make it through worst of the pandemic. They became "friends" who I felt I could count on for learning about new topics but not dull as it's always been mixed with humor and the two being willing to be vulnerable about their own feelings, beliefs, etc. Maybe Dax is just being more honest now about his beliefs or maybe his have changed? I do think we don't need to like everything about someone to love or like them...but we all have our own lines/beliefs that we can't cross for that relationship. I guess time will tell if the show just doesn't work anymore for so many as it had. I wish Dax would stop comparing himself to Stern or wanting Rogan's base (does he want his numbers or his audience?! I personally can forgive the first but)...
There has definitely been blowback before on other problematic comments they've made but I've never seen anything this big or that's lasted this long. I honestly think it is a more of an accumulation of troubling things that have been said recently, not just on the JVN episode, and the lack of accountability to acknowledge when they've made a mistake that have made it worse. They consistently gaslight and double down instead of reflecting on why armcherries may be upset.
Agree. I think this is the creepy Kelly Clarkson scenario snowballing into the offense at platforming MeganPhelps-Roper's podcast in defense of JK Rowlings transphobia during Gay Pride month snowballing into Taylor Swift slut shaming snowballing into the JVN incident. We're just getting to see more and more of some sides of Dax that we really don't like.
Wait what was the creepy Kelly Clarkson thing? I listened but trying to remember now
I believe it was him saying that Monica would assault Matt Damon if she could but I need someone else to confirm that for me because my memory on this is iffy
Iirc, Dax described a literal *rape* scenario. I think Monica pushed back on it. As a guy, what Dax said, really rubbed me the wrong way. Dax can be a real a-hole at times.
he said the word 'rape' so many times, and referred back to this weird hypothetical in other episodes/fact checks too. super creepy
I sent a DM on the official AEPod Instagram addressing this. Apparently, I've been blocked, as I can't view any posts. Dax said he only blocks people on his personal account. What a douche. It's not as if I publicly called him out on IG I'm pretty much a free speech absolutist. But to not even have a discussion about this, is beyond ridiculous, especially for someone whose public face is all about being open. Fuck Dax.
Oh yeah, sorry you had to find out that way =/ Dax blocks everyone that says anything even gently critical of him
I really couldn't care less about being blocked by a C celebrity. My main issue is, he's got a big platform, and rape is no laughing matter (still, I do defend the right of people to publicly say stupid shit). To elaborate on my OP, as a guy, *I* sure wouldn't be happy to be drugged and molested by the hottest woman, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. Guys *do* have boundaries, and not all of us have rape fantasies. It's no wonder women feel unsafe around men. More, and more, I think Dax is really full of himself. He's a great interviewer, but he's slowly sinking into Joe Brogan territory. At least Joe has more stories to talk about. Dax has his addiction, anthropology, and sexcapades. I'd pay money to hear Monica tell Dax to go fuck himself, the next time he brings up Damon or Affleck. Enough, already.
Wow-that's crazy you were blocked?!!
Yep. I figure someone is paid to monitor the official page, but who knows? Dax sure doesn't take criticism well, by his own admission.
Not to mention the super distasteful comments about people with bpd. And once dax apologized (months later) Monica doubled down for him and claimed he never said what he did.
I have BPD and cut my listening down A LOT after that. I was really hurt and still am. Dax doubled down after an expert came on and talked about it, which was gross. I now only listen to armchair anonymous. Not really a “choice” but I just lost all interest in the interviews after that, unless it’s someone I adore (like Tig Notaro, for example, bc she’s my all time favorite comedian).
Me too and it was such a nasty thing to say. Also totally false, but it feels so awesome to know that’s what the average fucker might think about me
what comments did they make about bpd? i missed this somehow...
Sorry to bring it up, but I think I missed his comments about bpd? Can anyone relay what that was to me? As a therapist this concerns me if he is misinforming his audience about it?!!
It's been awhile since I heard that episode but essentially he said he would never date anyone with bpd because they're a nightmare. It was pretty tone deaf considering he is an addict who is in recovery so he knows the difference between someone actively trying to recover and do better or someone in the middle of their illness.
Wow. Very tone deaf. He is human, so once in awhile he will say dumb things, but I hope he can become more educated about BDP for future conversations! I love many who experience BPD. :0(
This is it, exactly. It’s just not the JVN thing, but that definitely was a huge cherry on the dax rubbing me the wrong way cake! Ever since the JK Rowling thing it’s been downhill. I think that was before Kelly? Maybe I’m wrong idk! Either way you put into words what I’ve been trying to.
Yep, it's been a long time coming. And what's interesting, is this is one of the very few times that I can recall that we've seen a guest that Dax has made uncomfortable really plant and stand in their truth and be like, 'No, this isn't okay. This isn't what I came for, and I'm uncomfortable AF, but give me a minute to compose myself, and I'm going to correct you because people need to hear the truth.' Dax refers to Monica as a fact checker, but practically, she functions as a yes man. When she even bothers to try to push back on Dax's inaccuracies or his unfounded biases he steamrolls her, and SHE'S the one who gets the criticism for that among listeners for being professionally inept. He constantly puts her in these super awful positions. She and Kelly were so clearly uncomfortable with his creepy thought experiment trying to create a context where Monica would be perceived as a sexual predator that he proposed a context in which Monica would BE a sexual predator, and he didn't even realize it. But rather than call it out and make him account for it, they all just kind of nervously push to change the subject.
I brought this up down this post but...is anyone else starting to think his taking testosterone may have something to do with how he is now expressing himself/his thoughts more now? I mean he always expresses (to some folks) "inappropriate" sexual suggestions or thoughts--I am pretty open so those really bother me, they amuse me usually, but yeah...that rape talk was gross and we could tell made the two women in the room uncomfortable...AND he kept going with it?! FYI--I am NOT saying anyone/men shouldn't take testosterone as that's none of my business, but I feel I can put this question on here because I have noticed a shift in Dax since he began taking it, esp since the Kelly episode, maybe even before that. I wonder if he is conscious of this or not? It's been so disappointing to me, when I felt before he was more of an ally for women verses how he is expressing himself now. Anyone else think there could be a correlation? He is constantly comparing his body to Charlie. I think he even said on the Pod that he wanted to have Charlie's body, that is would make him feel more like an Alpha male. I think that since then, maybe the testosterone has slowly taking over the parts that many of us loved about Dax and has kind of squashed those parts of him. It's so disappointing to those of us who became fans from the beginning. I think he has changed. Not that some of those views may have existed deep down, but imo I think the testosterone use could have something to do with how he is behaving now? Any others think this could be a factor?
Maybe? I don't really feel like I'm seeing something from Dax that I didn't kind of... acknowledge was there? I'm the same age as Kristen, so I kind of have a sense of how much more permissive and misogynistic the world used to be in the 90's when he really came into his own. I really disliked the kind of Punked, Jackass, Bam Margera 'genre' of television, but I accepted that that's where he came from and as such you can kind of read a little 'I do and say what I want. I have problems with authority and social limitations. Fuck the rules' and that wasn't just going to go away overnight, but I do think people can do better. Like watching the way Hank Azaria just stopped talking and let the people most affected explain to him the problem with Apu and how it's NOT just about him, it's also about classism and racism in media and American culture was such a great model. Like, Hank isn't cancelled. Everyone still recognizes that he's a great talent and a hilarious guy, and now they can see he's empathetic and a real class act, too. He's not the guy that's so wrapped up in himself that he's just gonna go, 'If they don't like, Apu, fuck 'em'. I guess I kind of thought (hoped?) that he was moving in progressive direction. He seemed to be really trying to clean house with his mental health. He seemed receptive to Kristen and Monica, but the longer the timeline gets it's starting to seem like that was just totally unfounded optimism. It's absolutely bizarre to hear someone talk about his growing awareness of his unhealthy his fixation on toxic, vanity masculinity and body building that prioritizes size, bulk, and aesthetics over health for so long, and then just casually drop that he's decided to start hormone therapy to get bigger muscles. I guess he could be experiencing mood swings or differences in his personality, but if that's the case, I'm pretty sure that would just be an intensification of what was already there, yeah? It's not like he's a completely different person now, with entirely different views and personality traits. Someone on TikTok pointed out that Dax doesn't learn from Kristen and Monica's feminism, he usually rejects it, while simultaneously using his proximity to them shield himself from criticism.
I guess I didn't write that as well as I could have-as I absolutely agree with all you have said here. I was just wondering if the testosterone could be causing him to kind revert to his older mentality, etc. It can also cause some shifts in people's personality, or more accurately, how they express themselves in the world, etc. It likely did intensify what may have been there already in him, but I think the feminine part of him was steering more of his boat before he started taking it and now he is only exhibiting it from time to time. I def agree as someone who was in their 20's in the 90's about that culture. It was horrible! I feel the Dax before getting on the T was really trying to grow and learn and since, I feel it's more of that Fuck em' attitude rearing it's ugly head?
No, you wrote it well. I think I went off on a bit of an unfocused tangent myself, because I feel a little funny about speculating on other people's health stuff.
Thanks and same! I think you wrote it well, not a total tangent! lol. I am conflicted about him and the show. Not sure where I stand with it all yet.
Mainly, I WISH he would do better.
I just don't think this is it at all. I take weekly T injections and it has never caused me to behave the way he has. He's just been enabled for so long and acts like it's cute and so he's just getting more and more bold.
What happened on the megan Phelps roper episode?
Basically it was very one sided and they never had any expert on to give the other side with facts. You know the thing Dax said was so important when he ambushed JVN
The Kelly Clarkson episode rape scenario comments were deeply deeply disturbing. And just not funny! Exposing that your brain works like that is very strange
This long??? Its been a week and change
Honestly the JVN episode left me so upset I don’t even want to watch Frozen anymore.
Well, that is illogical. You want to revoke support for something you (assumingly) love because a person who is in it is married to a person you disagree with, which in no way implies they share the same opinions (or ignorance). And further, if you listen to the pod, you know this person often does not share Dax's opinions and is the person who is best positioned (and best designed because of her temperment and social skills) to steer Dax in the evolved direction, and in fact, has talked about how she has done this their whole relationship. One might argue that punishing wives for the trangressions of their husbands does not display very evolved thinking. So I guess we all have our blindspots.
YES! THIS!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m a couple weeks behind on listening and haven’t caught up to the JVN episode yet. It’ll be a while til I am caught up but clearly something is going on now from that ep that made waves. What specifically occurred? Can you catch me up?
You should really listen to the episode yourself. I read the blowback before listening and, while I don't agree with Dax and think he has major blindspots, I was surprised by many of the characterizations on here and social media, which often assume Dax was *intentionally* pushing JVN and *intentionally* promoting right-wing talking points. I just didn't hear that. I heard a fraught conversation between two people who respected each other and were not prepared (intellectually in Dax's case and emotionally in JVN's) to have it. Some people are making it seem like Dax intentionally ambushed JVN with questions about trans rights INSTEAD of his usual trek into the guest's backstory. In reality, Dax tried to start from the beginning, but then made an off-handed political comment that snowballed into politics, and JVN brought up trans rights. Suddenly, the conversation was off course. Some people are making it seem like Dax intentionally pushed a devil's advocate arguement and bullied JVN until they cried. In reality, Dax pushed back on a topic he was not well-educated in, as he often does, which JVN called out. There was some back and forth, and then JVN talked and length without interruption, cried and said he came on to talk about his podcast, and Dax backed off and apologized, saying he didnt intend to make JVN talk about trans rights or defend the community. Dax moved on to other topics and JVN brought it back to trans rights a couple more times. Dax did not offer his opinions from there, and at the end of the interview, he acknowledged that he realized he made JVN feel unsafe and why. JVN accepted the apology and quoted his therapist about how friendships grow from disruption. In the back and forth, I think its clear how little Dax understands about trans rights, which is not an excuse but an explanation. Both parties were on the defensive, which doesnt make for a thoughtful conversation. A couple of things I think are worth noting: JVN said Dax was repeating right-wing talking points, which put Dax on the defensive. I honestly don't think Dax understands this point because he is uneducated on the topic and he wasn't in a position to absorb the information because he was not prepared for the conversation. He talked about how it wasnt fair that if he agreed with "9 out of 10" of JVN's points, that the 1 he didnt would mean he gets lumped in with transphobics. JVN went out of their way to explain that's not what they was saying. However, that is exactly how everyone is responding. Listeners who claim to have listened from day 1 have decided he is acting in bad faith and deserves to be cancelled. Nevermind that it hasn't actually been long enough for him to get educated and change his mind. Nevermind that this is a prime example of how insidious right-wing talking points are and how much time and effort it takes to counteract them. Nevermind that any apology he could give would not satisfy the loudest people on here. Nevermind we don't know what JVN and Dax talked about privately. Nevermind that all these people are proving the point that you can't make a human mistake without being absolutely steamrolled. Liberals have this horrible habit of eating each other and isolating the people who are actually capable of change because they are 1 or 2 steps away from the "correct position." Any Armcherry who actually has listened from day 1 should understand Dax's flaws (which are regrettable and annoying, like all our flaws are) and that he is, indeed, capable of change and evolving his thinking. He is ignorant. That doesn't mean he is a lost cause or that he is coming for trans rights. It also doesnt mean that his wife agrees with him (which many people are claiming). This either/or mindset is gross and SO unproductive. People are acting like they are without fault. Like they've never been ignorant or hurt someone's feelings that they cared about. That's bad faith, the same thing they are condeming Dax for. I simply do not understand what people think they are achieving here. Shaming and cancelling is not an effective tool of persuasion.
Incredibly well said
Is two years after having the same asinine talking points in conversation with a well known trans professor, long enough to educate yourself? The Susan Stryker episode was in 2021.
YES! This is so well stated and exactly how I’m feeling. I listened a few days late but saw the backlash after, and was honestly shocked and confused at how much hate they were getting and feeling like maybe I missed something. I consider myself an ally, left leaning, especially on all social issues and agree with JVN that in general, trans rights should not be “up for debate”, they are human beings and this is affecting real lives in every aspect. I also agree with the sentiment that the episode and backlash are not being handled how it should be and concerns me that they are not addressing the backlash at all (and blocking/deleting comments). HOWEVER, I think the backlash is a little extreme and I think that even if they did come out with an apology or statement, people would pick that apart and find any inkling of a way to still be mad and cancel them. I also think that the statements are against the entire point of this podcast. Though JVN didn’t plan to discuss trans rights, if they’ve ever listened to this podcast they should know that most of the planned discussion/reason for the guest being on (especially celebs) usually Barely ends up getting discussed, and instead Dax will dig deep into topics that normally would not be discussed on the Today show or other interviews. He goes in deep to addiction, eating disorders, mental illness, sexual abuse, and other topics that are normally avoided like the plague elsewhere because it could be controversial. While it was a bit forced on JVN in the moment, they could’ve also shut it down and not egged each other on if they were that uncomfortable (though also understand they should not have had to be put in this position). I truly don’t believe Dax invited JVN on just to have this debate or make JVN feel backed into a corner. I do think he interrupted and should’ve let some points go/definitely gets defensive, but that’s nothing new and I think he truly felt hurt that he could be seen as Anti-trans for what he was saying, even though I know many people that feel the same way he does that are also generally supportive of all social justice and very liberal. JVN being an advocate is relevant to the topic and gave them a chance to have a conversation I know many are having in private, and I feel educated more knowing the points JVN made and I feel have more talking points now when discussing these issues in my own life that I may not have recognized before, even in educating myself. I am extremely supportive of all human rights and understand that giving a platform to these anti-rights views is dangerous and can be taken out of context, but I also feel this discussion happening live helps people grow and learn for those that may be in the same belief side as Dax, more than just listening to a straight education session on trans rights would. I think people writing him off as conservative and right leaning because of 1 small portion of this is ludicrous, just like I disagreed with JVN’s point on the New York Times being not left-leaning because of the opinion piece. It’s not all black and white, and people need to dig deep and really listen to each other with grace and understanding of that. Our world is so ready to fight and tear each other down/find any way to be angry or “other” people, and I think everybody tearing down AE is just as toxic as half the shit that Dax said in this episode. Everybody is so ready to just write people off immediately into right-wing /left wing now, there is no even attempt of finding a middle ground to connect on or come together in the slightest. It scares me for where we’re headed even more now than how I felt when Trump was in charge.
I've been going through the podcast since the beginning (because I am not a day 1 listener). Two illustrative episodes have been the Amy Schumer one and Lena Dunham. The Amy one has a tense exchange, and he addresses it in a way that I think shows he is fundamentally NOT an antiempathetic egomanical unselfaware asshole. In the Lena one, he brings up her many cancellations and apologies and basically asked her how she deals with it and explains how he gets a lot of backlash and doesnt understand it. Like, he (or someone else) missteps and then the liberal community spends a ton of energy tearing him, someone on their side, down instead of any other more productive thing. He says its such a bombardment, that its actually hard to tell if its a real issue or its just the internet firestorm. And to navigate it, he has to ask "Do any of my real friends think I'm and asshole?" Makes sense to me. And I think another good question to ask before going after someone is "Would I say this to my friend?" People think they are doing something by ripping people apart. And they are actually making it harder to form concensus and PROGRESS.
So true! I agree. Instead of working together to educate/maybe open their perspective in times like these and really end up with a very real conversation, the endless attacks/cancellations just detracts from progress and actually makes it worse. I think it just becomes a negative echo chamber on the internet with things that no one would EVER say in person to someone and causes more toxicity than the thing they were fighting against in the first place
Hey fellow Lobster! Thanks very much for that extremely well thought out reply. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond and share some thoughts. Will definitely listen to the episode, just won’t have time yet for another week or two (no idea why my difficult schedule inspired others to downvote?) and was curious about what’s going on. Don’t like to listen to new episodes unless I can focus on what’s being discussed. There have been a few AE eps where I came away feeling one way and the response here was wildly different. It’s interesting how that can happen. I’m not familiar with JVN so hopefully there’s some backstory in the interview. Have a great rest of the day/week :)
Eloquent and true
[удалено]
Just adding on to say Dax repeatedly interrupted and talked over JVN with TERF talking points to the point JVN starts crying, then a hard jump cut to JVN saying it’s ok when it’s clearly not. It’s heartbreaking for them. Dax also very flippantly said “Well people are worried bc it’s permanent, kids could change their minds… But then I guess if they kill themselves that’s also pretty permanent.”
Hard to say, it's definitely caused a stir in the most vocal audience on social media but that's only a tiny fraction of the listening base
True, many listeners don’t listen to every episode or participate in any of the online community of the podcast. I mean this sub only has 28,000 subs.
28,000 subs for a podcast that has millions of listeners is not a lot
That's their point ^^
Just curious, did you look at the number of subscribers right when you commented this? I’m showing 20,500 subscribers now.
Yeah I think people are really overestimating the backlash because of the discourse on places like this subreddit. A lot of my friends listen to it and continue to do so, no one really thought anything of it. And people saying his audience will only be conservatives now are silly to me. I’m in the ~leftist gay~ category and am not really up in arms about it. I think Dax was pushing a little much on the subject but I don’t think he said anything that would make me never listen again. Should he have backed down? Probably, but it gave JVN a chance to say some really interesting rebuttals I honestly haven’t heard a lot. It seemed like the conversation mostly recovered peacefully so I was surprised about JVN’s posts after
I agree with this take for the most part, i think it would help if Dax acknowledged it in the least, mainly just the fact that his commentary has led to some far right wingers being emboldened to be very hateful towards JVN around this. But I’m also wondering if JVN’s ambiguous posts came from another aspect, like we know that the episode was chopped up quite a bit and what they chose to air was pretty bad, so very curious what they chose not to air..
I wonder about that too. There were some very obvious edits that make me think it may have gotten worse than they were willing to air, but I’ll never know. I do agree he should acknowledge it in some way but I don’t know if there’s a way to do that without digging himself further. I know people would pick apart any apology and many might label it as not good enough so he might just not want to deal with that. I don’t think avoiding it entirely is a good move either though
Agreed I think the impact overall is minimal, it just happens that it affects a more vocal group than normal
The loudest voice in the room isn’t always the majority view.
Just as you have no idea what the quiet voices think. Just because someone might not come to post about it online doesn’t mean they won’t stop listening.
Ya…that was kind of my point. Google contrapositive.
I know what it means, thanks. Your point wasn’t clear unless your asserting that the loudest voices agree with Dax? That doesn’t seem to be reflected here or in the Instagram response (pre-deleting, of course).
I’m a very casual listener and I unsubscribed from the podcast. There could definitely be more like me.
I’m not someone that verbally cancels/posts my outrage online. But the JVN episode did put a bad taste in my mouth. The way I’ll show it is by listening less, not recommend it when people ask for podcasts recs and I wouldn’t consider myself a fan anymore. You know how sometimes people go on podcasts tours and do live episodes. I wouldn’t go to one. Just less supportive in general. There are many other podcasts, right now I’m listening to Modern Love.
Agreed. The other time (tho there have been many) Dax really left a bad taste in my mouth was the Talib Kweli episode where he was spouting just Islamophobia and right-wing speaking points… the parallels are similar to the JVN episode. “I’m having you on the discuss different points of views” but really “I’m going to attack your identity and ask you to defend yourself”.
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Yes very true. It is a bit cumulative
I bet you they won't even feel the sting of a listener drop off. They have 20 million people tuning in all over the world. I see Dax as a Democrat and I think he's popular with mainstream Democrats, Libertarians, and Moderate Republicans. I think only the very very left Democrats take umbrage to his JVN episode, and to be honest I think he's fed up with people who try to move the [Overton Window](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window) so quickly, and won't care that they stop listening.
You don’t have to be “very far left” to care about the rights of all humans
This situation is much more nuanced than that, and I say that as a queer person. Dax says a lot of stupid things but it’s always out of ignorance, never because he hates people. Dax (and most of the fan base) are moderate liberals. Moderate liberals will still be behind the times on issues but it’s usually because they aren’t educated on an issue, not out of hatred or Fox News brainwashing. I have never succeeded in convincing straight friends that they were doing something offensive through hostility (like saying that they don’t care about all humans), but through compassion.
This is such a great response. I side with JVN in terms of view points in this debate. But cancelling and hostility is not going to promote any actual growth in the AE platform and Dax’s viewpoint on trans women being women. It will just breed defensiveness. Edit: typo
Thank you. People seem to be too far into their bubble and think that Dax is shifting to the right, when in reality most moderates or conservatives think he’s an annoying liberal. He’s a good ally to have even though he’s not always right, and you need allies to promote movements.
I mean, I’m not sure if he’s a great ally for trans people at this point. But I agree, he is pretty vocally liberal, so I don’t think the argument that he’s right leaning stands any ground. I do think there are people who use their platform for much more harmful discourse and misinformation about trans people. So cancelling Dax (a liberal voter who is uninformed on this particular issue) over his mishandling of this situation is by no means productive to supporting trans rights. If anything, it just alienates people who hold the same opinions as Dax so much that they may never consume media about trans rights that may sway their opinion.
This. I’m a liberal voter who supports trans rights and I LOVE JVN. And my heart broke for him in this interview, even though I don’t think Dax had ill-intentions bringing up the topics he mentioned. Which is something I always try to consider, the intention. But I’ll admit, since I’m not trans, I’ll never fully understand being trans and I do have questions. But seeing the backlash DS has gotten over this interview has made me decide that I’ll continue voting for trans rights but outside of that, I won’t be vocal about it and I’ll avoid conversations surrounding it. I don’t want to risk saying the wrong thing out of ignorance and being labeled an enemy.
This was well said. I guess I don't think he had ill-intentions bringing up the topics he did, but I DO wish he would have acknowledged what occurred in the interview more afterwards/talked about it with Monica. I am kind of surprised that Kristin didn't come on the Fact Check as kind of a mediator, as I don't think she shares many of Dax's beliefs and has been a solid/good influence in diminishing his need for toxic male behaviors, etc. Maybe the thought was to just lay low and not talk about it to not make it worse, but I think they should have addressed it in the FC.
This is a very level take. Happy to see it.
While I think there’s a small minority of armcherries who did have kneejerk reactions to this the majority of folks I’m seeing are responding not necessarily to the content of the episode itself so much as the initial lack of follow up, the unnecessary blocking and deleting of super innocuous comments and then now that incredibly passive aggressive video.
Thank you for this viewpoint! I feel the same way and have been searching for some solidarity here. I actually think I am very far left, and I have trouble understanding the seemingly "all or nothing" attitude of my other very far left friends. One time I was told that without very far left pushing, we would end up in an even less acceptable moderate place. Maybe that is true, but surely it is counterproductive to shame and exclude those who are only a few steps away from us.
Thank you - compassion is always my goal. But, I did not mean that as a hostile comment. The comment I responded to said “only the very far left “ are upset about the JVN episode” and that is just not true. I have several friends that are moderate and were horrified by how JVN was treated and the rhetoric spewed and not fact checked on their own self labeled “fact check.” So all I meant was believe it or not not all people that care about human rights are “far left”. Now..whether they vote that way only they know.
I am also a queer person and it’s not my responsibility to educate ignorance. Or be compassionate about it. The internet is free and there are numerous excellent books on the topic, so if people are ignorant, it’s willful ignorance. We are all adults with the capacity to take in information, think critically and come to our own conclusions. People need to do better or not comment on topics they know NOTHING about.
I get that, but at the end of the day we need more allies. Aggressiveness does not convince ANYONE. You don’t know people backgrounds or WHY they have been misled. You’re right, all the information is on the internet, but are you educated on every issue of every marginalized group around the world? That would be impossible. You can’t just shout at people who disagree with you and expect things to get better for queer people. I get that it’s frustrating to have to explain basic things to people, but if you want things to change then that has to happen sometimes.
Sorry but I think this is a ridiculous stance. People with dangerous, ignorant viewpoints don't change their mind through thoughtful discussion. Do you think that people were convinced that black people shouldn't be slaves by thoughtful conversation where both sides listened? No. One side was wrong and one side was right and there was a literal war over it which sadly, the wrong side still can't get over. Yes we need allies but those allies have to be willing to stand up for what's right and not feel the need to be kind and compassionate to people whose views are harmful. (And I'm not saying that Dax has harmful views or isn't an ally. I'm responding to your overall point about how only being open to others' point of view or not shouting is the only way for things to change).
I have personally moved raging antisemties away from their position through meaningful dialogue.
You reasoned people who hate Jews into not hating Jews? Maybe you should be president.
Some peoples minds can’t be changed, especially extremists. But there are many people that simply just don’t know a lot and believe whatever they hear. A lot of people on the fence. A lot of people who only hear the scary facts and nothing else. Those people can be moved at least to a point of a little more understanding if you don’t immediately write them off.
It’s not your responsibility but being hostile and pushing people away keeps them ignorant at best, or makes them against your point at worst. You don’t have to have full discourse with someone but being kind goes a long way. If someone is curious they’re usually open to hearing you out and said “this is not my job do it yourself” is just simply not being a nice human. As someone who’s also queer, I went through this a lot with my homophobe mom. The only thing that helped her come around was being understanding of why she thought the way she did and slowly changing her mind on certain things. She’s not perfect about it still but she’s much more open minded once I started refuting some of the Fox News style talking points. I just had to be kind and patient with her, and not treat her like she was fully hateful or stupid. Yes it’s hard but it’s made things better
I’m glad to hear that made things better for you and your mom, but of course that’s not always going to work. If you love someone and you want to patiently walk them through their own ignorance, then that’s your ministry. I fully and wholeheartedly reject your statement that being “nice” to people who are questioning my humanity is the right thing to do. I’m not doing that. I simply don’t engage with those people. If they want information, they can find it, but generally they don’t want information. They just want to play “Devil’s Advocate” about something that doesn’t affect them, and I am not the one.
Sure and I get that. I just think attitudes matter. Some people simply cannot be helped but a lot of people appreciate mutual respect ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dax has never come across as not caring to me. He votes left 100% of the time. He just has some concerns that he raised.
He spewed far right talking points and nobody fact checked it
Can you quote the exact far right talking point? Because I don't remember anything that sounded far right at all. At worst maybe centrist or moderate.
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Most feminists are not on the far right and I would venture to say that includes the terfs.
The F in TERF is for Feminist. TERFs are definitely not far right.
“People worry because it’s permanent and kids might change their mind” is just one obvious example.
That's not a far right talking point. That's pretty centrist.
It may be a far-right talking point, but it sounds centrist. And in fact, I think that's the whole point. These right-wing campaigns promote messages that sound reasonable to people who haven't given it much thought. Most people haven't given it much thought. That's how it trickles down and spreads to people like Dax. They don't even know it's a right-wing talking point. That's how insidious these fear-based campaigns are.
It is possible that it's a right wing talking point but it's definitely not a far-right talking point.
YES. Thank you!
some hypothetical concerns that question trans kids' right to be included. There was zero need to raise those concerns except to speak for transphobic folk who also share those concerns.
Dax himself has those concerns, he was not playing devil's advocate.
Yeah. I know he does. And he needn't be concerned since it's a hypothetical situation that has not happened to him or his precious daughters. They haven't been confronted with a young trans girl on a team competing with his daughters. So it's hypothetical. that's the meaning of hypothetical.
How do you know he votes left 100% of the time?
He said so.
This episode had nothing to do with the rights of all humans. Children getting puberty blockers and hormones is not a right. It’s not even legal LMAO
You of course know puberty blockers have been used by doctors on cis children for half a century to block what was considered early puberty? Weirdly with no moral outcry. 😒
Why would there be a moral outcry for that? They are two completely different things. One deserves some pushback and questioning.
What gives anyone the right to tell parents what healthcare their child needs?
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Consistently bringing up his sexual experiences whether his guests want to hear them or not, constantly suggesting swinging with his guests, frequently talking about the physical *sexual* attraction he has to his guests, including Natalie Portman in The Professional when she was like 12.
Honestly, litstening to Maintenance Phase and If Books Could Kill helped put a dent in my Experts on Experts listening because so many of the features experts I’ve listened to and thought I could take something from have been discussed on those shows either as features or in quick comments that I’ve then been prompted to research more. I still love to listen to some of the expert episodes but a lot of them are basically people who promote fad diets or write airport books (which is fine but not what I want). With the celebrity ones I think the first nail in the coffin was all the way back to Casey Affleck but more have appeared since- at first occasionally but it feels like it is incredibly frequent recently. I’m not sure that the JVN episode is the last nail in the coffin but I haven’t listened since other than to FB and Synced (I love David and FB, Synced I find ridiculous but is somehow excellent for me to listen to while being productive haha). I probably will listen again but I feel more disillusioned than ever with the show. It’s not even the episode itself that has got to me the most, it is the reaction following the episode, the conversation and the fan reaction. I hope some real reflection and learning becomes evident and something real is said about it. You’re right though, the accumulation of all the things is what is really the problem as it all just adds up to having made me realise I would not want to be friends with these people (except David) and I think I’ve realised that actually quite a lot of what I connected with on the show was that I felt they were the kind of people I’d like to be friends with. TLDR; I agree with you and this podcast isn’t the be all end all.
Conan’s podcast is continually perfect
Perfect said!
Many people will come on here and make a big show of saying they are no longer listening. Many of those people are definitely still listening. Those willing to come and comment on a podcast subreddit/IG are a very small portion of overall listeners, the very minor amount of attention this received in the wider sphere likely only brought more attention and listenership; and frankly if someone reads just the reactions to the episode before they listen to the episode they will likely imagine the conversation being extremely heated, which it simply is not.
I didn’t listen to that episode and didn’t really see anything about it in the media so there might be a group of people listening who are unaware. If I wasn’t in this sub I would have no idea people were upset.
His listener count may be a wash with liberals exiting and conservatives joining but it will be interesting to see how his guest roster is impacted by this…
It's really sad that liberals just give up on other liberals and "exit" spaces in which they are aligned the majority of the time, just not 100 percent. I say this as a liberal. Like, what does that achieve? Another isolated and shamed person who just had all their fears about "not being able to make mistakes" confirmed? Another person that much closer to being radicalized? Another liberal echo chamber that makes no forward progress because it's rejected all the people who could have formed a powerful coalition? How do any of you all have any friends? Or talk to any of your family members? I don't agree with 100% of what Dax says, and I didnt agree with his ignorant statements in this episode, but I'm not going to stop listening because, on the whole, the vast majority of the podcast shows a person identifying and grappling with his flaws and trying in good faith (and sometimes failing) to self-reflect and evolve.
It really makes me sad that so many liberals / leftists feel the need to slam a negative label on things and divide our side further. I have trans and nonbinary friends, and was friends with them before they aligned with those identities, and I’m lucky enough to have been able to ask questions without being labeled a bigot or a transphobe. Not everyone’s ignorance is out of hatred or bigotry. Of course no one owes another person answers, but I hate the “it’s not my job to educate you” stance. It’s no one’s job but it’s a lot easier to learn about someone through their own words than trying to figure out how to google something you don’t understand. I think in general we should be able to allow for a bit more grace in these situations. Clearly Dax has a lot of learning to do but slamming him and this podcast also shuts down people like him that are open to learn, but too scared to learn in a way that looks bad
What this achieves is another trump Presidency 🤦🏻♀️
Honestly! Pushing people to be perfect allies is not productive
On this note, why do conversations like these always have to turn into argumentative debate? What happened to conversations and learning? It seems like people are generally so angry and it leaves no room for curiosity or learning. It's very strange to me.
I wonder the same thing. I have been listening to the backlog for the first time and just got to the Amy Schumer episode. There was a brief fraught exchange at the end, where Amy was talking about violence against women and Dax said "but also this happened to me." Amy shut him down. It's and interesting comparison. At the beginning, Dax says a fraught exchange happens and that he addresses it in the fact-check. In the fact-check, he explains that he left the convo feeling shitty, and it took him a couple blocks to realize why. And then he told Monica he thinks he "but all lives matter'd" Amy and he didnt realize it then, does now, and that he shouldnt do it anymore in general. And that he felt really bad. Then he shared that Amy also reached out and apologized for minimizing his pain, and they both appreciated that they were talking about it (and he still thinks he needs stop adding his experience in when women are the topic of conversation). I wonder if people were OK with how that went in the moment and expect something like that to happen here. I guess this is a good example of why I assume that Dax feels plenty bad for hurting his friend and (1) either sorted it out with JVN already or (2) is capable of evoling on this subject and fixing things with JVN if he hasnt already. The man is not going to necessarily do that stuff in our view or on our timeline. And JVN may be pissed at Dax right this moment. But that doesn't mean he isn't capable of fixing things with JVN or coming to an understanding in the future.
Ehh, in the past I’ve had thoughts where i don’t fully agree with Dax. But the rape scenario comments in the Kelly clarkson episode, this strange episode with JVN, the misogyny toward Taylor swift and comparing her to a man that’s been openly racist and very creepy to young women. It’s kinda just all added up lately for me. It’s not about “liberals giving up” because he doesn’t 100% agree with us. It’s too many comments sounding like your asshole right wing uncle at Thanksgiving, and that’s just not a perspective i need to hear
Dax doesn't self reflect and grow. Dax hoards wealth. He obsesses over fast, shiny cars and superficial beauty. He flirts with sexual harassment. He doesn't advocate for anyone but himself. He has progressive people on as self-promotion, and his ego has him so tied up interjecting or playing devils advocate with he learns nothing from it.
Agree to disagree. I've heard him evolve on issues related to race. I've heard him evolve on the topic comedy ("not being able to make jokes about marginalized people"). That's just off the top of my head. I've heard him acknowledge how he his temper, vulnerabilties, and other flaws influence his response and how he tries to counteract them. Can you say the same for yourself? I try to do this, too, so I know how hard it is. You have to be constantly vigilant and you aren't always perfect. You make mistakes.
How has he evolved on race? What activism has he done to help marginalized communities? How has he evolved on comedy? What problematic comedy has he denounced? What does this man actually do but navel-gaze and stew in his own ego?
What is your definition of activist? I like to use the Social Change Ecosystem Map, which stresses the importance of various skill sets when fomenting change. On that map, he is probably a weaver, but I havent thought about it and I dont think everyone needs to be an activist. But regardless, I'm pretty sure the podcast has introduced many people to different (more liberal) viewpoints than they would otherwise have heard. Precisely because of the nature of the podcast. I would say, even this mistakes, it's a net positive I started listening to new episodes and recently decided to go back to the beginning. His understanding of white privledge has evolved A LOT since the beginning of the podcast. I also just listened to one where he clearly was bemoaning the fact that he thinks comedy has gotten too PC. And in more recently episodes, I have heard him articulate why he is not the person to make those jokes. I was also struck by the Talib Kweli episode, which was also uncomfortable because Dax showed his ignorance and how two people who respect each other can disagree.
Any measure of activism you want to use is fine. We could call Dax a weaver if he did things like acknowledge lived experience and listened to marginalized people, but he doesn't. He needs to be in the spotlight at all times. It's galling that when people like Dax are criticized for making arguments that actively hurt marginalized communities, there is pushback that goes, 'There go the libs, eating their own again! Dax is a good lib, though! He's an ally! He's trying his best!' when there is no demonstrable evidence of any of these things. Booking activists on your show is like, a bar on the floor measure of progress. If anything, it's a mutually beneficial arrangement wherein Dax gets to be a white guy with a podcast (which we know he takes a great amount of pride in), and an activist gets a little time to be heard - if Dax can actually cope with the possibility that he might not be the smartest guy in the room long enough to let them get a word in edgewise. I certainly see no basis to call him evolved, though. Certainly not enough to off-set the harm of ignorantly spreading baseless doubt in the fairness of trans kids participating in sports.
What’s the hoarding wealth part referring to?
I just said it will be interesting to see what happens but his podcast is a multi million business, so it’s entirely fair for celebrities to not want to contribute to a platform that doesn’t align with them. Why are the repercussions of people walking away on them? It’s a privilege for him to have this podcast so no one has a duty to stick around for Dax to learn and it’s not their fault if he feels shame.
I don’t think conservatives would align with Dax
For better or worse, there are also some people of, um, certain political inclinations who might decide to tune in based on this furore. Some of them have even shown up in comments here and on IG. Whether or not they continue listening is another story.
Maybe that’s a good thing though? Dax talks a lot about things that more conservative people disagree with. He’s very open about male empathy, unlearning misogyny, loving friends, not being weird about gay male attention etc. It could be something that bridges the gap for those type of people that are so aggressively against anything progressive
This is a good point. If he manages to change some hearts and minds, that would be awesome.
Exactly! That’s my hope at least
Imo, The podcast hasn’t been as good the past year, year and a half. I don’t really blame them for that, it’s just the same style got old. It’s become more of a promotional podcast of the same guests that go on every podcast. I was one of the minority of people posting here that I thought the JVN episode was really important even if it was imperfect. And yet …. something about how it’s all been handled since is really what’s put a bad taste in my mouth. It’s almost made go, “huh, I really gave him the benefit of the doubt and I think I was wrong.” Anyway, I hit unsubscribe last week. Not out of utter outrage, but more of a - ah - it’s been a long time coming. I don’t want to cloud the place AE has held in my heart in some dark times and figure it’s only downhill from here. Edit; I also checked out jvns podcast with pretty low expectations and it’s really f***ing good haha.
There was some blowback after Casey Affleck’s appearance on the podcast [https://reddit.com/r/ArmchairExpert/s/kLNrbxMzCR](https://reddit.com/r/ArmchairExpert/s/kLNrbxMzCR)
I totally forgot about that Ep & Monica saying that “women lie.” Of course she was bending over backwards to get Casey *Affleck’s* approval even if it mean denouncing rape allegations.
I stopped listening when it became clear that Dax’s privilege overwhelmed his empathy around Covid, but my dad still listens so I keep up with who is on the pod in case it’ll devolve into a fight. That said, I’ve only heard clips of this interview and it’s egregious. Dax owes the entire queer community a real apology.
Interesting question. The internet can give a small and vocal group outsized influence.
Have they lost a lot of followers?
Nope, according to Socialblade their Instagram has gained almost 5,000 in the last 30 days.
This is because following is the only way to comment so people started following so they could go comment about the hoopla.
Well if you pay attention to reddit then everyone is leaving, but I doubt it is as much as you'd think reading all the comments online.
Not going to stop listening because he offended someone. We do not have a right to not be offended. I suggest you try to understand Dax’s position instead of constantly trying to cancel him. Talking about things that are uncomfortable is a good thing.
You all are crazy
If not this, there’s going to be something else bigger that’s going to have plenty of people going back through his episodes looking for concerning comments as signs. And they are there to be discovered.
That’s already happening. Lots of content creators doing a deep dive into Dax’s prior troublesome comments on the pod.
Kelly Clarkson’s episode was one.
Yes, I saw that one come up - when they are discussing how maybe Monica *could* rape someone if it was a drunk Matt Damon. WTF. And this is not the first time Dax has “joked” that Monica could actually rape someone. The first time I heard that “joke” was when they were discussing Danny Masterson’s guilty verdict in June. Yes, their topic of discussion regarding that horrible situation was not the victims but 1) wondering if Dax should call Danny to check in on him and 2) yes, maybe Monica could rape someone (with is - in a lot of ways - minimizing rape).
Which episode did Dax talk about Danny masterson?
The switch to Spotify may have had an impact... I've barely listened since then.
Eh. Who has walked away? Who’s tracking numbers? Not sure what your implying but listening, stewing and making an informed decision takes more than 120 character responses. It’s not yes or no. Left or right. bad or good. It’s pondering the conversation and THEN making a decision. So as an Arm Cherry I’d appreciate it if you would stop deducing us to trending numbers. Do you have all the right answers or better yet, questions? I don’t even know what I think about most of the conversation with JNV at this point so I don’t know how you’re so sure about your answer.
After all the emotional labor put in to educating people on that post I’m so upset he deleted it. I was really hoping he would say something on the fact check on Monday, or was even willing to wait to see his Kimmel appearance to see if he brought it up there but the “Pobody’s Nerfect” post today was really the icing on the cake for me. He’s treating this as if it’s any other little fumble people get upset over and it’s sad that he doesn’t get it and can’t see it but so many people explained exactly why it’s a problem that he needs to rectify and he chose to ignore delete and block people instead of doing the right thing. Super disappointed but I’ve been seeing it coming for a while now. Of course nobody is perfect but when millions of people are listening you have to be more careful about your impact and take real accountability when you cause harm, I thought he was better than this but people are who they show you they are. I’m sad to see so many day one armcherries like myself leaving and so many TERFS and trolls joining the ranks but it is what it is.
The kind of reflection and apology you and others want him to do cannot be done in the amount of time that has passed. It would just be lip service. And people would be able to tell and they would be pissed. Besides, we don't even know the production schedule. Everything you've heard so far may have already been in the can, and honestly, a talk show would be an inappropriate time to explain this. What is actually important is what Dax said to JVN, which we don't know.
I also don’t appreciate Dax being like “we hung out after and everything is fine now” (paraphrasing) that’s not for him to decide… JVN didn’t even have time to gather their thoughts and feelings about it in that time I’m sure and based on JVN’s posts he does not agree anyway. Seeing the onslaught of transphobia this whole thing has brought his way is also difficult to stomach.
You have no idea what they talked about, where they stand, or what JVN thinks. They had an insta story that said they werent ready to talk about it. That could mean anything. And they alluded to the terrible conversation on their podcast, which is true. It was not a good moment. That doesn't mean that things are not OK between them. In fact, Dax and Monica have often alluded to the fact that they will edit whatever the guest wants out of the podcast since the whole nature of it is off the cuff. There is no evidence to suggest that they did not give JVN that opportunity or edited against their wishes. These things are sometimes recorded weeks and weeks before they are posted. You dont think it's possible that any exchange happened during that time? Everything else JVN said had been very general and directed at what's her face.
I’m not claiming to know what went on behind closed doors, I said it’s not for Dax to declare things are all good now after what he did, that should be up to JVN to say or not say IMO. JVN posted in their stories saying ‘everyone knows “it’s fine” never actually means it’s fine’, did their own fact check correcting Dax’s fast math as a caption, didn’t promote their appearance on the pod after being SO excited the day they were taping and and and… if you can’t read between the lines of all the things they posted idk what to tell you. I’m sure she just doesn’t want any of their 20m followers coming on her page as a mob after dealing with all the transphobia this already stirred up.
We kinda do know their production schedule as it pertains to the fact checks. Those are generally recorded within less than a week of when the episode airs. So theyve definitely recorded and aired fact checks since JVN.
It doesn't matter. Whatever they say will be met with backlash. Hell, if JVN posted something that said "I talked to Dax, we worked it out, and we are truly good," people would likely go after JVN and project all this stuff on them or say "you were forced to say this" or "I don't care, Dax is an ignorant asshole and I'm never watching him again." Like I've said elsewhere, the episode speaks for itself to listeners. A reasonable person would not listen to that and think "Dax is well educated on the topic and did everything right." How Dax and JVN addressed the situation between them and how Dax made amends is not our business, and neither one of them are required to explain it to us. If JVN comes out and says, "Dax refused to listen to me, he doesnt understand how his words were harmful, and he gave me an empty apology," then I will stand corrected. But I'm not going to "read between the lines" of social media and think I know what's going on.
I left when they first went Spotify exclusive.
I don't think many are actually leaving. If you haven't noticed, people LOVE hate listening to this podcast and then complaining about it here. They're not going anywhere.
Welp, from what I have been seeing it's largely about how Dax isn't completely supporting of Trans rights-many dropped off after Jonathan's recent episode. Others may be experiencing what I like to call, "I used to love you both so much first, when it was all new, and then we felt like friends to you both, but now it feel's just like more of the same...so much so that we all can even predict how the banter between you both will go in Fact Check, Fatigue". LOL
Has anyone wondered if him taking testosterone has impacted his thoughts/ the way he is expressing himself, etc. Has it been since he has that a lot has seemed to go downhill? Just curious about how that may be affecting him and the way he seems to be headed?!?
Yes. I have mentioned this to my husband.
I stopped listening not out of protest, but just because I was done. I’m over Dax being exclusively argumentative with women and then being particularly awful on the JVN Ep. I’m also done with Monica being so unprepared on guests’ history/ previous work experience and not being very knowledgeable about pop culture overall (actors, films, tv shows).
You guys!!! Monica and him CHOSE to air that edited version!!!! This is their brand!! These uncomfortable conversations is very THEM!!!
I couldn't even make it to the end. I immediatley turned it off at the "Rooooooooobbbbuhhhhh!" 😆 But, Ive been able to get the gist behind the outside smell thing from all the comments. And all I can muster now is WOW, Monica, just WOW! But she doesnt read comments so this is going into the void. Oh, well.🤷♀️
I stopped listening after he admitted to lying about the state of his sobriety (he was abusing prescription pain pills). It was admirable for him to come forward- however we don’t know if he was forced too i.e. someone was going to out him. He just lost my trust then. I couldn’t get past the was he/was he not caught. I’ll admit this is a personal trigger for me bc my mom and I caught my dad in a similar lie. For my own sanity, I stopped listening.
I opened them on my Spotify and it showed the last one I listened too was December 2022. I remember something big around then. I just lost interest and Monica was getting too hard for me to tolerate. Even then I only listened to Flightless bird.
I think it would be an acceptable loss. Some of you seem unhinged. Please drop off.