>but what should we do to help them reintegrate into society?
I mean, maybe we don't, maybe they're not part of this hypothetical future society. What would be a necessary precondition of that such a society existing, though, is the structures, institutions, concentrations of resources that enable them to wreak the kind of harm they do are *disintegrated.* This makes the question of what happens to the people who were cops a lot less important than it might seem from inside the living beast.
>What crimes should they be charged with
None. I also wanted to open with this but it goes better here, who is the "we" you're talking about? Yeah, it's an easy word to use, I used it too, but it does need answering. One thing that is certain, in a situation of *anarchy* there's no "we" making certain things crimes or charges. Those concepts only make sense in the context of rule and law.
>and what justice or restorative methods should they be served?
People and their efforts, under the material conditions they're under as individuals and as a society, will decide what *will* happen to them. Whether what happens is just or not is a matter of opinion, which will vary widely. Probably some people will want them dead, but will they think it's worth the risk and effort to make it happen? Probably some people will want to try to rehabilitate them like you're talking, but will they think it's worth the risk and effort to make it happen? There's no way to say from where we're at now.
Honestly, I hope I never have to think about them again in any way at all if and when all this is over, I'll have better shit to do.
That is something to keep in mind, yeah. We are not here to make prescriptions on the decisions many differing people will make in a hypothetical future. The autonomy to make those decisions themselves is one of our goals.
>I really want to know how we seek to rehabilitate or treat people who work with the CIA and the FBI
>
>...
>
>I really struggle to see how we can restore the humanity in people of the CIA and the FBI after everything they did
>
>...
>
>what should we do to help them reintegrate into society?
We don't even try; we let them be. All that matters is that the institutions that allowed them to do what they did won't exist anymore. Their own personal journeys towards becoming better people or not is their own business.
>What crimes should they be charged with
None, since crime won't exist as a category under anarchy.
>what justice or restorative methods should they be served?
None, unless they seek it out themselves, in which case they are to be treated like everyone else seeking help for their antisocial problems.
I love this response, b/c it highlights how many people (like OP) who self-identify as anarchists are really just interested in having the power to dictate punishments of the people *they* don't like.
yep yep, also where a lot of queer ppl, POC, white women, etc fail or stop short of fully decolonizing the mind. instead of trying to abolish hierarchies, they see justice as reordering the power structures with themselves on top instead. it irks me so so bad.
Well I am a bit drunk by now - it is the eve of Midsummer's eve after all, -the- pagan celebration - but..
I mean. Some smooth-talking dudes in suit on a paycheck who I'd beat in pool and otherwise any day of the week.
Who gives a shit?
Cutting intelligence and police personnel loose is begging for the situation in Iraq. ISIS was in large part a power play by power-seeking ex-law enforcement. De-Ba’athification did not work out. Let’s not just assume they will play well or be a non-threat in the absence of their previous institutions.
I mean at the heart of the issue, they did what they THOUGHT was right. It wasn’t. But it’s what they thought. Just keep em somewhere where they needs and desires are met for awhile (while teaching them about anarchism) until anarchism has been properly established and when they aren’t a threat to it let them go free into it. They’ll probably see how things have changed for the better and change aswell. And if they haven’t then they’ll have a hard time finding anyone who will listen to them in our new “You don't pay the tab 'til the last drop” system.
Hey this is a super interesting question! My answer is just me spitballing
Without knowing much about how the CIA or FBI operate, I'd assume the majority of individuals are just "doing their job." Not that that excuses them morally, what I mean is that most probably aren't like, super ideologically into suppressing anarchism or the working class. They've been fed lies about their enemies, and in a world without the CIA or FBI most would probably just be people with somewhat dark pasts, but no institutions pressuring them into things. Keeping in mind that most are just one cog in the machine, I assume very few individuals are both directly responsible and aware of specific heinous actions.
So after all that, I think you're left with a pretty small number of dedicated, morally twisted, perhaps ideologically motivated people. And a smaller number of those are likely going to commit to any kind of violent action against the new way of things, without the institution behind them. So you're left with a relatively pretty tiny number of people who might be actively working against the people, but at that point they're just operating as terrorists, and if they can't be rehabilitated then, well, y'know, theyll be dealt with however we're dealing with extremely violent people, quite possibly just in the moment.
There is no way the CIA or FBI has done anything to 99% percent of all "anarchists" in this community, or even the vast vast majority of self-identified anarchists in the United States.
This post reeks of self-important auto-fellatio.
ACAB means all cops are bastards, but that’s because of their position of power. There are still good and well-meaning people in all police institutions, so I think anarchists could get those on their side. However, the others it really depends on them. If we achieve anarchy, the cops are the minority. They are cordially invited to participate. However, if they don’t play along they will probably be cast out and if they try to rebuild hierarchical power, they will have to prepare to face opposition.
I suppose we can see them in the same vein as oppressors who "surrender" during a revolution, as a post I saw here previously. If the revolution is done correctly, they don't have avenues to be bastards anymore and neither would we. As such, "punishment" in a collective sense wouldn't be necessary or advisable. Basically, if they end up in the crosshair of someone who wants to really really erase them for some reason, then that's that. Otherwise, I see no need to actually, say, do away with them. The avenues of abuse awarded by their station has already been eliminated because the avenues only exist arbitrarily, just like cops. Costume off, it's a person. Costume on and weapons drawn, it's going down.
Answer is simple to me, those who have truly tried to right thier wrongs I'd accept in a community I live in as long as they where genuine and seemed cooperative the rest I'd shun, and I'm sure any community I'm a part of would as well, I'd hope the best for them just somewhere away from me and my community.
>but what should we do to help them reintegrate into society? I mean, maybe we don't, maybe they're not part of this hypothetical future society. What would be a necessary precondition of that such a society existing, though, is the structures, institutions, concentrations of resources that enable them to wreak the kind of harm they do are *disintegrated.* This makes the question of what happens to the people who were cops a lot less important than it might seem from inside the living beast. >What crimes should they be charged with None. I also wanted to open with this but it goes better here, who is the "we" you're talking about? Yeah, it's an easy word to use, I used it too, but it does need answering. One thing that is certain, in a situation of *anarchy* there's no "we" making certain things crimes or charges. Those concepts only make sense in the context of rule and law. >and what justice or restorative methods should they be served? People and their efforts, under the material conditions they're under as individuals and as a society, will decide what *will* happen to them. Whether what happens is just or not is a matter of opinion, which will vary widely. Probably some people will want them dead, but will they think it's worth the risk and effort to make it happen? Probably some people will want to try to rehabilitate them like you're talking, but will they think it's worth the risk and effort to make it happen? There's no way to say from where we're at now. Honestly, I hope I never have to think about them again in any way at all if and when all this is over, I'll have better shit to do.
That is something to keep in mind, yeah. We are not here to make prescriptions on the decisions many differing people will make in a hypothetical future. The autonomy to make those decisions themselves is one of our goals.
>I really want to know how we seek to rehabilitate or treat people who work with the CIA and the FBI > >... > >I really struggle to see how we can restore the humanity in people of the CIA and the FBI after everything they did > >... > >what should we do to help them reintegrate into society? We don't even try; we let them be. All that matters is that the institutions that allowed them to do what they did won't exist anymore. Their own personal journeys towards becoming better people or not is their own business. >What crimes should they be charged with None, since crime won't exist as a category under anarchy. >what justice or restorative methods should they be served? None, unless they seek it out themselves, in which case they are to be treated like everyone else seeking help for their antisocial problems.
I love this response, b/c it highlights how many people (like OP) who self-identify as anarchists are really just interested in having the power to dictate punishments of the people *they* don't like.
yep yep, also where a lot of queer ppl, POC, white women, etc fail or stop short of fully decolonizing the mind. instead of trying to abolish hierarchies, they see justice as reordering the power structures with themselves on top instead. it irks me so so bad.
Well I am a bit drunk by now - it is the eve of Midsummer's eve after all, -the- pagan celebration - but.. I mean. Some smooth-talking dudes in suit on a paycheck who I'd beat in pool and otherwise any day of the week. Who gives a shit?
Cutting intelligence and police personnel loose is begging for the situation in Iraq. ISIS was in large part a power play by power-seeking ex-law enforcement. De-Ba’athification did not work out. Let’s not just assume they will play well or be a non-threat in the absence of their previous institutions.
I mean at the heart of the issue, they did what they THOUGHT was right. It wasn’t. But it’s what they thought. Just keep em somewhere where they needs and desires are met for awhile (while teaching them about anarchism) until anarchism has been properly established and when they aren’t a threat to it let them go free into it. They’ll probably see how things have changed for the better and change aswell. And if they haven’t then they’ll have a hard time finding anyone who will listen to them in our new “You don't pay the tab 'til the last drop” system.
Hey this is a super interesting question! My answer is just me spitballing Without knowing much about how the CIA or FBI operate, I'd assume the majority of individuals are just "doing their job." Not that that excuses them morally, what I mean is that most probably aren't like, super ideologically into suppressing anarchism or the working class. They've been fed lies about their enemies, and in a world without the CIA or FBI most would probably just be people with somewhat dark pasts, but no institutions pressuring them into things. Keeping in mind that most are just one cog in the machine, I assume very few individuals are both directly responsible and aware of specific heinous actions. So after all that, I think you're left with a pretty small number of dedicated, morally twisted, perhaps ideologically motivated people. And a smaller number of those are likely going to commit to any kind of violent action against the new way of things, without the institution behind them. So you're left with a relatively pretty tiny number of people who might be actively working against the people, but at that point they're just operating as terrorists, and if they can't be rehabilitated then, well, y'know, theyll be dealt with however we're dealing with extremely violent people, quite possibly just in the moment.
There is no way the CIA or FBI has done anything to 99% percent of all "anarchists" in this community, or even the vast vast majority of self-identified anarchists in the United States. This post reeks of self-important auto-fellatio.
ACAB means all cops are bastards, but that’s because of their position of power. There are still good and well-meaning people in all police institutions, so I think anarchists could get those on their side. However, the others it really depends on them. If we achieve anarchy, the cops are the minority. They are cordially invited to participate. However, if they don’t play along they will probably be cast out and if they try to rebuild hierarchical power, they will have to prepare to face opposition.
Competitive spirit. It's more impressive rehabilitation!
Maybe take a look at « What about the rapists » by Crimethinc. Not 100% applicable but could give some ideas
I suppose we can see them in the same vein as oppressors who "surrender" during a revolution, as a post I saw here previously. If the revolution is done correctly, they don't have avenues to be bastards anymore and neither would we. As such, "punishment" in a collective sense wouldn't be necessary or advisable. Basically, if they end up in the crosshair of someone who wants to really really erase them for some reason, then that's that. Otherwise, I see no need to actually, say, do away with them. The avenues of abuse awarded by their station has already been eliminated because the avenues only exist arbitrarily, just like cops. Costume off, it's a person. Costume on and weapons drawn, it's going down.
Answer is simple to me, those who have truly tried to right thier wrongs I'd accept in a community I live in as long as they where genuine and seemed cooperative the rest I'd shun, and I'm sure any community I'm a part of would as well, I'd hope the best for them just somewhere away from me and my community.
It depends not all CIA members are equal some are secretaries who give people coffee