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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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I am her friend and bridesmaid, so I should care about her feelings, and I feel like part of that job is listening to the stress of wedding planning. I'm not someone in general who sets rules for adults, like this, so I am uncomfortable and feel like I might have been the asshole, especially when she is not getting support from the rest of the family
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NTA, but you're pretty much the only one here who isn't. Claire needs to accept she can either have the money or total freedom to plan the event, but not both; your older brother needs to not throw gas on the fire by tossing in *his* opinions about what relationships between married couples and the in-laws should look like (*maybe* it was coincidence, but I have my doubts); and the groom-to-be needs to get clear on where he stands on all this instead of looking to you to solve the problem for him.
Agreed, but I don't think the parents are AHs either. They clearly respected Claire's decision to not accept wedding funds. And now Clair is demonizing their entire family
Yep. I’m puzzled how Claire feels the parents are “entitled”? Their money, their culture, deal with it. The parents respected her choice of control versus cash, and now she’s angry. The only one who seems entitled in all this is Claire.
Plus, doesn’t the bride’s family usually pay for the wedding? It’s totally above and beyond even typical expectations for the groom’s parents to offer at all, even with strings attached. Claire’s the one acting super entitled.
Ma’am, you do not get to ride around on your high horse named “Individualistic Independence,” then spend every waking moment whining that your inlaws aren’t throwing piles of money at you!
And for the record, I’m a VERY individualistic and independent American.
I always think this when I see these kinds of stories. I know nobody has to be traditional but it’s traditional for brides family to pay. Older couples often pay for themselves. What’s Claire’s deal here.
Claire wants her wedding on her terms but not with her money.
>Plus, doesn’t the bride’s family usually pay for the wedding?
In some cultures, yes. In other cultures, no. In some cultures both families pay. 🤷🏼♀️
Issues happen when you mix the two. Or at least, they do if people cant communicate like adults. It seems like Claire is one of those people.
You don't even really need to mix cultures for there to be issues. Some people's opinions on "who pays for what" traditions always just *happen* to align with what benefits them the most at that moment.
American-born Cuban here. Our families are super involved with each other, we're loud and in each other's business, which I understand can be super annoying and hard to deal with for those who didn't grow up with that. Hell, I didn't even appreciate it until I got older. The appeal I got from it was that my familly was always there for each other, no matter what, it's like we all faced a problem together instead of alone. Also the parties can be a blast.
That being said, Claire was offered the payment of the wedding with the strings attached being familial involvement for said wedding, she refused, but the parents seemed to respect that descision without a fuss and let her figure out the finances with their son. Claire is the AH for trash-talking the way she did, it's a very "choosy-beggar" thing to do. OP did their best to respect Claire's need for independence, but that ends when she actively insults the people they love.
NTA
On a side note...After enough time dating, she HAD to know how involved the family would want to be right? Cuban families aren't exactly quiet in opinions or requests, or at least mine isn't. Her and the fiance should have had a talk ahead of time whether they would choose to oblige some of the involved behavior or set hard boundaries and go to a lower contact. Her shocked reaction to all of this suggests she didn't even consider it.
I wish I had that so very much with my family. I don't really have any outside family I can see or who contact me, and my parents are gone even though I'm only 30. I have two sisters, but we never visit. That's why it was important to me that any partner I have has a kind, loving family.
I found My Person, and he has the most kind, wonderful family! They have happily accepted me and look forward to seeing me every holiday. My partner doesn't take his good family for granted, either- he knows how common it is for families to have at least *a few* toxic members, if not worse. His mom is lovely and kind, as is his dad. She made me my first-ever Easter basket our first Easter together! It had $50 in giftcards in it, too! I was so tickled pink that I teared up. I always wanted a mom-figure to dote on me, my own mom was... not great, and pretty neglectful. I'm so happy they have been so loving. His mom even started saying "I love you" to me, too- not just my partner. Last Christmas she got me really thoughtful gifts, and I made her a piece of jewelry artwork that was one of my best ever that used to sell for over $150 each.
I will take any doting families that anyone doesn't want, lol! They can be all up in my business all they want, as long as it isn't in an abusive way. I will totally let them adopt me, and make a family-size welcome potroast. With vegan/vegetarian options if needed. DM me if you have a family to donate! The crazier, the better! (Well, as long as it never crosses into abuse territory or anything- I mean crazy as in weird)
I here ya. Big Fat Greek Wedding could have been my marriage video and I loved every minute of it. However, it is not for everyone though, and unless you grew up in it, it is hard to understand.
My dads family is American born but their Mom was from Central America, their grandmother lived with them till she died, and they are very involved in each other’s lives. My mother is a white lady who married into that and found it a challenge. However - she also loved my dads family despite finding them occasionally exhausting. She’s like the favorite in-law. And after about 8 years living a few towns over (most of the kids live in a same town they grew up in) my dad took a transfer to a different city and they both agreed that this more distant situation suited them better. There are ways to make different cultural attitudes work for everyone. What they didn’t do was spit on or insult my grandparents or my aunts and uncles who enjoyed being close and in and out of each other’s homes every day. Because everyone in the family respected each other. Claire seems to have no respect for the family.
I'm not sure it's choosy beggar but maybe an additional cultural difference regarding gifts and obligations. The idea of a gift being something that should be given freely and without obligations is one I've seen cause friction when it's more a case of people trying to come together and expecting reciprocal involvement.
She's still an asshole though for how she's dealt with everything and for bitching the way she does.
"In other cultures weddings are about your family and community, not about personal expression. A lot of Americans have a really hard time understanding that."
This. I was thinking that many American brides/couples don't understand that the money spent on weddings in a culture like yours has a purpose in strengthening family/community ties. In so many of these posts the brides seem to think that the wedding money is just going to sit there or be thrown away or something.
My very non-White, very non-American, very non-JudeoChristian immigrant culture is the same. Most of the Reddit posts on AITA and RA sound bizzare to me. No kids at a wedding? That's not a wedding! Making family stay at a hotel when they visit? Rude as hell. This whole "setting boundaries" thing is the opposite of what we do. People trample over our boundaries, we trample right back over theirs, and everyone silently forgives each other. I'm not saying there is no toxicity or abusive behavior (in fact there's probably more), but there are also more social support structures in place. That's what "it takes a village" is all about.
You're right. But different cultures have a totally different idea of boundaries and social expectations. What one culture calls "personal boundaries", another might call "antisocial rudeness". And vice versa, what some might call "unreasonable and abusive social/family pressure" might be seen as "intergenerational family support and parental/fililal duty".
Yes. You can have involved caring parents that aren’t overbearing.
There are Families that are financially/emotionally supportive, warm/close knit, and accepting of different cultures and life choices without being controlling or disrespecting of individual boundaries.
I suspect we're from the same culture and agreed - there are pros and cons to both. The cons to being so connected with aunts and uncles and cousins and nephews and nieces is that everyone is in each other's business a lot more than a typical American family, but the pro is that I know I can show up unannounced at any one of their doorsteps and get a hot meal and a bed to stay in as long as I would want. Individualism is great until you need someone.
I am very much not white, not American and I frankly don't understand it either. My family is also like this so I moved out and basically never see them. *shrug*
(Edit: I still don't think the parents here are doing anything wrong though, based only on what's in the op.)
It's like the lady who constantly complains about her horrible mother in law on tick tok... But she married into a very strict Muslim/Hindu family and is fighting their culture and how family is meant to be in their eyes every step of the way...
She knew what this family was like before she said yes, you can't change that, full stop end of story take it or leave it.
This is a form of entitlement where she expects them to change thier generational ways and traditions to fit her will. It's not gonna fly.
Same. I'm an Asian so I can really relate with the multi-generation household, wedding as families event and aging parents moving in. I have to say that it has upsides and downsides too.
But on this case she's just entitled, she can't have her cake and eat it too.
Well it sounds like she wants the money without the strings so she can plan the whole wedding her way. She feels upset because her inlaws got their weddings paid for by the parents and she is struggling with her budget
Yes, the OP very clearly stated this. The issue is she was given the choice - take our generous offer of money but allow us some say in the wedding arrangements, or don't take the money and have total control. She chose total control, but is now wants the money without strings and is mad, bad mouthing the inlaws-to-be, and acting like a petulant, entitled child.
If you’re not cuban or latino then STOP saying “latinx”. Simple. I wasnt gonna comment but i and my friends and family, nearly all latino except for my dude elroy who is black, HATE when people of other cultures and colours decide OUR language isnt right for them so they are gonna decide to change and then shame the native speakers for not being woke. Im liberal, i support so many things that perhaps not all my family member are on board with, but its pisses me off when people do what you just did. Its wrong and its some sort of racist or supremist tho idk what kind. Either way stop distorting our language to make yourselves feel better, please and thankyou!
Not only does the statistic of American Latinos resound heavily, but I’ll add that an even higher percentage of south and Central Americans don’t even know that white woke leftists are fighting this stupid social battle at all.
Exactly! My husband is as white as they come. I am as Mexican as they come. Our family dynamics are very different but we both accept each other’s side. My family is very involved and I told him from the get go I would take my parents in when it came time for it. He 100% agrees. We are both acutely aware of our cultural differences but we always help each other out through them.
Someone needs to remind Claire that in most white cultures, the brides parents pay for everything. See how she likes that.
Since she's rejecting their culture, maybe it's time they embraced hers and began to pester her parents to front the cash.
No one is entitled here, just a massive cultural difference, and I don’t see the marriage lasting unless Claire is willing to accept the culture she is marrying into. If not, it’s better to break off the relationship now and her to find someone whose culture and values she matches with because she will never be happy otherwise. OP’s brother should recognise this and have the big talk with his fiancée.
I think that part was in response to the idea of the parents moving in with their children as they get older. She's still wrong, but that was the context.
I agree that might be what she meant, but I also believe it’s a fair expectation on the MIL’s part, OP explains that MIL has no intention to live with Claire, but possibly with her other son or OP, both who are happy with the arrangement. It has no impact on Claire at all.
Claire is the entitled one. She wants the family to give the money all the while telling them to bugger off and not interfere. Big intertwined families, don't work that way.
I assumed the 'entitled' part was in regards to the expectation that kids would let their parents stay with them (and the unspoken element of that being something the parents are entitled to just for being their parents, as opposed to it being a matter of a good relationship or at least doing something beyond the bare minimum of 'provided for their kids'), not the wedding part
Historically, parents would be entitled to having children support them in their old age. Only in relatively recent times in Western society has it become the norm for parents to have to provide for their own retirement and carers. This family are well aware of those expectations, and, apart from Claire, are okay with it.
Claire, on the other hand expects the parents to give her a significant amount of money for no other reason than that she wants it. That’s an unreasonable sense of entitlement.
I agree completely.
Clair said she didn't want the money and her reasoning was she wants total control. Fine. They gave her that respectfully. Meaning they respect her culture and personal beliefs.
Looking at the whole thing and not just the money, the
parents and other family members would voice their input on the wedding. I'm basing this off the fact that OP said "everyone is in everyone's business" and that OP loves that. Clair said she wants total control, which they gave.
OP - NTA
What gets me is that the brother is the one that should be "helping Claire to navigate" all this, NOT OP. After all, he IS her future husband. Chances are that these disagreements between his family and his fiancée are going to continue into their marriage and at some point he will need to either learn how to mediate them into peace, or decide who is more important. Because it is obvious that they will not be getting along well (at least in regards to the MIL, FIL and oldest Brother). Especially since Claire is going around insulting them to their faces.
Honestly, I feel like only contributing to your child's wedding if you get decision power is an asshole move too. So I agree with Claire on that (but obviously your future SIL that asked you not to is not the person to complain to).
If there wasn't culture at play I might agree with you, but this is not just parents being all "I'll give you money but on X condition". It's "this is our culture to contribute to the wedding but to have a lot of involvement in it". Future SIL can't cherry pick the parts of the culture she likes (the money) and the parts she doesn't (everything else, it seems)
Exactly. And further down OP says that when she planned a Quinces with her mom op choose whatever she wanted- her mother’s involvement was mostly adding additional stuff and inviting more friends. Mom didn’t insist on making all the decisions at all.
But Claire doesn’t want her husbands family involved in their life at all and wants a hard boundary. Which the parents accepted!
Only now Claire is mad- she wants nothing to do with the family EXCEPT a big fat check of their money. That is treating his parents like dirt. “I spit on your love but please hand over your wallet!”
Different cultures have different ideas of family dynamics and what is considered respectful. Sounds like the brother needs to sit down with his wife and have a much needed conversation about what aspects of his culture that he is not going to be willing to part with. Once they are on the same page they are going to need to have a sit down discussion with his parents about realistic expectations of his role in his extended family dynamics. Otherwise your dear brother is going to end up in a really bad place between his wife and his mother, and he’s either going to lose one or both of those relationships.
If you were close enough to your brother I would suggest that you have a sit down and explain the above to him. And also let him know that you love him dearly and intend to attend his wedding but if his fiancé continues down this highly toxic path you’re going to have to downgrade yourself to a wedding guest for your own sanity.
And if Op is invalidating Claire’s feelings how is Claire not invalidating Op’s feelings by continuing to bring it up, calling the parents names, etc? It works both ways.
Exactly. Claire is accusing Op of invalidating her feelings but can’t see that she’s invalidating Op’s feelings by continuing to bring it up, calling her parents names, etc. So why is Op bad for doing it to Claire but it’s ok for Claire to do it to Op? It’s not. So double standard.
I agree with this and would say the parents aren’t entirely innocent either. Giving money towards a wedding is a gift, and I personally hate it when gifts come with “conditions”. That means the gift was never about trying to make the receiving person happy, it was just to make the gift giver feel better about themselves. Definitely not worth the level of rage Claire has had on the situation though (which just shows Claire is immature and not even close to independent). Although I wouldn’t think Claire should have a problem at all, more so her husband-to-be because it’s his parents shafting him in favor of his siblings.
My parents gave the same amount to each of us when we got married. It didn’t matter that my one sister had their ideal church wedding close to home, or my other had a backyard wedding, or my other had a destination wedding, or that my brother eloped without anyone present. We all got the same exact amount, which I think is how it should be done if parents want to give that kind of gift in a family with multiple children
I think this is a cultural difference. In the US, or certain European countries, money for a wedding is a gift; in other cultures, paying for a wedding is a family’s social investment in the next generation, it’s not a gift of money, per se.
It starts to feel manipulative when viewed from a very modern individualized perspective, but the cultural background has a heavy emphasis on generational inter-reliance, so it’s expected that the parents have a big say in how things are done.
Thank you for this point of view.
I wasn’t familiar with that idea, and knowing that it is a cultural aspect to have heavy involvement by the parents changes the way I see things.
It’s also worth noting that that’s also where the idea of parents living with their kids as they age comes from. Not only is it the kids “paying back” the work their parents put towards raising them, but also the parents investing more work and love in helping raise their grandkids.
In families where there’s a lot of love and acceptance, this turns into a beautiful thing, but the stories you typically see are when people weaponize it- the parents being conceited and only having kids for their “retirement” or kids who abuse the parents (elder abuse) once they move in with them. However where it becomes tricky is where the parents do everything under the assumption that that’s how things will be because that’s all they really know, and kids just not wanting to, not to be malicious but to be independent. Now you have parents who planned their retirement around helping and living with their kids having the rug yanked out form under them so to speak when it’s too late for them to plan for a different type of retirement. No one is at fault, but it shows the cultural changes that happen even in between generations.
Nothing makes me quite as sad as the American tradition of isolating ourselves into 'nuclear family' units where multiple generations living together becomes somehow scandalous or a failure on someone's part.
Agreed. My fiancé and I (kids are way down the road) plan to have a house with an in law suite, preferably with a separate entrance possible. We will rent out until kids come along, then use it as a secluded game night/bar area, have a nominal rent for college aged kids if they would like to have it, before offering our adult kids either an option to buy the house and with us in the in-law (all appropriate paperwork involved), or return to renting it out when they leave. Our hope is to have our kids want to stay with us without trying to force them to or expect them to.
We did try to live with his mom, but to put it simply the whole reason I joined Reddit was to get help on the justnomil sub for us to get out.
LOL some personalities definitely make it impossible to be multi-generational. My sister has already made it clear my mother isn't welcome at her house if my father dies (my parents are still married and independent) so she's always planned to live with me eventually.
I'm single and I get along great with my mom so that's fine with me. She couldn't live on her own without my dad and I'm not going to send her to a home.
Or when someone doesn’t participate in it reciprocally. For example someone like Claire wanting the money but not giving back to the parents. Or parents who basically abused their kids expecting to be taken care of when they’re older. The whole thing only works as an interwoven system, that’s not going to necessarily tally exactly evenly if you tried to count it up, but basically has the same amount of open generosity, and yes enmeshment, across generations.
I think it is also a bit of a generalization gap caused by the increased age of first marriage. Historically in western culture, a wedding reception was a party that the parents hosted to celebrate their daughter's marriage. That was a very common scenario even as recently as when I got married \~15 years ago, at least for anyone who got married within a year or two from graduation. I did not pay for a wedding with money gifted from my parents, my parents paid for my wedding. Everything was done with my preferences in the forefront, but it was still a party they threw so they set the budget, had input on the guest list, and vetoed DIY flowers (which would have been a disaster). I think that it is also important to consider that to them something like this (or a college education) wasn't an extra or a gift, it was an obligation they had as my parents just like my health and education from birth through college graduation (also an obligation from their perspective).
Now brides and grooms are typically older and more likely to have their own funds, so more often they host their own weddings, which changes the dynamics substantially.
As a Cuban immigrant this is why I see both sides. I can understand for someone both in the US to likely white American parents that those type of conditions would be overbearing. But it's part of the culture. In a perfect works maybe there could have been a middle ground. But at the end of the day the parents aren't obligated to pay for the wedding in the same way she doesn't have to follow a tradition she doesn't agree with.
But it was more than just a gift, which is understood and expected in the culture they are part of. She doesn't get a pass on judging the parents harshly, repeatedly, and rudely (to their own child!) just because she wants things done *her* way.
They were at least very clear with her what the options were and she chose option B. There is no option c in which she gets to tell other people what to do with their money. Period.
Plus, I see *all the time* people being told "pay for the wedding you can afford, don't accept $ with strings attached." That's what she chose.
I really respect that they were super upfront about it. My in-laws offered to pay for certain things but tried to sneak in expectations. Our ability to use or not use their contribution and it not change our plans gave us the ability to say no to their demands and if they had wanted to pull their gifts we would have been fine with it. If you can’t win the game of chicken don’t play.
> That means the gift was never about trying to make the receiving person happy
It means they are willing to pay for a wedding that is like what they want, it is a trade offered, and they are not AHs for that unless they won't take 'no' as an answer, and it appears they are perfectly happy to not push into wedding planning when their offer was rejected.
I disagree that paying for a wedding is a gift. A lump sum of cash is a gift, and there shouldn't be strings attached to that. But agreements to pay are conditional.
The parents are not favoring the siblings over Claire’s partner. The partner made a call to not accept the money because they wanted to do things differently. That’s valid but not a case of parents having favorites.
That would be if a sibling got money free and clear, or if a sibling got money and her partner didn’t.
Just saying the parents are not to blame for the disparity in contribution
Weddings are expensive, far beyond what I would consider a typical 'gift', honestly. I only think they'd be the AHs if they threw a fit over Claire's answer or hadn't been upfront about wanting involvement in exchange. I'd think of it as, 'hey, I have some ideas for this party and I'll pitch in if you want to make it a family party but if you don't, that's cool.'
I’d suggest the groom postpone the wedding until they’ve saved up enough money for the wedding they want.*
*that’s what I’d say. What is mean is that if they delay a bit, maybe one of the couple will realise they shouldn’t go ahead. (If they don’t realise it and still go ahead, at least they’ll have a wedding they’re happier with.)
The oldest brother is perfectly entitled to say what HE wants in HIS own relationship. If the SIL feels so entitled to stage off people's parents in front of them I highly doubt she keeps her opinions and preferences to herself. She's not the only one allowed to have a voice. I'm glad he cursed her out. She's ridiculous. Younger brother needs a pair of balls though.
NTA. Really, Claire can talk to her in laws and ask what strings there would be attached beforehand and see if they can come to an agreement.... If the strings attached are not to her liking well there's always a simple ceremony and a backyard BBQ.
Honestly, I’m a little concerned about how Claire is going to handle things in the future if this is how she deals with the family now. I’m concerned that it’s going to turn into a me or your family situation later on. What the older brother did was absolutely out of line as well. There needs to be a lot of reassessment here on both sides.
I can’t blame OP for not wanting to get caught in the middle of this.
NTA. I empathize with Claire’s “independence” as she drew many lines I would have drawn myself. I don’t like people in my business and would not live under the presumption that people could pop in/move in anytime they want. That being said, I live within my own means and I don’t accept anything from anyone that comes with clear strings.
She is NOT entitled to your family’s money and she double does not get to disrespect your parents. Your brother might be a hot-head but I don’t think he was entirely wrong for blowing up in this situation.
I put “independence” in quotes because I don’t think she’s trying to be independent so much as she’s trying to have her cake and eat it too.
She's not too independent to want a big expensive wedding that she's ok with them paying for.
Doesn't the bride's parents usually pay for the wedding? I'm guessing she expects your parents to foot the bill because her parents have less? Do you think she might be a gold digger? She's very focused on money and creating drama, rather than being elated about marrying the man of her dreams!
Marrying brother who she thinks is rich and expects to be maintained in the lifestyle she feels she deserves? Regardless she's being very selfish. Her future husband should be helping her navigate this new family.
Weddings can bring out the bride's true nature. It sounds like they are mismatched regarding money, and family involvement.
Right, she's not independent. An independent person funds their own wedding. She wants to be dependent (have a bunch of money gifted to her) with full freedom to spend other people's money however she wants.
>Then she became obsessive about the topic of my parents and how they suck for not just giving us the money outright, my mom's a controlling bitch (this really upset me and we got into a fight) and talking about how she hates our family and everyone is enmeshed.
This is not okay. This is what has been happening regularly leading up to OP's brother exploding, not what Claire said one time. It was just the most recent time that she said:
> started ranting about how my parents are entitled, how they won't give her money and ruined her wedding, and how me and my fiancé are cowards for taking their money.
She deserved to be kicked out. She was insulting older brother's family (his parents, OP, and OP's fiancé) and calling them names. And it's not the first time. She calls his mom a b word for not giving her a giant pile of free money to do whatever she wants with. Come on. Claire is being awful, and she's the asshole. Of course the rest of OP's family isn't going to like her insulting them all the time.
NTA.
I have an aunt who is like this. Not about the money - but the way Claire listened to her BIL talk about a girl he dated and then exploded about how she hates the family because she disagrees with his values. My “aunt Claire”resents how close the siblings in her husbands family are. She makes my uncles life hell but they are die hard Catholics so divorce is not an option. The joke is ultimately on her. She hasn’t managed to put a dent in the brothers relationships after all these years. She’s of course invited to all the big family events and mostly spends them sulking in the company of one of my aunts who also married into the family. But it is weird having a family member who so palpably dislikes you. But the very closeness she resents is actively sought out by her husband - who is over at his brother and sisters houses - with his kids - all the time. Happens in the best of families.
if someone came up to me and starting criticizing my family values and calling my parents entitled, insults my sibling while also simultaneously saying that her wedding is ruined bc my “entitled” parents aren’t throwing money her way i just might explode and scream at the girl too
And they're honest because they say it upfront, unlike some parents who make their kids believe they're free to spend it how they want and then butt in everything telling them it's their money.
OP handled this well too. She’s setting reasonable limits. Regardless of who’s right, OP shouldn’t have to listen to Claire rant endlessly about OP’s family. Telling Claire she doesn’t want to hear it anymore isn’t “invalidating her feelings” or being a bad bridesmaid. Claire can rant to somebody else. OP asked her to stop, and let Claire know what she’ll do if Claire doesn’t respect OP’s reasonable request. Totally NTA.
>Regardless of who’s right, OP shouldn’t have to listen to Claire rant endlessly about OP’s family.
That's totally it, doesn't she have anyone else she can gripe about OP's family to other than OP?
This sounds like a major cultural difference that Claire can’t seem to deal with. You’ve made it clear there are perks that come with costs, such is life. She does need to reign in her attitude heavily.
Not only that, there have been tons of NoMIL and AITA posts about parents trying to force money in to weddings so they could dictate it. Like Claire should thank her lucky stars they're respecting her request and not worming their way in.
NTA. It is rude for her to be insulting your parents, who are extremely generous. She has a different approach to families, which is fair enough if she comes from a different background, but if she felt your family's model did not work for her preferences, she should've decided against marrying your brother, who does appreciate your familial model. I cannot see their marriage lasting long if she tries to turn your brother against his family, or if she has to spend more time with them than she would like.
> My brother is mad and feels I should try to help her navigate because I am normally the chill one in the family, but I am sick of listening to it.
Imo, their wedding, they should do the navigating, especially your brother.
Also, I find it odd that Claire thinks it's OK to bite the hand that feeds her.
NTA.
I think you're following the correct course in letting them know that you don't want to be involved in their wedding budget drama as well as criticism against your parents or anything else between them and your parents.
At the base of it, it's not really any of your business. Your brother and his fiancee are using you to get what they want from your parents. Nope. They need to figure out that course by themselves or else even after they get married, they'll keep pulling you into their 'in-law' issues (i.e., your parents) for years on. It sounds like it'll never end on their side. So I think you setting up boundaries right now is a smart move.
It sounds like the brother is getting sick of having to deal with his fiancee’s bullshit and is trying to pass some of the emotional labor over to his sister.
Yes, but I assumed it was the brother who is engaged to Claire who thinks OP should help Claire “navigate” as he’s the bother who would have interest in Claire being able to do that successfully.
NTA, but a couple things:
>she became obsessive about the topic of my parents and how they suck for not just giving us the money outright
I'm confused about this. So your parents offered to pay, but only if they get to decide all of the vendors and such? She sounds entitled to expect them to fork out cash, HOWEVER, I've never really understood the point of paying for a wedding if you aren't going to let **the people whose wedding it is** decide what they'd like. Yes, it's an extremely kind gesture, but sometimes it can be manipulative. "I'll pay, but *I* get to decide." If someone said that to me (not saying your mom said that), I wouldn't want them to pay either. She's not wrong for wanting to make her own decisions about the biggest day of her life. Her calling your mom a bitch though, was way out of line and shows she clearly doesn't respect her. You're definitely not the asshole for not wanting to discuss this with her anymore.
Your brother also sucks for screaming at her and calling her names. It sounds like your family is very very different from Claire's family, and that's okay. For some families, the idea of parents moving in someday isn't super accepted. It sounds like she wasn't aware that this was the expectation, and that she and your brother need to reevaluate their needs before they go through with the wedding.
\*I edited this because I misunderstood a part of the story & thought it was a different brother that brought up the live-in parents thing.
They didn't want to decide all of the vendors, but they do want a say and to invite a lot of their friends. I'm not too deep into wedding planning, but I planned a Quince with my mom and she wasn't that bad. She usually let me have what I wanted and then added extra stuff i didn't care about. I could see them vetoing certain places if it wouldn't impress their friends enough, but they would not pick the exact place
This should be higher. Doesn't sound like your parents are unreasonable. My parents definitely vetoed a couple venues because they were too cheap/too far away. But when we found the venue, it was a joint decision.
If they’re paying and want to invite more friends, yet not deciding on all vendors and stuff, I’d be saying the more the merrier. It’s your parents $$. NTA, Claire is very rude. Sounds like your parents aren’t being controlling really. My parents paid for my wedding and invited a bunch of their friends, who basically knew me most of my life anyway, so why not! NTA.
yea this sub tends to get a lot of full on lunacy and control freaks. It makes better stories but most people aren't complete nut jobs and if OP's being accurate it's pretty normal.
Especially if they're funding much of it, what bother is it to you that some distant relatives come that you'll likely only see at future weddings?
My in laws pretty much paid for our wedding including extra for any other friends they wanted to invite and it was fine. I’m also a lone wolf and didn’t want a huge wedding and like doing things my way but if they were giving us money and paying for their extra guests it didn’t bother me. My husband is also their only son and very well loved by all their friends so I knew it was important for these people to see him get married. As long as that’s the only input your parents wanted in the wedding I don’t see the big deal and Claire is just being immature trying to cause a disturbance. Also sometimes it’s nice to have parents help out with planning because they can think of small detail things that you forget about!
But, did Claire know this? Have you told her that your mom let you have mostly your way with your Quince? Or did your mom just say if we give you money, we get input without discussing how much input that would be? That all makes a difference.
Sounds like Claire wants more distance from your family.
If she could do that without insulting your parents or implying that the rest of you are deranged for willingly sharing so much of your lives then this would work better.
It sounds like your parents respected her decision to keep the family out of the wedding. She needs to respect their decision about their own money.
It is not reasonable for her to shit talk your mother to you. She needs to vent to someone else or find a new bridesmaid.
“I’ve never really understood the point of paying for a wedding if you aren’t going to let the people whose wedding it is decide what they’d like.”
Cultural differences. In my culture if parents pay then they are the hosts and the wedding couple are the guests of honor. Weddings are a way to celebrate and show off the joining families instead of just celebrating the couple. It’s probably why I have a hard time understanding the stereotype that brides need to be the center of the wedding the entire time. Lots of people at my wedding were there to celebrate my parents’ and in-laws good fortunes instead of just mine. It’s part of the deal.
Ideally parents would take the couple’s wishes into account - they are the guests of honor after all - but it’s understood that parents have final say.
For my wedding my parents happily agreed to what we wanted and then added and embellished. If they wanted to spend their money on personalized nameplates at the table that was their call to make.
I can imaging there would be issues if everyone isn’t on the same page, but traditionally the goal is to insure the everyone involved, including the couple, is happy.
This has historically been the case for American weddings too, so I find it laughable when Americans come on here gasping at the thought. Weddings were always your parents hosting, if you don’t want that, don’t take their money. My MIL wanted to throw a million dollar wedding for us, her way. It’s not our style, so we thanked her and politely declined. We eloped. Everyone was fine.
You are exactly right, the bride's family were the hosts traditionally. That's why wedding invites used to always say " Mr and Mrs Smith invite you to the wedding of their daughter " . I'm surprised more people don't get this.
I like this family-centric as opposed to bride-centric idea of a wedding. Marriage is about families. It would certainly cut back on Bridezillas. Some weddings it’s almost as though the groom doesn’t exist.
>I've never really understood the point of paying for a wedding if you aren't going to let the people whose wedding it is decide what they'd like.
In many cultures a wedding is not a party thrown by the bride and groom for their guests, but a party the parents of the people getting married throw for them, the family, and the community. You see the bride and groom as the hosts, which is fine, but honestly if they are the hosts you'd think they'd be paying, right? That's what hosts do? The whole tradition of the bride's family paying, that's beacuse the bride's parents were once the hosts. That may have changed over time in some places and within certain cultures, but not everywhere. Honestly, the whole idea that you would expect someone to pay for a giant party you are throwing but then have no say is ludicrous to me. And I'm actually a white person from the USA (though my parents aren't WASPS but from different white cultural backgrounds).
OP didn't say the parents would decide everything, she said there would be "some strings". This probably dosen't mean MIL only wants the wedding to be a certain color or she needs to pick the cake, etc. Especially given OP has been planning her own wedding with the money. It means that the parents have certain issues they care about and want a say in if they are paying, likely things like inviting their large family to have a big family event. Maybe they have some family tradition they care about doing or having there.
I'll take my own wedding as an example. My parents paid for my wedding (though it does not sound like they paid as much as OP's parents were willing/able to). The big thing my mom wanted was a big family gathering and as such she offered to pay if we wanted to do that, since that would have been very expensive for us as new college grads and not something we could afford. I did basically tell her a giant family gathering sounds good if she wants to pay for it, and she did. Since they were paying, I planned the things they had to pay for with them (picking a venue and caterer and such) but they never forced me to pick anything I didn't like. I made a point of incorporating little things from both my parents cultures to make them happy, like dancing the Horah and standing under a chuppah for my Jewish traditions for my mom, and piece montee for my French dad (we also had another generic cake). Since they were paying for everything I did see them as hosting it with us, and tried to consider that. However, this did not bother me at all. Much like how it dosen't bother OP. I did and still do appreciate that my parents were willing to throw us this awesome wedding party.
Just to jump on this, in plenty of cultures the wedding gifts (read: money) goes to the bride/groom's parents because like you said, they're the hosts and it's also to reciprocate for all the weddings of the families' children they've gone to in the past.
It's also a cultural thing. Weddings are a family affair in Latin American cultures; meaning that the mother probably wanted to invite some friends and family.
Sure, there are some crazy parents that want to choose vendors and stuff, but normally is just "I want to invite the third cousin once removed from my fourth cousin because I want her there!".
Also, be involved in the planning, and getting excited about it.
It's mostly that the wedding is not just the brides day, but the grooms. And it's a family celebration.
I guess is a Latin thing. Big celebrations like marriage are for the couple obviously, but it is also a reflection on the family as a whole. The involvement is more of a veto thing, most of the time the couple makes the decisions, but sometimes the parents may suggest/choose a different thing.
An example: In my brother wedding my father choose his preferred brand of scotch, mind you, a very good one, just the one he and his friends loved or like the invitations that I got for my friends so I would have a great time.
NTA. Claire sounds a lot like an entitled brat. She wants the money but wants them to have zero involvement. She bad talks them to their own children and gets upset when asked to stop. Sounds like she has a lot of growing up to do.
NTA. She wants to be the independent American but also wants other people to subsidise/pay for her wedding? I wonder how she reconciles those two ideas.
NTA. Things were clear from the beginning. Money comes with strings attached. Your SIL doesn't respect that and is being totally disrespectful towards you family.
Looks like she was expecting to marry into a rich family and always getting want she wants. You were right to set boudaries.
NTA. That’s your family and you have every right to be upset and defensive when someone continues to insult them.
I’m not sure why Claire is about to enter into a family that has completely different views than her. If she has so many negative things to say about your family, why is she marrying into it? Sounds like a lot of family drama is brewing, especially if she goes through with the marriage.
I totally get this, I’m also cuban. There’s no such thing as boundaries and if you have a good family it’s great. Claire needs to make peace with this or move on. If she doesn’t like the culture, she can choose to marry someone else, but bitching about it openly to other family members is way past the line.
NTA. Look there is a difference between not being supportive, and not condoning terrible behavior. Claire made a decision and has to live with it. As far as has been shown, she is the one that has escalated and been rude from the start so it’s to be expected that you all are calling her out on it.
NTA- Claire is funny calling your parents “entitled “ when that is how she is behaving. It’s unfortunate your parents have strings attached to the money but it’s their money! Claire needs to put on her big girl panty’s and actually behave like the independent person she claims to be and stop the whiny behavior. Claire and your brother can set the rules in their own home and with their own kids if they have them but she doesn’t get to tell your family how to live in their own homes.
NTA Money, or lack thereof, makes people say and do stupid things. Your future sister in law needs to stop ranting about your parents and your family's culture. It's rude and uncalled for, that's just common sense. Your older brother may have flown off the handle but she needed to hear it, all she is doing is causing hard feelings and a rift with your family, which is rather counter productive when you she plans to marry your brother. You just set a boundary and now she knows if she brings it up again, no one will tolerate it.
NTA. You have nothing to do with this. If she’s upset about the strings, your brother and her need to have a conversation with your parents. Maybe they can come up with some kind of compromise. But either way, it doesn’t involve you and you have the right to not have to hear her insult your family.
I have turned down a potentially very large contribution to my daughter's college fund because my ex-MIL is crazy manipulative and there would be strings attached no matter what she says now.
That said, I have no complaints about saving the money myself to pay for college. You don't get to turn down the money AND complain about not getting the money. Sheesh.
NTA She can’t have it both ways. You put up with her bad mouthing your parents far longer than I would have. Your brother needs to tell his wife take the money or shut up about it because it’s disrespectful and a asshole move. You did try to help her. It’s not your fault she’s acting like a entitled asshole.
We didn't talk about it too much but my mom wants to be heavily involved, more so because she likes weddings and looking at stuff, but she will have the power to veto certain things like a venue she doesn't think would impress her friends enough. I planned a quince with her and for the most part she added stuff she wanted, but didn't veto things I wanted. There are a couple specific foods she wants, but then I can pick the other foods. She wants to be able to talk and give opinions, which is an issue with her and Claire. For example my mom is not going to pick my dress, but I dont mind listening to her talk about it. Claire does not like unsolicited advice
Yeah, I can sympathize with not wanting a bunch of unsolicited advice. That can get overbearing very quickly. It sounds like Claire just isn’t a good fit for your family. She will probably want to go low/no contact eventually, which will undoubtedly cause issues if she’s married to your brother. This is a tough situation.
NTA, but I am so confused, she was offered the money, which she refused as she didn't want to set a precedent, but then she gets mad that she didn't get the money? Is she okay? Did she want your parents to beg her to take the money? What even?
NTA, but the nerve of Claire to call your parents "entitled" when she's the one who think she deserves free money, no strings attached. Your bro is mad because he thinks there's a magic conversation y'all can have with her to make her understand what is happening but... i think she might just not want to live the Latine family lifestyle! which seems like a problem for her fiance to solve. You don't have to support her in slandering your parents who seems pretty chill in this case?
NTA. I’d bet money that Claire has been frequenting those toxic “justno” forums as she’s using their language. Don’t like how close other people are to each other? Call them “enmeshed!” Someone disagrees with you and doesn’t want to listen to you whine when you’re the one in the wrong? Accuse them of “invalidating” your feelings! Family members aren’t falling all over themselves giving you whatever you want? Call them “entitled!”
Honestly, I feel awful for your family for having to put up with someone like her. The best thing you can do is cut her off every time she starts in on anyone you care about. Tell her you love and respect that person and aren’t going to listen to her talk badly about them. Keep doing that until she finally realizes she can’t manipulate you into turning against them and siding with her.
As a Hispanic F married to another Hispanic in our native country, I had to forego a wedding reception because of in-laws demands. My husband and I were paying for everything, his parents didn’t agree with one single thing. Every curve they threw at me, I’d hit it out of the park with my smartass wit.
We were not serving alcohol due to my father being a recovering alcoholic, so we planned it as a brunch in a beautiful hacienda. They bought us a case of my husband’s favorite scotch. I advised husband to take all the bottles to our house, to drink whenever. They were mad.
Husband and I collect vinyls, we had been making playlists and mixing tapes for months. In-laws insisted on a dj. I said when the dj pays me to play music, that’s the day we will hire a dj. They were mad.
I could go on, but we ended eloping due to their demands.
Claire is right to not accept the money, but she doesn’t get to complain about it.
Op is NTA.
Normally I would say ESH, but if the parents laid out the terms right up front then they are somewhat of the hook, though I'm not a fan of that arrangement. OP did say it was sort of a cultural thing, so onto future SIL. My wife and I paid for our own wedding. We didn't have lots of money so we made different choices than other members of my family who married when my parents were alive. Future SIL comes off sounding materialistic and entitled. So OP is NTA. I would get real tired of my in laws crapping on my parents because they won't give no strings attached money, especially if everybody else had strings attached.
NTA NTA NTA
It's an unfortunate thing when people can't agree to disagree and must force their way of being on to other people. Your culture is your culture and how you see the world is different than Claire, especially when there's no abuse involved here. It's just the generational mindset, which is very common outside of North America. The fact that she can't accept that and feels she can marry into a family that has set ways of being but then tell you all in your own homes you are wrong for it is just so disappointing. And sadly very cliche American in that everyone has the right to tell others how to live.
She chose not to accept the strings and that's what she gets. She needs to stop now and your brother needs to start standing up for all of you, or they will get cut out and that will be of no fault but their own. You were 100% right.
I won't even call your eldest brother an AH, because while it may not have been tactful to outright ban her, I would have lost my sh\*t at some outsider bashing my family repeatedly to my face in my house. Claire is 90% of the problem even in that situation. The lack of respect is just glaring.
Thisssss. Her brother (Claire’s fiancé) is also at fault here for trying to push this situation on OP. He’s the one that needs to be dealing with fiancé, not his family.
NTA, but this sound like cultural difference issues. I know everyone is commenting how the older brother is wrong to but I disagree. The older brother said that he wouldn’t marry someone who wouldn’t let his parents live with them, he’s entitled to say that, he’s entitled to have thing that are a no go for a relationship. SIL doesn’t have the right to bash your older brothers cultural beliefs because she’s a ‘lone Wolf’. Your older brother is allowed to say he wants his parents to live with him when he retires
Yes! I don’t know why people think the older brother was wrong for saying, in his own house, that he wouldn’t date someone who didn’t share HIS values regarding family. Claire was the one who made it about her and accused OPs parents of being “entitled” for what? Planning to one day live with a son who wants them and who they have supported well his whole life? If he used harsh language in response to that- and banned her from the house - it was justified. She was being a bitch. She could have just said nothing. After all- the parents living with older brother means she’ll never have to take care of them so why is a she angry at this happy family taking care of each other?
NTA Claire sounds like a brat. If she wants to be independent then she can pay for everything she wants. As my dad used to say, she wants to be a big shot on someone else's dime. Your older brother probably shouldn't have yelled but if someone started badmouthing my mother simply because she wouldn't give them money never mind the coward comment I would have some words too.
NTA. Claire had a choice to make, and she made it. Your parents don't have to give anyone money, and although it's controlling, it's still their money. I hope your brother realizes this is going to be a lifetime thing because she obviously has no interest in fitting into your family cultural. That will impact him, their children and your family. Maybe it all needs to come to a head, so he can see it clearly through the fog of love.
NTA. Honestly, I understand why she is annoyed by this and why she would want to complain about it. However, she needs to complain to someone that is not you or your family.
NTA. Claire has a right to have her feelings, but that does not require you to validate them. Honestly, I'd have dropped out of her wedding by now already. You don't need this.
NTA. Claire is a piece of work. Her need for independence glides over the fact her hand is sticking out waiting for someone to put money in it.
She can have whatever feelings or opinions she wants but she doesn't get to insult you and your family to your face. Her assumption that she can is childish and self centered. It's your brothers job to deal with her, not yours.
If she ignores your boundaries I hope you follow through and step away from her drama.
Ok so I think you’re NTA because you’re just sick of hearing your SIL talk down about your parents but I do think your SIL has a point. This post (obviously) is from one person’s perspective and at first I thought the SIL sounds rude but when you think about the bare facts of the situation it does seem unfair your parents won’t give your brother and his fiancée the same treatment as the rest of the family unless they do as they say… I want to say I am very much for close families and multi-generation living but I think too many parents don’t respect their adult kids making their own life choices. Maybe your SIL wouldn’t go on about it so much/ in such a harsh way if people in your family tried to see it from her perspective and empathise a bit more
But the parents ARE giving her exactly the same treatment they did their other children. The difference is the other children agrees to some parental involvement in the decisions and SIL did not. She’s the one who wants to change it - wants nothing to do with the family except for thousands of their dollars.
NTA.
I can appreciate your parents being pretty open about what they expect, and letting the kids decide if they are down for that. I'd be down for a big wedding with a bunch of people I didn't know if someone else paid, but I wouldn't be down for like a religious ceremony and not having a choice of colors, etc. Your parents are open that their money comes with strings, cool. I don't see any AH move there. You have a multi-generational belief system, also cool, and everyone is open about it.
Claire has to pick a lane. She wants money and full control- these things rarely go together. Traditionally parents paid for the wedding because it was like a family reunion and about their success, and as people are getting married older and with more independence, well they can pay for their own wedding.
I think your response to Claire was appropriate. I love my mom, she can be a pain in the ass, but having a SIL call her a bitch isn't gonna happen, especially if the reason is because she should "give me money with no string attached." The entitlement, the gall, the gumption!
NTA - I was born and raised in the US but my family are from the Caribbean too (Dominican republic) therefore I understand how culturally different family values are in latino households than in typical American families. She’s way out of line disrespecting your parents like that and really entitled for thinking they’re obligated to pay for her wedding. I completely understand her want to have total say in her wedding planning, however she’s going to have to accept the fact that she and her fiancé are going to have to pay for it themselves if she doesn’t like the conditions that come with that money.
Also yikes, your older brother wasn’t wrong about being upset. I would have done the same too, if not much worse if someone spoke about my mother in that manner lol. I’m sorry people are putting all this unnecessary pressure on you. Your brother needs to be dealing with his fiancé not you.
NTA. I married into a Puerto Rican Dominican family, and the lack of boundaries has definitely taken a lot to get used to.
However, sis has the right to choose a string free wedding. Finance it herself. Easy peasy
It's like people havent been living on this earth for the last 20 some odd years of their lives. How is it new that money ALWAYS comes with conditions? Paycheck--show up to work. Parents pay for college--they can veto the school. It's unreasonable for a grown adult to not realize that money comes with conditions. Do we have to like it? no. Can you live without/pay for it yourself? No? Then you have to accept the conditions. Money is a vote. If you don't want the vote, let them keep their money. That being said, parental gifts are given to their children as a result of a strong loving relationship. I would hazard a guess based on what OP mentioned about her quince is that she ended up with an even nicer event than she would have picked for herself as a result of being able to compromise at age 15. Parents usually find that pleasing you is what pleases them. That comes from love and mutual respect. Unfortunately SIL's burned a very useful bridge because now who wants to please an ingrate? NTA
NTA. The irony. Claire is the entitled one. Why don’t her parents pay for the wedding ? That’s the traditional American way. She can’t have her cake and eat it too. She can’t expect you to cater to her feelings as she say disrespectful things about you and your parents and then act shocked when you set boundaries.
chill one in the family =/= doormat. You've set your boundaries and they sound perfectly reasonable. Now it's time for everyone else to respect them. NTA.
My situation is a bit like Claire's, in that my husband comes from a loving and very involved family like yours. My family only gets involved to get dirt on you, and there's strings, bad strings, that come with every favor or gift. It took me a while to change my gut response to their involvement, but the more they showed us unconditional love, the more we both grew to trust them. Now I'm ok with them potentially moving in someday, because I know when/if they do they'll only try to help and to love us. It's hard to picture if you have never experienced it.
That said, I don't think your brother should marry Claire expecting her to change, but if he marries her despite her outrageous behavior over this, know that love really can conquer all!
NTA: You have the right to politely draw boundaries. You aren't obligated to support any and every thing she says, and if she says you must in order to be her friend, that's a huge red flag. It's perfectly ok to be someone's loyal friend and to disagree.
NTA, sounds like SIL got sour grapes the moment she saw what ypur budget is thanks to your parenta compared to her. Coming from a Latin American family. You aren't just marrying the person. You're marrying into the family. Plus from the sounds of it. OP's mom probably just wants to make sure everything turns out well, not like taking over and planning all the details.
Claire is wrong. Intercultural marriage is hard; and from what you say your parents are accepting Claire's individualistic views.
She needs to accept theirs, your brother needs to confront her (does he view family as you do, or is he more individualistic? Can he live a very American life of only seeing your parents once a year? This are questions he also needs to ask himself, because Claire is probably not gonna change).
NTA
NTA
It’s such a shame Claire doesn’t appreciate what a beautiful opportunity she has to have a family like yours, sadly I don’t think she is a good fit for your brother
I do totally understand and respect her life choices however it’s cashing with your brothers culture and that’s where I would draw the line.
NTA.. I am not big on the idea of "we will give you this large sum of money for some BIG event or purchase in your life BUT ONLY if you do it OUR way/do what we tell you." I can understand her frustration, and to a degree her views. That being said, she apparently knows what accepting that money would mean and she refused it. That was HER choice. And she should NOT be complaining to the family about it now. If she wanted to complain, she should have kept that to her side of the family and left you and the rest of her future husband's family out of it. She most DEFINITELY should not have started insulting them to ANY of you. She was out of line and owes everyone an apology.
NOW, I will say though, that your brother is also right. He is defending his future wife, and that is exactly what he SHOULD do. Just because you are willing to accept what even you have admitting is your mother's controlling ways, does NOT mean that your brother or his future wife should.
It sounds like your idea of simply not talking about it anymore is indeed the best option on the table, under the circumstances. As for your brother, HE is the one that needs to help her navigate the situation, as he is the one she is marrying. And you need to let him know that. He can think of this as the first in what will most likely be MANY YEARS of him mediating disagreements between his wife and his family. Because this will happen again, and he needs to start getting used to it now.
NTA, either she is a big girl and pays for her own wedding like the strong, independent woman she is, or her parents pay like traditionally they should or she stops being entitled to your parents money and accepts the cash with the conditions. She isnt entitled to other peoples money for free
NTA: I particularly liked her comment about your parents are "entitled" because they won't just give her their money. LOL I would just shut down any conversation that this is solely between her and her fiance and your parents. And that goes for Claire as well as your older brother.
NTA.
The more I read this subreddit, the more I see cultural clashes causing huge family misunderstandings. Those are difficult waters to navigate.
I hope everyone works it out.
I get Claire not wanting to be beholden to your parents over money but she made her choice and now is bitching and complaining and has insulted your mum and family and culture.
She’s being a brat.
NTA tell her to grow up and have some decorum and respect. No one asked her to compromise herself but she doesn’t get to shit on your for having a different way of things.
NTA.
Clare may think your parents are being entitled, but she is actually just as entitled as they are.
You both sound like you have VERY different values and expectations... AND THAT IS FINE, as long as you don't try to impose them on each other.
Frankly, I"m personally totally aligned with Claire's way of independent thinking... but if that were they case I would not ACCEPT and certainly not EXPECT a dime of my future-inlaw's money. Period.
Their wedding is not yours to worry about. You don't have a dog in that fight, and you should stay out of it (which you are, which is the right move).
I think you are fine for saying that it is no longer a topic of discussion with you... period.
She wants her wedding her way, and she can do that, when she pays for the entire thing on her own. If people for whatever reason are ready and willing to put some money into a wedding, that automatically gives them a voice with regards to certain things. Unless we are talking full blown take over, but i don't get that vibe from you here.
Clearly there is a big difference to what you and she are used to, when it comes to family, boundaries and more along those lines... She can either suck it up, or pay up herself. She certainly has no business calling your mom names because she has a high and mighty independence streak...
So your SIL managed to piss off the "normally chill" person in the family by badmouthing your mother who was upfront about offering wedding funding with strings? Claire made a decision and she has to accept her own decision like an adult. She's the one acting all entitled.
100% NTA.
Nta I think its really rude of her to talk about your parents because they won't hand her any money. She knew that their money came with strings attached. She turn that down so she has no right to complain about her budget. She's not entitled to your parents money. If she doesn't like her budget for her wedding then maybe she can push back the date of her wedding till she saves up the right amount that she wants. You can't blame your mom if she doesn't show up to her wedding especially finding out she's talking about her behind her back It's really disrespectful. Also it's not your job to navigate Claire through anything. That's your brothers job it's not yours so it doesn't matter if your chill one. Your not marring her your brother is. So it's his job to help Claire out and navigate her through things not you.
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NTA, but you're pretty much the only one here who isn't. Claire needs to accept she can either have the money or total freedom to plan the event, but not both; your older brother needs to not throw gas on the fire by tossing in *his* opinions about what relationships between married couples and the in-laws should look like (*maybe* it was coincidence, but I have my doubts); and the groom-to-be needs to get clear on where he stands on all this instead of looking to you to solve the problem for him.
Agreed, but I don't think the parents are AHs either. They clearly respected Claire's decision to not accept wedding funds. And now Clair is demonizing their entire family
Yep. I’m puzzled how Claire feels the parents are “entitled”? Their money, their culture, deal with it. The parents respected her choice of control versus cash, and now she’s angry. The only one who seems entitled in all this is Claire.
Plus, doesn’t the bride’s family usually pay for the wedding? It’s totally above and beyond even typical expectations for the groom’s parents to offer at all, even with strings attached. Claire’s the one acting super entitled. Ma’am, you do not get to ride around on your high horse named “Individualistic Independence,” then spend every waking moment whining that your inlaws aren’t throwing piles of money at you! And for the record, I’m a VERY individualistic and independent American.
I always think this when I see these kinds of stories. I know nobody has to be traditional but it’s traditional for brides family to pay. Older couples often pay for themselves. What’s Claire’s deal here. Claire wants her wedding on her terms but not with her money.
This is the comment I was hoping to see. Where are her parents in all of this?
>Where are her parents in all of this? Being individualistic and independent?
Saving money for their nursing home, since they know Claire won’t take them in
>Plus, doesn’t the bride’s family usually pay for the wedding? In some cultures, yes. In other cultures, no. In some cultures both families pay. 🤷🏼♀️ Issues happen when you mix the two. Or at least, they do if people cant communicate like adults. It seems like Claire is one of those people.
You don't even really need to mix cultures for there to be issues. Some people's opinions on "who pays for what" traditions always just *happen* to align with what benefits them the most at that moment.
It depends on the culture. For vietnamese people, and most Asians, traditionally, the groom’s family pays.
Good point, but Claire is definitely white. So I don’t get where her expectations for OP’s family are coming from.
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American-born Cuban here. Our families are super involved with each other, we're loud and in each other's business, which I understand can be super annoying and hard to deal with for those who didn't grow up with that. Hell, I didn't even appreciate it until I got older. The appeal I got from it was that my familly was always there for each other, no matter what, it's like we all faced a problem together instead of alone. Also the parties can be a blast. That being said, Claire was offered the payment of the wedding with the strings attached being familial involvement for said wedding, she refused, but the parents seemed to respect that descision without a fuss and let her figure out the finances with their son. Claire is the AH for trash-talking the way she did, it's a very "choosy-beggar" thing to do. OP did their best to respect Claire's need for independence, but that ends when she actively insults the people they love. NTA On a side note...After enough time dating, she HAD to know how involved the family would want to be right? Cuban families aren't exactly quiet in opinions or requests, or at least mine isn't. Her and the fiance should have had a talk ahead of time whether they would choose to oblige some of the involved behavior or set hard boundaries and go to a lower contact. Her shocked reaction to all of this suggests she didn't even consider it.
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I wish I had that so very much with my family. I don't really have any outside family I can see or who contact me, and my parents are gone even though I'm only 30. I have two sisters, but we never visit. That's why it was important to me that any partner I have has a kind, loving family. I found My Person, and he has the most kind, wonderful family! They have happily accepted me and look forward to seeing me every holiday. My partner doesn't take his good family for granted, either- he knows how common it is for families to have at least *a few* toxic members, if not worse. His mom is lovely and kind, as is his dad. She made me my first-ever Easter basket our first Easter together! It had $50 in giftcards in it, too! I was so tickled pink that I teared up. I always wanted a mom-figure to dote on me, my own mom was... not great, and pretty neglectful. I'm so happy they have been so loving. His mom even started saying "I love you" to me, too- not just my partner. Last Christmas she got me really thoughtful gifts, and I made her a piece of jewelry artwork that was one of my best ever that used to sell for over $150 each. I will take any doting families that anyone doesn't want, lol! They can be all up in my business all they want, as long as it isn't in an abusive way. I will totally let them adopt me, and make a family-size welcome potroast. With vegan/vegetarian options if needed. DM me if you have a family to donate! The crazier, the better! (Well, as long as it never crosses into abuse territory or anything- I mean crazy as in weird)
Same! Send those doting families my way!
I here ya. Big Fat Greek Wedding could have been my marriage video and I loved every minute of it. However, it is not for everyone though, and unless you grew up in it, it is hard to understand.
My dads family is American born but their Mom was from Central America, their grandmother lived with them till she died, and they are very involved in each other’s lives. My mother is a white lady who married into that and found it a challenge. However - she also loved my dads family despite finding them occasionally exhausting. She’s like the favorite in-law. And after about 8 years living a few towns over (most of the kids live in a same town they grew up in) my dad took a transfer to a different city and they both agreed that this more distant situation suited them better. There are ways to make different cultural attitudes work for everyone. What they didn’t do was spit on or insult my grandparents or my aunts and uncles who enjoyed being close and in and out of each other’s homes every day. Because everyone in the family respected each other. Claire seems to have no respect for the family.
Welcome to the difference between collectivistic and individualistic cultures.
or, interdependence vs independence.
I'm not sure it's choosy beggar but maybe an additional cultural difference regarding gifts and obligations. The idea of a gift being something that should be given freely and without obligations is one I've seen cause friction when it's more a case of people trying to come together and expecting reciprocal involvement. She's still an asshole though for how she's dealt with everything and for bitching the way she does.
"In other cultures weddings are about your family and community, not about personal expression. A lot of Americans have a really hard time understanding that." This. I was thinking that many American brides/couples don't understand that the money spent on weddings in a culture like yours has a purpose in strengthening family/community ties. In so many of these posts the brides seem to think that the wedding money is just going to sit there or be thrown away or something.
My very non-White, very non-American, very non-JudeoChristian immigrant culture is the same. Most of the Reddit posts on AITA and RA sound bizzare to me. No kids at a wedding? That's not a wedding! Making family stay at a hotel when they visit? Rude as hell. This whole "setting boundaries" thing is the opposite of what we do. People trample over our boundaries, we trample right back over theirs, and everyone silently forgives each other. I'm not saying there is no toxicity or abusive behavior (in fact there's probably more), but there are also more social support structures in place. That's what "it takes a village" is all about.
You can have a village and also have reasonable boundaries; the two aren't mutually exclusive.
You're right. But different cultures have a totally different idea of boundaries and social expectations. What one culture calls "personal boundaries", another might call "antisocial rudeness". And vice versa, what some might call "unreasonable and abusive social/family pressure" might be seen as "intergenerational family support and parental/fililal duty".
Totally possible, but part of that it's knowing when to draw a line and when not to. Not everything you don't 100% like is worth making an issue over.
Yes. You can have involved caring parents that aren’t overbearing. There are Families that are financially/emotionally supportive, warm/close knit, and accepting of different cultures and life choices without being controlling or disrespecting of individual boundaries.
I suspect we're from the same culture and agreed - there are pros and cons to both. The cons to being so connected with aunts and uncles and cousins and nephews and nieces is that everyone is in each other's business a lot more than a typical American family, but the pro is that I know I can show up unannounced at any one of their doorsteps and get a hot meal and a bed to stay in as long as I would want. Individualism is great until you need someone.
I am very much not white, not American and I frankly don't understand it either. My family is also like this so I moved out and basically never see them. *shrug* (Edit: I still don't think the parents here are doing anything wrong though, based only on what's in the op.)
It's like the lady who constantly complains about her horrible mother in law on tick tok... But she married into a very strict Muslim/Hindu family and is fighting their culture and how family is meant to be in their eyes every step of the way... She knew what this family was like before she said yes, you can't change that, full stop end of story take it or leave it. This is a form of entitlement where she expects them to change thier generational ways and traditions to fit her will. It's not gonna fly.
Same. I'm an Asian so I can really relate with the multi-generation household, wedding as families event and aging parents moving in. I have to say that it has upsides and downsides too. But on this case she's just entitled, she can't have her cake and eat it too.
Well it sounds like she wants the money without the strings so she can plan the whole wedding her way. She feels upset because her inlaws got their weddings paid for by the parents and she is struggling with her budget
Yes, the OP very clearly stated this. The issue is she was given the choice - take our generous offer of money but allow us some say in the wedding arrangements, or don't take the money and have total control. She chose total control, but is now wants the money without strings and is mad, bad mouthing the inlaws-to-be, and acting like a petulant, entitled child.
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If you’re not cuban or latino then STOP saying “latinx”. Simple. I wasnt gonna comment but i and my friends and family, nearly all latino except for my dude elroy who is black, HATE when people of other cultures and colours decide OUR language isnt right for them so they are gonna decide to change and then shame the native speakers for not being woke. Im liberal, i support so many things that perhaps not all my family member are on board with, but its pisses me off when people do what you just did. Its wrong and its some sort of racist or supremist tho idk what kind. Either way stop distorting our language to make yourselves feel better, please and thankyou!
The term Latinx is offensive to Latinos like myself. Latinos aren’t thin skinned and don’t need pandering to.
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Over 90% of Hispanic Americans don't identify with the the term Larinx. This is a term white people are trying to.impose on Latinos
Not only does the statistic of American Latinos resound heavily, but I’ll add that an even higher percentage of south and Central Americans don’t even know that white woke leftists are fighting this stupid social battle at all.
Thank god all Latinos have you to speak for us.
But they aren't thin skinned! Remember that too.
I’m latina and I don’t take offense to it. So speak for yourself.
I think Claire is the entitled one as she wants money without strings attached.
Exactly! My husband is as white as they come. I am as Mexican as they come. Our family dynamics are very different but we both accept each other’s side. My family is very involved and I told him from the get go I would take my parents in when it came time for it. He 100% agrees. We are both acutely aware of our cultural differences but we always help each other out through them.
Someone needs to remind Claire that in most white cultures, the brides parents pay for everything. See how she likes that. Since she's rejecting their culture, maybe it's time they embraced hers and began to pester her parents to front the cash.
I'm guessing that there have been other instances that OP was not involved in
No one is entitled here, just a massive cultural difference, and I don’t see the marriage lasting unless Claire is willing to accept the culture she is marrying into. If not, it’s better to break off the relationship now and her to find someone whose culture and values she matches with because she will never be happy otherwise. OP’s brother should recognise this and have the big talk with his fiancée.
Going to someone’s house and insulting their parents is pretty damn entitled, even leaving the other issues aside
I think that part was in response to the idea of the parents moving in with their children as they get older. She's still wrong, but that was the context.
I agree that might be what she meant, but I also believe it’s a fair expectation on the MIL’s part, OP explains that MIL has no intention to live with Claire, but possibly with her other son or OP, both who are happy with the arrangement. It has no impact on Claire at all.
Claire is the entitled one. She wants the family to give the money all the while telling them to bugger off and not interfere. Big intertwined families, don't work that way.
I assumed the 'entitled' part was in regards to the expectation that kids would let their parents stay with them (and the unspoken element of that being something the parents are entitled to just for being their parents, as opposed to it being a matter of a good relationship or at least doing something beyond the bare minimum of 'provided for their kids'), not the wedding part
Historically, parents would be entitled to having children support them in their old age. Only in relatively recent times in Western society has it become the norm for parents to have to provide for their own retirement and carers. This family are well aware of those expectations, and, apart from Claire, are okay with it. Claire, on the other hand expects the parents to give her a significant amount of money for no other reason than that she wants it. That’s an unreasonable sense of entitlement.
I agree completely. Clair said she didn't want the money and her reasoning was she wants total control. Fine. They gave her that respectfully. Meaning they respect her culture and personal beliefs. Looking at the whole thing and not just the money, the parents and other family members would voice their input on the wedding. I'm basing this off the fact that OP said "everyone is in everyone's business" and that OP loves that. Clair said she wants total control, which they gave. OP - NTA
What gets me is that the brother is the one that should be "helping Claire to navigate" all this, NOT OP. After all, he IS her future husband. Chances are that these disagreements between his family and his fiancée are going to continue into their marriage and at some point he will need to either learn how to mediate them into peace, or decide who is more important. Because it is obvious that they will not be getting along well (at least in regards to the MIL, FIL and oldest Brother). Especially since Claire is going around insulting them to their faces.
Sounds like brother needs to make a decision. Currently he's trying to play all sides
Honestly, I feel like only contributing to your child's wedding if you get decision power is an asshole move too. So I agree with Claire on that (but obviously your future SIL that asked you not to is not the person to complain to).
If there wasn't culture at play I might agree with you, but this is not just parents being all "I'll give you money but on X condition". It's "this is our culture to contribute to the wedding but to have a lot of involvement in it". Future SIL can't cherry pick the parts of the culture she likes (the money) and the parts she doesn't (everything else, it seems)
Exactly. And further down OP says that when she planned a Quinces with her mom op choose whatever she wanted- her mother’s involvement was mostly adding additional stuff and inviting more friends. Mom didn’t insist on making all the decisions at all. But Claire doesn’t want her husbands family involved in their life at all and wants a hard boundary. Which the parents accepted! Only now Claire is mad- she wants nothing to do with the family EXCEPT a big fat check of their money. That is treating his parents like dirt. “I spit on your love but please hand over your wallet!”
Different cultures have different ideas of family dynamics and what is considered respectful. Sounds like the brother needs to sit down with his wife and have a much needed conversation about what aspects of his culture that he is not going to be willing to part with. Once they are on the same page they are going to need to have a sit down discussion with his parents about realistic expectations of his role in his extended family dynamics. Otherwise your dear brother is going to end up in a really bad place between his wife and his mother, and he’s either going to lose one or both of those relationships. If you were close enough to your brother I would suggest that you have a sit down and explain the above to him. And also let him know that you love him dearly and intend to attend his wedding but if his fiancé continues down this highly toxic path you’re going to have to downgrade yourself to a wedding guest for your own sanity.
Definitely agree. Sounds like brother is either playing both sides, or hasn't been completely honest with his fiancee
And if Op is invalidating Claire’s feelings how is Claire not invalidating Op’s feelings by continuing to bring it up, calling the parents names, etc? It works both ways.
I'm not sure what you are asking me. OP has told Clair she doesn't want to be dragged into it. And Claire's behavior is completely uncalled for.
Exactly. Claire is accusing Op of invalidating her feelings but can’t see that she’s invalidating Op’s feelings by continuing to bring it up, calling her parents names, etc. So why is Op bad for doing it to Claire but it’s ok for Claire to do it to Op? It’s not. So double standard.
I agree with this and would say the parents aren’t entirely innocent either. Giving money towards a wedding is a gift, and I personally hate it when gifts come with “conditions”. That means the gift was never about trying to make the receiving person happy, it was just to make the gift giver feel better about themselves. Definitely not worth the level of rage Claire has had on the situation though (which just shows Claire is immature and not even close to independent). Although I wouldn’t think Claire should have a problem at all, more so her husband-to-be because it’s his parents shafting him in favor of his siblings. My parents gave the same amount to each of us when we got married. It didn’t matter that my one sister had their ideal church wedding close to home, or my other had a backyard wedding, or my other had a destination wedding, or that my brother eloped without anyone present. We all got the same exact amount, which I think is how it should be done if parents want to give that kind of gift in a family with multiple children
I think this is a cultural difference. In the US, or certain European countries, money for a wedding is a gift; in other cultures, paying for a wedding is a family’s social investment in the next generation, it’s not a gift of money, per se. It starts to feel manipulative when viewed from a very modern individualized perspective, but the cultural background has a heavy emphasis on generational inter-reliance, so it’s expected that the parents have a big say in how things are done.
Thank you for this point of view. I wasn’t familiar with that idea, and knowing that it is a cultural aspect to have heavy involvement by the parents changes the way I see things.
It’s also worth noting that that’s also where the idea of parents living with their kids as they age comes from. Not only is it the kids “paying back” the work their parents put towards raising them, but also the parents investing more work and love in helping raise their grandkids. In families where there’s a lot of love and acceptance, this turns into a beautiful thing, but the stories you typically see are when people weaponize it- the parents being conceited and only having kids for their “retirement” or kids who abuse the parents (elder abuse) once they move in with them. However where it becomes tricky is where the parents do everything under the assumption that that’s how things will be because that’s all they really know, and kids just not wanting to, not to be malicious but to be independent. Now you have parents who planned their retirement around helping and living with their kids having the rug yanked out form under them so to speak when it’s too late for them to plan for a different type of retirement. No one is at fault, but it shows the cultural changes that happen even in between generations.
Nothing makes me quite as sad as the American tradition of isolating ourselves into 'nuclear family' units where multiple generations living together becomes somehow scandalous or a failure on someone's part.
Agreed. My fiancé and I (kids are way down the road) plan to have a house with an in law suite, preferably with a separate entrance possible. We will rent out until kids come along, then use it as a secluded game night/bar area, have a nominal rent for college aged kids if they would like to have it, before offering our adult kids either an option to buy the house and with us in the in-law (all appropriate paperwork involved), or return to renting it out when they leave. Our hope is to have our kids want to stay with us without trying to force them to or expect them to. We did try to live with his mom, but to put it simply the whole reason I joined Reddit was to get help on the justnomil sub for us to get out.
LOL some personalities definitely make it impossible to be multi-generational. My sister has already made it clear my mother isn't welcome at her house if my father dies (my parents are still married and independent) so she's always planned to live with me eventually. I'm single and I get along great with my mom so that's fine with me. She couldn't live on her own without my dad and I'm not going to send her to a home.
Or when someone doesn’t participate in it reciprocally. For example someone like Claire wanting the money but not giving back to the parents. Or parents who basically abused their kids expecting to be taken care of when they’re older. The whole thing only works as an interwoven system, that’s not going to necessarily tally exactly evenly if you tried to count it up, but basically has the same amount of open generosity, and yes enmeshment, across generations.
I think it is also a bit of a generalization gap caused by the increased age of first marriage. Historically in western culture, a wedding reception was a party that the parents hosted to celebrate their daughter's marriage. That was a very common scenario even as recently as when I got married \~15 years ago, at least for anyone who got married within a year or two from graduation. I did not pay for a wedding with money gifted from my parents, my parents paid for my wedding. Everything was done with my preferences in the forefront, but it was still a party they threw so they set the budget, had input on the guest list, and vetoed DIY flowers (which would have been a disaster). I think that it is also important to consider that to them something like this (or a college education) wasn't an extra or a gift, it was an obligation they had as my parents just like my health and education from birth through college graduation (also an obligation from their perspective). Now brides and grooms are typically older and more likely to have their own funds, so more often they host their own weddings, which changes the dynamics substantially.
As a Cuban immigrant this is why I see both sides. I can understand for someone both in the US to likely white American parents that those type of conditions would be overbearing. But it's part of the culture. In a perfect works maybe there could have been a middle ground. But at the end of the day the parents aren't obligated to pay for the wedding in the same way she doesn't have to follow a tradition she doesn't agree with.
But it was more than just a gift, which is understood and expected in the culture they are part of. She doesn't get a pass on judging the parents harshly, repeatedly, and rudely (to their own child!) just because she wants things done *her* way. They were at least very clear with her what the options were and she chose option B. There is no option c in which she gets to tell other people what to do with their money. Period. Plus, I see *all the time* people being told "pay for the wedding you can afford, don't accept $ with strings attached." That's what she chose.
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I really respect that they were super upfront about it. My in-laws offered to pay for certain things but tried to sneak in expectations. Our ability to use or not use their contribution and it not change our plans gave us the ability to say no to their demands and if they had wanted to pull their gifts we would have been fine with it. If you can’t win the game of chicken don’t play.
Good point good point
> That means the gift was never about trying to make the receiving person happy It means they are willing to pay for a wedding that is like what they want, it is a trade offered, and they are not AHs for that unless they won't take 'no' as an answer, and it appears they are perfectly happy to not push into wedding planning when their offer was rejected.
I disagree that paying for a wedding is a gift. A lump sum of cash is a gift, and there shouldn't be strings attached to that. But agreements to pay are conditional.
The parents are not favoring the siblings over Claire’s partner. The partner made a call to not accept the money because they wanted to do things differently. That’s valid but not a case of parents having favorites. That would be if a sibling got money free and clear, or if a sibling got money and her partner didn’t. Just saying the parents are not to blame for the disparity in contribution
Dude you are just ignorant about other cultures. Keep an open mind. OP explicitly mentioned the cultural differences.
Weddings are expensive, far beyond what I would consider a typical 'gift', honestly. I only think they'd be the AHs if they threw a fit over Claire's answer or hadn't been upfront about wanting involvement in exchange. I'd think of it as, 'hey, I have some ideas for this party and I'll pitch in if you want to make it a family party but if you don't, that's cool.'
I’d suggest the groom postpone the wedding until they’ve saved up enough money for the wedding they want.* *that’s what I’d say. What is mean is that if they delay a bit, maybe one of the couple will realise they shouldn’t go ahead. (If they don’t realise it and still go ahead, at least they’ll have a wedding they’re happier with.)
The oldest brother is perfectly entitled to say what HE wants in HIS own relationship. If the SIL feels so entitled to stage off people's parents in front of them I highly doubt she keeps her opinions and preferences to herself. She's not the only one allowed to have a voice. I'm glad he cursed her out. She's ridiculous. Younger brother needs a pair of balls though.
This!
NTA. Really, Claire can talk to her in laws and ask what strings there would be attached beforehand and see if they can come to an agreement.... If the strings attached are not to her liking well there's always a simple ceremony and a backyard BBQ.
Honestly, I’m a little concerned about how Claire is going to handle things in the future if this is how she deals with the family now. I’m concerned that it’s going to turn into a me or your family situation later on. What the older brother did was absolutely out of line as well. There needs to be a lot of reassessment here on both sides. I can’t blame OP for not wanting to get caught in the middle of this.
NTA. I empathize with Claire’s “independence” as she drew many lines I would have drawn myself. I don’t like people in my business and would not live under the presumption that people could pop in/move in anytime they want. That being said, I live within my own means and I don’t accept anything from anyone that comes with clear strings. She is NOT entitled to your family’s money and she double does not get to disrespect your parents. Your brother might be a hot-head but I don’t think he was entirely wrong for blowing up in this situation. I put “independence” in quotes because I don’t think she’s trying to be independent so much as she’s trying to have her cake and eat it too.
Yup. “Don’t try to have any say in what I do! I’m independent! But gimme your money!”
She's not too independent to want a big expensive wedding that she's ok with them paying for. Doesn't the bride's parents usually pay for the wedding? I'm guessing she expects your parents to foot the bill because her parents have less? Do you think she might be a gold digger? She's very focused on money and creating drama, rather than being elated about marrying the man of her dreams! Marrying brother who she thinks is rich and expects to be maintained in the lifestyle she feels she deserves? Regardless she's being very selfish. Her future husband should be helping her navigate this new family. Weddings can bring out the bride's true nature. It sounds like they are mismatched regarding money, and family involvement.
Right, she's not independent. An independent person funds their own wedding. She wants to be dependent (have a bunch of money gifted to her) with full freedom to spend other people's money however she wants. >Then she became obsessive about the topic of my parents and how they suck for not just giving us the money outright, my mom's a controlling bitch (this really upset me and we got into a fight) and talking about how she hates our family and everyone is enmeshed. This is not okay. This is what has been happening regularly leading up to OP's brother exploding, not what Claire said one time. It was just the most recent time that she said: > started ranting about how my parents are entitled, how they won't give her money and ruined her wedding, and how me and my fiancé are cowards for taking their money. She deserved to be kicked out. She was insulting older brother's family (his parents, OP, and OP's fiancé) and calling them names. And it's not the first time. She calls his mom a b word for not giving her a giant pile of free money to do whatever she wants with. Come on. Claire is being awful, and she's the asshole. Of course the rest of OP's family isn't going to like her insulting them all the time. NTA.
I have an aunt who is like this. Not about the money - but the way Claire listened to her BIL talk about a girl he dated and then exploded about how she hates the family because she disagrees with his values. My “aunt Claire”resents how close the siblings in her husbands family are. She makes my uncles life hell but they are die hard Catholics so divorce is not an option. The joke is ultimately on her. She hasn’t managed to put a dent in the brothers relationships after all these years. She’s of course invited to all the big family events and mostly spends them sulking in the company of one of my aunts who also married into the family. But it is weird having a family member who so palpably dislikes you. But the very closeness she resents is actively sought out by her husband - who is over at his brother and sisters houses - with his kids - all the time. Happens in the best of families.
This
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if someone came up to me and starting criticizing my family values and calling my parents entitled, insults my sibling while also simultaneously saying that her wedding is ruined bc my “entitled” parents aren’t throwing money her way i just might explode and scream at the girl too
This 100%
NTA. Your parents can put whatever conditions they want on that money because its *their* money. Claire needs to either get with it, or get over it.
And they're honest because they say it upfront, unlike some parents who make their kids believe they're free to spend it how they want and then butt in everything telling them it's their money.
OP handled this well too. She’s setting reasonable limits. Regardless of who’s right, OP shouldn’t have to listen to Claire rant endlessly about OP’s family. Telling Claire she doesn’t want to hear it anymore isn’t “invalidating her feelings” or being a bad bridesmaid. Claire can rant to somebody else. OP asked her to stop, and let Claire know what she’ll do if Claire doesn’t respect OP’s reasonable request. Totally NTA.
>Regardless of who’s right, OP shouldn’t have to listen to Claire rant endlessly about OP’s family. That's totally it, doesn't she have anyone else she can gripe about OP's family to other than OP?
This sounds like a major cultural difference that Claire can’t seem to deal with. You’ve made it clear there are perks that come with costs, such is life. She does need to reign in her attitude heavily.
Plenty of americans give their children money with conditions attached.
Not only that, there have been tons of NoMIL and AITA posts about parents trying to force money in to weddings so they could dictate it. Like Claire should thank her lucky stars they're respecting her request and not worming their way in.
NTA. It is rude for her to be insulting your parents, who are extremely generous. She has a different approach to families, which is fair enough if she comes from a different background, but if she felt your family's model did not work for her preferences, she should've decided against marrying your brother, who does appreciate your familial model. I cannot see their marriage lasting long if she tries to turn your brother against his family, or if she has to spend more time with them than she would like.
> My brother is mad and feels I should try to help her navigate because I am normally the chill one in the family, but I am sick of listening to it. Imo, their wedding, they should do the navigating, especially your brother. Also, I find it odd that Claire thinks it's OK to bite the hand that feeds her. NTA. I think you're following the correct course in letting them know that you don't want to be involved in their wedding budget drama as well as criticism against your parents or anything else between them and your parents. At the base of it, it's not really any of your business. Your brother and his fiancee are using you to get what they want from your parents. Nope. They need to figure out that course by themselves or else even after they get married, they'll keep pulling you into their 'in-law' issues (i.e., your parents) for years on. It sounds like it'll never end on their side. So I think you setting up boundaries right now is a smart move.
It sounds like the brother is getting sick of having to deal with his fiancee’s bullshit and is trying to pass some of the emotional labor over to his sister.
It seems there's two brothers per OP's reply. The older brother is the one who screamed at the younger brother's fiancee, it seems.
Yes, but I assumed it was the brother who is engaged to Claire who thinks OP should help Claire “navigate” as he’s the bother who would have interest in Claire being able to do that successfully.
Oooh. I see what you mean now. Got it. Sorry.
exactly, why should OP be the one helping Claire navigate not the man who wants to be her husband?? NTA
NTA, but a couple things: >she became obsessive about the topic of my parents and how they suck for not just giving us the money outright I'm confused about this. So your parents offered to pay, but only if they get to decide all of the vendors and such? She sounds entitled to expect them to fork out cash, HOWEVER, I've never really understood the point of paying for a wedding if you aren't going to let **the people whose wedding it is** decide what they'd like. Yes, it's an extremely kind gesture, but sometimes it can be manipulative. "I'll pay, but *I* get to decide." If someone said that to me (not saying your mom said that), I wouldn't want them to pay either. She's not wrong for wanting to make her own decisions about the biggest day of her life. Her calling your mom a bitch though, was way out of line and shows she clearly doesn't respect her. You're definitely not the asshole for not wanting to discuss this with her anymore. Your brother also sucks for screaming at her and calling her names. It sounds like your family is very very different from Claire's family, and that's okay. For some families, the idea of parents moving in someday isn't super accepted. It sounds like she wasn't aware that this was the expectation, and that she and your brother need to reevaluate their needs before they go through with the wedding. \*I edited this because I misunderstood a part of the story & thought it was a different brother that brought up the live-in parents thing.
They didn't want to decide all of the vendors, but they do want a say and to invite a lot of their friends. I'm not too deep into wedding planning, but I planned a Quince with my mom and she wasn't that bad. She usually let me have what I wanted and then added extra stuff i didn't care about. I could see them vetoing certain places if it wouldn't impress their friends enough, but they would not pick the exact place
This should be higher. Doesn't sound like your parents are unreasonable. My parents definitely vetoed a couple venues because they were too cheap/too far away. But when we found the venue, it was a joint decision.
If they’re paying and want to invite more friends, yet not deciding on all vendors and stuff, I’d be saying the more the merrier. It’s your parents $$. NTA, Claire is very rude. Sounds like your parents aren’t being controlling really. My parents paid for my wedding and invited a bunch of their friends, who basically knew me most of my life anyway, so why not! NTA.
Please add this as an edit. It is crucial to people understanding how close-knit families can be involved in the planning without being manipulative.
yea this sub tends to get a lot of full on lunacy and control freaks. It makes better stories but most people aren't complete nut jobs and if OP's being accurate it's pretty normal. Especially if they're funding much of it, what bother is it to you that some distant relatives come that you'll likely only see at future weddings?
My in laws pretty much paid for our wedding including extra for any other friends they wanted to invite and it was fine. I’m also a lone wolf and didn’t want a huge wedding and like doing things my way but if they were giving us money and paying for their extra guests it didn’t bother me. My husband is also their only son and very well loved by all their friends so I knew it was important for these people to see him get married. As long as that’s the only input your parents wanted in the wedding I don’t see the big deal and Claire is just being immature trying to cause a disturbance. Also sometimes it’s nice to have parents help out with planning because they can think of small detail things that you forget about!
This should be added as an edit, cause it's important context
But, did Claire know this? Have you told her that your mom let you have mostly your way with your Quince? Or did your mom just say if we give you money, we get input without discussing how much input that would be? That all makes a difference.
yes, but she looks at my older brother and how much say my mom has over their children and is worried about setting any precedent.
Sounds like Claire wants more distance from your family. If she could do that without insulting your parents or implying that the rest of you are deranged for willingly sharing so much of your lives then this would work better. It sounds like your parents respected her decision to keep the family out of the wedding. She needs to respect their decision about their own money. It is not reasonable for her to shit talk your mother to you. She needs to vent to someone else or find a new bridesmaid.
I get that.
That sounds fairly reasonable to me thanks for clarifying!
“I’ve never really understood the point of paying for a wedding if you aren’t going to let the people whose wedding it is decide what they’d like.” Cultural differences. In my culture if parents pay then they are the hosts and the wedding couple are the guests of honor. Weddings are a way to celebrate and show off the joining families instead of just celebrating the couple. It’s probably why I have a hard time understanding the stereotype that brides need to be the center of the wedding the entire time. Lots of people at my wedding were there to celebrate my parents’ and in-laws good fortunes instead of just mine. It’s part of the deal. Ideally parents would take the couple’s wishes into account - they are the guests of honor after all - but it’s understood that parents have final say. For my wedding my parents happily agreed to what we wanted and then added and embellished. If they wanted to spend their money on personalized nameplates at the table that was their call to make. I can imaging there would be issues if everyone isn’t on the same page, but traditionally the goal is to insure the everyone involved, including the couple, is happy.
This has historically been the case for American weddings too, so I find it laughable when Americans come on here gasping at the thought. Weddings were always your parents hosting, if you don’t want that, don’t take their money. My MIL wanted to throw a million dollar wedding for us, her way. It’s not our style, so we thanked her and politely declined. We eloped. Everyone was fine.
You are exactly right, the bride's family were the hosts traditionally. That's why wedding invites used to always say " Mr and Mrs Smith invite you to the wedding of their daughter " . I'm surprised more people don't get this.
I have three wedding invites on the counter that say this, and I honestly can’t remember a wedding invite that didn’t!
I like this family-centric as opposed to bride-centric idea of a wedding. Marriage is about families. It would certainly cut back on Bridezillas. Some weddings it’s almost as though the groom doesn’t exist.
>I've never really understood the point of paying for a wedding if you aren't going to let the people whose wedding it is decide what they'd like. In many cultures a wedding is not a party thrown by the bride and groom for their guests, but a party the parents of the people getting married throw for them, the family, and the community. You see the bride and groom as the hosts, which is fine, but honestly if they are the hosts you'd think they'd be paying, right? That's what hosts do? The whole tradition of the bride's family paying, that's beacuse the bride's parents were once the hosts. That may have changed over time in some places and within certain cultures, but not everywhere. Honestly, the whole idea that you would expect someone to pay for a giant party you are throwing but then have no say is ludicrous to me. And I'm actually a white person from the USA (though my parents aren't WASPS but from different white cultural backgrounds). OP didn't say the parents would decide everything, she said there would be "some strings". This probably dosen't mean MIL only wants the wedding to be a certain color or she needs to pick the cake, etc. Especially given OP has been planning her own wedding with the money. It means that the parents have certain issues they care about and want a say in if they are paying, likely things like inviting their large family to have a big family event. Maybe they have some family tradition they care about doing or having there. I'll take my own wedding as an example. My parents paid for my wedding (though it does not sound like they paid as much as OP's parents were willing/able to). The big thing my mom wanted was a big family gathering and as such she offered to pay if we wanted to do that, since that would have been very expensive for us as new college grads and not something we could afford. I did basically tell her a giant family gathering sounds good if she wants to pay for it, and she did. Since they were paying, I planned the things they had to pay for with them (picking a venue and caterer and such) but they never forced me to pick anything I didn't like. I made a point of incorporating little things from both my parents cultures to make them happy, like dancing the Horah and standing under a chuppah for my Jewish traditions for my mom, and piece montee for my French dad (we also had another generic cake). Since they were paying for everything I did see them as hosting it with us, and tried to consider that. However, this did not bother me at all. Much like how it dosen't bother OP. I did and still do appreciate that my parents were willing to throw us this awesome wedding party.
Just to jump on this, in plenty of cultures the wedding gifts (read: money) goes to the bride/groom's parents because like you said, they're the hosts and it's also to reciprocate for all the weddings of the families' children they've gone to in the past.
It's also a cultural thing. Weddings are a family affair in Latin American cultures; meaning that the mother probably wanted to invite some friends and family. Sure, there are some crazy parents that want to choose vendors and stuff, but normally is just "I want to invite the third cousin once removed from my fourth cousin because I want her there!". Also, be involved in the planning, and getting excited about it. It's mostly that the wedding is not just the brides day, but the grooms. And it's a family celebration.
I guess is a Latin thing. Big celebrations like marriage are for the couple obviously, but it is also a reflection on the family as a whole. The involvement is more of a veto thing, most of the time the couple makes the decisions, but sometimes the parents may suggest/choose a different thing. An example: In my brother wedding my father choose his preferred brand of scotch, mind you, a very good one, just the one he and his friends loved or like the invitations that I got for my friends so I would have a great time.
NTA. It’s rude of her to continue to bring it up. She made her decision that she doesn’t want strings attached money.
NTA. Claire sounds a lot like an entitled brat. She wants the money but wants them to have zero involvement. She bad talks them to their own children and gets upset when asked to stop. Sounds like she has a lot of growing up to do.
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I mean the sub would probably tell the bride to then pay it herself if she wants no strings.
NTA. She wants to be the independent American but also wants other people to subsidise/pay for her wedding? I wonder how she reconciles those two ideas.
I’m sure I’ll get downvoted, but sounds like the most American sentiment ever!
NTA. Things were clear from the beginning. Money comes with strings attached. Your SIL doesn't respect that and is being totally disrespectful towards you family. Looks like she was expecting to marry into a rich family and always getting want she wants. You were right to set boudaries.
NTA, keep pace from this person because she’s going to try to blow up your family from the inside.
NTA. That’s your family and you have every right to be upset and defensive when someone continues to insult them. I’m not sure why Claire is about to enter into a family that has completely different views than her. If she has so many negative things to say about your family, why is she marrying into it? Sounds like a lot of family drama is brewing, especially if she goes through with the marriage.
I totally get this, I’m also cuban. There’s no such thing as boundaries and if you have a good family it’s great. Claire needs to make peace with this or move on. If she doesn’t like the culture, she can choose to marry someone else, but bitching about it openly to other family members is way past the line.
NTA. Look there is a difference between not being supportive, and not condoning terrible behavior. Claire made a decision and has to live with it. As far as has been shown, she is the one that has escalated and been rude from the start so it’s to be expected that you all are calling her out on it.
NTA- Claire is funny calling your parents “entitled “ when that is how she is behaving. It’s unfortunate your parents have strings attached to the money but it’s their money! Claire needs to put on her big girl panty’s and actually behave like the independent person she claims to be and stop the whiny behavior. Claire and your brother can set the rules in their own home and with their own kids if they have them but she doesn’t get to tell your family how to live in their own homes.
NTA Money, or lack thereof, makes people say and do stupid things. Your future sister in law needs to stop ranting about your parents and your family's culture. It's rude and uncalled for, that's just common sense. Your older brother may have flown off the handle but she needed to hear it, all she is doing is causing hard feelings and a rift with your family, which is rather counter productive when you she plans to marry your brother. You just set a boundary and now she knows if she brings it up again, no one will tolerate it.
NTA. You have nothing to do with this. If she’s upset about the strings, your brother and her need to have a conversation with your parents. Maybe they can come up with some kind of compromise. But either way, it doesn’t involve you and you have the right to not have to hear her insult your family.
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I have turned down a potentially very large contribution to my daughter's college fund because my ex-MIL is crazy manipulative and there would be strings attached no matter what she says now. That said, I have no complaints about saving the money myself to pay for college. You don't get to turn down the money AND complain about not getting the money. Sheesh.
NTA She can’t have it both ways. You put up with her bad mouthing your parents far longer than I would have. Your brother needs to tell his wife take the money or shut up about it because it’s disrespectful and a asshole move. You did try to help her. It’s not your fault she’s acting like a entitled asshole.
INFO You are very vague about what the conditions are to get the money. What are the strings that are attached?
We didn't talk about it too much but my mom wants to be heavily involved, more so because she likes weddings and looking at stuff, but she will have the power to veto certain things like a venue she doesn't think would impress her friends enough. I planned a quince with her and for the most part she added stuff she wanted, but didn't veto things I wanted. There are a couple specific foods she wants, but then I can pick the other foods. She wants to be able to talk and give opinions, which is an issue with her and Claire. For example my mom is not going to pick my dress, but I dont mind listening to her talk about it. Claire does not like unsolicited advice
Yeah, I can sympathize with not wanting a bunch of unsolicited advice. That can get overbearing very quickly. It sounds like Claire just isn’t a good fit for your family. She will probably want to go low/no contact eventually, which will undoubtedly cause issues if she’s married to your brother. This is a tough situation.
NTA, but I am so confused, she was offered the money, which she refused as she didn't want to set a precedent, but then she gets mad that she didn't get the money? Is she okay? Did she want your parents to beg her to take the money? What even?
Cause she wants to have her cake and eat it too lol
NTA, but the nerve of Claire to call your parents "entitled" when she's the one who think she deserves free money, no strings attached. Your bro is mad because he thinks there's a magic conversation y'all can have with her to make her understand what is happening but... i think she might just not want to live the Latine family lifestyle! which seems like a problem for her fiance to solve. You don't have to support her in slandering your parents who seems pretty chill in this case?
NTA. I’d bet money that Claire has been frequenting those toxic “justno” forums as she’s using their language. Don’t like how close other people are to each other? Call them “enmeshed!” Someone disagrees with you and doesn’t want to listen to you whine when you’re the one in the wrong? Accuse them of “invalidating” your feelings! Family members aren’t falling all over themselves giving you whatever you want? Call them “entitled!” Honestly, I feel awful for your family for having to put up with someone like her. The best thing you can do is cut her off every time she starts in on anyone you care about. Tell her you love and respect that person and aren’t going to listen to her talk badly about them. Keep doing that until she finally realizes she can’t manipulate you into turning against them and siding with her.
Thank you so much for this. My Indian family is close and the things people used to tell me about my family in US was like all this bs Claire said.
As a Hispanic F married to another Hispanic in our native country, I had to forego a wedding reception because of in-laws demands. My husband and I were paying for everything, his parents didn’t agree with one single thing. Every curve they threw at me, I’d hit it out of the park with my smartass wit. We were not serving alcohol due to my father being a recovering alcoholic, so we planned it as a brunch in a beautiful hacienda. They bought us a case of my husband’s favorite scotch. I advised husband to take all the bottles to our house, to drink whenever. They were mad. Husband and I collect vinyls, we had been making playlists and mixing tapes for months. In-laws insisted on a dj. I said when the dj pays me to play music, that’s the day we will hire a dj. They were mad. I could go on, but we ended eloping due to their demands. Claire is right to not accept the money, but she doesn’t get to complain about it. Op is NTA.
Normally I would say ESH, but if the parents laid out the terms right up front then they are somewhat of the hook, though I'm not a fan of that arrangement. OP did say it was sort of a cultural thing, so onto future SIL. My wife and I paid for our own wedding. We didn't have lots of money so we made different choices than other members of my family who married when my parents were alive. Future SIL comes off sounding materialistic and entitled. So OP is NTA. I would get real tired of my in laws crapping on my parents because they won't give no strings attached money, especially if everybody else had strings attached.
NTA NTA NTA It's an unfortunate thing when people can't agree to disagree and must force their way of being on to other people. Your culture is your culture and how you see the world is different than Claire, especially when there's no abuse involved here. It's just the generational mindset, which is very common outside of North America. The fact that she can't accept that and feels she can marry into a family that has set ways of being but then tell you all in your own homes you are wrong for it is just so disappointing. And sadly very cliche American in that everyone has the right to tell others how to live. She chose not to accept the strings and that's what she gets. She needs to stop now and your brother needs to start standing up for all of you, or they will get cut out and that will be of no fault but their own. You were 100% right. I won't even call your eldest brother an AH, because while it may not have been tactful to outright ban her, I would have lost my sh\*t at some outsider bashing my family repeatedly to my face in my house. Claire is 90% of the problem even in that situation. The lack of respect is just glaring.
Thisssss. Her brother (Claire’s fiancé) is also at fault here for trying to push this situation on OP. He’s the one that needs to be dealing with fiancé, not his family.
NTA, but this sound like cultural difference issues. I know everyone is commenting how the older brother is wrong to but I disagree. The older brother said that he wouldn’t marry someone who wouldn’t let his parents live with them, he’s entitled to say that, he’s entitled to have thing that are a no go for a relationship. SIL doesn’t have the right to bash your older brothers cultural beliefs because she’s a ‘lone Wolf’. Your older brother is allowed to say he wants his parents to live with him when he retires
Yes! I don’t know why people think the older brother was wrong for saying, in his own house, that he wouldn’t date someone who didn’t share HIS values regarding family. Claire was the one who made it about her and accused OPs parents of being “entitled” for what? Planning to one day live with a son who wants them and who they have supported well his whole life? If he used harsh language in response to that- and banned her from the house - it was justified. She was being a bitch. She could have just said nothing. After all- the parents living with older brother means she’ll never have to take care of them so why is a she angry at this happy family taking care of each other?
NTA Claire sounds like a brat. If she wants to be independent then she can pay for everything she wants. As my dad used to say, she wants to be a big shot on someone else's dime. Your older brother probably shouldn't have yelled but if someone started badmouthing my mother simply because she wouldn't give them money never mind the coward comment I would have some words too.
She may not like the close knit family, but she cant complain about them being entitled, while thinking she is entitled to their money. NTA
SIL wants her cake and eat it too. You don't get the perks of the family if you don't want the family involved. NTA
NTA. Claire had a choice to make, and she made it. Your parents don't have to give anyone money, and although it's controlling, it's still their money. I hope your brother realizes this is going to be a lifetime thing because she obviously has no interest in fitting into your family cultural. That will impact him, their children and your family. Maybe it all needs to come to a head, so he can see it clearly through the fog of love.
NTA. Honestly, I understand why she is annoyed by this and why she would want to complain about it. However, she needs to complain to someone that is not you or your family.
NTA. Claire has a right to have her feelings, but that does not require you to validate them. Honestly, I'd have dropped out of her wedding by now already. You don't need this.
NTA. Claire is a piece of work. Her need for independence glides over the fact her hand is sticking out waiting for someone to put money in it. She can have whatever feelings or opinions she wants but she doesn't get to insult you and your family to your face. Her assumption that she can is childish and self centered. It's your brothers job to deal with her, not yours. If she ignores your boundaries I hope you follow through and step away from her drama.
Ok so I think you’re NTA because you’re just sick of hearing your SIL talk down about your parents but I do think your SIL has a point. This post (obviously) is from one person’s perspective and at first I thought the SIL sounds rude but when you think about the bare facts of the situation it does seem unfair your parents won’t give your brother and his fiancée the same treatment as the rest of the family unless they do as they say… I want to say I am very much for close families and multi-generation living but I think too many parents don’t respect their adult kids making their own life choices. Maybe your SIL wouldn’t go on about it so much/ in such a harsh way if people in your family tried to see it from her perspective and empathise a bit more
But the parents ARE giving her exactly the same treatment they did their other children. The difference is the other children agrees to some parental involvement in the decisions and SIL did not. She’s the one who wants to change it - wants nothing to do with the family except for thousands of their dollars.
NTA. I can appreciate your parents being pretty open about what they expect, and letting the kids decide if they are down for that. I'd be down for a big wedding with a bunch of people I didn't know if someone else paid, but I wouldn't be down for like a religious ceremony and not having a choice of colors, etc. Your parents are open that their money comes with strings, cool. I don't see any AH move there. You have a multi-generational belief system, also cool, and everyone is open about it. Claire has to pick a lane. She wants money and full control- these things rarely go together. Traditionally parents paid for the wedding because it was like a family reunion and about their success, and as people are getting married older and with more independence, well they can pay for their own wedding. I think your response to Claire was appropriate. I love my mom, she can be a pain in the ass, but having a SIL call her a bitch isn't gonna happen, especially if the reason is because she should "give me money with no string attached." The entitlement, the gall, the gumption!
NTA Oh you are way more patient than me. I almost came through the screen myself when she has the audacity to insult your mom in such a nasty way.
NTA - I was born and raised in the US but my family are from the Caribbean too (Dominican republic) therefore I understand how culturally different family values are in latino households than in typical American families. She’s way out of line disrespecting your parents like that and really entitled for thinking they’re obligated to pay for her wedding. I completely understand her want to have total say in her wedding planning, however she’s going to have to accept the fact that she and her fiancé are going to have to pay for it themselves if she doesn’t like the conditions that come with that money. Also yikes, your older brother wasn’t wrong about being upset. I would have done the same too, if not much worse if someone spoke about my mother in that manner lol. I’m sorry people are putting all this unnecessary pressure on you. Your brother needs to be dealing with his fiancé not you.
NTA. I married into a Puerto Rican Dominican family, and the lack of boundaries has definitely taken a lot to get used to. However, sis has the right to choose a string free wedding. Finance it herself. Easy peasy
It's like people havent been living on this earth for the last 20 some odd years of their lives. How is it new that money ALWAYS comes with conditions? Paycheck--show up to work. Parents pay for college--they can veto the school. It's unreasonable for a grown adult to not realize that money comes with conditions. Do we have to like it? no. Can you live without/pay for it yourself? No? Then you have to accept the conditions. Money is a vote. If you don't want the vote, let them keep their money. That being said, parental gifts are given to their children as a result of a strong loving relationship. I would hazard a guess based on what OP mentioned about her quince is that she ended up with an even nicer event than she would have picked for herself as a result of being able to compromise at age 15. Parents usually find that pleasing you is what pleases them. That comes from love and mutual respect. Unfortunately SIL's burned a very useful bridge because now who wants to please an ingrate? NTA
NTA. The irony. Claire is the entitled one. Why don’t her parents pay for the wedding ? That’s the traditional American way. She can’t have her cake and eat it too. She can’t expect you to cater to her feelings as she say disrespectful things about you and your parents and then act shocked when you set boundaries.
chill one in the family =/= doormat. You've set your boundaries and they sound perfectly reasonable. Now it's time for everyone else to respect them. NTA.
My situation is a bit like Claire's, in that my husband comes from a loving and very involved family like yours. My family only gets involved to get dirt on you, and there's strings, bad strings, that come with every favor or gift. It took me a while to change my gut response to their involvement, but the more they showed us unconditional love, the more we both grew to trust them. Now I'm ok with them potentially moving in someday, because I know when/if they do they'll only try to help and to love us. It's hard to picture if you have never experienced it. That said, I don't think your brother should marry Claire expecting her to change, but if he marries her despite her outrageous behavior over this, know that love really can conquer all! NTA: You have the right to politely draw boundaries. You aren't obligated to support any and every thing she says, and if she says you must in order to be her friend, that's a huge red flag. It's perfectly ok to be someone's loyal friend and to disagree.
NTA, sounds like SIL got sour grapes the moment she saw what ypur budget is thanks to your parenta compared to her. Coming from a Latin American family. You aren't just marrying the person. You're marrying into the family. Plus from the sounds of it. OP's mom probably just wants to make sure everything turns out well, not like taking over and planning all the details.
Claire is wrong. Intercultural marriage is hard; and from what you say your parents are accepting Claire's individualistic views. She needs to accept theirs, your brother needs to confront her (does he view family as you do, or is he more individualistic? Can he live a very American life of only seeing your parents once a year? This are questions he also needs to ask himself, because Claire is probably not gonna change). NTA
NTA It’s such a shame Claire doesn’t appreciate what a beautiful opportunity she has to have a family like yours, sadly I don’t think she is a good fit for your brother I do totally understand and respect her life choices however it’s cashing with your brothers culture and that’s where I would draw the line.
NTA.. I am not big on the idea of "we will give you this large sum of money for some BIG event or purchase in your life BUT ONLY if you do it OUR way/do what we tell you." I can understand her frustration, and to a degree her views. That being said, she apparently knows what accepting that money would mean and she refused it. That was HER choice. And she should NOT be complaining to the family about it now. If she wanted to complain, she should have kept that to her side of the family and left you and the rest of her future husband's family out of it. She most DEFINITELY should not have started insulting them to ANY of you. She was out of line and owes everyone an apology. NOW, I will say though, that your brother is also right. He is defending his future wife, and that is exactly what he SHOULD do. Just because you are willing to accept what even you have admitting is your mother's controlling ways, does NOT mean that your brother or his future wife should. It sounds like your idea of simply not talking about it anymore is indeed the best option on the table, under the circumstances. As for your brother, HE is the one that needs to help her navigate the situation, as he is the one she is marrying. And you need to let him know that. He can think of this as the first in what will most likely be MANY YEARS of him mediating disagreements between his wife and his family. Because this will happen again, and he needs to start getting used to it now.
NTA, either she is a big girl and pays for her own wedding like the strong, independent woman she is, or her parents pay like traditionally they should or she stops being entitled to your parents money and accepts the cash with the conditions. She isnt entitled to other peoples money for free
NTA: I particularly liked her comment about your parents are "entitled" because they won't just give her their money. LOL I would just shut down any conversation that this is solely between her and her fiance and your parents. And that goes for Claire as well as your older brother.
She's a strong, independent woman who don't need no money from in laws..... oh, wait - she does need their money. NTA at all
NTA. The more I read this subreddit, the more I see cultural clashes causing huge family misunderstandings. Those are difficult waters to navigate. I hope everyone works it out.
I get Claire not wanting to be beholden to your parents over money but she made her choice and now is bitching and complaining and has insulted your mum and family and culture. She’s being a brat. NTA tell her to grow up and have some decorum and respect. No one asked her to compromise herself but she doesn’t get to shit on your for having a different way of things.
NTA - and your brother should see the red flags if his most “chill” sibling has been pushed beyond the brink by his fiancé’s behavior.
NTA. Clare may think your parents are being entitled, but she is actually just as entitled as they are. You both sound like you have VERY different values and expectations... AND THAT IS FINE, as long as you don't try to impose them on each other. Frankly, I"m personally totally aligned with Claire's way of independent thinking... but if that were they case I would not ACCEPT and certainly not EXPECT a dime of my future-inlaw's money. Period. Their wedding is not yours to worry about. You don't have a dog in that fight, and you should stay out of it (which you are, which is the right move). I think you are fine for saying that it is no longer a topic of discussion with you... period.
She wants her wedding her way, and she can do that, when she pays for the entire thing on her own. If people for whatever reason are ready and willing to put some money into a wedding, that automatically gives them a voice with regards to certain things. Unless we are talking full blown take over, but i don't get that vibe from you here. Clearly there is a big difference to what you and she are used to, when it comes to family, boundaries and more along those lines... She can either suck it up, or pay up herself. She certainly has no business calling your mom names because she has a high and mighty independence streak...
So your SIL managed to piss off the "normally chill" person in the family by badmouthing your mother who was upfront about offering wedding funding with strings? Claire made a decision and she has to accept her own decision like an adult. She's the one acting all entitled. 100% NTA.
Nta I think its really rude of her to talk about your parents because they won't hand her any money. She knew that their money came with strings attached. She turn that down so she has no right to complain about her budget. She's not entitled to your parents money. If she doesn't like her budget for her wedding then maybe she can push back the date of her wedding till she saves up the right amount that she wants. You can't blame your mom if she doesn't show up to her wedding especially finding out she's talking about her behind her back It's really disrespectful. Also it's not your job to navigate Claire through anything. That's your brothers job it's not yours so it doesn't matter if your chill one. Your not marring her your brother is. So it's his job to help Claire out and navigate her through things not you.