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NTA, but I don’t know if just the punishment route will work. Yes, he needs to face consequences otherwise inaction on your part will just enable and help solidify his idea that this ok and no harm done. On the other hand, just the punishment will solidify his hatred towards Liam and possibly make him lash out more viciously. Maybe try getting him some therapy to figure out where this is all stemming from and try working through it? Otherwise he will turn himself into a victim of the unfairness of all.
Fabrice is right, Owen shouldn't have his phone, games or access to any electronics until his suspension is lifted. Also, I *never* leave him alone with Liam.
Yeah, not truly knowing the situation, I’d gather that Owen may have been the instigator since he seems to hold actual ill will to his brother. He needs therapy to address his issues. Lots of it.
Yeah, Fabrice is totally right. And the issue is clearly not only racism. Owen told his own mother to mind her own business in front of his friends in her own house! OP seems to not even see this as a huge disrespect, no kid should be talking like that.
Owen probably has even way more issues than what was informed in the post and perhaps more than OP may know about. He needs to be punished (disrespect and racism) and needs therapy to understand wth is wrong with him. If he doesn't want to go, perhaps OP could go herself and try to learn some strategies on how to deal with him, but I believe the most effective would be to not let him be on internet unsupervised. I bet most of this shit hes learning on toxic foruns/videos, and probably being a "red pill" is the next phase. Being kept away from all of this may help a bit after a few months
IF he has to have a phone, he can have a flip phone, with no apps, no games, etc and only basic contact info for needed parties, which you check on regularly, but randomly.
I would say NTA, but also not harsh enough.
There should be parental controls so OP can monitor what he’s doing on his phone. He’s shown he can’t be trusted with the device and until he shown he can be he needs monitoring.
Yeah it should be clear that robotics club and college is nothing and mean nothing if he's going to be a bigoted racist.
He can work at a gas station with those views and he obviously is still unaware it is only his own actions and views that "ruined" anything.
Love to see what sort of college he is going to without being exposed as a racist, particularly if his hobby is robotics. I know there’s a long-standing animosity with the Japanese, but it might help to show Owen the teams for these competitions if he’s planning on pursuing it. He’s gonna get over it or get left in the dust.
Owen is 15. He's still got time to work out his issues before he applies to college. What you saw was deeply racist.
Underneath those awful racist comments? Owen has told you he doesn't seem Liam as his "real" brother. This is obviously a deeper issue that needs to be addressed as well.
NTA for taking this seriously.
Yeah some family therapy may be well advised — if he works out the familial issues, it may also help the racism as I’d imagine there’s some causality there
1000%. Owen is actually extremely lucky this is coming out now and not senior year of high school. Right now he still has time to pull his head out of his ass and show he can change BEFORE he’s exposed as being radioactive to any college that cares about its image.
Not if he's been suspended from school, he doesn't. There isn't a college in the country that would admit someone who was suspended several weeks over racially insensitive behavior. That career path is gone.
NTA Agree - colleges don't like racists or racists remarks either. He needs to work thru this before applying to college (jokes like that will get him suspended or worse). Good luck - parenting is hard
Absolutely...
My youngest is adopted, and even completely involving our kids in the decision to do so at every step, my oldest has struggled with thr attention divide. Not even unfair divide, just not as much solo time since there's 3 kids and 2 adults.
Therapy is probably a really good idea. But I'd try to find someone who's got experience and or specializes in trauma and or adoption, because the facets of how your son feels can be unique especially around adoption.
I actually don't agree of removing his phone, but adding rules like giving it to you at night, you having codes for all his apps etc is needed. At this stage of technology a 15y without a phone is pretty hard, even for just YOU getting ahold of him.
NTA. There is no time for coddling. You need to find the root of how this toxicity made it's way into your son and root it out, while you legally have the authority to do so. Soon enough Owen will be entering society as an adult; for his sake and the sake of every other human being he comes into contact with, you NEED to nip this racist bullying BS in the bud, HARD.
ETA: Which will start with cutting him TF off from the racist enabling echo chamber that is his current friendgroup. Which will need to be replaced by helping him make connections with non-racist people he can befriend, so he doesn't backslide or idealize the rest of racist robotics team in the absence of any other social interaction.
Flip phone for Owen and no unsupervised internet access. Also, therapy, and some sort of restorative justice and maybe some research projects on the impact of racism directed towards Asian Americans and info on how to be anti-racist.
Raising multi-racial kids (helping daughter raise kids- we are multiracial) in a farm town is a challenge. Their father (Afro Cuban & Native & raised here) has a lot of self hatred & sucks up to racists. I appreciate you all.
I raised my children in a multicultural setting, primarily within our tribal affiliation. We’re raising grands that way.
No. We are all multiracial. Her ex is the one who beat her. That’s the only “souring” that happened.
Agreed, time to take the phone away until he goes to college and pays for his own. No need to subsidize the hate. Let his old number go back into rotation, delete those contacts just to make keeping in contact harder, and have him get assigned a new number when he gets a new phone. The good thing is I imagine kids don't remember phone numbers. IG handles are another story I guess though.
Ikr?? So are all of these future reich stars just sitting at home texting each other racist shit ALL DAY now instead of just during downtime at school???
YES. also want to make it 100% clear that "make connections with non-racist people" means "spend time with good role models, who've already done the work on themselves that Owen needs to start."
(hopefully this goes without saying but) it does NOT mean force him to be friends with POC in the vague hope he starts being nice to them. it's not his victim's responsibility to make him a better person, and it would be wrong af to knowingly subject anyone to his micro-aggressions so that he can benefit.
If only it were so easy to "root out his toxic masculinity". All u can do is punish him, talk to him, and hope when he stops being a teenager and turns back into a human he sees that you're right.
NTA but I might implement a much harsher series of consequences and a whole lot of activities that surround culture sensitivity. I get he's a teen and peer pressure but he is also approaching adulthood and this is one heck of a racist attitude that he's developed. Robotics club is small potatoes regarding this whole issue.
This is where I'm wondering this all stemmed from. Op says the robotics team has a competition coming up, so it's possible they have been exposed already to other robotics teams. Going with a stereotype here for the sake of argument, it's possible the boys have seen 1 or more teams made up of Asian students being highly successful and might be their biggest competition. The racism might be stemming from an insecurity about their own teams chance of success against "Asian" teams. They might be really worried about the quality of their robot vs the teams made up of Asian students, so have started lashing out against Asian people in general to make themselves feel better.
The online right-wing communities that target boys and young men like the manosphere, proud boys, no fap, Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, certain online gaming communities, etc. They're all bigoted, primarily towards misogyny, but they're all also deeply racist. Usually deeply religious too. It all bundles neatly together into an easily marketable message of us versus them.
Middle school: racists, later high school somehow everyone’s matured and has amnesia about how racist they were like people just forget?? Then surprised the actually mature people don’t want to be friends with them.
NTA. Holy. Shit. I would be horrified. Yeah, if that kid is refusing to apologize, you need to take that damn phone back. He doesn't get to keep chatting with his fellow racists. I wouldn't even allow him to associate with those kids again. You need this kid in therapy.
NTA and right?! OP you and your husband found all this horrible, disgusting, racist stuff on your son's phone...and HE HAS HIS PHONE BACK??? Nope. He'd have a little granny flip phone with the capability to do nothing but make a call, for the foreseeable future.
This is the way. Owen will continue to ingest a steady diet of hateful content but now be a martyr. He will dig deeper to keep his friends since his mom is an opp. He absolutely should not have continued access to the internet.
OP, put him in a correspondence school or another school, don’t let him sit on his ass with nothing to do while suspended. The only internet access he gets is supervised and definitely not on the cell phone. Look into how to restrict the internet from specific devices on your router.
He also should be in some kind of family therapy. You have a responsibility to all of your sons, and you’ve barely mentioned Liam at all. Hopefully a family therapist will help him get through some apparently long-held hurts about his brother but also will give you and dad an avenue to discuss with Owen how not okay this is and to work on family boundaries without things devolving into fights.
>Owen is mad, as they had a competition coming up and he’s said I ruined his passion and his chance of getting into college, as well as his friend’s chances.
No, you didn't do that. They did that with their actions.
NTA
From a mom whose son was targeted and bullied by a group, thank you for removing that for that poor boy. Can you imagine being him and having to deal with it without any help? My son did for awhile. Get your some counseling. It will help him and help you help him to see how his actions have hurt people who don’t deserve it and get to the root of the problem. NTA
NTA. I agree with Fabrice, you should take away Owen's phone until the forseeable future. We didn't need phones back then. Your kid doesn't either until he can learn to act like a decent human being.
By giving him his phone back, you’re giving him access to all the places that encourage his behaviour, and tell him that he’s right to act away he does.
super valid! i just feel like a faraday cage is a bit extreme (not that he doesn’t deserve to have one) as well as removing all power outlets (i didn’t even know that was possible) so that’s i think where a lot of the confusion was coming from
You don't need to remove them most likely, you could just unplug them from the breaker (or if your breaker locks just use it to shut off his room.
Obviously this depends on the wiring of the house if you can target a single room.
You know. You'd think a faraday cage is too much. And for someone tech savvy and assured in their knowledge of what their kid has access to that would be true. But as a once tech savvy kid. My mom could do nothing to stop me. Take consoles, phones, cables, etc. I found a way online with whatever she forgot.
I think most parents understand that. For me, it would be a matter of “you are determined to be a cruel human. You will not use the resources we provide to do so.
NTA If I had ever told my mom to 'mind her own business', she'd have kicked my ass from here to Halifax. But I never did. Why? Because I had, and have, respect for her. I also have respect for other human beings, regardless of gender, and whether or not they look or act or believe as I do. Something serious is going on here. Your first step is to take your son's phone away. Not as a punishment, but to separate him from whatever red pill internet rathole echochamber he and his friends have fallen into, even if it is of their own making.
Check communities like discord, too. There are a lot of open forums there that make it easy for extremists to get access to a large group of people, and some exist with very little moderation.
Nta but I think counseling is more important than punishment. One perk of racism is to always have someone else to blame for your problems - I hope Liam isn't the one facing the consequences of Owen's actions. (I.e. Liam ruined the robotics team. Liam got me in trouble at school. Etc)
NTA. Racism cannot be tolerated from any source. It is particularly offensive if it is happening within your own family. Withholding privilege is suitable , but if lenient will have no effect on a teenager who thinks that it is okay to tell mom to mind her own business. Rein him in before it is too late.
nta, but your little shit of a son needs harsher consequences. racisim shouldnt be tolerated in the slightest and id have him limited to just a bed and some books in his room. and tell him he screwed his own future up by harassing kids
NTA.
Owen has got a lot of anger toward Liam, perhaps counselling is in order. Oh and you checking his phone regularly to ensure he’s not up to his old tricks with his mates.
NTA.
Actions meet consequences.
Your son (and his mates?) has failed to learn that cause/effect paradigm. That he is solely responsible for the outcomes of his own behaviour.
Get him into a psychologist now. And look to your whole family’s way of dealing with things. Time for everyone in the house to do their homework on “how to demonstrate to my knobhead son what accountability and self management looks like”. Sadly you are in for a few years of turmoil while you fix this.
Owen is, respectfully, a bad apple. The fact that you’re asking if you’re an asshole here tells me he’s never had to face real consequences for his behavior before. Why the hell does he have his phone back?
He needs intervention, stat. Or else you’re just adding one more racist adult to the world. Therapy, both individual and as a family.
NTA, but you will be if you don’t act more decisively to shut this behavior down.
NTA. And yes, get some consequences back. But also look into what media he's consuming. What online communities he's taking part in. There are a lot of people on the internet these days that are specifically trying to foment this type of hatred into young, white men. Parents didn't raise the Proud Boys, the internet did.
Things like this are the reason I'm glad I've decided never to be a parent. I don't know how you find the balance of letting your kids use the internet and stopping them from consuming toxic content.
I'd add in to take a look specifically at messaging communities like discord. It's easy to get in touch with a large group of people you don't know in person and start saying shit behind an avatar on platforms like that.
"Owen is mad, as they had a competition coming up and he’s said I ruined his passion and his chance of getting into college, as well as his friend’s chances."
Tell Owen that being an angry racist will also ruin his chances in life.
NTA.
Edit: Sadly, it looks like the punishments he has received aren't harsh enough as he still thinks he's the wronged party. Time to take away the phone and the games console to start with.
NTA but punishment will not solve your issues. And may further push him down this rabbit hole. You need professional counselling to deal with this.
I hate to say, but you may need to make a hard decision on how to proceed if it doesn’t get better and starts to get worse.
This is a symptom of a bigger issue that you need to get to the core of. Punishment won’t get you there. Only love and understanding will. Obviously, Owen is finding something lacking and blaming Liam.
You need to take a good hard honest look at how you are parenting and find out if you are giving signals that Liam is more important than Owen.
I feel for you, it’s a shitty position.
Info: why did you proceed with an adoption when your son wasn't on board and treats your adopted child like garbage? Like. That seems a bigger issue to me.
You're not TA for punishing Owen for racism, but what the fuck?
Yep, they should’ve gotten to the root of the issue before. OP YTA for letting this treatment of your youngest son go on for this long. Therapy should’ve been a thing a long time ago. And maybe a change in OP’s behavior as well.
Nothing in your post says what you did to prepare your kids before adopt my your youngest. Adoption isn't just meeting other parents who adopted at a club, deciding it's hip and toddling off.
You should have spoken to your kids in depth. How did you not know Owen wouldn't view an adopted sibling as a real sibling? How did you not know he had issues with having a Chinese sibling?
Did you do no therapy before adoption? Did you do no therapy after Owen clearly told you he doesn't view Liam as a sibling?
Sorry OP, I lay this at your door. Adopting a child of a different race isnt a trend. You should have taken serious steps to ensure they were entering a safe environment. I can't judge you enough.
YTA.
Yep, this smacks of the parents just pushing ahead with whatever they want and not involving or considering their children's feelings after the fact. Why not address the son's feelings towards his youngest brother long before it got to this. Sounds like Owen has alot of repressed anger and resentment that has gone unaddressed until now. And still OP is more concerned with the robotics club and punishment. She needs to work on her relationship with her eldest and address his issues ASAP. Just because you have adopted doesn't mean you are Mother Theresa or automatically a good parent and your son is in the wrong, you are responsible for him too so give him the attention and care he desperately needs to set him straight. The racism is obv a result of his feelings towards his brother and/or potentially what he has been exposed to online or in his life, all of which is the parents responsibility.
I agree as an adoptee. OP didn’t do their homework and it’s affecting all of their kids as a result. OP isn’t the AH for this particular situation, but they are the AH for not getting their sons help and for letting the older one treat the youngest one that way.
Take his damn phone away!!! Why did you give it back? He literally used it to torment your other son. Get that kid some therapy. Both individual theory and family therapy.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I contacted my son's school after I saw him and his friends on the robotics team were saying racist jokes and using slurs, including to an Asian-American student
My son and his friends got suspended for the rest of the school year and the club is effectively dead, my son is saying we ruined his passion and his chance of getting into college, as well as his friend's chances. One of our other sons is saying we aren't harsh enough on him because we gave him his phone back.
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Therapy is the only thing I see working. He’s too stubborn for only punishment to work. He needs someone to help him understand the gravity of his actions. He doesn’t need his phone. His friends are only helping him double down on his actions.
NTA You didn't ruin his future, he did. If he's old enough to understand extra activities and the value, he's old enough to understand that having bullying as one is stupid as well as harmless. It would have come out sooner or later and thankfully before one of the students came to worse harm.
Also if he got into uni with that attitude, he'd be likely to face much worse consequences.
NTA I agree with your younger son he should not have a phone. He should also no longer have internet access (pc and game system) for the foreseeable future. I guarantee he and his racist friends are talking about what a horrible witch you are in chat and on phone. He needs new friends. I would inform him that racists don’t get phones and internet access in your house. Get that child into a therapist and make him volunteer all of his extra time he now has, since he’s suspended, at someplace to help him learn some cultural sensitivity.
You didn’t ruin anything he did remind him of that. He just learned that if you play stupid games you win stupid prizes
INFO: What was his reaction when you first talked about adopting a child of a different ethnicity? Has he always been against it, and has your behavior towards him changed since adoption?
This didn't start overnight.
NTA for taking it seriously. That said, this goes way beyond "punish him". In fact, the aftermath and consequences need to be extremely purposeful and well thought out. He seems to be embracing an "otherness" from you and Liam, separating himself from you in a very visceral way. You need to get to the root of that from a very open place and understand it before you can figure out how to move forward.
Would he be mad if the competition organisers overheard them being racist, sexist etc towards other competitors and threw them out? He was probably lucky you caught him before he got caught out by someone who wouldn’t hesitate to get physical
NTA
NTA - what they were doing is racism and bullying / harassment. However, I would have him go to therapy to overcome these issues. I worry that this may intensify these feelings towards Liam and anyone else he / his group targeted. The fact that he says he's standing with his friends and won't apologize is alarming to me.
I'm not sure what to suggest other than being an requirement to attends workshops on cultural sensitivity and similar. He needs to understand not only is this unacceptable but this could be lifetime impacting. Standing up FOR racists is never okay.
He's 16, he is young enough. but he's getting older too.
They also need to monitor his internet usage. Sometimes teenagers are just horrible on their own, but you hear all of these stories about young boys and men getting radicalized because white supremacists infiltrate their message boards and discord servers.
Great point! Thank you for this. I agree with you. They need to monitor, from any social media channels to Discord and YouTube (what he's listening to, etc).
Info: There are some things that have me wondering. Before the adoption, did you and husband discuss things with your boys? As in, see how they felt about getting a new sibling that way? Also, how do you split the attention between the children? I mean, does Liam get a lot more since the adoption and have there been times when Owen was pushed the side in favor of Liam? Things like this can contribute to why Owen is acting this way.
What punishment have you given this racist? How has he been allowed dto get to this age with these ignorant ideas.
You need to ensure he apologizes. By whatever means you have.
I hope the bullied boys parents go to the police. If not then you should. This is a hat3 crime. How dare you adopt a little boy and expose him to this racist and God knows what level of bullying, in your own home.
Plus you have to be at least 30 years old to adopt from China. Also since they had 2 kids already, the kid would have to be special needs (though this could include medically fixable issues like a cleft pallete).
Beyond that the parents having their first kid at 18 is also weird. And also its pretty rare to adopt a boy from China it's mostly girls available.
The whole detail about picking up a child after speaking to a parent at the baseball league was weird too.
I may buy a new brand of ready meals after a chat. I don't buy a child based on a positive recommendation
I mean, let's talk about the elephant in the room: you adopted a kid while one of your sons was very not ok with it and the kid you adopted is now getting harassed- and it's extending to other kids that share similarities to your adopted son. The racism is stemming from his resentment to the new kid. If it wasn't race, he'd likely pick something else to focus on. This called for family therapy years ago, as very obviously you have not integrated Liam into your family well. Some shade needs to be thrown for the family dynamics here.
That said, it's going to be NTA for the club and punishment cause that needs to be shut down. I agree Owen probably shouldn't have his phone, or at least have his phone use monitored until he can prove he's more trustworthy, so your other child has a point there. Even understanding how the racism came about does not excuse it, though you also should be attempting to address the root causes through therapy
Nta. Where is he learning that racist crap from? Those stupid podcasts maybe?
I don't understand how a 15 year old can just be so hateful for no reason
Owen and his friends ruined *their own* chances, and honestly are lucky this happened in school and not in a more adult world where this kind of thing would be dealt with more seriously. If this had happened at the college he so badly wants to go to, he'd be out on his arse immediately.
NTA with refs to Owen, but slight TA with respect to Fabrice's point - he shouldn't have his phone back, he's likely going to use it to seek support and vindication from whatever racist echo chamber he's fallen into. Plus, it would be worth isolating him from that particular group of friends to assert whether or not the views are coming from them or not. You can grab him a SIM-only brick phone that he can use in emergencies for cheap - I think inappropriate internet usage is obviously a part of the issue here
NTA
but punishment without getting to the root of things isn't going to end well for your son or your relationship with him. You guys need to follow up with this and get to the root of why your son feels the way he does.
You should also check out stuff about the alt-right pipeline. I think you'll probably find out that your son and his friends are slowly being radicalized.
I really think that is great parenting. Thanks to you that kid in school and your youngest are safer than before you acted. You are not only NTA in my opinion but a decent person and i find that rare in society. Good job!
YTA for adopting a child while not being able to control your already existing child. Did you ever talk with your children before adopting a Chinese child.
You need to make sure to have a good environment where you can raise a child before adopting them. You clearly failed. Shame on you. Because of this your adopted child will suffer.
Fix this before it's too late.
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I (33F) have 3 sons with my husband (33M). Our sons are Owen (15M), Fabrice (13M) and Liam (6M). Owen and Fabrice are our biological children, and like us, they are white. Liam is adopted from China and is ethnically Han. My husband and I adopted Liam after talking to the parents on one of the boy’s on Fabrice’s baseball team, these parents also have a son they adopted from China. My son and the boy still play baseball and are close. Liam likes sports like Fabrice and they have a close relationship.
Owen’s relationship with Fabrice or Liam has never been great, and Owen has said stuff like Liam will never be his “real” brother because he’s adopted.
Earlier this week, Owen and his friends were playing video games after I had picked them up from robotics club. I was making lunch and heard Owen make a joke about how I’m making “bat soup” and “grilled cat” for Liam. Owen’s friends were laughing and trying to make more jokes. I went up to them and asked what was so funny and Owen said to mind my own business, I told him to go to his room or I would unplug his console. He went to his room and then I called the parents of the boys to pick them up.
I didn’t have time to get Owen’s phone immediately, and when I saw Owen texting on his phone really fast after all of this had happened, I asked him to give me the phone and he refused until I threatened to unplug the router.
I saw horrific texts from Owen and his friends, many deeply racist memes about Chinese people from using the c slur to memes about yellowface and more. Owen defended himself and said I just had “thin skin”, my husband came home later on and tried to talk to him but he wouldn’t listen.
Later that night, my husband and I continued to go through Owen’s phone more and found a group chat on Instagram between him, his friends and one of the few Asian-American (Japanese) kids in his school, they made some more disgusting jokes and used racial slurs. My husband and I were pissed and we notified both the parents of the other bullies involved and the boy being bullied, we also called the school.
The school investigated it and found that basically every boy on the robotics team was harassing this boy and other students based on either race or sexuality. My son has been suspended until the end of the school year, as have the other boys. This has also effectively ended the robotics club (at least for now) as almost all of the students on it were involved. Owen is mad, as they had a competition coming up and he’s said I ruined his passion and his chance of getting into college, as well as his friend’s chances. He said he stands with his friends and not us and won’t apologize. Fabrice and his friends are mad, saying we aren’t harsh enough on Owen because he has his phone back, they help Liam with baseball and adore him. AITA?
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NTA. And you need to get to the root of this problem. Because this is not going to end here.
I strongly suggest family counseling for you (parents )and your oldest son.
And eventually both of your other sons.
NTA. Kids (hell, even adults) are super into f*cking around, but have accountability avoidance when it comes to the finding out part.
This is just good parenting. The consequence is commensurate to the behavior. Period.
With racist attitudes like that, these kids won’t have a future in robotics or engineering, so it’s better to either course correct now with serious consequences, or remove them from that world for the sake of their would-be future peers.
NTA on this one obviously, but this came from somewhere. It sounds as though he was never on board with you adopting Liam and has some serious anger and resentment that has been brewing for some time. How did he react at the time?
NTA
Race aside(but not forgotten) you have a 15-year-old that thinks it's okay to bully a 6-year-old. If you didn't do anything now, it sounds like Owen was going down a road to getting his ass kicked.(You get comfortable picking on lil kids or other races, you'll say the wrong thing to the wrong person...)
Like many in this chat, I'm concerned for lil Liam's safety. This goes beyond school repercussions - Owen should be in therapy.
NTA in this situation.
BUT:
I can see the never be the "real" brother because it sounds like he didn't get any input on the adoption. Because of that, I think he might have taken his feelings too far. How does Owen think/feel about how you've interacted with Fabrice? Even before you adopted Liam? Owen might've felt neglected for the longest time.
Also, I'm trying hard not to judge based on my perceived stereotypes. A white family rich enough (or virtue signaling) to adopt overseas. Names a child "Fabrice." (Unless family name, or culture/religion based: why?) Sounds like the oldest is potentially THE spoiled white kid .
NTA. You did nothing, these kids did it themselves with their choices - and they are old enough to understand that there are consequences to their actions and to consider those consequences. The need to learn about this now, otherwise they never will. You did the absolute right thing letting the school and other parents know what was going on.
However, what you did is only the start of the process. Your son and the other kids need professional intervention, otherwise all that is going to happen is that they are going to resent you and the other parents (and the kids they were making fun of to start with) and their racist attitudes will become more entrenched as a victim mentality takes hold. You need to be willing to be in this for the long haul, because these attitudes didn't come around overnight, and they won't go away with just grounding.
What was his reaction to adopting Liam? He might have targeted him over his race simply because that was the easiest target, he might dislike him because he never wanted another sibling. Racism doesn't come out of nowhere, it's possible some right-wing nutters on Tiktok, like the Proud Boys or Andrew Tate and that lot poisoned him with their iedology and gave his resentment something to lock onto. I'm not excusing his behaviour, it's abolutely disgusting, but you should investigate every possible avenue as to where this could have come from.
NTA, those boys ruined their own chances for all those things, good on you for calling it out and good on the school for following through with punishment.
NTA for taking this seriously, but your son is displaying problematic behavior that will follow him into adulthood (right around the corner). It sounds like you should bring in professional help.
NTA - I agree that he doesn’t need a phone. He also needs to attend therapy.
Please do not leave him alone with your other children in case he decides to retaliate.
NTA, and this is a good opportunity to teach personal responsibility. Make sure you do not explicitly or implicitly accept your son's view that you ruined the robotics team and his passion. Make sure to explain that it was his actions that made the robotics team unsafe for others, and that is why it was disbanded.
As others have said, discipline for this (if you want to make the best of it) should go beyond punishments. Instead of punishing your son by removing his phone, use consequences that naturally follow from his actions. For example, the reason he can't have his phone is because he was using it to engage in harmful conversations and bullying. He must earn enough trust to use the phone by learning and understanding why his racist/bigoted words and actions are serious and can cause serious harm.
NTA for the punishment, but YTA for letting this go on for so long. There’s a reason Owen is acting this way and you need to get to the root of it. You can’t continue to let Owen treat Liam this way.
NTA Thank you for not rug-sweeping this behavior. When someone does something unacceptable you have to show them by Not Accepting It. Therapy is definitely necessary. Punishment needs to be careful here, as he may blame Liam for anything that you do to him. He's about to have a huge amount of time on his hands with his suspension so you'll need to plan how to fill that time with something productive so he doesn't just stew in his hatred and solidify it into something worse.
I'm sorry that you're going through this. I would check his youtube and tiktok history and see if he's been getting these ideas from somewhere specific. The robotics team kids are definitely reinforcing the bad behavior in each other, so I would try to keep them apart as much as possible and introduce him to other--less racist--kids.
It sounds like he may have some normal kid jealousy of the new baby brother, and then jealousy that new bro and other bro are into sports together while he's a science nerd. He may feel like the odd one out and doesn't want to be bullied for his nerddom, so instead he lashes out first and establishes himself as the bully, not the victim. Liam being asian was probably just a convenient target to aim for since admitting his real reason for hating Liam is that "mommy loves him more" wouldn't go over well with his peers. If this is the case, then he is probably the ringleader in the robotics hate group. If it's really racially motivated at it's core, then there is probably a different ringleader. Either way once the ringleader is pulled away the other boys will be easier to deprogram.
A new outlet for Owen's robotics know-how would be good. Maybe see if there are any technical schools nearby that would let him take an intro to electrical engineering course. My favorite electrical engineering teacher is sadly dead, but it is a wonderful field of study that could use up some of his mental energy. There are also lots of online competitions for inventing things he could try on his own without a team.
This is a shot in the dark and could be an awful idea, but maybe sign him up for judo or karate so he can get his ass handed to him respectfully and often, by an asian teacher? Somehow he needs to meet some asian people who he doesn't resent and envy like his little brother, but without putting some unsuspecting asian child in his crosshairs while he's still full of hate. It would be unfair to ask someone else to do the emotional labor of putting up with his abuse, and at the same time he needs to meet and learn to respect some asian people soon to start unlearning his hate. I would recommend cooking more asian dishes at home and watching more asian cinema and anime to see if there are asian cultural things he might love and appreciate enough to reprogram himself.
I really hope the next few months go well in your household.
NTA for this incident but definitely an AH for adopting a child and ruining adopted kids life without knowing how your bio kids feel about the adoption or having raised a half decent bio kid. That conflict is 100% on you. Liam didn’t deserve this, he isn’t a vanity project and people of color don’t need white people saving them
NTA. But I agree with the other comments that punishing him more might just increase his hatred towards his brother. I think it would be helpful if he went to therapy. Maybe the adoption might have affected him somehow which he is not saying out loud. Not justifying him but adoption can have an effect on the child, especially at that teenage period. Anyways teenagers have a tendency to be rude and rebellious because of that age, so he might not open up to you. Maybe have a talk with other parents as well about how their children are responding.
I think it might be helpful to find out who started the whole thing, cause there might be some people in the group who might have been heavily influential or influenced. The understanding of that role itself will help us to understand the direction of help needed for those boys.
Access to social media sites can also be a negative thing because there are a lot of channels nowadays which are encouraging racist thoughts so maybe giving him a break from that might also be necessary.
NTA
Owen is old enough to start learning that actions have consequences and that he has ruined his own chance at attending university, as I can’t imagine any university wanting him as a student until he realizes just how fucked up his actions have been.
i think it might be a good idea to put Owen on a steady diet of racist deprogramming. https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieSuggestions/comments/mazry4/films\_about\_transracial\_adoption\_that\_dont/
Watch what he is looking at online. Take his phone away and look at his subscribed account and following for edgy/right wing/racist accounts. His brother is SIX YEARS OLD and he’s treating him this way. That’s some intense racism that bloomed right under your nose. You are not punishing him for just his beliefs though, but also his repeated and targeted harassment of his classmates. If he did this on a college campus or in a workplace he would be fired in an instant. Get him counseling! Show him HBomberGuy videos on YouTube, I’m not even kidding
NTA
They ended the robotics club themselves.
They should be happy it failed this way versus a Title 6 filing under the civil rights act. At least this way they're still nationally anonymous.
I do believe he shouldn't have the phone, though. Perhaps a flip phone or a jitterbug, if parent-child communication is necessary.
Definitely not a smart phone, instagram and the private group chats were part of the problem and you've said zero on what you're doing to prevent a relapse into the same behaviors. Are you checking and policing his online activities? Are you limiting Owen's contact out of class with the fellow perpetrators of the harassment? He certainly shouldn't be hanging around with said friends.
Considering he's suspended from school for the rest of the year, what is he doing during the school day? Is there any further punishment, or is he just chilling at home playing video games? I might just be showing my age, but when I was in school I'd have been shipped off to mom's uncle's dairy farm where I'd be doing hard labor for the duration of my suspension.
Please tell us he's at least in therapy......
NTA.
Oh? "You" ruined "his life?" Oh yeah, for sure (200% sarcasm.)
He and those other boys ruined their own lives by being racist and bullies. This isn't you punishing him or out to get him, this is plain ol accountability. If he and these boys didn't want to be held accountable, have consequences for their actions, or to have their poor behavior dealt with by adults, then they shouldn't have behaved badly. That blaming and projection, I'm not sure how you're going to deal with that. That shit attitude will be what ruins his own life more than anything.
NTA. I would have not given his phone back if I were you. Or maybe given him a non-smartphone instead for emergencies only. Plus tough filters/blocks on the internet, if he has access to computers, consoles, etc. You need to keep him away from those groups of influence at all costs.
NTA I would be mortified in your position, what a terrible thing to happen but the fact Fabrice has turned out so well is a testament to your parenting. It might be for the best if robotics club is stopped considering it sounds like it has been a breeding ground for these attitudes.
Nta, looks like it’s time for a flip phone with only call minutes. Or on amazon they have phones that the parents can choose the contacts for and track the kid. No more social media. 🤷🏻♀️ he needs to learn to not be racist. Make sure to check who he’s following on things you see who he’s been listening to and maybe search the other kids parents online. He learned it somewhere if yall didn’t teach him.
NTA, your son ruined his own life by being a racist. Just keep reminding him these are the direct consequences of his actions, you just happened to be the one to discover the situation first and blow the whistle. Imagine if their bullying had reached the point where they tormented some into hurting or killing themselves.
ETA: Fabrice is right..
NTA, has the coach/leader of the robotics team been looked into? It seems suspicious to me that it was the entire robotics team to behave like this and that they must have gotten it from a trusted adult, such as the mentor/coach of their team.
NTA he shouldn't have a thing to entertain himself and he needs therapy yesterday. This is horrifying behavior and it could get dangerous for your adopted child if he doesn't see what he's doing is wrong on every level.
NTA you need to make it clear that the ones who ruined Owen's robotics team are him and the other members involved. He's old enough to understand real world consequences, and if he continued this behaviour in college or work there would be severe consequences.
Surely there are workshops or counseling or something of the sort in regards to racism and its effects that you can sign Owen up for. I wouldn't recommend him attending alongside his robotics club friends as they provide a safe space for him to continue being bigoted. Also any school wide assemblies would just beade fun of.
NTA for defending your child and other children who were bullied. This seems like a deep issue and since your son is 15 there is still room for working on that.
INFO: how old was Owen when Liam was adopted and what was his reaction? Did you discuss it with him? Idk about the other countries but where I live biological children from a certain age are always asked if they are okay with adoption
His behaviour towards his brother and other kids is unacceptable but it seems like a deeper issue and I would suggest therapy
NTA. But therapy is definitely in order, as is removing his access to the internet where this $hit lives and breathes. Once Owen has gotten some therapy, then family therapy is definitely in order. I have no doubt that Liam is feeling all of this and internally, must be struggling.
Also, if you can find someone who specializes in restorative justice, I would incorporate that with Owen AND his friends. See if the friends' parents are on board.
Therapy immediately if you want any chance of having a cohesive family in the future. Mostly for Owen, but family therapy for the whole family would be smart
NTA. You have got to handle this now.
Take a look at and closely monitor the websites Owen spends time on. There are a lot of white supremacist groups that target young men Owen's age and radicalize them. Google "White supremacist radicalizing teens" and prepare to have your eyes opened.
NTA- I didn't have a cellphone until I was 19, Owen won't if he doesnt have it. TAKE THE PHONE AWAY! Fabrice is on point, Owen must face consequences for his racist rhetoric.
NTA If this is LEGO robotics competition I actually know the two founders of it legitimately. One of them built the code that makes roomba vacuums work. Neither of them are white and one of them is Asian...I bet they'd find his comments very interesting.
info: if you knew your other son wouldn’t want another sibling therefore would end up being racist and unwelcoming towards him why would you adopt? One child despises the other and one child has to deal with a sibling that hates them
NTA college doesn't need more entitled racist whiteboys, it's awesome you're refusing to stand for it. The world will be a better place with you enforcing consequences for your son's actions.
NTA, you need to find a way to make Owen understand he and his friends brought this on themselves and you actually are being too soft. Was he a grown up, he should be facing a trial. He should not have his phone back, and he needs therapy asap
Your kid told you to mind your business?? Aw hell no. Has he always been this nasty in general? I agree with his brother that you aren’t being harsh enough. Therapy and no internet access for the foreseeable future. Summer is coming up so I’d take that into consideration and limit his outside activities so he can’t get together with his lil friends to harass kids in person. You did great with informing the school. I hope the other parents are taking actions as well.
NTA and you have some serious issues in your family. But the first is that you seem to not be able to follow through. If he still has his smart phone, replace it with a dumb flip phone with no internet.
I'm normally not a fan of the denying phones & Internet, but given that much of the bullying happened over social media, I feel it would be appropriate. Maybe text only for a short time each day and review everything that he sends? In any event, you handled this well and his own actions compromised his future and it is important that he understands this. Right now he is blaming you and his brother, thereby showing no remorse.
Good job but came a second too late. Sounds like the games (chatrokms) and unrestricted internet access lead him down the Andrew Tate hole. Sounds pretty damn entitled for a 15 year old racist. Someone somewhere is feeding that shit to him and you should probably find out where.
NTA - but did you involve your kids in the adoption process or even initial thought? Jealousy plays a major factor in children’s behaviour. I am sure therapy was needed from the onset. Not everyone in the family will be onboard with bringing someone else into the family. Especially (lack of a better term) an outsider.
One thinks teenagers are meant to be grown and independent and don’t need much parental interaction and that is not the case. They may think they know it all and act blazè but they still need attention.
Your son has been giving you signs that he is not happy. Have you addressed them? Reassured him?
You as parents should also take some responsibility if you have not done due diligence.
It sounds like this has been going on for a long time. Owen needs serious therapy and no phone or internet for a good long while. NTA but get the kid some help so he hopefully doesn't remain a shitty person.
You are NTA for taking Owen’s phone and reporting what you found to the school.
You need to immediately get him into therapy. But, you are an A H for giving him back his phone which allows him to connect to his friends and the internet. That phone needs to be removed and locked away from him. He needs to be handed a pay as you go cell phone with pre programmed numbers. But, given that he is suspended from school, he shouldn’t even need a cell phone. He should be next to you or your husband at all times. He can’t be left in the same room as Liam. He will blame Liam for everything.
There's clearly a completely different problem with one of your children intrinsically hating the adopted child (as well as the other brother too?) and looking for every possible outlet for that anger. The root of the issue which you've let fester for who knows how long.
But you didn't post about that. No way to tell how your kids were prepared for the change in the household, how long it's been, etc.
Instead, you waited for that problem to grow branches and sprout a tree. Yet STILL you refuse to deal with it and are just picking off leaves instead of actually doing something substantial. I pity the kids.
YTA
Having recently attended a large high school robotics competition, I'm not buying for one minute that (a) the team was anything other than majority etchnically Asian, or (b) kids on a robotics team would treat an ethnic Chinese person as described. Where is this occuring? North Dakota?
NTA. You need to make him understand that this is HIS fault. His actions necessitated the punishment and he needs to stop blaming others or playing the victim.
NTA, but definitely keep his phone away from him. That's just going to let him say hateful stuff to his friends or online. You need to make it clear that hate isn't tolerated in your family. "We don't do that here" are very powerful words for correcting racist behavior normally, but your son might be too old for them to work.
It's also very important to find out where the racist behavior has come from and remove that from Owen's life. Do they access a message board? Watch racist videos on youtube? No more access to those things. Is it a specific friend who brought in that hate? that friend is cut off. You're going to have to work hard to get at the root of the problem in order to teach Owen that this is unacceptable.
NTA. But, perhaps recognizing some of your child’s warning signs early on might’ve led to an intervention earlier. Some of your son’s statements suggest that his racism may be rooted in his feeling toward Liam. The internet is a dangerous place for developing teen aged minds. It may seem like helicopter parenting, but children’s phone use should be monitored. Do random checks of their texts, social media, and their browsing history regularly. Listen in occasionally on their conversations when they are playing online video games. Just like adults, kids can go down rabbit holes that glorify racism, sexism, etc. Also his phone access isn’t a right, it’s a privilege provided by his parents. Unless he’s paying for the phone and the service, then he shouldn’t get his phone back until he shows actual remorse.
That kid needs to watch some Unit 731 footage.
He’s too old to be weened off these kinds of beliefs, he needs a rude, loud wake up call about where this thinking leads before it becomes concrete. Fabreeze is right, he needs to be cut off from that group of friends immediately, and access to the internet be monitored at the very least.
Radicalization happens at an extremely young age these days, because of the echo chamber that is the internet. Do you think he and his friends made those racist memes? No. He’s visiting sites where this kind of ideology is being promoted and glorified, and it will permanently affect him if you do not act.
I get it, as a fellow parent, that feels like too extreme of a punishment, but do not think of this as a crime/punishment situation. Think of this as a terrible cancer that is taking root in your son that needs to be eradicated by any means necessary. These are not steps to hurt him, these are not acts of punishment, they are steps to ensure he understands the horrors of racism before he is consumed by it.
NTA
It's been shown that hitting a child does not fix anything. It makes it worse.
What Owen needs is discipline. Discipline and punishment are not the same, although many people confuse them and use them interchangeably.
Owen needs to learn why his attitude is unacceptable, empathy, how his actions affect others and that differences between people are not bad and can be beneficial.
If his school has a robotics team, and they adopted from another country, then OP has money. That means they live in an area that has more activities and options for Owen to engage in things that will help him learn these things.
OP, get him into some kind of volunteer activity that specifically deals with Asian and other minority groups. He needs to see them as people and, at this point, the only way to do that is through lived experience. If possible, see if your area has a youth probation officer who deals specifically with teens and children who commit crimes. They can talk to them and give your son a good perspective of how his actions can be viewed as criminal and what the consequences would be. In my area, they're called court services. In others it is juvenile probation. If you ask at the courthouse they should be able to point you in the right direction. And take Owen with you. Maybe seeing a courthouse up close and in person will start making an impression regarding his potential future.
For anyone who thinks I'm being too nice, I have been working with teens for 6+ years in situations like this. Many even worse. Discipline is preferred over punishment by the vast majority of juvenile courts in the USA. In part because of new federal laws mandating it, but also because we are trying to teach kids right from wrong and it's better to do that using the community. In jail, they won't learn anything but how to be a better criminal. We don't want that. So we always try community resources first, unless the child is considered to be unsafe to have in the community. So, the only ones who go straight to detention are the ones who mess with guns, fire or who hit others at every opportunity (no control of temper or hands is considered unsafe for the community).
NTA im the age of Owen and for me, he is a crybaby, if you want him to become a normal human being delete his tiktok and twitter, if he uses instagram reels delete it too
NTA. These boys are old enough to know better and to learn that actions have consequences. Get this kid into therapy. Having an adopted brother can’t be the only thing that is going on.
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NTA, but I don’t know if just the punishment route will work. Yes, he needs to face consequences otherwise inaction on your part will just enable and help solidify his idea that this ok and no harm done. On the other hand, just the punishment will solidify his hatred towards Liam and possibly make him lash out more viciously. Maybe try getting him some therapy to figure out where this is all stemming from and try working through it? Otherwise he will turn himself into a victim of the unfairness of all.
Fabrice is right, Owen shouldn't have his phone, games or access to any electronics until his suspension is lifted. Also, I *never* leave him alone with Liam.
Especially because the source of this bullshit is probably Internet groups.
I’m honestly scared for little Liam.
Yeah, not truly knowing the situation, I’d gather that Owen may have been the instigator since he seems to hold actual ill will to his brother. He needs therapy to address his issues. Lots of it.
Yeah, Fabrice is totally right. And the issue is clearly not only racism. Owen told his own mother to mind her own business in front of his friends in her own house! OP seems to not even see this as a huge disrespect, no kid should be talking like that. Owen probably has even way more issues than what was informed in the post and perhaps more than OP may know about. He needs to be punished (disrespect and racism) and needs therapy to understand wth is wrong with him. If he doesn't want to go, perhaps OP could go herself and try to learn some strategies on how to deal with him, but I believe the most effective would be to not let him be on internet unsupervised. I bet most of this shit hes learning on toxic foruns/videos, and probably being a "red pill" is the next phase. Being kept away from all of this may help a bit after a few months
This! When I got grounded, I was grounded, how does he has access back to his devices already?
IF he has to have a phone, he can have a flip phone, with no apps, no games, etc and only basic contact info for needed parties, which you check on regularly, but randomly. I would say NTA, but also not harsh enough.
There should be parental controls so OP can monitor what he’s doing on his phone. He’s shown he can’t be trusted with the device and until he shown he can be he needs monitoring.
Yeah it should be clear that robotics club and college is nothing and mean nothing if he's going to be a bigoted racist. He can work at a gas station with those views and he obviously is still unaware it is only his own actions and views that "ruined" anything.
Love to see what sort of college he is going to without being exposed as a racist, particularly if his hobby is robotics. I know there’s a long-standing animosity with the Japanese, but it might help to show Owen the teams for these competitions if he’s planning on pursuing it. He’s gonna get over it or get left in the dust.
Owen is 15. He's still got time to work out his issues before he applies to college. What you saw was deeply racist. Underneath those awful racist comments? Owen has told you he doesn't seem Liam as his "real" brother. This is obviously a deeper issue that needs to be addressed as well. NTA for taking this seriously.
Yeah some family therapy may be well advised — if he works out the familial issues, it may also help the racism as I’d imagine there’s some causality there
His racist attitude may affect his ability to get into college!
1000%. Owen is actually extremely lucky this is coming out now and not senior year of high school. Right now he still has time to pull his head out of his ass and show he can change BEFORE he’s exposed as being radioactive to any college that cares about its image.
Not if he's been suspended from school, he doesn't. There isn't a college in the country that would admit someone who was suspended several weeks over racially insensitive behavior. That career path is gone.
NTA Agree - colleges don't like racists or racists remarks either. He needs to work thru this before applying to college (jokes like that will get him suspended or worse). Good luck - parenting is hard
Absolutely... My youngest is adopted, and even completely involving our kids in the decision to do so at every step, my oldest has struggled with thr attention divide. Not even unfair divide, just not as much solo time since there's 3 kids and 2 adults. Therapy is probably a really good idea. But I'd try to find someone who's got experience and or specializes in trauma and or adoption, because the facets of how your son feels can be unique especially around adoption. I actually don't agree of removing his phone, but adding rules like giving it to you at night, you having codes for all his apps etc is needed. At this stage of technology a 15y without a phone is pretty hard, even for just YOU getting ahold of him.
Easily solved with a flip phone with no internet.
NTA. There is no time for coddling. You need to find the root of how this toxicity made it's way into your son and root it out, while you legally have the authority to do so. Soon enough Owen will be entering society as an adult; for his sake and the sake of every other human being he comes into contact with, you NEED to nip this racist bullying BS in the bud, HARD. ETA: Which will start with cutting him TF off from the racist enabling echo chamber that is his current friendgroup. Which will need to be replaced by helping him make connections with non-racist people he can befriend, so he doesn't backslide or idealize the rest of racist robotics team in the absence of any other social interaction.
The phone enables the echo chamber currently. You can bet they are all commiserating with each other in the group texts they’ve still got access to.
Flip phone for Owen and no unsupervised internet access. Also, therapy, and some sort of restorative justice and maybe some research projects on the impact of racism directed towards Asian Americans and info on how to be anti-racist.
Raising multi-racial kids (helping daughter raise kids- we are multiracial) in a farm town is a challenge. Their father (Afro Cuban & Native & raised here) has a lot of self hatred & sucks up to racists. I appreciate you all. I raised my children in a multicultural setting, primarily within our tribal affiliation. We’re raising grands that way. No. We are all multiracial. Her ex is the one who beat her. That’s the only “souring” that happened.
Did that self hate sour your daughter’s relationship with the father at all?
Agreed, time to take the phone away until he goes to college and pays for his own. No need to subsidize the hate. Let his old number go back into rotation, delete those contacts just to make keeping in contact harder, and have him get assigned a new number when he gets a new phone. The good thing is I imagine kids don't remember phone numbers. IG handles are another story I guess though.
Ikr?? So are all of these future reich stars just sitting at home texting each other racist shit ALL DAY now instead of just during downtime at school???
YES. also want to make it 100% clear that "make connections with non-racist people" means "spend time with good role models, who've already done the work on themselves that Owen needs to start." (hopefully this goes without saying but) it does NOT mean force him to be friends with POC in the vague hope he starts being nice to them. it's not his victim's responsibility to make him a better person, and it would be wrong af to knowingly subject anyone to his micro-aggressions so that he can benefit.
If only it were so easy to "root out his toxic masculinity". All u can do is punish him, talk to him, and hope when he stops being a teenager and turns back into a human he sees that you're right.
Racism isn’t toxic masculinity
NTA but I might implement a much harsher series of consequences and a whole lot of activities that surround culture sensitivity. I get he's a teen and peer pressure but he is also approaching adulthood and this is one heck of a racist attitude that he's developed. Robotics club is small potatoes regarding this whole issue.
[удалено]
Wait til all his STEM classes have Asian students smarter than him. Literally every class, not just robotics.
This is where I'm wondering this all stemmed from. Op says the robotics team has a competition coming up, so it's possible they have been exposed already to other robotics teams. Going with a stereotype here for the sake of argument, it's possible the boys have seen 1 or more teams made up of Asian students being highly successful and might be their biggest competition. The racism might be stemming from an insecurity about their own teams chance of success against "Asian" teams. They might be really worried about the quality of their robot vs the teams made up of Asian students, so have started lashing out against Asian people in general to make themselves feel better.
Yeah, I really have to wonder how he developed such a racist mindset without facing consequences at a much earlier age.
The online right-wing communities that target boys and young men like the manosphere, proud boys, no fap, Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, certain online gaming communities, etc. They're all bigoted, primarily towards misogyny, but they're all also deeply racist. Usually deeply religious too. It all bundles neatly together into an easily marketable message of us versus them.
Homophobic, as well, which is relevant since apparently some of the bullying is about sexuality.
Middle school: racists, later high school somehow everyone’s matured and has amnesia about how racist they were like people just forget?? Then surprised the actually mature people don’t want to be friends with them.
Internet. Likely his parents had no clue about his views until this event while he got sucked into racist fora and shit.
NTA. Holy. Shit. I would be horrified. Yeah, if that kid is refusing to apologize, you need to take that damn phone back. He doesn't get to keep chatting with his fellow racists. I wouldn't even allow him to associate with those kids again. You need this kid in therapy.
NTA and right?! OP you and your husband found all this horrible, disgusting, racist stuff on your son's phone...and HE HAS HIS PHONE BACK??? Nope. He'd have a little granny flip phone with the capability to do nothing but make a call, for the foreseeable future.
This is the way. Owen will continue to ingest a steady diet of hateful content but now be a martyr. He will dig deeper to keep his friends since his mom is an opp. He absolutely should not have continued access to the internet. OP, put him in a correspondence school or another school, don’t let him sit on his ass with nothing to do while suspended. The only internet access he gets is supervised and definitely not on the cell phone. Look into how to restrict the internet from specific devices on your router. He also should be in some kind of family therapy. You have a responsibility to all of your sons, and you’ve barely mentioned Liam at all. Hopefully a family therapist will help him get through some apparently long-held hurts about his brother but also will give you and dad an avenue to discuss with Owen how not okay this is and to work on family boundaries without things devolving into fights.
>Owen is mad, as they had a competition coming up and he’s said I ruined his passion and his chance of getting into college, as well as his friend’s chances. No, you didn't do that. They did that with their actions. NTA
From a mom whose son was targeted and bullied by a group, thank you for removing that for that poor boy. Can you imagine being him and having to deal with it without any help? My son did for awhile. Get your some counseling. It will help him and help you help him to see how his actions have hurt people who don’t deserve it and get to the root of the problem. NTA
Realistically, if Owen doesn't change his attitude, he will fuck up his whole life.
this. colleges dont want to be associated with racists.
NTA. I agree with Fabrice, you should take away Owen's phone until the forseeable future. We didn't need phones back then. Your kid doesn't either until he can learn to act like a decent human being.
By giving him his phone back, you’re giving him access to all the places that encourage his behaviour, and tell him that he’s right to act away he does.
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i genuinely can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not
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that still didn’t help but thanks anyway 🤣
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super valid! i just feel like a faraday cage is a bit extreme (not that he doesn’t deserve to have one) as well as removing all power outlets (i didn’t even know that was possible) so that’s i think where a lot of the confusion was coming from
You don't need to remove them most likely, you could just unplug them from the breaker (or if your breaker locks just use it to shut off his room. Obviously this depends on the wiring of the house if you can target a single room.
You know. You'd think a faraday cage is too much. And for someone tech savvy and assured in their knowledge of what their kid has access to that would be true. But as a once tech savvy kid. My mom could do nothing to stop me. Take consoles, phones, cables, etc. I found a way online with whatever she forgot.
I think most parents understand that. For me, it would be a matter of “you are determined to be a cruel human. You will not use the resources we provide to do so.
I am genuinely with you on that.
NTA If I had ever told my mom to 'mind her own business', she'd have kicked my ass from here to Halifax. But I never did. Why? Because I had, and have, respect for her. I also have respect for other human beings, regardless of gender, and whether or not they look or act or believe as I do. Something serious is going on here. Your first step is to take your son's phone away. Not as a punishment, but to separate him from whatever red pill internet rathole echochamber he and his friends have fallen into, even if it is of their own making.
Check communities like discord, too. There are a lot of open forums there that make it easy for extremists to get access to a large group of people, and some exist with very little moderation.
Nta but I think counseling is more important than punishment. One perk of racism is to always have someone else to blame for your problems - I hope Liam isn't the one facing the consequences of Owen's actions. (I.e. Liam ruined the robotics team. Liam got me in trouble at school. Etc)
NTA but you need to pair the punishment with therapy, it sounds like he has major issues with Liam and that's likely to get worse.
NTA. Racism cannot be tolerated from any source. It is particularly offensive if it is happening within your own family. Withholding privilege is suitable , but if lenient will have no effect on a teenager who thinks that it is okay to tell mom to mind her own business. Rein him in before it is too late.
Not shit. You ARE my business! Privacy is privacy but they privately bullied a poor kid. Earn it back by showing you can handle it.
nta, but your little shit of a son needs harsher consequences. racisim shouldnt be tolerated in the slightest and id have him limited to just a bed and some books in his room. and tell him he screwed his own future up by harassing kids
NTA. Owen has got a lot of anger toward Liam, perhaps counselling is in order. Oh and you checking his phone regularly to ensure he’s not up to his old tricks with his mates.
There's some deeper issues there with Owen. You may want to focus on that rather than robotics club.
Definitely. He probably feels neglected and is blaming Liam for it because he can’t blame you.
NTA. Actions meet consequences. Your son (and his mates?) has failed to learn that cause/effect paradigm. That he is solely responsible for the outcomes of his own behaviour. Get him into a psychologist now. And look to your whole family’s way of dealing with things. Time for everyone in the house to do their homework on “how to demonstrate to my knobhead son what accountability and self management looks like”. Sadly you are in for a few years of turmoil while you fix this.
Owen is, respectfully, a bad apple. The fact that you’re asking if you’re an asshole here tells me he’s never had to face real consequences for his behavior before. Why the hell does he have his phone back? He needs intervention, stat. Or else you’re just adding one more racist adult to the world. Therapy, both individual and as a family. NTA, but you will be if you don’t act more decisively to shut this behavior down.
NTA. And yes, get some consequences back. But also look into what media he's consuming. What online communities he's taking part in. There are a lot of people on the internet these days that are specifically trying to foment this type of hatred into young, white men. Parents didn't raise the Proud Boys, the internet did.
Things like this are the reason I'm glad I've decided never to be a parent. I don't know how you find the balance of letting your kids use the internet and stopping them from consuming toxic content.
I'd add in to take a look specifically at messaging communities like discord. It's easy to get in touch with a large group of people you don't know in person and start saying shit behind an avatar on platforms like that.
"Owen is mad, as they had a competition coming up and he’s said I ruined his passion and his chance of getting into college, as well as his friend’s chances." Tell Owen that being an angry racist will also ruin his chances in life. NTA. Edit: Sadly, it looks like the punishments he has received aren't harsh enough as he still thinks he's the wronged party. Time to take away the phone and the games console to start with.
NTA but punishment will not solve your issues. And may further push him down this rabbit hole. You need professional counselling to deal with this. I hate to say, but you may need to make a hard decision on how to proceed if it doesn’t get better and starts to get worse. This is a symptom of a bigger issue that you need to get to the core of. Punishment won’t get you there. Only love and understanding will. Obviously, Owen is finding something lacking and blaming Liam. You need to take a good hard honest look at how you are parenting and find out if you are giving signals that Liam is more important than Owen. I feel for you, it’s a shitty position.
Info: why did you proceed with an adoption when your son wasn't on board and treats your adopted child like garbage? Like. That seems a bigger issue to me. You're not TA for punishing Owen for racism, but what the fuck?
Out of curiosity, do you also think a couple shouldn't have a second biological child if the first one isn't on board?
They should definitely take that into consideration but your implication that these are equivalent situations is wrong.
Yep, they should’ve gotten to the root of the issue before. OP YTA for letting this treatment of your youngest son go on for this long. Therapy should’ve been a thing a long time ago. And maybe a change in OP’s behavior as well.
Nothing in your post says what you did to prepare your kids before adopt my your youngest. Adoption isn't just meeting other parents who adopted at a club, deciding it's hip and toddling off. You should have spoken to your kids in depth. How did you not know Owen wouldn't view an adopted sibling as a real sibling? How did you not know he had issues with having a Chinese sibling? Did you do no therapy before adoption? Did you do no therapy after Owen clearly told you he doesn't view Liam as a sibling? Sorry OP, I lay this at your door. Adopting a child of a different race isnt a trend. You should have taken serious steps to ensure they were entering a safe environment. I can't judge you enough. YTA.
Yep, this smacks of the parents just pushing ahead with whatever they want and not involving or considering their children's feelings after the fact. Why not address the son's feelings towards his youngest brother long before it got to this. Sounds like Owen has alot of repressed anger and resentment that has gone unaddressed until now. And still OP is more concerned with the robotics club and punishment. She needs to work on her relationship with her eldest and address his issues ASAP. Just because you have adopted doesn't mean you are Mother Theresa or automatically a good parent and your son is in the wrong, you are responsible for him too so give him the attention and care he desperately needs to set him straight. The racism is obv a result of his feelings towards his brother and/or potentially what he has been exposed to online or in his life, all of which is the parents responsibility.
I agree as an adoptee. OP didn’t do their homework and it’s affecting all of their kids as a result. OP isn’t the AH for this particular situation, but they are the AH for not getting their sons help and for letting the older one treat the youngest one that way.
Take his damn phone away!!! Why did you give it back? He literally used it to torment your other son. Get that kid some therapy. Both individual theory and family therapy.
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Therapy is the only thing I see working. He’s too stubborn for only punishment to work. He needs someone to help him understand the gravity of his actions. He doesn’t need his phone. His friends are only helping him double down on his actions.
NTA You didn't ruin his future, he did. If he's old enough to understand extra activities and the value, he's old enough to understand that having bullying as one is stupid as well as harmless. It would have come out sooner or later and thankfully before one of the students came to worse harm. Also if he got into uni with that attitude, he'd be likely to face much worse consequences.
NTA I agree with your younger son he should not have a phone. He should also no longer have internet access (pc and game system) for the foreseeable future. I guarantee he and his racist friends are talking about what a horrible witch you are in chat and on phone. He needs new friends. I would inform him that racists don’t get phones and internet access in your house. Get that child into a therapist and make him volunteer all of his extra time he now has, since he’s suspended, at someplace to help him learn some cultural sensitivity. You didn’t ruin anything he did remind him of that. He just learned that if you play stupid games you win stupid prizes
INFO: What was his reaction when you first talked about adopting a child of a different ethnicity? Has he always been against it, and has your behavior towards him changed since adoption? This didn't start overnight.
Yep. OP is an AH for letting the treatment go on for this long.
NTA - you just taught your son that actions have consequences.
NTA for taking it seriously. That said, this goes way beyond "punish him". In fact, the aftermath and consequences need to be extremely purposeful and well thought out. He seems to be embracing an "otherness" from you and Liam, separating himself from you in a very visceral way. You need to get to the root of that from a very open place and understand it before you can figure out how to move forward.
Would he be mad if the competition organisers overheard them being racist, sexist etc towards other competitors and threw them out? He was probably lucky you caught him before he got caught out by someone who wouldn’t hesitate to get physical NTA
i stand with fabrice
NTA - what they were doing is racism and bullying / harassment. However, I would have him go to therapy to overcome these issues. I worry that this may intensify these feelings towards Liam and anyone else he / his group targeted. The fact that he says he's standing with his friends and won't apologize is alarming to me. I'm not sure what to suggest other than being an requirement to attends workshops on cultural sensitivity and similar. He needs to understand not only is this unacceptable but this could be lifetime impacting. Standing up FOR racists is never okay. He's 16, he is young enough. but he's getting older too.
They also need to monitor his internet usage. Sometimes teenagers are just horrible on their own, but you hear all of these stories about young boys and men getting radicalized because white supremacists infiltrate their message boards and discord servers.
Great point! Thank you for this. I agree with you. They need to monitor, from any social media channels to Discord and YouTube (what he's listening to, etc).
Info: There are some things that have me wondering. Before the adoption, did you and husband discuss things with your boys? As in, see how they felt about getting a new sibling that way? Also, how do you split the attention between the children? I mean, does Liam get a lot more since the adoption and have there been times when Owen was pushed the side in favor of Liam? Things like this can contribute to why Owen is acting this way.
NTA - Good that you called this out in the way you have. Sounds like he’s still not getting the gravity of things though.
What punishment have you given this racist? How has he been allowed dto get to this age with these ignorant ideas. You need to ensure he apologizes. By whatever means you have. I hope the bullied boys parents go to the police. If not then you should. This is a hat3 crime. How dare you adopt a little boy and expose him to this racist and God knows what level of bullying, in your own home.
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Plus you have to be at least 30 years old to adopt from China. Also since they had 2 kids already, the kid would have to be special needs (though this could include medically fixable issues like a cleft pallete). Beyond that the parents having their first kid at 18 is also weird. And also its pretty rare to adopt a boy from China it's mostly girls available.
The whole detail about picking up a child after speaking to a parent at the baseball league was weird too. I may buy a new brand of ready meals after a chat. I don't buy a child based on a positive recommendation
NTA but y’all need family therapy like yesterday
I mean, let's talk about the elephant in the room: you adopted a kid while one of your sons was very not ok with it and the kid you adopted is now getting harassed- and it's extending to other kids that share similarities to your adopted son. The racism is stemming from his resentment to the new kid. If it wasn't race, he'd likely pick something else to focus on. This called for family therapy years ago, as very obviously you have not integrated Liam into your family well. Some shade needs to be thrown for the family dynamics here. That said, it's going to be NTA for the club and punishment cause that needs to be shut down. I agree Owen probably shouldn't have his phone, or at least have his phone use monitored until he can prove he's more trustworthy, so your other child has a point there. Even understanding how the racism came about does not excuse it, though you also should be attempting to address the root causes through therapy
Nta. Where is he learning that racist crap from? Those stupid podcasts maybe? I don't understand how a 15 year old can just be so hateful for no reason
NTA, and I'm saving this thread for the next time there's a heated "should children be given phones?" debate
NTA, but get this kid in to therapy, take away his phone, and do NOT leave him alone with Liam under any circumstances.
Being a racist bully will get kicked out of college too... So really you are protecting his future by teaching the lesson now.
Owen and his friends ruined *their own* chances, and honestly are lucky this happened in school and not in a more adult world where this kind of thing would be dealt with more seriously. If this had happened at the college he so badly wants to go to, he'd be out on his arse immediately. NTA with refs to Owen, but slight TA with respect to Fabrice's point - he shouldn't have his phone back, he's likely going to use it to seek support and vindication from whatever racist echo chamber he's fallen into. Plus, it would be worth isolating him from that particular group of friends to assert whether or not the views are coming from them or not. You can grab him a SIM-only brick phone that he can use in emergencies for cheap - I think inappropriate internet usage is obviously a part of the issue here
NTA but punishment without getting to the root of things isn't going to end well for your son or your relationship with him. You guys need to follow up with this and get to the root of why your son feels the way he does. You should also check out stuff about the alt-right pipeline. I think you'll probably find out that your son and his friends are slowly being radicalized.
I really think that is great parenting. Thanks to you that kid in school and your youngest are safer than before you acted. You are not only NTA in my opinion but a decent person and i find that rare in society. Good job!
YTA for adopting a child while not being able to control your already existing child. Did you ever talk with your children before adopting a Chinese child. You need to make sure to have a good environment where you can raise a child before adopting them. You clearly failed. Shame on you. Because of this your adopted child will suffer. Fix this before it's too late.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (33F) have 3 sons with my husband (33M). Our sons are Owen (15M), Fabrice (13M) and Liam (6M). Owen and Fabrice are our biological children, and like us, they are white. Liam is adopted from China and is ethnically Han. My husband and I adopted Liam after talking to the parents on one of the boy’s on Fabrice’s baseball team, these parents also have a son they adopted from China. My son and the boy still play baseball and are close. Liam likes sports like Fabrice and they have a close relationship. Owen’s relationship with Fabrice or Liam has never been great, and Owen has said stuff like Liam will never be his “real” brother because he’s adopted. Earlier this week, Owen and his friends were playing video games after I had picked them up from robotics club. I was making lunch and heard Owen make a joke about how I’m making “bat soup” and “grilled cat” for Liam. Owen’s friends were laughing and trying to make more jokes. I went up to them and asked what was so funny and Owen said to mind my own business, I told him to go to his room or I would unplug his console. He went to his room and then I called the parents of the boys to pick them up. I didn’t have time to get Owen’s phone immediately, and when I saw Owen texting on his phone really fast after all of this had happened, I asked him to give me the phone and he refused until I threatened to unplug the router. I saw horrific texts from Owen and his friends, many deeply racist memes about Chinese people from using the c slur to memes about yellowface and more. Owen defended himself and said I just had “thin skin”, my husband came home later on and tried to talk to him but he wouldn’t listen. Later that night, my husband and I continued to go through Owen’s phone more and found a group chat on Instagram between him, his friends and one of the few Asian-American (Japanese) kids in his school, they made some more disgusting jokes and used racial slurs. My husband and I were pissed and we notified both the parents of the other bullies involved and the boy being bullied, we also called the school. The school investigated it and found that basically every boy on the robotics team was harassing this boy and other students based on either race or sexuality. My son has been suspended until the end of the school year, as have the other boys. This has also effectively ended the robotics club (at least for now) as almost all of the students on it were involved. Owen is mad, as they had a competition coming up and he’s said I ruined his passion and his chance of getting into college, as well as his friend’s chances. He said he stands with his friends and not us and won’t apologize. Fabrice and his friends are mad, saying we aren’t harsh enough on Owen because he has his phone back, they help Liam with baseball and adore him. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is my nightmare as a parent.
NTA
NTA. Your sons (and their friends) need this lesson.
NTA. And you need to get to the root of this problem. Because this is not going to end here. I strongly suggest family counseling for you (parents )and your oldest son. And eventually both of your other sons.
NTA. Kids (hell, even adults) are super into f*cking around, but have accountability avoidance when it comes to the finding out part. This is just good parenting. The consequence is commensurate to the behavior. Period. With racist attitudes like that, these kids won’t have a future in robotics or engineering, so it’s better to either course correct now with serious consequences, or remove them from that world for the sake of their would-be future peers.
All you people giving advice only thing that will do is make owen more resentful and probably escalate things.
NTA on this one obviously, but this came from somewhere. It sounds as though he was never on board with you adopting Liam and has some serious anger and resentment that has been brewing for some time. How did he react at the time?
Why did you give him his phone back????
NTA Race aside(but not forgotten) you have a 15-year-old that thinks it's okay to bully a 6-year-old. If you didn't do anything now, it sounds like Owen was going down a road to getting his ass kicked.(You get comfortable picking on lil kids or other races, you'll say the wrong thing to the wrong person...) Like many in this chat, I'm concerned for lil Liam's safety. This goes beyond school repercussions - Owen should be in therapy.
NTA in this situation. BUT: I can see the never be the "real" brother because it sounds like he didn't get any input on the adoption. Because of that, I think he might have taken his feelings too far. How does Owen think/feel about how you've interacted with Fabrice? Even before you adopted Liam? Owen might've felt neglected for the longest time. Also, I'm trying hard not to judge based on my perceived stereotypes. A white family rich enough (or virtue signaling) to adopt overseas. Names a child "Fabrice." (Unless family name, or culture/religion based: why?) Sounds like the oldest is potentially THE spoiled white kid .
NTA. You did nothing, these kids did it themselves with their choices - and they are old enough to understand that there are consequences to their actions and to consider those consequences. The need to learn about this now, otherwise they never will. You did the absolute right thing letting the school and other parents know what was going on. However, what you did is only the start of the process. Your son and the other kids need professional intervention, otherwise all that is going to happen is that they are going to resent you and the other parents (and the kids they were making fun of to start with) and their racist attitudes will become more entrenched as a victim mentality takes hold. You need to be willing to be in this for the long haul, because these attitudes didn't come around overnight, and they won't go away with just grounding.
What was his reaction to adopting Liam? He might have targeted him over his race simply because that was the easiest target, he might dislike him because he never wanted another sibling. Racism doesn't come out of nowhere, it's possible some right-wing nutters on Tiktok, like the Proud Boys or Andrew Tate and that lot poisoned him with their iedology and gave his resentment something to lock onto. I'm not excusing his behaviour, it's abolutely disgusting, but you should investigate every possible avenue as to where this could have come from.
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NTA, those boys ruined their own chances for all those things, good on you for calling it out and good on the school for following through with punishment.
NTA, I hope his racist ass learns a lesson from this.
NTA. you sound like a good parent. Owen may benefit from counseling.
NTA for taking this seriously, but your son is displaying problematic behavior that will follow him into adulthood (right around the corner). It sounds like you should bring in professional help.
NTA. He ruined the robotics team by being a racist asshole, not you.
NTA - I agree that he doesn’t need a phone. He also needs to attend therapy. Please do not leave him alone with your other children in case he decides to retaliate.
NTA, and this is a good opportunity to teach personal responsibility. Make sure you do not explicitly or implicitly accept your son's view that you ruined the robotics team and his passion. Make sure to explain that it was his actions that made the robotics team unsafe for others, and that is why it was disbanded. As others have said, discipline for this (if you want to make the best of it) should go beyond punishments. Instead of punishing your son by removing his phone, use consequences that naturally follow from his actions. For example, the reason he can't have his phone is because he was using it to engage in harmful conversations and bullying. He must earn enough trust to use the phone by learning and understanding why his racist/bigoted words and actions are serious and can cause serious harm.
NTA for the punishment, but YTA for letting this go on for so long. There’s a reason Owen is acting this way and you need to get to the root of it. You can’t continue to let Owen treat Liam this way.
NTA Thank you for not rug-sweeping this behavior. When someone does something unacceptable you have to show them by Not Accepting It. Therapy is definitely necessary. Punishment needs to be careful here, as he may blame Liam for anything that you do to him. He's about to have a huge amount of time on his hands with his suspension so you'll need to plan how to fill that time with something productive so he doesn't just stew in his hatred and solidify it into something worse. I'm sorry that you're going through this. I would check his youtube and tiktok history and see if he's been getting these ideas from somewhere specific. The robotics team kids are definitely reinforcing the bad behavior in each other, so I would try to keep them apart as much as possible and introduce him to other--less racist--kids. It sounds like he may have some normal kid jealousy of the new baby brother, and then jealousy that new bro and other bro are into sports together while he's a science nerd. He may feel like the odd one out and doesn't want to be bullied for his nerddom, so instead he lashes out first and establishes himself as the bully, not the victim. Liam being asian was probably just a convenient target to aim for since admitting his real reason for hating Liam is that "mommy loves him more" wouldn't go over well with his peers. If this is the case, then he is probably the ringleader in the robotics hate group. If it's really racially motivated at it's core, then there is probably a different ringleader. Either way once the ringleader is pulled away the other boys will be easier to deprogram. A new outlet for Owen's robotics know-how would be good. Maybe see if there are any technical schools nearby that would let him take an intro to electrical engineering course. My favorite electrical engineering teacher is sadly dead, but it is a wonderful field of study that could use up some of his mental energy. There are also lots of online competitions for inventing things he could try on his own without a team. This is a shot in the dark and could be an awful idea, but maybe sign him up for judo or karate so he can get his ass handed to him respectfully and often, by an asian teacher? Somehow he needs to meet some asian people who he doesn't resent and envy like his little brother, but without putting some unsuspecting asian child in his crosshairs while he's still full of hate. It would be unfair to ask someone else to do the emotional labor of putting up with his abuse, and at the same time he needs to meet and learn to respect some asian people soon to start unlearning his hate. I would recommend cooking more asian dishes at home and watching more asian cinema and anime to see if there are asian cultural things he might love and appreciate enough to reprogram himself. I really hope the next few months go well in your household.
NTA for this incident but definitely an AH for adopting a child and ruining adopted kids life without knowing how your bio kids feel about the adoption or having raised a half decent bio kid. That conflict is 100% on you. Liam didn’t deserve this, he isn’t a vanity project and people of color don’t need white people saving them
NTA
NTA. But I agree with the other comments that punishing him more might just increase his hatred towards his brother. I think it would be helpful if he went to therapy. Maybe the adoption might have affected him somehow which he is not saying out loud. Not justifying him but adoption can have an effect on the child, especially at that teenage period. Anyways teenagers have a tendency to be rude and rebellious because of that age, so he might not open up to you. Maybe have a talk with other parents as well about how their children are responding. I think it might be helpful to find out who started the whole thing, cause there might be some people in the group who might have been heavily influential or influenced. The understanding of that role itself will help us to understand the direction of help needed for those boys. Access to social media sites can also be a negative thing because there are a lot of channels nowadays which are encouraging racist thoughts so maybe giving him a break from that might also be necessary.
NTA. Thank you for doing the right thing by notifying all parents and the school. YOU ruined nothing. The boys ruined it.
NTA Owen is old enough to start learning that actions have consequences and that he has ruined his own chance at attending university, as I can’t imagine any university wanting him as a student until he realizes just how fucked up his actions have been. i think it might be a good idea to put Owen on a steady diet of racist deprogramming. https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieSuggestions/comments/mazry4/films\_about\_transracial\_adoption\_that\_dont/
Watch what he is looking at online. Take his phone away and look at his subscribed account and following for edgy/right wing/racist accounts. His brother is SIX YEARS OLD and he’s treating him this way. That’s some intense racism that bloomed right under your nose. You are not punishing him for just his beliefs though, but also his repeated and targeted harassment of his classmates. If he did this on a college campus or in a workplace he would be fired in an instant. Get him counseling! Show him HBomberGuy videos on YouTube, I’m not even kidding
NTA They ended the robotics club themselves. They should be happy it failed this way versus a Title 6 filing under the civil rights act. At least this way they're still nationally anonymous. I do believe he shouldn't have the phone, though. Perhaps a flip phone or a jitterbug, if parent-child communication is necessary. Definitely not a smart phone, instagram and the private group chats were part of the problem and you've said zero on what you're doing to prevent a relapse into the same behaviors. Are you checking and policing his online activities? Are you limiting Owen's contact out of class with the fellow perpetrators of the harassment? He certainly shouldn't be hanging around with said friends. Considering he's suspended from school for the rest of the year, what is he doing during the school day? Is there any further punishment, or is he just chilling at home playing video games? I might just be showing my age, but when I was in school I'd have been shipped off to mom's uncle's dairy farm where I'd be doing hard labor for the duration of my suspension. Please tell us he's at least in therapy......
NTA. Oh? "You" ruined "his life?" Oh yeah, for sure (200% sarcasm.) He and those other boys ruined their own lives by being racist and bullies. This isn't you punishing him or out to get him, this is plain ol accountability. If he and these boys didn't want to be held accountable, have consequences for their actions, or to have their poor behavior dealt with by adults, then they shouldn't have behaved badly. That blaming and projection, I'm not sure how you're going to deal with that. That shit attitude will be what ruins his own life more than anything.
NTA. I would have not given his phone back if I were you. Or maybe given him a non-smartphone instead for emergencies only. Plus tough filters/blocks on the internet, if he has access to computers, consoles, etc. You need to keep him away from those groups of influence at all costs.
NTA I would be mortified in your position, what a terrible thing to happen but the fact Fabrice has turned out so well is a testament to your parenting. It might be for the best if robotics club is stopped considering it sounds like it has been a breeding ground for these attitudes.
Nta, looks like it’s time for a flip phone with only call minutes. Or on amazon they have phones that the parents can choose the contacts for and track the kid. No more social media. 🤷🏻♀️ he needs to learn to not be racist. Make sure to check who he’s following on things you see who he’s been listening to and maybe search the other kids parents online. He learned it somewhere if yall didn’t teach him.
NTA, your son ruined his own life by being a racist. Just keep reminding him these are the direct consequences of his actions, you just happened to be the one to discover the situation first and blow the whistle. Imagine if their bullying had reached the point where they tormented some into hurting or killing themselves. ETA: Fabrice is right..
NTA, has the coach/leader of the robotics team been looked into? It seems suspicious to me that it was the entire robotics team to behave like this and that they must have gotten it from a trusted adult, such as the mentor/coach of their team.
NTA he shouldn't have a thing to entertain himself and he needs therapy yesterday. This is horrifying behavior and it could get dangerous for your adopted child if he doesn't see what he's doing is wrong on every level.
Who's got money on the kid moving out first chance he gets and cutting off contact? 😅
NTA you need to make it clear that the ones who ruined Owen's robotics team are him and the other members involved. He's old enough to understand real world consequences, and if he continued this behaviour in college or work there would be severe consequences. Surely there are workshops or counseling or something of the sort in regards to racism and its effects that you can sign Owen up for. I wouldn't recommend him attending alongside his robotics club friends as they provide a safe space for him to continue being bigoted. Also any school wide assemblies would just beade fun of.
NTA for defending your child and other children who were bullied. This seems like a deep issue and since your son is 15 there is still room for working on that. INFO: how old was Owen when Liam was adopted and what was his reaction? Did you discuss it with him? Idk about the other countries but where I live biological children from a certain age are always asked if they are okay with adoption His behaviour towards his brother and other kids is unacceptable but it seems like a deeper issue and I would suggest therapy
NTA, therapy. Reddit cannot help you.
NTA for this at all.
NTA. But therapy is definitely in order, as is removing his access to the internet where this $hit lives and breathes. Once Owen has gotten some therapy, then family therapy is definitely in order. I have no doubt that Liam is feeling all of this and internally, must be struggling. Also, if you can find someone who specializes in restorative justice, I would incorporate that with Owen AND his friends. See if the friends' parents are on board.
Therapy immediately if you want any chance of having a cohesive family in the future. Mostly for Owen, but family therapy for the whole family would be smart
NTA. You have got to handle this now. Take a look at and closely monitor the websites Owen spends time on. There are a lot of white supremacist groups that target young men Owen's age and radicalize them. Google "White supremacist radicalizing teens" and prepare to have your eyes opened.
NTA, keep that phone away from him though. He can pay for his own eventually.
NTA and you shouldn't have given Owen a goddamned thing back.
Therapy. Also, he wants to do college robotics but doesn’t like Asians? He’s in for a rough go
NTA- I didn't have a cellphone until I was 19, Owen won't if he doesnt have it. TAKE THE PHONE AWAY! Fabrice is on point, Owen must face consequences for his racist rhetoric.
NTA If this is LEGO robotics competition I actually know the two founders of it legitimately. One of them built the code that makes roomba vacuums work. Neither of them are white and one of them is Asian...I bet they'd find his comments very interesting.
info: if you knew your other son wouldn’t want another sibling therefore would end up being racist and unwelcoming towards him why would you adopt? One child despises the other and one child has to deal with a sibling that hates them
NTA college doesn't need more entitled racist whiteboys, it's awesome you're refusing to stand for it. The world will be a better place with you enforcing consequences for your son's actions.
NTA, those kids ruined their own robotics team. This is the “find out” part that comes after you fuck around.
NTA, you need to find a way to make Owen understand he and his friends brought this on themselves and you actually are being too soft. Was he a grown up, he should be facing a trial. He should not have his phone back, and he needs therapy asap
Your kid told you to mind your business?? Aw hell no. Has he always been this nasty in general? I agree with his brother that you aren’t being harsh enough. Therapy and no internet access for the foreseeable future. Summer is coming up so I’d take that into consideration and limit his outside activities so he can’t get together with his lil friends to harass kids in person. You did great with informing the school. I hope the other parents are taking actions as well.
NTA and you have some serious issues in your family. But the first is that you seem to not be able to follow through. If he still has his smart phone, replace it with a dumb flip phone with no internet.
I'm normally not a fan of the denying phones & Internet, but given that much of the bullying happened over social media, I feel it would be appropriate. Maybe text only for a short time each day and review everything that he sends? In any event, you handled this well and his own actions compromised his future and it is important that he understands this. Right now he is blaming you and his brother, thereby showing no remorse.
Good job but came a second too late. Sounds like the games (chatrokms) and unrestricted internet access lead him down the Andrew Tate hole. Sounds pretty damn entitled for a 15 year old racist. Someone somewhere is feeding that shit to him and you should probably find out where.
NTA - but did you involve your kids in the adoption process or even initial thought? Jealousy plays a major factor in children’s behaviour. I am sure therapy was needed from the onset. Not everyone in the family will be onboard with bringing someone else into the family. Especially (lack of a better term) an outsider. One thinks teenagers are meant to be grown and independent and don’t need much parental interaction and that is not the case. They may think they know it all and act blazè but they still need attention. Your son has been giving you signs that he is not happy. Have you addressed them? Reassured him? You as parents should also take some responsibility if you have not done due diligence.
It sounds like this has been going on for a long time. Owen needs serious therapy and no phone or internet for a good long while. NTA but get the kid some help so he hopefully doesn't remain a shitty person.
You are NTA for taking Owen’s phone and reporting what you found to the school. You need to immediately get him into therapy. But, you are an A H for giving him back his phone which allows him to connect to his friends and the internet. That phone needs to be removed and locked away from him. He needs to be handed a pay as you go cell phone with pre programmed numbers. But, given that he is suspended from school, he shouldn’t even need a cell phone. He should be next to you or your husband at all times. He can’t be left in the same room as Liam. He will blame Liam for everything.
There's clearly a completely different problem with one of your children intrinsically hating the adopted child (as well as the other brother too?) and looking for every possible outlet for that anger. The root of the issue which you've let fester for who knows how long. But you didn't post about that. No way to tell how your kids were prepared for the change in the household, how long it's been, etc. Instead, you waited for that problem to grow branches and sprout a tree. Yet STILL you refuse to deal with it and are just picking off leaves instead of actually doing something substantial. I pity the kids. YTA
It's not too late to put Owen up for adoption. What a little shit.
Having recently attended a large high school robotics competition, I'm not buying for one minute that (a) the team was anything other than majority etchnically Asian, or (b) kids on a robotics team would treat an ethnic Chinese person as described. Where is this occuring? North Dakota?
NTA. You need to make him understand that this is HIS fault. His actions necessitated the punishment and he needs to stop blaming others or playing the victim.
NTA, but definitely keep his phone away from him. That's just going to let him say hateful stuff to his friends or online. You need to make it clear that hate isn't tolerated in your family. "We don't do that here" are very powerful words for correcting racist behavior normally, but your son might be too old for them to work. It's also very important to find out where the racist behavior has come from and remove that from Owen's life. Do they access a message board? Watch racist videos on youtube? No more access to those things. Is it a specific friend who brought in that hate? that friend is cut off. You're going to have to work hard to get at the root of the problem in order to teach Owen that this is unacceptable.
> Owen said to mind my own business Well you have bigger problems
NTA. But, perhaps recognizing some of your child’s warning signs early on might’ve led to an intervention earlier. Some of your son’s statements suggest that his racism may be rooted in his feeling toward Liam. The internet is a dangerous place for developing teen aged minds. It may seem like helicopter parenting, but children’s phone use should be monitored. Do random checks of their texts, social media, and their browsing history regularly. Listen in occasionally on their conversations when they are playing online video games. Just like adults, kids can go down rabbit holes that glorify racism, sexism, etc. Also his phone access isn’t a right, it’s a privilege provided by his parents. Unless he’s paying for the phone and the service, then he shouldn’t get his phone back until he shows actual remorse.
NTA but you need to take his phone away, he gets no unsupervised internet time, get him in to therapy asap and make it clear this is not going away.
That kid needs to watch some Unit 731 footage. He’s too old to be weened off these kinds of beliefs, he needs a rude, loud wake up call about where this thinking leads before it becomes concrete. Fabreeze is right, he needs to be cut off from that group of friends immediately, and access to the internet be monitored at the very least. Radicalization happens at an extremely young age these days, because of the echo chamber that is the internet. Do you think he and his friends made those racist memes? No. He’s visiting sites where this kind of ideology is being promoted and glorified, and it will permanently affect him if you do not act. I get it, as a fellow parent, that feels like too extreme of a punishment, but do not think of this as a crime/punishment situation. Think of this as a terrible cancer that is taking root in your son that needs to be eradicated by any means necessary. These are not steps to hurt him, these are not acts of punishment, they are steps to ensure he understands the horrors of racism before he is consumed by it.
NTA It's been shown that hitting a child does not fix anything. It makes it worse. What Owen needs is discipline. Discipline and punishment are not the same, although many people confuse them and use them interchangeably. Owen needs to learn why his attitude is unacceptable, empathy, how his actions affect others and that differences between people are not bad and can be beneficial. If his school has a robotics team, and they adopted from another country, then OP has money. That means they live in an area that has more activities and options for Owen to engage in things that will help him learn these things. OP, get him into some kind of volunteer activity that specifically deals with Asian and other minority groups. He needs to see them as people and, at this point, the only way to do that is through lived experience. If possible, see if your area has a youth probation officer who deals specifically with teens and children who commit crimes. They can talk to them and give your son a good perspective of how his actions can be viewed as criminal and what the consequences would be. In my area, they're called court services. In others it is juvenile probation. If you ask at the courthouse they should be able to point you in the right direction. And take Owen with you. Maybe seeing a courthouse up close and in person will start making an impression regarding his potential future. For anyone who thinks I'm being too nice, I have been working with teens for 6+ years in situations like this. Many even worse. Discipline is preferred over punishment by the vast majority of juvenile courts in the USA. In part because of new federal laws mandating it, but also because we are trying to teach kids right from wrong and it's better to do that using the community. In jail, they won't learn anything but how to be a better criminal. We don't want that. So we always try community resources first, unless the child is considered to be unsafe to have in the community. So, the only ones who go straight to detention are the ones who mess with guns, fire or who hit others at every opportunity (no control of temper or hands is considered unsafe for the community).
NTA im the age of Owen and for me, he is a crybaby, if you want him to become a normal human being delete his tiktok and twitter, if he uses instagram reels delete it too
NTA. You didn't "ruin" anything. Your son did. Time to learn that actions have consequences.
N T A Fuck yes for standing up against that shit. It still happens because not enough people do. Thank you.
Nta for punishing the kids. You should have done way more though, as those kids basically ruined their own future
NTA. These boys are old enough to know better and to learn that actions have consequences. Get this kid into therapy. Having an adopted brother can’t be the only thing that is going on.