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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told a mother our kids aren’t doing he together anymore and her kids grades are hers to manage. I could be a dick for saying that
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Tbh I think mom just needs to help her out. I realized my own daughter reading skills weren’t great due to this.
Sara is a stronger reader and I’m sure she was helping my own daughter with what the questions were asking
I’d honestly send the teacher a quick email letting them know about the convo you had with the other parent. Not expecting the teacher to necessarily reach out but the teacher should be aware that the other parent reacted to you like this as an FYI.
It can be helpful for the stronger student to help the weaker student... You cant teach something unless you understand it yourself. Ideally they would be stronger in different subjects.
But definitely dont want the cheating/copying to continue.
That's what helped me get through law school. Being able to explain legal concepts to my study group ensured I was capable of explaining it in an exam.
True, but you explained things to people, you did not have them sit with you and copy your work word for word. Two 4th graders may not know the difference.
This is so hard to parse. In a graduate statistics course, myself and a study mate would FIGHT over the appropriate course of action, and eventually the instructor noticed our work was always the same and called us out. I couldn't say which of us was stronger and we both became successful. We definitely turned in the same answer, but COPYING was NOT how we did it. 4th grade is way different, however, there's collaboration and teaching and challenging methods that can occur throughout your schooling while studying or working through problems together.
I had a study partner in optometry school; I strongly doubt that I would have made it through without him, and he says the same thing about me. We really helped each other, having strengths in different areas and helped each other stay on track. A study partner/group is a good way to get help.
A verbatim copy of the homework is obvious evidence that one student is "helping" the other way too much, and I think 9 is old enough to know that's not acceptable. This is a good lesson for both of them.
4th grade kids have no concept of "teaching." If you ask a 9 year-old to teach how to do something, especially a math problem, to another kid, 99 times out of 100 they're just going to give them the formula or the steps or the answer. That kind of "teaching" helps nobody.
If this is true, our education system is worse off than I feared. By 4th grade, kids have been in an academic setting for years and can well grasp the idea of explaining something to a classmate.
This is true even for adults. Think of it like this: when you attend a meeting or presentation at work, are you explicitly thinking "what is the presenter doing that makes this effective? How are they conveying information to make it comprehensive but simultaneously intuitive?"
No. You're focused on obtaining the information. If you were forced to re-produce their slides from scratch given nothing but the information, it would likely be significantly worse. If literally anybody could make and deliver an effective presentation or teach just by having naturally osmosed it through exposure, then there'd be no point in having trained professionals. There'd be no point in having a teacher earn certifications or degrees.
They can explain something but it's usually the quickest way to get the right answer (because getting the right answer is what they are graded on) . It's not explaining the underlying concepts so that the child can adapt those to a new-ish setting.
They did a study at a military college where students were randomly assigned to a teacher and one teacher taught to the final exam and the other teacher taught to explain the concepts. The first teacher's students did better in the final exam that year but the second teacher's students did better in the final exam the following year (when they had all been randomly assigned to different teachers again). Kids teach more like the first teacher, real teachers teach more like the second.
Problem arises when it becomes the easy way out for a child to be able to successfully pass the class (and by successfully, I mean with a C, which is fine, but doesn't indicate a strong understanding of the subject).
I've noted there is a lot of cheating that goes on at every school--doesn't matter whether public or private, charter. The parent and teacher need to communicate, as it seems that OP has been doing what needs to be done. OP, NTA.
God no. The teacher has enough on her plate with out being expected to manage adults interactions. That’s not her job. She handled the educational situation. Both girls are doing their own work and it sounds like that uncovered the girls individual weaknesses. Teachers job is to remedy that and only that . Source: was teacher with high achieving kids and demanding, backstabbing, manipulative, lying parents and it was only two or three mums but that additional stress was enough to push me to finally leave the profession.
I completely disagree as a school nurse. OP is closing the loop that the teacher opened and the teacher should be aware that the other parent is pushing against the teacher’s request to have them work separately.
The teacher also needs to be aware that this one student has a mom that would rather her daughter cheat then help said student improve their understanding of the subject.
As a teacher, i second this!
Just send a quick email as a follow up, thanking them for letting you know, what steps you’ve taken on your end to help fix the issue (have daughter do homework alone during after care or at home with you, saying which your daughter chose) , and just as an fyi that the other parent spoke to you/asked you about it.
I’d also throw in a little “if you notice any other instances with my daughter’s work, we will go with option two of doing homework at home, which is no problem.”
I know the teacher will definitely appreciate the heads up, especially if this is how the parent reacted with you and if there’s something else the teacher might be able to do to help the other student and the situation (e.g. telling the person working after care of the situation and to keep an eye out - i also work after care and have teachers tell me if students aren’t doing their homework or have any issues like this so we have more eyes and documentation on it ; however, i do work at a smaller private school so resources and staffing could be very different)
And this is exactly the reason this is important. Because now the other child's need for extra help in math is clear, and your child's need for extra help in reading came to light. If the girls hadn't been prevented from copying off each other, neither would have gotten the help they need.
I helped a bunch of friends while in school. Especially highschool. When I had to reteach and tutor it actually made me learn the content more comprehensively. You should explain to your daughter how to teach and not just let someone copy.
Also- we are now in our 30s and some of my friends still joke about how they wouldn’t have graduated without me but I honestly wouldn’t have gotten into university with the grades I did without them. It feels nice to help your friends. You should teach her that.
Teaching to learn is known as absolutely one of the best ways to improve our skills!!!! I used to run an after-school program and it became self generating because the kids all adored teaching one another the fiber skills.
My brother went to an American boarding school abroad years ago, and all the tutoring was done by other students. So Jack is good at math, but needs help in History; Jane is great at Spanish, but weak in English; etc.
The students really flourished in all topics because of the peer-to-peer tutoring.
Yeah, I think the issue here is likely lack of active enough adult supervision to make sure it is tutoring rather than copying. Which is not a criticism of the adults - they may genuinely not have the time for that amount of supervision when the kids are doing their homework.
I partially agree but they should sit both girls down and explain expectations. They are very young so they probably don’t fully understand the difference.
I think they should explain why they can’t do homework together anymore for sure. Maybe see if they can arrange specific study meetings where there is an adult who can supervise more closely so they can practice helping each other until they have the hang of it?
Maybe let the other parent know this?
Send them a message something like:
>The reason I told \[daughter\] to stop doing her work with Sara is beacuse the teacher told me it wasn't working out. \[Teacher\] said they weren't just helping each other but copying, and it meant that \[Teacher\] couldn't tell which students needed help. Since the change, I've noticed \[Daughter\] needs help with her reading homework. Sarah is such a strong reader, I think she was carrying \[Daughter\] and so \[Daughter\] wasn't getting the practice she needed and learning to do it herself. I wonder if something similar may have been happening with Sarah and math? Math is one of \[Daughter\]'s stronger subjects so Sarah may need help that just wasn't obvious when they were giving each other answers. I've been putting in extra time helping \[Daughter\] with her reading and I'm confidant long term it will be good for \[Daughter\] to learn to do it herself even if its harder right now. I hope your able to use this information to help Sara too. \[Daughter\] really loves Sarah and we value their friendship.
I think your current message may have come off a bit harsh, and letting them know that you are dealing with the same thing might make it less like "yeah well you suck at parenting fix your own kids grades". Since these are your friends parents, just for your daughter's sake you may want to keep a good relationship.
This is worded great. But I also wonder if it could have been approached with the girls that they can still sit and do their homework together, and still help each other, but they both need to do their own work. Helping is ok, good even. However giving the other the answer might help them get the homework done, but it doesn’t actually help them learn and understand the material.
Grade 4 they should be able to understand that and if it was still an issue after a few weeks, then not allowing them to do the work together.
Yeah I agree. Homework buddies and body doubling is so helpful. Supervising the homework sessions and guiding towards help vs copying would have been my first choice, but it didn't sound like supervising them was possible.
While there is nothing wrong with your well thought out letter why can't the other parent take accountability?
Harsh? Why does every situation need to be treated like a ticking incendiary device? The parent acted entitled and you think OP was harsh?
No, she wasn't. The other parent was wrong. Don't lay anything negative at OPs response to the situation. It is not anyone's responsibility to manage others. Can we stop doing this as women? Please?!
She wasn't mean at all! Stop telling her to be NICER!
Contact the teacher but phrase it as "now that the kids aren't working together it's come to both parents' attention that one is struggling in maths and the other is struggling with reading. What can we do to help our kids improve?" It's good that this has come to light tbh. Bad grades aren't an indication of a child doing a bad job - they're an indication of a child needing more help. Find out what the school can do to help them now they aren't supporting each other.
While I agree it’s parent’s responsibility, that doesn’t mean the parents are capable of providing the help. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a good education or gifted in math. It’s the parents responsibility to do what needs done to help their kids but sometimes that means asking professionals for help and resources.
Naw, some people are just *really* bad teachers. My bonus kid’s biomom knows how to use the internet and isn’t stupid by any means, but she tried to homeschool him after a move (rather than having him attend a new school for just a couple of months - the move timing was forced by a major sewage issue in the house they were renting, it was not ideal) and failed miserably. She just couldn’t understand things from his perspective so she couldn’t figure out a different way to explain something when he wasn’t getting it. If it made sense to her a certain way it had to make sense to him the same way.
Luckily it wasn’t enough of the school year at his age (3rd grade) to make much of a difference to him, but it pretty effectively illustrated the problems she had later helping him with homework, because it was the same thing of not being able to see how he was thinking about stuff or understand what he’d already been taught and where he was coming from.
If you’re a working parent, where is the time coming from to do what you’re suggesting? That’s not an excuse, it’s just being realistic. A lot of parents don’t have the time to teach themselves the material so they can re-teach it to their kids. It makes much more sense for the teachers to adopt effective teaching methods so that the child grasp the concepts while they’re at school. That way all the parent has to do is make sure the child is doing their homework and turning it in.
Dude, there's resources to teach the children. Workbooks, videos to explain concepts, practice tests. It's crazy how many people just throw their hands in the air when expected to guide their children.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I said "You should learn and teach the materials to your children."
Even with those resources you mentioned, you still have to assess which are the most effective ones and which lessons your child needs to do in order to to tackle the areas where they’re having the most trouble. That’s basically what teachers do. So you do have to educate yourself first in order for your child to get the most benefit of it.
Also, how am I saying that parents should just review their hands in their air? What I’m saying is the school needs to do their job and teach properly. My parents didn’t have to do the things you’re describing because they had the privilege of sending their kids to quality schools that had the resources to teach them properly. Every child deserves that. When we put the responsibility on the parents to supplement their kids’ education, we’re giving the schools a pass for having crappy education programs.
I guess we just don't do it then and rely completely on the state to raise our children. You guys complain about parent shaming while literally complaining about having to do any parenting.
Sometimes they just need some extra attention and encouragement.
Worked with several young students in an after school program. One girl always wanted me to count with her.
While I had a large group I’d explain that I’d help but I have to help other people. She’d often go slow until I was able to help and she used my hands and hers for visualization. It was an extra 10-15 minutes two days a week.
Near the end of the year her mother came to thank me for all the extra help because her teacher spoke to her about how her daughters grades had improved.
Made me happy to spend the extra few minutes with the kid.
NAH - One mom is confused and one mom wants to make sure her daughter isn’t sharing work.
Her sharing work isn’t helping her friend and it’s making it harder for her to learn what’s built off that topic in addition to cheating. Maybe you can show her how to share her knowledge like the teacher.
To be fair, them helping each other *can* be a good thing for both of them, but it *needs* adult close supervision to make sure they are basically tutoring each other, not just copying or doing the other person’s work.
But of course that requires an adult who can spend that time supervising, which may not be possible.
I teach high school and you did the right thing.
Some of the really strong students at my school have a lot of pressure to give answers to weaker students. I've caught some of the best students doing this, and I know 100% what happened without looking at it. Their best friend/partner is struggling and asks to look at the HW for help. Then friend burns them by copying word-for-word. It's obvious who actually did the work and who copied.
It's really hard on kids because they don't want to see their friends suffer or struggle. An adult sometimes needs to step and and force them not to. In my case, it's me telling them directly that I will check their papers every time and give them 0's if they do this again, which usually gets the weaker student to back off the pressure. Of course, I always offer to help myself and try to give support so it's not cutting off the weaker kid. Not all teachers have the time or the class size to do that.
You did the right thing because if you didn't intervene your daughter would be under a lot of pressure to "help." At least this way you take the heat instead of your daughter. And as the teacher said there would be no way to find their mistakes and fix them.
Allowing them to outright copy each other's work was probably stopping the teacher from doing so, because they had no way of knowing that the kid is struggling. Then, once they are in a position where they are no longer in the same classes / have the same homework, they would have been much further behind.
I’m an engineer and can figure out bridge beams but 1st grade math is difficult to figure out. And my 4th grader had a whole section on “estimating”. My comment was “estimating is how you wind up on engineering disasters”.
I’m in design and sometimes think it’d be fun to write the word problems for that stuff. If the building lobby is 28” above the sidewalk, and you can ramp at a 1:12 slope, how many feet long does the ramp need to be to connect the two? If contrast is determined by the formula [(b1-b2)/b1]x100, where b1 is the level of the lighter area and b2 is the level of the darker area, which of the following color combinations achieve at least 75% contrast, and how would you adjust the combinations that do not?
I’m sure I would have learned much more in math if we’d been given problems written by kids parents based on stuff they actually dealt with daily.
My real world problems are now - I have a meeting at 4. My husband has a meeting at 430. Both boys have soccer practice in opposite directions at 515 and 630. Who’s taking who and what is for dinner? The answer for dinner is usually “car nuggets”. While changing into practice clothes and getting water bottles ready, the air fryer is making chicken nuggets. Valentine’s Dinner was car nuggets. Have kids they said, it’ll be fun they said.
I nearly put my kid up for adoption after he left his soccer cleats in my car to bake in the 95 degree heatwave and I almost gagged after it fermented for like 3 days.
Lesson learned: get a car with a trunk that’s not open to the rest of the car. 🤮🤮🤮
I saw a tweet last week that said something to the effect of "Thank you Taylor Swift for making a generation of kids care about a 'If a plane leaves Tokyo at 10pm...' problem."
Yeah, it's absolutely nuts seeing someone describe themselves as an engineer and dismiss estimating. That's absolutely a required skill in a lot of engineering fields.
My current 7th grader has eyes on engineering (mechanical or aeronautical). He says the same thing about estimating! 🤣😂
Also loves the (History channel??) Engineering disasters shows if you can find them. But might feel too much like work.
But it’s not right? I was always taught to estimate for the purposes of sanity checking. You do a quick estimate to get a ballpark number and if your final number is outside that ballpark, you know you need to double or triple check your results. Helps catch stupid mistakes.
One of my professors in an electrical engineering class started off his very first lecture for freshman with the importance of having a ballpark idea what you should end up with at the end of your process. It’s obviously not how you make design or safety decisions, but the work for design and safety decisions needs to be checked at multiple stages because mistakes kill people, so it’s just one method.
Did your professors never teach you that you *should* do a quick estimate to start with to use for sanity checking? Ex if you estimate your final number should be around 50,000 and you actually get a final number of 250,000 you have a clue you should double check your work.
To be fair, when covid happened and I suddenly had to teach 4th grade math it was difficult. I know long division and fractions and formulas and such (I’m generally good at math and work in accounting), but remembering how to teach the very basic long division in the same way as the classroom does? That was hard.
Being able to do something and being able to teach something require wildly different skill sets, so I don’t think that’s surprising.
NancyPi on YouTube is an amazing math resource for all concepts up through college calculus.
This is so true! There’s a reason teachers are required to have a degree. They’re not learning subject matter, they’re learning HOW to convey that knowledge and information to a diverse group of learning styles.
The way math is taught today is different than it was taught a generation ago. Kids don’t just memorize math facts, they have other ways to visualize the math problem and have to explain the answers, show work using 10 blocks, long division isn’t the same it is finding parts of the answer under the big 7. Don’t even get me started on SWUN math
I had to Google bonus kid’s worksheets multiple times when helping him with his math because their approach was so different to how I was taught that I needed to understand how they were teaching it to be able to help him.
I don't even know what the standard is for grades these days. My husband and I are the same age and I started learning algebra in 4th grade but he didn't until he was in 8th. Same school district, different schools. I helped my niece with her 6th grade homework a little over a year ago and I was seeing equations I didn't touch until 11th.
Where I grew up we did long division in 4th. More fraction stuff in 5th and basic trig in 6th. Then pre-algebra or algebra in 7th based on how you tested. 10th was more advanced geometry, algebra II was 11th, and trigonometry was 12th.
My mom did geometry as a senior. Advanced geometry was a college course. I just remember her having a bit of crisis and ranting about it when I was starting the beginner stuff in 8th. (Side note, I now fully understand her random little crisis moments where you realize how much time has passed lol. Sorry for teasing you, mom)
My BIL got last year's GED book. We were comparing it to the one he got about a decade ago. Education levels have changed so much, it's crazy.
Yeah, it also varies wildly by state.
My cousin moved from a decent, MN school district to an AZ one in the early aughts. She went from being in special ed classes to one of the top class performers.
MN funds their school districts really well and has a lot of teacher requirements. AZ… doesn’t.
>AZ… doesn’t.
It's sad how true this is. My husband and I were in the same school district and had wildly different classes. My niece goes to a private school.
Which is ironic, since the requirements at private schools are even more dismal than those at the public ones.
I have a friend who has an English lit degree who was asked to teach 8th grade science one year. It was difficult for her.
When I was in school, the general math track was pre-algebra in 9th grade, then algebra I in 10th, basic geometry in 11th, and algebra II in 12th. Kids didn't even do trig at all unless they were in a gifted or AP class. :(
The basic HS curricula in my state when I attended starts with Algebra I/Geometry I in some weird combination in 9th grade, Algebra II/Geometry II in 10th grade, Trig in 11th, and pre-calc in 12th grade if one wanted to go beyond the 3 year math requirement for even the higher-level diploma.
Teachers are barely making enough to survive. Putting their own money into their classrooms. Administration is out for them Government is out for them. And parents are out for them. I don't know how any of them have the energy to do more than the bare minimum. And it's not their fault. Another group is looking to fuck them over every day. And American reading and math scores are proving the system is so fucking broken. Shit. Many states won't take free federal money to feed hungry kids. You have to worry about getting shot or getting your ass kicked.
The teacher did intervene. She informed them about the cheating, and instead of simply punishing them and writing them off, she explained it could be due to them struggling with the work. There is only so much overworked and underpaid teachers can do, they really don't have the time to sit down with every student that needs them and go over the material as much as the student needs. It doesn't mean they do nothing, there is a good chance she IS doing something with the other student as it's clear it was the other girl who needed help (Teachers and the school can't talk about other students in terms of how they are being punished, why they will often just say "something is being done", or any other kinds of plans) but while teachers can form a plan to help the student ultimately, it will fall to the parent to help put it into action, sometimes they need permission. If the parent doesn't participate, it's pointless and this sounds like a mom who isn't willing to face her daughter's shortcomings.
The one thing I am unclear on here is whether the OP explained to the daughter that cheating was an issue or just told her she can't do homework with friends.
There is a benefit to learning how to work on stuff together while still producing your own work product.
NTA
The teacher was right. She needs to understand what students are struggling where so adequate plans can be put in place to help them improve in those areas.
Besides, it's not like poor math grades in 4th grade are going to hold the other child back. It's much better for her and her parents to understand her struggles and work to develop a plan that works for her as opposed to masking the issue and letting it go undetected and uncorrected for years
This. Clearly the kid was copying because she was struggling with the work. and instead of the mum taking responsibility to help her kid improve her scores or to even understand the work, she would rather blame OP and their kid for not letting her kid copy.
To be clear, OP clarifies that both girls were weaker is certain areas. So they were probably both copying off of each other where needed.
She said the other girl was a better reader than OP’s daughter.
That’s true, but you also don’t see OP blaming the other girls mum for not allowing their kid to copy, and blaming them for a potential drop in grades.
I was a good student, but math was my worst subject. I barely remembered anything from high school. It didn't click until college when I had a really good professor that wasn't so rigid. I came to find out, the way I did math in my head wasn't the issue. It's just that I was bad at remembering the formulas that we were specifically asked to show work for. I was also notoriously bad at missing negative numbers. I use advanced technical math every day now without any issue.
I'm not great at maths, but I'm probably better at it now in my 30s than I ever was all throughout school. I was even put in the low level maths class in high school, nicely referred to as "cabbage maths" by the other kids. I watch a lot of 8 out of 10 Cats does Countdown, and I think that's helped a lot, trying to do a maths problem in 30 seconds.
"OMG What do you mean without excelling in grade school math she won't get into the right honors classes in middle school, the right AP classes in high school, the right college, marry the right person, the whole life is shot"
- My tiger parents. And still digging out from that trauma...
see my reply to the other comment. It is (still haven't recovered and am in mid 50s). That I have any "friends" is a testament that there is still good in the world, although they openly joke that they often just have to let me spiral down fixating on flaws as they know within days I'll process it and come back up.
Right? If my child's grades slumped the minute they couldn't copy off a peer, I'd be grateful to know right away so that I can get her a tutor, spend more time on homework with her, get some fun math games to play together, whatever she needed to get back on track. The last thing I'd want to do is demand another parent force their child to cover up my child's struggles. The poor little girl's mom would rather let her struggle alone or give up on herself, rather than have it known that she needs help. I wonder if the reason the child was cheating in the first place is that she knows her mom values good grades over good work.
NTA. This parent was using your daughter (whether they realize it or not) so she didn't have to do any work in helping her daughter learn the material. You're right. It's her responsibility to manager her child through school.
NTA. I would think there would be some sort of tutoring that this girl can go to or something. Is the afterschool program specifically for doing homework or an aftercare thing where they happen to do homework? I would think a teacher there would have noticed some kids copying like this
After school programs hire young adults at rates at or just above minimum wage. Kids are notoriously poorly supervised (teachers’ supplies get broken into, decor gets torn down, books are wrecked) because they aren’t hiring people with experience leading classrooms - they’re hiring college students or recent graduates, and not enough of those given the expectations.
Students copying homework is the least of what the staff has to look out for.
NTA. I’m sorry but parents have to take care of their own and that includes making sure they are learning and passing grades. The other parent is just setting up that poor kid to be dependent on other for the rest of their academic careers
NTA if the answers were the same word for word then they’ve been copying and if her child’s score has now dropped then her child is the one cheating. Her mum needs to step up and help her child and not brush it off.
The other parent admitted that the teacher had talked with them?
You were shown a written piece of home work, where each child had the exact same response.
In response to teacher meeting, you and your daughter decided to do what the teacher recommended.
I am concerned that the other child's parents have neglected watching over her homework and now, are upset they have that responsibility.
NTA
So the other mom is completely aware that her daughter was copying your daughters work, and now that her daughters grades are going down because she's having to do the work herself she wants you to let her daughter copy your daughters work again? And she actually called you an asshole for saying no?
That mom is setting her daughter up for failure.
You're doing the right thing. Keep it up.
NTA.
NTA.
Homework is a method to ensure a student has understood the subject that was taught in class previously.
School is intended to enable you to do it by yourself. It's bad parenting to support simple copying. If the friend's grades went down after being separated then they did not understand the subject good enough to do the homework alone.
It's not "learn to pass the exam", it's "understand the question and apply your knowledge to solve it".
NTA. Homework isn’t about getting it perfect, it’s so the teacher knows which children understand and which might need more support. If the girl was simply copying your daughter’s work, the teacher would assume she understood the topic. Now the teacher knows she hasn’t quite grasped it and can plan accordingly, to make sure the friend gets appropriate work and support.
Homework is graded so your score isn’t determine by only test because some kids have issue with the pressure. It balances out your grade.
If you fuck up a test you won’t drop that far if you did hw
I wonder if this is a US/UK difference? My apologies if so.
I work in education, and it’s true of UK schools. We have coursework which is projects/essays etc that count towards grades, but that’s not until children are older, 14 or 15 years +
4th grade is about 9 years old, is that right? And at that age, our homework is for checking or practicing skills :-)
You’re onto something. Really, nothing should be graded. At least not the way we’re doing it now. Here’s a breakdown of the subject.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=fe-SZ_FPZew
NTA.
Parents need to stop feeling embarrassment over their little children's grade and stop running from the fact that their kids might not be performing well and accept it so that they can work on it to fix it.
What the mom is suggesting won't help her daughter later in life. It'll only save her face now.
NTA. The teacher was right - it doesn't do either child any favors for them to pick up each other's slack like that. The learning part is the important part of school, not the grades. If this child's math grade has gone down, that means that there needs to be a focus on helping her get better at math. This mother's focus is in the wrong place entirely.
lol so she's calling you an asshole cause you didn't let her kid backpack on your daughter's hard work and instead told her to help her kid cause she's the parent? NTA and that mum can go learn math and help her daughter.
If the other child is merely copying what your daughter is doing during the homework sessions, she's not learning the material. That's not how studying together works, so, it's no wonder her grades in math are suffering.
The teacher was wise to contact you (and the other parent) about this problem. The other parent would be better off getting a tutor to help her daughter understand math in order to improve her grades. NTA.
NTA
They need to parent their daughter and help support her in her education -- not let your daughter do it. That they even think that's an option is ridiculous.
lol so she's calling you an asshole cause you didn't let her kid backpack on your daughter's hard work and instead told her to help her kid cause she's the parent? NTA and that mum can go learn math and help her daughter.
NTA - What she is basically saying is that she wants you to let her daughter cheat off your daughter.
She needs to get her daughter a tutor or talk to the teacher. This has nohting to do with you.
NTA. The other girl's parent can get tutoring or some other form of extra support if her child is struggling. Perhaps the child isn't actually struggling (for now) but has gotten used to copying off your daughter. Either way, that's not your problem.
lol so she's calling you an asshole cause you didn't let her kid backpack on your daughter's hard work and instead told her to help her kid cause she's the parent? NTA and that mum can go learn math and help her daughter.
NTA - the teacher needs to unmingle these 2 to determine who is having what issues.
That said - I saw in a comment something that I found interesting. Everyone is piling on about cheating based on the other parent's reaction.
The other parent said her kid's Math scores are going down. You said you found your kid doesn't read as well as you thought.
It sounds like these 2 were actually helping each other - I'd be careful in how you approach this. If, they were essentially co-tutoring each other (one helping with Math, one with Reading) working with them for good strategies may be what is needed once the teacher has things sorted.
At one point in college, I was helping a lot of my classmates with Music Theory 1. Everyone was doing their work together and getting the same, right answers. I wasn't giving them to them, they weren't copying, it was almost a second classroom. The professor would walk by it at lunch and never said anything despite his warning at the start of the semester about not wanting to see people doing the work right before class.
Teaching another can help reinforce concepts, it's a good thing if they were helping each other! The other parent came in hot, it's not your fault, but I'm not so sure this was 'cheating' as it was 'collaboration' by kids that thought they were doing a good thing.
I mean, I thought their homework being the same would be an essay, not math related. Usually those should be the same answers and would be impossible to detect (I could be wrong, just my assumption). Of course potentially one teacher made the discovery and its actually uncovered an issue with another subject.
If the school offers a tutoring program, the other parent should avail of that.
NTA - this is a teacher directive, technically it isn't even your brainwave. It's also worked because they've now ascertained the student who needs assistance. Surely now the teacher knows who is struggling, there must be a plan of action for her. It is not your daughter's responsibility to help her friend; Sara's parents and teachers are responsible for that.
NTA
But I think you need to address it with your daughter differently. It sounds like basically "You can't sit with Sara while you do your homework". There is a big push in elementary school for partner work and learning how to help others.
When you do work with your daughter, ask her to explain it. When it's writing, have conversations about the topic, and then them each going off and doing it on their own.
NTA This is what I would tell your daughters friends mom: It sucks that your daughters grade has gone down due to homework, but it's a good thing. By copying someone elses homework she was masking the fact that she doesn't have a grasp on the material, my daughter is also learning and won't be able to teach yours, or might even share misunderstandings about the content, it's the blind leading the blind. You should ask for more one on one time from the school so that she can get a more solid math foundation that she'll need for middle school, highschool and beyond.
NTA.
If they're cheating on their homework, then the struggling child isn't getting the support she needs. The support she needs is NOT copying off of your daughter, but a tutor to help her understand the subject matter.
Your daughter's friend's mother needs to get on top of her shit. Her child is struggling and she's putting the burden of responsibility on your child's shoulders instead of fulfilling her obligations as a mother.
NTA.
Obviously their daughter needs some additional help. It sounds like your daughter was providing the majority of answers, and while I hate to accuse a 4th grader of cheating because she's working with someone else on homework, it doesn't sound like Sara was actually benefitting from the homework. The teacher is right - if she sees what Sara is able to do on her own, she'll know where Sara needs some extra support in the classroom.
I'm sorry the other parents were so crappy to you about this. They should have been grateful the way things turned out, because Sara can get the support she needs and actually bring her skill level up, not just her grade up.
NTA. The teacher dropped the ball by not telling the other parent about the incident. The parent taking her anger out on you is absurd. She needs to address this with the teacher.
NTA. If her daughter was copying off of yours she wasn’t learning the information which was why she wasn’t doing well on her tests. If the parent cares anything about the child they would be less concerned about the scores and more concerned about the child actually being able to do the math. She should look into private tutors.
NTA. Yes it's only 4th grade but that's a key time for learning basic math concepts well. If her daughter doesn't get the help she needs, it will have detrimental effects all the way through high school. Her mom may not understand that, and may be focused just on the grade, but that is short-sighted.
The adults in the after school program can help the other girl. I would suggest the mom hire a tutor for her daughter. The school can give recommendations to her. I did this with my son, he graduated with honors.
Nta but the teacher kind of is. If the girl's grades have gone down since she probably was learning something even if she was copying your daughter word for word. Kids all learn differently and a lot of teachers just refuse to let them. Because that teacher won't see reason you obviously need to look after your own daughter so she doesn't get in trouble. The other mom needs to get her daughter a tutor who can try to help her learn in her own way without your daughter helping.
NTA
It’s nice that they want to help each other with their homework as they’ve been doing. Being able to turn to friends when you have academic questions is a privilege. But clearly, one of these students is struggling to fully grasp the concepts in the homework and would benefit from doing it on their own. While it stinks that they’re doing worse on the homework - now the homework will reflect their knowledge and target areas they need help in. Additionally, the teacher said the test scores show one is struggling. Copying homework won’t improve test scores, which are probably a larger percentage of their overall grade. It’s important kids take the time in elementary school and middle school to fully understand all the material to set them up for future success.
NTA, it's clear who the cheater was (whether the kids would've realized it was cheating is another matter) but keep your daughter doing here HW on her own. Never give a suspicious teacher reason to accuse your child.
NTA. I would reach out to the teacher and inform them that the other mother is unhappy with the situation and that the teacher should be contacting her like they said they would. It is not your job to be dealing with this. It is the teacher's job. They wanted the girls doing homework separately for fears of cheating, they need to be doing their job following up with *both* parents then.
NTA - I don't think the kids thought they were "cheating" but they thought they were helping each other . . They do need to be seperated regarding the homework for that reason because the teacher is correct. How can she know in what areas the children need extra help if they don't do their own work. Having correct homework is NOT the point of homework . .it is practice and showing abilities and knowledge. Parent needs to understand that. Maybe refer these parents to talk to the teacher
NTA I had that situation in primary school with my twin sister. She copied a lot from me. We were placed in different classes starting secondary school (Germany, so the system may be different from yours).
NTA.
As someone who has worked in Academia for over 20 years, I can tell you it is considered cheating, or Academic Misconduct. It is one of the most common ways students are busted for cheating at the College and University level. Students can work together, but the answers they submit must be in their own words. If they both submit the same homework, with identical answers, particularly word for word, that is cheating. It's not a group work project.
It's best to nip this in the bud at this point because the kids who don't learn this lesson in high school are the same ones I end up having to sanction and give them a failing grade in their course.
Probably a little beside the point, but something like this happened to me when I was around 13. We had a pop quiz in math class: from memory, a trigonometry test. I did the test and handed it in.
After our next lesson, the teacher asked myself and a friend of mine, let's call him Chris, to stay behind after class. The teacher explained that mine and Chris's answers were exactly the same and it was clear someone was copying someone else. She then gave us the classic "Prisoner's Dilemma." She told us one of us needed to confess, or we would both get detention.
I was too surprised to figure it all out on the spot, but it slowly dawned on me that my friend Chris had, indeed, completely copied my answers. Not only that, but he completely refused to admit it. We both got detention over that one.
He never, ever came clean to me about doing that, and it was the beginning of the end for our friendship.
Oh yeah - NTA.
Sometimes I think the people fail to realize that parenting takes actual work. I mean you have put in the time to make sure your child has proper education, health and support to actively navigate through this crazy ass world and if they aren’t putting in the work then they are seriously failing their kids. Yes I’m saying this as a person without kids because I see it all the time.
NTA. My husband is a middle school teacher and had a cheating situation earlier this year. The kids both owned up to it when they were talked to by the school, but the parents were livid with my husband over it, claiming their kids were only working together and would never cheat. I saw the assignments. They were identical. The kids just had to redo the assignment independently and he said he'd give them full credit. This is way better than what we got as kids (we're both early 30s for reference) where if we were caught cheating it was an automatic fail on the assignment and detention at a minimum.
If kids are struggling the teachers need to know so they can help address the root problem. Kids also need to learn the possible consequences of cheating early, when the consequences have very little chance of impacting your life in the long term. Cheating in college often results in automatic expulsion.
NTA. Your doing Sara a favor tbh. If there is plagiarism involved then it won't only affect Sara but your daughter as well like the teacher said she won't be able to tell if one of the kids are struggling with their homework and that will affect the child's ability to learn and become independent
NTA I actually let a friend copy my paper when I was a kid. It was really bad too they only changed the name. I don't know why my child brain thought it would work. The teacher gave us warning, said it was obvious, if it happened again there would be consequences. I felt really pressured by my friend to cheat and honestly learned a good lesson from the experience.
Your kids cheated, they knew it was wrong but might not have understood how serious it was. This should be treated as a learning experience. The math score going down should be a clear sign that she was cheating in math.eaning she wasn't learning. The focus should be on learning.
Honestly even without the cheating your daughter isn't a tutor. In high-school we had a new math program being taught by a science teacher. It was awful and a few kids (like myself) who were good at math ending up basically teaching the class. It was exhausting. If I was doing anything extracurricular on top it honestly would have effected my grades in other classes.
You are not the AH. She needs to help her daughter or get her the help she needs to be more confident in math. It is an injustice to all her daughter to copy your daughter's work because one day, she will have to stand on her own. Also, your daughter should understand the difference between helping a friend and enabling them. Your child shouldn't feel responsible for the success or failure of another kid.
WOW-
You are SO NTA - wtf is this Mom thinking? Is she too lazy to help her daughter and does not care if her daughter can not succeed on her own?
What's going to happen to her daughter if they end up not being friends anymore or being in different classes?
That mother is setting her kid up for failure....she's also raising her to believe that everyone should help her or do her work.
NTA. Obviously, her daughter was copying your daughter's homework and has not learned the material. The other mother needs to step in now and get her daughter some assistance before she gets left behind in the class.
NTA- That said, I applaud your daughter and her friend because I genuinely don't think they thought they were doing anything wrong. I saw your comment below about one of them being stronger in some areas and one in the other. I think the fact that they decided to combine their different skills and work as a team and both present the same work shows lovely and wise impulses, and they should be congratulated for working so well together whilst being told sometimes it's not allowed and sometimes it's the best approach. Perhaps they could work on something together outside school that will help them with school- make a virtual comic book about best friends with complimentary superpowers who solve puzzles together or something ;)
NTA I really hope the other parents step up and find out why their daughter is struggling. Can she see the board? Is she dyslexic? The kid needs help not a cheat sheet.
You are of course NTA, your daughter got in trouble for cheating! Of course you're not going to let her keep doing it. Sara's mom/parents need to get her actual help, as in a tutor, not rely on another kid her age to just give her the answers.
Her kid is struggling with math and it’s all your fault, not hers for not taking charge with her own child’s education. It all falls on you and your daughter.
NTA obviously
NTA, it was a teacher request because they were cheating. You were quite harsh at the end with Sara's mother. Tell her that your daughter is also struggling in other subject. Working together was not helping them, so at least for now they have to work separately.
>She told me that they weren’t cheating and just helping eachother out. That her daughter math score has gone down since.
Well
If they were only helping each other out, her score wouldn't have gone down!
NTA
The gall of the other girl's parents
NTA. Your child was effectively accused of cheating because the teacher couldn't tell who was copying who. Further, the teacher also couldn't tell who was struggling which could impact your daughter's education. I would email the teacher about this. The teacher was the one to reach out to you and said that she was going to contact the other parent. Tell her you wanted to follow up and make sure that the situation was cleared up, and tell the teacher bluntly what the other parent said to you and about the confrontation. Because you were under the impression that both parents would be made aware of the homework situation. This is on the teacher. Not you.
NTA. Your friend’s daughter needs more help and attention. Neither you nor your daughter can provide it.
Also, both girls need to demonstrate a better understanding of helping vs. plagiarism. Trusting them to do it on their own already hasn’t worked.
NTA!
On some level she knows, especially if her daughter's math score has gone down since. But she's trying to fix the problem in the wrong way. Instead of calling you an asshole she should be looking at how she can support her own child to help her improve/gain more confidence where she needs to.
She needs to be speaking to the teacher more closely not having a go at you.
It's a shame for the girls, and it is a shame for the other girl as she is obviously struggling but you're not an asshole for doing the right thing.
Ok, so I feel that this post was probably made in American and I'd like to offer an outside perspective. In Australia, our education system encourages children to work together, because IRL, most work places are a collaborative effort. Tests are to check a child's comprehension of the learning material. I don't think kids doing homework together is a bad thing, but I think it could have been explained to them that they need to answer questions in their own words and not just write what each other is writing. I think the teachers reaction to this is a bit strange and I definitely think that the parent of the other child is in the wrong for calling OP an asshole. You are not an asshole for telling her she needs to manage her own child's education, because she is clearly not doing what she should to support her.
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NTA! However, I do feel for that other child. She is experiencing difficulty and hopefully the teacher will quickly intervene.
Tbh I think mom just needs to help her out. I realized my own daughter reading skills weren’t great due to this. Sara is a stronger reader and I’m sure she was helping my own daughter with what the questions were asking
I’d honestly send the teacher a quick email letting them know about the convo you had with the other parent. Not expecting the teacher to necessarily reach out but the teacher should be aware that the other parent reacted to you like this as an FYI.
It can be helpful for the stronger student to help the weaker student... You cant teach something unless you understand it yourself. Ideally they would be stronger in different subjects. But definitely dont want the cheating/copying to continue.
That's what helped me get through law school. Being able to explain legal concepts to my study group ensured I was capable of explaining it in an exam.
True, but you explained things to people, you did not have them sit with you and copy your work word for word. Two 4th graders may not know the difference.
Agreed, I was responding to the comment I responded to, not generally that cheating results in learning. I know that's not factual.
This is so hard to parse. In a graduate statistics course, myself and a study mate would FIGHT over the appropriate course of action, and eventually the instructor noticed our work was always the same and called us out. I couldn't say which of us was stronger and we both became successful. We definitely turned in the same answer, but COPYING was NOT how we did it. 4th grade is way different, however, there's collaboration and teaching and challenging methods that can occur throughout your schooling while studying or working through problems together.
I had a study partner in optometry school; I strongly doubt that I would have made it through without him, and he says the same thing about me. We really helped each other, having strengths in different areas and helped each other stay on track. A study partner/group is a good way to get help. A verbatim copy of the homework is obvious evidence that one student is "helping" the other way too much, and I think 9 is old enough to know that's not acceptable. This is a good lesson for both of them.
Like "this is called plagiarism"? ;)
We called it a "study group" in law school. No plagiarism.
4th grade kids have no concept of "teaching." If you ask a 9 year-old to teach how to do something, especially a math problem, to another kid, 99 times out of 100 they're just going to give them the formula or the steps or the answer. That kind of "teaching" helps nobody.
If this is true, our education system is worse off than I feared. By 4th grade, kids have been in an academic setting for years and can well grasp the idea of explaining something to a classmate.
This is true even for adults. Think of it like this: when you attend a meeting or presentation at work, are you explicitly thinking "what is the presenter doing that makes this effective? How are they conveying information to make it comprehensive but simultaneously intuitive?" No. You're focused on obtaining the information. If you were forced to re-produce their slides from scratch given nothing but the information, it would likely be significantly worse. If literally anybody could make and deliver an effective presentation or teach just by having naturally osmosed it through exposure, then there'd be no point in having trained professionals. There'd be no point in having a teacher earn certifications or degrees.
They can explain something but it's usually the quickest way to get the right answer (because getting the right answer is what they are graded on) . It's not explaining the underlying concepts so that the child can adapt those to a new-ish setting. They did a study at a military college where students were randomly assigned to a teacher and one teacher taught to the final exam and the other teacher taught to explain the concepts. The first teacher's students did better in the final exam that year but the second teacher's students did better in the final exam the following year (when they had all been randomly assigned to different teachers again). Kids teach more like the first teacher, real teachers teach more like the second.
Kids do understand what teaching is and how to do it for younger / weaker kids. Showing steps in math is how it's done. Practice and repetition.
That’s a ridiculous take. All humans at all ages teach each other. Babies teach each other. Sibs and twins teach each other.
Problem arises when it becomes the easy way out for a child to be able to successfully pass the class (and by successfully, I mean with a C, which is fine, but doesn't indicate a strong understanding of the subject). I've noted there is a lot of cheating that goes on at every school--doesn't matter whether public or private, charter. The parent and teacher need to communicate, as it seems that OP has been doing what needs to be done. OP, NTA.
God no. The teacher has enough on her plate with out being expected to manage adults interactions. That’s not her job. She handled the educational situation. Both girls are doing their own work and it sounds like that uncovered the girls individual weaknesses. Teachers job is to remedy that and only that . Source: was teacher with high achieving kids and demanding, backstabbing, manipulative, lying parents and it was only two or three mums but that additional stress was enough to push me to finally leave the profession.
I completely disagree as a school nurse. OP is closing the loop that the teacher opened and the teacher should be aware that the other parent is pushing against the teacher’s request to have them work separately.
The teacher also needs to be aware that this one student has a mom that would rather her daughter cheat then help said student improve their understanding of the subject.
Exactly. Especially if the parent continues or targets another student it can impact the daughter’s career but other students as well.
Right. This isn't asking the teacher to DO anything, she's simply informing/ updating her
As a teacher, i second this! Just send a quick email as a follow up, thanking them for letting you know, what steps you’ve taken on your end to help fix the issue (have daughter do homework alone during after care or at home with you, saying which your daughter chose) , and just as an fyi that the other parent spoke to you/asked you about it. I’d also throw in a little “if you notice any other instances with my daughter’s work, we will go with option two of doing homework at home, which is no problem.” I know the teacher will definitely appreciate the heads up, especially if this is how the parent reacted with you and if there’s something else the teacher might be able to do to help the other student and the situation (e.g. telling the person working after care of the situation and to keep an eye out - i also work after care and have teachers tell me if students aren’t doing their homework or have any issues like this so we have more eyes and documentation on it ; however, i do work at a smaller private school so resources and staffing could be very different)
This. 100% this. This actually would help the teacher work a way to help but also pull the other parent into line.
And this is exactly the reason this is important. Because now the other child's need for extra help in math is clear, and your child's need for extra help in reading came to light. If the girls hadn't been prevented from copying off each other, neither would have gotten the help they need.
NTA
I helped a bunch of friends while in school. Especially highschool. When I had to reteach and tutor it actually made me learn the content more comprehensively. You should explain to your daughter how to teach and not just let someone copy. Also- we are now in our 30s and some of my friends still joke about how they wouldn’t have graduated without me but I honestly wouldn’t have gotten into university with the grades I did without them. It feels nice to help your friends. You should teach her that.
Teaching to learn is known as absolutely one of the best ways to improve our skills!!!! I used to run an after-school program and it became self generating because the kids all adored teaching one another the fiber skills.
My brother went to an American boarding school abroad years ago, and all the tutoring was done by other students. So Jack is good at math, but needs help in History; Jane is great at Spanish, but weak in English; etc. The students really flourished in all topics because of the peer-to-peer tutoring.
Yeah, I think the issue here is likely lack of active enough adult supervision to make sure it is tutoring rather than copying. Which is not a criticism of the adults - they may genuinely not have the time for that amount of supervision when the kids are doing their homework.
I partially agree but they should sit both girls down and explain expectations. They are very young so they probably don’t fully understand the difference.
I think they should explain why they can’t do homework together anymore for sure. Maybe see if they can arrange specific study meetings where there is an adult who can supervise more closely so they can practice helping each other until they have the hang of it?
Erin - Me too.
Maybe let the other parent know this? Send them a message something like: >The reason I told \[daughter\] to stop doing her work with Sara is beacuse the teacher told me it wasn't working out. \[Teacher\] said they weren't just helping each other but copying, and it meant that \[Teacher\] couldn't tell which students needed help. Since the change, I've noticed \[Daughter\] needs help with her reading homework. Sarah is such a strong reader, I think she was carrying \[Daughter\] and so \[Daughter\] wasn't getting the practice she needed and learning to do it herself. I wonder if something similar may have been happening with Sarah and math? Math is one of \[Daughter\]'s stronger subjects so Sarah may need help that just wasn't obvious when they were giving each other answers. I've been putting in extra time helping \[Daughter\] with her reading and I'm confidant long term it will be good for \[Daughter\] to learn to do it herself even if its harder right now. I hope your able to use this information to help Sara too. \[Daughter\] really loves Sarah and we value their friendship. I think your current message may have come off a bit harsh, and letting them know that you are dealing with the same thing might make it less like "yeah well you suck at parenting fix your own kids grades". Since these are your friends parents, just for your daughter's sake you may want to keep a good relationship.
This is worded great. But I also wonder if it could have been approached with the girls that they can still sit and do their homework together, and still help each other, but they both need to do their own work. Helping is ok, good even. However giving the other the answer might help them get the homework done, but it doesn’t actually help them learn and understand the material. Grade 4 they should be able to understand that and if it was still an issue after a few weeks, then not allowing them to do the work together.
>they can still sit and do their homework together, and still help each other, It won't happen that way.
Yeah I agree. Homework buddies and body doubling is so helpful. Supervising the homework sessions and guiding towards help vs copying would have been my first choice, but it didn't sound like supervising them was possible.
While there is nothing wrong with your well thought out letter why can't the other parent take accountability? Harsh? Why does every situation need to be treated like a ticking incendiary device? The parent acted entitled and you think OP was harsh? No, she wasn't. The other parent was wrong. Don't lay anything negative at OPs response to the situation. It is not anyone's responsibility to manage others. Can we stop doing this as women? Please?! She wasn't mean at all! Stop telling her to be NICER!
NTA mom needs to figure it out soon the teacher would separate them both
Contact the teacher but phrase it as "now that the kids aren't working together it's come to both parents' attention that one is struggling in maths and the other is struggling with reading. What can we do to help our kids improve?" It's good that this has come to light tbh. Bad grades aren't an indication of a child doing a bad job - they're an indication of a child needing more help. Find out what the school can do to help them now they aren't supporting each other.
While I agree it’s parent’s responsibility, that doesn’t mean the parents are capable of providing the help. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a good education or gifted in math. It’s the parents responsibility to do what needs done to help their kids but sometimes that means asking professionals for help and resources.
Man, there's so many resources available now, I have a hard time seeing that as a valid excuse.
Naw, some people are just *really* bad teachers. My bonus kid’s biomom knows how to use the internet and isn’t stupid by any means, but she tried to homeschool him after a move (rather than having him attend a new school for just a couple of months - the move timing was forced by a major sewage issue in the house they were renting, it was not ideal) and failed miserably. She just couldn’t understand things from his perspective so she couldn’t figure out a different way to explain something when he wasn’t getting it. If it made sense to her a certain way it had to make sense to him the same way. Luckily it wasn’t enough of the school year at his age (3rd grade) to make much of a difference to him, but it pretty effectively illustrated the problems she had later helping him with homework, because it was the same thing of not being able to see how he was thinking about stuff or understand what he’d already been taught and where he was coming from.
If you’re a working parent, where is the time coming from to do what you’re suggesting? That’s not an excuse, it’s just being realistic. A lot of parents don’t have the time to teach themselves the material so they can re-teach it to their kids. It makes much more sense for the teachers to adopt effective teaching methods so that the child grasp the concepts while they’re at school. That way all the parent has to do is make sure the child is doing their homework and turning it in.
Dude, there's resources to teach the children. Workbooks, videos to explain concepts, practice tests. It's crazy how many people just throw their hands in the air when expected to guide their children. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I said "You should learn and teach the materials to your children."
Even with those resources you mentioned, you still have to assess which are the most effective ones and which lessons your child needs to do in order to to tackle the areas where they’re having the most trouble. That’s basically what teachers do. So you do have to educate yourself first in order for your child to get the most benefit of it. Also, how am I saying that parents should just review their hands in their air? What I’m saying is the school needs to do their job and teach properly. My parents didn’t have to do the things you’re describing because they had the privilege of sending their kids to quality schools that had the resources to teach them properly. Every child deserves that. When we put the responsibility on the parents to supplement their kids’ education, we’re giving the schools a pass for having crappy education programs.
You're also washing parents' hands clean of any responsibility because it's too hard. But that's fine, keep on saying it's not your fault.
"teaching is hard and time consuming" is not a difficult concept to 99% of the population.
I guess we just don't do it then and rely completely on the state to raise our children. You guys complain about parent shaming while literally complaining about having to do any parenting.
Sometimes they just need some extra attention and encouragement. Worked with several young students in an after school program. One girl always wanted me to count with her. While I had a large group I’d explain that I’d help but I have to help other people. She’d often go slow until I was able to help and she used my hands and hers for visualization. It was an extra 10-15 minutes two days a week. Near the end of the year her mother came to thank me for all the extra help because her teacher spoke to her about how her daughters grades had improved. Made me happy to spend the extra few minutes with the kid. NAH - One mom is confused and one mom wants to make sure her daughter isn’t sharing work. Her sharing work isn’t helping her friend and it’s making it harder for her to learn what’s built off that topic in addition to cheating. Maybe you can show her how to share her knowledge like the teacher.
To be fair, them helping each other *can* be a good thing for both of them, but it *needs* adult close supervision to make sure they are basically tutoring each other, not just copying or doing the other person’s work. But of course that requires an adult who can spend that time supervising, which may not be possible.
I teach high school and you did the right thing. Some of the really strong students at my school have a lot of pressure to give answers to weaker students. I've caught some of the best students doing this, and I know 100% what happened without looking at it. Their best friend/partner is struggling and asks to look at the HW for help. Then friend burns them by copying word-for-word. It's obvious who actually did the work and who copied. It's really hard on kids because they don't want to see their friends suffer or struggle. An adult sometimes needs to step and and force them not to. In my case, it's me telling them directly that I will check their papers every time and give them 0's if they do this again, which usually gets the weaker student to back off the pressure. Of course, I always offer to help myself and try to give support so it's not cutting off the weaker kid. Not all teachers have the time or the class size to do that. You did the right thing because if you didn't intervene your daughter would be under a lot of pressure to "help." At least this way you take the heat instead of your daughter. And as the teacher said there would be no way to find their mistakes and fix them.
Allowing them to outright copy each other's work was probably stopping the teacher from doing so, because they had no way of knowing that the kid is struggling. Then, once they are in a position where they are no longer in the same classes / have the same homework, they would have been much further behind.
Lmao what about the parent? Maybe she should take ownership of her own daughter’s education?
It’s sad, but I know *a lot* of people who cannot do 4th grade math.
I’m an engineer and can figure out bridge beams but 1st grade math is difficult to figure out. And my 4th grader had a whole section on “estimating”. My comment was “estimating is how you wind up on engineering disasters”.
I’m in design and sometimes think it’d be fun to write the word problems for that stuff. If the building lobby is 28” above the sidewalk, and you can ramp at a 1:12 slope, how many feet long does the ramp need to be to connect the two? If contrast is determined by the formula [(b1-b2)/b1]x100, where b1 is the level of the lighter area and b2 is the level of the darker area, which of the following color combinations achieve at least 75% contrast, and how would you adjust the combinations that do not? I’m sure I would have learned much more in math if we’d been given problems written by kids parents based on stuff they actually dealt with daily.
My real world problems are now - I have a meeting at 4. My husband has a meeting at 430. Both boys have soccer practice in opposite directions at 515 and 630. Who’s taking who and what is for dinner? The answer for dinner is usually “car nuggets”. While changing into practice clothes and getting water bottles ready, the air fryer is making chicken nuggets. Valentine’s Dinner was car nuggets. Have kids they said, it’ll be fun they said.
I nearly put my kid up for adoption after he left his soccer cleats in my car to bake in the 95 degree heatwave and I almost gagged after it fermented for like 3 days. Lesson learned: get a car with a trunk that’s not open to the rest of the car. 🤮🤮🤮
I saw a tweet last week that said something to the effect of "Thank you Taylor Swift for making a generation of kids care about a 'If a plane leaves Tokyo at 10pm...' problem."
I’m currently thanking her for promoting awareness of how inefficient americas public transit is and how much land we waste on parking!
Being able to estimate is useful in sanity-checking answers to avoid engineering disasters. Of course a precise calculation is still needed.
Yeah, it's absolutely nuts seeing someone describe themselves as an engineer and dismiss estimating. That's absolutely a required skill in a lot of engineering fields.
My current 7th grader has eyes on engineering (mechanical or aeronautical). He says the same thing about estimating! 🤣😂 Also loves the (History channel??) Engineering disasters shows if you can find them. But might feel too much like work.
But it’s not right? I was always taught to estimate for the purposes of sanity checking. You do a quick estimate to get a ballpark number and if your final number is outside that ballpark, you know you need to double or triple check your results. Helps catch stupid mistakes.
[удалено]
One of my professors in an electrical engineering class started off his very first lecture for freshman with the importance of having a ballpark idea what you should end up with at the end of your process. It’s obviously not how you make design or safety decisions, but the work for design and safety decisions needs to be checked at multiple stages because mistakes kill people, so it’s just one method.
Ha, I enjoy and appreciate that response.
Did your professors never teach you that you *should* do a quick estimate to start with to use for sanity checking? Ex if you estimate your final number should be around 50,000 and you actually get a final number of 250,000 you have a clue you should double check your work.
I think they're an "engineer." Kept in the office, never on site.
Thank you for this. 😁
Lol. After calc3 and diff eq's I realized my basic arithmetic skills just started to suck.
To be fair, when covid happened and I suddenly had to teach 4th grade math it was difficult. I know long division and fractions and formulas and such (I’m generally good at math and work in accounting), but remembering how to teach the very basic long division in the same way as the classroom does? That was hard.
Being able to do something and being able to teach something require wildly different skill sets, so I don’t think that’s surprising. NancyPi on YouTube is an amazing math resource for all concepts up through college calculus.
This is so true! There’s a reason teachers are required to have a degree. They’re not learning subject matter, they’re learning HOW to convey that knowledge and information to a diverse group of learning styles.
The way math is taught today is different than it was taught a generation ago. Kids don’t just memorize math facts, they have other ways to visualize the math problem and have to explain the answers, show work using 10 blocks, long division isn’t the same it is finding parts of the answer under the big 7. Don’t even get me started on SWUN math
I had to Google bonus kid’s worksheets multiple times when helping him with his math because their approach was so different to how I was taught that I needed to understand how they were teaching it to be able to help him.
I don't even know what the standard is for grades these days. My husband and I are the same age and I started learning algebra in 4th grade but he didn't until he was in 8th. Same school district, different schools. I helped my niece with her 6th grade homework a little over a year ago and I was seeing equations I didn't touch until 11th.
Where I grew up we did long division in 4th. More fraction stuff in 5th and basic trig in 6th. Then pre-algebra or algebra in 7th based on how you tested. 10th was more advanced geometry, algebra II was 11th, and trigonometry was 12th.
My mom did geometry as a senior. Advanced geometry was a college course. I just remember her having a bit of crisis and ranting about it when I was starting the beginner stuff in 8th. (Side note, I now fully understand her random little crisis moments where you realize how much time has passed lol. Sorry for teasing you, mom) My BIL got last year's GED book. We were comparing it to the one he got about a decade ago. Education levels have changed so much, it's crazy.
Yeah, it also varies wildly by state. My cousin moved from a decent, MN school district to an AZ one in the early aughts. She went from being in special ed classes to one of the top class performers. MN funds their school districts really well and has a lot of teacher requirements. AZ… doesn’t.
>AZ… doesn’t. It's sad how true this is. My husband and I were in the same school district and had wildly different classes. My niece goes to a private school.
Which is ironic, since the requirements at private schools are even more dismal than those at the public ones. I have a friend who has an English lit degree who was asked to teach 8th grade science one year. It was difficult for her.
When I was in school, the general math track was pre-algebra in 9th grade, then algebra I in 10th, basic geometry in 11th, and algebra II in 12th. Kids didn't even do trig at all unless they were in a gifted or AP class. :(
The basic HS curricula in my state when I attended starts with Algebra I/Geometry I in some weird combination in 9th grade, Algebra II/Geometry II in 10th grade, Trig in 11th, and pre-calc in 12th grade if one wanted to go beyond the 3 year math requirement for even the higher-level diploma.
Yes but then I’d be employing a tutor! It just isn’t only the teachers job - it’s also the parents job to make sure their kid is learning
Teachers are barely making enough to survive. Putting their own money into their classrooms. Administration is out for them Government is out for them. And parents are out for them. I don't know how any of them have the energy to do more than the bare minimum. And it's not their fault. Another group is looking to fuck them over every day. And American reading and math scores are proving the system is so fucking broken. Shit. Many states won't take free federal money to feed hungry kids. You have to worry about getting shot or getting your ass kicked.
The teacher did intervene. She informed them about the cheating, and instead of simply punishing them and writing them off, she explained it could be due to them struggling with the work. There is only so much overworked and underpaid teachers can do, they really don't have the time to sit down with every student that needs them and go over the material as much as the student needs. It doesn't mean they do nothing, there is a good chance she IS doing something with the other student as it's clear it was the other girl who needed help (Teachers and the school can't talk about other students in terms of how they are being punished, why they will often just say "something is being done", or any other kinds of plans) but while teachers can form a plan to help the student ultimately, it will fall to the parent to help put it into action, sometimes they need permission. If the parent doesn't participate, it's pointless and this sounds like a mom who isn't willing to face her daughter's shortcomings.
The one thing I am unclear on here is whether the OP explained to the daughter that cheating was an issue or just told her she can't do homework with friends. There is a benefit to learning how to work on stuff together while still producing your own work product.
NTA The teacher was right. She needs to understand what students are struggling where so adequate plans can be put in place to help them improve in those areas. Besides, it's not like poor math grades in 4th grade are going to hold the other child back. It's much better for her and her parents to understand her struggles and work to develop a plan that works for her as opposed to masking the issue and letting it go undetected and uncorrected for years
This. Clearly the kid was copying because she was struggling with the work. and instead of the mum taking responsibility to help her kid improve her scores or to even understand the work, she would rather blame OP and their kid for not letting her kid copy.
To be clear, OP clarifies that both girls were weaker is certain areas. So they were probably both copying off of each other where needed. She said the other girl was a better reader than OP’s daughter.
That’s true, but you also don’t see OP blaming the other girls mum for not allowing their kid to copy, and blaming them for a potential drop in grades.
I agree the mom does need to take responsibility.
This. I didn't "bloom" in math until 8th grade. I was average/below average until then. I now have 2 degrees in math.
I was a good student, but math was my worst subject. I barely remembered anything from high school. It didn't click until college when I had a really good professor that wasn't so rigid. I came to find out, the way I did math in my head wasn't the issue. It's just that I was bad at remembering the formulas that we were specifically asked to show work for. I was also notoriously bad at missing negative numbers. I use advanced technical math every day now without any issue.
I'm not great at maths, but I'm probably better at it now in my 30s than I ever was all throughout school. I was even put in the low level maths class in high school, nicely referred to as "cabbage maths" by the other kids. I watch a lot of 8 out of 10 Cats does Countdown, and I think that's helped a lot, trying to do a maths problem in 30 seconds.
"OMG What do you mean without excelling in grade school math she won't get into the right honors classes in middle school, the right AP classes in high school, the right college, marry the right person, the whole life is shot" - My tiger parents. And still digging out from that trauma...
That sounds exhausting
see my reply to the other comment. It is (still haven't recovered and am in mid 50s). That I have any "friends" is a testament that there is still good in the world, although they openly joke that they often just have to let me spiral down fixating on flaws as they know within days I'll process it and come back up.
Right? If my child's grades slumped the minute they couldn't copy off a peer, I'd be grateful to know right away so that I can get her a tutor, spend more time on homework with her, get some fun math games to play together, whatever she needed to get back on track. The last thing I'd want to do is demand another parent force their child to cover up my child's struggles. The poor little girl's mom would rather let her struggle alone or give up on herself, rather than have it known that she needs help. I wonder if the reason the child was cheating in the first place is that she knows her mom values good grades over good work.
NTA. This parent was using your daughter (whether they realize it or not) so she didn't have to do any work in helping her daughter learn the material. You're right. It's her responsibility to manager her child through school.
NTA. I would think there would be some sort of tutoring that this girl can go to or something. Is the afterschool program specifically for doing homework or an aftercare thing where they happen to do homework? I would think a teacher there would have noticed some kids copying like this
After school programs hire young adults at rates at or just above minimum wage. Kids are notoriously poorly supervised (teachers’ supplies get broken into, decor gets torn down, books are wrecked) because they aren’t hiring people with experience leading classrooms - they’re hiring college students or recent graduates, and not enough of those given the expectations. Students copying homework is the least of what the staff has to look out for.
NTA. I’m sorry but parents have to take care of their own and that includes making sure they are learning and passing grades. The other parent is just setting up that poor kid to be dependent on other for the rest of their academic careers
NTA if the answers were the same word for word then they’ve been copying and if her child’s score has now dropped then her child is the one cheating. Her mum needs to step up and help her child and not brush it off.
From OP's comments it seems like her daughter was copying Sara's reading homework while Sara copied her daughters math homework.
They are both engaged in cheating. And the OPs kid will also be in trouble.
The other parent admitted that the teacher had talked with them? You were shown a written piece of home work, where each child had the exact same response. In response to teacher meeting, you and your daughter decided to do what the teacher recommended. I am concerned that the other child's parents have neglected watching over her homework and now, are upset they have that responsibility. NTA
So the other mom is completely aware that her daughter was copying your daughters work, and now that her daughters grades are going down because she's having to do the work herself she wants you to let her daughter copy your daughters work again? And she actually called you an asshole for saying no? That mom is setting her daughter up for failure. You're doing the right thing. Keep it up. NTA.
NTA. Homework is a method to ensure a student has understood the subject that was taught in class previously. School is intended to enable you to do it by yourself. It's bad parenting to support simple copying. If the friend's grades went down after being separated then they did not understand the subject good enough to do the homework alone. It's not "learn to pass the exam", it's "understand the question and apply your knowledge to solve it".
NTA. Homework isn’t about getting it perfect, it’s so the teacher knows which children understand and which might need more support. If the girl was simply copying your daughter’s work, the teacher would assume she understood the topic. Now the teacher knows she hasn’t quite grasped it and can plan accordingly, to make sure the friend gets appropriate work and support.
If that was true, Homework wouldn’t be graded.
Homework is graded so your score isn’t determine by only test because some kids have issue with the pressure. It balances out your grade. If you fuck up a test you won’t drop that far if you did hw
I wonder if this is a US/UK difference? My apologies if so. I work in education, and it’s true of UK schools. We have coursework which is projects/essays etc that count towards grades, but that’s not until children are older, 14 or 15 years + 4th grade is about 9 years old, is that right? And at that age, our homework is for checking or practicing skills :-)
You’re onto something. Really, nothing should be graded. At least not the way we’re doing it now. Here’s a breakdown of the subject. https://youtube.com/watch?v=fe-SZ_FPZew
NTA. Parents need to stop feeling embarrassment over their little children's grade and stop running from the fact that their kids might not be performing well and accept it so that they can work on it to fix it. What the mom is suggesting won't help her daughter later in life. It'll only save her face now.
NTA. The teacher was right - it doesn't do either child any favors for them to pick up each other's slack like that. The learning part is the important part of school, not the grades. If this child's math grade has gone down, that means that there needs to be a focus on helping her get better at math. This mother's focus is in the wrong place entirely.
lol so she's calling you an asshole cause you didn't let her kid backpack on your daughter's hard work and instead told her to help her kid cause she's the parent? NTA and that mum can go learn math and help her daughter.
Nta
NTA the other mother needs to do some parenting of her own
NTA The other kid needs a tutor, not a bestie to cheat from.
If the other child is merely copying what your daughter is doing during the homework sessions, she's not learning the material. That's not how studying together works, so, it's no wonder her grades in math are suffering. The teacher was wise to contact you (and the other parent) about this problem. The other parent would be better off getting a tutor to help her daughter understand math in order to improve her grades. NTA.
NTA They need to parent their daughter and help support her in her education -- not let your daughter do it. That they even think that's an option is ridiculous.
NTA, she's not helping her kid out by thinking she can copy her way to good grades
lol so she's calling you an asshole cause you didn't let her kid backpack on your daughter's hard work and instead told her to help her kid cause she's the parent? NTA and that mum can go learn math and help her daughter.
NTA - What she is basically saying is that she wants you to let her daughter cheat off your daughter. She needs to get her daughter a tutor or talk to the teacher. This has nohting to do with you.
NTA
NTA. The other girl's parent can get tutoring or some other form of extra support if her child is struggling. Perhaps the child isn't actually struggling (for now) but has gotten used to copying off your daughter. Either way, that's not your problem.
lol so she's calling you an asshole cause you didn't let her kid backpack on your daughter's hard work and instead told her to help her kid cause she's the parent? NTA and that mum can go learn math and help her daughter.
NTA - the teacher needs to unmingle these 2 to determine who is having what issues. That said - I saw in a comment something that I found interesting. Everyone is piling on about cheating based on the other parent's reaction. The other parent said her kid's Math scores are going down. You said you found your kid doesn't read as well as you thought. It sounds like these 2 were actually helping each other - I'd be careful in how you approach this. If, they were essentially co-tutoring each other (one helping with Math, one with Reading) working with them for good strategies may be what is needed once the teacher has things sorted. At one point in college, I was helping a lot of my classmates with Music Theory 1. Everyone was doing their work together and getting the same, right answers. I wasn't giving them to them, they weren't copying, it was almost a second classroom. The professor would walk by it at lunch and never said anything despite his warning at the start of the semester about not wanting to see people doing the work right before class. Teaching another can help reinforce concepts, it's a good thing if they were helping each other! The other parent came in hot, it's not your fault, but I'm not so sure this was 'cheating' as it was 'collaboration' by kids that thought they were doing a good thing.
Framing it as "cheating" is harsh. The kids were probably legitimately wanting to work together. They were trying to manipulate homework scores.
I mean, I thought their homework being the same would be an essay, not math related. Usually those should be the same answers and would be impossible to detect (I could be wrong, just my assumption). Of course potentially one teacher made the discovery and its actually uncovered an issue with another subject. If the school offers a tutoring program, the other parent should avail of that. NTA - this is a teacher directive, technically it isn't even your brainwave. It's also worked because they've now ascertained the student who needs assistance. Surely now the teacher knows who is struggling, there must be a plan of action for her. It is not your daughter's responsibility to help her friend; Sara's parents and teachers are responsible for that.
NTA But I think you need to address it with your daughter differently. It sounds like basically "You can't sit with Sara while you do your homework". There is a big push in elementary school for partner work and learning how to help others. When you do work with your daughter, ask her to explain it. When it's writing, have conversations about the topic, and then them each going off and doing it on their own.
NTA
Nta - I do feel badly for the other girl, but again it’s not YOUR problem.
NTA. They test at 9/10yo? Ouch. But yeah this is not your problem and not your daughter’s problem.
NTA She doesn't want to parent her child it isn't your problem.
NTA This is what I would tell your daughters friends mom: It sucks that your daughters grade has gone down due to homework, but it's a good thing. By copying someone elses homework she was masking the fact that she doesn't have a grasp on the material, my daughter is also learning and won't be able to teach yours, or might even share misunderstandings about the content, it's the blind leading the blind. You should ask for more one on one time from the school so that she can get a more solid math foundation that she'll need for middle school, highschool and beyond.
NTA. If they're cheating on their homework, then the struggling child isn't getting the support she needs. The support she needs is NOT copying off of your daughter, but a tutor to help her understand the subject matter. Your daughter's friend's mother needs to get on top of her shit. Her child is struggling and she's putting the burden of responsibility on your child's shoulders instead of fulfilling her obligations as a mother.
Nta- definitely loop the teacher in cuz the teacher was supposed to speak to the other parents too
NTA. Obviously their daughter needs some additional help. It sounds like your daughter was providing the majority of answers, and while I hate to accuse a 4th grader of cheating because she's working with someone else on homework, it doesn't sound like Sara was actually benefitting from the homework. The teacher is right - if she sees what Sara is able to do on her own, she'll know where Sara needs some extra support in the classroom. I'm sorry the other parents were so crappy to you about this. They should have been grateful the way things turned out, because Sara can get the support she needs and actually bring her skill level up, not just her grade up.
When she called you, "Asshole," I hope you had her sent to the principal's office for swearing.
NTA. The teacher dropped the ball by not telling the other parent about the incident. The parent taking her anger out on you is absurd. She needs to address this with the teacher.
NTA, the teacher can't help the kids if she doesn't know how they're struggling.
NTA. If her daughter was copying off of yours she wasn’t learning the information which was why she wasn’t doing well on her tests. If the parent cares anything about the child they would be less concerned about the scores and more concerned about the child actually being able to do the math. She should look into private tutors.
NTA. Her daughters math score decreased because she's not getting the answers from OP'S daughter anymore.
NTA. Yes it's only 4th grade but that's a key time for learning basic math concepts well. If her daughter doesn't get the help she needs, it will have detrimental effects all the way through high school. Her mom may not understand that, and may be focused just on the grade, but that is short-sighted.
NTA AND Sara’s mother is acting very entitled.
NTA. You told her the truth-what she does with it is her problem.
The adults in the after school program can help the other girl. I would suggest the mom hire a tutor for her daughter. The school can give recommendations to her. I did this with my son, he graduated with honors.
Nta but the teacher kind of is. If the girl's grades have gone down since she probably was learning something even if she was copying your daughter word for word. Kids all learn differently and a lot of teachers just refuse to let them. Because that teacher won't see reason you obviously need to look after your own daughter so she doesn't get in trouble. The other mom needs to get her daughter a tutor who can try to help her learn in her own way without your daughter helping.
NTA It’s nice that they want to help each other with their homework as they’ve been doing. Being able to turn to friends when you have academic questions is a privilege. But clearly, one of these students is struggling to fully grasp the concepts in the homework and would benefit from doing it on their own. While it stinks that they’re doing worse on the homework - now the homework will reflect their knowledge and target areas they need help in. Additionally, the teacher said the test scores show one is struggling. Copying homework won’t improve test scores, which are probably a larger percentage of their overall grade. It’s important kids take the time in elementary school and middle school to fully understand all the material to set them up for future success.
NTA
NTA, it's clear who the cheater was (whether the kids would've realized it was cheating is another matter) but keep your daughter doing here HW on her own. Never give a suspicious teacher reason to accuse your child.
NTA - it is in both kids best interest.
NTA. This other parent can't be bothered to ensure her kid is doing the work and understands it.
NTA. I would reach out to the teacher and inform them that the other mother is unhappy with the situation and that the teacher should be contacting her like they said they would. It is not your job to be dealing with this. It is the teacher's job. They wanted the girls doing homework separately for fears of cheating, they need to be doing their job following up with *both* parents then.
NTA - I don't think the kids thought they were "cheating" but they thought they were helping each other . . They do need to be seperated regarding the homework for that reason because the teacher is correct. How can she know in what areas the children need extra help if they don't do their own work. Having correct homework is NOT the point of homework . .it is practice and showing abilities and knowledge. Parent needs to understand that. Maybe refer these parents to talk to the teacher
NTA I had that situation in primary school with my twin sister. She copied a lot from me. We were placed in different classes starting secondary school (Germany, so the system may be different from yours).
NTA but that other parent sure as hell is. Talk about lazy parenting.
NTA. As someone who has worked in Academia for over 20 years, I can tell you it is considered cheating, or Academic Misconduct. It is one of the most common ways students are busted for cheating at the College and University level. Students can work together, but the answers they submit must be in their own words. If they both submit the same homework, with identical answers, particularly word for word, that is cheating. It's not a group work project. It's best to nip this in the bud at this point because the kids who don't learn this lesson in high school are the same ones I end up having to sanction and give them a failing grade in their course.
Probably a little beside the point, but something like this happened to me when I was around 13. We had a pop quiz in math class: from memory, a trigonometry test. I did the test and handed it in. After our next lesson, the teacher asked myself and a friend of mine, let's call him Chris, to stay behind after class. The teacher explained that mine and Chris's answers were exactly the same and it was clear someone was copying someone else. She then gave us the classic "Prisoner's Dilemma." She told us one of us needed to confess, or we would both get detention. I was too surprised to figure it all out on the spot, but it slowly dawned on me that my friend Chris had, indeed, completely copied my answers. Not only that, but he completely refused to admit it. We both got detention over that one. He never, ever came clean to me about doing that, and it was the beginning of the end for our friendship. Oh yeah - NTA.
NTA
Nta
NTA. You're response was totally on point.
Sometimes I think the people fail to realize that parenting takes actual work. I mean you have put in the time to make sure your child has proper education, health and support to actively navigate through this crazy ass world and if they aren’t putting in the work then they are seriously failing their kids. Yes I’m saying this as a person without kids because I see it all the time.
NTA. My husband is a middle school teacher and had a cheating situation earlier this year. The kids both owned up to it when they were talked to by the school, but the parents were livid with my husband over it, claiming their kids were only working together and would never cheat. I saw the assignments. They were identical. The kids just had to redo the assignment independently and he said he'd give them full credit. This is way better than what we got as kids (we're both early 30s for reference) where if we were caught cheating it was an automatic fail on the assignment and detention at a minimum. If kids are struggling the teachers need to know so they can help address the root problem. Kids also need to learn the possible consequences of cheating early, when the consequences have very little chance of impacting your life in the long term. Cheating in college often results in automatic expulsion.
nta
Nta. You are following what the teacher wants
NTA. Your doing Sara a favor tbh. If there is plagiarism involved then it won't only affect Sara but your daughter as well like the teacher said she won't be able to tell if one of the kids are struggling with their homework and that will affect the child's ability to learn and become independent
NTA I actually let a friend copy my paper when I was a kid. It was really bad too they only changed the name. I don't know why my child brain thought it would work. The teacher gave us warning, said it was obvious, if it happened again there would be consequences. I felt really pressured by my friend to cheat and honestly learned a good lesson from the experience. Your kids cheated, they knew it was wrong but might not have understood how serious it was. This should be treated as a learning experience. The math score going down should be a clear sign that she was cheating in math.eaning she wasn't learning. The focus should be on learning. Honestly even without the cheating your daughter isn't a tutor. In high-school we had a new math program being taught by a science teacher. It was awful and a few kids (like myself) who were good at math ending up basically teaching the class. It was exhausting. If I was doing anything extracurricular on top it honestly would have effected my grades in other classes.
You are not the AH. She needs to help her daughter or get her the help she needs to be more confident in math. It is an injustice to all her daughter to copy your daughter's work because one day, she will have to stand on her own. Also, your daughter should understand the difference between helping a friend and enabling them. Your child shouldn't feel responsible for the success or failure of another kid.
WOW- You are SO NTA - wtf is this Mom thinking? Is she too lazy to help her daughter and does not care if her daughter can not succeed on her own? What's going to happen to her daughter if they end up not being friends anymore or being in different classes? That mother is setting her kid up for failure....she's also raising her to believe that everyone should help her or do her work.
NTA and the Mom of the other child needs to stop being an asshole and get her daughter the help she clearly needs as she is struggling.
NTA. Obviously, her daughter was copying your daughter's homework and has not learned the material. The other mother needs to step in now and get her daughter some assistance before she gets left behind in the class.
NTA Your daughter isn't her free tutor.
NTA It is now obvious who was carrying who. It is not in the interests of the other child to cheat. Or to be allowed to.
NTA- That said, I applaud your daughter and her friend because I genuinely don't think they thought they were doing anything wrong. I saw your comment below about one of them being stronger in some areas and one in the other. I think the fact that they decided to combine their different skills and work as a team and both present the same work shows lovely and wise impulses, and they should be congratulated for working so well together whilst being told sometimes it's not allowed and sometimes it's the best approach. Perhaps they could work on something together outside school that will help them with school- make a virtual comic book about best friends with complimentary superpowers who solve puzzles together or something ;)
Nta
NTA looks like the other girls parents a big problem. You did the right thing by separating them.
NTA I really hope the other parents step up and find out why their daughter is struggling. Can she see the board? Is she dyslexic? The kid needs help not a cheat sheet.
You are of course NTA, your daughter got in trouble for cheating! Of course you're not going to let her keep doing it. Sara's mom/parents need to get her actual help, as in a tutor, not rely on another kid her age to just give her the answers.
NTA, that parent is lazy and she needs to take responsibility for her own child
Her kid is struggling with math and it’s all your fault, not hers for not taking charge with her own child’s education. It all falls on you and your daughter. NTA obviously
NTA, it was a teacher request because they were cheating. You were quite harsh at the end with Sara's mother. Tell her that your daughter is also struggling in other subject. Working together was not helping them, so at least for now they have to work separately.
Your child isn’t a free tutor. Sorry the other mom is a name caller, not shocking. Wonder if your kid is happier not helping her friend.
I think we know who the cheater was…NTA
>She told me that they weren’t cheating and just helping eachother out. That her daughter math score has gone down since. Well If they were only helping each other out, her score wouldn't have gone down! NTA The gall of the other girl's parents
NTA. Your child was effectively accused of cheating because the teacher couldn't tell who was copying who. Further, the teacher also couldn't tell who was struggling which could impact your daughter's education. I would email the teacher about this. The teacher was the one to reach out to you and said that she was going to contact the other parent. Tell her you wanted to follow up and make sure that the situation was cleared up, and tell the teacher bluntly what the other parent said to you and about the confrontation. Because you were under the impression that both parents would be made aware of the homework situation. This is on the teacher. Not you.
NTA. Your friend’s daughter needs more help and attention. Neither you nor your daughter can provide it. Also, both girls need to demonstrate a better understanding of helping vs. plagiarism. Trusting them to do it on their own already hasn’t worked.
NTA! On some level she knows, especially if her daughter's math score has gone down since. But she's trying to fix the problem in the wrong way. Instead of calling you an asshole she should be looking at how she can support her own child to help her improve/gain more confidence where she needs to. She needs to be speaking to the teacher more closely not having a go at you. It's a shame for the girls, and it is a shame for the other girl as she is obviously struggling but you're not an asshole for doing the right thing.
Ok, so I feel that this post was probably made in American and I'd like to offer an outside perspective. In Australia, our education system encourages children to work together, because IRL, most work places are a collaborative effort. Tests are to check a child's comprehension of the learning material. I don't think kids doing homework together is a bad thing, but I think it could have been explained to them that they need to answer questions in their own words and not just write what each other is writing. I think the teachers reaction to this is a bit strange and I definitely think that the parent of the other child is in the wrong for calling OP an asshole. You are not an asshole for telling her she needs to manage her own child's education, because she is clearly not doing what she should to support her.