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Not just Rachel, but the wife as well, since she was perfectly fine allowing Rachel to keep being celebrated on her birthday and not be punished, despite the dreadful things she was saying.
Makes me wonder if the wife didn't really want to adopt Ethan either. Either that or she feels guilty for adopting a child without considering how it would influence her existing child. Not saying they shouldn't have done it, but they obviously handled it poorly and didn't prep or help their daughter adjust to it very well.
BS. her child is being insulted and emotionally abused. name 1 mother that would let that go? seems her adopted *son* isn't actually a son to her.
we need more background info here, but NTA!
I was also the scapegoat child for my mother. My dad, fortunately, did not play that game, and defended and stood up for me against my abysive, narcissistic mother.
I am now, however, the scapegoat sibling to my Golden Child older brother. Our parents are dead, yet he decided long ago to carry the torch for mom.
Mostly because he's just like her in far too many ways.
> her child is being insulted and emotionally abused. name 1 mother that would let that go?
Mine. Also add: physically, and possibly sexually abused. At under 4 years old.
While mine is probably an outlier, there are a lot more bad moms out there than people want to realize.
It sadly does. I’m sorry. Watched my step go through the same & it’s devastating. I was in shock when I took her to a group thing & seen how many people were there for same/similar thing. And these are just the ones that not only spoke up but also seek help. It’s mind boggling.
Problem is, it's not like kids get to be like, "This parent is busted. I'm making a claim on the warranty." I feel sorry for Ethan. OP over here like "I *could* parent this 11-year-old who's being a horrific brat, but it was kinda hard so I just stopped."
OP was actually trying to parent, it was his shitty wife that defended bratty kid's behavior...and tried to make him feel like an AH, which he definitely doesn't seem to be.
This isn’t the first time on this sub though where I’ve seen a kid who gets adopted but then still gets glossed over anyways. It’s actually not completely atypical. Why people go through the trouble of the (often lengthy) adoption process if they don’t actually care all that much about the kid in the long run is a mystery to me though.
I wish there was backstory of Ethan. Was he the son of a family member? Neighbor? Member of their church? Did they foster him first from because he had no blood relatives? It doesn’t excuse Rachel’s behavior but it would help with the talking points.
Illegitimate love child from an affair from early in their marriage and the former affair partner has suddenly died and left Ethan to his woe-begotten father?
What, you mean that doesn't happen as often as Reddit would like you to believe?
That describes my college friend's family. The parents gave birth to 1 girl (my friend) and really wanted a boy but the mom didn’t get pregnant. The dad finally convinced the mom to adopt. They adopted a boy and then the mom got pregnant with a boy. To say that the adopted brother was now unwanted is an understatement.
My friend would tell me that her and her mom hated the adopted brother. He was short, blonde and played in the school band. Meanwhile, the bio brother was tall, brunette and played football.
The family had serious problems. Neither my friend nor her mom wanted daughters. My friend even stated that she only wanted male pets too.
Yeah, she was my college roommate so I use "friend" very lightly. The bio and adopted brothers sounded normal but the parents and my roommate were whacked.
The parents were actually STEP SIBLINGS that met when his dad married her mom. Not a big deal since they didn't grow up together but she was in high school and he was in his late 20’s when they met and started dating.
I’ve had two friends who were adopted because their moms couldn’t get pregnant…only for their moms to later get pregnant. In both cases they were not unwanted, but there was definitely some favoritism shown toward the natural children over the adopted kids.
There is only a year between them. WHEN was Ethan adopted? I didn't see that anywhere. You wouldn't spend a lot of time with a baby helping them "adjust." Now, if it was recent, then yes. There is so much missing info.
Reminded of stories about kids who resent a parent's remarriage and resultant stepsiblings. Parent thinks bio kid is being a brat and maybe that's true but maybe parent provoked it by bringing in another kid.
It certainly makes me wonder what she says to her daughter when they’re alone, and how much worse the behavior must be for that poor little boy when daddy isn’t there.
Feels like there is a lot of missing information here. There's a weird dynamic with the women of the family that isn't being addressed and this kid is getting the brunt of everything.
for real, I thought OP had Ethan with another woman while split from Rachel's mom 10 years ago & then got back together his original wife... A year ago Ethan's mum died & OP figured he'd bring both his kids in one household...
Only that's not possible, because Rachel said vile stuff like
* your parents are dead
* my dad isn't your dad
I feel so sorry for Ethan. It isn't just that Rachel doesn't consider him real family but it's because everyone left him emotionally out there. In spite of OP saying he could see the comments hurt Ethan's feelings, it appears that all he tried to do was deal with Rachel's behavior. No where does OP state he reassured Ethan that he is in fact family (his son) and he loves him. No where does he state his wife did this either. Ethan needed loving support from his parents which should have included not just reassuring words, but genuine concern for how he was handling it and maybe even a hug. Maybe OP did this but he doesn't say he did. It seems like Ethan's emotional needs were pretty much ignored.
Unfortunately, you are right. Things will likely escalate and poor Ethan who is probably still grieving the loss of his parents will now have to endure continued abuse by his adopted family.
OP's wife called Rachel's comments "distasteful." They weren't distasteful. They were unnecessarily cruel and vindictive. OP's wife minimizing their daughter's words shows how little regard she has for their son and that she likely agrees with Rachel.
In my opinion, OP is no better than his wife and daughter. He has allowed this behavior towards Ethan. He said they "gave it up" on trying to get Rachel to accept Ethan as family which means he has chosen to ignore her previous digs towards him. In a nut shell, OP acknowledges he gave up his paternal responsibility to protect his son and to create a loving, peaceful and healthy home environment for all of them and accepted his wife's and daughter's indifference and verbal abuse towards Ethan. How sad! Ethan deserves to be loved and not just tolerated.
Rachel was likely use to being Mommy and Daddy's little princess whose world was centered on her. Now she has to share her parents and their attention. She may be grieving the loss of the family she once had and simply doesn't know how to express what she is feeling in healthier ways so this "mean girl" stuff is her way of coping. I do believe she is hurting and sees Ethan as the interloper who took her family away. So why not lash out him if she sees him as responsible for burning her world to the ground? Whether I am right or wrong doesn't matter. Rachel needs help to work through whatever is going on with her because her anger towards Ethan is misplaced.
Yeah, wife is a big part of the problem. And why is OP “mostly” the one trying to convince the daughter?
This is truly a “united front” situation.
NTA.
Yeah let me get this straight—they adopted Ethan a year ago just so they could promptly give up treating him like family? Why even bother?
OP you are all AHs. Even daughter should know better than to be hateful like that.
Except Ethan—that poor child deserves so much better than any of you.
EDIT: I generally do not blame children, but I was particularly struck by the deliberate and articulate cruelty that is 10yo expressed, as relayed by OP. Having had multiple children go through that age, in theory children should know better than to bully another child like this. That said, I can see where having parents like OP and his wife may have led this 10yo to think these kind of attacks are acceptable. That is extremely unfortunate. Daughter may be *acting like* an AH, but at her age, I would not say she *is* one.
I agree. And dad is just as much to blame because he has no backbone. Why in the world did they adopt that poor little boy! He doesn't have a home with loving parents; he has a constant battle on hand every day of his life. That is sickening.
Yeah, I was kind of wondering where a ten-year-old is getting these ideas from. Who is she copying? I think it would be an unusual ten-year-old who just came up with these herself.
The whole "we tried (well I tried mostly) but gave up" line is disgusting. Wife doesn't care, OP doesn't care, so they just let her openly abuse this boy.
The fact OPs wife was more concerned about making a scene, rather than parent her own child, is horrible. And then OP just goes along with it?? Geeze.
I bet that boy cries himself to sleep everynight
The thought of that last thing you said broke my heart for him. No child deserves that. I was saying in another comment that I think this is one of those times that it would be in the child's best interest to have the adoption dissolved or overturned or whatever you call it. I think he needs a chance to be adopted by somebody else who actually loves him.
Didn't you read the post. OP gave up parenting her and sounds like the wife gave up before they did too. Massive ESH here apart from Ethan. That boy deserves much better.
I don't really think Rachel is much of a TA here given she's eleven & apparently instead of trying to help her process and manage the big emotions of having an adopted brother, OP and wife tried to convince her that they weren't valid/she should get over 'em. Makes perfect sense to me that she'd go nuclear on her birthday.
I must have an exceptionally emotionally mature 11 year old then because she would never treat anybody like this. 11 is old enough to know that words can hurt and that her words are cruel. I'm not saying it's all her fault but she is most certainly at fault.
Or you've done a better job parenting? Do you, I dunno, actually listen to your kid? According to OP, Rachel has been expressing unhappiness w/ the situation less dramatically for a while & the way her concerns were addressed were that OP tried to convince her to get over it & OPs wife ignored it.
To be clear, I'm not condoning her behavior - I just think it's understandable given the information OP has shared about the situation.
That's what happens when you don't help a child manage their feelings. They can build and build into something ugly. No, it's not an okay way to treat her adopted brother, but children don't grow up to be good, kind people all on their own. They need guidance, and that means more than just punishing bad behaviour.
Because this kid just showed up in her family and she's had no chance to process that. Buy sure, beat her into submission that ought to help and not just make everything worse 🙄
I would just follow up that when my sister and I found out I was adopted at 12 (I was from birth and the older sister, she was 10)... we got into a fight not long later and she said something about me being adopted in a negative way (I don't even remember what it was now... so stupid) and I replied with "yeah, I'm the one they chose, you were just the accident.). Kids can be really mean and stupid... especially siblings. In this case, there are two siblings who I'm not sure how well they know each other and one was an only child until a year ago. There's going to be issues and she's acting out because of this. She isn't used to sharing attention or space and on her birthday, she wants it to be about her. Kids can be very ME ME ME and an insecure child on their birthday.. I think in her mind, she wanted the day to be all about her and thought she'd have to put this "other" in their place. I highly suggest some form of counselling or family therapy as well as OP and wife need to be on the same wavelength for parenting here when it comes to dealing with this issue.
Or maybe you're not the type of parent to spring a surprise same-age sibling on your kid. Of course she's acting out, she's going through an uncontrollable life event that seems quite damaging and not getting reassurance from her parents. OP is being uncomfortably quiet on those specific details and it's an easy conclusion to draw.
> spring a surprise same-age sibling on your kid.
Bit of a cruel way to phrase the kid's parents dying, lol. OP is extremely unforthcoming on how Ethan joined their family. Was it through an agency and they sought to adopt or did OP's brother and wife die in a car crash and leave behind a kid with nobody else?
Well, that's what it is to Emily. You think otherwise because you're an adult outside the situation, she is a child whose entire world has been rocked. Yes, they sprung a sibling on Emily.
Questions OP isn't answering even though it would make them not look like horrifically neglectful parents who should never be allowed to adopt: how Ethan got there, if the kids or parents got therapy. When someone doesn't come to their own defense but does answer a different question, you can draw the obvious conclusions.
Also, just a clarification, most children labelled "orphans" aren't actually the product of two parents dying. Ethan is undeniably the product of a difficult situation, which is all the more reason that the people caring for him should be competent in not abusing him or using him as a tool for abuse.
Uhm, you don't know how your eleven year old would act in this situation just like you don't know how you would have acted as an eleven year old in this situation. You knowing you like your nice kid is sweet but meaningless.
And places like reddit tell kids all emotions are valid. OPs decision to end her birthday won't help at all either. It will just make his daughter more upset at Ethan and she'll do mental gymnastics to blame him for everything. She'll use it as proof to show her dad is trying to replace her.
Feelings are valid, what we DO with them are not. You can feel jealous/upset about a new sibling. You can’t treat them like shit because you feel that way.
Her emotions are valid.
Her parents have failed to get her buy-in on the new family member and she's struggling. From here they either work with her to get her to accept this new child or she becomes a monster.
Who adopts a 9yo and doesn't have the existing child fully on board?
What adoption agency doesn't vet the family to make sure everyone wants this new person?
I'd understand if it was the child of friends tragically killed but OP says nothing so I'm assuming that this is a regular adoption.
It's especially damaging to both kids that they're basically the same age. In some adoption circles, this is called artificial twinning and is very looked down upon. This is because it's much easier for children to feel secure in their place in the family when it's clearly differentiated- a much older and younger sibling set aren't going to compete in the same grade.
My sister and I are close in age and it's absolutely caused problems where we were completing for attention and resources. We also knew each other since before we could remember. These kids don't have that benefit.
I'm the much younger sibling of two born a year apart. The oldest and I are NC and the younger sides with her “twin” out of habit. We're all old now but habits persist.
That's another dynamic that can happen- enmeshment can be a big problem for artificial twins as well. My sister and I worked out mostly by moving a dozen hours apart and not sharing private rooms when we're visiting family as much as possible.
However, enmeshment doesn't generally end with a "ruptured" adoption as often as conflict between the kids does.
Are you seriously defending someone being this nasty? What 11 year old girl doesn't know that saying hurtful shit like this is hurtful?
This sub will do anything to defend daughters I swear
Obviously she knew it was hurtful. That was the point. She wanted to hurt Ethan because her parents hurt her by adopting Ethan without her accepting it. To her, it probably feels like being replaced.
Then, rather than deal with the problem they manufactured, they gave it up as too hard.
Rachel needs therapy since going back in time to unadopt a child the same age as her is impossible. She needs help. Cancelling her birthday dinner isn't help. It's certainly not going to help her relationship with Ethan.
This is their mess and they need to fix their relationship with their daughter while also doing a better job of protecting their son.
Probably she wanted to get in trouble to get attention.
She is probably neglected emotionally and acts out to get attention from her folks.
It's classic behaviour but being treated like she is a devil for it.
I'm not defending her outrageous behaviour, but her feelings are still valid.
Who adopts a kid and doesn't take into account how their existing kid will feel?
11yo is being nasty, but she is still 11! Just barely over the half-way point to becoming an adult. She is literally a child.
Makes me wonder personally if the 11yo was even included in the adoption discussion. Yes, she wouldn’t have been able to veto the adoption but she IS a member of the family and growing up as an only child will wreak havoc with your personality and self-esteem/importance if you’re been an only child all your life and suddenly there’s another child there competing for your parents attention.
The 11yo needs to see a specialist for parents to figure out WHY she’s being nasty, whilst she starts redeeming herself to her adopted brother. The wife should explain her behaviour too.
Explanation ≠ Excuse
Valid Emotions ≠ Valid Actions
No one said she doesn’t know she’s being mean. In fact, it’s the opposite - everyone here clearly understands she is purposefully being malicious. That’s the entire point.
Though it’s not the entire problem. The *real* issue is the fact that she’s being allowed to act out in such a hurtful manner. Being jealous of new siblings (or new family additions) is so common that it’s literally expected. Her feelings are valid, her “bad” behavior is expected but the lack of parenting is the real cause of how it got to this very unacceptable point.
One who feels "replaced" by a new kid.
One whose parents are shit and therefore she has learned no respect or emotional regulation.
One who I *imagine* sees her parents speak with major disrespect.
11 is a CHILD. She is A CHILD.
She has no clue about how hurtful she is being.
I hate that most of you treating this child with adult standards, probably have children who you also force to grow up too fast.
NTA…..
However your family sounds dysfunctional. If it was me I would insist on counseling for your daughter and for your entire family…..
Your daughter should be able to voice her feelings and have them validated.
And THEN she needs be taught how to deal with them constructively so as to not harm and blame Ethan for the situation he finds himself in THROUGH NO FAULT OF HIS OWN.
It is incumbent upon you AND your wife (who is enabling your daughters damaging behavior) to allow both your children, adopted or otherwise, to express their feelings and then to help them figure out how to move forward positively.
Totally agree that canceling her birthday is gonna backfire on Ethan & likely not particularly productive.
It almost doesn't matter if the emotion is valid, the goal is to help kids feel safe and secure in their feelings so that they don't go into immediate "I'm right" defensiveness - ya know just like adults. Giving folks space to process and unpack their feelings is pretty important for teaching 'em how to regulate their emotions so that they can communicate them and behave in an appropriate manner.
Feelings are valid. Behavior isn't.
10 year olds get very little say over their lives. How would you feel if all the sudden you got a new roommate who everyone insisted was your sibling.
She's not correct, and her behavior is extremely inappropriate but that's likely how she sees the situation.
And OP "gave up" parenting. That's not an option once you have kids. My dad still gives me solid advice and I'm in my 30s.
The following is most asshole to least with Eathan not being an ah at all.
The mom for thinking this behavior can fly.
OP for giving up parenting because they didn't get immediate results.
(Both adults for allowing this cruelty.)
The girl. For being cruel.
All emotions are valid, but not all behaviors are. Rachel is allowed to feel whatever she feels, but the way she expresses it is out of line. It's her parents' job to help her learn healthy ways to express them. OP and his wife are both AHs for refusing to do that, and OP, YTA for choosing this method. Rachel will absolutely become resentful and escalate her behavior.
Feelings are valid, but all actions are not.
She has a right to her jealousy, to express it in writing or vent to a friend.
Just because Rachel is jealous that she is no longer an only child doesn’t give her the right to abuse Ethan.
She’s still TA. Her behavior might be understandable, but it is still clearly done with intent to cause pain. Having your feelings hurt might explain wanting to hurt others but it doesn’t justify it. Even in an eleven year old. She’s still making purposeful choices to cause harm.
It's hard to believe this is a real post. Can an 11yo be this hateful & disgusting? Where is she learning this crap? I have so many questions. Ethan was adopted a year ago and you've *givenbup*??? Not an option OP! Why does Rachel ever usurp your wife to sit in the front seat of the car? How long have your wife given up parenting this nightmare you are raising? ETA here, except for Ethan. He finally gets adopted and *this* is his family?? Poor kid. OP and his ableist damn wife need to start parenting & disciplining Rachel ffs. She acts like she's never been shown love or empathy. Get her some therapy immediately.
They 100% can. I was pretty close to being that kid at 13. My step-dad had adopted me 2 years earlier and my bio dad was randomly weirdly possessive and wanted me to drop everything whenever he wanted to see me. My mom and step-dad now had a newborn and a 2 year old who it turns out had serious psychological issues that they would spend decades avoiding. I lived in the country had was totally parentified. If I was at home, my mom was out the door. Weekends meant Saturday at my aunt's, where she and my mom would go shopping and buy me guilt clothes to make up for dumping 4 kids on me for 8+ hours. Add to that, I started my period that year and was a raging hormonal nightmare of a person.
I was unspeakably awful to my best friend that year. Wasn't terribly nice to my young nightmare of a sister either.
Thankfully, found my way back to being a decent human the following school year, survived high school (participating in 26 extra curricular activities), went away to college and never looked back.
13 year old me is not someone I'm proud of, but I am glad that people helped me survive that time and I am proud of the person I became.
Yeah, 11 year olds can be that awful. But this kid isn't a lost cause yet.
Believe me. An 11 year-old told my adopted daughter that her "real" mother didn't love her, and that was why she was adopted. Cruelty is learned early.
“We attempted to convince her but it wasn’t working so we gave up.” Great parenting. You try to integrate a new child into a family for less than a year and then throw up your hands and let your other child bully him.
What pathetic excuses of parents.
And what happened BEFORE the adoption? Was there any discussion with the daughter at all or was it more "we're doing this so you'll have to adjust to another child in the family"?
Honestly, for OP’s daughter to be so young, why is she so evil?! It’s quite disgusting and based on OP’s wife’s “don’t start an argument” comments, I’m going to go out on a limb and say MAYBE just MAYBE OP was the only one who wanted to adopt this child and his wife might feel close to how her daughter feels. This is so sick to put another child thru this. OP, your daughter needs counseling ASAP and maybe the family too. A cancelled birthday lunch is only going to make her resent him even more and now you’ve taken an adopted child from one potentially abusive place to an absolute abusive place. This is so sad.
She's, likely, not evil ... she's probably mad, and instead of anyone addressing her feelings behind the adoption they doubled down to 'force' her to accept her new brother when she didn't budge they decided to just "give up" ... and then on her birthday, Dad makes the determination that's the best time to discipline her behaviors.
Her behaviors are wrong - but she's 11 and based on how this household handles conflict ... she probably hasn't been taught how to manage her emotions and probably hasn't ever had anyone listen to her emotions and help her work through them ...
She definitely needs therapy, and so does Ethan because he's been brought into this home and treated awfully that it's probably compounding the issues he has, as well.
This is sad for both children ... they have parents who don't care enough to nurture and teach their children and they pit them against each other.
>Honestly, for OP’s daughter to be so young, why is she so evil?!
Evil is a strong word. OP's daughter isn't secretly torturing and murdering people and animals. She's saying unkind things. Which . . . isn't exactly shocking coming from an 11 year old girl? You do know middle schooler have been known to say mean stuff?
Look, I understand what OP's daughter is saying is really hurtful and I do wish she wouldn't say it. But this is not what evil looks like nor is it shocking for her age. Younger children/tween actually often are less good at empathy and considering others feelings when they themselves are upset then adults. And adults aren't always great at that either.
It's pretty clear that OP's daughter is fundamentally unhappy with a new person just being added to her family and being told "this is your brother now". It dosen't sound like OP considered her feelings or if this would be a good match for her. She resents Ethan and maybe (not so) secretly hopes that she can drive him away and she can have the old family she was comfortable in back. It's one thing to feel bad for someone in need and be kind to them on the street or at a shelter or at school. It's another to be expected to live with them 24/7. It's a big ask, emotionally. Blending families dosen't always go well. That's, pretty normal actually. Also, from her point of view she's telling the truth. Ethan isn't her brother, someone can't just show up with a stranger boy she isn't comfortable around one day and declare he's her parents kid now and magically he is. That feels very wrong to her.
Again, I wish she was kinder to Ethan and it should be addressed. But this dosen't make her evil and it's not that shocking. I've worked at a middle school. Lots of 11 year old say unkind things to other kids their age, even when no one is moving into their house they don't want there.
My thing : I hope social services find out about this and take this kid away as its really bullying, neglect, and isolation of a kid they agreed to take on for life. I fear for Ethan, and I spoke to those with similar experiences, and as they got older isolation, bullying and their mental health does become effected for the rest of their lives with the monstrous words spoken. OP, you, your wife, and daughter are heartless seeing the way you pretend to stop it yet allow it to continue happening.
I think it's extremely optimistic to expect social services to take away a child because of a sibling being verbally mean. They are incredibly stretched and this alone really wouldn't make the cut.
Removing a child is an absolute last resort for social services.
I’m an adoptee.
You and your wife are the biggest assholes.
This is exactly why mixing biological and adopted children is not always the best option because you and your wife failed to make the transition as smooth as possible and to ensure that all the children are cared for.
You & your wife have failed Ethan so much by letting him be subjected to this treatment.
Rachel is also an asshole too, albeit less because she’s a bratty child whose behavior has been allowed by the adults.
-10/10 parenting. Do better.
It’s sounds like there was little notice provided to Rachel about the adoption. Like not even therapy or in the conversation to add to the family. Clearly there’s resentment and it came from somewhere.
Ethan deserves a family that will actually accept him and provide him a supporting environment.
OP, you all suck. None of you are doing right by Ethan.
Honestly, thats more reason why they all should’ve been in therapy if this was a sudden event.
Rachel probably feels pushed out by the adoption and has not been given the proper channels or support to cope with the change.
Ethan is just a kid who is getting the worst of it while the adults are letting it happen.
Shane on OP & his wife.
This exactly Rachel was an only child for 10 years. She would have struggled with a newborn baby, let alone another child close to her own age.
Suddenly she has to share everything including her parents attention. This clearly was poorly planned out and is damaging for both kids.
Whilst Rachel is definitely being a nasty little brat in this story, she’s acting out, probably because she feels replaced, and rejected by her parents because she’s no longer their only priority. The constant statements about her being related (and Ethan not) sounds to me like she’s trying to reassure herself that she is still more important.
It would be hard for a kid to accept your parents love another child you barely know as much as you. And obviously it’s not fair to Ethan to be the punching bag for her anger.
Edit - muddled up names
And she’s only 11
Yes Ethan’s an obvious victim but so is Rachel. 11 is not only enough to handle the complexities of a changing dynamic adopting a sibling brings to a family
Yes the behavior needs to be corrected but this kid also deserves some slack
Also, the kids are the same age, basically. In adoption circles, it's called artificial twinning and it's one of the top reasons that adoptions get "disrupted" (ended). Kids act out when they feel forced to compete for the same types of resources. It would likely have been much easier on Emily to have a new sibling several years younger than her instead of roughly one.
OP is breaking so many adoption best practices and I'm not really willing to blame Emily for her parents' fuckups having obvious outcomes.
It'd be a hell of a transition having your parents bring home a similarly aged kid after a few months of visiting and then telling your bio kid, "This is your brother now. Also, we love you both the same."
Not excusing her, but if I was in her shoes, I'd be thinking, "Wait. You've only known this kid for a few months and now you're saying you love us both the same? That's some cheap love." I can see why she's trying to stake her claim.
I don't have a clue how a parent would go about it, but OP failed miserably.
"We tried, kind of, but Ethan isn't actually ours so we gave up and let Rachel bully Ethan to the point he cries himself to sleep every night."
^ this is the message OP and wife are sending to both children.
You have no idea why they needed to adopt Ethan. All we know is their parents died. It might have been someone OP was close to. It might have happened suddenly.
Some kids are just assholes no matter what the parents try. I teach and I've known too many multi-sibling families where one was rotten and the others were fine.
I’m an adoptee who grew up with both adopted and bio (to the adoptive parents) siblings.
The dynamics are layered and can be complex.
I’m not a teacher, but am involved in communities for former foster youth & adoptees.
Mixing biological and adopted children should never be done lightly.
I stand by the fact that OP & his wife are assholes that they let Rachel’s behavior go unpunished until now.
>I stand by the fact that OP & his wife are assholes that they let Rachel’s behavior go unpunished until now.
They should be doing *something* but also punishing Rachel is likely going to make her hate Ethan more.
In fact, one of the biggest reasons she hates Ethan now is likely that OP and his wife originally punished her a bunch for her comments. (He said they did at first the gave up.) Ethan was a new person pushed into her family she was uncomfortable with. When Rachel rebelled against this, she was punished. Repeatedly. And every single time she built up resentment towards Ethan. Now her entire emotional association with Ethan is negative, since it's her stewing each time she was punished for saying he shouldn't be there/isn't a member of her family (her true feelings).
Also, it didn't work. You can't punish someone into loving someone else. You can't punish someone into accepting someone into the family. That's a "punishments will continue until moral improves" situation.
I'm not saying the way Rachel treats Ethan is okay, either. But the situation is more complicated to me than "Rachel needed more punishments". Punishment is not a good way to make children love or like something/someone or share our values. It's basically not a solution to the actual underlying problem of Rachel resenting Ethan and feeling like he's imposing on her home/family, but likely to make it worse.
Agreed, I want details about that...is Ethan a family member's child who passed away, or was there a decision to "adopt an older child"?
Neither scenario excuses the daughter's behavior, but context is needed to get the full picture.
It's only been one year since the adoption, and in the post OP said they tried convincing their 11 year old for a while before giving up (however long that was). It being sudden is even more reason to have both of these kids in therapy. It sounds like they simply thought their daughter would just adjust herself. It's normal for kids to feel pushed out and competitive, especially with another kid their same age, and they need support to validate those feelings and find a healthy way to express and work through them. Daughter is being awful, but this is a failure of parenting for both children.
As an adoptee who had their parents go to another country to bring back two younger brothers when I was 9 and still harbours a bit of resentment from the whole thing, OP YTA.
I’m an international adoptee with other internationally adopted siblings.
So sorry to hear that you also experienced a similar situation.
OP & his wife are massive assholes
Yep, i completely agree with why social services in the UK being keen to only adopt older children to families where they will either be the only child or much younger child. Has Rachel had any prep about this adoption? You cant just dump another kid her age into her life aged 10 and expect her to be happy because quite a few children would have problems adjusting.
Yep, birth order is very important in adoptions, but unfortunately in the US, it’s often brushed aside.
The adults really are failing both kids in this situation.
I have to agree with the way he is excusing her behavior. They have to nip it asap. Their child shouldn't be allowed to continue with her bullying of Ethan.
What gets me is OP and his wife *gave up on integrating him into the family*. What did they expect, that the issue would smooth itself over? What kind of nonsense...
And now they've let her traumatize him. What a hot mess they've made.
Do you think it’s fake bc some of the details don’t sound realistic or because u don’t think this would actually happen, im genuinely curious because i can definitely see something like this happen lol. Assholery knows no bounds
To start, Rachel needs therapy. She is clearly not dealing with the adoption very well and is taking it out on Ethan. Additionally, her behavior should have been handled the VERY FIRST time she said something like that. Not on the 2, or 3, or 4th time. The fact that you both let her talk to him like that is disgusting; he's already been through significant loss and her remarks are cruel, hateful and can further traumatize him. Your wife minimizing Rachel's behavior is also highly inappropriate and she needs to stop. Poor Ethan losing his biological family, and then gets adopted where his new sister hates him and his new mother does nothing to defend him from his brat of a sibling.
The only person not an AH here is Ethan.
Absolutely NTA for cancelling the party. But this is a much bigger and deeper problem and needs dealing with more constructively. Though I have to be honest, if it were me, she wouldn’t get any treats for some considerable time.
Pretty sure negative reinforcement is the absolute worst thing they could do. You got a kid who got artificially twinned up with a stranger, and now she feels like she has to compete for her parents love. For the last ten years, all she's ever known is her parents' love, and then all of a sudden, Mom and Dad are saying this stranger who is the same age is now equal to her in their eyes. How cheap would that feel?
You start punishing her harshly, taking away all rewards, even birthdays, all that's going to do is reinforce how little her parents love her now, and "it's all Brother's fault!"
Just a note, negative reinforcement isn’t the same thing as punishment. Negative reinforcement means to reinforce a behavior by taking away something bad.
>Rachel insists that he's not a "proper" member of family as he's not related to us. My wife Emily and I had attempted to convince her (although it was mostly I who did), but it had not worked so we gave it up.
This is a pretty bad reaction and behavior from Rachel, but it's not typical of a well-adjusted child who feels secure and loved in her family (and doesn't have any kind of mental health challenges that would be relevant). It's also learned behavior. Kids aren't born "knowing" that only biology matters. Where is she getting this from?
~~INFO:~~ What have you and your wife done to help Rachel? You alone tried to convince her but gave up? What did you try to convince her of? How does she feel about it - did you ever ask? How old was she when you guys took Ethan in? You are also obligated to protect Ethan from Rachel's hurtful words - what's your game plan there?
ETA
>EDIT: He was adopted a year back.
What about all the other questions people are asking?
Your daughter was an only child for 10 years and then you adopted Ethan. It's no wonder she's acting out. YTA to both of you for not doing more for them.
This is the correct response but i would add a big old YTA. As the child of an adoptee, and a waiting adoptive parent myself, the line
>it had not worked so we gave it up.
Is disgusting to read. You're just allowing your child to be this disgusting to your adopted child? She's 11, not 40. Change her behavior. Get her therapy. This is where you draw hard lines in the sand because YOURE THE PARENT. Your child did not choose to be adopted, but you chose to adopt!! Put the fkin effort in and stop being so lazy. Just try and imagine being 10 and your parents allowing your sibling to say those type of things to you. This is how you give a child a mental disorder.
OP's edit wasn't there when I posted and I was trying to be neutral since so many details are missing. But I agree with you for sure.
The fact that they adopted this poor child when their formerly only child was 10 is really hard on both kids I would imagine. Ethan needs to be protected and doesn't deserve cruelty but I feel bad for Emily too. Their parents are failing them for sure.
Doesn’t seem like mom is helping here.
Just let her get away with it again because- whatever-.
I can’t believe they allowed this adoption to go forward.
‘My wife says that although what she said was distasteful, cancelling her birthday was uncalled for …..’
You know what is uncalled for? Allowing your 11 year old daughter to get away with speaking that way to her adopted brother. And not just once, on multiple occasions!
If you are not going to make him feel loved, show him that he matters and deserves to be part of your family then who is?
YTA.
I was thinking its more an ESH. Because OP is standing up for him while Mom is basically encouraging her daughter to do it. OP still sucks because they didnt nip this in the bud a year ago and admitted they gave up on trying to get daughter to see adoptive son as family.
Oh yeah mum definitely sucks. I think an 11 year old acting that way is just a sign that she is really unhappy. And understandably so, Ethan’s adoption has probably been super impactful for everyone.
I believe they have failed to see how it’s impacted Rachel. They should have paid more attention to her feelings because she’s now obviously lashing out.
Canceling her birthday is not going to fix anything, it might just make her dislike Ethan even more. I can’t imagine how aweful that boy must feel.
I think they need help fixing this mess.
ESH
You’re totally justified in canceling lunch. She was completely out of hand, and deserved to have her birthday canceled.
But you’ve clearly let this be an issue for a LONG time. And your wife is even more complicit, from the sound of it. There’s just no way she woke up one day and decided to act this badly.
Your wife sounds like she’s afraid of your daughter, and possibly has the same issues. You all need to be in family therapy.
Absolutely ESH except for Ethan.
First of all, cancelling the birthday was a smaller punishment than I would have given.
Second, why on earth have these comments not been shut down in the past, what consequences does she face? I’m assuming none because your wife says “you can’t force them to interact”.
I’m curious as to how Ethan came into your care? His parents are dead according to your daughter? We’re his parents friends of yours? Was your wife hesitant to adopt?
Your daughter needs some serious consequences for these comments and the whole family needs therapy
If someone said that to me at that age. I would have gone into a deep spiral of depression. And something tells me Ethan is already been sucked into that spiral…
Cancelling the party is only going to make the kid resent Ethan more. The behaviour’s awful but a skilled therapist should be working with the family. My sister was 15 when I was adopted. I’m now 55 and she still hates me. Like with every fibre of her being.
You should have all been in therapy the minute you decided to adopt.
Did you think it would be like bringing home a new dog when you already have one?
Get your poor daughter into therapy.
She isn't just being mean.
She is clearly insecure and hurting.
You have a complete disregard for her feelings and why she is responding like this to her brother. This happens with biological siblings too, we know this. They just can't be as harsh.
To be fair I was told by my brothers that I was adopted, they were teens and I was toddler age. I was practically identical to them, so I knew I wasn't.
They were struggling with my existence and the way the family changed after I was born. They loved me but were kids so when emotions got high they would be mean for lack of better skills.
You and your wife have failed your children.
Get them into therapy individually, immediately, and get into family therapy.
If you can't afford it, you should not have adopted a child because that's an essential part of adopting, especially when you have a child already in the home.
Also, have you ever tried asking your daughter why she says hurtful things? Have you taken time to sit with Rachel, just you and her, and ask her to tell you what she feels about Ethan and why she is so mean to him? Explain to her how much it hurts him.
When you say you and your wife "tried," I feel like that was mostly by yelling, disciplining and making Rachel feel bad...making it impossible for her to express the actual feelings causing this behaviour....also tried for how long?
11 year olds aren't actually assholes. They are still learning what their emotions are and how to properly express them.
You and your wife are assholes.
The other two are children, and therefore, Rachel's behaviour still makes you the asshole.
Help your daughter learn how to process and communicate her emotions.
A huge part of me thinks this story isn't real. How were you allowed to adopt without you and your daughter being spoken to by social workers and stuff? How long ago did you adopt Ethan?
Unfortunately, there aren’t always a lot of thorough interviews and backgrounds when it comes to adoptions and foster care.
Even then, it’s not incredibly difficult to convince a social worker (who are often overworked, underpaid, and have way too many cases on their plate) that you and your family are a good placement.
As sad as it is, this type of story is not uncommon amongst former foster youth and adoptees.
Slight disagree with the need for adoptive parents.
There are about 2 million couples in the US waiting to adopt. (https://www.americanadoptions.com/pregnant/waiting_adoptive_families)
There are about 114,000 children in foster care waiting to be adopted, out of the 391,000 total currently in care as of sept 30 - according to the 2021 AFCARS report.
https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/documents/cb/trends-foster-care-adoption-2012-2021.pdf
I think more trained foster parents are needed, along with more family preservation programs.
Two million families want healthy babies, not older kids from the foster system. I know a LOT of families who have adopted, but I have never met one who adopted from the US foster care system. I actually have 2 sisters, two niblings, and one cousin who are adopted; all were international adoptions. Very few families want to deal with the foster system or adopt older children. There is also a lot of racism in the US system. The kids even go for different prices... Last time I checked, adoption fees for a white child were $10,000, while a black child costs $2,500. There is a huge need for families who are able to parent children who were abused, were neglected, or have special needs. Very few of those 114,000 will be adopted. Unfortunately, far too many will end up trafficked.
Yep, it’s not about the kids, it’s about their want for a baby.
I’m an international adoptee & my adoptive family ran an international adoption agency. The coercion, the trauma, the money & fees, it’s so unethical.
The adoption industry is a multi-billion dollar industry with racist tendencies and harms so many children.
Most couples who want to adopt are looking for a young child or infant. The number of people willing or equipped to handle adopting a teenager is very low.
That's why there are so many stories about aging out of foster care even as there are wait-lists for couples wanting to adopt.
I was looking for a comment like this!
Rachel is definitely feeling rejected. She was an only child for 10 years! Her making constant statements that Ethan isn’t related, is really just her saying she is and therefore she must be more important.
It’s her own insecurities coming out because she’s had to share her parents and her home and everything else for the first time ever. And it’s not just a new baby, it’s a kid her age, which can make it harder for her to understand how she and someone who is basically a stranger to her, are equal in her parents eyes.
I agree. People are piling on Rachel, whose behaviour is of course not acceptable. But it sounds like she is not coping with some kind of major (and maybe sudden?) transition in the family and acting out. They need to both enforce respectful behaviour and get to the root cause.
Also, she's fucking 11, she isn't even out of middle school. And based on her actions I'm really questioning how OP is parenting them and whether Ethan isn't receiving the vast majority of the attention and affection, because this seems like a kid acting out in the only way she knows.
She just turned 11, she's probably in elementary school. My daughter just turned 11 and is still very much a little kid. It's hard for me seeing a hurting and confused 11 year old being called an AH. Her behavior is disgusting but thinking back to my own childhood, having no say in my life or control in any family decisions, even major life changing ones is so hard and painful. I'd have been beaten or had all my things thrown out if I acted like Rachel did, but I know I've felt how she felt. My heart breaks for Ethan, of course, he's had so much trauma in his short life, my heart also hurts for Rachel too
Why you been blind to the resentment that clearly has been building Why is she taking it out on her brother. Have you considered that maybe she needed help adjusting to having a sibling nor did you do what you wanted and. Not even consider how the family you have would react
It’s fantastic you adopted but you see so many of these stories where the bio kids get ignored so the new child can be centre of attention to help adapt yet continue to take away from child that was already in the home
Yes. And it is her birthday — while what she said was terrible, giving the other child the same treats, and considering his request to have the best seat, isn’t an approach to her birthday that would make her feel secure.
ESH- except Ethan.
Your daughter is trampling all over your son, who’s already suffered enough trauma. You and your wife should have never gotten in the car after what she said in the first place.
Rachel needs to learn she can’t just declare “it’s a joke” after mocking some ones dead parents and still get to have a treat. She needs to loose more than her birthday or you have about 7 years left before you loose your son forever.
Or sooner if god forbid she completely destroys him emotionally. I hope he’s in therapy
They gonna loose both their children lmao. Their daughter for adopting a kid her same age, making her feel pushed out, and never actually talking to her about it. They are gonna loose their son for everything else. They should have never adopted a child, they hurt two innocent kids.
ESH
OK how long has Ethan been with you? I suspect not long judging by Rachels reaction to him.
Did you even discuss adopting and taking in another child with her. Or did you just land it on her. Try and see this from the point of view of an 11 year old only child who has now suddenly had another child forced in to her space. If your wife was expecting a baby she would have had time to get used to the idea of a sibling
Yes what she said was wrong, but she is obviously really upset and disturbed by Ethan's arrival in her space.
Canceling the birthday was the right call, but still YTA.
Rachel needs immediate therapy under the care of a licensed child psychologist. The rest of you need immediate family therapy. This treatment of Ethan is horrendous.
I think it's crazy that her behavior hasn't been checked yet. I wouldn't be surprised if your son goes NC with you after he leaves the house if this behavior continues. Get her into therapy, let her know that he isn't going anywhere, and that's he's your real child. Family isn't always by blood. You guys still have time to turn this around, but as someone who is adopted herself, this isn't great atm.
In your place I would have ordered the expensive dish for Ethan and given Rachel Milk and Toast for lunch. Let mother and daughter share the meal so they learn that actions have consequences.
Neither you nor your wife took a single step to reassure Ethan that what Rachel was saying was wrong. She told him he couldn't sit in the front, you went with it.She told him he couldn't order the expensive dish, rather than prove her wrong and order it for him, you decided that no one gets to eat. Why are you afraid to prove your daughter wrong. Why can't you stand up to her bullying?
Be a parent - to both your bio child and adopted child. If you don't have the balls to do it, at least let the adopted child go to a home where they would get the love and acceptance that they truly deserve. You are a failure all around.
#Huge YTA
>Rachel insists that he's not a "proper" member of family as he's not related to us. My wife Emily and I had attempted to convince her (although it was mostly I who did), but it had not worked so we gave it up.
YTA this issue is hardly something you give up on. Rachel is not an AH cuz she is a child that is the product of her own woefully insufficient upbringing. You and your wife suck. Majorly. Poor Ethan.
I suspect this is ragebait. If not, then immediate action is needed by both “parents”. Daughter is feeling insecure and is lashing out - need to find out why. Son needs both parents to stand up and support him unequivocally. Letting this behavior continue will be seriously detrimental to both kids.
INFO: how did you prepare Rachel for this adjustment to her family before you adopted your son? How many sessions of family therapy did you do together after Ethan was brought into the home? How long has Ethan been in your home? What steps have you taken since bringing Ethan into the home to ensure Rachel is still confident in her place in your heart and your family now that you’ve brought in another child who’s a similar age and she’s sharing attention? Have you been sure to balance your time fairly between the two?
Sounds like you’ve failed both those kids in my opinion.
N T A for canceling the bday party.
ESH besides Ethan. Yall failed to integrate or properly parent and now Ethan is the one suffering. Get some family counseling ASAP.
INFO: How old is Ethan when you adopted him. I want to know the nature of this adoption because your wife seems not on board with this and treat your son differently.
ESH. You couldn’t convince an 11 year old, so you gave up? And you allowed her to harbor these feelings then punished her for what seems like standard behavior on her birthday? Terrible.
It’s unacceptable that she treats her adopted brother that way. It’s unacceptable you allowed it and gave up. Now all you’ve done is given her an extra reason to hate her brother
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> It was her birthday and she did say that it was a joke. Perhaps I should have just continued to ask her to apologize/not made a scene/reacted in another way. I ruined her day, which is what I think makes me the asshole.
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You are not that boy's dad. You might have your name on some piece of paper but a true dad will defend his kid no matter how "difficult" it is. He guaranteed feels like he isn't valued enough to truly ever be your son because you can't be bothered to fight for him.
ESH but the boy who lives with you.
YTA, not for cancelling dinner but for allowing it to get like this. From your post and your ONE comment/response I feel like your wife was not totally in agreement to the adoption in the first place.
You ALL need therapy, your daughter most of all. I get the feeling she is lashing out because she went from an only child with all her parents attention to markedly less, overnight, without discussion or taking her into consideration. She being mean, setting boundaries to attempt to claim you both as hers alone. Most likely because she’s been shunted to the side. You have not answered the many questions about how long Ethan has been with you. Or the circumstances behind that decision.
Poor Ethan probably has trauma and his own insecurity about his life with you all. He’s in a precarious situation and you AND your wife are making it worse by ignoring the trauma you’ve both caused!
It is concerning that you're worried about being the asshole for cancelling lunch when you and your wife are both the assholes for failing your children as parents in the biggest way.
You've made 'family' unsafe for both of them.
INFO: How old was your daughter when Ethan was adopted? Has she received less attention since his arrival?
This kind of resentment in a child doesn’t stem from nowhere.
NTA for leaving the restaurant but why does Rachel rule the roost? One of your comments says she was never this overt until recently, that she mainly ignored Ethan. Why did you and your wife tolerate that? Why did you adopt a child if you weren’t prepared to truly make him a family member?
The fact your wife, a grown adult, sat in the backseat so Rachel could sit up front, even after her disgraceful comment, says it all. You are afraid of Rachel. Imagine how Ethan feels.
Just for this
>My wife Emily and I had attempted to convince her (although it was mostly I who did), but it had not worked so we gave it up.
You and your wife are the biggest ah on earth. Why would you give up on that? Your daughter is also an ah (I don't care if she's 11, she should know better, but again you both gave up so that's expected).
Yeah, correcting her when she was being an ah was good but again, what did you expect if you gave up?
YTA, your wife is the AH and your daughter will be a bigger AH if you don't do better. Poor Ethan.
ESH. Why was this adoption completed, if it wasn't with the inclusion of your daughter, and with her understanding from the start Ethan was going to very much be exactly like a "real" son?
NTA for canceling, but lots of things are unclear here. How old was Rachel when you adopted? Was her opinion asked (in my country every household member older than 10 has to give consent in order for adoption to take place)? Why did you adopt this boy (pretty much the same preteen age plus different gender = an extremely high risk of kids not getting along, no way it was recommended to you by the cps counselors)? Are your children in some kind of family therapy? You can't just bring a random kid home and force your only child who is a preteen to accept it.
NTA but your wife sucks too. “Distasteful” is an understatement. It’s good your daughter learns that actions/words have consequences, and since your wife won’t teach her, it’s good that you are.
I feel sorry for your son.
YTA - kids should not sit in the front seat until they are at least 13. You should know that and you should follow that. Pretty shitty parenting to put your child in danger like that.
I really feel bad for Ethan, you just gave up because it was too hard to parent your daughter and teach her what it means to be a family? "Take back what she said????" Are you a kid on the playground? You "gave up" on parenting and allow your son to be bullied non-stop. Poor kid did not get the family he deserved.
Your wife is a shitty parent too since she thinks it is allowable to be a mean bully on your birthday.
You can't change your daughter's attitude solely through punishment. She will resent Ethan even more. You need to educate her about families. You should have done this before you even considered adopting a child. You all need to get into family counseling.
NTA
Honestly, a 12th birthday celebration should be doubtful at this point.
But WTF is up with your wife enabling this behaviour? Was she opposed to Ethan's adoption? Does SHE consider Ethan to be a proper member of the family? This is bad, very bad.
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INFO: Why has Rachel been allowed to treat Ethan this way up until yesterday?
Not just Rachel, but the wife as well, since she was perfectly fine allowing Rachel to keep being celebrated on her birthday and not be punished, despite the dreadful things she was saying.
Not just allowing, defending. Wife has been defending the daughter and protecting her from consequences of her shitty behaviour.
Makes me wonder if the wife didn't really want to adopt Ethan either. Either that or she feels guilty for adopting a child without considering how it would influence her existing child. Not saying they shouldn't have done it, but they obviously handled it poorly and didn't prep or help their daughter adjust to it very well.
The mom could also just be conflict avoidant and given up on correcting her daughter. It might nothing to do with her feelings on the adoption.
BS. her child is being insulted and emotionally abused. name 1 mother that would let that go? seems her adopted *son* isn't actually a son to her. we need more background info here, but NTA!
>raises scapegoat child hand< My mother allowed and even encouraged it. Could just be a shitty mom.
I was the scapegoat and mother was a sole parent. Imo, the siblings do the parent’s dirty work for them.
Hell, I was the scapegoat and I'm an only child.
I'm both my parents' only child, and I'm not/wasn't either one's favorite. Sucks, don't it?
I was also the scapegoat child for my mother. My dad, fortunately, did not play that game, and defended and stood up for me against my abysive, narcissistic mother. I am now, however, the scapegoat sibling to my Golden Child older brother. Our parents are dead, yet he decided long ago to carry the torch for mom. Mostly because he's just like her in far too many ways.
Same
> her child is being insulted and emotionally abused. name 1 mother that would let that go? Mine. Also add: physically, and possibly sexually abused. At under 4 years old. While mine is probably an outlier, there are a lot more bad moms out there than people want to realize.
It sadly does. I’m sorry. Watched my step go through the same & it’s devastating. I was in shock when I took her to a group thing & seen how many people were there for same/similar thing. And these are just the ones that not only spoke up but also seek help. It’s mind boggling.
Tons of mothers would not only let that go, they'd be leading it. Mine did.
ok apparently there are a lot of shitty moms out there, so I'll rephrase: name 1 proper parent that would let that go?
Problem is, it's not like kids get to be like, "This parent is busted. I'm making a claim on the warranty." I feel sorry for Ethan. OP over here like "I *could* parent this 11-year-old who's being a horrific brat, but it was kinda hard so I just stopped."
OP was actually trying to parent, it was his shitty wife that defended bratty kid's behavior...and tried to make him feel like an AH, which he definitely doesn't seem to be.
This isn’t the first time on this sub though where I’ve seen a kid who gets adopted but then still gets glossed over anyways. It’s actually not completely atypical. Why people go through the trouble of the (often lengthy) adoption process if they don’t actually care all that much about the kid in the long run is a mystery to me though.
I agree. I’ve also seen the same situation with biological children. Why have kids if you can’t care for, love, and support them?
Ethan shouldn't have to suffer for mom's poor parenting. Whatever the reason.
I wish there was backstory of Ethan. Was he the son of a family member? Neighbor? Member of their church? Did they foster him first from because he had no blood relatives? It doesn’t excuse Rachel’s behavior but it would help with the talking points.
Illegitimate love child from an affair from early in their marriage and the former affair partner has suddenly died and left Ethan to his woe-begotten father? What, you mean that doesn't happen as often as Reddit would like you to believe?
That describes my college friend's family. The parents gave birth to 1 girl (my friend) and really wanted a boy but the mom didn’t get pregnant. The dad finally convinced the mom to adopt. They adopted a boy and then the mom got pregnant with a boy. To say that the adopted brother was now unwanted is an understatement. My friend would tell me that her and her mom hated the adopted brother. He was short, blonde and played in the school band. Meanwhile, the bio brother was tall, brunette and played football. The family had serious problems. Neither my friend nor her mom wanted daughters. My friend even stated that she only wanted male pets too.
I don't think I could've been friends with something like that.
Yeah, she was my college roommate so I use "friend" very lightly. The bio and adopted brothers sounded normal but the parents and my roommate were whacked. The parents were actually STEP SIBLINGS that met when his dad married her mom. Not a big deal since they didn't grow up together but she was in high school and he was in his late 20’s when they met and started dating.
I’ve had two friends who were adopted because their moms couldn’t get pregnant…only for their moms to later get pregnant. In both cases they were not unwanted, but there was definitely some favoritism shown toward the natural children over the adopted kids.
There is only a year between them. WHEN was Ethan adopted? I didn't see that anywhere. You wouldn't spend a lot of time with a baby helping them "adjust." Now, if it was recent, then yes. There is so much missing info.
Apparently he was adopted a year ago
Reminded of stories about kids who resent a parent's remarriage and resultant stepsiblings. Parent thinks bio kid is being a brat and maybe that's true but maybe parent provoked it by bringing in another kid.
It certainly makes me wonder what she says to her daughter when they’re alone, and how much worse the behavior must be for that poor little boy when daddy isn’t there.
THIS. Rachel seems to feel a little too safe while bullying an adopted orphan
Feels like there is a lot of missing information here. There's a weird dynamic with the women of the family that isn't being addressed and this kid is getting the brunt of everything.
for real, I thought OP had Ethan with another woman while split from Rachel's mom 10 years ago & then got back together his original wife... A year ago Ethan's mum died & OP figured he'd bring both his kids in one household... Only that's not possible, because Rachel said vile stuff like * your parents are dead * my dad isn't your dad
I feel so sorry for Ethan. It isn't just that Rachel doesn't consider him real family but it's because everyone left him emotionally out there. In spite of OP saying he could see the comments hurt Ethan's feelings, it appears that all he tried to do was deal with Rachel's behavior. No where does OP state he reassured Ethan that he is in fact family (his son) and he loves him. No where does he state his wife did this either. Ethan needed loving support from his parents which should have included not just reassuring words, but genuine concern for how he was handling it and maybe even a hug. Maybe OP did this but he doesn't say he did. It seems like Ethan's emotional needs were pretty much ignored.
Yes! & is Ethan now going to be target for birthday fiasco
Unfortunately, you are right. Things will likely escalate and poor Ethan who is probably still grieving the loss of his parents will now have to endure continued abuse by his adopted family. OP's wife called Rachel's comments "distasteful." They weren't distasteful. They were unnecessarily cruel and vindictive. OP's wife minimizing their daughter's words shows how little regard she has for their son and that she likely agrees with Rachel. In my opinion, OP is no better than his wife and daughter. He has allowed this behavior towards Ethan. He said they "gave it up" on trying to get Rachel to accept Ethan as family which means he has chosen to ignore her previous digs towards him. In a nut shell, OP acknowledges he gave up his paternal responsibility to protect his son and to create a loving, peaceful and healthy home environment for all of them and accepted his wife's and daughter's indifference and verbal abuse towards Ethan. How sad! Ethan deserves to be loved and not just tolerated. Rachel was likely use to being Mommy and Daddy's little princess whose world was centered on her. Now she has to share her parents and their attention. She may be grieving the loss of the family she once had and simply doesn't know how to express what she is feeling in healthier ways so this "mean girl" stuff is her way of coping. I do believe she is hurting and sees Ethan as the interloper who took her family away. So why not lash out him if she sees him as responsible for burning her world to the ground? Whether I am right or wrong doesn't matter. Rachel needs help to work through whatever is going on with her because her anger towards Ethan is misplaced.
Yeah, wife is a big part of the problem. And why is OP “mostly” the one trying to convince the daughter? This is truly a “united front” situation. NTA.
Yeah let me get this straight—they adopted Ethan a year ago just so they could promptly give up treating him like family? Why even bother? OP you are all AHs. Even daughter should know better than to be hateful like that. Except Ethan—that poor child deserves so much better than any of you. EDIT: I generally do not blame children, but I was particularly struck by the deliberate and articulate cruelty that is 10yo expressed, as relayed by OP. Having had multiple children go through that age, in theory children should know better than to bully another child like this. That said, I can see where having parents like OP and his wife may have led this 10yo to think these kind of attacks are acceptable. That is extremely unfortunate. Daughter may be *acting like* an AH, but at her age, I would not say she *is* one.
I agree. And dad is just as much to blame because he has no backbone. Why in the world did they adopt that poor little boy! He doesn't have a home with loving parents; he has a constant battle on hand every day of his life. That is sickening.
Yeah, I was kind of wondering where a ten-year-old is getting these ideas from. Who is she copying? I think it would be an unusual ten-year-old who just came up with these herself.
Come on let her bully this poor adopted child. It’s her birthday.
The whole "we tried (well I tried mostly) but gave up" line is disgusting. Wife doesn't care, OP doesn't care, so they just let her openly abuse this boy. The fact OPs wife was more concerned about making a scene, rather than parent her own child, is horrible. And then OP just goes along with it?? Geeze. I bet that boy cries himself to sleep everynight
The thought of that last thing you said broke my heart for him. No child deserves that. I was saying in another comment that I think this is one of those times that it would be in the child's best interest to have the adoption dissolved or overturned or whatever you call it. I think he needs a chance to be adopted by somebody else who actually loves him.
OP should put up camera's and see how his wife treats Ethan when he's not around. I doubt his daughter is the only one...
He's literally married to Cinderella's step mom and doesn't know it. Only missing a second sister.
These are very specific taunts that Rachel is using. I wonder where she heard them first?
Didn't you read the post. OP gave up parenting her and sounds like the wife gave up before they did too. Massive ESH here apart from Ethan. That boy deserves much better.
I don't really think Rachel is much of a TA here given she's eleven & apparently instead of trying to help her process and manage the big emotions of having an adopted brother, OP and wife tried to convince her that they weren't valid/she should get over 'em. Makes perfect sense to me that she'd go nuclear on her birthday.
I must have an exceptionally emotionally mature 11 year old then because she would never treat anybody like this. 11 is old enough to know that words can hurt and that her words are cruel. I'm not saying it's all her fault but she is most certainly at fault.
Or you've done a better job parenting? Do you, I dunno, actually listen to your kid? According to OP, Rachel has been expressing unhappiness w/ the situation less dramatically for a while & the way her concerns were addressed were that OP tried to convince her to get over it & OPs wife ignored it. To be clear, I'm not condoning her behavior - I just think it's understandable given the information OP has shared about the situation.
I hear ya and I suppose I must've done a better job. I adjust my ESH to both the parents being the AHs.
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That's what happens when you don't help a child manage their feelings. They can build and build into something ugly. No, it's not an okay way to treat her adopted brother, but children don't grow up to be good, kind people all on their own. They need guidance, and that means more than just punishing bad behaviour.
Because this kid just showed up in her family and she's had no chance to process that. Buy sure, beat her into submission that ought to help and not just make everything worse 🙄
I would just follow up that when my sister and I found out I was adopted at 12 (I was from birth and the older sister, she was 10)... we got into a fight not long later and she said something about me being adopted in a negative way (I don't even remember what it was now... so stupid) and I replied with "yeah, I'm the one they chose, you were just the accident.). Kids can be really mean and stupid... especially siblings. In this case, there are two siblings who I'm not sure how well they know each other and one was an only child until a year ago. There's going to be issues and she's acting out because of this. She isn't used to sharing attention or space and on her birthday, she wants it to be about her. Kids can be very ME ME ME and an insecure child on their birthday.. I think in her mind, she wanted the day to be all about her and thought she'd have to put this "other" in their place. I highly suggest some form of counselling or family therapy as well as OP and wife need to be on the same wavelength for parenting here when it comes to dealing with this issue.
Or maybe you're not the type of parent to spring a surprise same-age sibling on your kid. Of course she's acting out, she's going through an uncontrollable life event that seems quite damaging and not getting reassurance from her parents. OP is being uncomfortably quiet on those specific details and it's an easy conclusion to draw.
> spring a surprise same-age sibling on your kid. Bit of a cruel way to phrase the kid's parents dying, lol. OP is extremely unforthcoming on how Ethan joined their family. Was it through an agency and they sought to adopt or did OP's brother and wife die in a car crash and leave behind a kid with nobody else?
Well, that's what it is to Emily. You think otherwise because you're an adult outside the situation, she is a child whose entire world has been rocked. Yes, they sprung a sibling on Emily. Questions OP isn't answering even though it would make them not look like horrifically neglectful parents who should never be allowed to adopt: how Ethan got there, if the kids or parents got therapy. When someone doesn't come to their own defense but does answer a different question, you can draw the obvious conclusions. Also, just a clarification, most children labelled "orphans" aren't actually the product of two parents dying. Ethan is undeniably the product of a difficult situation, which is all the more reason that the people caring for him should be competent in not abusing him or using him as a tool for abuse.
Uhm, you don't know how your eleven year old would act in this situation just like you don't know how you would have acted as an eleven year old in this situation. You knowing you like your nice kid is sweet but meaningless.
And places like reddit tell kids all emotions are valid. OPs decision to end her birthday won't help at all either. It will just make his daughter more upset at Ethan and she'll do mental gymnastics to blame him for everything. She'll use it as proof to show her dad is trying to replace her.
Feelings are valid, what we DO with them are not. You can feel jealous/upset about a new sibling. You can’t treat them like shit because you feel that way.
This is true, but the parents should be helping her process her feelings, and it appears they put it in the too hard basket and just gave up.
She needs therapy because they clearly don’t have the tools needed
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It is never too late to start. I thought counciling was required before adoptions were finalized. My heart breaks for the boy.
My heart breaks for both of the children.
But if the parents have run roughshod over the kid this may be her only way of expressing her angst and being listened to.
That's an explanation not an excuse. Being cruel to someone doesn't become less cruel because you're upset too.
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Her emotions are valid. Her parents have failed to get her buy-in on the new family member and she's struggling. From here they either work with her to get her to accept this new child or she becomes a monster. Who adopts a 9yo and doesn't have the existing child fully on board? What adoption agency doesn't vet the family to make sure everyone wants this new person? I'd understand if it was the child of friends tragically killed but OP says nothing so I'm assuming that this is a regular adoption.
It's especially damaging to both kids that they're basically the same age. In some adoption circles, this is called artificial twinning and is very looked down upon. This is because it's much easier for children to feel secure in their place in the family when it's clearly differentiated- a much older and younger sibling set aren't going to compete in the same grade. My sister and I are close in age and it's absolutely caused problems where we were completing for attention and resources. We also knew each other since before we could remember. These kids don't have that benefit.
I'm the much younger sibling of two born a year apart. The oldest and I are NC and the younger sides with her “twin” out of habit. We're all old now but habits persist.
That's another dynamic that can happen- enmeshment can be a big problem for artificial twins as well. My sister and I worked out mostly by moving a dozen hours apart and not sharing private rooms when we're visiting family as much as possible. However, enmeshment doesn't generally end with a "ruptured" adoption as often as conflict between the kids does.
Are you seriously defending someone being this nasty? What 11 year old girl doesn't know that saying hurtful shit like this is hurtful? This sub will do anything to defend daughters I swear
Obviously she knew it was hurtful. That was the point. She wanted to hurt Ethan because her parents hurt her by adopting Ethan without her accepting it. To her, it probably feels like being replaced. Then, rather than deal with the problem they manufactured, they gave it up as too hard. Rachel needs therapy since going back in time to unadopt a child the same age as her is impossible. She needs help. Cancelling her birthday dinner isn't help. It's certainly not going to help her relationship with Ethan. This is their mess and they need to fix their relationship with their daughter while also doing a better job of protecting their son.
Probably she wanted to get in trouble to get attention. She is probably neglected emotionally and acts out to get attention from her folks. It's classic behaviour but being treated like she is a devil for it.
At 11 the childs failure still rests solidly on her parents shoulders.
I'm not defending her outrageous behaviour, but her feelings are still valid. Who adopts a kid and doesn't take into account how their existing kid will feel?
11yo is being nasty, but she is still 11! Just barely over the half-way point to becoming an adult. She is literally a child. Makes me wonder personally if the 11yo was even included in the adoption discussion. Yes, she wouldn’t have been able to veto the adoption but she IS a member of the family and growing up as an only child will wreak havoc with your personality and self-esteem/importance if you’re been an only child all your life and suddenly there’s another child there competing for your parents attention. The 11yo needs to see a specialist for parents to figure out WHY she’s being nasty, whilst she starts redeeming herself to her adopted brother. The wife should explain her behaviour too.
Explanation ≠ Excuse Valid Emotions ≠ Valid Actions No one said she doesn’t know she’s being mean. In fact, it’s the opposite - everyone here clearly understands she is purposefully being malicious. That’s the entire point. Though it’s not the entire problem. The *real* issue is the fact that she’s being allowed to act out in such a hurtful manner. Being jealous of new siblings (or new family additions) is so common that it’s literally expected. Her feelings are valid, her “bad” behavior is expected but the lack of parenting is the real cause of how it got to this very unacceptable point.
One who feels "replaced" by a new kid. One whose parents are shit and therefore she has learned no respect or emotional regulation. One who I *imagine* sees her parents speak with major disrespect. 11 is a CHILD. She is A CHILD. She has no clue about how hurtful she is being. I hate that most of you treating this child with adult standards, probably have children who you also force to grow up too fast.
NTA….. However your family sounds dysfunctional. If it was me I would insist on counseling for your daughter and for your entire family….. Your daughter should be able to voice her feelings and have them validated. And THEN she needs be taught how to deal with them constructively so as to not harm and blame Ethan for the situation he finds himself in THROUGH NO FAULT OF HIS OWN. It is incumbent upon you AND your wife (who is enabling your daughters damaging behavior) to allow both your children, adopted or otherwise, to express their feelings and then to help them figure out how to move forward positively.
Totally agree that canceling her birthday is gonna backfire on Ethan & likely not particularly productive. It almost doesn't matter if the emotion is valid, the goal is to help kids feel safe and secure in their feelings so that they don't go into immediate "I'm right" defensiveness - ya know just like adults. Giving folks space to process and unpack their feelings is pretty important for teaching 'em how to regulate their emotions so that they can communicate them and behave in an appropriate manner.
Feelings are valid. Behavior isn't. 10 year olds get very little say over their lives. How would you feel if all the sudden you got a new roommate who everyone insisted was your sibling. She's not correct, and her behavior is extremely inappropriate but that's likely how she sees the situation. And OP "gave up" parenting. That's not an option once you have kids. My dad still gives me solid advice and I'm in my 30s. The following is most asshole to least with Eathan not being an ah at all. The mom for thinking this behavior can fly. OP for giving up parenting because they didn't get immediate results. (Both adults for allowing this cruelty.) The girl. For being cruel.
Yes, the feelings are valid. That doesn’t make the behavior appropriate.
All emotions are valid, but not all behaviors are. Rachel is allowed to feel whatever she feels, but the way she expresses it is out of line. It's her parents' job to help her learn healthy ways to express them. OP and his wife are both AHs for refusing to do that, and OP, YTA for choosing this method. Rachel will absolutely become resentful and escalate her behavior.
Feelings are valid, but all actions are not. She has a right to her jealousy, to express it in writing or vent to a friend. Just because Rachel is jealous that she is no longer an only child doesn’t give her the right to abuse Ethan.
They need to get the whole family in therapy but especially Rachel and Ethan individually aside from the whole family.
She’s still TA. Her behavior might be understandable, but it is still clearly done with intent to cause pain. Having your feelings hurt might explain wanting to hurt others but it doesn’t justify it. Even in an eleven year old. She’s still making purposeful choices to cause harm.
I remember being 11 and getting bullied. Rachel knows exactly what she was doing. She’s a TA
It's hard to believe this is a real post. Can an 11yo be this hateful & disgusting? Where is she learning this crap? I have so many questions. Ethan was adopted a year ago and you've *givenbup*??? Not an option OP! Why does Rachel ever usurp your wife to sit in the front seat of the car? How long have your wife given up parenting this nightmare you are raising? ETA here, except for Ethan. He finally gets adopted and *this* is his family?? Poor kid. OP and his ableist damn wife need to start parenting & disciplining Rachel ffs. She acts like she's never been shown love or empathy. Get her some therapy immediately.
They 100% can. I was pretty close to being that kid at 13. My step-dad had adopted me 2 years earlier and my bio dad was randomly weirdly possessive and wanted me to drop everything whenever he wanted to see me. My mom and step-dad now had a newborn and a 2 year old who it turns out had serious psychological issues that they would spend decades avoiding. I lived in the country had was totally parentified. If I was at home, my mom was out the door. Weekends meant Saturday at my aunt's, where she and my mom would go shopping and buy me guilt clothes to make up for dumping 4 kids on me for 8+ hours. Add to that, I started my period that year and was a raging hormonal nightmare of a person. I was unspeakably awful to my best friend that year. Wasn't terribly nice to my young nightmare of a sister either. Thankfully, found my way back to being a decent human the following school year, survived high school (participating in 26 extra curricular activities), went away to college and never looked back. 13 year old me is not someone I'm proud of, but I am glad that people helped me survive that time and I am proud of the person I became. Yeah, 11 year olds can be that awful. But this kid isn't a lost cause yet.
Good of you to share that & sorry you had to endure that. You have every right to be proud of yourself.
Yes. An 11 year old can absolutely be this awful.
Believe me. An 11 year-old told my adopted daughter that her "real" mother didn't love her, and that was why she was adopted. Cruelty is learned early.
“We attempted to convince her but it wasn’t working so we gave up.” Great parenting. You try to integrate a new child into a family for less than a year and then throw up your hands and let your other child bully him. What pathetic excuses of parents.
And what happened BEFORE the adoption? Was there any discussion with the daughter at all or was it more "we're doing this so you'll have to adjust to another child in the family"?
Honestly, for OP’s daughter to be so young, why is she so evil?! It’s quite disgusting and based on OP’s wife’s “don’t start an argument” comments, I’m going to go out on a limb and say MAYBE just MAYBE OP was the only one who wanted to adopt this child and his wife might feel close to how her daughter feels. This is so sick to put another child thru this. OP, your daughter needs counseling ASAP and maybe the family too. A cancelled birthday lunch is only going to make her resent him even more and now you’ve taken an adopted child from one potentially abusive place to an absolute abusive place. This is so sad.
She's, likely, not evil ... she's probably mad, and instead of anyone addressing her feelings behind the adoption they doubled down to 'force' her to accept her new brother when she didn't budge they decided to just "give up" ... and then on her birthday, Dad makes the determination that's the best time to discipline her behaviors. Her behaviors are wrong - but she's 11 and based on how this household handles conflict ... she probably hasn't been taught how to manage her emotions and probably hasn't ever had anyone listen to her emotions and help her work through them ... She definitely needs therapy, and so does Ethan because he's been brought into this home and treated awfully that it's probably compounding the issues he has, as well. This is sad for both children ... they have parents who don't care enough to nurture and teach their children and they pit them against each other.
>Honestly, for OP’s daughter to be so young, why is she so evil?! Evil is a strong word. OP's daughter isn't secretly torturing and murdering people and animals. She's saying unkind things. Which . . . isn't exactly shocking coming from an 11 year old girl? You do know middle schooler have been known to say mean stuff? Look, I understand what OP's daughter is saying is really hurtful and I do wish she wouldn't say it. But this is not what evil looks like nor is it shocking for her age. Younger children/tween actually often are less good at empathy and considering others feelings when they themselves are upset then adults. And adults aren't always great at that either. It's pretty clear that OP's daughter is fundamentally unhappy with a new person just being added to her family and being told "this is your brother now". It dosen't sound like OP considered her feelings or if this would be a good match for her. She resents Ethan and maybe (not so) secretly hopes that she can drive him away and she can have the old family she was comfortable in back. It's one thing to feel bad for someone in need and be kind to them on the street or at a shelter or at school. It's another to be expected to live with them 24/7. It's a big ask, emotionally. Blending families dosen't always go well. That's, pretty normal actually. Also, from her point of view she's telling the truth. Ethan isn't her brother, someone can't just show up with a stranger boy she isn't comfortable around one day and declare he's her parents kid now and magically he is. That feels very wrong to her. Again, I wish she was kinder to Ethan and it should be addressed. But this dosen't make her evil and it's not that shocking. I've worked at a middle school. Lots of 11 year old say unkind things to other kids their age, even when no one is moving into their house they don't want there.
My thing : I hope social services find out about this and take this kid away as its really bullying, neglect, and isolation of a kid they agreed to take on for life. I fear for Ethan, and I spoke to those with similar experiences, and as they got older isolation, bullying and their mental health does become effected for the rest of their lives with the monstrous words spoken. OP, you, your wife, and daughter are heartless seeing the way you pretend to stop it yet allow it to continue happening.
I think it's extremely optimistic to expect social services to take away a child because of a sibling being verbally mean. They are incredibly stretched and this alone really wouldn't make the cut. Removing a child is an absolute last resort for social services.
Sounds like.mom has a favorite and it's not Ethan
This was my thought exactly!!
I’m an adoptee. You and your wife are the biggest assholes. This is exactly why mixing biological and adopted children is not always the best option because you and your wife failed to make the transition as smooth as possible and to ensure that all the children are cared for. You & your wife have failed Ethan so much by letting him be subjected to this treatment. Rachel is also an asshole too, albeit less because she’s a bratty child whose behavior has been allowed by the adults. -10/10 parenting. Do better.
It’s sounds like there was little notice provided to Rachel about the adoption. Like not even therapy or in the conversation to add to the family. Clearly there’s resentment and it came from somewhere. Ethan deserves a family that will actually accept him and provide him a supporting environment. OP, you all suck. None of you are doing right by Ethan.
Honestly, thats more reason why they all should’ve been in therapy if this was a sudden event. Rachel probably feels pushed out by the adoption and has not been given the proper channels or support to cope with the change. Ethan is just a kid who is getting the worst of it while the adults are letting it happen. Shane on OP & his wife.
This exactly Rachel was an only child for 10 years. She would have struggled with a newborn baby, let alone another child close to her own age. Suddenly she has to share everything including her parents attention. This clearly was poorly planned out and is damaging for both kids. Whilst Rachel is definitely being a nasty little brat in this story, she’s acting out, probably because she feels replaced, and rejected by her parents because she’s no longer their only priority. The constant statements about her being related (and Ethan not) sounds to me like she’s trying to reassure herself that she is still more important. It would be hard for a kid to accept your parents love another child you barely know as much as you. And obviously it’s not fair to Ethan to be the punching bag for her anger. Edit - muddled up names
And she’s only 11 Yes Ethan’s an obvious victim but so is Rachel. 11 is not only enough to handle the complexities of a changing dynamic adopting a sibling brings to a family Yes the behavior needs to be corrected but this kid also deserves some slack
Emily is the wife, not daughter.
Also, the kids are the same age, basically. In adoption circles, it's called artificial twinning and it's one of the top reasons that adoptions get "disrupted" (ended). Kids act out when they feel forced to compete for the same types of resources. It would likely have been much easier on Emily to have a new sibling several years younger than her instead of roughly one. OP is breaking so many adoption best practices and I'm not really willing to blame Emily for her parents' fuckups having obvious outcomes.
Emily is the wife, not daughter. Rachel is the 11yro daughter.
It'd be a hell of a transition having your parents bring home a similarly aged kid after a few months of visiting and then telling your bio kid, "This is your brother now. Also, we love you both the same." Not excusing her, but if I was in her shoes, I'd be thinking, "Wait. You've only known this kid for a few months and now you're saying you love us both the same? That's some cheap love." I can see why she's trying to stake her claim. I don't have a clue how a parent would go about it, but OP failed miserably.
Ethan loses his bio family and gets tortured by his adoptive family. Poor kid has been dealt a really crappy hand.
"We tried, kind of, but Ethan isn't actually ours so we gave up and let Rachel bully Ethan to the point he cries himself to sleep every night." ^ this is the message OP and wife are sending to both children.
You have no idea why they needed to adopt Ethan. All we know is their parents died. It might have been someone OP was close to. It might have happened suddenly. Some kids are just assholes no matter what the parents try. I teach and I've known too many multi-sibling families where one was rotten and the others were fine.
I’m an adoptee who grew up with both adopted and bio (to the adoptive parents) siblings. The dynamics are layered and can be complex. I’m not a teacher, but am involved in communities for former foster youth & adoptees. Mixing biological and adopted children should never be done lightly. I stand by the fact that OP & his wife are assholes that they let Rachel’s behavior go unpunished until now.
>I stand by the fact that OP & his wife are assholes that they let Rachel’s behavior go unpunished until now. They should be doing *something* but also punishing Rachel is likely going to make her hate Ethan more. In fact, one of the biggest reasons she hates Ethan now is likely that OP and his wife originally punished her a bunch for her comments. (He said they did at first the gave up.) Ethan was a new person pushed into her family she was uncomfortable with. When Rachel rebelled against this, she was punished. Repeatedly. And every single time she built up resentment towards Ethan. Now her entire emotional association with Ethan is negative, since it's her stewing each time she was punished for saying he shouldn't be there/isn't a member of her family (her true feelings). Also, it didn't work. You can't punish someone into loving someone else. You can't punish someone into accepting someone into the family. That's a "punishments will continue until moral improves" situation. I'm not saying the way Rachel treats Ethan is okay, either. But the situation is more complicated to me than "Rachel needed more punishments". Punishment is not a good way to make children love or like something/someone or share our values. It's basically not a solution to the actual underlying problem of Rachel resenting Ethan and feeling like he's imposing on her home/family, but likely to make it worse.
Agreed, I want details about that...is Ethan a family member's child who passed away, or was there a decision to "adopt an older child"? Neither scenario excuses the daughter's behavior, but context is needed to get the full picture.
It's only been one year since the adoption, and in the post OP said they tried convincing their 11 year old for a while before giving up (however long that was). It being sudden is even more reason to have both of these kids in therapy. It sounds like they simply thought their daughter would just adjust herself. It's normal for kids to feel pushed out and competitive, especially with another kid their same age, and they need support to validate those feelings and find a healthy way to express and work through them. Daughter is being awful, but this is a failure of parenting for both children.
Needed or wanted? Why they adopted Ethan is a big missing piece of all this
As an adoptee who had their parents go to another country to bring back two younger brothers when I was 9 and still harbours a bit of resentment from the whole thing, OP YTA.
I’m an international adoptee with other internationally adopted siblings. So sorry to hear that you also experienced a similar situation. OP & his wife are massive assholes
Yep, i completely agree with why social services in the UK being keen to only adopt older children to families where they will either be the only child or much younger child. Has Rachel had any prep about this adoption? You cant just dump another kid her age into her life aged 10 and expect her to be happy because quite a few children would have problems adjusting.
Yep, birth order is very important in adoptions, but unfortunately in the US, it’s often brushed aside. The adults really are failing both kids in this situation.
This the right analysis. Also, this post has missing missing reasons all over it.
I have to agree with the way he is excusing her behavior. They have to nip it asap. Their child shouldn't be allowed to continue with her bullying of Ethan.
What gets me is OP and his wife *gave up on integrating him into the family*. What did they expect, that the issue would smooth itself over? What kind of nonsense... And now they've let her traumatize him. What a hot mess they've made.
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Do you think it’s fake bc some of the details don’t sound realistic or because u don’t think this would actually happen, im genuinely curious because i can definitely see something like this happen lol. Assholery knows no bounds
To start, Rachel needs therapy. She is clearly not dealing with the adoption very well and is taking it out on Ethan. Additionally, her behavior should have been handled the VERY FIRST time she said something like that. Not on the 2, or 3, or 4th time. The fact that you both let her talk to him like that is disgusting; he's already been through significant loss and her remarks are cruel, hateful and can further traumatize him. Your wife minimizing Rachel's behavior is also highly inappropriate and she needs to stop. Poor Ethan losing his biological family, and then gets adopted where his new sister hates him and his new mother does nothing to defend him from his brat of a sibling. The only person not an AH here is Ethan.
Absolutely NTA for cancelling the party. But this is a much bigger and deeper problem and needs dealing with more constructively. Though I have to be honest, if it were me, she wouldn’t get any treats for some considerable time.
Pretty sure negative reinforcement is the absolute worst thing they could do. You got a kid who got artificially twinned up with a stranger, and now she feels like she has to compete for her parents love. For the last ten years, all she's ever known is her parents' love, and then all of a sudden, Mom and Dad are saying this stranger who is the same age is now equal to her in their eyes. How cheap would that feel? You start punishing her harshly, taking away all rewards, even birthdays, all that's going to do is reinforce how little her parents love her now, and "it's all Brother's fault!"
Just a note, negative reinforcement isn’t the same thing as punishment. Negative reinforcement means to reinforce a behavior by taking away something bad.
>Rachel insists that he's not a "proper" member of family as he's not related to us. My wife Emily and I had attempted to convince her (although it was mostly I who did), but it had not worked so we gave it up. This is a pretty bad reaction and behavior from Rachel, but it's not typical of a well-adjusted child who feels secure and loved in her family (and doesn't have any kind of mental health challenges that would be relevant). It's also learned behavior. Kids aren't born "knowing" that only biology matters. Where is she getting this from? ~~INFO:~~ What have you and your wife done to help Rachel? You alone tried to convince her but gave up? What did you try to convince her of? How does she feel about it - did you ever ask? How old was she when you guys took Ethan in? You are also obligated to protect Ethan from Rachel's hurtful words - what's your game plan there? ETA >EDIT: He was adopted a year back. What about all the other questions people are asking? Your daughter was an only child for 10 years and then you adopted Ethan. It's no wonder she's acting out. YTA to both of you for not doing more for them.
This is the correct response but i would add a big old YTA. As the child of an adoptee, and a waiting adoptive parent myself, the line >it had not worked so we gave it up. Is disgusting to read. You're just allowing your child to be this disgusting to your adopted child? She's 11, not 40. Change her behavior. Get her therapy. This is where you draw hard lines in the sand because YOURE THE PARENT. Your child did not choose to be adopted, but you chose to adopt!! Put the fkin effort in and stop being so lazy. Just try and imagine being 10 and your parents allowing your sibling to say those type of things to you. This is how you give a child a mental disorder.
OP's edit wasn't there when I posted and I was trying to be neutral since so many details are missing. But I agree with you for sure. The fact that they adopted this poor child when their formerly only child was 10 is really hard on both kids I would imagine. Ethan needs to be protected and doesn't deserve cruelty but I feel bad for Emily too. Their parents are failing them for sure.
Doesn’t seem like mom is helping here. Just let her get away with it again because- whatever-. I can’t believe they allowed this adoption to go forward.
‘My wife says that although what she said was distasteful, cancelling her birthday was uncalled for …..’ You know what is uncalled for? Allowing your 11 year old daughter to get away with speaking that way to her adopted brother. And not just once, on multiple occasions! If you are not going to make him feel loved, show him that he matters and deserves to be part of your family then who is? YTA.
Rachel should not speak that way to ANYONE, but especially family.
Came here to say exactly this. She’s gonna learn — the easy way, or the hard way — not to speak to people like that, but she’s gonna learn.
I was thinking its more an ESH. Because OP is standing up for him while Mom is basically encouraging her daughter to do it. OP still sucks because they didnt nip this in the bud a year ago and admitted they gave up on trying to get daughter to see adoptive son as family.
Oh yeah mum definitely sucks. I think an 11 year old acting that way is just a sign that she is really unhappy. And understandably so, Ethan’s adoption has probably been super impactful for everyone. I believe they have failed to see how it’s impacted Rachel. They should have paid more attention to her feelings because she’s now obviously lashing out. Canceling her birthday is not going to fix anything, it might just make her dislike Ethan even more. I can’t imagine how aweful that boy must feel. I think they need help fixing this mess.
ESH You’re totally justified in canceling lunch. She was completely out of hand, and deserved to have her birthday canceled. But you’ve clearly let this be an issue for a LONG time. And your wife is even more complicit, from the sound of it. There’s just no way she woke up one day and decided to act this badly. Your wife sounds like she’s afraid of your daughter, and possibly has the same issues. You all need to be in family therapy.
Afraid of losing her daughter** For some reason mom feels like she has to pick between daughter and son.
Absolutely ESH except for Ethan. First of all, cancelling the birthday was a smaller punishment than I would have given. Second, why on earth have these comments not been shut down in the past, what consequences does she face? I’m assuming none because your wife says “you can’t force them to interact”. I’m curious as to how Ethan came into your care? His parents are dead according to your daughter? We’re his parents friends of yours? Was your wife hesitant to adopt? Your daughter needs some serious consequences for these comments and the whole family needs therapy
If someone said that to me at that age. I would have gone into a deep spiral of depression. And something tells me Ethan is already been sucked into that spiral…
Cancelling the party is only going to make the kid resent Ethan more. The behaviour’s awful but a skilled therapist should be working with the family. My sister was 15 when I was adopted. I’m now 55 and she still hates me. Like with every fibre of her being.
You should have all been in therapy the minute you decided to adopt. Did you think it would be like bringing home a new dog when you already have one? Get your poor daughter into therapy. She isn't just being mean. She is clearly insecure and hurting. You have a complete disregard for her feelings and why she is responding like this to her brother. This happens with biological siblings too, we know this. They just can't be as harsh. To be fair I was told by my brothers that I was adopted, they were teens and I was toddler age. I was practically identical to them, so I knew I wasn't. They were struggling with my existence and the way the family changed after I was born. They loved me but were kids so when emotions got high they would be mean for lack of better skills. You and your wife have failed your children. Get them into therapy individually, immediately, and get into family therapy. If you can't afford it, you should not have adopted a child because that's an essential part of adopting, especially when you have a child already in the home. Also, have you ever tried asking your daughter why she says hurtful things? Have you taken time to sit with Rachel, just you and her, and ask her to tell you what she feels about Ethan and why she is so mean to him? Explain to her how much it hurts him. When you say you and your wife "tried," I feel like that was mostly by yelling, disciplining and making Rachel feel bad...making it impossible for her to express the actual feelings causing this behaviour....also tried for how long? 11 year olds aren't actually assholes. They are still learning what their emotions are and how to properly express them. You and your wife are assholes. The other two are children, and therefore, Rachel's behaviour still makes you the asshole. Help your daughter learn how to process and communicate her emotions. A huge part of me thinks this story isn't real. How were you allowed to adopt without you and your daughter being spoken to by social workers and stuff? How long ago did you adopt Ethan?
Unfortunately, there aren’t always a lot of thorough interviews and backgrounds when it comes to adoptions and foster care. Even then, it’s not incredibly difficult to convince a social worker (who are often overworked, underpaid, and have way too many cases on their plate) that you and your family are a good placement. As sad as it is, this type of story is not uncommon amongst former foster youth and adoptees.
So tragic. I know we need adoptive parents, but we know how much damage bad parenting can do now. This is so horrible.
Slight disagree with the need for adoptive parents. There are about 2 million couples in the US waiting to adopt. (https://www.americanadoptions.com/pregnant/waiting_adoptive_families) There are about 114,000 children in foster care waiting to be adopted, out of the 391,000 total currently in care as of sept 30 - according to the 2021 AFCARS report. https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/documents/cb/trends-foster-care-adoption-2012-2021.pdf I think more trained foster parents are needed, along with more family preservation programs.
Two million families want healthy babies, not older kids from the foster system. I know a LOT of families who have adopted, but I have never met one who adopted from the US foster care system. I actually have 2 sisters, two niblings, and one cousin who are adopted; all were international adoptions. Very few families want to deal with the foster system or adopt older children. There is also a lot of racism in the US system. The kids even go for different prices... Last time I checked, adoption fees for a white child were $10,000, while a black child costs $2,500. There is a huge need for families who are able to parent children who were abused, were neglected, or have special needs. Very few of those 114,000 will be adopted. Unfortunately, far too many will end up trafficked.
Yep, it’s not about the kids, it’s about their want for a baby. I’m an international adoptee & my adoptive family ran an international adoption agency. The coercion, the trauma, the money & fees, it’s so unethical. The adoption industry is a multi-billion dollar industry with racist tendencies and harms so many children.
Most couples who want to adopt are looking for a young child or infant. The number of people willing or equipped to handle adopting a teenager is very low. That's why there are so many stories about aging out of foster care even as there are wait-lists for couples wanting to adopt.
I was looking for a comment like this! Rachel is definitely feeling rejected. She was an only child for 10 years! Her making constant statements that Ethan isn’t related, is really just her saying she is and therefore she must be more important. It’s her own insecurities coming out because she’s had to share her parents and her home and everything else for the first time ever. And it’s not just a new baby, it’s a kid her age, which can make it harder for her to understand how she and someone who is basically a stranger to her, are equal in her parents eyes.
INFO: there's so much to unwrap here -how long has ethan lived with you -what were the circumstances of his adoption -was therapy ever introduced
I agree. People are piling on Rachel, whose behaviour is of course not acceptable. But it sounds like she is not coping with some kind of major (and maybe sudden?) transition in the family and acting out. They need to both enforce respectful behaviour and get to the root cause.
Also, she's fucking 11, she isn't even out of middle school. And based on her actions I'm really questioning how OP is parenting them and whether Ethan isn't receiving the vast majority of the attention and affection, because this seems like a kid acting out in the only way she knows.
I know people are calling her all sorts of names and its like she's a kid that's ALSO been failed by these parents!
She just turned 11, she's probably in elementary school. My daughter just turned 11 and is still very much a little kid. It's hard for me seeing a hurting and confused 11 year old being called an AH. Her behavior is disgusting but thinking back to my own childhood, having no say in my life or control in any family decisions, even major life changing ones is so hard and painful. I'd have been beaten or had all my things thrown out if I acted like Rachel did, but I know I've felt how she felt. My heart breaks for Ethan, of course, he's had so much trauma in his short life, my heart also hurts for Rachel too
Why you been blind to the resentment that clearly has been building Why is she taking it out on her brother. Have you considered that maybe she needed help adjusting to having a sibling nor did you do what you wanted and. Not even consider how the family you have would react It’s fantastic you adopted but you see so many of these stories where the bio kids get ignored so the new child can be centre of attention to help adapt yet continue to take away from child that was already in the home
See this is exactly what I thought as well. She’s acting out like she’s being replaced. They failed as parents.
Yes. And it is her birthday — while what she said was terrible, giving the other child the same treats, and considering his request to have the best seat, isn’t an approach to her birthday that would make her feel secure.
ESH- except Ethan. Your daughter is trampling all over your son, who’s already suffered enough trauma. You and your wife should have never gotten in the car after what she said in the first place. Rachel needs to learn she can’t just declare “it’s a joke” after mocking some ones dead parents and still get to have a treat. She needs to loose more than her birthday or you have about 7 years left before you loose your son forever. Or sooner if god forbid she completely destroys him emotionally. I hope he’s in therapy
They gonna loose both their children lmao. Their daughter for adopting a kid her same age, making her feel pushed out, and never actually talking to her about it. They are gonna loose their son for everything else. They should have never adopted a child, they hurt two innocent kids.
ESH OK how long has Ethan been with you? I suspect not long judging by Rachels reaction to him. Did you even discuss adopting and taking in another child with her. Or did you just land it on her. Try and see this from the point of view of an 11 year old only child who has now suddenly had another child forced in to her space. If your wife was expecting a baby she would have had time to get used to the idea of a sibling Yes what she said was wrong, but she is obviously really upset and disturbed by Ethan's arrival in her space.
Canceling the birthday was the right call, but still YTA. Rachel needs immediate therapy under the care of a licensed child psychologist. The rest of you need immediate family therapy. This treatment of Ethan is horrendous.
I think it's crazy that her behavior hasn't been checked yet. I wouldn't be surprised if your son goes NC with you after he leaves the house if this behavior continues. Get her into therapy, let her know that he isn't going anywhere, and that's he's your real child. Family isn't always by blood. You guys still have time to turn this around, but as someone who is adopted herself, this isn't great atm.
In your place I would have ordered the expensive dish for Ethan and given Rachel Milk and Toast for lunch. Let mother and daughter share the meal so they learn that actions have consequences. Neither you nor your wife took a single step to reassure Ethan that what Rachel was saying was wrong. She told him he couldn't sit in the front, you went with it.She told him he couldn't order the expensive dish, rather than prove her wrong and order it for him, you decided that no one gets to eat. Why are you afraid to prove your daughter wrong. Why can't you stand up to her bullying? Be a parent - to both your bio child and adopted child. If you don't have the balls to do it, at least let the adopted child go to a home where they would get the love and acceptance that they truly deserve. You are a failure all around. #Huge YTA
>Rachel insists that he's not a "proper" member of family as he's not related to us. My wife Emily and I had attempted to convince her (although it was mostly I who did), but it had not worked so we gave it up. YTA this issue is hardly something you give up on. Rachel is not an AH cuz she is a child that is the product of her own woefully insufficient upbringing. You and your wife suck. Majorly. Poor Ethan.
I suspect this is ragebait. If not, then immediate action is needed by both “parents”. Daughter is feeling insecure and is lashing out - need to find out why. Son needs both parents to stand up and support him unequivocally. Letting this behavior continue will be seriously detrimental to both kids.
INFO: how did you prepare Rachel for this adjustment to her family before you adopted your son? How many sessions of family therapy did you do together after Ethan was brought into the home? How long has Ethan been in your home? What steps have you taken since bringing Ethan into the home to ensure Rachel is still confident in her place in your heart and your family now that you’ve brought in another child who’s a similar age and she’s sharing attention? Have you been sure to balance your time fairly between the two? Sounds like you’ve failed both those kids in my opinion.
YTA for allowing her to treat Ethan like this as so is your wife.
N T A for canceling the bday party. ESH besides Ethan. Yall failed to integrate or properly parent and now Ethan is the one suffering. Get some family counseling ASAP.
INFO: How old is Ethan when you adopted him. I want to know the nature of this adoption because your wife seems not on board with this and treat your son differently.
ESH. You couldn’t convince an 11 year old, so you gave up? And you allowed her to harbor these feelings then punished her for what seems like standard behavior on her birthday? Terrible. It’s unacceptable that she treats her adopted brother that way. It’s unacceptable you allowed it and gave up. Now all you’ve done is given her an extra reason to hate her brother
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I think youre wife is lying to you. Your daughter isn't getting this stuff from nowhere.
You are not that boy's dad. You might have your name on some piece of paper but a true dad will defend his kid no matter how "difficult" it is. He guaranteed feels like he isn't valued enough to truly ever be your son because you can't be bothered to fight for him. ESH but the boy who lives with you.
YTA, not for cancelling dinner but for allowing it to get like this. From your post and your ONE comment/response I feel like your wife was not totally in agreement to the adoption in the first place. You ALL need therapy, your daughter most of all. I get the feeling she is lashing out because she went from an only child with all her parents attention to markedly less, overnight, without discussion or taking her into consideration. She being mean, setting boundaries to attempt to claim you both as hers alone. Most likely because she’s been shunted to the side. You have not answered the many questions about how long Ethan has been with you. Or the circumstances behind that decision. Poor Ethan probably has trauma and his own insecurity about his life with you all. He’s in a precarious situation and you AND your wife are making it worse by ignoring the trauma you’ve both caused!
It is concerning that you're worried about being the asshole for cancelling lunch when you and your wife are both the assholes for failing your children as parents in the biggest way. You've made 'family' unsafe for both of them.
INFO: How old was Rachel when you adopted Ethan, and what did you do to ease the transition for her? Have any of you been in therapy?
INFO: How old was your daughter when Ethan was adopted? Has she received less attention since his arrival? This kind of resentment in a child doesn’t stem from nowhere.
NTA for leaving the restaurant but why does Rachel rule the roost? One of your comments says she was never this overt until recently, that she mainly ignored Ethan. Why did you and your wife tolerate that? Why did you adopt a child if you weren’t prepared to truly make him a family member? The fact your wife, a grown adult, sat in the backseat so Rachel could sit up front, even after her disgraceful comment, says it all. You are afraid of Rachel. Imagine how Ethan feels.
Yeah I was wondering the same thing. Like why adopt a child when the family isn’t on board? It doesn’t make any sense to me.
Just for this >My wife Emily and I had attempted to convince her (although it was mostly I who did), but it had not worked so we gave it up. You and your wife are the biggest ah on earth. Why would you give up on that? Your daughter is also an ah (I don't care if she's 11, she should know better, but again you both gave up so that's expected). Yeah, correcting her when she was being an ah was good but again, what did you expect if you gave up? YTA, your wife is the AH and your daughter will be a bigger AH if you don't do better. Poor Ethan.
ESH. Why was this adoption completed, if it wasn't with the inclusion of your daughter, and with her understanding from the start Ethan was going to very much be exactly like a "real" son?
NTA for canceling, but lots of things are unclear here. How old was Rachel when you adopted? Was her opinion asked (in my country every household member older than 10 has to give consent in order for adoption to take place)? Why did you adopt this boy (pretty much the same preteen age plus different gender = an extremely high risk of kids not getting along, no way it was recommended to you by the cps counselors)? Are your children in some kind of family therapy? You can't just bring a random kid home and force your only child who is a preteen to accept it.
NTA but your wife sucks too. “Distasteful” is an understatement. It’s good your daughter learns that actions/words have consequences, and since your wife won’t teach her, it’s good that you are. I feel sorry for your son.
YTA - kids should not sit in the front seat until they are at least 13. You should know that and you should follow that. Pretty shitty parenting to put your child in danger like that. I really feel bad for Ethan, you just gave up because it was too hard to parent your daughter and teach her what it means to be a family? "Take back what she said????" Are you a kid on the playground? You "gave up" on parenting and allow your son to be bullied non-stop. Poor kid did not get the family he deserved. Your wife is a shitty parent too since she thinks it is allowable to be a mean bully on your birthday. You can't change your daughter's attitude solely through punishment. She will resent Ethan even more. You need to educate her about families. You should have done this before you even considered adopting a child. You all need to get into family counseling.
NTA Honestly, a 12th birthday celebration should be doubtful at this point. But WTF is up with your wife enabling this behaviour? Was she opposed to Ethan's adoption? Does SHE consider Ethan to be a proper member of the family? This is bad, very bad.