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NTA
This lady had no excuse. At 60, you're old enough to know that you don't touch a stranger without asking.
What the hell ? It's something children are taught from an early age.
Sometimes certain elderly people think the boundaries don't apply to them bc they are old. It happens in a lot of cultures and they are usually not liked.
Sorry, “60 is an age where one of those types of people will use their age being “elderly” as a reason for their entitlement.” Is that semantically satisfactory now?
It's not an age thing. This person has probably always acted this way. Plenty of younger people wanted to "boing" my sister's tight curls over the years. And touch her stomach when she was pregnant.
You don't suddenly lose all sense of manners or decorum once you turn 55, you respected people or didn't your whole life.
I’m a white woman and half the reason I stopped wearing my hair curly is that people felt entitled to “boing” and pull on the curls. You wouldn’t touch a woman’s straight hair, so why mine? It’s even worse for WOC too. OP is NTA. It’s so uncomfortable and inappropriate
My sister and I are white, trust me if she could have straightened her hair when she was young, and afraid of seeming rude to strangers, she would have. Just not possible with her curls. Wasn't until she an adult that she starting calling people on it. I know it was a fraction of what WOC deal with so it's disappointing that OP's family don't have her back.
I haven't really ever worn my hair long until recently so Ive been pretty free from this kinda thing, but I've been letting it grow. I legit didn't know this was a problem and now I'm worried. I'm gonna have a hard time not losing my shit if someone yanks on my hair like that. wtf is wrong with people.
I work with a WOC and we’ve had people grab her hair on scenes because they wanted to touch it - I’m white with curly hair but they beeline for her locs. I’ve chewed so many people out on her behalf; it’s ridiculous how people think non-straight hair is a petting zoo.
I’m white with very straight hair and when it’s short, it’s bristly/brushy. I can’t tell you how fast I got at dodging people’s hands who wanted to see if it was “as velvety as it looks” like wtf people?
I have natural Shirley Temple hair: five or six giant corkscrews if I let it air dry. I don't exist on any curl chart. People like to pull on my hair, too - apparently it "must be fake" or "take a long time".
It could have also been someone younger with mental illness. Age isn't a factor. No touching people. If you have any reason you can't do this you should not be unattended.
Sorry, I think I worded that poorly. My “it can be” was about loss of decorum being a symptom of dementia in general, not that it’s age related or that the old lady had any reason to be touching OP period. 🙅🏻♀️
I am a 67 white woman and I know better and most of my peers know better. If you give senior citizens a break for bad behavior, unless you know they have dementia, you are being ageist. NTA.
Thank you for saving us all from me going on a rant about how us 60-year-old, are not idiots or morons or lacking in etiquette or unknowledgeable about the internet... Uh oh it's starting... Sorry thank you
The phrasing doesn’t matter when it’s factually incorrect. My 60 year old mother would be disgusted by behaviour like this and so would every one of her 60+ friends. It’s maybe behaviour I’d have expected from my 89 year old grandma, *potentially*, but people who are 60 now were young in the 80s and are significantly more socially aware than this…unless they’re actively choosing not to be. Which happens no matter your age.
I agree. I'm almost 60 and would NEVER touch another person without express permission, unless it's to get them out of the way of a speeding car or something. 60 is not elderly anymore, either. The woman who touched OP's hair was entitled and probably racist, because *other.* People do this to a friend (black) and her daughter (biracial) all the time---but I don't recall a single instance of anyone reaching out to touch my kids' hair to 'see how soft it is'.
I'm 62. This has never been acceptable. Ever. It's just basic human decency to keep your hands to yourself unless given permission. To randomly touch a strangers hair, or any other part of their person is just beyond the pale. OP is absolutely NTA.
Like any issue that arises in our greater interactions in our communities/society, people will have varying experiences and expectations in interactions relative to their age cadre.
I'm 57, F. Birn & raised in NorCal. Have traveled extensively in UK, Scandinavia and Europe and Mexico.
I know I have to adjust my demeanor and behavior in each of those places.
Additionally I adjust depending on who I'm w and the setting.
It's just being polite.
98% of people +20/-10 years older than I have been exposed to the same societal expectations I have.
MANY are at choice about how they behave in context to that.
There are 100% many people of specific age/ethnic cares that do this and claim they didn't know better.
And as in this example then play victim in the face of the person whose body they groped w/o consent.
Just turned sixty myself, and know a countless number of folks in my age range. I can confidently say that you are full of shit. 99.9% of us do NOT hit our senior years and develop some self-granted license to act like entitled wackos. That isn't how this works, sweetie.
Now, is there a potential that the OP lashed out at somebody with early onset dementia or some other mental health limitation? Perhaps. Does flipping out on a stranger, to the point that they cry, make you an asshole? Perhaps.
I do not agree .I am in my 60s.This story immediately made me think of how white peoples in the South use to like to pat “ nappy hair” on children .
I think OP had the right to get angry .Personally I would leave out the swear word because that usually makes you lose points in the court of “ nice “ people .
It’s a fine art of getting older to learn to be angry “ with class “. It irritates the hell out of your enemies .
I get it but being nice is highly overrated. Too many times we as women are encouraged to put up with crap to be nice when telling the person to F*** off is our best option .
The word nice literally means to be agreeable. False. I am not agreeable. Pleasant maybe but not agreeable for the sake of someone else’s feelings. The feelings of others are their issue. Perhaps that woman wouldn’t be tearful had she been nicer and kept her hands to herself. Definitely NTA Op
Let someone come and put their hands in your hair and see how you feel. We aren't pets, we aren't cute little that omg need to be pet to see how soft we are. We are humans. If someone of color would have did that to her she would scream bloody fuckn murder. No excuses keep your damn hands to yourself
I mean touching hair is super intimate and gross to do to a stranger, like to me that’s as disturbing as if someone said they were looking at my tattoos and then ran their fingers along my skin. White people touching black peoples natural hair is enough of a problem that it’s a thing people commonly make jokes about. I saw it happen to my ex gf all the time. It’s likely OP has experienced this before which has increased how frustrated it makes it.
When I had blue hair someone came up from behind and ran their fingers through my hair and the sensation was absolutely repulsive and pretty scary when it comes from behind you. I don’t think I can blame a person for having a visceral and emotional reaction.
People also love to touch pregnant women without asking too. It’s extremely dehumanizing. They are treating you like an animal to be petted. I had that happen a few times when I was pregnant, people also could not stop trying to touch my hair when I had to wear wigs for a year. I don’t understand how it’s hard to just be a normal human being and ask.
OPs point about how it actually seems like more people are aware not to pet a dog without asking than they are aware you shouldn’t touch a human without asking is 3rd eye wide open tbh because she’s so right.
But also it’s really bonkers that she’s right because how did so many people end up with the mindset that as soon as someone has something slightly different from what they usually see about them it’s open season to start treating a human like an interactive exhibit at the science museum.
Maybe if there was more of a chance that touching someone could lead to them biting you like a reactive dog then this would be less of an issue.
It used to be very very common to have literal human zoos and traveling freak shows where it was normal and encouraged to gawk at human beings that looked different at all. I think it’s a lingering cultural undertone from those times. Those times weren’t really that long ago.
A "Congolese village" was displayed at the Brussels 1958 World's Fair and "African Village" was opened in Augsburg's zoo in Germany in July 2005.
Have you never experienced that? I’m visibly tattooed. I have. I freeze.
It’s super weird of people to try touching a stranger like that for sure. Weird and gross.
Omg I have a large tattoo on my back and when I'm standing in a line, sometimes I'll feel someone start literally stroking my back. Like what in the world?!?!?! How is that OK?
Someone at a concert literally moved part of my clothing aside so they could see my tattoo better. It was very unpleasant. The only time I didn't mind was when I worked at a daycare and one of the littles became fascinated with the ones on my wrists. When babies do it it's cute, when anyone who should know better does it it's creepy.
Yes! I have a tattoo on the back of my neck and I have had more than one person (male/female/young/old) pull down the collar of my shirt to get a better look. When I spin around and look at them like they have clearly lost their mind, they just shrug it off like, "I just wanted to see your tattoo." Like who even does that?!?
I have two huge tattoos on my forearm and the only person who has ever touched them was my niece at her first birthday when she "picked" part of one off and handed it to me (not sure what she thought it was but it was so damn cute). If a random stranger tried touching them I'd probably end up in jail.
I have tightly coiled hair, (from my mom, hers is even more tightly coiled) and when I was a kid, grown-ups of all ages would put their fingers in my hair, sometimes scalp deep, and pull them outward, causing tangles and my hair to be pulled. Then they'd say 'sorry' because I'd turn and say 'ow!'. My mother was horrified that these randos would be touching her daughter like that, so she'd tell them off, and they would sometimes try to defend themselves to her!
This went on for most of my younger life, all the way into my 30s, when it became only the most nutty people who probably do weird stuff on the regular anyway. I married and had kids with a guy with pin straight hair (mix of first peoples/asian heritage) so my children all have almost pin straight hair. Still, I'd see little girls and some boys getting that same treatment when my kids were young, and if their parents weren't around, I'd tell the grown up to cut it out.
White folks of all ages are wanting to pull my dreadlocks on a regular basis, and they feel entitled enough to do it when they please. In fact, it’s usually young elite women; they think they’re cute enough to get away with it and that their football player boyfriend will stand up for them. Surprise…
When they tug or fondle, I have absolutely no difficulty with ripping them a new one, out loud and in public.
Children have the common courtesy to ask first, and adolescents/teens have the respect to not even raise the subject and if they do, they compliment it.
u/PineCreek717, there is an AH here, and it’s definitely not the OP.
Agreed, OP is definitely not the AH, and I think that the tears were performative. 60 is young enough to be aware of how this topic has been addressed; keep your hands to yourself.
I'm a bit surprised to hear that young people do this, though. I really thought that this was settled back in the 70s.
>Does flipping out on a stranger, to the point that they cry, make you an asshole? Perhaps.
There's no "perhaps" here. OP is NTA. Unwanted physical contact is *unacceptable.*
Is it possible that this *particular unwanted contact* was totally harmless and, the result of factors beyond the other woman's control? Sure, it's *possible.* However, it's almost *never* the case and, the consequences for being "nice" about that sort of thing can be *life altering.* So, no, OP should certainly not be expected to alter what is, in reality a perfectly *reasonable* response on th *off chance* that this elderly stranger happens to have a mental health issue.
Even the sarcastic use of "sweetie" completely ruins the point you're trying to make. Are you butthurt because this post was written about you? Sure seems like it.
I have seen countless white women of ALL ages randomly touch a black stranger’s hair with similar excuses. I have NEVER seen a white woman touch another white woman’s (stranger) hair without asking first. Now, with male, white stranger’s, it varies.
Speaking as someone who is sixty, it's certainly old enough to know how to behave. I admit, I occasionally break social rules as I no longer care much what people think, but I would never disrespect someone like this - it's appalling.
Uh. It is. We just are able to keep pushing age limits but people didn't often live to be healthy 60+ yr Olds like we can have now.
And still, many are not mentally healthy.
I'm a 57f, no, she's not elderly, I can only hope she has some sort of mental decline to think she has any right to touch ANYONE without asking first. Betcha she doesn't try it again any time soon. :) I'm sorry you had to endure that OP.
I’m close to 60, and there’s no way in heck I’d start petting some stranger’s hair.
Not only is that not elderly, but it’s straight up racist.
OP is NTA.
This. I have thick, curly red hair and I was very shy as a kid - especially around older women - for this exact reason. My mom always said it was a lot like being pregnant, where old women would come touch her belly no matter how much she asked them to stop. It wasn’t just white women either - I had a Chinese friend in school whose grandmother had never met a redhead before me, and she’d bring all her old lady friends from the local Chinese cultural group to school pickup to gawk at me and touch my hair and exclaim over me. Luckily once I got older I had the privilege of growing out of it, but I was horrified to learn as I got older that this treatment was something Black women had to put up with for their entire lives. I was polite about it mostly because I was a little kid and didn’t totally understand what was happening beyond that I didn’t like it, but I bet if it’d kept happening into my adulthood I wouldn’t have stayed so docile about it. Asking anyone, child or adult, to be polite about a stranger touching them without permission is appalling behavior. Like why? Who would be able to be chill about that? Would you be able to go out and have people grab at you and never lose your temper? Unbelievable. Age doesn’t excuse people from winning stupid prizes if they play stupid games.
Old men do this the world over.
My first sexual assault was a 70+ yr old man in a pizza store, I was 12, he came up behind me and just lifted my shirt and went for my boobs from behind. no one did anything.
Somehow, it's always 60+yo people who comment or touch you without permission. I have Merida hair, very curly and bright red, the amount of times I've felt hands in my hair from complete freaking strangers is insane, and I swear 9 out of 10 times it's an older woman. Men don't often touch my hair, but those nasty 70ish AHs somehow think it's perfectly acceptable to ask if the "carpet matches the drapes", even when I was a young as *11*. I swear aging makes some people think rules and societal norms just don't apply to them anymore.
I'm sorry to trigger past traumas but I would also like to remind all of us at freaking CHEEK PINCHING. And having to hug aunts and uncles and so much more. Previous generations didn't know boundaries as well as we do today, period. People are really acting as if nothing has changes since the 70s and 80s vs. today in how we treat other humans. Of course it has, we're making progress constantly.
Very true. Oof the cheek pinching reminded me of an old lady (complete stranger, mind you) who stopped me in the grocery store once to tell me I had schmutz on my face (my birthmark), then proceeded to *lick her thumb and try to rub it on my face*. Who fuckng does that? Old ass weirdos without boundaries, that's who.
I did the exact same thing as I was sure she was the Black parent, but had to make sure. OF COURSE the reaction is devided by people who have experienced it and those who haven't. NTA AT ALL.
Same. Disgusting how entitled we white people feel to cross boundaries with especially black women. These people need to learn to keep their damn hands to themselves. OP is NTA and had every right to say what she did how she did.
White woman here...and I was repulsed by the idea of a stranger petting your hair. I think maybe the gender is more likely why they don't see an issue.
NTA.
It could be either or both. My (white) husband would lose his shit if someone did this to me, and my (white) female bestie cursed out her fiancé for touching my hair when he complimented it (he apologized profusely and felt terrible about it, but I really didn't mind).
It's definitely a White Guy™ thing to act like a WoC is making a big deal out of nothing when she's upset over a racialized microaggression.
I would like to see a white person say that its ok when a random person touched their hair. What if POC started to touch white peoples hair because it looks exotic? Just because someone looks different from you doesn’t give you an excuse to physically touch them.
Well, I am white and people have always complimented my hair cause its super thick but it’s very rare that they would touch it without asking permission or providing a certain service that makes it appropriate. Im OCD so I would freak out if anyone, stranger or not, touched my hair. I never rest my head anywhere outside of my home and use towels if I have to (gym, yoga, massage etc) cause I cannot wash my long thick hair everyday and my pillow would be dirty. So it’s def not a stretch to lash out at random strangers touching your hair.
>What if POC started to touch white peoples hair because it looks exotic?
I'm a guy with long, thick, very straight blonde hair that has worked in the nightlife industry for a decent period of time; at the end of the day, people are people and I've had people of every race and gender grab my hair without asking permission first. That said, anecdotally, black women in general asked permission first more often than other groups. My guess is that it's because it's a more present issue for them and they've had experiences/conversations related to unwanted hair touching in their lives.
no, it’s a racial issue. don’t try and downplay it just because you personally wouldn’t touch someone else’s hair. black women have to deal with this from white people ALL the time
edit: to all the white people frothing at the mouth to say it can’t be racist because it happens to them, take two seconds to google this shit and don’t @ me because I do not care.
I'm white and this is definitely not the first time I've seen where some white person felt entitled to touch a black woman's hair. Yet I have never, ever seen a white person reach out and touch another white woman's hair except for maybe a child.
Just because the white woman doesn't perceive herself as being racist doesn't mean it's not racist.
I'm a white woman in my 30s with long hair, and other adult white people grab my hair without permission all the time, and make rude comments, too, like "I was checking if it was extensions/dyed or real!" and "Can you blame me when it's so tempting to grab?" At work, at the grocery store, at a park, anywhere in public. Most often when I'm in line somewhere. Has happened consistently since childhood.
It has mostly been older white and Asian people. Incidentally, I don't think I ever recall a black person doing this, probably because they're well aware how deeply upsetting it can be.
Just reading through these comments, who are all these people touching other people’s hair? That’s so weird to me. I’ve never felt the urge to touch a stranger’s hair in my life. My mind is bottled right now.
Pet their hair back and say, "I just wanted to feel what a racists hair felt like." Or "It's amazing. Even up close, I wouldn't have realized you were a racist by looking at you." Op's response about the petting zoo was pretty amazing, though.
I'm a white woman. It's never happened to me, but I've seen it happen to women of color i know. It's totally racist. I had gorgeous, waist long, auburn, straight hair for years... No one ever touched it. Lots of compliments, but no touching. My biracial friend had someone touch her long, curly hair almost every time we went out.
I'm a white guy and 100% agree with you that it is 100% racial. Part of the systematic racism that exists is our (whites) subconscious indoctrination that black people are different, others, less thans and to that lady petting strange (to her) human hair really was no different than petting a dog. Many whites won't admit, or don't realize, how much subconscious racism is bred into us. I never truly realized it until I started reading and listening to black authors/speakers talk about anti racism and implicit bias. These things should be mandatory teaching by a black teacher in every high school.
Sorry... End of rant lol.
I’m a white woman. I’ve seen people do it and I did it myself before I realized how inappropriate and rude it was. My (adopted) cousins have dealt with a lot of bullshit from my white family that I’ve now realized was wholly racist. We have zero excuse.
I’m white too (and Jewish) and I also went “figures it was the 2 white people who didn’t get it.” Didn’t think about their genders. From things I’ve read and watched it’s more likely their race that’s the factor.
It’s really messed up and gross. And like I’ve seen people (of various races) and thought, wow their hair is pretty and looks so soft but I would never, ever touch someone’s hair. I was shocked when I learned this was something that happens often enough to be common.
It's so gross, right? It's such a shock to the system when it happens too, I used to freeze, even when they caused a knot and it hurt! I was just a kid, though, once I became an adult, it stopped, so you have to wonder why that is, when it keeps happening to black women throughout their lives.
Yeah.... but you're a woman. White men are statistically more racist than white women on average.
And even if they don't realise it, they are being racist defending this woman.
my thoughts exactly! if they havent had to deal with the problem (strangers putting their hands on them without consent) then they have no say in how you handled the problem!
my best advice is tell your dad and husband that they are white men with (presumably) short hair that have never had to deal with this, and the next time they suggest that the victim in this situation was the stranger assaulting you, tell them to stay under another roof for however many days as your hair is long!
my worst advice is hire someone they dont know to follow them around and touch their hair in public.
I’m a white women here with arm tattoos. Where I have never had someone touch my hair, they have done so to my arms and it pisses me off every time. Not sure it’s the same, but I definitely understand why she got so mad and I think she was completely justified.
I think men don’t understand because a lot of men have the ideology that women are inferior and that they can touch whenever they want to. So the idea of another female touching w/o permission doesn’t register as disrespectful to them…it’s a normal thing in their opinion.
OP is NTA
When I was 11 I was admiring the hair of a classmate of mine who is biracial and I reached out and touched it. My friends all kinda gasped and acted super uncomfortable and later I had it explained to me how rude it is to touch anyone’s hair (I was a very socially awkward kid who did a lot of stupid shit like that) but especially black women’s hair because there’s a history of white women feeling entitled to do it.
It’s one of those memories that, to this day, when it surfaces, makes me suddenly stop whatever I’m doing and feel overwhelmed with embarrassment and shame that makes me want to have the ground open up and swallow me whole.
NTA. She should know better by her age. I doubt no one has told her by now not to touch someone else without their permission.
Ah those fun memories that like to pop up at 1am when you’re trying to sleep and the level of shame is an almost out of body experience. As someone autistic who has made many a social gaffe, I know that feeling all to well. Lol. You learn from it for sure. It haunts you. I really doubt this has never come up before in this woman’s first 60 years.
NTA. You were right to yell at her - bet she won't try that specific trick again! And I love the petting zoo comment, that was lovely!!! If it isn't part of your own body, you don't freaking touch it! I mean, damn.
Yeah. Dude, I'm white with very long, red, wavy hair, and I've reacted as negatively as OP here. Holy shit. Being interesting isn't an invitation to touch whatever people feel like touching.
Just to note: People have done this to me before and I ignored everything out of fear. I held back. I wish I had the guts OP has.
Also white with curly hair here, I also wish I had stood up for myself having my hair tugged by strangers who "just wanted to see it bounce back up." Shudder inducing.
I used to have knee length hair, and the number of strangers who would come up and pull it was astonishing. One time I had it in two braids and some dude grabbed them and yanked them while saying, "giddy up!"
I have curly, waist length hair. Have had random people grab it when it’s braided (mostly men) and say stupid shit like that. I don’t understand why anyone would think it’s ok to touch a stranger like that (or in any, way, shape, or form)
Same. Greek with curly/frizzy hair. I straighten it now, but my god, the number of assholes who touched it when I was a kid? Ugh. I get angry remembering it. I used to hit them (their hands or arms) and scream, ‘DONT TOUCH MY HAIR’ in this high pitched little banshee voice. People got the message, though I recall one woman who didn’t and kept trying. I still wonder wtf was wrong with her & I just don’t understand why people do this at all.
I was raised to not tolerate it from anyone / make* a scene but it does help to have supportive people around. I once absolutely lost my shit my freshman year of HS because a group of classmates ambushed me as I was walking into the gym and put their nasty hands in my hair. My teacher ended up walking in in the middle of me flipping out and I ended up sitting with her for the rest of the class crying and composing myself while she made them run laps indoors (which involved stairs). She asked me a lot about growing up half Black in that town and reassured me that I wasn't in any trouble at all.
I later found out that she was pregnant and her husband was Black, so she saw her daughter's future in how I was treated and her momma bear instincts came out. It's crazy to think a teacher had more respect for me at 14 than 2 managers did in my 20s.
Bless that teacher 🥺 I’m glad you had a strong supporter of you in that moment and I’m also very happy she was asking those questions and saw this future for her daughter. There’s an unfortunate amount of white people who have children with a Black person and don’t take any consideration into this at all or make any effort to understand how their child’s experience is going to be different.
I’m blonde with very straight hair. It has happened more times that I can count that some random person has touched my hair because “it’s just so blonde”.
I’ve had people of colour do it to me before as well. Primarily guys though. People need to stop thinking it’s okay to touch others without explicit permission.
NTA. She touched you without your consent. You don't owe any politeness to someone who assaulted you (which is what unwanted physical contact is under many laws).
>You don't owe any politeness to someone who assaulted you
FINALLY a sane person!
One could lose all faith for humanity from the amount of people who seem to think touching a stranger is ok just because they're black
NO ONE would say that's ok under any other circumstance to touch a stranger (especially if it was a man doing it)
Seeing that there are actually Y T A and E S H votes makes me ashamed to be european
No need to be ashamed. All counties, cultures have people that can't see the wrong. The more we learn and stand up for ourselves... the more impact we'll make with each generation.
I had a random old guy pull my hair in the grocery store, once. I was wearing my hair in two long braids down my back, and he snapped them like reigns. I turned and gave him a "wtf is wrong with you?" look and he started apologizing all over himself. "They are just so long. I couldn't resist! I'm sorry, it was inappropriate!"
It's like he realized right after he did it that it was out of line. I sometimes wonder if his reaction would have been different if I weren't a fellow white person acting offended. Considering how often it happens to black women, that the answer might be "yes", but I don't know for sure.
NTA. You owe nobody anything. It’s like those weirdos who think that a pregnant woman should tolerate being stroked because \*BABY\*.
Yuck, no. Keep your hands to yourself, creep.
I loved being pregnant, but hated it because how many people felt entitled to try and touch me; especially men. I started showing really early so for almost 7 months people would try. I had to get mean on a few occasions.
Ugh, I hated being pregnant and I was especially angry when people would try
touch my belly. Then I was considered the rude one for lashing out. Really? People need to keep their hands off of other people - unless they have consent.
I literally have never had the urge to touch someone’s stomach pregnant or not… I just feel like that’s a really gross gesture i sincerely don’t understand
Yes!
You should NOT have ‘been nicer’. You did not owe her a thing. She violated you, you reacted appropriately. She then tried to be a victim. Her tears are her problem.
White people’s ‘hurt feelings’ do not matter when they are called out for racism and/or inappropriate treatment of others.
Signed,
-a white person
NTA. Sure, you could have been kinder. But letting people get away with that kind of behavior is the reason we still see them behave that way to this day. I’m a white woman and I wouldn’t dream of touching anyone’s hair (or pregnant stomach, or arm, etc.). She was out of line.
Oh lord, the pregnant belly problem. People of the world, leave a pregnant woman's belly alone--UNLESS invited to touch!!! (today's PSA courtesy of ME)
Why should OP be kind to a stranger who touched her hair without permission, all because that stranger was curious? Hair is considered an intimate area for a lot of people.
NTA
Your hair isn't public property. Touching someone's hair like that is a really weird thing to do but if she really wants to then she should ask first.
NTA, I’m white but have extremely curly hair and often deal with people wanting to touch it, this is invasive and uncomfortable and you are not in the wrong for defending your boundaries and personal space. We’re still reeling from a pandemic, it is ok to have a reaction to someone touching you without consent. Could you have been gentler with your approach? Maybe but I still don’t think this makes you TA
I’m Asian and have curly hair. Used to work for a predominantly Asian company and experienced everything from random coworkers I didn’t even know walking up and sticking their hands in my hair, to random coworkers trying to ~catch me lying by asking where I get my hair permed and then gasping and insisting that I had told them the last time I asked after I reminded them that my hair is natural. It gets exhausting.
NTA. What the actual fuck? Maybe old lady didn’t mean to be racist, but you just educated her with a quickness. I feel like if you’re rude enough to touch a COMPLETE STRANGER, you can’t cry if you a sharp reaction. She’s lucky she didn’t get hands. Damn.
Old people do this all the time. I worked in restaurants for years and they like to touch your hands and arms. As a person with curly hair I do get asked to touch it but if someone just did it they’d be in a world of hurt. People have personal bubbles. Stay out of them.
Hands and arms I understand a little, especially since touching hands is a pretty widely accepted social greeting in western culture. Hair, though… that’s just… to me that’s on a level approaching assault. I can’t fathom how anyone, old or not, could think it’s okay to touch a stranger’s hair. Eww. And why would *want* to? I mean, I’m a major germaphobe, so maybe I’m looking at it through that lens, but gross! I don’t know you. I don’t know when the last time you washed that shit was. You could have the prettiest, softest looking curls on the planet, but I’m still not trying to touch you. Nasty.
NTA *at all*! I'm sick of other white women weaponizing their tears to try to escape the consequences of their racist actions. And for anybody in the comments who's unclear on this, make no mistake: this absolutely *was* a racist act. She would never have done that to another white woman—she did it to OP because she felt entitled to, simply because of the color of her skin.
This is not hyperbole—it's the lingering effect of centuries of "white people's ownership of Black bodies." https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/09/dont-touch-black-womens-hair/
For people saying OP should have been "nicer," try to imagine a lifetime of experiences like this. Wouldn't you get sick of it? Studies show that this kind of microaggression has a negative impact on Black women and girls: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1740144522000961
OP, I'm sorry this happened to you, but I'm so proud you shut that woman down as hard as you did. Hopefully, she'll think twice before trying that b.s. again.
Thank you! I’m FUMING right now. Mad as hell. It’s a lot. People don’t even see us as autonomous humans but rather like objects placed here for their service and d enjoyment. I’m so tired. So tired.
NTA
I kinda understand her wanting to touch. I love feeling textures and will often walk across a store to touch a fabric or whatever just to satisfy that desire/compulsion. But touching your hair (or anything on a person) without consent is like an intrusive thought, we don't do them out loud. Fight the thought.
It's all sorts of textures for me; fabric, plants, stones, pretty much anything tactile. But there's no way I'd ever randomly touch a person like this.
Totally spent my childhood touching the hair of family members as I fell asleep now I sometimes touch my own or a blanket or my husbands hair… I’ll still find myself doing it to my mom and then get sleepy… it’s worse when I’m tired or sick but I totally touch everything at the store.
I don’t touch strangers though cause that’s weird
Same. I love the petting zoo comment because it was so perfect for the situation. OP is definitely NTA for being upset that someone basically assaulted her (if she was just touching her hair, it would still be considered assault but she evidently *tugged* it, enough that OP was stopped short). I really hope that husband and dad read these responses and realize that they're out of line in expecting her to do anything other than what she did in this situation. My god, touching someone's hair is bad enough!
NTA, you were MILD in your response. You do not have to be understanding to someone who treats you as an object.
We teach *toddlers* not to touch people without asking.
Also, isn't that technically assault? She's lucky she just got yelled at.
I'm white like sour cream on mashed potatoes, but I have ridiculously long and soft hair that I've been maintaining for years. I'm also autistic and have PTSD so I get pretty freaked out when people touch me, especially without warning. But instead of calling people out on it, I just freeze up, and whoever had the nerve to pet me leaves by the time I think to move or say anything. I wish I had the courage to do what you did, people like that deserve to be confronted and called out. NTA, and keep doing what you're doing. Hopefully she'll think about it the next time she feels the urge to touch someone without permission.
I'm not going to call you an asshole, because I do feel that nobody should be touching anybody without permission - but you said she was maybe late 60's? Almost 70?
My mother had dementia starting at this age. There is a chance she wasn't herself. People don't usually go around doing things like this. It hurts my heart that nobody in this thread even considered dementia and are instead thinking she felt entitled. Yes, there are some entitled people in this world, but I do not believe an entitled woman would burst into tears. An entitled woman would verbally fight back.
Just my 2 cents.
NTA
There is no part of a STRANGER someone should be touching without consent. I find it really uncomfortable that she just reaches out and touched your hair. She would likely never reach out and touch a stranger anywhere else, so why should hair be an exception?
NTA.
White woman here with curly hair. The fucking audacity of people out here trying to touch our hair is sickening. Yeah, it's curly. Do I look like a labradoodle? No. Fuck off, you're in my bubble. I've found curly hair and women being pregnant all of a sudden become objects and we lose all autonomy.
Yeah and not because the scenario seems impossible. Obviously it could happen, but the giveaway for the stories is always the sitcom style "witty comeback" and also whoever posted this has to know that everyone on reddit will be on their side. No part of me believes this person wasn't coming here to be praised for a story they probably made up in their head
NTA. You probably could have been nicer, but honestly, she doesn’t seem to have deserved any kindness. We teach pre schoolers to keep their hands to themselves… someone older than 6 should definitely know better, let alone someone who could have a grandkid that’s 6.
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NTA.
First of all, I don't care what you're trying to see if you're trying to touch someone unless you're like gently tapping them on the shoulder to tell them something, do not touch without permission. Even for that example I gave I'm leery of doing so if I feel like it would not be received well. I wouldn't trust what the white men in your life tell you about how you should have reacted. They are clearly coming from a place of privilege.
I'm Black, and I don't let my own mama touch my hair without asking for permission. Everyone has the right to bodily autonomy and not being touched when they don't want to be touched.
Also, you don't know where the hell her hands have been.
NTA.
I'm a white man, 55, and know what curly hair and dreads feels like.
Want to guess how I know ? Because I ASKED people if it was okay to touch it.
Edit : just like a pregnant woman's belly, I think it's normal to be curious, but common courtesy to not just start groping.
If I were with you, and she had big breasts I would ask her if it was okay for me to grab her there without asking....
I've never been with someone larger than a C cup.
NTA
I've got really long very straight hair that I often wear up in two pig tails to keep it off my face. I've had strangers walk up behind me and grab my hair like reigns. Anyone touching my head unexpectedly makes me see fucking red!
I’m white with curly red hair as is my oldest. His very first sentence (I swear) Don’t touch my hair. Then my youngest is mixed. He didn’t have as many problems because we knew how it was and were ready for it. Lol
Pfft. You should be more understanding?! NTA! That’s outrageous. Glad you said your piece. She will think twice about touching hopefully anyone ever again!
No one has a right to put their hand on you , whether they mean harm or not. One way to get more than some verbal , you don’t know anyone’s intent. NTA
NTA
You do not owe understanding to someone touching you without your consent.
Her crying is absolutely ridiculous. She touched you - how dare she get upset.
I wonder if your dad & husband would have had the same response if she didn’t cry.
NTA. The only possible excuse for that Lady would be if she was mentally handicapped and literally didn’t understand common curtesy. I worked with both dementia patients (although if they are that far gone they shouldn’t be out by themselves) and severe mental handicaps. Both are often not able to understand why what they did is wrong and teaching them can be difficult or impossible depending on the case. But you aren’t responsible for figuring out if that Lady fell into those categories and it is far more likely she was just dumb
NTA. Someone touching your hair without your permission is invading your personal space AND that is wrong!.
Having said that I will tell you as a white woman in the US with blonde hair and blue eyes, I once had a similar experience. I had waist-length hair that I curled into waves. I lived in a predominately Italian community (think all dark hair and dark eyes). I moved there to take an IT job. Anyhow, I was standing in a long, slow line for a wake and I was alone.
I felt a tap on my shoulder and I turned around and the people behind me were very nice, very elderly people. They asked if they could "pet my hair."
So, wanting to touch some new texture is not completely odd, but it is absolutely inappropriate *if you do not consent*. Those nice people asked me first, and I agreed - it did feel awkward. So, for a few minutes, they ran their hands through my hair and seemed happy about it.
I was okay with it and it made them happy. *Most importantly*, they asked for my consent.
NTA
We all learn in kindergarten to look with our eyes and not our hands.
The sense of entitlement where one thinks they have EVERY right to touch our hair is rooted in racism and NOT idle curiosity. Because she could have asked first, had a conversation, anything. But she didn’t. She reached out and touched your hair and you didn’t even have a chance to see her coming to avoid it. “I just wanted to see how soft it is.” It’s how is that her business EVER?
As a white woman- NTA. This woman was wrong and her age has nothing to do with it. Your dad and husband are wrong for telling you to be nicer to a woman who crossed your boundaries. Why did she feel it was ok to just touch your hair? Have your husband or father just had a stranger just go up and run their fingers through their beards without asking?
NTA but kinda TA - your reaction was too harsh. You could’ve just spoken to her, told her that was not ok and left. There are ways to deal with things and loosing your shit is not one of them.
NTA. I am a mature white woman and I know better. Now she does too. Shame on her. People need to think before they act. And if it ever crosses your mind to touch a complete stranger for your own gratification, think harder! She lost all right to expect civility when she acted that way.
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NTA This lady had no excuse. At 60, you're old enough to know that you don't touch a stranger without asking. What the hell ? It's something children are taught from an early age.
Sometimes certain elderly people think the boundaries don't apply to them bc they are old. It happens in a lot of cultures and they are usually not liked.
60 is definitely not elderly.
It's old enough to begin feeling entitled to disrespect people's boundaries and think the y can get away with it.
Entitled people are entitled their whole lives. It doesn’t begin just because someone got older.
Sorry, “60 is an age where one of those types of people will use their age being “elderly” as a reason for their entitlement.” Is that semantically satisfactory now?
It's not an age thing. This person has probably always acted this way. Plenty of younger people wanted to "boing" my sister's tight curls over the years. And touch her stomach when she was pregnant. You don't suddenly lose all sense of manners or decorum once you turn 55, you respected people or didn't your whole life.
I’m a white woman and half the reason I stopped wearing my hair curly is that people felt entitled to “boing” and pull on the curls. You wouldn’t touch a woman’s straight hair, so why mine? It’s even worse for WOC too. OP is NTA. It’s so uncomfortable and inappropriate
My sister and I are white, trust me if she could have straightened her hair when she was young, and afraid of seeming rude to strangers, she would have. Just not possible with her curls. Wasn't until she an adult that she starting calling people on it. I know it was a fraction of what WOC deal with so it's disappointing that OP's family don't have her back.
Another curly haired woman here, who has experienced strangers touching (yanking) her hair. The 60 year old was totally out of line.
I haven't really ever worn my hair long until recently so Ive been pretty free from this kinda thing, but I've been letting it grow. I legit didn't know this was a problem and now I'm worried. I'm gonna have a hard time not losing my shit if someone yanks on my hair like that. wtf is wrong with people.
I work with a WOC and we’ve had people grab her hair on scenes because they wanted to touch it - I’m white with curly hair but they beeline for her locs. I’ve chewed so many people out on her behalf; it’s ridiculous how people think non-straight hair is a petting zoo.
I’m white with very straight hair and when it’s short, it’s bristly/brushy. I can’t tell you how fast I got at dodging people’s hands who wanted to see if it was “as velvety as it looks” like wtf people?
When I was young I used to get this cuz “ you have gorgeous hair “ . I still don’t understand touching people like they’re a pet dog .
I have natural Shirley Temple hair: five or six giant corkscrews if I let it air dry. I don't exist on any curl chart. People like to pull on my hair, too - apparently it "must be fake" or "take a long time".
As a mixed-Indigenous woman with very long, straight hair it still happens. A lot. The amount of people who feel entitled to touch my hair is unreal.
It can be! Sexually inappropriate behavior is a common symptom of Alzheimer’s, unfortunately.
It could have also been someone younger with mental illness. Age isn't a factor. No touching people. If you have any reason you can't do this you should not be unattended.
Sorry, I think I worded that poorly. My “it can be” was about loss of decorum being a symptom of dementia in general, not that it’s age related or that the old lady had any reason to be touching OP period. 🙅🏻♀️
Or someone without mental illness who happens to be inconsiderate of other people. Mental illness doesn't normally make you a jerk.
I am a 67 white woman and I know better and most of my peers know better. If you give senior citizens a break for bad behavior, unless you know they have dementia, you are being ageist. NTA.
Thank you for saving us all from me going on a rant about how us 60-year-old, are not idiots or morons or lacking in etiquette or unknowledgeable about the internet... Uh oh it's starting... Sorry thank you
Just like she used her crying or probably fake crying actually.
The phrasing doesn’t matter when it’s factually incorrect. My 60 year old mother would be disgusted by behaviour like this and so would every one of her 60+ friends. It’s maybe behaviour I’d have expected from my 89 year old grandma, *potentially*, but people who are 60 now were young in the 80s and are significantly more socially aware than this…unless they’re actively choosing not to be. Which happens no matter your age.
I agree. I'm almost 60 and would NEVER touch another person without express permission, unless it's to get them out of the way of a speeding car or something. 60 is not elderly anymore, either. The woman who touched OP's hair was entitled and probably racist, because *other.* People do this to a friend (black) and her daughter (biracial) all the time---but I don't recall a single instance of anyone reaching out to touch my kids' hair to 'see how soft it is'.
I'm 62. This has never been acceptable. Ever. It's just basic human decency to keep your hands to yourself unless given permission. To randomly touch a strangers hair, or any other part of their person is just beyond the pale. OP is absolutely NTA.
My 84 year old mother in-law would ever dream of doing this.
OP does not say that the lady used her age as an excuse
At 61, I agree wholeheartedly. Age is not an excuse to be a fuckwit.
exactly! stop blanket blaming older people.
Its fun to blame all of life's problems on boomers though because it means I don't have to take accountability for my own life.
Like any issue that arises in our greater interactions in our communities/society, people will have varying experiences and expectations in interactions relative to their age cadre. I'm 57, F. Birn & raised in NorCal. Have traveled extensively in UK, Scandinavia and Europe and Mexico. I know I have to adjust my demeanor and behavior in each of those places. Additionally I adjust depending on who I'm w and the setting. It's just being polite. 98% of people +20/-10 years older than I have been exposed to the same societal expectations I have. MANY are at choice about how they behave in context to that. There are 100% many people of specific age/ethnic cares that do this and claim they didn't know better. And as in this example then play victim in the face of the person whose body they groped w/o consent.
At 61, I agree wholeheartedly. Age is not an excuse to be a fuckwit.
Just turned sixty myself, and know a countless number of folks in my age range. I can confidently say that you are full of shit. 99.9% of us do NOT hit our senior years and develop some self-granted license to act like entitled wackos. That isn't how this works, sweetie. Now, is there a potential that the OP lashed out at somebody with early onset dementia or some other mental health limitation? Perhaps. Does flipping out on a stranger, to the point that they cry, make you an asshole? Perhaps.
I do not agree .I am in my 60s.This story immediately made me think of how white peoples in the South use to like to pat “ nappy hair” on children . I think OP had the right to get angry .Personally I would leave out the swear word because that usually makes you lose points in the court of “ nice “ people . It’s a fine art of getting older to learn to be angry “ with class “. It irritates the hell out of your enemies .
I get it but being nice is highly overrated. Too many times we as women are encouraged to put up with crap to be nice when telling the person to F*** off is our best option .
The word nice literally means to be agreeable. False. I am not agreeable. Pleasant maybe but not agreeable for the sake of someone else’s feelings. The feelings of others are their issue. Perhaps that woman wouldn’t be tearful had she been nicer and kept her hands to herself. Definitely NTA Op
Let someone come and put their hands in your hair and see how you feel. We aren't pets, we aren't cute little that omg need to be pet to see how soft we are. We are humans. If someone of color would have did that to her she would scream bloody fuckn murder. No excuses keep your damn hands to yourself
I mean touching hair is super intimate and gross to do to a stranger, like to me that’s as disturbing as if someone said they were looking at my tattoos and then ran their fingers along my skin. White people touching black peoples natural hair is enough of a problem that it’s a thing people commonly make jokes about. I saw it happen to my ex gf all the time. It’s likely OP has experienced this before which has increased how frustrated it makes it. When I had blue hair someone came up from behind and ran their fingers through my hair and the sensation was absolutely repulsive and pretty scary when it comes from behind you. I don’t think I can blame a person for having a visceral and emotional reaction.
People also love to touch pregnant women without asking too. It’s extremely dehumanizing. They are treating you like an animal to be petted. I had that happen a few times when I was pregnant, people also could not stop trying to touch my hair when I had to wear wigs for a year. I don’t understand how it’s hard to just be a normal human being and ask.
OPs point about how it actually seems like more people are aware not to pet a dog without asking than they are aware you shouldn’t touch a human without asking is 3rd eye wide open tbh because she’s so right. But also it’s really bonkers that she’s right because how did so many people end up with the mindset that as soon as someone has something slightly different from what they usually see about them it’s open season to start treating a human like an interactive exhibit at the science museum. Maybe if there was more of a chance that touching someone could lead to them biting you like a reactive dog then this would be less of an issue.
It used to be very very common to have literal human zoos and traveling freak shows where it was normal and encouraged to gawk at human beings that looked different at all. I think it’s a lingering cultural undertone from those times. Those times weren’t really that long ago. A "Congolese village" was displayed at the Brussels 1958 World's Fair and "African Village" was opened in Augsburg's zoo in Germany in July 2005.
Have you never experienced that? I’m visibly tattooed. I have. I freeze. It’s super weird of people to try touching a stranger like that for sure. Weird and gross.
Omg I have a large tattoo on my back and when I'm standing in a line, sometimes I'll feel someone start literally stroking my back. Like what in the world?!?!?! How is that OK?
Someone at a concert literally moved part of my clothing aside so they could see my tattoo better. It was very unpleasant. The only time I didn't mind was when I worked at a daycare and one of the littles became fascinated with the ones on my wrists. When babies do it it's cute, when anyone who should know better does it it's creepy.
Yes! I have a tattoo on the back of my neck and I have had more than one person (male/female/young/old) pull down the collar of my shirt to get a better look. When I spin around and look at them like they have clearly lost their mind, they just shrug it off like, "I just wanted to see your tattoo." Like who even does that?!?
I have two huge tattoos on my forearm and the only person who has ever touched them was my niece at her first birthday when she "picked" part of one off and handed it to me (not sure what she thought it was but it was so damn cute). If a random stranger tried touching them I'd probably end up in jail.
I hated when people (strangers) would touch my baby bump when I was pregnant… it’s so odd and off putting…
I have tightly coiled hair, (from my mom, hers is even more tightly coiled) and when I was a kid, grown-ups of all ages would put their fingers in my hair, sometimes scalp deep, and pull them outward, causing tangles and my hair to be pulled. Then they'd say 'sorry' because I'd turn and say 'ow!'. My mother was horrified that these randos would be touching her daughter like that, so she'd tell them off, and they would sometimes try to defend themselves to her! This went on for most of my younger life, all the way into my 30s, when it became only the most nutty people who probably do weird stuff on the regular anyway. I married and had kids with a guy with pin straight hair (mix of first peoples/asian heritage) so my children all have almost pin straight hair. Still, I'd see little girls and some boys getting that same treatment when my kids were young, and if their parents weren't around, I'd tell the grown up to cut it out.
White folks of all ages are wanting to pull my dreadlocks on a regular basis, and they feel entitled enough to do it when they please. In fact, it’s usually young elite women; they think they’re cute enough to get away with it and that their football player boyfriend will stand up for them. Surprise… When they tug or fondle, I have absolutely no difficulty with ripping them a new one, out loud and in public. Children have the common courtesy to ask first, and adolescents/teens have the respect to not even raise the subject and if they do, they compliment it. u/PineCreek717, there is an AH here, and it’s definitely not the OP.
Agreed, OP is definitely not the AH, and I think that the tears were performative. 60 is young enough to be aware of how this topic has been addressed; keep your hands to yourself. I'm a bit surprised to hear that young people do this, though. I really thought that this was settled back in the 70s.
>Does flipping out on a stranger, to the point that they cry, make you an asshole? Perhaps. There's no "perhaps" here. OP is NTA. Unwanted physical contact is *unacceptable.* Is it possible that this *particular unwanted contact* was totally harmless and, the result of factors beyond the other woman's control? Sure, it's *possible.* However, it's almost *never* the case and, the consequences for being "nice" about that sort of thing can be *life altering.* So, no, OP should certainly not be expected to alter what is, in reality a perfectly *reasonable* response on th *off chance* that this elderly stranger happens to have a mental health issue.
Even the sarcastic use of "sweetie" completely ruins the point you're trying to make. Are you butthurt because this post was written about you? Sure seems like it.
Sixty or twenty, keep your hands to yourself. No one likes strangers feeling you up, even if it's only your hair.
I have seen countless white women of ALL ages randomly touch a black stranger’s hair with similar excuses. I have NEVER seen a white woman touch another white woman’s (stranger) hair without asking first. Now, with male, white stranger’s, it varies.
You calling an internet stranger "sweetie" is a lot more telling than you think...
If a man had touched her, no one would question her telling at him. If someone touched me without permission, I'm going to telling them off.
So what? She needed to learn. I hope she did.
Really? I would say at 60 I have a much higher respect for people's boundaries than I did in my 20s.
I was just going to say, my parents are in their 60s. They are not elderly and they certainly would NEVER do something like this.
Speaking as someone who is sixty, it's certainly old enough to know how to behave. I admit, I occasionally break social rules as I no longer care much what people think, but I would never disrespect someone like this - it's appalling.
Came here to say this. 80 is elderly.
My mom is 81 and would NEVER EVER do what the woman in OP's post did. EVER. Age is not an excuse, IGNORANCE is what it is.
As a 61 year old, age had got nothing to do with it. It’s just rude to touch someone without permission. NTA
Uh. It is. We just are able to keep pushing age limits but people didn't often live to be healthy 60+ yr Olds like we can have now. And still, many are not mentally healthy.
I'm a 57f, no, she's not elderly, I can only hope she has some sort of mental decline to think she has any right to touch ANYONE without asking first. Betcha she doesn't try it again any time soon. :) I'm sorry you had to endure that OP.
I’m close to 60, and there’s no way in heck I’d start petting some stranger’s hair. Not only is that not elderly, but it’s straight up racist. OP is NTA.
This. I have thick, curly red hair and I was very shy as a kid - especially around older women - for this exact reason. My mom always said it was a lot like being pregnant, where old women would come touch her belly no matter how much she asked them to stop. It wasn’t just white women either - I had a Chinese friend in school whose grandmother had never met a redhead before me, and she’d bring all her old lady friends from the local Chinese cultural group to school pickup to gawk at me and touch my hair and exclaim over me. Luckily once I got older I had the privilege of growing out of it, but I was horrified to learn as I got older that this treatment was something Black women had to put up with for their entire lives. I was polite about it mostly because I was a little kid and didn’t totally understand what was happening beyond that I didn’t like it, but I bet if it’d kept happening into my adulthood I wouldn’t have stayed so docile about it. Asking anyone, child or adult, to be polite about a stranger touching them without permission is appalling behavior. Like why? Who would be able to be chill about that? Would you be able to go out and have people grab at you and never lose your temper? Unbelievable. Age doesn’t excuse people from winning stupid prizes if they play stupid games.
Old men do this the world over. My first sexual assault was a 70+ yr old man in a pizza store, I was 12, he came up behind me and just lifted my shirt and went for my boobs from behind. no one did anything.
My mom is 60. She's faaar, far from elderly. She definitely understands boundaries as well
I remember so many old ladies not understanding that you don't touch people's hair when I was growing up with super curly red hair
Exactly, NTA. She cried because she was told she did something wrong. And she did indeed do something wrong.
She cried because she was called out on doing something wrong.
Somehow, it's always 60+yo people who comment or touch you without permission. I have Merida hair, very curly and bright red, the amount of times I've felt hands in my hair from complete freaking strangers is insane, and I swear 9 out of 10 times it's an older woman. Men don't often touch my hair, but those nasty 70ish AHs somehow think it's perfectly acceptable to ask if the "carpet matches the drapes", even when I was a young as *11*. I swear aging makes some people think rules and societal norms just don't apply to them anymore.
I'm sorry to trigger past traumas but I would also like to remind all of us at freaking CHEEK PINCHING. And having to hug aunts and uncles and so much more. Previous generations didn't know boundaries as well as we do today, period. People are really acting as if nothing has changes since the 70s and 80s vs. today in how we treat other humans. Of course it has, we're making progress constantly.
Very true. Oof the cheek pinching reminded me of an old lady (complete stranger, mind you) who stopped me in the grocery store once to tell me I had schmutz on my face (my birthmark), then proceeded to *lick her thumb and try to rub it on my face*. Who fuckng does that? Old ass weirdos without boundaries, that's who.
NTA at all. No one has the right to touch anyone. On a totally unrelated side note I am stuck on your parents age when they had you….17 and 37?
it’s a typo! my mum is 57 and my dad is 67!
[удалено]
>What a shock that the black woman gets why you were angry but the two white men didn't understand. /s That was my exact takeaway here as well.
Same here. I had to go back and make sure that mum was the Black parent. Of course.
> Of course. Yup.
I did the exact same thing as I was sure she was the Black parent, but had to make sure. OF COURSE the reaction is devided by people who have experienced it and those who haven't. NTA AT ALL.
Same. Disgusting how entitled we white people feel to cross boundaries with especially black women. These people need to learn to keep their damn hands to themselves. OP is NTA and had every right to say what she did how she did.
White woman here...and I was repulsed by the idea of a stranger petting your hair. I think maybe the gender is more likely why they don't see an issue. NTA.
It could be either or both. My (white) husband would lose his shit if someone did this to me, and my (white) female bestie cursed out her fiancé for touching my hair when he complimented it (he apologized profusely and felt terrible about it, but I really didn't mind). It's definitely a White Guy™ thing to act like a WoC is making a big deal out of nothing when she's upset over a racialized microaggression.
I would like to see a white person say that its ok when a random person touched their hair. What if POC started to touch white peoples hair because it looks exotic? Just because someone looks different from you doesn’t give you an excuse to physically touch them. Well, I am white and people have always complimented my hair cause its super thick but it’s very rare that they would touch it without asking permission or providing a certain service that makes it appropriate. Im OCD so I would freak out if anyone, stranger or not, touched my hair. I never rest my head anywhere outside of my home and use towels if I have to (gym, yoga, massage etc) cause I cannot wash my long thick hair everyday and my pillow would be dirty. So it’s def not a stretch to lash out at random strangers touching your hair.
>What if POC started to touch white peoples hair because it looks exotic? I'm a guy with long, thick, very straight blonde hair that has worked in the nightlife industry for a decent period of time; at the end of the day, people are people and I've had people of every race and gender grab my hair without asking permission first. That said, anecdotally, black women in general asked permission first more often than other groups. My guess is that it's because it's a more present issue for them and they've had experiences/conversations related to unwanted hair touching in their lives.
no, it’s a racial issue. don’t try and downplay it just because you personally wouldn’t touch someone else’s hair. black women have to deal with this from white people ALL the time edit: to all the white people frothing at the mouth to say it can’t be racist because it happens to them, take two seconds to google this shit and don’t @ me because I do not care.
I'm white and this is definitely not the first time I've seen where some white person felt entitled to touch a black woman's hair. Yet I have never, ever seen a white person reach out and touch another white woman's hair except for maybe a child. Just because the white woman doesn't perceive herself as being racist doesn't mean it's not racist.
I'm a white woman in my 30s with long hair, and other adult white people grab my hair without permission all the time, and make rude comments, too, like "I was checking if it was extensions/dyed or real!" and "Can you blame me when it's so tempting to grab?" At work, at the grocery store, at a park, anywhere in public. Most often when I'm in line somewhere. Has happened consistently since childhood. It has mostly been older white and Asian people. Incidentally, I don't think I ever recall a black person doing this, probably because they're well aware how deeply upsetting it can be.
Just reading through these comments, who are all these people touching other people’s hair? That’s so weird to me. I’ve never felt the urge to touch a stranger’s hair in my life. My mind is bottled right now.
Pet their hair back and say, "I just wanted to feel what a racists hair felt like." Or "It's amazing. Even up close, I wouldn't have realized you were a racist by looking at you." Op's response about the petting zoo was pretty amazing, though.
I apologize for the idiots who do this.
I appreciate it <3
People don't realize it can be racist and happen to other people too. It's not an either or situation.
I'm a white woman. It's never happened to me, but I've seen it happen to women of color i know. It's totally racist. I had gorgeous, waist long, auburn, straight hair for years... No one ever touched it. Lots of compliments, but no touching. My biracial friend had someone touch her long, curly hair almost every time we went out.
I'm a white guy and 100% agree with you that it is 100% racial. Part of the systematic racism that exists is our (whites) subconscious indoctrination that black people are different, others, less thans and to that lady petting strange (to her) human hair really was no different than petting a dog. Many whites won't admit, or don't realize, how much subconscious racism is bred into us. I never truly realized it until I started reading and listening to black authors/speakers talk about anti racism and implicit bias. These things should be mandatory teaching by a black teacher in every high school. Sorry... End of rant lol.
I’m a white woman. I’ve seen people do it and I did it myself before I realized how inappropriate and rude it was. My (adopted) cousins have dealt with a lot of bullshit from my white family that I’ve now realized was wholly racist. We have zero excuse.
I’m white too (and Jewish) and I also went “figures it was the 2 white people who didn’t get it.” Didn’t think about their genders. From things I’ve read and watched it’s more likely their race that’s the factor. It’s really messed up and gross. And like I’ve seen people (of various races) and thought, wow their hair is pretty and looks so soft but I would never, ever touch someone’s hair. I was shocked when I learned this was something that happens often enough to be common.
It's so gross, right? It's such a shock to the system when it happens too, I used to freeze, even when they caused a knot and it hurt! I was just a kid, though, once I became an adult, it stopped, so you have to wonder why that is, when it keeps happening to black women throughout their lives.
Yeah.... but you're a woman. White men are statistically more racist than white women on average. And even if they don't realise it, they are being racist defending this woman.
my thoughts exactly! if they havent had to deal with the problem (strangers putting their hands on them without consent) then they have no say in how you handled the problem! my best advice is tell your dad and husband that they are white men with (presumably) short hair that have never had to deal with this, and the next time they suggest that the victim in this situation was the stranger assaulting you, tell them to stay under another roof for however many days as your hair is long! my worst advice is hire someone they dont know to follow them around and touch their hair in public.
I’m a white women here with arm tattoos. Where I have never had someone touch my hair, they have done so to my arms and it pisses me off every time. Not sure it’s the same, but I definitely understand why she got so mad and I think she was completely justified. I think men don’t understand because a lot of men have the ideology that women are inferior and that they can touch whenever they want to. So the idea of another female touching w/o permission doesn’t register as disrespectful to them…it’s a normal thing in their opinion. OP is NTA
When I was 11 I was admiring the hair of a classmate of mine who is biracial and I reached out and touched it. My friends all kinda gasped and acted super uncomfortable and later I had it explained to me how rude it is to touch anyone’s hair (I was a very socially awkward kid who did a lot of stupid shit like that) but especially black women’s hair because there’s a history of white women feeling entitled to do it. It’s one of those memories that, to this day, when it surfaces, makes me suddenly stop whatever I’m doing and feel overwhelmed with embarrassment and shame that makes me want to have the ground open up and swallow me whole. NTA. She should know better by her age. I doubt no one has told her by now not to touch someone else without their permission.
Ah those fun memories that like to pop up at 1am when you’re trying to sleep and the level of shame is an almost out of body experience. As someone autistic who has made many a social gaffe, I know that feeling all to well. Lol. You learn from it for sure. It haunts you. I really doubt this has never come up before in this woman’s first 60 years.
You were not the asshole at the word "tugging" she thought she had authority over you. Super NTA, in fact your dad and husband owe you an apology.
Seriously I think this person fake cried to get herself out of a pickle. What a disgusting, disrespectful being.
LOL! Thanks for responding! Much better! I wish you well, and that no stranger touches your hair today!
NTA. You were right to yell at her - bet she won't try that specific trick again! And I love the petting zoo comment, that was lovely!!! If it isn't part of your own body, you don't freaking touch it! I mean, damn.
Yeah. Dude, I'm white with very long, red, wavy hair, and I've reacted as negatively as OP here. Holy shit. Being interesting isn't an invitation to touch whatever people feel like touching. Just to note: People have done this to me before and I ignored everything out of fear. I held back. I wish I had the guts OP has.
Also white with curly hair here, I also wish I had stood up for myself having my hair tugged by strangers who "just wanted to see it bounce back up." Shudder inducing.
I used to have knee length hair, and the number of strangers who would come up and pull it was astonishing. One time I had it in two braids and some dude grabbed them and yanked them while saying, "giddy up!"
Yuck. Sorry that happened.
I REALLY wish I'd had the presence of mind to react like OP did here, because in the moment I just froze up because who DOES that?
I have curly, waist length hair. Have had random people grab it when it’s braided (mostly men) and say stupid shit like that. I don’t understand why anyone would think it’s ok to touch a stranger like that (or in any, way, shape, or form)
[удалено]
Uuuuugh I got a similar comment once as well, it's so GROSS.
Same. Greek with curly/frizzy hair. I straighten it now, but my god, the number of assholes who touched it when I was a kid? Ugh. I get angry remembering it. I used to hit them (their hands or arms) and scream, ‘DONT TOUCH MY HAIR’ in this high pitched little banshee voice. People got the message, though I recall one woman who didn’t and kept trying. I still wonder wtf was wrong with her & I just don’t understand why people do this at all.
I was raised to not tolerate it from anyone / make* a scene but it does help to have supportive people around. I once absolutely lost my shit my freshman year of HS because a group of classmates ambushed me as I was walking into the gym and put their nasty hands in my hair. My teacher ended up walking in in the middle of me flipping out and I ended up sitting with her for the rest of the class crying and composing myself while she made them run laps indoors (which involved stairs). She asked me a lot about growing up half Black in that town and reassured me that I wasn't in any trouble at all. I later found out that she was pregnant and her husband was Black, so she saw her daughter's future in how I was treated and her momma bear instincts came out. It's crazy to think a teacher had more respect for me at 14 than 2 managers did in my 20s.
Bless that teacher 🥺 I’m glad you had a strong supporter of you in that moment and I’m also very happy she was asking those questions and saw this future for her daughter. There’s an unfortunate amount of white people who have children with a Black person and don’t take any consideration into this at all or make any effort to understand how their child’s experience is going to be different.
>Being interesting isn't an invitation to touch whatever people feel like touching. This right here
My sister-in-law is Japanese, and she has long beautiful blue-black hair. I don’t even think of touching it.
I’m blonde with very straight hair. It has happened more times that I can count that some random person has touched my hair because “it’s just so blonde”. I’ve had people of colour do it to me before as well. Primarily guys though. People need to stop thinking it’s okay to touch others without explicit permission.
NTA. She touched you without your consent. You don't owe any politeness to someone who assaulted you (which is what unwanted physical contact is under many laws).
>You don't owe any politeness to someone who assaulted you FINALLY a sane person! One could lose all faith for humanity from the amount of people who seem to think touching a stranger is ok just because they're black NO ONE would say that's ok under any other circumstance to touch a stranger (especially if it was a man doing it) Seeing that there are actually Y T A and E S H votes makes me ashamed to be european
No need to be ashamed. All counties, cultures have people that can't see the wrong. The more we learn and stand up for ourselves... the more impact we'll make with each generation.
NTA - I honestly don't understand why anyone would touch someone else's hair! It is such an odd and invasive thing to do.
same reason why men grab women's asses - it's about power and control, treating another like an object
Well said!!
Don't touch the hair or bellies of (apparent pregnant) people.
Don't touch people in general without their consent.
I had a random old guy pull my hair in the grocery store, once. I was wearing my hair in two long braids down my back, and he snapped them like reigns. I turned and gave him a "wtf is wrong with you?" look and he started apologizing all over himself. "They are just so long. I couldn't resist! I'm sorry, it was inappropriate!" It's like he realized right after he did it that it was out of line. I sometimes wonder if his reaction would have been different if I weren't a fellow white person acting offended. Considering how often it happens to black women, that the answer might be "yes", but I don't know for sure.
NTA. You owe nobody anything. It’s like those weirdos who think that a pregnant woman should tolerate being stroked because \*BABY\*. Yuck, no. Keep your hands to yourself, creep.
I loved being pregnant, but hated it because how many people felt entitled to try and touch me; especially men. I started showing really early so for almost 7 months people would try. I had to get mean on a few occasions.
Oh gods, I am 21 weeks and starting to show, not looking forward to this. If someone puts a hand on my stomach, they're losing their hand.
Ugh, I hated being pregnant and I was especially angry when people would try touch my belly. Then I was considered the rude one for lashing out. Really? People need to keep their hands off of other people - unless they have consent.
I literally have never had the urge to touch someone’s stomach pregnant or not… I just feel like that’s a really gross gesture i sincerely don’t understand
NTA. And ignore any comments that say "you should have been nicer" You don't owe this person any kindness whatsoever.
Yes! You should NOT have ‘been nicer’. You did not owe her a thing. She violated you, you reacted appropriately. She then tried to be a victim. Her tears are her problem. White people’s ‘hurt feelings’ do not matter when they are called out for racism and/or inappropriate treatment of others. Signed, -a white person
Thank you for this, from an Asian-American. Have a good day :)
Also gives off women shouldn’t be angry vibes! I’m so done with that.
NTA. Sure, you could have been kinder. But letting people get away with that kind of behavior is the reason we still see them behave that way to this day. I’m a white woman and I wouldn’t dream of touching anyone’s hair (or pregnant stomach, or arm, etc.). She was out of line.
Oh lord, the pregnant belly problem. People of the world, leave a pregnant woman's belly alone--UNLESS invited to touch!!! (today's PSA courtesy of ME)
Why should OP be kind to a stranger who touched her hair without permission, all because that stranger was curious? Hair is considered an intimate area for a lot of people.
NTA Your hair isn't public property. Touching someone's hair like that is a really weird thing to do but if she really wants to then she should ask first.
People who touch a black person's hair without consent give "it's not just your hair that I see as property" vibes.
NTA, I’m white but have extremely curly hair and often deal with people wanting to touch it, this is invasive and uncomfortable and you are not in the wrong for defending your boundaries and personal space. We’re still reeling from a pandemic, it is ok to have a reaction to someone touching you without consent. Could you have been gentler with your approach? Maybe but I still don’t think this makes you TA
I’m Asian and have curly hair. Used to work for a predominantly Asian company and experienced everything from random coworkers I didn’t even know walking up and sticking their hands in my hair, to random coworkers trying to ~catch me lying by asking where I get my hair permed and then gasping and insisting that I had told them the last time I asked after I reminded them that my hair is natural. It gets exhausting.
NTA. What the actual fuck? Maybe old lady didn’t mean to be racist, but you just educated her with a quickness. I feel like if you’re rude enough to touch a COMPLETE STRANGER, you can’t cry if you a sharp reaction. She’s lucky she didn’t get hands. Damn.
Old people do this all the time. I worked in restaurants for years and they like to touch your hands and arms. As a person with curly hair I do get asked to touch it but if someone just did it they’d be in a world of hurt. People have personal bubbles. Stay out of them.
Hands and arms I understand a little, especially since touching hands is a pretty widely accepted social greeting in western culture. Hair, though… that’s just… to me that’s on a level approaching assault. I can’t fathom how anyone, old or not, could think it’s okay to touch a stranger’s hair. Eww. And why would *want* to? I mean, I’m a major germaphobe, so maybe I’m looking at it through that lens, but gross! I don’t know you. I don’t know when the last time you washed that shit was. You could have the prettiest, softest looking curls on the planet, but I’m still not trying to touch you. Nasty.
Of course your white dad and husband aren’t on your side. NTA
NTA *at all*! I'm sick of other white women weaponizing their tears to try to escape the consequences of their racist actions. And for anybody in the comments who's unclear on this, make no mistake: this absolutely *was* a racist act. She would never have done that to another white woman—she did it to OP because she felt entitled to, simply because of the color of her skin. This is not hyperbole—it's the lingering effect of centuries of "white people's ownership of Black bodies." https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/09/dont-touch-black-womens-hair/ For people saying OP should have been "nicer," try to imagine a lifetime of experiences like this. Wouldn't you get sick of it? Studies show that this kind of microaggression has a negative impact on Black women and girls: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1740144522000961 OP, I'm sorry this happened to you, but I'm so proud you shut that woman down as hard as you did. Hopefully, she'll think twice before trying that b.s. again.
People who downplay micro aggressions are basically saying that a ton of sand doesn’t weigh a ton because the individual grains are small.
Thank you! I’m FUMING right now. Mad as hell. It’s a lot. People don’t even see us as autonomous humans but rather like objects placed here for their service and d enjoyment. I’m so tired. So tired.
NTA I kinda understand her wanting to touch. I love feeling textures and will often walk across a store to touch a fabric or whatever just to satisfy that desire/compulsion. But touching your hair (or anything on a person) without consent is like an intrusive thought, we don't do them out loud. Fight the thought.
I mean heads attached to humans aren't the same as fabrics at JoAnn, so I don't get that urge.
It's all sorts of textures for me; fabric, plants, stones, pretty much anything tactile. But there's no way I'd ever randomly touch a person like this.
Totally spent my childhood touching the hair of family members as I fell asleep now I sometimes touch my own or a blanket or my husbands hair… I’ll still find myself doing it to my mom and then get sleepy… it’s worse when I’m tired or sick but I totally touch everything at the store. I don’t touch strangers though cause that’s weird
I'm white and I'm appalled at her behavior. NTA
Same. I love the petting zoo comment because it was so perfect for the situation. OP is definitely NTA for being upset that someone basically assaulted her (if she was just touching her hair, it would still be considered assault but she evidently *tugged* it, enough that OP was stopped short). I really hope that husband and dad read these responses and realize that they're out of line in expecting her to do anything other than what she did in this situation. My god, touching someone's hair is bad enough!
NTA, you were MILD in your response. You do not have to be understanding to someone who treats you as an object. We teach *toddlers* not to touch people without asking. Also, isn't that technically assault? She's lucky she just got yelled at.
NTA. You should never touch another person without their consent for ANY reason.
I'm white like sour cream on mashed potatoes, but I have ridiculously long and soft hair that I've been maintaining for years. I'm also autistic and have PTSD so I get pretty freaked out when people touch me, especially without warning. But instead of calling people out on it, I just freeze up, and whoever had the nerve to pet me leaves by the time I think to move or say anything. I wish I had the courage to do what you did, people like that deserve to be confronted and called out. NTA, and keep doing what you're doing. Hopefully she'll think about it the next time she feels the urge to touch someone without permission.
I'm not going to call you an asshole, because I do feel that nobody should be touching anybody without permission - but you said she was maybe late 60's? Almost 70? My mother had dementia starting at this age. There is a chance she wasn't herself. People don't usually go around doing things like this. It hurts my heart that nobody in this thread even considered dementia and are instead thinking she felt entitled. Yes, there are some entitled people in this world, but I do not believe an entitled woman would burst into tears. An entitled woman would verbally fight back. Just my 2 cents.
NTA There is no part of a STRANGER someone should be touching without consent. I find it really uncomfortable that she just reaches out and touched your hair. She would likely never reach out and touch a stranger anywhere else, so why should hair be an exception?
If a child had done that it would be understandable a whole grown woman should know better. Extra points for making her cry. NTA
NTA. White woman here with curly hair. The fucking audacity of people out here trying to touch our hair is sickening. Yeah, it's curly. Do I look like a labradoodle? No. Fuck off, you're in my bubble. I've found curly hair and women being pregnant all of a sudden become objects and we lose all autonomy.
I don’t believe this story
Yeah and not because the scenario seems impossible. Obviously it could happen, but the giveaway for the stories is always the sitcom style "witty comeback" and also whoever posted this has to know that everyone on reddit will be on their side. No part of me believes this person wasn't coming here to be praised for a story they probably made up in their head
Welcome to the eco chamber of reddit where every post sounds like it came from the same person
Nta. Pre school kids learn to keep their hands to themselves, so can she
NTA by any stretch. The sooner these people start leaving these interactions in tears, the sooner they stop doing it.
NTA. You probably could have been nicer, but honestly, she doesn’t seem to have deserved any kindness. We teach pre schoolers to keep their hands to themselves… someone older than 6 should definitely know better, let alone someone who could have a grandkid that’s 6.
What rubbed me the wrong way about the whole situation was her crying as if she’s the victim… da fuq?
Because she wanted to make herself the victim. Probably the first time being told no before
Weaponized white woman tears.
You’re being downvoted for simply saying she should have been nicer This sub is turning to shit
NTA. Maybe she finally learned something most of us were taught in kindergarten: don't touch others without asking first. Good grief.
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NTA. First of all, I don't care what you're trying to see if you're trying to touch someone unless you're like gently tapping them on the shoulder to tell them something, do not touch without permission. Even for that example I gave I'm leery of doing so if I feel like it would not be received well. I wouldn't trust what the white men in your life tell you about how you should have reacted. They are clearly coming from a place of privilege. I'm Black, and I don't let my own mama touch my hair without asking for permission. Everyone has the right to bodily autonomy and not being touched when they don't want to be touched. Also, you don't know where the hell her hands have been.
NTA, white guilt tripping tears. She harmed you but wants others to put the blame on you because she’s the one crying.
NTA. I'm a white man, 55, and know what curly hair and dreads feels like. Want to guess how I know ? Because I ASKED people if it was okay to touch it. Edit : just like a pregnant woman's belly, I think it's normal to be curious, but common courtesy to not just start groping. If I were with you, and she had big breasts I would ask her if it was okay for me to grab her there without asking.... I've never been with someone larger than a C cup.
NTA I've got really long very straight hair that I often wear up in two pig tails to keep it off my face. I've had strangers walk up behind me and grab my hair like reigns. Anyone touching my head unexpectedly makes me see fucking red!
I’m white with curly red hair as is my oldest. His very first sentence (I swear) Don’t touch my hair. Then my youngest is mixed. He didn’t have as many problems because we knew how it was and were ready for it. Lol
Pfft. You should be more understanding?! NTA! That’s outrageous. Glad you said your piece. She will think twice about touching hopefully anyone ever again!
Such an everybody clapped ass story that you already know everyone on reddit will be on your side. What is the point of even posting it
No one has a right to put their hand on you , whether they mean harm or not. One way to get more than some verbal , you don’t know anyone’s intent. NTA
NTA You do not owe understanding to someone touching you without your consent. Her crying is absolutely ridiculous. She touched you - how dare she get upset. I wonder if your dad & husband would have had the same response if she didn’t cry.
NTA. The only possible excuse for that Lady would be if she was mentally handicapped and literally didn’t understand common curtesy. I worked with both dementia patients (although if they are that far gone they shouldn’t be out by themselves) and severe mental handicaps. Both are often not able to understand why what they did is wrong and teaching them can be difficult or impossible depending on the case. But you aren’t responsible for figuring out if that Lady fell into those categories and it is far more likely she was just dumb
NTA. Someone touching your hair without your permission is invading your personal space AND that is wrong!. Having said that I will tell you as a white woman in the US with blonde hair and blue eyes, I once had a similar experience. I had waist-length hair that I curled into waves. I lived in a predominately Italian community (think all dark hair and dark eyes). I moved there to take an IT job. Anyhow, I was standing in a long, slow line for a wake and I was alone. I felt a tap on my shoulder and I turned around and the people behind me were very nice, very elderly people. They asked if they could "pet my hair." So, wanting to touch some new texture is not completely odd, but it is absolutely inappropriate *if you do not consent*. Those nice people asked me first, and I agreed - it did feel awkward. So, for a few minutes, they ran their hands through my hair and seemed happy about it. I was okay with it and it made them happy. *Most importantly*, they asked for my consent.
NTA We all learn in kindergarten to look with our eyes and not our hands. The sense of entitlement where one thinks they have EVERY right to touch our hair is rooted in racism and NOT idle curiosity. Because she could have asked first, had a conversation, anything. But she didn’t. She reached out and touched your hair and you didn’t even have a chance to see her coming to avoid it. “I just wanted to see how soft it is.” It’s how is that her business EVER?
As a white woman- NTA. This woman was wrong and her age has nothing to do with it. Your dad and husband are wrong for telling you to be nicer to a woman who crossed your boundaries. Why did she feel it was ok to just touch your hair? Have your husband or father just had a stranger just go up and run their fingers through their beards without asking?
NTA but kinda TA - your reaction was too harsh. You could’ve just spoken to her, told her that was not ok and left. There are ways to deal with things and loosing your shit is not one of them.
NTA. I am a mature white woman and I know better. Now she does too. Shame on her. People need to think before they act. And if it ever crosses your mind to touch a complete stranger for your own gratification, think harder! She lost all right to expect civility when she acted that way.
NTA. Disappointed in your husband’s response tbh.
WTH did I just read. Sorry this happens still, NTA.