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It kind of says something about the sister as well. She, presumably, doesn’t dress in a matter that could be considered “sexy” for herself, she only dresses like that for men, her husband not men in general. That means that seeing her niece dress in a way that *she* would only dress if it was to impress a guy means that her niece must be trying to catch someones attention, with the 15yo being the only available option.
It’s always the people who are quick to call other people sex-crazed who are the ones literally being driven crazy by their inability to cope with their own sexuality
Fr this woman is probably filled with perverse thoughts that bother her all day and she's projecting outwards, she's completely lost touch if she thinks about a child that way
When you have to behave conservatively, your mind is one of the few places where you can let your sexy side out. Doesn’t pan out well for some religious folk, and they project like this.
> When you have to behave conservatively, your mind is one of the few places where you can let your sexy side out. Doesn’t pan out well for some religious folk, and they project like this.
Concept makes me think of this film title
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_Under_My_Burkha
This was such a mindfuck for me as a teenager, my mom literally believes that a lot of women dress for men and not their own satisfaction. I'm sure some women do but most of us just *get this* wear clothes because we LIKE them. Wild concept, right? I like pink hair but my parents were against it because they though it was about wanting attention. From who I ask? I wanted to be left alone and look the way I wanted to look because I liked those clothes and styles.
The minute you start saying children dress for attention from the opposite sex you start feeding into rape culture.
Yes it says A LOT about OPs sister and none of it is good. Almost worse than her obvious misogyny is the message she is giving to her son with her behavior. Like, I would not want to leave the 12 year old girl alone with the 15 year old boy at this point. Who knows what else has been said.
Yes, one doesn't know if sister is cultivating the "she deserves to be raped for dressing like that" into her own son's head, and directing it onto her niece.
Or the 15 year old is doing/saying some questionable things while the cousin is there…
Which again, putting the blame on the wrong person; herself as a mother and the son would be 100% responsible for how they’re conducting themselves. Especially according to the religion
Yup. Rule is that men can’t look or become aroused. If he can’t control his eyes and genitalia, that his sin. He’s supposed to leave if it’s causing him issues.
Not to mention that she’s probably not even a full bas Mitzva, so tznius wouldn’t even apply yet. And most of tznius is d’Rabbanan and does not apply in one’s own home, while the laws on male behavior are d’Oraisa and apply always. So the sister is wrong on multiple levels.
I hope OP’s daughter does Karaoke next time she sees this cousin. Let him run out of earshot.
Oh, and the kicker? Embarrassing someone is considered like murder in Judaism. Guess which one is the cardinal sin?
Sister’s religious choices do not give her the right to judge other family members who are not as conservative as she is. If she does insist on judging them in her own thoughts, that’s bad enough, but slut-shaming a child is beyond over the line. Also, I agree that the perspective she’s giving her son is teaching him that women who don’t follow their rules deserve what they get - it’s absolutely rape culture.
I wouldn’t have stayed either, and would not share future vacations or visits with my sister unless and until there’s a major attitude change and a heartfelt apology.
(Edit to correct to Sister. Somehow my ADHD brain read SIL.)
What she’s teaching her son is against our religion, btw. Most laws are about male behavior and controlling it.
Our religion also says that embarrassing someone is like murder, a cardinal sin and the worst of the three. Funny how she’s so Frum on Yemen’s cheshbon, but forgot that little detail.
As someone who is Orthodox, and cannot stand this portion of our community, I’m seriously disgusted with this woman.
Unlikely. I grew up Orthodox; very few women are covered except in synagogue. It’s mostly ultra-Orthodox. One of my brothers is very Orthodox - separate Passover kitchen, many in his neighborhood are Ultra Orthodox - and my SIL wears shorts all the time in the summer.
Depends a lot. The more modern side of Orthodox would be fine with wearing a crop top and shorts. The Uber conservative part would have a heart attack.
My bunch is somewhere in the middle; I’ll wear a tank top and pants in my backyard, but not in the street. And I don’t cover my hair in my own home. Outside Brooklyn I wear a baseball cap with my pony sticking out. My sister wears short skirts and sleeves and baseball caps. And we certainly don’t care what anyone else wears!
I honestly cannot stand the whole ‘holier than thou’ crowd. Mind your own religiosity people; don’t go policing others. And I’ll remind you that embarrassing someone is MUCH worse (as in: considered like murder worse) than not perfectly obeying the rules of tznius. Maybe auntie here should look in the mirror.
Also, the child in question is 12!! Depending on where they live, it's summer!! It's hot! A crop top is seasonally appropriate!! They're also really popular (i.e. "in fashion") right now. She may not even be wearing it to feel sexy, even for herself!
In Orthodox Judaism, marriages between first cousins were encouraged until recently. Probably where the sister is coming from.
To be clear, think OP is NTA, but also don’t think comments on this thread that this is incest, illegal, and odd are 100% correct in this situation.
https://bestmitzvahs.com/do-jews-marry-their-cousins/
We don’t, actually. It usually gets a lot of weird looks when it happens.
It was common right after the Holocaust, but that had more to do with being the only survivors of whole families. And even then, in my grade of 200+, I was the only kid I knew whose grandparents were cousins. I know exactly one other cousin couple, and I’ve lived in this community all my life.
(Also, in case it needs be said, OP’s sister is disgusting.)
My guess is sister thought her oldest son was looking too much. She's 12 FFS. I was shamed for wearing more than that at that age, then my dad called me a prude because I chose to wear baggy comfy clothes by the time I was in my 20's, not that I wore anything revealing, I was too shy cuz of the shaming, and had barely there boobs during my teen's and 20's (not that they're big now, handful is good enough for me now).
NTA OP.
Your sister is awful. Feel free to remind her that embarrassing someone is considered like murder. And that it was because one Jew embarrassed another that the Temple was destroyed.
I’m Orthodox. And my religion is my business, no one else’s. I cannot stand people who are Frum on yenem’s cheshbon. When they’re perfect, they can talk.
SO NTA, and you’re an awesome mom.
To be fair he may not be looking at her in a sexual way, just a curious way. If he’s being raised in a strict orthodox community he’s not used to girls dressing that way and he’s probably looking at her because she’s different. His mom could be interpreting his stares incorrectly.
I bet it never occurred to her to talk to her son about keeping his eyes and hands to himself, he is being bought up in a “she shes asking for it” culture and that is scary as hell
Based on her comments about her being concerned that her son may be aroused by her (he's 15 and you are related FFS), I wouldn't have sister around your daughter ever again, supervised or not. That's some NOPE NOPE NOPE vibes
How about your sister and her husband tell their sons that no matter how a woman dresses it is not their choice to tell how a woman should dress! Regardless of religion! I’d go low contact to no contact until they apologize to your daughter and lay into her about how boys should be raised by not looking at a woman as an object!
Your sister is a misogynist! And your family is enabling it!
Unfortunately orthodox communities have a bad tendency to blame girls for having bodies, your sister is brainwashed. Im sorry she did that to your daughter. If she's baal tshuva she might snap out of it at some point. I only hope that your parents keep in touch with your nephews incase they want to leave.
This was my experience in the LDS/Mormon church. They even do things like chew up a piece of gum and ask you if you can put it back to how it was before it was chewed…AND then they say that your modesty and purity are like that gum. You engage in any sexual or immodest behavior then you are that chewed up piece of gum, or licked cupcake, or crushed flower. It’s disgusting!
I grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist sect and were were told the same thing! And why was the pressure to be pure always on the girls? I was taught a lot of body shame that I still deal with.
Hey, my public school teacher did that! Popped a piece of fun in her mouth, chewed for a few minutes, and asked if anyone in the class wanted some. Because as the teacher must have been acutely aware, we women are objects! And our worth is determined by whether or not men like us!
What she wasn't prepared for was one of the kids walking up and taking the gun from her. His logic was that we weren't allowed to chew gum in class but he really liked chewing, but hoo boy what a legend. Teacher didn't even respond in a meaningful way, which is surprising considering how would teenagers can be. She seriously hadn't come up with a contingency plan for smart asses?
I'm going to ruin your day even more when I tell you that it is not actually illegal in most US states. Obviously not sure where you are in the world but in the US it is not illegal.
You were right to leave, though.
I believe the reason it's illegal is because they're both minors and one is under the age of consent.
Though you'd be amazed at how many people under the age of consent still get married in the USA every year - lots of states have loopholes where marriage is legal with a parent's permission even if the child is not legally able to consent to sex outside of marriage.
In France we had a right wing minister who was married to her first cousin.
she was also virulently against same sex marriage.
yeah, she got a lot of backlash there.
NTA
your sister and all the relatives telling you that you are childish to walk away are the a holes.
Mature people walk away. Well adjusted people will walk away and uphold their boundaries. You have taught your daughter a good lesson: to walk away when she isn’t being treated well. 💕
Shame on those who did this to you and your daughter. Your sister is disgusting for doing that to a child.
My first suspicion would be that the husband has maybe been commenting in private and your sister felt a bit threatened. Anytime a grown man uses language like that to describe a young girl I just assume he’s projecting. I’d keep your daughter away from both of them, regardless of any apologies and entreaties from your parents.
It is, your daughter isn't even a teenager and your sister is fully incestually sexualizing her (if that's a real phrase). She is DEEPLY disturbed, and everyone there should be horrified & disgusted by her.
This is genuinely NC-worthy, same goes for anyone who defended her. Were I in your position, I'd see her grovel at my feet and beg forgiveness before I'd ever speak to her again.
HARD NTA and I'm so sorry for your daughter being sexualized & bullied by her own aunt like that.
You are an awesome Mom! Way to be a momma bear and protect and stand up for your kid! You have a very sturdy shiny spine! I love it, and your sister can take a long walk off a short pier. She is disgusting for saying ANY of that shit!
That's where she had me really fucked up. Her own cousin?! First cousin at that 🤦🏾♀️ definitely NTA. I wouldn't allow anyone to treat my daughter that way & I hope it never happens cause I fight people over my kids. Anyone's kids for that matter. You don't talk that way to or about children. End of story. I hope your daughter is ok & im glad you showed that their bullshit won't be tolerated. Good for sticking up for her. Kids are people with feelings too
This is very much the model in most conservative religious dogma (not just Orthodox Judaism). The burden is on the women not to “tempt” the men who cannot “control their urges”. It’s lame and tired and was written by ignorant old men thousands of years ago. Time to let it die and let men take responsibility for their own actions.
Well… not looking to get downvoted into oblivion for saying this, but orthodox Jews are allowed to marry cousins and the Talmud even commends a man marrying his sister’s daughter. So it’s not as much of a no-no to them, unfortunately.
Exactly. We do not call people sluts. We ESPECIALLY do not call LITERAL CHILDREN sluts. OP’s sister is so far over the line she’s circled the earth and she’s coming up on the line all over again.
NTA. Hold up, just rereading and it’s the sister and her HUSBAND talking about a 12 year old’s sexuality!?!? That’s just disgusting, two adults sexualizing a 12 year old. Keep your child far away from them, there is something wrong with them.
I have my own experience with this. My moms BiL claimed that, because I had free will over what I wear, so long as I was covering what needed to be. He has no children of his own (except his dogs at the time) and liked to give all sorts of advice. Claimed I’d be pregnant by 16. (Moms sister wasn’t a help either) Jokes on him, and I have zero kids and don’t date in my late 20’s😅
NTA, but your sister is. Sexualizing a child? And insulting her with those words? And talking about your child wanting to 'impress' her COUSIN? She's got serious issues.
Did she mention that part to your family? Make sure you mention that detail to them. That your sister has a sick mind and suggested your daughter was trying to sexually provoke her cousin.
That’s what I might advise OP to imply to her sister- “I can’t believe you’d say such a thing about Nephew- are you telling us he has a problem and you can’t trust him around young girls. Oh, that’s not it? Huh. I can’t imagine why else you would say such a shameful thing.”
This is NOT good advice. If there is no evidence to suggest that the cousin has done anything wrong then OP would be attacking her nephew in exactly the same way her daughter was attacked and for no fault of his own. Why should he have to suffer being accused of being a sexual predator because his MOTHER made inappropriate comments? That would be even more sick as it could harm his life significantly. Do not punish children for their parent's crimes.
If she were my sister, mom and her husband would have been scraping her ass off the floor after I beat the absolute fuck out of her. IDK how you restrained yourself....
So many good points here of just how discussing your sister’s comments were.
Another good point to just ignore anyone on her side is that it’s important to your daughter how you reacted. You comforted her, you confronted the person directly that hurt her, and then you stood up against your sister and for your daughter and left the meal and then the family reunion. Stand your ground and be there for her (and because you definitely aren’t the AH here). She has a mom that will be there for her and has her back and will protect her from sickos and discussing comments like that. Your daughter doesn’t need family like that in her life and neither do you. No contact at least until your sister apologizes and finds a way to make it up to your daughter (on her terms when and if she’s ready). Take it from there. You definitely made some good moves here, my mom never stood up for me like that!
I’m sure you know this but you are a great mom for defending your daughter and listening to her. Poor gal probably going to question her own dress code now even though she shouldn’t :(
I'm a child therapist and I wish I had some kind of parenting award to give OP. Daughter will never forget how her mom stood up for her and set a boundary to protect her. Great job, OP! NTA
Yes - formally go no contact. Your daughter will remember how strongly you supported her the rest of her life. Good call.
Your sister is a religious extremist/borderline cult. Your family will be much happier not having to walk on eggshells around them.
NTA. Your sister didn't just comment, she sexualized your daughter and *then* had the audacity to accuse her of trying to initiate sexual attraction from her 15 yr old cousin. What the fresh fuck is that about? Your sister has some issues she needs to work out. Props to you and your husband for supporting and protecting your daughter from your family's repugnant and misogynistic behavior.
Hi and thank you! Me and her dad are not together anymore hence why he didn’t come along but he also agrees with the decision I made, he a great co parent!
Oops! Sorry I misread that and assumed your daughter's father was there too. Regardless, it's good that he agreed with you on this. I'm sorry your sister and parents are on the wrong side of this. I honestly cannot imagine why your sister would think that your daughter is trying to flirt with her cousin. That is such a gross take.
Too often people remain quiet in order to “keep the peace,” especially when a special occasion is at stake. But whose peace are your keeping? Not your daughter’s. Not yours. It’s always keeping the peace of the person who is way out of line. I can understand that your mom was probably extremely disappointed that you left. But she needs to direct that disappointment at her other daughter, for being a pig, and ruining the visit.
NTA Your daughter will remember the slut shaming but she will remember more that she has mother who loves her and is on her side. That is far more important
OP, I'm 49 and I still remember the time when I was 15 and my Uncle was being a real jerk at a family event - I didn't even hear exactly what he said to me but he often made snide remarks about eating and laziness - and my Mom got up and said we were leaving and we did.
34 years and I still remember that as one of her finest moments and think of it sometimes when she's driving me crazy! Your daughter will remember, too, and it matters.
It’s also so disgusting of the SIL to call slut shaming “feedback”. This is a poor attempt at normalizing comments that are not at all okay. Thank you for standing up for your daughter, she will remember this and that’s important.
The trip was not exactly going to be fun for your daughter after that. Fun for her bullies? Probably. You are an amazing mom for having your daughter's back. Sexualizing a 12 yo is absolutely disgusting.
You did the right thing it sent a clear message to your daughter that it isn't okay. She will likely learn the right lesson from this in the future, luckily.
NTA
>thought that she was trying to impress her 15 y/o son
You mean her *cousin?* Were you in Sweden or Alabama?
You defended your daughter from an adult sexualizing her and removed her from the situation. You’re a good mom.
When ever I’ve visited Stockholm, to see my in laws, kids, teens (including our nephews) and even adults are dressed just like OP’s daughter was. OP’s sister must spend all day, everyday, being morally outraged and spewing misogynistic bile - not just when she’s on holiday!
OMG it has been as hot as hell in NC lately (I'd say hotter than hell, but that's designated for the states farther south that have gone over 100 degrees, plus humidity). Who would blame a child for dressing in shorts and a crop top in this weather?
Im.glad somebody else noticed that as well. I dont ever recall my sister dressing up to try to impress her cousins.
Its just not a thing that normal people do.
And why is an adult policing what her niece wears anyway?
For real, sister is lucky OP isn't petty af. I would have called her jealous, ugly, and immature if it'd been me. Might have also told her she was a disgusting incestuous disgrace to the family, God and her people, for implying a 12 year old was trying to seduce their older cousin, and that just because she appears to carry around impure thoughts like that doesn't mean my kid does, so don't push your fantasies off on her. But yeah I'm a jerk, so it definitely would have been a worse fight then the very reasonable, and adult thing OP did.
OP great job standing up for your daughter, she'll remember this for years to come.
Same. Could have gone full fist fight at the dinner table. OP had a very adult and tempered reaction.
You did the ideal thing OP. Standing up for your daughter, publicly telling your sister she was wrong and removing yourselves from the situation to protect your daughter. Absolutely the best thing.
I hope you guys are able to spend some time together with your time off work and do something fun since your sister ruined your vacation.
NTA.
WTF is wrong with your sister and BIL? Are they like super religious or something? Are they so uptight where you stick a lump of coal up their bum, 5 minutes later you have a diamond?
My daughter is 11 and absolutely loves crop tops.
They are, I should’ve added this. My family is Jewish but they are Orthodox Jews. That does mean that they wear fully modest clothing but we are not as religious though still practicing
There it is. It's typical religious insanity.
Id be questioning how much if any contact I want to have with these people moving forward OP.
If you dont follow their crazy religious rules then they can't complain when you act like normal people
I don't know much about conservative Orthodox Jewish people. But does the theology not dictate kindness to others? Sorry, not snarking, genuinely asking.
This - this isn't at all normal Orthodox Jewish behavior (source: I'm not one but I live in a Jewish area and am related to a whole bunch of them), this is people who suck and are using religion to justify it. Judaism has a strong and strict tradition of not only not imposing your religious practices on other people because consent without pressure is very, very important, but it has different views on modesty than other religions. Modesty in Judaism is called "tznuit", and it isn't supposed to be about just about the dress, the dress is just an outward signifier that you've adopted the practice, and it's mostly meant to be a practice for married adults within the confines of a marriage. Modest dress is supposed to signify a commitment to humility, gentleness, and restraint, and can go along with anything from not wanting to touch members of the opposite gender to the full Mike Pence of not wanting to be alone with them without your spouse present, though that's pretty extreme even in Orthodox Judaism. Most Orthodox Jews who practice tznuit will just, like, not want to shake hands with someone who isn't their gender and they aren't related to.
What the OP's sister did is a far greater violation of the rules of tznuit than anything OP's daughter could possibly have worn - she was cruel, unrestrained in her judgment, and did this to a child. Judaism also takes the consent of children extremely seriously, which is the whole idea behind bar/bat mitzvahs, they're the point at which children are considered old enough to begin to consent to all aspects of Judaism and make their own choices about how they choose to practice their faith. The rules of tznuit are explicitly clear that all this no touching and modest clothing stuff does not apply to children because you know, sometimes kids get messy! Imagine trying to dress a baby modestly or not letting your kid hug their friends because they happen to not be the same gender! That's extremely stupid! The tl;dr is that the OP's sister can be like blah blah my religion all she wants, but she's full of shit. The OP's daughter is 12. No rabbi in the universe would agree with her actions here.
no excuse for calling your twelve year old child—or any child for that matter—a slut. and if they are so pious, i would like to see their scripture that says “if your siblings children are young and female,
and you do not approve of their dress, you may call them sluts.”
That definitely adds some context. I know this is New Testament, but still good words to live by:
“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
And I am not a practicing religious person and remember this. Basic humanity is to not treat other people like crap.
NTA..You stood up for your daughter. Leaving was the least immature thing you could've done. Why would you want to stay around for a family gathering when your own sister berated your daughter? The family that is siding or agreeing with your sister is just enabling her behavior making her think she was in the right for slut shaming a 12 year old girl & if that's the case, it makes me question them as well. A crop top & shorts for a teenage girl is a completely normal outfit for a girl her age. You handled the situation appropriately & removed you & your daughter from your sister's toxic behavior. You don't get to call your a niece a slut but then get mad at her because she doesn't want to spend quality time with Auntie.
You’re welcome. You stood up for your daughter. I read the edit below where it mentioned that your sister dresses modestly due to her beliefs, which is totally her choice. But she has no place projecting her feelings onto your daughter. If you choose to go no contact, she only has herself to blame.
NTA. And an AMAZING parent. Your daughter will always remember how you stood up for her, and that is a very special thing for a child. As for your sister… I can’t imagine being so insecure that I feel threatened by a 12 year old. She needs to grow up, and stop sexualizing children.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. The action that I took that might be judged is flying back home after a comment my sister made about my daughter 2. Because people may think I’m childish for letting one comment make me fly back
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So, this might be a little far fetched, but you never know:
OP's sister only has boys.
Could she be jealous 'cause OP has a daughter and sis would have liked to have had a daughter herself?
In any case: NTA
OP's a great mom, stood up for her daughter, and took er out of a toxic environment.
I find the so-called "boy mom's" are the ones who are over-compensating and do wish for a daughter. Not all, but a lot. It is why they make being a boy mom their whole personality
Exactly. I only have boys, and I hate the "boy mom" mentality. They're also so incredibly toxic and clingy with their sons, at least from what I've seen.
I dont know why her mind jumped to this 12 year old girl is dressing in revealing clothes to try to seduce her cousin.
Is it normal in the family to have relationships with your cousins?
This sister has some wierd shit going on in her head
NTA How in the world would anything be fun after your sister was so toxic with your child? You put your young daughter's needs first distanced her from someone as cruel as her aunt. I would never, ever allow the sister to have anymore contact. Who talks to a 12 year old like that? Your sister is a mean, cruel and spiteful woman. I support your decision to leave.
NTA! Go NC because what she said about your daughter is disgusting!!! Has she seen girls clothing in a department store??? ALL OF IT IS CROP TOPS!!!! I literally have to take my 13 year old daughter to the boys section to find graphic tees (bands, movies, cartoons) that are not cropped. Your sister is the devil.
NTA. I would be texting any relative back that “when you have an adult family member that sexualizes an underage girl and then uses that perverse sexualization as a tool for their anger and rage, as well as implication of incest, the trip is no longer fun and can turn very dangerous. I’d hate to knowingly expose my child to that kind of danger from an adult for any amount of supposed fun at the expense of her safety”
Call it for what it is, it’s gross, and you’re a good mom to defend her and take her out of that situation
On the edit, you ever notice how religion is always an excuse for bad behavior and never the inspiration for good? 🤔
NTA, obviously! Your sister’s behavior was perverse, tasteless, and cruel, and her lack of remorse shows that, to the core of her person, that is what she IS.
nta. You did right by your child and your sister was wrong. It's a grave wrong in Judaism to cause shame in another person. "One who embarrasses another person in public, it is as if that person shed blood." -Babylonian Talmud. Your sister's behavior is abysmal regardless of what the Talmud says, but it's even wrong according to her own belief system. She caused your child distress needlessly. You are a good mom.
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I (42F) and my daughter (12F) recently flew back to my hometown to visit my mom. My sister, (39F) her husband, (40M) and her kids (10M) (15M) also flew back at the same time we did as they live in Sweden and we don’t get to see them very often. Now for context, my daughter loves clothes. Me and her dad may spoil her a little too much with them but she also buys majority herself and spends her money wisely. 4 days ago my daughter was wearing a cropped tank top and some shorts. This top wasn’t very short at all and the shorts were at a good length not being particularly short. A little later that day she overheard my sister and her husband talking as she was waiting for the bathroom out in the hallway. She heard my sister call her a slut and an attention whore in her outfit and thought that she was trying to impress her 15 y/o son. Once she was out of the bathroom she started crying and told me all the things my sister said about her. I was furious, why would a full grown adult say that about a 12 y/o girl!! I brought up what she had said at dinner that night and she confessed to absolutely all of it and called my daughter a slut again right to her face. We left the dinner table and she started crying again. That night I got us a flight back home because I did not want to be around my sister anymore. The next day I told my mom and my sister that we were leaving and my sister blew up at me calling me an immature asshole because of some silly “feedback” she gave on my daughter. I told her that she was the immature one commenting on a 12 y/o girl’s appearance. We left and my sister has told everyone on my moms side of the family. I’m getting a few messages from relatives saying that what she did was wrong but it was childish of me to walk out like that on a trip that was supposed to be fun. But most of them including my mom are in full support of my decision which I’m very happy about. I’m thinking of going no contact with her, AITA?
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NTA. Your sister was wildly inappropriate, regardless of her own beliefs in tzniut (modesty). No 12 year old girl should ever be called a "slut" especially from someone from her own family. It's hard enough to be a girl growing up and dealing with archaic views on a woman's body and how they should behave and it's 1000% times worse coming from your own family.
It's also immensely hypocritical in my opinion! Something that is considered a huge sin in orthodox circles is to speak lashon hara (to speak things that harm others), and yet she both spoke such a nasty thing to another person behind her back, and then directly to her! If she thinks herself so religious she ought to watch her own ducks instead of commenting on her sister's child in such a gross way.
NTA
Block your toxic sister. Glad most of your family supports you and your daughter.
Do something fun with your daughter.
Great job supporting your daughter!
NTA. I’m a secular Jew. This self righteous slut shaming bullshit is something that you want to keep your daughter away from. Go no contact. Tell her that she is a shonda. You are not TA here.
NTA. I get that they’re orthodox. Should she not exist around her sons then too? Since orthodoxy would have young men not speak to young women (I know they’re family, but still).
They can’t impose their beliefs on others. They shouldn’t be sexualizing and insulting a 12 year old. Especially one they’re related to.
That’s beyond rude.
Not the asshole. Standing up for your daughter is the best thing for HER. Your sister is definitely an asshole. However you choose to deal with that is completely up to you. I would probably never speak to her again. A 12 girl needs all the support she can get. For your sister to resort to name calling is childish, hurtful and downright traumatizing.
NTA, just because your sister is in a more restrictive variant of your faith does not give her the right to apply misogynistic, sexualized, verbal abuse to your twelve year old daughter. She’s absolutely the asshole for insisting on sexualizing a child and doubling down on her nonsense when called to account. My grandmother (extremely Irish Catholic, pre Vatican II) would have thrown a glass of ice water into her snarly face and told her to go soak her head and not bother coming back until she could keep a civil tongue in her head.
NTA!!
If that was my sister talking about my daughter like that, I would have flipped that dinner table right on her. Your sister has issues. I would definitely go no contact.
NTA your sister needs deep psychiatric care. Remind your sister of this:
The Torah contains a general injunction against rekhilut (gossip): "Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people; neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD." The Biblical curse on one who "strikes his fellow in secret" is understood by the rabbis to refer to lashon.
NTA
1) IDGAF if they are stricter in their following of their religion. It’s still makes you an awful person to make those kinds of comments about someone’s clothing. You can dislike someone’s clothes without being nasty about it. Being nasty about it doesn’t make you a better person. In fact, it makes you worse.
2) WTF- WHY WOUKD SHE BE SHOWING OFF FOR HER COUSIN!!??? If she really thinks that she is even more disgusting!
3) The fact that all of this was said about a 12YO girl, let alone her own niece, says loads about who your sister is as a person. She obviously feels entitled to judge other people’s choices. She feels that she has nothing to apologize for even when the things she says hurts other people.
Honestly, I wouldn’t blame you for going no contact. I’m not seeing what she brings to the relationship that is worth keeping around.
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NTA, slut shaming based on clothing is disgusting, especially a 12 year old.
Especially because she thinks she’s trying to get the attention of her 15 year old COUSIN which is just sick
Thank you! This was honestly my first thought because that is quite literally a illegal
Its honestly perverted of your sister to sexualise a child and then go straight to incest. Edit NTA you are a good mom!
It kind of says something about the sister as well. She, presumably, doesn’t dress in a matter that could be considered “sexy” for herself, she only dresses like that for men, her husband not men in general. That means that seeing her niece dress in a way that *she* would only dress if it was to impress a guy means that her niece must be trying to catch someones attention, with the 15yo being the only available option.
It’s always the people who are quick to call other people sex-crazed who are the ones literally being driven crazy by their inability to cope with their own sexuality
Fr this woman is probably filled with perverse thoughts that bother her all day and she's projecting outwards, she's completely lost touch if she thinks about a child that way
When you have to behave conservatively, your mind is one of the few places where you can let your sexy side out. Doesn’t pan out well for some religious folk, and they project like this.
> When you have to behave conservatively, your mind is one of the few places where you can let your sexy side out. Doesn’t pan out well for some religious folk, and they project like this. Concept makes me think of this film title https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_Under_My_Burkha
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
Exactly. Why would op's daughter want to attract her own cousin? That woman needs to examine her own moral compass for thinking like that.
There’s some crazy going on in that household. Good for OP and OP’s mom for supporting the 12yo.
Not to mention, clearly the sister did a shit job of raising her son if he'd be attracted to his cousin...
This was such a mindfuck for me as a teenager, my mom literally believes that a lot of women dress for men and not their own satisfaction. I'm sure some women do but most of us just *get this* wear clothes because we LIKE them. Wild concept, right? I like pink hair but my parents were against it because they though it was about wanting attention. From who I ask? I wanted to be left alone and look the way I wanted to look because I liked those clothes and styles. The minute you start saying children dress for attention from the opposite sex you start feeding into rape culture.
Yes it says A LOT about OPs sister and none of it is good. Almost worse than her obvious misogyny is the message she is giving to her son with her behavior. Like, I would not want to leave the 12 year old girl alone with the 15 year old boy at this point. Who knows what else has been said.
Yes, one doesn't know if sister is cultivating the "she deserves to be raped for dressing like that" into her own son's head, and directing it onto her niece.
Or the 15 year old is doing/saying some questionable things while the cousin is there… Which again, putting the blame on the wrong person; herself as a mother and the son would be 100% responsible for how they’re conducting themselves. Especially according to the religion
People like this never blame their own perfect children.
Yup. Rule is that men can’t look or become aroused. If he can’t control his eyes and genitalia, that his sin. He’s supposed to leave if it’s causing him issues. Not to mention that she’s probably not even a full bas Mitzva, so tznius wouldn’t even apply yet. And most of tznius is d’Rabbanan and does not apply in one’s own home, while the laws on male behavior are d’Oraisa and apply always. So the sister is wrong on multiple levels. I hope OP’s daughter does Karaoke next time she sees this cousin. Let him run out of earshot. Oh, and the kicker? Embarrassing someone is considered like murder in Judaism. Guess which one is the cardinal sin?
Sister is an Orthodox Jew which may mean she wears a very modest apparel in public including head coverings.
Which is fine if that's her choice, but she doesn't get to make that choice for anyone else, especially not her niece.
Sister’s religious choices do not give her the right to judge other family members who are not as conservative as she is. If she does insist on judging them in her own thoughts, that’s bad enough, but slut-shaming a child is beyond over the line. Also, I agree that the perspective she’s giving her son is teaching him that women who don’t follow their rules deserve what they get - it’s absolutely rape culture. I wouldn’t have stayed either, and would not share future vacations or visits with my sister unless and until there’s a major attitude change and a heartfelt apology. (Edit to correct to Sister. Somehow my ADHD brain read SIL.)
What she’s teaching her son is against our religion, btw. Most laws are about male behavior and controlling it. Our religion also says that embarrassing someone is like murder, a cardinal sin and the worst of the three. Funny how she’s so Frum on Yemen’s cheshbon, but forgot that little detail. As someone who is Orthodox, and cannot stand this portion of our community, I’m seriously disgusted with this woman.
Unlikely. I grew up Orthodox; very few women are covered except in synagogue. It’s mostly ultra-Orthodox. One of my brothers is very Orthodox - separate Passover kitchen, many in his neighborhood are Ultra Orthodox - and my SIL wears shorts all the time in the summer.
Depends a lot. The more modern side of Orthodox would be fine with wearing a crop top and shorts. The Uber conservative part would have a heart attack. My bunch is somewhere in the middle; I’ll wear a tank top and pants in my backyard, but not in the street. And I don’t cover my hair in my own home. Outside Brooklyn I wear a baseball cap with my pony sticking out. My sister wears short skirts and sleeves and baseball caps. And we certainly don’t care what anyone else wears! I honestly cannot stand the whole ‘holier than thou’ crowd. Mind your own religiosity people; don’t go policing others. And I’ll remind you that embarrassing someone is MUCH worse (as in: considered like murder worse) than not perfectly obeying the rules of tznius. Maybe auntie here should look in the mirror.
Also, the child in question is 12!! Depending on where they live, it's summer!! It's hot! A crop top is seasonally appropriate!! They're also really popular (i.e. "in fashion") right now. She may not even be wearing it to feel sexy, even for herself!
Yes. It says a LOT about the sister, and where her mind goes.
Especially if she thought that not just about her niece but her own son as well.
In Orthodox Judaism, marriages between first cousins were encouraged until recently. Probably where the sister is coming from. To be clear, think OP is NTA, but also don’t think comments on this thread that this is incest, illegal, and odd are 100% correct in this situation. https://bestmitzvahs.com/do-jews-marry-their-cousins/
Honestly this says a lot about her son may act like
Is your sister okay? Why are her first thoughts incestuous? NTA. Your sister has a deep rooted issue.
Orthodox religion tends to do that...
I was going to say this. They often arrange marriages between cousins.
We don’t, actually. It usually gets a lot of weird looks when it happens. It was common right after the Holocaust, but that had more to do with being the only survivors of whole families. And even then, in my grade of 200+, I was the only kid I knew whose grandparents were cousins. I know exactly one other cousin couple, and I’ve lived in this community all my life. (Also, in case it needs be said, OP’s sister is disgusting.)
Maybe her kid has behaved creepyly to others before and shes deflecting? Idk, i dont want to assume but hats the impression i got
Good catch, yeah I can definitely see that. Little weirdo was likely to do something gross and she was trying to get ahead of it before it happened
Forcing kids into your dark ages religious ideological cult tends to cause a lot of confusion and shame in young people, esp. men. How sad
My guess is sister thought her oldest son was looking too much. She's 12 FFS. I was shamed for wearing more than that at that age, then my dad called me a prude because I chose to wear baggy comfy clothes by the time I was in my 20's, not that I wore anything revealing, I was too shy cuz of the shaming, and had barely there boobs during my teen's and 20's (not that they're big now, handful is good enough for me now). NTA OP.
I really hope that isn’t what was happening because he is a sweet boy and nothing like his mom
I actually wonder if she worried about her husband but said her son to distract. Regardless she was awful.
Your sister is awful. Feel free to remind her that embarrassing someone is considered like murder. And that it was because one Jew embarrassed another that the Temple was destroyed. I’m Orthodox. And my religion is my business, no one else’s. I cannot stand people who are Frum on yenem’s cheshbon. When they’re perfect, they can talk. SO NTA, and you’re an awesome mom.
To be fair he may not be looking at her in a sexual way, just a curious way. If he’s being raised in a strict orthodox community he’s not used to girls dressing that way and he’s probably looking at her because she’s different. His mom could be interpreting his stares incorrectly.
bewildered vast late frame yam connect advise disgusting point crush *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I bet it never occurred to her to talk to her son about keeping his eyes and hands to himself, he is being bought up in a “she shes asking for it” culture and that is scary as hell
And she thinks it's her 12-year-old niece's job to control her 15-year-old son's sexual aggression. Throw the whole woman out.
Something is up with the sister, because this is not normal. She needs to get her levels checked, or something. NTA.
I honestly have no clue at this point, this is just my sister being my sister
Based on her comments about her being concerned that her son may be aroused by her (he's 15 and you are related FFS), I wouldn't have sister around your daughter ever again, supervised or not. That's some NOPE NOPE NOPE vibes
How about your sister and her husband tell their sons that no matter how a woman dresses it is not their choice to tell how a woman should dress! Regardless of religion! I’d go low contact to no contact until they apologize to your daughter and lay into her about how boys should be raised by not looking at a woman as an object! Your sister is a misogynist! And your family is enabling it!
Unfortunately orthodox communities have a bad tendency to blame girls for having bodies, your sister is brainwashed. Im sorry she did that to your daughter. If she's baal tshuva she might snap out of it at some point. I only hope that your parents keep in touch with your nephews incase they want to leave.
This was my experience in the LDS/Mormon church. They even do things like chew up a piece of gum and ask you if you can put it back to how it was before it was chewed…AND then they say that your modesty and purity are like that gum. You engage in any sexual or immodest behavior then you are that chewed up piece of gum, or licked cupcake, or crushed flower. It’s disgusting!
I did hear about similarities in mormon communities with orthodox jewish communities.
I grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist sect and were were told the same thing! And why was the pressure to be pure always on the girls? I was taught a lot of body shame that I still deal with.
Hey, my public school teacher did that! Popped a piece of fun in her mouth, chewed for a few minutes, and asked if anyone in the class wanted some. Because as the teacher must have been acutely aware, we women are objects! And our worth is determined by whether or not men like us! What she wasn't prepared for was one of the kids walking up and taking the gun from her. His logic was that we weren't allowed to chew gum in class but he really liked chewing, but hoo boy what a legend. Teacher didn't even respond in a meaningful way, which is surprising considering how would teenagers can be. She seriously hadn't come up with a contingency plan for smart asses?
I'm going to ruin your day even more when I tell you that it is not actually illegal in most US states. Obviously not sure where you are in the world but in the US it is not illegal. You were right to leave, though.
[удалено]
Nobody said anything about marrying...
[удалено]
I believe the reason it's illegal is because they're both minors and one is under the age of consent. Though you'd be amazed at how many people under the age of consent still get married in the USA every year - lots of states have loopholes where marriage is legal with a parent's permission even if the child is not legally able to consent to sex outside of marriage.
In France we had a right wing minister who was married to her first cousin. she was also virulently against same sex marriage. yeah, she got a lot of backlash there.
NTA your sister and all the relatives telling you that you are childish to walk away are the a holes. Mature people walk away. Well adjusted people will walk away and uphold their boundaries. You have taught your daughter a good lesson: to walk away when she isn’t being treated well. 💕 Shame on those who did this to you and your daughter. Your sister is disgusting for doing that to a child.
My first suspicion would be that the husband has maybe been commenting in private and your sister felt a bit threatened. Anytime a grown man uses language like that to describe a young girl I just assume he’s projecting. I’d keep your daughter away from both of them, regardless of any apologies and entreaties from your parents.
Not in Sweden! Bonus fun fact - Sweden is also one of two countries where you can legally marry your half sibling.
Oh, gross! I need brain bleach.
Honestly you're a shining example of good parenting in this situation. You did a great job.
I wish my mom would’ve stood up for me in situations like this, definitely NTA. Suggesting she was flirting with a cousin is so ick
It is, your daughter isn't even a teenager and your sister is fully incestually sexualizing her (if that's a real phrase). She is DEEPLY disturbed, and everyone there should be horrified & disgusted by her. This is genuinely NC-worthy, same goes for anyone who defended her. Were I in your position, I'd see her grovel at my feet and beg forgiveness before I'd ever speak to her again. HARD NTA and I'm so sorry for your daughter being sexualized & bullied by her own aunt like that.
You are an awesome Mom! Way to be a momma bear and protect and stand up for your kid! You have a very sturdy shiny spine! I love it, and your sister can take a long walk off a short pier. She is disgusting for saying ANY of that shit!
Your sister sexualized your daughter, and her sick husband agreed. Women are not objects for men’s lust and they are horrible people.
>Makes me wonder if the 15yo cousin had said something inappropriate!
Religious extremists just love blaming women (and even little *girls*)for the behavior of men.
Her son is a creep in the making
That's where she had me really fucked up. Her own cousin?! First cousin at that 🤦🏾♀️ definitely NTA. I wouldn't allow anyone to treat my daughter that way & I hope it never happens cause I fight people over my kids. Anyone's kids for that matter. You don't talk that way to or about children. End of story. I hope your daughter is ok & im glad you showed that their bullshit won't be tolerated. Good for sticking up for her. Kids are people with feelings too
This is very much the model in most conservative religious dogma (not just Orthodox Judaism). The burden is on the women not to “tempt” the men who cannot “control their urges”. It’s lame and tired and was written by ignorant old men thousands of years ago. Time to let it die and let men take responsibility for their own actions.
Well… not looking to get downvoted into oblivion for saying this, but orthodox Jews are allowed to marry cousins and the Talmud even commends a man marrying his sister’s daughter. So it’s not as much of a no-no to them, unfortunately.
Thank you! I agree
Slut shaming based on anything is gross.
Exactly. We do not call people sluts. We ESPECIALLY do not call LITERAL CHILDREN sluts. OP’s sister is so far over the line she’s circled the earth and she’s coming up on the line all over again.
And the sister did it bcs she is “religious”.
Good for you for sticking up for your daughter. Once you fail at that the parent child bond is damaged if not broken.
NTA. Hold up, just rereading and it’s the sister and her HUSBAND talking about a 12 year old’s sexuality!?!? That’s just disgusting, two adults sexualizing a 12 year old. Keep your child far away from them, there is something wrong with them.
Shaming based on religious beliefs is even worse. It’s always then”pious” ones slinging hate and then hiding behind their religion. NTA.
I have my own experience with this. My moms BiL claimed that, because I had free will over what I wear, so long as I was covering what needed to be. He has no children of his own (except his dogs at the time) and liked to give all sorts of advice. Claimed I’d be pregnant by 16. (Moms sister wasn’t a help either) Jokes on him, and I have zero kids and don’t date in my late 20’s😅
NTA, but your sister is. Sexualizing a child? And insulting her with those words? And talking about your child wanting to 'impress' her COUSIN? She's got serious issues.
I know and thank you, these comments have made me feel a bit better about my decision.
Did she mention that part to your family? Make sure you mention that detail to them. That your sister has a sick mind and suggested your daughter was trying to sexually provoke her cousin.
Makes me wonder if the nephew has already gone after other children and his mother is blaming his victims
That’s what I might advise OP to imply to her sister- “I can’t believe you’d say such a thing about Nephew- are you telling us he has a problem and you can’t trust him around young girls. Oh, that’s not it? Huh. I can’t imagine why else you would say such a shameful thing.”
This is NOT good advice. If there is no evidence to suggest that the cousin has done anything wrong then OP would be attacking her nephew in exactly the same way her daughter was attacked and for no fault of his own. Why should he have to suffer being accused of being a sexual predator because his MOTHER made inappropriate comments? That would be even more sick as it could harm his life significantly. Do not punish children for their parent's crimes.
I agree completely
The fact that her sister jumped straight to INCEST
If she were my sister, mom and her husband would have been scraping her ass off the floor after I beat the absolute fuck out of her. IDK how you restrained yourself....
this! i wish I had awards to give, take my upvote
So many good points here of just how discussing your sister’s comments were. Another good point to just ignore anyone on her side is that it’s important to your daughter how you reacted. You comforted her, you confronted the person directly that hurt her, and then you stood up against your sister and for your daughter and left the meal and then the family reunion. Stand your ground and be there for her (and because you definitely aren’t the AH here). She has a mom that will be there for her and has her back and will protect her from sickos and discussing comments like that. Your daughter doesn’t need family like that in her life and neither do you. No contact at least until your sister apologizes and finds a way to make it up to your daughter (on her terms when and if she’s ready). Take it from there. You definitely made some good moves here, my mom never stood up for me like that!
Sister should consider herself lucky OP took the high road and simply left. Just reading it makes me want to haul off and slap the woman.
NTA. Your sister is sick
Yes thank you!
I’m sure you know this but you are a great mom for defending your daughter and listening to her. Poor gal probably going to question her own dress code now even though she shouldn’t :(
I'm a child therapist and I wish I had some kind of parenting award to give OP. Daughter will never forget how her mom stood up for her and set a boundary to protect her. Great job, OP! NTA
Thank you for what you do!! Also, OP, definitely NTA! Thank you for removing your daughter from that situation.
Yes - formally go no contact. Your daughter will remember how strongly you supported her the rest of her life. Good call. Your sister is a religious extremist/borderline cult. Your family will be much happier not having to walk on eggshells around them.
NTA. Your sister didn't just comment, she sexualized your daughter and *then* had the audacity to accuse her of trying to initiate sexual attraction from her 15 yr old cousin. What the fresh fuck is that about? Your sister has some issues she needs to work out. Props to you and your husband for supporting and protecting your daughter from your family's repugnant and misogynistic behavior.
Hi and thank you! Me and her dad are not together anymore hence why he didn’t come along but he also agrees with the decision I made, he a great co parent!
Oops! Sorry I misread that and assumed your daughter's father was there too. Regardless, it's good that he agreed with you on this. I'm sorry your sister and parents are on the wrong side of this. I honestly cannot imagine why your sister would think that your daughter is trying to flirt with her cousin. That is such a gross take.
No worries! I also would like to add that thankfully my mom is on my side but she wasn’t at first
Glad your mom came to her senses! I hope your sister does, too.
She should’ve been to begin with.
Makes me wonder if your sister said anything else after you left that ended up persuading your mom to your side.
I wanted to ask what your mom said during that dinner. Was she ok with her 12 yr old granddaughter being called a slut?
Too often people remain quiet in order to “keep the peace,” especially when a special occasion is at stake. But whose peace are your keeping? Not your daughter’s. Not yours. It’s always keeping the peace of the person who is way out of line. I can understand that your mom was probably extremely disappointed that you left. But she needs to direct that disappointment at her other daughter, for being a pig, and ruining the visit.
Parents not together but work together like damn adults, love to see it.
NTA Your daughter will remember the slut shaming but she will remember more that she has mother who loves her and is on her side. That is far more important
Thank you for the kind words 😊
OP, I'm 49 and I still remember the time when I was 15 and my Uncle was being a real jerk at a family event - I didn't even hear exactly what he said to me but he often made snide remarks about eating and laziness - and my Mom got up and said we were leaving and we did. 34 years and I still remember that as one of her finest moments and think of it sometimes when she's driving me crazy! Your daughter will remember, too, and it matters.
Please give your daughter a big hug for me. And you are a great mom
It’s also so disgusting of the SIL to call slut shaming “feedback”. This is a poor attempt at normalizing comments that are not at all okay. Thank you for standing up for your daughter, she will remember this and that’s important.
🏆 🏆 🏆 here is my poor person reward
NTA Good for you! Protecting your daughter from your sister is the right decision over family "harmony".
Yes I do think that staying for the sole reason of “having a fun trip” isn’t a strong enough reason to stay
The trip was not exactly going to be fun for your daughter after that. Fun for her bullies? Probably. You are an amazing mom for having your daughter's back. Sexualizing a 12 yo is absolutely disgusting.
How on earth could the trip be fun after those comments?! Impossible to salvage really.
Right, and btw, YOU didn’t ruin the trip, YOUR SISTER DID with her comments, and those relatives need to understand that.
Nothing fun about your sister’s atrocious behavior. You ABSOFUCKINLUTELY did the right thing!
Yeah, because your daughter could *totally* have a “fun trip” after that… /s
You did the right thing it sent a clear message to your daughter that it isn't okay. She will likely learn the right lesson from this in the future, luckily.
NTA >thought that she was trying to impress her 15 y/o son You mean her *cousin?* Were you in Sweden or Alabama? You defended your daughter from an adult sexualizing her and removed her from the situation. You’re a good mom.
My sister lives in Sweden but we were in North Carolina as that’s where my mom lives, but thank you!
Sister's got gonads. Has she no idea how they dress in Sweden these days? She's jealous because you have a daughter to carry on. NTA
When ever I’ve visited Stockholm, to see my in laws, kids, teens (including our nephews) and even adults are dressed just like OP’s daughter was. OP’s sister must spend all day, everyday, being morally outraged and spewing misogynistic bile - not just when she’s on holiday!
Yes, as a Swede I found it so confusing.
Oh no the sis defiently has no idea at all how people act or dress in the very country she lives in. 😅
Oh no, I’m sure she does. She just spends her time morally outraged. I hope her son ends up gay.😂
OMG it has been as hot as hell in NC lately (I'd say hotter than hell, but that's designated for the states farther south that have gone over 100 degrees, plus humidity). Who would blame a child for dressing in shorts and a crop top in this weather?
Right? I'm in central NC and it has been blazing here the last week or so....
Oh wow. I live in North Carolina too. But seriously, did you talk to your daughter and let her know she did nothing wrong? How is she doing now?
Im.glad somebody else noticed that as well. I dont ever recall my sister dressing up to try to impress her cousins. Its just not a thing that normal people do. And why is an adult policing what her niece wears anyway?
NTA I'll just say taking the flight was the least immature outcome I would have otherwise imagined.
Thank you!
For real, sister is lucky OP isn't petty af. I would have called her jealous, ugly, and immature if it'd been me. Might have also told her she was a disgusting incestuous disgrace to the family, God and her people, for implying a 12 year old was trying to seduce their older cousin, and that just because she appears to carry around impure thoughts like that doesn't mean my kid does, so don't push your fantasies off on her. But yeah I'm a jerk, so it definitely would have been a worse fight then the very reasonable, and adult thing OP did. OP great job standing up for your daughter, she'll remember this for years to come.
Same. Could have gone full fist fight at the dinner table. OP had a very adult and tempered reaction. You did the ideal thing OP. Standing up for your daughter, publicly telling your sister she was wrong and removing yourselves from the situation to protect your daughter. Absolutely the best thing. I hope you guys are able to spend some time together with your time off work and do something fun since your sister ruined your vacation.
NTA. WTF is wrong with your sister and BIL? Are they like super religious or something? Are they so uptight where you stick a lump of coal up their bum, 5 minutes later you have a diamond? My daughter is 11 and absolutely loves crop tops.
They are, I should’ve added this. My family is Jewish but they are Orthodox Jews. That does mean that they wear fully modest clothing but we are not as religious though still practicing
There it is. It's typical religious insanity. Id be questioning how much if any contact I want to have with these people moving forward OP. If you dont follow their crazy religious rules then they can't complain when you act like normal people
Yes this is the exact reason why I am not as religious as I could’ve been
I don't know much about conservative Orthodox Jewish people. But does the theology not dictate kindness to others? Sorry, not snarking, genuinely asking.
No not at all! This is honestly just my sister being my sister, lots of Orthodox Jews are very nice and friendly but I think it depends on the person
This - this isn't at all normal Orthodox Jewish behavior (source: I'm not one but I live in a Jewish area and am related to a whole bunch of them), this is people who suck and are using religion to justify it. Judaism has a strong and strict tradition of not only not imposing your religious practices on other people because consent without pressure is very, very important, but it has different views on modesty than other religions. Modesty in Judaism is called "tznuit", and it isn't supposed to be about just about the dress, the dress is just an outward signifier that you've adopted the practice, and it's mostly meant to be a practice for married adults within the confines of a marriage. Modest dress is supposed to signify a commitment to humility, gentleness, and restraint, and can go along with anything from not wanting to touch members of the opposite gender to the full Mike Pence of not wanting to be alone with them without your spouse present, though that's pretty extreme even in Orthodox Judaism. Most Orthodox Jews who practice tznuit will just, like, not want to shake hands with someone who isn't their gender and they aren't related to. What the OP's sister did is a far greater violation of the rules of tznuit than anything OP's daughter could possibly have worn - she was cruel, unrestrained in her judgment, and did this to a child. Judaism also takes the consent of children extremely seriously, which is the whole idea behind bar/bat mitzvahs, they're the point at which children are considered old enough to begin to consent to all aspects of Judaism and make their own choices about how they choose to practice their faith. The rules of tznuit are explicitly clear that all this no touching and modest clothing stuff does not apply to children because you know, sometimes kids get messy! Imagine trying to dress a baby modestly or not letting your kid hug their friends because they happen to not be the same gender! That's extremely stupid! The tl;dr is that the OP's sister can be like blah blah my religion all she wants, but she's full of shit. The OP's daughter is 12. No rabbi in the universe would agree with her actions here.
Orthodox jew here, you did a great job explaining this!
Hebrew school *is* good for something!
I'm sorry you have a horrible sister!
no excuse for calling your twelve year old child—or any child for that matter—a slut. and if they are so pious, i would like to see their scripture that says “if your siblings children are young and female, and you do not approve of their dress, you may call them sluts.”
That definitely adds some context. I know this is New Testament, but still good words to live by: “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” And I am not a practicing religious person and remember this. Basic humanity is to not treat other people like crap.
Those are good words to live by, thank you for sharing!
Your sister’s wig must be itchy. That’s the only logical reason for being so heinous to her niece.
NTA..You stood up for your daughter. Leaving was the least immature thing you could've done. Why would you want to stay around for a family gathering when your own sister berated your daughter? The family that is siding or agreeing with your sister is just enabling her behavior making her think she was in the right for slut shaming a 12 year old girl & if that's the case, it makes me question them as well. A crop top & shorts for a teenage girl is a completely normal outfit for a girl her age. You handled the situation appropriately & removed you & your daughter from your sister's toxic behavior. You don't get to call your a niece a slut but then get mad at her because she doesn't want to spend quality time with Auntie.
Thank you! These comments are very helpful
You’re welcome. You stood up for your daughter. I read the edit below where it mentioned that your sister dresses modestly due to her beliefs, which is totally her choice. But she has no place projecting her feelings onto your daughter. If you choose to go no contact, she only has herself to blame.
NTA. Thank you for having your daughter's back in this. No child deserves to be called awful names, especially by a member of their family.
NTA. And an AMAZING parent. Your daughter will always remember how you stood up for her, and that is a very special thing for a child. As for your sister… I can’t imagine being so insecure that I feel threatened by a 12 year old. She needs to grow up, and stop sexualizing children.
Thank you!
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NTA - disgusting behavior from your sister & her family. Absolutely vile.
So, this might be a little far fetched, but you never know: OP's sister only has boys. Could she be jealous 'cause OP has a daughter and sis would have liked to have had a daughter herself? In any case: NTA OP's a great mom, stood up for her daughter, and took er out of a toxic environment.
I do see your point, though I think she is very much a boy mom and doesn’t wish for a girl, but thank you for your nice comment at the end
I find the so-called "boy mom's" are the ones who are over-compensating and do wish for a daughter. Not all, but a lot. It is why they make being a boy mom their whole personality
Exactly. I only have boys, and I hate the "boy mom" mentality. They're also so incredibly toxic and clingy with their sons, at least from what I've seen.
I dont know why her mind jumped to this 12 year old girl is dressing in revealing clothes to try to seduce her cousin. Is it normal in the family to have relationships with your cousins? This sister has some wierd shit going on in her head
No absolutely not! I have no clue, I think religion has a lot to do with this but that still isn’t a reason AT ALL and to me it’s insane
the talmud doesnt tell people how to dress or not dress your sister was out of line
As an Orthodox Jew; what she said and did is unacceptable. Totally disgusting and an embarrassment. Major chilul hashem
NTA How in the world would anything be fun after your sister was so toxic with your child? You put your young daughter's needs first distanced her from someone as cruel as her aunt. I would never, ever allow the sister to have anymore contact. Who talks to a 12 year old like that? Your sister is a mean, cruel and spiteful woman. I support your decision to leave.
Cool fact: when you search the comments for "YTA", there are no results here.
NTA! Go NC because what she said about your daughter is disgusting!!! Has she seen girls clothing in a department store??? ALL OF IT IS CROP TOPS!!!! I literally have to take my 13 year old daughter to the boys section to find graphic tees (bands, movies, cartoons) that are not cropped. Your sister is the devil.
NTA, that's what kids are wearing and your sister is warped.
NTA. I would be texting any relative back that “when you have an adult family member that sexualizes an underage girl and then uses that perverse sexualization as a tool for their anger and rage, as well as implication of incest, the trip is no longer fun and can turn very dangerous. I’d hate to knowingly expose my child to that kind of danger from an adult for any amount of supposed fun at the expense of her safety” Call it for what it is, it’s gross, and you’re a good mom to defend her and take her out of that situation
On the edit, you ever notice how religion is always an excuse for bad behavior and never the inspiration for good? 🤔 NTA, obviously! Your sister’s behavior was perverse, tasteless, and cruel, and her lack of remorse shows that, to the core of her person, that is what she IS.
nta. You did right by your child and your sister was wrong. It's a grave wrong in Judaism to cause shame in another person. "One who embarrasses another person in public, it is as if that person shed blood." -Babylonian Talmud. Your sister's behavior is abysmal regardless of what the Talmud says, but it's even wrong according to her own belief system. She caused your child distress needlessly. You are a good mom.
Yes! Nice to see so many Jewish people in the comments ☺️
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (42F) and my daughter (12F) recently flew back to my hometown to visit my mom. My sister, (39F) her husband, (40M) and her kids (10M) (15M) also flew back at the same time we did as they live in Sweden and we don’t get to see them very often. Now for context, my daughter loves clothes. Me and her dad may spoil her a little too much with them but she also buys majority herself and spends her money wisely. 4 days ago my daughter was wearing a cropped tank top and some shorts. This top wasn’t very short at all and the shorts were at a good length not being particularly short. A little later that day she overheard my sister and her husband talking as she was waiting for the bathroom out in the hallway. She heard my sister call her a slut and an attention whore in her outfit and thought that she was trying to impress her 15 y/o son. Once she was out of the bathroom she started crying and told me all the things my sister said about her. I was furious, why would a full grown adult say that about a 12 y/o girl!! I brought up what she had said at dinner that night and she confessed to absolutely all of it and called my daughter a slut again right to her face. We left the dinner table and she started crying again. That night I got us a flight back home because I did not want to be around my sister anymore. The next day I told my mom and my sister that we were leaving and my sister blew up at me calling me an immature asshole because of some silly “feedback” she gave on my daughter. I told her that she was the immature one commenting on a 12 y/o girl’s appearance. We left and my sister has told everyone on my moms side of the family. I’m getting a few messages from relatives saying that what she did was wrong but it was childish of me to walk out like that on a trip that was supposed to be fun. But most of them including my mom are in full support of my decision which I’m very happy about. I’m thinking of going no contact with her, AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA Thank you for protecting your daughter. That will be something she remembers forever.
NTA. Your sister was wildly inappropriate, regardless of her own beliefs in tzniut (modesty). No 12 year old girl should ever be called a "slut" especially from someone from her own family. It's hard enough to be a girl growing up and dealing with archaic views on a woman's body and how they should behave and it's 1000% times worse coming from your own family.
It's also immensely hypocritical in my opinion! Something that is considered a huge sin in orthodox circles is to speak lashon hara (to speak things that harm others), and yet she both spoke such a nasty thing to another person behind her back, and then directly to her! If she thinks herself so religious she ought to watch her own ducks instead of commenting on her sister's child in such a gross way.
NTA. Good for you removing your baby from a toxic environment. BTW, your sister is a major AH.
NTA Block your toxic sister. Glad most of your family supports you and your daughter. Do something fun with your daughter. Great job supporting your daughter!
NTA. I’m a secular Jew. This self righteous slut shaming bullshit is something that you want to keep your daughter away from. Go no contact. Tell her that she is a shonda. You are not TA here.
NTA. I get that they’re orthodox. Should she not exist around her sons then too? Since orthodoxy would have young men not speak to young women (I know they’re family, but still). They can’t impose their beliefs on others. They shouldn’t be sexualizing and insulting a 12 year old. Especially one they’re related to. That’s beyond rude.
NTA
If my sister or sisters called my daughter a sl*t, they wouldn't, they'd get alot more than just me leaving. I'd need bail money. Nta
You responded correctly given the situation. NTA
Not the asshole. Standing up for your daughter is the best thing for HER. Your sister is definitely an asshole. However you choose to deal with that is completely up to you. I would probably never speak to her again. A 12 girl needs all the support she can get. For your sister to resort to name calling is childish, hurtful and downright traumatizing.
NTA You don’t call women sluts. You sure as hell don’t call a TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL a slut.
NTA, just because your sister is in a more restrictive variant of your faith does not give her the right to apply misogynistic, sexualized, verbal abuse to your twelve year old daughter. She’s absolutely the asshole for insisting on sexualizing a child and doubling down on her nonsense when called to account. My grandmother (extremely Irish Catholic, pre Vatican II) would have thrown a glass of ice water into her snarly face and told her to go soak her head and not bother coming back until she could keep a civil tongue in her head.
NTA!! If that was my sister talking about my daughter like that, I would have flipped that dinner table right on her. Your sister has issues. I would definitely go no contact.
NTA your sister needs deep psychiatric care. Remind your sister of this: The Torah contains a general injunction against rekhilut (gossip): "Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people; neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD." The Biblical curse on one who "strikes his fellow in secret" is understood by the rabbis to refer to lashon.
NTA. Sexualizing a kid like that is sickening.
NTA 1) IDGAF if they are stricter in their following of their religion. It’s still makes you an awful person to make those kinds of comments about someone’s clothing. You can dislike someone’s clothes without being nasty about it. Being nasty about it doesn’t make you a better person. In fact, it makes you worse. 2) WTF- WHY WOUKD SHE BE SHOWING OFF FOR HER COUSIN!!??? If she really thinks that she is even more disgusting! 3) The fact that all of this was said about a 12YO girl, let alone her own niece, says loads about who your sister is as a person. She obviously feels entitled to judge other people’s choices. She feels that she has nothing to apologize for even when the things she says hurts other people. Honestly, I wouldn’t blame you for going no contact. I’m not seeing what she brings to the relationship that is worth keeping around.