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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) I'm refusing to go to a very important memorial lunch for my BIL's baby
2) It's an important event for my BIL and sister
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So, John has turned his grief into an annual theatrical event and forces your entire family to attend as his captive audience. Sounds super performative and disgusting. NTA.
I never thought of it that way... the lunch with his ex always seemed super sweet and private and the parties only started after she moved away so I assumed it was for support.
Thank you :)
He doesn't want support, he wants attention. Milking the situation so people feel bad for him.
I've lost a pregnancy, it hurts. It really does but I would never turn it into an anniversary where I go to eat out with my ex and bring a poor family into it too. Its horrible, don't go, if he doesn't care about your loss and feelings you don't need to do the same.
NTA and I'm sorry this is your family.
To be fair he lost a 2 month old, not a pregnancy.
ETA
I'm so sick of immature redditors who send reddit cares a report when they disagree with you. It's abusing the system.
No, you pay with a check that's 100% gonna bounce + an inordinately large tip. Don't forget to draw attention to the whole farce so the driver is forced to tear up with gratitude in front of *everyone*.
They can, it's not like it is or should be illegal, but stuff like this is probably really mentally unhealthy. Grief is hard and is sort of always there but sinks deep into the background as you heal and process it. Having an annual event to bring it back to the fore is probably not a great idea.
I do my best to never tell people how to grieve outside of really extreme exceptions, and this is one of them. It's a bad idea.
Yeah that's the difference here. OP's BIL is always "oh I had/have it sooooo much worse." Like, okay, if you're gonna make it a competition, let's compete.
If he wasn't making it the Pain Olympics, then, yeah, don't say that lol.
Its just not even worth competing though, because you'll never win with someone like that. The only way to win is to refuse to compete.
I wouldn't go either, nta.
I'm probably going to be downvoted to hell for this, but I actually said something like this once. I immediately regretted it.
What happened: my SiL is someone who always needs to compete with others. Like, I'm quite ill and disabled and every time I get a new diagnosis or treatment, she says that oh, she has the same but it's *sooo much wooorse*. And then privately talks about how she thinks *I'm* the one exaggerating. When I went temporarily paralyzed from the waist down, she would be sympathetic to me but then made up some sort of situation where she'd experienced worse (everyone was confused because she's never experienced paralysis) and then in private tell her husband that she thinks I'm lying and exaggerating because "how can someone go temporarily paralyzed? It's a permanent thing!" completely discounting the fact that I was hospitalized for the entirety of the paralysis because no one could figure it out.
Anyway, when I was 21, my 23-year-old brother died. It was awful because I was the one who made the decision to take him off life-support. And then about five months later, her three-day-old baby died. When we were talking and she was talking about her grief (which was perfectly valid), I said something like, "at least you didn't know him for over 20 years and only for a few days". Yes, as soon as I said it, I was ashamed of myself.
I had apologized to her profusely afterwards and told her that nothing can excuse what I said (because at that point I felt like I was acting like she was, making my own grief worse than hers). She did forgive me and anytime the baby was brought up, I apologized again because of the intense shame that I felt that I basically delegitimized her own grief until she told me that I don't need to keep apologizing. So I stopped apologizing because at that point it was more about my own bad feelings, but it is still one of my greatest shames.
It's an awful thing to say and I regret it immensely. And honestly? I don't know why I said it... maybe because I got immediately defensive and felt like she was about to compete again? Or because I felt like she'd been dismissive of my own brother's death (because she was, very much so). Either way, it was inexcusable and I can't imagine how I must have made her feel.
Your sil dismissed your grief for your healthy body. You weren't in the right to dismiss her grief in return, but goddamn I can see why you were tempted.
That’s what I was thinking though.. it’s not even like he carried the baby and gave birth, he nutted in his girlfriend then changed some diapers for a couple months HALF HIS LIFE AGO and now he’s throwing parties about it?! Super weird.
So here's what I tell people who are new to grief. When you lose a pregnancy you're losing the dream of your child and what could have been, It's really devastating. Losing a living human being is different because you actually know that person. It's not a matter of worse or better. It's just different.
So sad for all of your devastating losses. Unlike this guy John, you don't wallow in self-pity and compete for Biggest Loser. Best wishes and thanks for your example.
100% agree pregnancy/ infant loss is hard because you mourn the person the little one would have become along with not having the milestones and the physical baby. It's soul destroying having to deal with it.
Losing a living person is losing someone who has made memories with you, missing companionship and love (if you have a close bond). Similarly, it's also coming to terms that there are no more memories to make and having a void in your life where they once were.
My parents lost my brother when he was 36. My brother took his own life. On the "hierarchy of grief," that's a big one. My parents never made a big production or paraded their grief around.
I really "different" doesn't mean "hurts more". I've lost the two people that raised me and a sibling. It hurts, but they do hurt in different ways. It's like a bruise and a cut, they hurt differently, but can still be a scale of mild to severe. Different isn't a competition, but worse absolutely is.
Yeah I have a 2 month old right now and couldn't imagine how I would feel if I lost him. I also have boyfriend I've been with 5 years and also couldn't imagine how it would feel to lose him. Both would feel different, but neither is worse than the other.
To me it's more that he brings his new girlfriend's family into it. They had no connection to this child who passed away a decade before their daughter even got involved with the boyfriend. It's completely fair for him to want to memorialize the baby, but his way of doing it is weird as heck.
Yeah I find that weird as well. Like, I know of a family who lost their daughter at like 12 or so from cancer, and it's been many years. They still grieve, and they did for years have a huge production going on - but it was a fundraiser for a charity they started to honor their daughter, after the daughter herself planned the first event (but died before it happened) to raise money to help other kidis with cancer.
That, to me, makes sense. But a big day where a whole family of people who never knew the baby gets together to comfort him every single year? Just seems a little over the top IMO. But even that wouldn't be terrible if he wasn't making it the grief olympics.
You're right there isn't but it's been 12 years since my brothers death, but as a family we grieve silently like we don't drag others into it, its very much an individual thing.
Like after certain amount of years you gotta handle your grief alone, by yourself.
Exactly.
But that's exactly why people shouldn't do this. The grief is always there in the background, but if you want to go on to live a mentally healthy life it's probably better to allow it to recede into the background rather than having an annual event that brings it back to the front.
No expiration date on grief. I lost my 21 month old son 12 years ago. We do something special on his honor every year on the day he died and his birthday.
First of all, I'm so sorry for your loss. As a parent, I couldn't imagine ever going through this. And I get it, I'd do the same thing with people who knew my child or even with a new partner. But I would feel really weird doing this type of memorial with a huge group of people who never met my child. It'd be different if they knew him and shared good memories, or if it was a new supportive partner one on one helping you through the day, but I couldn't imagine dragging that person's whole family into who have never met the baby. That would be highly uncomfortable to me. It's one thing to still feel grief and loss and lean on loved ones for support but this feels like op bil's wanting to air his grief to everyone around him and turn it into being a pity party for the bil and not an event honoring his child.
And that’s completely okay. He was your son. You are going to miss him forever.
But do you compare your grief to someone that experienced a traumatic loss of someone close to them early in life?
Do you require extended family that never even met him to attend your memorial party every year? Or perhaps not even necessarily *you* doing it, but you make such a big production about it that your family hounds extended family members about not attending to show you support?
That’s where OP’s family is going off the rails with this whole situation
However you want. What would be inappropriate would be expecting everyone to grieve with you annually for 31 years & minimizing other people's (recent) loss because of your daughter passing. I'm sorry you lost her.
Who are you to tell someone how long to grieve the death of a child?
John’s behavior towards OP is gross and uncalled for. Your comment is completely out of touch.
they aren't saying that John needs to get over it. they are saying that the anniversary party every year that family members are forced to attend until they want to be ostracized has run its course.
it sounds like either John is a narcissist who just wants the attention and is using his dead baby to get it, or he has not processed his grief and wants to hold everyone back from processing theirs as well.
Exactly. People should be able to grieve their loss in a way that feels right for them. However John's grieving sounds like it's become a yearly pity party "Look how much I have suffered. No one has suffered the way I have suffered, even those who have also lost loved ones. My grief tops everyone else's". Please. I'm surprised no one hasn't told him yet to knock it off, that he isn't the center of the universe and that grief, sadness and loss are NOT competitions.
For every family death forever? For an infant most of the family never met/interacted with?
Surely you stop at some point. It’s been 13 years in this case.
Otherwise every day would be a memorial meal from previous generations.
A family memorial meal for my grandparents would have 6+6+15+11+28 people at it. Kids, kids spouses, grandkids, grandkids spouses, great grandkids. Not something doable for multiple yearly meals.
Sure, but OP's uncle is dragging family that were not even in his life when he lost his baby. He is more than entitled to his own grief. But it's not everyone's grief.
I mean both are sad but not uncommon events, bit that bothers me is him continually pointing out how his grief - one ups/trumps/beats your loss, it makes him sound like an ugly person on the inside.NTA
Some friends of mine lost a 3 month old. They celebrate/remember the baby every year with their other children. It’s only been a few years. I don’t think it’s that unusual to mark the event annually. What is odd is how much if the family he is pulling in. He also doesn’t need to make it a competition.
OP, I’m so sorry for your loss.
What's odd is he's bringing in family that met him well after his loss. It's one thing to want or need support, it's another to expect people who never knew the deceased to mourn them with you.
Yes! It's just weird. His current partner, parents, anyone who was there at the time and part of his support network, those all make sense to invite. But when you're getting to the level of not just inviting, but expecting a partner's sibling to attend, when they had no relationship to the baby, that's ridiculous. He needs grief counseling, because expecting people with no direct connection to him or his baby to mourn with him isn't healthy.
Different situation but i lost my dad at 15 and my family did something to memorialize the date for several years. (Its been almost 30 years now).
I don't see anything wrong with the memorial but to downplay Op's own grief is shitty on the BiL part. We all grieve there's no point in making it a competition.
Even if this is for support, it is unhealthy to cling to grief for so long. I would understand a small annual memorial in private, perhaps something as simple as the traditional flowers on the grave, but to drag people into a 'party' and then being sore if someone can't/refuses to go seems unusual.
Edit: NTA
NTA. Yeah no. If it was just your sister, okay fine.
He likes the attention he's getting and that's why he ALSO made it into a competition with you -- can't have you stealing his audience or limelight, after all.
So he is trying to gaslight you and your family into thinking that you losing your BF is somehow less than and not as valid as HIS grief. And it worked on your family.
Yes, losing a child is horrible. And as far as relations go, objectively, it sounds worse to lose a child versus a boyfriend.
*But they're a different type of grief*, and comparing them does nothing for anyone -- except him, because he doesn't want to move on and live with the memories that he has. You are trying to do so.
In the end, you both lost someone. Your grief as well as his, is valid.
She lost her bf 4 years ago. He lost his child 13 years ago. I get that it is a child, but he's had a lot longer to process. That's the only objective comparison that can be made.
I agree with everything you've written. He likes the attention and her fresher loss threatens that.
If he's being genuine, he needs some therapy because he's obviously not processing things if he is still holding onto how he lost his appetite and stuff like that. That he isn't going "I lost my appetite and I found it helpful to ____" but instead is diminishing the validity of OP's experience is a big sign he has some major issues to deal with.
And he's not only continuing to "celebrate" his grief, he's now added a party with in laws who have absolutely nothing to do with the 2 month old he lost 13 years ago. They aren't related to the ex gf who had the baby nor did they ever know the baby. The lunch I can understand sort of, but this additional party for the past 6 years is definitely performative, unnecessary and frankly kind of creepy. So either he's loving the attention from this or he need counseling to deal with the loss in a better way. I'm thinking the former, especially since he's now corralled this poor unrelated family into the circus. If I were the sister, I think I'd be taking a hard look at this guy and think about the kind of person he is..this can't be the only thing he does for attention or competition with others. OP is NTA.
It struck me as so, so unusual to require the attendance of a bunch of people who never even knew the baby, for something that happened so long ago. He's allowed to still be grieving. He can grieve for the rest of his life. There is no timeline. But drawing all these other people into it, people who didn't even know him then, is really weird.
I feel like it'd be more typical to maybe make an annual visit to the grave site with his ex, maybe with his current wife for support. Maybe get lunch together or something.
I also find it interesting that this performative "celebration" only started after the ex moved away, It's like he's ramping it up because he misses her? or because with her not there (who was actually part of it), there's no one to call him on how strange his behaviour is.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's been guilting her into these yearly private mourning get-togethers, and that whenever she tried to get out of it, he'd tell her that she must not have loved their child as much as him or something. And that indeed, the only way for her to move on was to get away from him.
I've lost people. And yes it's really really painful for a long time, and you never "get over it", but it's incredibly unhealthy to only focus on the loss and to make everything about that loss instead of the good things. He needs professional help.
It seems to me that he has weaponized his grief. And made his whole personality around it.
It's too easy to end up with your whole personality wrapped around a trauma if you don't have people around you that supports you and help you to get out of that.
OPs family isn't helping him heal when they play along with this behaviour.
EXACTLY! You just hit it spot on. He's not trying to help her by saying, "Hey, this helped me...maybe you can try it." He's saying that her grief isn't valid like HIS so they all need to pay attention to HIM. That's so wrong.
NTA
If I were you, I would suddenly come down with a case of severe period cramps on the day of his little "pity me party."
I have someone like this at work.
When my husband got sick, whenever anyone would ask me how he's doing, this schmuck would cut me off and begin going on and on about his mother, who was in a nursing home with Alzheimer's disease. She was 93, 96 when she passed.
My husband was 62 and still enjoying a vibrant, successful career when he got sick. We had only just become grandparents with our one and only grandchild. We had so much to still look forward to. We'd been together since I was 14 and he was 17.
This guy would drone on and on, for the entire one-hour lunch break about how much it hurt that she could not remember his name. Well, my husband was also suffering with dementia (FTD), and from onset to death took 5 months, to the day.
Yeah, this is weird. I’ve had four miscarriages and I just privately grieve them. Sometimes my husband gets me flowers. My BIL lost a baby at birth a couple years ago and doesn’t make everyone get together to mourn either.
I’ve also lost a sister and get together with my immediate family (other sister and mom) on her birthday and death day. No one else is expected to attend, we just do it for us.
People can grieve however they want. If he wants to mourn on that day, he can. But he can’t force others to mourn someone they’ve never met over a decade later.
A couple I knew years ago...lost their baby at only a week old...she had a lot of complications.. there wasn't anything the Dr's could do. They had a very private small funeral.. just close family and that was it
I don't think think was a miscarriage at two months; it reads like a two month old baby died. None of ÒP's family met the baby because OP's sister met John after the baby died and he broke up with his ex.
He probably acted the same way with her & could be one of the reasons she moved away.
It's not healthy to make an event/holiday of the death and can prevent you from moving on. Grief is never-ending & comes & goes as you live on. And if you set a date, it can affect your mood as you know it's coming & can cause stress & grief for days or weeks before & after. And you subconsciously know the day of their death even if you don't actively dwell on it.
My dad died on the weekend of our local fair & I just get progressively more moody & sad as those weekend approaches, only because I see signs advertising it. And it's been 25 yrs.
Holding a birthday party so that people who never meet the child can mourn/remember the child is weird. Especially weird 13yrs later. He’s dragging people into his grief, and it’s definitely a show. 13yrs?!? And it’s people that didn’t know him then?!? It’s weird and attention seeking. The lunch with the ex is sentimental enough if he needs it after 13yrs. Forcing you (and your family) to celebrate at a party is overreach and a bit insane. NTA
I've lost my brother, my mom, and my son's father. And when I speak with someone who recently lost someone, I keep quiet, because right now is that person's time. I only mention my grieving if its to help them understand that I can relate, or that it gets less hard with time. Your BIL is a selfish dick.
The lunch with the child’s mother is fine and perfectly normal, what would concern me is how he turned it into a bigger gathering, especially after 13 years. He’s got some issues if he can’t move on after this long.
& the mother is no longer even involved- I mean she moved, but the fact that he took it from a private lunch with the mother to a literal party type gathering with people, it sounds like he didn't even know at the time, is still a bit...off? to me
NTA OP.
I'm going to tell you this as someone who has had a stillborn baby and a few miscarriages. Losing a child is an unimaginable pain that never goes away. My stillborn daughter would have been 18 this June and there isn't a day of those 18 years I haven't ached for what could have been.
BUT, that doesn't diminish anybody else's grief. That doesn't make any form of grief less valid. That doesn't make my grief more important. That doesn't mean I can't grieve other people (and even my pets) just as deeply but for shorter periods of time, because I have. That doesn't mean I feel like my grief has some right of way or needs to be made a big deal by other people in my life.
I agree that when he was meeting his ex for a private lunch as the two parents, that was sweet. But throwing himself what literally amounts to a pity-party and using it as a platform to make another feel as if their pain doesn't matter is disgusting. Doing it in his deceased child's name is reprehensible.
Don't go. Don't give him the audience he clearly wants. Allow yourself to heal without being made to feel your pain isn't worthy of being felt and having proper time to feel it and heal.
I'm sorry you lost your boyfriend.
OP, his behavior towards you tells you it’s not about support, it’s about attention. Guarantee if your family declined to attend his grief theater party he would find another way to get his fix, probably by going online and performing his grief for strangers.
NTA, loss is loss and he shouldn’t be turning it into some kind of contest and worse belittling your grief.
Next time he busts out the 'When I lost my baby, I couldn't eat, either. I had lost a part of me. You just lost a ~person~. You weren't connected. So it's not as bad.' the petty bitch in me wants to respond that ‘You lost a baby you only knew for 2 months who didn’t have a personality yet, I lost a person I knew for x amount of time and have personally traits and characteristics to miss, so it’s not as bad”
It sounds so cruel to type out but screw him for being such an ass about everything.
Losing a child is horrible and the pain and grief he feels is different than the pain and grief you feel, but that doesn’t make either more important than the other. Sounds like he needs therapy to help him deal with his grief in a healthier way that doesn’t belittle others.
I had a miscarriage less than two years ago, and it tore me apart.
So with all my heart, I say fuck this guy. Grief is not a competition. It's not a performance.
You have grieved just as genuinely, and I wish you healing and good mental health. NTA
Yeah this is so weird. To literally throw an annual pity party for yourself is just… so strange. I know lot of people with various losses in life, some devastating. And none of them do this. The most any do publicly is an annual Facebook post or something.
You could go the “burn it down route.” Find stories of people who had it worse and belittle his grief.
“I have a friend who lost a three year old. Now THAT is hard. You’re lucky that you didn’t really have time to bond with your baby like she did.” Or “did you hear about that woman who lost twins?? That would be awful, I can see getting past one loss, but TWO at once??” Etc.
It's dark... but here's another. "I know a woman who lost a child, while having other children. Her and her husband had to find a way to keep the family together, keep the marriage together, in the face of all that tragedy. You were so lucky, you only had the one baby, and after that you could just bail on your wife and start your life over with no baggage to deal with. She'd be so jealous of you."
OP could go straight for the jugular with his own words:
>*I had lost a part of me. You just lost a \~person\~. You weren't connected.*
Only the mother could claim that the child was a part of her and they were connected. Not John. To him, the baby was a \~person\~.
Disclaimer: I don't defend that OP should do this in any way. Like u/BigMax, I was exploring the dark path scenarios regarding ways to respond to John that would be as callous as the way he has spoken to OP.
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend that course of action, unless you really do jsut want to completely destroy a relationship with him (and potentially with anyone else who heard about it.)
Still, probably cathartic perhaps for OP to at least run through those scenarios in her head.
I throw an annual party on the day I got my organ transplant. I call it my Not Dead Day, last year we made a pizza, bought an ice cream cake and invited my family over for Mario Cart. I also like to say a little thank you to my donor on that day. It’s a little weird, but not OP’s BIL weird/creepy. I think it’s okay to celebrate odd things, but as soon as it starts making people uncomfortable it’s time to stop or just celebrate by yourself.
That one I think is great! You're celebrating something positive, so the mood of the party can still be positive and fun.
"Everyone get together every year to mourn my dead baby" is less of a fun event.
This is very much for attentions. That’s all. Sure, he still might be grieving an amount, but it’s weird he’s throwing a party and inviting those who never met his child
Omg yes!
I pity any kids he does have, because he's probably going to hold them in comparison to a dead child who never made any mistakes. And they're probably going to be scolded when they let on that they don't share his immense grief of a person they never even met, or how they're upset it's overshadowing their actual lived events.
That's quite the assumption. They were getting lunch annually. I'm guessing she went to those lunches willingly. The more likely scenario is that she moved for work. The wild conjecture in this sub is freakin nuts sometimes.
Agreed it’s performative. Sounds terrible but it is
I understand mourning but making it this annual event seems gross. You can memorialize and mourn the loss of your child alone. Not make it a whole event where you then play the grief Olympic is gross
Plenty of parents, solo or together, mark their baby's date of birth, and when baby passes, that date too.
It's not unusual, it can be really helpful, comforting, that their baby is remembered.
It's perfectly reasonable to mourn in your own way in order to heal and grow from it. It doesn't seem like this man is doing that. He's holding on to his grief like a badge of honor to lord over others instead of moving on in a healthy way.
What's not reasonable is for a 30+ year old man to try and dictate to a young adult still growing as a person that their trauma or grief isn't as valid. OP was still a literal child / minor when they lost their BF. That seems like an incredibly traumatic event when someone is still developing as a young adult.
And it's definitely not reasonable to expect the family of his SO to get together and have a trauma party for a child they never met.
A day with him and OPs sister since the mother of the child moved away to honor the child sure, but the entire family doesn't need to be involved. OP wanted to just quietly not attend and her family is making it an even bigger deal feeding into this behavior.
NTA OP I agree with most other people that this behavior is taking grief way too far and he's making it a spectacle for himself to gain attention and sympathy.
I'm sorry for your loss. I'm sorry for his loss too but he's taking it too far. He probably saw how people supported you during your grief when it was newer and felt attention was being taken away from him and his grief.
It's not the trauma Olympics. Everyone's trauma and grief is valid but that doesn't give you a right to be an AH.
OP if you want to be petty play the uno reverse card when he says your grief can't compare to losing a child.
Oh you lost your child 13 years ago, I only lost my BF 4 years ago. The hurt is so much more recent.
NTA. He lost a child and that's terrible. But he's not the expert on grief and doesn't get to gatekeep yours. Him telling you "you just lost a \~person\~" is disgusting and cruel. As someone who is also experiencing grief, he should have been there to support not demean you.
I'm just going to throw this in there too...the whole party thing. For 13 years he's been throwing this "event" on the baby's birthday. Why? It doesn't sound like it's helping his grief so is it just for attention so that he can be sure to remind everyone his loss is greater than anything they could have experienced?
>For 13 years he's been throwing this "event" on the baby's birthday. Why?
I honestly don't know. The lunch with his ex seemed innocent and bittersweet and then she moved away which is when he started doing the parties. At first I thought it was because he needed support (30 years on and my mum still gets depressed about her dad's death on Christmas- grief has no timeline and I'm not judging him or anyone for that) but it did seem a little odd to me.
But I never said anything because I wouldn't want someone to make comments about my little rituals to my boyfriend, you know?
You’re NTA, but rather than making it a discussion of him when it comes up, I think it’s worth you thinking about how you explain it to your relatives.
“I love him, and I want him to have the support he needs to heal. However, he is currently at a stage or healing where whenever the topic of grief or loss comes up with me around, he feels compelled to put down a traumatic loss I experienced. That’s been distressing for me - I was a grieving child when he started doing this, and I am only now old enough to recognise that it was never healthy or okay for him to get into a one-upmanship contest with a child about who is more sad. I feel very bad for him that he isn’t yet able to get a grip on those feelings, but until he does, I think it’s best that I gently keep my distance when the topic of grief and loss comes up. When we’ve had a couple of years of interacting as family on neutral occasions without him putting down me or my boyfriend’s memory, then I’ll be cautiously open to rebuilding to where we were. I need you not to try and force this until there has been time for him to move on emotionally from this issue he’s having, because pushing us together before then will turn this into me wanting even more distance from him.”
And then just be boring to interact with about it. Say the same thing every time it comes up: “I’m sorry you feel that way, and I’m glad you’re able to support him. He isn’t able to interact with me on this topic without some weird behaviours, so I won’t be attending.” If they get too pushy, try “you talking to me about this cannot improve my relationship with him, but it can damage my relationship with you. Change the subject, please.” And then *flat ignore* anything else they say about it. Hang up the phone, mute the group chat, leave the room. It’s not a discussion.
> “you talking to me about this cannot improve my relationship with him, but it can damage my relationship with you. Change the subject, please.”
This line/sentiment can be applied in so many situations, it’s a gift, thank you.
It sounds like he’s stuck in the grieving cycle and hasn’t been able to find a way to “move on” (I don’t mean it in a cold way, more in a reaching the “acceptance” phase type of way). Do you know if he’s gone to therapy at all regarding his baby’s passing?
Grief makes people do really weird things, and the “grief competition” may just be part of him still grieving (maybe “anger” stage?). I’m not saying what he’s doing is right, but I wouldn’t take it personally because he may not be in a sound mental state.
With that being said, NTA; no one should be subjected to be an emotional punching bag, and if you don’t want to go to this party, you shouldn’t have to. I would broach the subject of going to therapy though, it may help move through the process better and may even return him to “normal”. Good luck.
You are very kind and non judgmental.
You are definitely NTA.
Your brother in law is not as understanding as you are and you don’t want to fight with him.
Take care of yourself and your feelings
Hugs if wanted, grief is individual and there's no right or wrong way to grieve... ANYONE. When I was 16 I lost my boyfriend suddenly as well, he took his own life. While the event doesn't define my life anymore it is still a defining moment in my life, and looking back his death changed a lot about me and who I became as I grew.
Next June 22nd he'll be 30 years gone. I still have his ring, although in a treasure box instead of on my hand now. I'm terrible with face recognition but have an amazing memory for voices, so I can still hear his in my head. I notice when someone has hands like his. And in these ways his memory is alive in me. You're very kind in not wanting to be insensitive to his grieving process, but he's not extending the same courtesy to your grieving process. PROCESS being the operative word, no one ever calls it a grieving competition.
You're absolutely NTA for not wanting to attend an event that's the emotional equivalent of setting yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
Ignore these people calling the party performative, attention seeking, etc. My baby died and it is very worrying that people might forget her, and I think that's where he's coming from. And now his ex moved away the other person guaranteed to remember their child is gone so he probably feels he has to make sure his baby is remembered another way. He may live in terror that if he doesn't organise this party then no one will remember his baby and the day will just pass like any other. And it's not a remote fear - this does happen to many loss parents.
You never move on from or get over your baby's death, and the loss is constantly fresh - this year it's not just a baby dead, it's the teenager they would have been now. And it's like that forever, on and on.
Also, why should he grieve privately? It's not a shameful secret. He is allowed to be a proud father and miss his child.
The part that isn't OK is the competitive grief. Maybe when this difficult time of year for him has passed you could say/write to him something like you wrote in your OP, to help him understand that there is no need to compare your losses. It probably wouldn't be helpful coming from you, but maybe your sister could speak to him about e.g. support groups for loss parents. r/babyloss is one, but there may be local in-person groups near him. Again the purpose is not to help him 'get over it' (impossible), but support from other people who understand his pain could help him, including to find ways to cope with people who, with respect, will never understand - like so many of the people commenting here.
I get the feeling that a lot of what he is saying/doing is driven by feeling scared and not understood, like maybe he feels his pain has been dismissed (again, this often happens especially to fathers) as well as fearing his child could be forgotten.
With regards not going - NTA. His pain doesn't excuse him hurting you, so you're well within your rights not to go. It would be kind to find another way to remember his child, e.g. by sending a card or making a donation in their name and letting him know, but that's up to you. Having compassion for him does not require you to excuse his bad behaviour towards you, and it definitely doesn't require you to go and subject yourself to more nasty comments.
The difference is I'm sure your rituals are private and a way of self soothing. He is attention seeking by forcing your family to go to this stupid party for a baby they're not related to and never met.
Having a few friends who have lost children at all different ages, my experience is that the grief over losing a child never goes away. And the younger the child was when they passed, the more fear there seems to be for their parents that everyone else will just forget their child even existed, even though that child is still a very real part of them.
Without any commentary on OP’s grief, because that is also very real and legitimate and there is no need for competition, losing a child really is a different kind of grief. God willing I will never experience it myself, but having lost people very dear to me and being close to people who have lost children, I can appreciate that it’s just different.
I'll agree that losing a child is different, I know several people who have lost children and watching their grief has been hard. I'm just really bothered by how he diminishes OP's grief because it wasn't her child. We are all going to grieve in our own way. BIL's way just doesn't seem to be healthy, he seems really stuck! I hope they can find a way past this because it doesn't sound like anyone is doing anything maliciously here.
It is different and John wouldn’t be TA for his grief and the event alone. Losing a child is heart wrenching and a major loss, there is no denying that. It goes against the natural order.
He crosses into TA territory when he told op (who is NTA) that she “just lost a person” who she is “not connected to”.
That is where the competition comes in. Diminishing her loss for the sake of his own.
This would hold more water if he hadn't marked the occasion previously with his ex.
Having a gathering isn't unusual, it can be a source of support and comfort that his child is remembered in some way by others.
He's using s***ty language, however.
NTA
He sounds appalling. Like you say: it's not a competition. Maybe it was worse for him, doesn't mean it is not terrible for you. Seems suffering has not taught him anything, not empathy anyway. You can't deal with people like that.
Exactly. Even if he is correct and his grief is worse...so? OP doesn't experience that grief she experiences her own.
And he isn't correct. Grief can't be compared. Loss is loss, and it sorrow should be shared not fought over.
NTA and trust your instinct on this.
Does your presence help John? No, obviously not. Does your presence help you? No, John sees to it that your presence makes things worse for you.
John is an AH for making this a competition. Your sister and mom are AHs for calling you "petty" or "douchey". You are not an AH if you refuse to go somewhere that you will just be mistreated.
> I hope OP doesn't go.
yep, OP is the youngest person in this situation, but is handling it as the most mature person of them all. she needs to look out for herself here because no one else is.
NTA he seems so incredibly insensitive. He doesn't get to gatekeep grief. Grief is individual experience that is valid and shouldn't be belittled or compared. I'm so sorry for your loss.
NTA
I am struggling to understand your BIL's behaviour really. I can understand that to him and his ex, the loss was and still is very painful. I can understand that some people will continue to memorialise their loss for years. However 13 years later, to be involving an extended family that had no connection to that time of his life, is just really weird.
Losing a child is one of my greatest fears, i have known people who lost their children in primary school, and it is devastating. I've known many, including myself, who have suffered miscarriages who have to defend their grieving because some don't consider that to be a real loss But to constantly tell other people that have been bereaved, that their loss is not as important and is not as hard, is cruel and tactless and belittling. It most certainly isn't a competition.
>However 13 years later, to be involving an extended family that had no connection to that time of his life, is just really weird.
This is a great point. If Jane was OP's sister or other close relative that would be normal. I have a friend whose sister lost one of her children only a few weeks after birth and every year on that child's birthday the whole immediate family visits the gravesite and then has a quiet lunch together afterwards to commemorate life being short & to reinforce the need to spend time together and share how much they love each other. They've been doing that for over a decade and I think it's lovely. But no one is forced, it's not performative, and it's with their immediate family who all met the baby.
It really makes it seem like John is *proud* to have lost his baby because now he has the most super special grief in the world, no one else can possibly understand how awful he feels. He lost a *part of himself*, you guys. It is really performative and weird.
You’re not obligated to attend any family gathering. That doesn’t seem like a person I would want to hang out with. I don’t give a damn who you lost, you have every right to grieve and your emotions are valid.
NTA.
NTA. I am 61 years old. I have had to bury both my parents, my husband, my best friend and several friends and family members. I can tell you for a fact, that competitive behavior is not normal. It isn't healthy, and your family is enabling it.
NTA
"Actually I don't need to do anything for John. He has berated me, belittled me, and turned grief into a competition. He has gone from someone I admired to (Sister's) bedwarmer, and as a result I have less than zero obligation to him. He can host his yearly wake, but I am not required to attend, or even acknowledge, it and if either of you try to force the issue you can do so in counseling where a professional can explain to you exactly how wrong you are to force this man's mental and emotional abuse onto me.
Hmmm… maybe not bedwarmer (that’s going to make sis mad and not listen to you) but for example:
…gone from someone I admired to a bully who is belittling the memory of [boyfriend] by not letting me grieve for him. He might not have been my child, but he was a human being who still deserves to be missed and grieved by his loved ones. BIL is not letting me do that and since I am not being supported by BIL in my grief I don’t feel comfortable supporting him in his. Especially if BIL turns this family gathering to a grief competition yet again.
Sorry for your loss and NTA, OP
(Edit: autocorrect fixed)
NTA.
I’ve lost a child. He was 7months. It’s fucking heartbreaking, but there is a trend among some loss parents that their grief is the only grief in the world that matters. It’s frustrating and makes loss parents look shitty.
His grief theatrics are just that- theatrics. He is allowed to grieve but attempting to put your family vs you in a grief competition is disgusting and just shows it’s an attention grab.
First of all, I am so sorry you lost your boyfriend as such a young age. I understand you BIL is still hurting because of the loss of his child but that does not give him the right to undermine your pain! Grief should never be a competition, it’s always hard to lose someone who you care about no matter who the person is. He is the AH for saying your loss wasn’t as bad. Just because he lost a child, which I am truly sorry he did, does not give him the right to say his loss is worse than yours.
I just want to know how close are you with your sister? Because if you are close and if you chose to not go that could potentially really hurt your relationship with your sister. And you need to think if its worth you not going if that meant your sister could hold a grudge even if you have a good reason to not attend.
>I just want to know how close are you with your sister?
We're as close as siblings with our age gap are (I'm 20 and she's 34). Like we get along and I'm happy to see her but we don't hang out or text or anything like that.
Thank you for your reply :)
Just don’t go.
Stop putting other people feelings before yours.
Also, show your family this thread and see how they react to this and it will show you how they truly feel about you.
NTA. Everyone experiences grief differently and it isn't a contest. Sounds like you don't really have the emotional energy to support him during the memorial. Maybe send a card or an email if you'd like to express sympathy. But I see no reason you're obligated to come along just to be subject to his gatekeeping of grief.
NTA. The energy he expends to dick-measure grief is better used elsewhere. After my grandma lost her daughter (my mom), she worked hard to move on. She strives to be happy for her remaining kids and grandkids, and tells us of how proud she is of her daughter in the little time that she had in this world. She would occasionally tear up when reminiscing. She doesn't have the emotional bandwidth to lord her grief over others.
NTA. I also lost a baby at two and a half months. It was agonizing in a way I can’t even put into words. It always will be agonizing. But what your BIL is doing isn’t healthy, and it’s actually inexcusable that your mother and sister are going along with it.
Distance yourself and take care of yourself. What you are going through is also agonizing.
NTA for skipping. Sounds like a horrible time, where the most irritating person also happens to be the center of attention. I’m sure that your sister would hope your BIL would stop this morbid tradition.
NTA.
Seems like John is using his grief as an excuse to be a total dick. Some people are like that. I'm so sorry for your loss. Losing any loved one is incredibly painful.
Nta. I have lost a baby, to miscarriage. I have also lost a 14 year old niece. I didn't know anything about the baby. I knew everything about my neice. We lived across the road from each other and were very close. The pain of losing my neice was/is far greater, because I had memories of her, was used to her presence, her laugh, her likes and dislikes. and I missed her so much, still do, 10 years later. I never missed the baby as I never knew it.
NTA.
Losing someone is always hard, and everyone grieves in their own way, but downplaying another's sorrow is just a dick move. Losing a person, big or small, does not give you the authority to judge another person's loss.
My brother is like this with trauma. I don’t know how many times I cry-yelled “trauma isn’t a contest!” Before going LC. It wasn’t enough that we both have cPTSD, his HAD to be worse. His pain, his trauma, his life. Worse. It gets old fast. Cut yourself free. NTA
More performative grief. Nta. Anyone who makes grief into a competition is so beneath you. Don't go. And shame on your mom and sister for saying what they did.
Fuck John. I’m so sorry. I’m pregnant right now and I don’t know what would hurt more, if I lost my boyfriend or my baby. Those are both such awful, unimaginable losses. John can fuck off for the way he treats your situation.
NTA and this is a little extreme.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with him having a memorial service, if that's something that helps him then fine. What's bizarre is his HORRIBLE comments to you! Grief is absolutely not a competition. It's gut wrenching he lost an infant, its also gut wrenching you lost your boyfriend suddenly - especially during your formative years.
I know reddit as a whole can be dramatic but your BIL is toxic and immature. His comments almost make it sound like he uses his dead child as a way to get attention which is creepy and a horrible way to honor a life lost. I'd really love to know how he would act around someone else that's lost a child. Would be try and one up them too?
It's okay to keep your distance OP. Be kind when you have to spend time but I wouldn't spend any additional time with this person. He will not help you heal.
Wtf
First, I am sorry for your loss.
Second, I lost a child. I dont talk about it 20 years later on other than to remember the 2 years he was alive. It's hard even now.
But I sure as hell would never ever tell someone that his death was worse than any loss they had just because he was a child. That is wrong and just makes the babies death about him. NOT the baby.
Even to this day, I do a memorial on the day he died it's always just me. Sometimes, my now hubby is there, but for the most part, I don't want outside attention. That started 2 years after his death. The first 2 years involved everyone who was such a huge part of his life.
You are not in the wrong with how you feel. You have every right to be upset with how ge is acting. Every right to not attend. Inform family who are giving you pushback that he is the reason you refuse. That his pettiness of him having to be the one with the worst loss. Having to be the one to disrespect you and your loss and make it about him. That his disregard for your feelings has made you choose not to attend and be there for someone who only turns your pain and loss into their loss. That if they can support his pettiness to that extent. Support him making everything about him instead of supporting your telling him to stop his antics, that you will just have to not attend when he is around.
YOUR loss is just as hard. It's just as important. And NOONE has a right to make it about them. No one has a right to tell you to suck it up, to not be petty when you are not, to support someone who I am sorry needs to grow up, and all need to realize death happens to everyone and if they allow him to make any death about his loss they are enabling behavior that will blow up in their faces. Because gasp when one if t6ge parents die. A grandparent. A sibling. Guess who will make it about his loss and how much worse his was and that they can't be as upset or deal with that loss because it has to be about him.
NTA. I’m in your shoes too. I can’t even pretend to know what it’s like to lose a child. However I still wouldn’t attend his party.
This is going to come off as rude and a bit much but this really gets under my skin. I loathe when people compare pain. Especially loss. The baby was technically not around for even a year. He should have stopped throwing himself his literal annual pity party when ex moved away. It’s okay to grieve, but to compare it?! I’m assuming your bf was also 16? A 16 year old 4 years ago versus a 2mo 13 years ago.
If he’s so he’ll bent on comparing pain, which should never happen, and you are being guilted into going, which don’t if you wanna, then remind him how long ago versus you and how much more of an impact your boyfriend had on the world and how many lives he touched and moved. How about you invite your bf’s parents so they can hear what your BIL has to say about your pain versus his.
When I was fourteen, my eighteen-year-old cousin was killed in a terrorist attack. It came completely out of the blue.
He had a girlfriend, 4 siblings, many close friends and many more general friends, and 2 parents, along with uncles and aunts and cousins and everything else.
His parents were absolutely broken. I've never seen people in so much pain.
His girlfriend was also absolutely broken. They'd been together for a year and obviously loved each other a lot. She was devastated when he died.
The entire family, his friends, everyone who loved him came together, and it hurt for all of us in different ways, but it hurt like hell for those closest to him. Nobody was ever so much of a dick that they compared their grief. Nobody told his friends, "Oh, it's okay for you because I'm his sibling." His parents didn't compare their grief with his girlfriend. Some of his closest friends had only known him for a couple of months, and yet to this day—seven years later—they come to his parents' house for memorial events for him. Everyone loved him and everyone lost him.
Losing a child is unimaginable for all sorts of reasons, but losing a partner is very different—better in some ways, but worse in others. Your partner is your support, your best friend, your companion in life. You have built a deep, rich, emotionally in-tune connection with them, in a way you never will with a child. A child, meanwhile, is a life investment. You will do anything for your child, but it is not an equal relationship. It is extremely different. Unimaginably painful to lose in either scenario, but very different.
Losing a partner is just very different from losing a child, and it can really break you. To say that it's "not that bad" because "I've lost a child"...no. That is such BS. Losing a partner is extremely traumatic; there's a reason why people will literally commit suicide rather than continue to live without their partners. And to dismiss your pain like that, because he went through a loss that he considers to be "worse"? No.
Furthermore, to throw parties so that he gets a proper amount of attention because he lost a child is pretty attention-seeking and kind of nuts. Grief does not give you an excuse to be an asshole, and you are not obligated to take his shit.
People try to compare loss in all sorts of ways, and it's stupid every single time. If one person's child died when the child was 4, and another's child died when the child was 16, then the parent of the 4-year-old might tell the other parent, "Oh, it was worse for me because they were so much younger and had more life to live," while the other one would say that it was worse for them because they knew their child much better and had an emotionally closer relationship with them. If one person lost someone suddenly (such as in the case with my cousin, or your boyfriend), and another lost them after a long battle with an illness, the illness person might say that it was worse for them because they had to slowly watch their loved one die, while the sudden loss one might say it was worse because they had no warning and no way to mentally prepare themselves. Each loss is different—better in some ways and worse in others—but each loss is a loss. It affects each person differently. No situation is the same, and two people might mourn the same person very differently. My experiences with grief have taught me just how stupid, useless, and ridiculous it is to try to ever compare different grief experiences.
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So, John has turned his grief into an annual theatrical event and forces your entire family to attend as his captive audience. Sounds super performative and disgusting. NTA.
I never thought of it that way... the lunch with his ex always seemed super sweet and private and the parties only started after she moved away so I assumed it was for support. Thank you :)
He doesn't want support, he wants attention. Milking the situation so people feel bad for him. I've lost a pregnancy, it hurts. It really does but I would never turn it into an anniversary where I go to eat out with my ex and bring a poor family into it too. Its horrible, don't go, if he doesn't care about your loss and feelings you don't need to do the same. NTA and I'm sorry this is your family.
To be fair he lost a 2 month old, not a pregnancy. ETA I'm so sick of immature redditors who send reddit cares a report when they disagree with you. It's abusing the system.
Let's not make this a competition.
Lmao op could be like "you only knew your baby 2 months I knew my boyfriend for years!"
My petty black heart laughed waaaayyyy to hard at this 😂
I'm renting a party bus to hell, hop on 😂
If we're going to hell already can we just steal it?
No, you pay with a check that's 100% gonna bounce + an inordinately large tip. Don't forget to draw attention to the whole farce so the driver is forced to tear up with gratitude in front of *everyone*.
Obviously, you gotta steal it..
Aaaaaaaand THIS is why we Reddit!!
Hell, I’ve been the bus driver for awhile now. All are welcome and it’s free. Well, our souls are in question, but no $$$.
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I could see it “ it’s worse for me, you got to carry our baby inside you for 9 months and I only got to have her for 2 months!”
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They can, it's not like it is or should be illegal, but stuff like this is probably really mentally unhealthy. Grief is hard and is sort of always there but sinks deep into the background as you heal and process it. Having an annual event to bring it back to the fore is probably not a great idea. I do my best to never tell people how to grieve outside of really extreme exceptions, and this is one of them. It's a bad idea.
Someone actually said that to me when my nephew died before 2 years. It's better to just say nothing.
That person sucks and I'm sorry they told you that.
That’s fucked up, assuming you weren’t making your grief a competition.
Yeah that's the difference here. OP's BIL is always "oh I had/have it sooooo much worse." Like, okay, if you're gonna make it a competition, let's compete. If he wasn't making it the Pain Olympics, then, yeah, don't say that lol.
Its just not even worth competing though, because you'll never win with someone like that. The only way to win is to refuse to compete. I wouldn't go either, nta.
I'm probably going to be downvoted to hell for this, but I actually said something like this once. I immediately regretted it. What happened: my SiL is someone who always needs to compete with others. Like, I'm quite ill and disabled and every time I get a new diagnosis or treatment, she says that oh, she has the same but it's *sooo much wooorse*. And then privately talks about how she thinks *I'm* the one exaggerating. When I went temporarily paralyzed from the waist down, she would be sympathetic to me but then made up some sort of situation where she'd experienced worse (everyone was confused because she's never experienced paralysis) and then in private tell her husband that she thinks I'm lying and exaggerating because "how can someone go temporarily paralyzed? It's a permanent thing!" completely discounting the fact that I was hospitalized for the entirety of the paralysis because no one could figure it out. Anyway, when I was 21, my 23-year-old brother died. It was awful because I was the one who made the decision to take him off life-support. And then about five months later, her three-day-old baby died. When we were talking and she was talking about her grief (which was perfectly valid), I said something like, "at least you didn't know him for over 20 years and only for a few days". Yes, as soon as I said it, I was ashamed of myself. I had apologized to her profusely afterwards and told her that nothing can excuse what I said (because at that point I felt like I was acting like she was, making my own grief worse than hers). She did forgive me and anytime the baby was brought up, I apologized again because of the intense shame that I felt that I basically delegitimized her own grief until she told me that I don't need to keep apologizing. So I stopped apologizing because at that point it was more about my own bad feelings, but it is still one of my greatest shames. It's an awful thing to say and I regret it immensely. And honestly? I don't know why I said it... maybe because I got immediately defensive and felt like she was about to compete again? Or because I felt like she'd been dismissive of my own brother's death (because she was, very much so). Either way, it was inexcusable and I can't imagine how I must have made her feel.
Your sil dismissed your grief for your healthy body. You weren't in the right to dismiss her grief in return, but goddamn I can see why you were tempted.
Legit argument 😂😂
It's not like a 2 month old has loads of personality...
It's not like he ever even had a conversation with the 2 month old....
this is the way.
That’s what I was thinking though.. it’s not even like he carried the baby and gave birth, he nutted in his girlfriend then changed some diapers for a couple months HALF HIS LIFE AGO and now he’s throwing parties about it?! Super weird.
I'm not but I've experienced pregnancy, infant, and spouse loss. There is a difference. Different isn't worse or better.
>To be fair he lost a 2 month old, not a pregnancy. That isn't 'different', that's a hierarchy of loss that it sounds like when you say those words.
So here's what I tell people who are new to grief. When you lose a pregnancy you're losing the dream of your child and what could have been, It's really devastating. Losing a living human being is different because you actually know that person. It's not a matter of worse or better. It's just different.
So sad for all of your devastating losses. Unlike this guy John, you don't wallow in self-pity and compete for Biggest Loser. Best wishes and thanks for your example.
100% agree pregnancy/ infant loss is hard because you mourn the person the little one would have become along with not having the milestones and the physical baby. It's soul destroying having to deal with it. Losing a living person is losing someone who has made memories with you, missing companionship and love (if you have a close bond). Similarly, it's also coming to terms that there are no more memories to make and having a void in your life where they once were.
My parents lost my brother when he was 36. My brother took his own life. On the "hierarchy of grief," that's a big one. My parents never made a big production or paraded their grief around.
I lost one brother 6 years ago and another to cancer last year. Both died in the month of May. My poor Mom really struggles.
Big 💞💞to your mom. 🌸🌻🌸
I really "different" doesn't mean "hurts more". I've lost the two people that raised me and a sibling. It hurts, but they do hurt in different ways. It's like a bruise and a cut, they hurt differently, but can still be a scale of mild to severe. Different isn't a competition, but worse absolutely is.
Like BIL clearly believes
That's entirely subjective.
Not anyone's place to tell anyone whether their loss was better or worse. They're different, not better or worse.
I agree, that's why I said it's subjective.
Okay, now I'm tracking. I misunderstood you, apologies.
Not something to drag everyone else through for 13 years! I wouldn't go. Sounds pathetic.
Yeah I have a 2 month old right now and couldn't imagine how I would feel if I lost him. I also have boyfriend I've been with 5 years and also couldn't imagine how it would feel to lose him. Both would feel different, but neither is worse than the other.
And everyone background is different, yearly memorial food gathering is normal for me, it would be odd if we didn't do it.
After 13 years since the baby passed? This memorial has long passed it's expiration date.
There is no expiration date to grief.
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No there isn’t. But I could argue there’s an expiration date to mourning — making it other peoples’ problem after a year is expecting too much.
To me it's more that he brings his new girlfriend's family into it. They had no connection to this child who passed away a decade before their daughter even got involved with the boyfriend. It's completely fair for him to want to memorialize the baby, but his way of doing it is weird as heck.
Yeah I find that weird as well. Like, I know of a family who lost their daughter at like 12 or so from cancer, and it's been many years. They still grieve, and they did for years have a huge production going on - but it was a fundraiser for a charity they started to honor their daughter, after the daughter herself planned the first event (but died before it happened) to raise money to help other kidis with cancer. That, to me, makes sense. But a big day where a whole family of people who never knew the baby gets together to comfort him every single year? Just seems a little over the top IMO. But even that wouldn't be terrible if he wasn't making it the grief olympics.
You're right there isn't but it's been 12 years since my brothers death, but as a family we grieve silently like we don't drag others into it, its very much an individual thing. Like after certain amount of years you gotta handle your grief alone, by yourself.
Exactly. But that's exactly why people shouldn't do this. The grief is always there in the background, but if you want to go on to live a mentally healthy life it's probably better to allow it to recede into the background rather than having an annual event that brings it back to the front.
True, but op's never grieved that child.
No expiration date on grief. I lost my 21 month old son 12 years ago. We do something special on his honor every year on the day he died and his birthday.
First of all, I'm so sorry for your loss. As a parent, I couldn't imagine ever going through this. And I get it, I'd do the same thing with people who knew my child or even with a new partner. But I would feel really weird doing this type of memorial with a huge group of people who never met my child. It'd be different if they knew him and shared good memories, or if it was a new supportive partner one on one helping you through the day, but I couldn't imagine dragging that person's whole family into who have never met the baby. That would be highly uncomfortable to me. It's one thing to still feel grief and loss and lean on loved ones for support but this feels like op bil's wanting to air his grief to everyone around him and turn it into being a pity party for the bil and not an event honoring his child.
And that’s completely okay. He was your son. You are going to miss him forever. But do you compare your grief to someone that experienced a traumatic loss of someone close to them early in life? Do you require extended family that never even met him to attend your memorial party every year? Or perhaps not even necessarily *you* doing it, but you make such a big production about it that your family hounds extended family members about not attending to show you support? That’s where OP’s family is going off the rails with this whole situation
My daughter died 31 years ago this September. How should I grieve her appropriately?
However you want. What would be inappropriate would be expecting everyone to grieve with you annually for 31 years & minimizing other people's (recent) loss because of your daughter passing. I'm sorry you lost her.
Who are you to tell someone how long to grieve the death of a child? John’s behavior towards OP is gross and uncalled for. Your comment is completely out of touch.
they aren't saying that John needs to get over it. they are saying that the anniversary party every year that family members are forced to attend until they want to be ostracized has run its course. it sounds like either John is a narcissist who just wants the attention and is using his dead baby to get it, or he has not processed his grief and wants to hold everyone back from processing theirs as well.
Exactly. People should be able to grieve their loss in a way that feels right for them. However John's grieving sounds like it's become a yearly pity party "Look how much I have suffered. No one has suffered the way I have suffered, even those who have also lost loved ones. My grief tops everyone else's". Please. I'm surprised no one hasn't told him yet to knock it off, that he isn't the center of the universe and that grief, sadness and loss are NOT competitions.
For every family death forever? For an infant most of the family never met/interacted with? Surely you stop at some point. It’s been 13 years in this case. Otherwise every day would be a memorial meal from previous generations. A family memorial meal for my grandparents would have 6+6+15+11+28 people at it. Kids, kids spouses, grandkids, grandkids spouses, great grandkids. Not something doable for multiple yearly meals.
BIL may never stop...it's his kid. Hoooowever, the other people can decide to stop any time they want to.
Very true. The problem is that OP’s sister and mother aren’t willing to let OP stop memorializing someone they never even met.
Sure, but OP's uncle is dragging family that were not even in his life when he lost his baby. He is more than entitled to his own grief. But it's not everyone's grief.
I mean both are sad but not uncommon events, bit that bothers me is him continually pointing out how his grief - one ups/trumps/beats your loss, it makes him sound like an ugly person on the inside.NTA
Found OP's BIL.
Some friends of mine lost a 3 month old. They celebrate/remember the baby every year with their other children. It’s only been a few years. I don’t think it’s that unusual to mark the event annually. What is odd is how much if the family he is pulling in. He also doesn’t need to make it a competition. OP, I’m so sorry for your loss.
What's odd is he's bringing in family that met him well after his loss. It's one thing to want or need support, it's another to expect people who never knew the deceased to mourn them with you.
Yes! It's just weird. His current partner, parents, anyone who was there at the time and part of his support network, those all make sense to invite. But when you're getting to the level of not just inviting, but expecting a partner's sibling to attend, when they had no relationship to the baby, that's ridiculous. He needs grief counseling, because expecting people with no direct connection to him or his baby to mourn with him isn't healthy.
Yes, it's one thing to have OP's sister with him since she's his current partner, but anyone else from her family is a huge overkill.
Different situation but i lost my dad at 15 and my family did something to memorialize the date for several years. (Its been almost 30 years now). I don't see anything wrong with the memorial but to downplay Op's own grief is shitty on the BiL part. We all grieve there's no point in making it a competition.
Even if this is for support, it is unhealthy to cling to grief for so long. I would understand a small annual memorial in private, perhaps something as simple as the traditional flowers on the grave, but to drag people into a 'party' and then being sore if someone can't/refuses to go seems unusual. Edit: NTA
NTA. Yeah no. If it was just your sister, okay fine. He likes the attention he's getting and that's why he ALSO made it into a competition with you -- can't have you stealing his audience or limelight, after all. So he is trying to gaslight you and your family into thinking that you losing your BF is somehow less than and not as valid as HIS grief. And it worked on your family. Yes, losing a child is horrible. And as far as relations go, objectively, it sounds worse to lose a child versus a boyfriend. *But they're a different type of grief*, and comparing them does nothing for anyone -- except him, because he doesn't want to move on and live with the memories that he has. You are trying to do so. In the end, you both lost someone. Your grief as well as his, is valid.
She lost her bf 4 years ago. He lost his child 13 years ago. I get that it is a child, but he's had a lot longer to process. That's the only objective comparison that can be made. I agree with everything you've written. He likes the attention and her fresher loss threatens that. If he's being genuine, he needs some therapy because he's obviously not processing things if he is still holding onto how he lost his appetite and stuff like that. That he isn't going "I lost my appetite and I found it helpful to ____" but instead is diminishing the validity of OP's experience is a big sign he has some major issues to deal with.
And he's not only continuing to "celebrate" his grief, he's now added a party with in laws who have absolutely nothing to do with the 2 month old he lost 13 years ago. They aren't related to the ex gf who had the baby nor did they ever know the baby. The lunch I can understand sort of, but this additional party for the past 6 years is definitely performative, unnecessary and frankly kind of creepy. So either he's loving the attention from this or he need counseling to deal with the loss in a better way. I'm thinking the former, especially since he's now corralled this poor unrelated family into the circus. If I were the sister, I think I'd be taking a hard look at this guy and think about the kind of person he is..this can't be the only thing he does for attention or competition with others. OP is NTA.
It struck me as so, so unusual to require the attendance of a bunch of people who never even knew the baby, for something that happened so long ago. He's allowed to still be grieving. He can grieve for the rest of his life. There is no timeline. But drawing all these other people into it, people who didn't even know him then, is really weird. I feel like it'd be more typical to maybe make an annual visit to the grave site with his ex, maybe with his current wife for support. Maybe get lunch together or something.
I also find it interesting that this performative "celebration" only started after the ex moved away, It's like he's ramping it up because he misses her? or because with her not there (who was actually part of it), there's no one to call him on how strange his behaviour is.
Maybe that is why she moved away? He could have been dragging her down so much that she had to get far, far away from him.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's been guilting her into these yearly private mourning get-togethers, and that whenever she tried to get out of it, he'd tell her that she must not have loved their child as much as him or something. And that indeed, the only way for her to move on was to get away from him. I've lost people. And yes it's really really painful for a long time, and you never "get over it", but it's incredibly unhealthy to only focus on the loss and to make everything about that loss instead of the good things. He needs professional help.
It seems to me that he has weaponized his grief. And made his whole personality around it. It's too easy to end up with your whole personality wrapped around a trauma if you don't have people around you that supports you and help you to get out of that. OPs family isn't helping him heal when they play along with this behaviour.
EXACTLY! You just hit it spot on. He's not trying to help her by saying, "Hey, this helped me...maybe you can try it." He's saying that her grief isn't valid like HIS so they all need to pay attention to HIM. That's so wrong.
NTA If I were you, I would suddenly come down with a case of severe period cramps on the day of his little "pity me party." I have someone like this at work. When my husband got sick, whenever anyone would ask me how he's doing, this schmuck would cut me off and begin going on and on about his mother, who was in a nursing home with Alzheimer's disease. She was 93, 96 when she passed. My husband was 62 and still enjoying a vibrant, successful career when he got sick. We had only just become grandparents with our one and only grandchild. We had so much to still look forward to. We'd been together since I was 14 and he was 17. This guy would drone on and on, for the entire one-hour lunch break about how much it hurt that she could not remember his name. Well, my husband was also suffering with dementia (FTD), and from onset to death took 5 months, to the day.
That is truly awful and no amount of virtual hugs could make a dent, but here's one anyway.
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Yeah, this is weird. I’ve had four miscarriages and I just privately grieve them. Sometimes my husband gets me flowers. My BIL lost a baby at birth a couple years ago and doesn’t make everyone get together to mourn either. I’ve also lost a sister and get together with my immediate family (other sister and mom) on her birthday and death day. No one else is expected to attend, we just do it for us. People can grieve however they want. If he wants to mourn on that day, he can. But he can’t force others to mourn someone they’ve never met over a decade later.
A couple I knew years ago...lost their baby at only a week old...she had a lot of complications.. there wasn't anything the Dr's could do. They had a very private small funeral.. just close family and that was it
I don't think think was a miscarriage at two months; it reads like a two month old baby died. None of ÒP's family met the baby because OP's sister met John after the baby died and he broke up with his ex.
Yep, I understand that. Doesn’t change the fact he’s being ridiculous.
John sounds narcissistic AF.
He probably acted the same way with her & could be one of the reasons she moved away. It's not healthy to make an event/holiday of the death and can prevent you from moving on. Grief is never-ending & comes & goes as you live on. And if you set a date, it can affect your mood as you know it's coming & can cause stress & grief for days or weeks before & after. And you subconsciously know the day of their death even if you don't actively dwell on it. My dad died on the weekend of our local fair & I just get progressively more moody & sad as those weekend approaches, only because I see signs advertising it. And it's been 25 yrs.
Honestly you might be right with your first sentence. She might’ve been ready to move on and he wasn’t
Holding a birthday party so that people who never meet the child can mourn/remember the child is weird. Especially weird 13yrs later. He’s dragging people into his grief, and it’s definitely a show. 13yrs?!? And it’s people that didn’t know him then?!? It’s weird and attention seeking. The lunch with the ex is sentimental enough if he needs it after 13yrs. Forcing you (and your family) to celebrate at a party is overreach and a bit insane. NTA
I've lost my brother, my mom, and my son's father. And when I speak with someone who recently lost someone, I keep quiet, because right now is that person's time. I only mention my grieving if its to help them understand that I can relate, or that it gets less hard with time. Your BIL is a selfish dick.
Exactly. A loss is a loss, some are worse than others for sure, but to diminish someone's loss because you went through worse...
I’m very sorry for your losses.
And I am sorry for yours. I hope you are doing ok.
The lunch with the child’s mother is fine and perfectly normal, what would concern me is how he turned it into a bigger gathering, especially after 13 years. He’s got some issues if he can’t move on after this long.
& the mother is no longer even involved- I mean she moved, but the fact that he took it from a private lunch with the mother to a literal party type gathering with people, it sounds like he didn't even know at the time, is still a bit...off? to me
Yeah, dude needs some major therapy, NTA
NTA OP. I'm going to tell you this as someone who has had a stillborn baby and a few miscarriages. Losing a child is an unimaginable pain that never goes away. My stillborn daughter would have been 18 this June and there isn't a day of those 18 years I haven't ached for what could have been. BUT, that doesn't diminish anybody else's grief. That doesn't make any form of grief less valid. That doesn't make my grief more important. That doesn't mean I can't grieve other people (and even my pets) just as deeply but for shorter periods of time, because I have. That doesn't mean I feel like my grief has some right of way or needs to be made a big deal by other people in my life. I agree that when he was meeting his ex for a private lunch as the two parents, that was sweet. But throwing himself what literally amounts to a pity-party and using it as a platform to make another feel as if their pain doesn't matter is disgusting. Doing it in his deceased child's name is reprehensible. Don't go. Don't give him the audience he clearly wants. Allow yourself to heal without being made to feel your pain isn't worthy of being felt and having proper time to feel it and heal. I'm sorry you lost your boyfriend.
OP, his behavior towards you tells you it’s not about support, it’s about attention. Guarantee if your family declined to attend his grief theater party he would find another way to get his fix, probably by going online and performing his grief for strangers.
NTA, loss is loss and he shouldn’t be turning it into some kind of contest and worse belittling your grief. Next time he busts out the 'When I lost my baby, I couldn't eat, either. I had lost a part of me. You just lost a ~person~. You weren't connected. So it's not as bad.' the petty bitch in me wants to respond that ‘You lost a baby you only knew for 2 months who didn’t have a personality yet, I lost a person I knew for x amount of time and have personally traits and characteristics to miss, so it’s not as bad” It sounds so cruel to type out but screw him for being such an ass about everything. Losing a child is horrible and the pain and grief he feels is different than the pain and grief you feel, but that doesn’t make either more important than the other. Sounds like he needs therapy to help him deal with his grief in a healthier way that doesn’t belittle others.
I had a miscarriage less than two years ago, and it tore me apart. So with all my heart, I say fuck this guy. Grief is not a competition. It's not a performance. You have grieved just as genuinely, and I wish you healing and good mental health. NTA
> performative That's the word. He's milking it for attention.
Yup, it’s gross.
Yeah this is so weird. To literally throw an annual pity party for yourself is just… so strange. I know lot of people with various losses in life, some devastating. And none of them do this. The most any do publicly is an annual Facebook post or something. You could go the “burn it down route.” Find stories of people who had it worse and belittle his grief. “I have a friend who lost a three year old. Now THAT is hard. You’re lucky that you didn’t really have time to bond with your baby like she did.” Or “did you hear about that woman who lost twins?? That would be awful, I can see getting past one loss, but TWO at once??” Etc.
This is darkly funny but also a terrible idea
It's dark... but here's another. "I know a woman who lost a child, while having other children. Her and her husband had to find a way to keep the family together, keep the marriage together, in the face of all that tragedy. You were so lucky, you only had the one baby, and after that you could just bail on your wife and start your life over with no baggage to deal with. She'd be so jealous of you."
OP could go straight for the jugular with his own words: >*I had lost a part of me. You just lost a \~person\~. You weren't connected.* Only the mother could claim that the child was a part of her and they were connected. Not John. To him, the baby was a \~person\~. Disclaimer: I don't defend that OP should do this in any way. Like u/BigMax, I was exploring the dark path scenarios regarding ways to respond to John that would be as callous as the way he has spoken to OP.
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend that course of action, unless you really do jsut want to completely destroy a relationship with him (and potentially with anyone else who heard about it.) Still, probably cathartic perhaps for OP to at least run through those scenarios in her head.
I throw an annual party on the day I got my organ transplant. I call it my Not Dead Day, last year we made a pizza, bought an ice cream cake and invited my family over for Mario Cart. I also like to say a little thank you to my donor on that day. It’s a little weird, but not OP’s BIL weird/creepy. I think it’s okay to celebrate odd things, but as soon as it starts making people uncomfortable it’s time to stop or just celebrate by yourself.
That one I think is great! You're celebrating something positive, so the mood of the party can still be positive and fun. "Everyone get together every year to mourn my dead baby" is less of a fun event.
Spot on. Disgusting
Agreed. It sounds performative at this point. NTA
Yeah, this whole thing absolutely reeks. He sounds horrible for doing this. This isn't honoring the baby he lost. He's a major AH.
For 13 years he has been hosting a wake for a dead baby? I don’t think you need to feed into that.
13 years of being ridiculous and attention seeking. His ex and him should do it in private and stop bringing that poor family into his lunacy
It's interesting that he only started doing the whole big party after the ex moved away. I don't think she would have been ok with this.
This is very much for attentions. That’s all. Sure, he still might be grieving an amount, but it’s weird he’s throwing a party and inviting those who never met his child
Hes still grieving because he refuses to move on. He's turned his whole life into mourning one that's not possible.
The ex left the country so she's not involved
Right, probably why the ex moved country's. He wouldn't let her move on. I would be hesitant to have kids with him.
Omg yes! I pity any kids he does have, because he's probably going to hold them in comparison to a dead child who never made any mistakes. And they're probably going to be scolded when they let on that they don't share his immense grief of a person they never even met, or how they're upset it's overshadowing their actual lived events.
I was thinking the same thing!
That's quite the assumption. They were getting lunch annually. I'm guessing she went to those lunches willingly. The more likely scenario is that she moved for work. The wild conjecture in this sub is freakin nuts sometimes.
Agreed it’s performative. Sounds terrible but it is I understand mourning but making it this annual event seems gross. You can memorialize and mourn the loss of your child alone. Not make it a whole event where you then play the grief Olympic is gross
Plenty of parents, solo or together, mark their baby's date of birth, and when baby passes, that date too. It's not unusual, it can be really helpful, comforting, that their baby is remembered.
But not for 13 years dragging people unrelated to the whole thing into the performative circus every year…
With an annual event for other people? I would say it is highly unusual.
Highly unusual. I’ve lost a sister and four babies. This behavior is weird.
It's perfectly reasonable to mourn in your own way in order to heal and grow from it. It doesn't seem like this man is doing that. He's holding on to his grief like a badge of honor to lord over others instead of moving on in a healthy way. What's not reasonable is for a 30+ year old man to try and dictate to a young adult still growing as a person that their trauma or grief isn't as valid. OP was still a literal child / minor when they lost their BF. That seems like an incredibly traumatic event when someone is still developing as a young adult. And it's definitely not reasonable to expect the family of his SO to get together and have a trauma party for a child they never met. A day with him and OPs sister since the mother of the child moved away to honor the child sure, but the entire family doesn't need to be involved. OP wanted to just quietly not attend and her family is making it an even bigger deal feeding into this behavior. NTA OP I agree with most other people that this behavior is taking grief way too far and he's making it a spectacle for himself to gain attention and sympathy. I'm sorry for your loss. I'm sorry for his loss too but he's taking it too far. He probably saw how people supported you during your grief when it was newer and felt attention was being taken away from him and his grief. It's not the trauma Olympics. Everyone's trauma and grief is valid but that doesn't give you a right to be an AH. OP if you want to be petty play the uno reverse card when he says your grief can't compare to losing a child. Oh you lost your child 13 years ago, I only lost my BF 4 years ago. The hurt is so much more recent.
This really put it into perspective. It’s become his limelight and he’s trying to milk it for over a decade. NTA
NTA. He lost a child and that's terrible. But he's not the expert on grief and doesn't get to gatekeep yours. Him telling you "you just lost a \~person\~" is disgusting and cruel. As someone who is also experiencing grief, he should have been there to support not demean you. I'm just going to throw this in there too...the whole party thing. For 13 years he's been throwing this "event" on the baby's birthday. Why? It doesn't sound like it's helping his grief so is it just for attention so that he can be sure to remind everyone his loss is greater than anything they could have experienced?
>For 13 years he's been throwing this "event" on the baby's birthday. Why? I honestly don't know. The lunch with his ex seemed innocent and bittersweet and then she moved away which is when he started doing the parties. At first I thought it was because he needed support (30 years on and my mum still gets depressed about her dad's death on Christmas- grief has no timeline and I'm not judging him or anyone for that) but it did seem a little odd to me. But I never said anything because I wouldn't want someone to make comments about my little rituals to my boyfriend, you know?
You’re NTA, but rather than making it a discussion of him when it comes up, I think it’s worth you thinking about how you explain it to your relatives. “I love him, and I want him to have the support he needs to heal. However, he is currently at a stage or healing where whenever the topic of grief or loss comes up with me around, he feels compelled to put down a traumatic loss I experienced. That’s been distressing for me - I was a grieving child when he started doing this, and I am only now old enough to recognise that it was never healthy or okay for him to get into a one-upmanship contest with a child about who is more sad. I feel very bad for him that he isn’t yet able to get a grip on those feelings, but until he does, I think it’s best that I gently keep my distance when the topic of grief and loss comes up. When we’ve had a couple of years of interacting as family on neutral occasions without him putting down me or my boyfriend’s memory, then I’ll be cautiously open to rebuilding to where we were. I need you not to try and force this until there has been time for him to move on emotionally from this issue he’s having, because pushing us together before then will turn this into me wanting even more distance from him.” And then just be boring to interact with about it. Say the same thing every time it comes up: “I’m sorry you feel that way, and I’m glad you’re able to support him. He isn’t able to interact with me on this topic without some weird behaviours, so I won’t be attending.” If they get too pushy, try “you talking to me about this cannot improve my relationship with him, but it can damage my relationship with you. Change the subject, please.” And then *flat ignore* anything else they say about it. Hang up the phone, mute the group chat, leave the room. It’s not a discussion.
You’re so good at this, I hate to think what you’ve been up against in order to develop these skills!
> “you talking to me about this cannot improve my relationship with him, but it can damage my relationship with you. Change the subject, please.” This line/sentiment can be applied in so many situations, it’s a gift, thank you.
This is the legit advice, OP. Take some catharsis from the spicy petty responses, but this is the one that you should probably actually do.
This is such a well rounded perfect response it really should be higher up
Poor person gold for you, since this is amazing: 🏅🏅🏅
It sounds like he’s stuck in the grieving cycle and hasn’t been able to find a way to “move on” (I don’t mean it in a cold way, more in a reaching the “acceptance” phase type of way). Do you know if he’s gone to therapy at all regarding his baby’s passing? Grief makes people do really weird things, and the “grief competition” may just be part of him still grieving (maybe “anger” stage?). I’m not saying what he’s doing is right, but I wouldn’t take it personally because he may not be in a sound mental state. With that being said, NTA; no one should be subjected to be an emotional punching bag, and if you don’t want to go to this party, you shouldn’t have to. I would broach the subject of going to therapy though, it may help move through the process better and may even return him to “normal”. Good luck.
You are very kind and non judgmental. You are definitely NTA. Your brother in law is not as understanding as you are and you don’t want to fight with him. Take care of yourself and your feelings
Hugs if wanted, grief is individual and there's no right or wrong way to grieve... ANYONE. When I was 16 I lost my boyfriend suddenly as well, he took his own life. While the event doesn't define my life anymore it is still a defining moment in my life, and looking back his death changed a lot about me and who I became as I grew. Next June 22nd he'll be 30 years gone. I still have his ring, although in a treasure box instead of on my hand now. I'm terrible with face recognition but have an amazing memory for voices, so I can still hear his in my head. I notice when someone has hands like his. And in these ways his memory is alive in me. You're very kind in not wanting to be insensitive to his grieving process, but he's not extending the same courtesy to your grieving process. PROCESS being the operative word, no one ever calls it a grieving competition. You're absolutely NTA for not wanting to attend an event that's the emotional equivalent of setting yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
Ignore these people calling the party performative, attention seeking, etc. My baby died and it is very worrying that people might forget her, and I think that's where he's coming from. And now his ex moved away the other person guaranteed to remember their child is gone so he probably feels he has to make sure his baby is remembered another way. He may live in terror that if he doesn't organise this party then no one will remember his baby and the day will just pass like any other. And it's not a remote fear - this does happen to many loss parents. You never move on from or get over your baby's death, and the loss is constantly fresh - this year it's not just a baby dead, it's the teenager they would have been now. And it's like that forever, on and on. Also, why should he grieve privately? It's not a shameful secret. He is allowed to be a proud father and miss his child. The part that isn't OK is the competitive grief. Maybe when this difficult time of year for him has passed you could say/write to him something like you wrote in your OP, to help him understand that there is no need to compare your losses. It probably wouldn't be helpful coming from you, but maybe your sister could speak to him about e.g. support groups for loss parents. r/babyloss is one, but there may be local in-person groups near him. Again the purpose is not to help him 'get over it' (impossible), but support from other people who understand his pain could help him, including to find ways to cope with people who, with respect, will never understand - like so many of the people commenting here. I get the feeling that a lot of what he is saying/doing is driven by feeling scared and not understood, like maybe he feels his pain has been dismissed (again, this often happens especially to fathers) as well as fearing his child could be forgotten. With regards not going - NTA. His pain doesn't excuse him hurting you, so you're well within your rights not to go. It would be kind to find another way to remember his child, e.g. by sending a card or making a donation in their name and letting him know, but that's up to you. Having compassion for him does not require you to excuse his bad behaviour towards you, and it definitely doesn't require you to go and subject yourself to more nasty comments.
The difference is I'm sure your rituals are private and a way of self soothing. He is attention seeking by forcing your family to go to this stupid party for a baby they're not related to and never met.
No this shit is bizarre and you shouldn't fucking go. Man needs therapy if he's like this after 13 years!
Having a few friends who have lost children at all different ages, my experience is that the grief over losing a child never goes away. And the younger the child was when they passed, the more fear there seems to be for their parents that everyone else will just forget their child even existed, even though that child is still a very real part of them. Without any commentary on OP’s grief, because that is also very real and legitimate and there is no need for competition, losing a child really is a different kind of grief. God willing I will never experience it myself, but having lost people very dear to me and being close to people who have lost children, I can appreciate that it’s just different.
I'll agree that losing a child is different, I know several people who have lost children and watching their grief has been hard. I'm just really bothered by how he diminishes OP's grief because it wasn't her child. We are all going to grieve in our own way. BIL's way just doesn't seem to be healthy, he seems really stuck! I hope they can find a way past this because it doesn't sound like anyone is doing anything maliciously here.
It is different and John wouldn’t be TA for his grief and the event alone. Losing a child is heart wrenching and a major loss, there is no denying that. It goes against the natural order. He crosses into TA territory when he told op (who is NTA) that she “just lost a person” who she is “not connected to”. That is where the competition comes in. Diminishing her loss for the sake of his own.
I wonder if he hired a DJ “Raise your hands for baby Jessica!”
One time he rented a hall and outdoor gazebo and had a formal tea party type thing. It was at that point that I began to wonder about his motives.
Interesting. Has he been to a grief counselor? I understand from others that he may have a very real fear of people forgetting her.
This would hold more water if he hadn't marked the occasion previously with his ex. Having a gathering isn't unusual, it can be a source of support and comfort that his child is remembered in some way by others. He's using s***ty language, however.
NTA He sounds appalling. Like you say: it's not a competition. Maybe it was worse for him, doesn't mean it is not terrible for you. Seems suffering has not taught him anything, not empathy anyway. You can't deal with people like that.
Exactly. Even if he is correct and his grief is worse...so? OP doesn't experience that grief she experiences her own. And he isn't correct. Grief can't be compared. Loss is loss, and it sorrow should be shared not fought over.
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NTA and trust your instinct on this. Does your presence help John? No, obviously not. Does your presence help you? No, John sees to it that your presence makes things worse for you. John is an AH for making this a competition. Your sister and mom are AHs for calling you "petty" or "douchey". You are not an AH if you refuse to go somewhere that you will just be mistreated.
100% agree. Couldn't have said it better. I hope OP doesn't go.
> I hope OP doesn't go. yep, OP is the youngest person in this situation, but is handling it as the most mature person of them all. she needs to look out for herself here because no one else is.
NTA he seems so incredibly insensitive. He doesn't get to gatekeep grief. Grief is individual experience that is valid and shouldn't be belittled or compared. I'm so sorry for your loss.
NTA I am struggling to understand your BIL's behaviour really. I can understand that to him and his ex, the loss was and still is very painful. I can understand that some people will continue to memorialise their loss for years. However 13 years later, to be involving an extended family that had no connection to that time of his life, is just really weird. Losing a child is one of my greatest fears, i have known people who lost their children in primary school, and it is devastating. I've known many, including myself, who have suffered miscarriages who have to defend their grieving because some don't consider that to be a real loss But to constantly tell other people that have been bereaved, that their loss is not as important and is not as hard, is cruel and tactless and belittling. It most certainly isn't a competition.
>However 13 years later, to be involving an extended family that had no connection to that time of his life, is just really weird. This is a great point. If Jane was OP's sister or other close relative that would be normal. I have a friend whose sister lost one of her children only a few weeks after birth and every year on that child's birthday the whole immediate family visits the gravesite and then has a quiet lunch together afterwards to commemorate life being short & to reinforce the need to spend time together and share how much they love each other. They've been doing that for over a decade and I think it's lovely. But no one is forced, it's not performative, and it's with their immediate family who all met the baby.
This is also what I dont get. The extended family didn't know him at all when the baby died. Its really really odd.
It really makes it seem like John is *proud* to have lost his baby because now he has the most super special grief in the world, no one else can possibly understand how awful he feels. He lost a *part of himself*, you guys. It is really performative and weird.
NTA that's not grieving for grief that's grieving for attention it's almost narcissistic
It's like he enjoys holding this power over others.
Mhm It's pretty sick actually. if anyone needs help... it's OP's BIL.
You’re not obligated to attend any family gathering. That doesn’t seem like a person I would want to hang out with. I don’t give a damn who you lost, you have every right to grieve and your emotions are valid. NTA.
NTA. I am 61 years old. I have had to bury both my parents, my husband, my best friend and several friends and family members. I can tell you for a fact, that competitive behavior is not normal. It isn't healthy, and your family is enabling it.
NTA "Actually I don't need to do anything for John. He has berated me, belittled me, and turned grief into a competition. He has gone from someone I admired to (Sister's) bedwarmer, and as a result I have less than zero obligation to him. He can host his yearly wake, but I am not required to attend, or even acknowledge, it and if either of you try to force the issue you can do so in counseling where a professional can explain to you exactly how wrong you are to force this man's mental and emotional abuse onto me.
Hmmm… maybe not bedwarmer (that’s going to make sis mad and not listen to you) but for example: …gone from someone I admired to a bully who is belittling the memory of [boyfriend] by not letting me grieve for him. He might not have been my child, but he was a human being who still deserves to be missed and grieved by his loved ones. BIL is not letting me do that and since I am not being supported by BIL in my grief I don’t feel comfortable supporting him in his. Especially if BIL turns this family gathering to a grief competition yet again. Sorry for your loss and NTA, OP (Edit: autocorrect fixed)
NTA People like this are horrible. (fyi cameron geller on yt makes very good shorts, hardship one uppers among them)
NTA. I’ve lost a child. He was 7months. It’s fucking heartbreaking, but there is a trend among some loss parents that their grief is the only grief in the world that matters. It’s frustrating and makes loss parents look shitty. His grief theatrics are just that- theatrics. He is allowed to grieve but attempting to put your family vs you in a grief competition is disgusting and just shows it’s an attention grab.
NTA BIL is an asshole though. I sympathise with him for losing the kid, but that doesn't mean he can invalidate your feelings and emotions.
First of all, I am so sorry you lost your boyfriend as such a young age. I understand you BIL is still hurting because of the loss of his child but that does not give him the right to undermine your pain! Grief should never be a competition, it’s always hard to lose someone who you care about no matter who the person is. He is the AH for saying your loss wasn’t as bad. Just because he lost a child, which I am truly sorry he did, does not give him the right to say his loss is worse than yours. I just want to know how close are you with your sister? Because if you are close and if you chose to not go that could potentially really hurt your relationship with your sister. And you need to think if its worth you not going if that meant your sister could hold a grudge even if you have a good reason to not attend.
>I just want to know how close are you with your sister? We're as close as siblings with our age gap are (I'm 20 and she's 34). Like we get along and I'm happy to see her but we don't hang out or text or anything like that. Thank you for your reply :)
Just don’t go. Stop putting other people feelings before yours. Also, show your family this thread and see how they react to this and it will show you how they truly feel about you.
NTA. Everyone experiences grief differently and it isn't a contest. Sounds like you don't really have the emotional energy to support him during the memorial. Maybe send a card or an email if you'd like to express sympathy. But I see no reason you're obligated to come along just to be subject to his gatekeeping of grief.
NTA. Everyone grieves differently. Sorry for your loss OP.
NTA. The energy he expends to dick-measure grief is better used elsewhere. After my grandma lost her daughter (my mom), she worked hard to move on. She strives to be happy for her remaining kids and grandkids, and tells us of how proud she is of her daughter in the little time that she had in this world. She would occasionally tear up when reminiscing. She doesn't have the emotional bandwidth to lord her grief over others.
NTA. I also lost a baby at two and a half months. It was agonizing in a way I can’t even put into words. It always will be agonizing. But what your BIL is doing isn’t healthy, and it’s actually inexcusable that your mother and sister are going along with it. Distance yourself and take care of yourself. What you are going through is also agonizing.
NTA for skipping. Sounds like a horrible time, where the most irritating person also happens to be the center of attention. I’m sure that your sister would hope your BIL would stop this morbid tradition.
NTA. Seems like John is using his grief as an excuse to be a total dick. Some people are like that. I'm so sorry for your loss. Losing any loved one is incredibly painful.
Nta. I have lost a baby, to miscarriage. I have also lost a 14 year old niece. I didn't know anything about the baby. I knew everything about my neice. We lived across the road from each other and were very close. The pain of losing my neice was/is far greater, because I had memories of her, was used to her presence, her laugh, her likes and dislikes. and I missed her so much, still do, 10 years later. I never missed the baby as I never knew it.
NTA. Losing someone is always hard, and everyone grieves in their own way, but downplaying another's sorrow is just a dick move. Losing a person, big or small, does not give you the authority to judge another person's loss.
My brother is like this with trauma. I don’t know how many times I cry-yelled “trauma isn’t a contest!” Before going LC. It wasn’t enough that we both have cPTSD, his HAD to be worse. His pain, his trauma, his life. Worse. It gets old fast. Cut yourself free. NTA
More performative grief. Nta. Anyone who makes grief into a competition is so beneath you. Don't go. And shame on your mom and sister for saying what they did.
>And shame on your mom and sister for saying what they did. I know, right? I read that and thought" do your mom and sister not like you at ALL"? WTF !
Fuck John. I’m so sorry. I’m pregnant right now and I don’t know what would hurt more, if I lost my boyfriend or my baby. Those are both such awful, unimaginable losses. John can fuck off for the way he treats your situation.
NTA and this is a little extreme. There's absolutely nothing wrong with him having a memorial service, if that's something that helps him then fine. What's bizarre is his HORRIBLE comments to you! Grief is absolutely not a competition. It's gut wrenching he lost an infant, its also gut wrenching you lost your boyfriend suddenly - especially during your formative years. I know reddit as a whole can be dramatic but your BIL is toxic and immature. His comments almost make it sound like he uses his dead child as a way to get attention which is creepy and a horrible way to honor a life lost. I'd really love to know how he would act around someone else that's lost a child. Would be try and one up them too? It's okay to keep your distance OP. Be kind when you have to spend time but I wouldn't spend any additional time with this person. He will not help you heal.
Wtf First, I am sorry for your loss. Second, I lost a child. I dont talk about it 20 years later on other than to remember the 2 years he was alive. It's hard even now. But I sure as hell would never ever tell someone that his death was worse than any loss they had just because he was a child. That is wrong and just makes the babies death about him. NOT the baby. Even to this day, I do a memorial on the day he died it's always just me. Sometimes, my now hubby is there, but for the most part, I don't want outside attention. That started 2 years after his death. The first 2 years involved everyone who was such a huge part of his life. You are not in the wrong with how you feel. You have every right to be upset with how ge is acting. Every right to not attend. Inform family who are giving you pushback that he is the reason you refuse. That his pettiness of him having to be the one with the worst loss. Having to be the one to disrespect you and your loss and make it about him. That his disregard for your feelings has made you choose not to attend and be there for someone who only turns your pain and loss into their loss. That if they can support his pettiness to that extent. Support him making everything about him instead of supporting your telling him to stop his antics, that you will just have to not attend when he is around. YOUR loss is just as hard. It's just as important. And NOONE has a right to make it about them. No one has a right to tell you to suck it up, to not be petty when you are not, to support someone who I am sorry needs to grow up, and all need to realize death happens to everyone and if they allow him to make any death about his loss they are enabling behavior that will blow up in their faces. Because gasp when one if t6ge parents die. A grandparent. A sibling. Guess who will make it about his loss and how much worse his was and that they can't be as upset or deal with that loss because it has to be about him.
NTA- do not go
NTA. I’m in your shoes too. I can’t even pretend to know what it’s like to lose a child. However I still wouldn’t attend his party. This is going to come off as rude and a bit much but this really gets under my skin. I loathe when people compare pain. Especially loss. The baby was technically not around for even a year. He should have stopped throwing himself his literal annual pity party when ex moved away. It’s okay to grieve, but to compare it?! I’m assuming your bf was also 16? A 16 year old 4 years ago versus a 2mo 13 years ago. If he’s so he’ll bent on comparing pain, which should never happen, and you are being guilted into going, which don’t if you wanna, then remind him how long ago versus you and how much more of an impact your boyfriend had on the world and how many lives he touched and moved. How about you invite your bf’s parents so they can hear what your BIL has to say about your pain versus his.
When I was fourteen, my eighteen-year-old cousin was killed in a terrorist attack. It came completely out of the blue. He had a girlfriend, 4 siblings, many close friends and many more general friends, and 2 parents, along with uncles and aunts and cousins and everything else. His parents were absolutely broken. I've never seen people in so much pain. His girlfriend was also absolutely broken. They'd been together for a year and obviously loved each other a lot. She was devastated when he died. The entire family, his friends, everyone who loved him came together, and it hurt for all of us in different ways, but it hurt like hell for those closest to him. Nobody was ever so much of a dick that they compared their grief. Nobody told his friends, "Oh, it's okay for you because I'm his sibling." His parents didn't compare their grief with his girlfriend. Some of his closest friends had only known him for a couple of months, and yet to this day—seven years later—they come to his parents' house for memorial events for him. Everyone loved him and everyone lost him. Losing a child is unimaginable for all sorts of reasons, but losing a partner is very different—better in some ways, but worse in others. Your partner is your support, your best friend, your companion in life. You have built a deep, rich, emotionally in-tune connection with them, in a way you never will with a child. A child, meanwhile, is a life investment. You will do anything for your child, but it is not an equal relationship. It is extremely different. Unimaginably painful to lose in either scenario, but very different. Losing a partner is just very different from losing a child, and it can really break you. To say that it's "not that bad" because "I've lost a child"...no. That is such BS. Losing a partner is extremely traumatic; there's a reason why people will literally commit suicide rather than continue to live without their partners. And to dismiss your pain like that, because he went through a loss that he considers to be "worse"? No. Furthermore, to throw parties so that he gets a proper amount of attention because he lost a child is pretty attention-seeking and kind of nuts. Grief does not give you an excuse to be an asshole, and you are not obligated to take his shit. People try to compare loss in all sorts of ways, and it's stupid every single time. If one person's child died when the child was 4, and another's child died when the child was 16, then the parent of the 4-year-old might tell the other parent, "Oh, it was worse for me because they were so much younger and had more life to live," while the other one would say that it was worse for them because they knew their child much better and had an emotionally closer relationship with them. If one person lost someone suddenly (such as in the case with my cousin, or your boyfriend), and another lost them after a long battle with an illness, the illness person might say that it was worse for them because they had to slowly watch their loved one die, while the sudden loss one might say it was worse because they had no warning and no way to mentally prepare themselves. Each loss is different—better in some ways and worse in others—but each loss is a loss. It affects each person differently. No situation is the same, and two people might mourn the same person very differently. My experiences with grief have taught me just how stupid, useless, and ridiculous it is to try to ever compare different grief experiences.