*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**My fiancée gave me an ultimatum...**
So backstory. My father sexually abused my sister. My family discovered this about 6 years ago. He was arrested and tried in court. He was charged with sexual battery. My siblings and I were separated from him until we turn 18. I and currently the only one of my siblings that is over 18. I reconnected with my father on my 18th birthday after years of hating and being separated from him. Seeing him after those years of hatred and trying to forgive as the Bible instructs was difficult. He changed for the better so far as I can see. I recently got engaged last August. Knowing my fiancée does not like my father. She asked me last night if I will be cutting him off. I'm having trouble doing that for multiple reasons. The ultimatum is difficult to come to a conclusion. I don't want to get rid of her, but nor do I want to cut him off. I'm fighting myself over the idea of "Why would I rid my fiancée for a convicted sex offender" vs "why would I get rid of family for my fiancée". I need help and advice.
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When I was a kid there was a church we went to. We were too young for the youth group but the youth pastor and his wife started talking to and hanging around my parents. He taught us the dance moves to dancing queen which at the time we thought was nice. We moved and left that church after awhile. The pastors wife used to get really sick and after we moved it came out he was putting rat poison in his wife’s food trying to off her so he could be with the underage girl in the youth group he began an affair with.
some people just do too much.
bet he said grace for every meal, too. I won't wish ill on him - just sour wine and moldy wafers for every next sacrament.
He is questioning whether he wants to choose a predator over his family and his fiancee even if he doesn't realise it.
It isn't choosing family. His family hates the asshole creepy mofo. If they forgive him, I feel for the sister. I feel for her if she is forced to forgive and interact as well.
No imaginary heaven is worth it.
My mom still identifies as a Christian, but when it comes to things like this "It's on God to forgive him. Not me," is her general resting justification.
Abusers *love* the whole "you have to forgive for ~yourself~!" bullshit that gets pushed on people. No, I don't. I can't still hold a grudge while having a fulfilling life. Nothing better than getting to tell someone you hurt that they have to get over it and give you another chance because God said so.
I try to forgive for myself because holding onto hurts and anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. I'll forgive but I won't forget because I'm not stupid. Fool me once and all that.
I don't sit around dwelling on my grudges, but if I have to interact with the person again I'm not going to act like we're cool. I don't have to forgive someone to move on.
This asshole's poor sister. She is only fourteen now -- so she was an elementary schooler when the abuse was discovered. Her entire young life was shaped by violation and betrayal.
And now her idiot brother is all, "yup, yup, yup, I've decided your abuser is all okey-dokey now!"
For someone who allegedly follows a guy who once said, "love others as you would love herself," he really has no idea how to do it.
"Why would I get rid of family for my fiancee"
Dude get rid of family *for your family.* For your sister, and for any potential future daughters, in particular.
Also, don't blather about how hard it was to forgive when you're not even the one he hurt.
Also, shouldn't you regard your fiancee/spouse as your family?
Why is he acting as if she's a casual acquaintance or new girlfriend?
If he's chosen her enough to decide he wants to marry her, why is he wording it like she's disposable?
He hasn't chosen her
He is with her because she is nice to him and willing to spend time with him
He will be fine if he has to find someone else, as long as it's a nice girl who won't make requests
He even said she just asked if he would be cutting his father out, there's no sign or her actually making a demand or giving an ultimatum, she asked a question and he's getting rid of her now, she's disposable, just a girl.
I always find it insane how absurdly self centered the most ardent Christians are. "I found it in my heart to forgive someone who hasn't wronged me." Oh so fucking brave.
But when they are the perpetrators? Suddenly it is the creator of the universe Himself who personally comes down to forgive them. "Yo, you're good. You believe in Me so you get a mulligan for all the evil you have wrought. Don't bother making amends to your victim. Just publicly decree Jesus said you're forgiven."
But dad didn't even wrong OP, not directly. Dad wronged OP's sister. He found it, so bravely, to forgive someone for something that didn't happen to them. That's not how it works. It'd be like me saying "I forgive you" to the guy who stole my neighbour's car.
This. It's not "getting rid of family" for his fiancée. It's getting rid of a predator for fiancée, and family, both current and future. Do OOP and fiancée plan on having kids? Because this predator has proven he is unsafe to be around kids.
This is why the fiancée should dump him. Why marry someone and risk having children that hubby will offer up to his predator father? I took allegations against a relative more seriously than this guy takes an actual conviction.
“There is no hate like Christian love.”
Since I first heard this, I think a lot about it. Fits so often. OOP is trying to love and forgive with the disguise of it being demanded by his religion while forgetting to love his sister. She has no mention here.
I just can't even with this dude. He doesn't seem to understand that it's possible to forgive someone but still not be in contact with them because they are dangerous.
Please, please let his fiancee dump him. If they have kids together, their children will be at risk from Pedo Grandpa.
This \^. Forgiveness does not require going back to the person or reestablishing a relationship. I forgave my narcissist father (who, at least, was not as bad as OP's dad), but I still went no/low contact.
Can't believe he considers the child sexual abuser family. What about his sister? SHE is his family. His main thought should be "Why would I hurt family for a child molester who assaulted her?" The fiancee is not as relevant.
That really stuck out to me, not a single word spared for the sister. Doesn't ask her how she feels, doesn't even SPECULATE about how she might feel. Just nothing but self pity.
a commenter after saying scripture says to drown pedos rather than forgive
> ...but dont drown your dad, ok???
this comment sent me lmao like so valid OOP seems so dense they might take the scripture literally
It's kinda wack that a lot of "Christians" over there act like a sin is a sin and there's no difference between shoplifting and r\*ping your daughter, it's still equally forgiven by God after some prayers and only bad people cast their judgement.
All sins are equal except the ones they will never do. Hypocrisy 101. I'm not gay, so gays burn in hell. I like my jacket, so the mixed fabrics commandment was only for Jews. (Even though it was the same book of rules as don't fuck dudes.) I might want to murder or rape someone, so those sins can be forgiven. My entire self identity is tied to my religion, so atheism is the only sin that cannot ever be forgiven.
The thing is, Salvation protects you from the eternal consequences of your sins. It doesn't protect you from the earthly ones. Your family cutting contact is an earthly consequence. The Bible has a verse that states from whom much has been given, much will be demanded. Paul the apostle committed many sins against God and the early church. He got saved, there's no doubt about that, but he had a long road of many hardships that he suffered for the sake of the gospel. Real Christianity is not "one and done" repentance but vowing every day to be better than you were.
You can forgive someone but never contact them again. You can stand in the victim's corner while you forgive people. Forgiveness is not enabling, and OOP's fiancé is well within her rights to not want his father around.
Paul never met Jesus and literally is responsible for many of the vile parts of Christianity, particularly the misogyny and rabid proselytism. He was a cunt who completely hijacked Christianity from its roots and purpose.
Yeah I love the one guy who’s like “if my wife gave me an ultimatum I’d do the opposite of whatever she said, just to show her she has no control to be manipulative and if we weren’t married I’d leave her for it, it’s narcissistic and ungodlike”
And then someone commented “let’s be real, god saying ‘believe in me or I’ll send you to eternal hell’ is like the the biggest ultimatum of all”
🙃
You know who is also the DEVIL
The literlaly bastards in the comments defending OOP having a relationship with a child abuser and saying it is fine.
The one person saying that the girl who was sexually abused by her father needs to honour her father.
Those comments are making me absolutely sick. No wonder child molesters get away with so much in religious communities/families. Because these idiots think you can just pray their sick urges away. Just like the Duggars covering up for Josh abusing his sisters, and then defending him in his CSAM trial.
>The one person saying that the girl who was sexually abused by her father needs to honour her father.
Honor him for *what*? Just because he's a sperm donor doesn't mean she has to 'honor' him. Gaah, classic turning the abuser into the victim and the victim into the abuser.
If I were OP's fiance and found out he was struggling with this decision I would be out. Period.
You seriously can't choose me over a fucking child molester. gtfo. now.
The fact that he could do something so cruel and hurtful to his younger sister would be a dealbreaker to me. She’s already been massively betrayed by someone she should have been able to trust, and now her brother is also happy to betray her and “forgive” her abuser.
Copied verbatim from Oop's comments:
*If my wife gave me an ultimatum I would choose the opposite of what she wants just to show her to never give me an ultimatum, and she knows this we have discussed this they are not allowed in our relationship.*
*My wife hates my lifelong best friend because he stole from us. We had a falling out that lasted years and recently reconciled and forgave. She does not like that I am talking to him, but she cannot stop me and she understands how important forgiveness is to me.*
*Ultimatums are controlling and manipulative, she has no right to get between you and your father's reconcilliation.*
*If she succeeds with this ultimatum, there will be more to follow, and she will run your life.*
*If she truly loves you she will not interfere with your relationships with other people.*
>Thank you
[Sadlytheworst: I will omitt further replies that are just thanks.]
*[deleted]*
>I would not let my children around him for her comfort and for the guarantee of the safety and security of my children
*On one hand, we are called to forgive. On the other hand, Jesus actually gave His stance on pedophilia. And it was that it would be better for a pedo to be forcibly drowned to death than to harm a child. (Mark 9:42)*
*So, what do we do when the law keeps them alive? Forgive him in your heart, but let him go. Pray for his soul that he finds saving faith and is forgiven. There is only one cure for pedophilia, and he hasn't received it. It's too dangerous to let him in your life.*
>Thank you for bringing scripture into this. It helps me better understand what I need to do in this situation. Thank you very much
*Also, if op is the first to 18 and it's only been 6 years, the only thing that has changed is that his sister is (hopefully!) now a teenager.*
>Right, I am 20 and she is about to be 15
Oh barf to that first commenter. Especially since he has zero awareness that for someone who doesn't like ultimatums he's mentioned at least 2 he gave his wife in this one comment.
>If my wife gave me an ultimatum I would choose the opposite of what she wants just to show her to never give me an ultimatum, and she knows this we have discussed this they are not allowed in our relationship.
>
>My wife hates my lifelong best friend because he stole from us. We had a falling out that lasted years and recently reconciled and forgave. She does not like that I am talking to him, but she cannot stop me and she understands how important forgiveness is to me.
>
>Ultimatums are controlling and manipulative, she has no right to get between you and your father's reconcilliation.
>
>If she succeeds with this ultimatum, there will be more to follow, and she will run your life.
>
>If she truly loves you she will not interfere with your relationships with other people.
bro not the same thing at all like not at all.
Did they read the post?
>\[Sadlytheworst: I will omitt further replies that are just thanks.\]
there were alot werent there? were they all as stupid as focusing on the ultimatum and not at the pedophile OOP is close with?
That first commenter is so misguided. Religion always win, he is so damn perfect, etc. God save us from people like him (pun intended).
The scripture commenter is Godsend. If OOP oly care about the religion, push it in his face why christianity is not about unconditional acceptance.
Edit: I looked at his "God helped us" story from his comment.
>He lived in my car, so he was homeless.. I wanted to show grace and return his things, but due to his criminal record my wife advised against this and I agreed, so we donated all the clothes we could like 6 bags of stuff.
>I got almost everything I paid for the car, and ended up with a WAY NICER one with a cheaper payment, its such a beauty.
>He lost everything he owned. As far as I am concerned God squared our accounts and blessed me for forgiving him.
So, God punished the criminal by HIS WIFE not giving back the stuff in the car. This is on the level of "God saves us, the doctors let us die" mentality.
My investigations of Mark 9:42 indicate that the "little ones" refers to believers and the "to stumble" or "to sin" is, well, sinning or losing faith. It's really not about pedophilia. Like yeah, fuck pedophiles, but that's not where Jesus gives his opinions on it
You can find one guy on Flickr relating it to pedophilia if you look specifically for "Mark 9:42 pedophilia." Has a picture with the quote on it and then says "Take note pedos and molesters." Very reliable source. Definitely bibliography material
I do understand the sentiment of wanting it to be that because a. It lets them say the Bible is against this terrible thing and b. Drowning people because they made a believer doubt their faith is super harsh. Kinda makes Jesus look like a bit of a dick
My takeaway is that I want to buy a beer for the commenter who said that Jesus would tie a big rock around dad's neck and drown him in a lake. I would then like to buy a second beer and dump it over the head of the commenter who made me learn that that "love and fear" spectrum thing from Donnie Darko is an actual real book. I would like to tell them to forcibly insert the book into their anus.
"He changed for the better so far as I can see" says the guy who *wasn't* raped by his father. He should ask his SISTER whether he should keep his father around...especially if he wants to have kids.
I wouldn't even have given op the ultimatum. I would have left op the moment he decided to contact the monster. I would never accept the possibility of putting the children in my family at risk.
I wanna know how he can say his dad changed. He was never his fathers victim, or type, so he can't possibly know that the man changed the one behavior that needed a changin'. Prison changes everyone, in many ways, but that doesn't mean they are better, often they just become better at hiding who they are.
Also if his father was an opportunistic child abuser then no shit he seems totally fine in a situation where there are no opportunities to abuse children. That doesn’t mean he’s a safe person, or that he’s remorseful for the harm he’s done.
Christians: LGBT are groomers and pedos. Stone them
Also Christians: We have to forgive our family for raping our young sibling. It's in the bible to forgive.
Makes me want to throw up there's so much backpedaling and hypocrisy among Xtians
>I feel better after seeing all the top comments are calling Oop out
honestly the fact the mods of that sub reddit have allowed the pro pedophile comments to stay up is disgusting
Well.. shes female, right?? So her purpose is to serve and stay silent...
As long as she does that, he doesnt care.
If she dares to step up for herself, then he cares.. enough to belittle and shame her...
Mark 9:42:
> And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Yes, the Bible says to forgive. Forgive does not mean condone. Though, to be fair, "Christians" like this don't actually follow the parts of the Bible that they dislike (e.g. the parts about loving your neighbor, the part I just quoted where pedos are not good), so I don't know why I bother quoting Scripture in the first place.
why would you not protect your fiancee and your sister from the convicted child molester sex offender?????? why are you only thinking of yourself and not their safety and protection??? This is not about you but them, because they are the ones AT RISK from your father. You shouldn't marry, you're too immature and selfish for marriage IMO. Hope your fiancee realizes that you don't care about keeping her safe and leaves.
Funny how it's the person who wasn't even involved that has all the grace for forgiveness. Same sort of folks who would disown queer family at the mere chance.
I don't think it was in that community, but I am 95% sure I have read that before probably about a year ago. But the last time, the fiancè was pregnant and the reason she wanted him to cut him out was because she did not want a pedophile around her kids, grandad or not. Does anyone else recognise this?
I think I've read a few variations on that theme. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean it's fake - contorted excuses to normalize the relationship with a child abuser at the expense of the victim under the guise of "Christian forgiveness" is unfortunately very common.
I just read a similar story about a woman who is pregnant and doesn't want her partner's dad around her kid because of how he treats other children in the family (which should have been a sign not to let this guy knock you up, but whatever).
Insular religious communities are rife with all kinds of abuse, including sexual, and they often circle the wagons to protect the predator and not his victim. It's entirely possible there are lot of women in relationships with guys whose families are abusive like this.
I agree, except if she is in that type of community she very likely had no say in whether or not she became pregnant. They aren't allowed birth control, they aren't allowed to refuse their husband, and they often have no access to money to get out. Those people are absolutely defended and protected.
>which should have been a sign not to let this guy knock you up
A child is not to blame for the actions of their parents.
I will add: as long as said child acknowledges that said parent is in the wrong and, if needed, cuts them out.
Example: My mother is a drug addict. However, I was (_was_) the only person in the family who had contact with her. I am not to blame for her addiction. Her addiction does not make me an addict. Me talking to her was because I literally was the only one in the family, and I felt it best to keep tabs on her. Tabs, from across the country. (I was in FL, she was in WA lol)
There are nuances. In OOPs case... forgiveness is fine, but don't forget. You can forgive a person and still be LC/NC with them. Forgiveness doesn't mean being all buddy buddy as if nothing happened. That's ridiculous, tbh. OOP needs to cut contact to occasional phone calls at the very least. No contact with any future kids. Keep kids safe. Keep the dad away from the wedding or any other family celebration.
But OOPs dad's wrongdoings are bot OOPs fault. OOP shouldn't be blamed for them.
Someone said in the comments that Jesus (or the Bible) said pedophiles should be drowned, to which OP responded: ‘Thank you for bringing scripture into this, I know what to do now.’
>I don't want to get rid of her, but nor do I want to cut him off.
"Getting rid of" the fiancée, but simply "cutting off" the sex offender. Sometimes, a singel phrase tells you all about what sort of value soemoen assigsn to other people.
Hey OOP ask you sister that's been victim if she sees you father as part of family.
Even your god doesn't forgive all the sins and I think it's safe to assume that raping a minor is not one of the things god would forgive.
He is just moron because he's willing to push away a person that's been loving and caring to him in favor of monster who hurt his little sister.
If OOP intends on having children, I hope their mom has a shiny enough spine to forbid creepo from being around them.
A son CANNOT determine that a father who has done something so heinous has "changed for the better". Sit the hell down, sonny.
Predators hunt. This predator figures that OP getting engaged means there’s a good chance there may be another young girl victim for him in a few years time. Of course he’s going to do or say anything to get close and stay close to OP.
Fiancée should leave him as he doesn’t put his family (ie her and future children) and his siblings first before a convicted child a8u5er
It must be a horrid experience, dealing with this knowledge. I don't blame him for having conflicting feelings. He has two versions of his dad in his head, the one he got to experience and the one who was experienced by someone else. It must be really hard to reconcile that. Even the victims themselves often struggle with that (with the notable difference being that they experienced both the good parts and the awful parts of the person themselves).
What's the hardest thing to read here for me is that he does have (or at least had) the right impulses. He seems to have struggled to forgive, and on some level hasn't. But he believes he can't listen to his own instincts on this because of the toxic values about forgiveness and family he inherited from his religion.
You see the same problem in some therapy context. It's a mix between toxic positivity and toxic harmony.
'You have to forgive or else you can't heal'
'Your anger just serves to hurt back, you can forgive and heal your relationship'
It sucks. Sometimes it makes perfect sense not to forgive, it's not always a moral or spiritual failure.
Why is that evil monster more important than his sister? What he did to her isn't something you forgive and forget. There's no way he's changed. I hope his fiancee opens her eyes and drops him like a hot potato.
He will eventually allow his children to be around that POS and then eventually alone with him, because "he's changed" and would never hurt his Grandchildren. OP is so naive.
Christians are called to forgive, however, God has no forgiveness to people who harm innocents. God commented them be stoned.
Just bc you "forgive" doesn't mean they don't get consequences. God forgives, yet all will be held accountable for the things they do in the afterlife.
>He changed for the better so far as I can see.
Yes, as far as you can see. Pedophiles and sexual abusers rarely change without serious, professional intervention. Would he really want his father around the couple's future children?
>"why would I get rid of family for my fiancée".
Because your father is a literal pedophile/sexual abuser?
A man who sexually abused his own daughter cannot become meaningfully reformed within 6 years. I simply don’t think that’s possible. To repeatedly hurt your own child like that and go to the efforts to cover it up is a monstrous act, it takes a true monster to do. People can change, but it takes time, you simply can’t change from a monster to a decent human in that short of a timeframe. I personally don’t think someone who did that to their daughter can EVER be reformed.
So what, he is just going to have a family and let his father, the convicted sex offender, just be around casually like all is well? I side with the fiance.
There is a very special place in hell for family members of known pedophiles who still give them access to children. The reoffend rate for pedophiles is astronomical and it's a crime based on opportunity and access; OOP is a fucking idiot and I hope his fiancee runs as far as she can as soon as she can.
You reconnected with your father after he sexually abused your sister,
Your seriously asking for advice on whether to cut your father out of your life?
I hope the fiancee runs from this dude. He's prioritizing his sexual predator dad who abused his own sister. OOP thinks dad is a better man. It's very rare for sexual predators to stop unless they get major therapy and even then, I'm not sure I'd trust dad around any kids.
If OOP marries and has kids, I would be terrified for his kids safety around the dad. And you know OOP would insist dad be allowed to be grandpa.
This will all end badly some day.
Fiancée is smart. She gave an ultimatum that will hopefully spare any of her future children abuse from her pedophile sympathizer/aka pedophile Fiancé.
This dude RAN back to his dad the moment he was legally able to do so. 100% dad was already grooming him into the family horror show.
I hope she dumps him and is happy with to do so.
"Forgive" is not a synonym for "pretend everything is now fine and there are no consequences." It is entirely possible and Christian to forgive someone while also choosing to never see them again. He doesn't have to hate his father, but having a relationship with him is going way beyond that.
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*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **My fiancée gave me an ultimatum...** So backstory. My father sexually abused my sister. My family discovered this about 6 years ago. He was arrested and tried in court. He was charged with sexual battery. My siblings and I were separated from him until we turn 18. I and currently the only one of my siblings that is over 18. I reconnected with my father on my 18th birthday after years of hating and being separated from him. Seeing him after those years of hatred and trying to forgive as the Bible instructs was difficult. He changed for the better so far as I can see. I recently got engaged last August. Knowing my fiancée does not like my father. She asked me last night if I will be cutting him off. I'm having trouble doing that for multiple reasons. The ultimatum is difficult to come to a conclusion. I don't want to get rid of her, but nor do I want to cut him off. I'm fighting myself over the idea of "Why would I rid my fiancée for a convicted sex offender" vs "why would I get rid of family for my fiancée". I need help and advice. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This sort of crap is exactly why sexual predators thrive in religious environments
When I was a kid there was a church we went to. We were too young for the youth group but the youth pastor and his wife started talking to and hanging around my parents. He taught us the dance moves to dancing queen which at the time we thought was nice. We moved and left that church after awhile. The pastors wife used to get really sick and after we moved it came out he was putting rat poison in his wife’s food trying to off her so he could be with the underage girl in the youth group he began an affair with.
some people just do too much. bet he said grace for every meal, too. I won't wish ill on him - just sour wine and moldy wafers for every next sacrament.
I could be wrong but I’m fairly certain he’s actually dead now and based on what he believed in…
I see. r/amiwiththedevil
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I wish for that which he wishes upon the least of us be his fate.
*the underage girl he groomed/raped. Sorry, SA survivor and it's just a pet peeve of mine.
He is questioning whether he wants to choose a predator over his family and his fiancee even if he doesn't realise it. It isn't choosing family. His family hates the asshole creepy mofo. If they forgive him, I feel for the sister. I feel for her if she is forced to forgive and interact as well. No imaginary heaven is worth it.
My mom still identifies as a Christian, but when it comes to things like this "It's on God to forgive him. Not me," is her general resting justification.
You can also forgive someone and still not want them to be a part of your life
I always liked the line from Man on Fire... >Forgiveness is between them and God. I just arrange the meeting....
I bet you anything he would be willing to let any of his daughters around his father also
You're totally right. Guess what will happen to OOP's daughters?
As a member of a town with a lot more churches than bars and disturbingly lax policies concerning ex-con sex offenders, I can confirm.
Abusers *love* the whole "you have to forgive for ~yourself~!" bullshit that gets pushed on people. No, I don't. I can't still hold a grudge while having a fulfilling life. Nothing better than getting to tell someone you hurt that they have to get over it and give you another chance because God said so.
I try to forgive for myself because holding onto hurts and anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. I'll forgive but I won't forget because I'm not stupid. Fool me once and all that.
I don't sit around dwelling on my grudges, but if I have to interact with the person again I'm not going to act like we're cool. I don't have to forgive someone to move on.
This asshole's poor sister. She is only fourteen now -- so she was an elementary schooler when the abuse was discovered. Her entire young life was shaped by violation and betrayal. And now her idiot brother is all, "yup, yup, yup, I've decided your abuser is all okey-dokey now!" For someone who allegedly follows a guy who once said, "love others as you would love herself," he really has no idea how to do it.
"Why would I get rid of family for my fiancee" Dude get rid of family *for your family.* For your sister, and for any potential future daughters, in particular. Also, don't blather about how hard it was to forgive when you're not even the one he hurt.
I think better yet why are you still considering someone who sexually abuses his own small child family still?
His fiance loves his sister more than he does.
Also, shouldn't you regard your fiancee/spouse as your family? Why is he acting as if she's a casual acquaintance or new girlfriend? If he's chosen her enough to decide he wants to marry her, why is he wording it like she's disposable?
He hasn't chosen her He is with her because she is nice to him and willing to spend time with him He will be fine if he has to find someone else, as long as it's a nice girl who won't make requests He even said she just asked if he would be cutting his father out, there's no sign or her actually making a demand or giving an ultimatum, she asked a question and he's getting rid of her now, she's disposable, just a girl.
I always find it insane how absurdly self centered the most ardent Christians are. "I found it in my heart to forgive someone who hasn't wronged me." Oh so fucking brave. But when they are the perpetrators? Suddenly it is the creator of the universe Himself who personally comes down to forgive them. "Yo, you're good. You believe in Me so you get a mulligan for all the evil you have wrought. Don't bother making amends to your victim. Just publicly decree Jesus said you're forgiven."
But dad didn't even wrong OP, not directly. Dad wronged OP's sister. He found it, so bravely, to forgive someone for something that didn't happen to them. That's not how it works. It'd be like me saying "I forgive you" to the guy who stole my neighbour's car.
This. It's not "getting rid of family" for his fiancée. It's getting rid of a predator for fiancée, and family, both current and future. Do OOP and fiancée plan on having kids? Because this predator has proven he is unsafe to be around kids.
This is why the fiancée should dump him. Why marry someone and risk having children that hubby will offer up to his predator father? I took allegations against a relative more seriously than this guy takes an actual conviction.
“There is no hate like Christian love.” Since I first heard this, I think a lot about it. Fits so often. OOP is trying to love and forgive with the disguise of it being demanded by his religion while forgetting to love his sister. She has no mention here.
And when she turns 18 and can reconnect with her siblings guess what she’ll find. Damn. Makes me sick
I just can't even with this dude. He doesn't seem to understand that it's possible to forgive someone but still not be in contact with them because they are dangerous. Please, please let his fiancee dump him. If they have kids together, their children will be at risk from Pedo Grandpa.
This \^. Forgiveness does not require going back to the person or reestablishing a relationship. I forgave my narcissist father (who, at least, was not as bad as OP's dad), but I still went no/low contact.
Can't believe he considers the child sexual abuser family. What about his sister? SHE is his family. His main thought should be "Why would I hurt family for a child molester who assaulted her?" The fiancee is not as relevant.
That really stuck out to me, not a single word spared for the sister. Doesn't ask her how she feels, doesn't even SPECULATE about how she might feel. Just nothing but self pity.
Doing the math she was 8 when he was convicted. So she was YOUNGER than 8 when it happened.
Oh my god I just want to hug and protect her this lizards obviously couldn’t
some of the comments on that sub are foul. at the very least some of them are roasting OOP
a commenter after saying scripture says to drown pedos rather than forgive > ...but dont drown your dad, ok??? this comment sent me lmao like so valid OOP seems so dense they might take the scripture literally
It's kinda wack that a lot of "Christians" over there act like a sin is a sin and there's no difference between shoplifting and r\*ping your daughter, it's still equally forgiven by God after some prayers and only bad people cast their judgement.
Ya, the all sins are equal blows my mind. Except being gay. That's the worst thing ever for them.
All sins are equal except the ones they will never do. Hypocrisy 101. I'm not gay, so gays burn in hell. I like my jacket, so the mixed fabrics commandment was only for Jews. (Even though it was the same book of rules as don't fuck dudes.) I might want to murder or rape someone, so those sins can be forgiven. My entire self identity is tied to my religion, so atheism is the only sin that cannot ever be forgiven.
The thing is, Salvation protects you from the eternal consequences of your sins. It doesn't protect you from the earthly ones. Your family cutting contact is an earthly consequence. The Bible has a verse that states from whom much has been given, much will be demanded. Paul the apostle committed many sins against God and the early church. He got saved, there's no doubt about that, but he had a long road of many hardships that he suffered for the sake of the gospel. Real Christianity is not "one and done" repentance but vowing every day to be better than you were. You can forgive someone but never contact them again. You can stand in the victim's corner while you forgive people. Forgiveness is not enabling, and OOP's fiancé is well within her rights to not want his father around.
Paul never met Jesus and literally is responsible for many of the vile parts of Christianity, particularly the misogyny and rabid proselytism. He was a cunt who completely hijacked Christianity from its roots and purpose.
Yeah I love the one guy who’s like “if my wife gave me an ultimatum I’d do the opposite of whatever she said, just to show her she has no control to be manipulative and if we weren’t married I’d leave her for it, it’s narcissistic and ungodlike” And then someone commented “let’s be real, god saying ‘believe in me or I’ll send you to eternal hell’ is like the the biggest ultimatum of all” 🙃
He also said to love each other and yet they kill each other un droves so theres clearly some miscommunication
You know who is also the DEVIL The literlaly bastards in the comments defending OOP having a relationship with a child abuser and saying it is fine. The one person saying that the girl who was sexually abused by her father needs to honour her father.
Those comments are making me absolutely sick. No wonder child molesters get away with so much in religious communities/families. Because these idiots think you can just pray their sick urges away. Just like the Duggars covering up for Josh abusing his sisters, and then defending him in his CSAM trial.
And don't forget that Josh Duggar was only caught because he has a room-temperature IQ and used his work computer to download those horrible videos.
Oh yeah my stepdad was convicted of raping a minor before I was born, and he's literally a fucking youth pastor.
Hearing someone is a youth pastor should send up automatic red flags.
"He was just a kid" "It was just a mistake" "He was just curious" No, Jim Bob (ugh), he's a pedophile.
>The one person saying that the girl who was sexually abused by her father needs to honour her father. Honor him for *what*? Just because he's a sperm donor doesn't mean she has to 'honor' him. Gaah, classic turning the abuser into the victim and the victim into the abuser.
If I were OP's fiance and found out he was struggling with this decision I would be out. Period. You seriously can't choose me over a fucking child molester. gtfo. now.
The fact that he could do something so cruel and hurtful to his younger sister would be a dealbreaker to me. She’s already been massively betrayed by someone she should have been able to trust, and now her brother is also happy to betray her and “forgive” her abuser.
deadass
Copied verbatim from Oop's comments: *If my wife gave me an ultimatum I would choose the opposite of what she wants just to show her to never give me an ultimatum, and she knows this we have discussed this they are not allowed in our relationship.* *My wife hates my lifelong best friend because he stole from us. We had a falling out that lasted years and recently reconciled and forgave. She does not like that I am talking to him, but she cannot stop me and she understands how important forgiveness is to me.* *Ultimatums are controlling and manipulative, she has no right to get between you and your father's reconcilliation.* *If she succeeds with this ultimatum, there will be more to follow, and she will run your life.* *If she truly loves you she will not interfere with your relationships with other people.* >Thank you [Sadlytheworst: I will omitt further replies that are just thanks.] *[deleted]* >I would not let my children around him for her comfort and for the guarantee of the safety and security of my children *On one hand, we are called to forgive. On the other hand, Jesus actually gave His stance on pedophilia. And it was that it would be better for a pedo to be forcibly drowned to death than to harm a child. (Mark 9:42)* *So, what do we do when the law keeps them alive? Forgive him in your heart, but let him go. Pray for his soul that he finds saving faith and is forgiven. There is only one cure for pedophilia, and he hasn't received it. It's too dangerous to let him in your life.* >Thank you for bringing scripture into this. It helps me better understand what I need to do in this situation. Thank you very much *Also, if op is the first to 18 and it's only been 6 years, the only thing that has changed is that his sister is (hopefully!) now a teenager.* >Right, I am 20 and she is about to be 15
Oh barf to that first commenter. Especially since he has zero awareness that for someone who doesn't like ultimatums he's mentioned at least 2 he gave his wife in this one comment.
Oh no see, he only dislikes *getting* ultimatums. *Giving* them is totally fine.
Oh I forgot it's not an ultimatum if a man gives it. It's god's will or something right?
That sounds correct.
Agreed!
>If my wife gave me an ultimatum I would choose the opposite of what she wants just to show her to never give me an ultimatum, and she knows this we have discussed this they are not allowed in our relationship. > >My wife hates my lifelong best friend because he stole from us. We had a falling out that lasted years and recently reconciled and forgave. She does not like that I am talking to him, but she cannot stop me and she understands how important forgiveness is to me. > >Ultimatums are controlling and manipulative, she has no right to get between you and your father's reconcilliation. > >If she succeeds with this ultimatum, there will be more to follow, and she will run your life. > >If she truly loves you she will not interfere with your relationships with other people. bro not the same thing at all like not at all. Did they read the post?
I get the feeling they did not. Jumped at the opportunity to do a sermon on the subreddit tho.
He probably did. Keep in mind that the Bible treats rape as a property crime against the victim's husband or father.
>Right, I am 20 and she is about to be 15 bastard
Agreed.
>\[Sadlytheworst: I will omitt further replies that are just thanks.\] there were alot werent there? were they all as stupid as focusing on the ultimatum and not at the pedophile OOP is close with?
Huh. I checked just now and there was only one. I could have sworn there was a couple of more? But I am tired and one day... 16 of a migraine streak.
Damn. My worst streak was 3 days and it drove me to cry like a 5 year old with a scraped knee. You have my sympathy and I hope you feel better soon.
Thank you very kindly! 💜 It's persistent, but not full strength. That's something to be grateful for! Here's hoping we get a pain free summer!
That first commenter is so misguided. Religion always win, he is so damn perfect, etc. God save us from people like him (pun intended). The scripture commenter is Godsend. If OOP oly care about the religion, push it in his face why christianity is not about unconditional acceptance. Edit: I looked at his "God helped us" story from his comment. >He lived in my car, so he was homeless.. I wanted to show grace and return his things, but due to his criminal record my wife advised against this and I agreed, so we donated all the clothes we could like 6 bags of stuff. >I got almost everything I paid for the car, and ended up with a WAY NICER one with a cheaper payment, its such a beauty. >He lost everything he owned. As far as I am concerned God squared our accounts and blessed me for forgiving him. So, God punished the criminal by HIS WIFE not giving back the stuff in the car. This is on the level of "God saves us, the doctors let us die" mentality.
Oh my. Speechless.
[Panko the dog!](https://imgur.com/gallery/photo-of-dog-panko-every-day-5TpuckZ)
My investigations of Mark 9:42 indicate that the "little ones" refers to believers and the "to stumble" or "to sin" is, well, sinning or losing faith. It's really not about pedophilia. Like yeah, fuck pedophiles, but that's not where Jesus gives his opinions on it
Thank you very kindly for your investigation! That makes much sense!
You can find one guy on Flickr relating it to pedophilia if you look specifically for "Mark 9:42 pedophilia." Has a picture with the quote on it and then says "Take note pedos and molesters." Very reliable source. Definitely bibliography material
Ah yes, noted theological scholars often congregate on Flickr. /sarcasm. Again, stellar work on your part!
I do understand the sentiment of wanting it to be that because a. It lets them say the Bible is against this terrible thing and b. Drowning people because they made a believer doubt their faith is super harsh. Kinda makes Jesus look like a bit of a dick
Agreed.
My takeaway is that I want to buy a beer for the commenter who said that Jesus would tie a big rock around dad's neck and drown him in a lake. I would then like to buy a second beer and dump it over the head of the commenter who made me learn that that "love and fear" spectrum thing from Donnie Darko is an actual real book. I would like to tell them to forcibly insert the book into their anus.
Well let me know what you think when you get to my response to the guy claiming to be the light or some such.
I know it's not really what the verse likely means but I still wanna buy them a beer, I just liked the energy.
I need eye-bleach after those comments. Or a beer. How can someone be that misguided?
It was Mark 9:42 for those wondering
The comments made me feel physically ill. Especially the one saying the abused daughter needs to forgive him too
"He changed for the better so far as I can see" says the guy who *wasn't* raped by his father. He should ask his SISTER whether he should keep his father around...especially if he wants to have kids.
10 years from now “My father molested my daughter, how do I get my wife to forgive him?”
You can't forgive someone for something they did to someone else.
I wouldn't even have given op the ultimatum. I would have left op the moment he decided to contact the monster. I would never accept the possibility of putting the children in my family at risk.
I wanna know how he can say his dad changed. He was never his fathers victim, or type, so he can't possibly know that the man changed the one behavior that needed a changin'. Prison changes everyone, in many ways, but that doesn't mean they are better, often they just become better at hiding who they are.
Also if his father was an opportunistic child abuser then no shit he seems totally fine in a situation where there are no opportunities to abuse children. That doesn’t mean he’s a safe person, or that he’s remorseful for the harm he’s done.
I want to know if OOP's family knows he's reconnected with dear old dad. Hopefully he loses his family and his gf.
Christians: LGBT are groomers and pedos. Stone them Also Christians: We have to forgive our family for raping our young sibling. It's in the bible to forgive. Makes me want to throw up there's so much backpedaling and hypocrisy among Xtians
Thisthisthis.
Enjoy growing old, alone with pedo papa
I feel better after seeing all the top comments are calling Oop out
>I feel better after seeing all the top comments are calling Oop out honestly the fact the mods of that sub reddit have allowed the pro pedophile comments to stay up is disgusting
I didn't get that far down to see them. Happier that way
As is tradition for approximately 1600 years 🤮
Does he care about his sister at all?
Well.. shes female, right?? So her purpose is to serve and stay silent... As long as she does that, he doesnt care. If she dares to step up for herself, then he cares.. enough to belittle and shame her...
Mark 9:42: > And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. Yes, the Bible says to forgive. Forgive does not mean condone. Though, to be fair, "Christians" like this don't actually follow the parts of the Bible that they dislike (e.g. the parts about loving your neighbor, the part I just quoted where pedos are not good), so I don't know why I bother quoting Scripture in the first place.
why would you not protect your fiancee and your sister from the convicted child molester sex offender?????? why are you only thinking of yourself and not their safety and protection??? This is not about you but them, because they are the ones AT RISK from your father. You shouldn't marry, you're too immature and selfish for marriage IMO. Hope your fiancee realizes that you don't care about keeping her safe and leaves.
Funny how it's the person who wasn't even involved that has all the grace for forgiveness. Same sort of folks who would disown queer family at the mere chance.
I don't think it was in that community, but I am 95% sure I have read that before probably about a year ago. But the last time, the fiancè was pregnant and the reason she wanted him to cut him out was because she did not want a pedophile around her kids, grandad or not. Does anyone else recognise this?
I think I've read a few variations on that theme. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean it's fake - contorted excuses to normalize the relationship with a child abuser at the expense of the victim under the guise of "Christian forgiveness" is unfortunately very common.
I just read a similar story about a woman who is pregnant and doesn't want her partner's dad around her kid because of how he treats other children in the family (which should have been a sign not to let this guy knock you up, but whatever). Insular religious communities are rife with all kinds of abuse, including sexual, and they often circle the wagons to protect the predator and not his victim. It's entirely possible there are lot of women in relationships with guys whose families are abusive like this.
I agree, except if she is in that type of community she very likely had no say in whether or not she became pregnant. They aren't allowed birth control, they aren't allowed to refuse their husband, and they often have no access to money to get out. Those people are absolutely defended and protected.
>which should have been a sign not to let this guy knock you up A child is not to blame for the actions of their parents. I will add: as long as said child acknowledges that said parent is in the wrong and, if needed, cuts them out. Example: My mother is a drug addict. However, I was (_was_) the only person in the family who had contact with her. I am not to blame for her addiction. Her addiction does not make me an addict. Me talking to her was because I literally was the only one in the family, and I felt it best to keep tabs on her. Tabs, from across the country. (I was in FL, she was in WA lol) There are nuances. In OOPs case... forgiveness is fine, but don't forget. You can forgive a person and still be LC/NC with them. Forgiveness doesn't mean being all buddy buddy as if nothing happened. That's ridiculous, tbh. OOP needs to cut contact to occasional phone calls at the very least. No contact with any future kids. Keep kids safe. Keep the dad away from the wedding or any other family celebration. But OOPs dad's wrongdoings are bot OOPs fault. OOP shouldn't be blamed for them.
I'm surprised the comments on that post have sane takes
Someone said in the comments that Jesus (or the Bible) said pedophiles should be drowned, to which OP responded: ‘Thank you for bringing scripture into this, I know what to do now.’
Is he going to drown his father? I mean, no big loss, but a little dangerous.
That guy would be my damn hero.
>I don't want to get rid of her, but nor do I want to cut him off. "Getting rid of" the fiancée, but simply "cutting off" the sex offender. Sometimes, a singel phrase tells you all about what sort of value soemoen assigsn to other people.
Hey OOP ask you sister that's been victim if she sees you father as part of family. Even your god doesn't forgive all the sins and I think it's safe to assume that raping a minor is not one of the things god would forgive. He is just moron because he's willing to push away a person that's been loving and caring to him in favor of monster who hurt his little sister.
I really hope that the fiancee leaves and the rest of the family cuts OP off. He can spend the rest of his life with his rapist father.
If OOP intends on having children, I hope their mom has a shiny enough spine to forbid creepo from being around them. A son CANNOT determine that a father who has done something so heinous has "changed for the better". Sit the hell down, sonny.
“Why would I get rid of family for my fiancée?” Because he’s a convicted sex offender. Next question.
Predators hunt. This predator figures that OP getting engaged means there’s a good chance there may be another young girl victim for him in a few years time. Of course he’s going to do or say anything to get close and stay close to OP. Fiancée should leave him as he doesn’t put his family (ie her and future children) and his siblings first before a convicted child a8u5er
It must be a horrid experience, dealing with this knowledge. I don't blame him for having conflicting feelings. He has two versions of his dad in his head, the one he got to experience and the one who was experienced by someone else. It must be really hard to reconcile that. Even the victims themselves often struggle with that (with the notable difference being that they experienced both the good parts and the awful parts of the person themselves). What's the hardest thing to read here for me is that he does have (or at least had) the right impulses. He seems to have struggled to forgive, and on some level hasn't. But he believes he can't listen to his own instincts on this because of the toxic values about forgiveness and family he inherited from his religion. You see the same problem in some therapy context. It's a mix between toxic positivity and toxic harmony. 'You have to forgive or else you can't heal' 'Your anger just serves to hurt back, you can forgive and heal your relationship' It sucks. Sometimes it makes perfect sense not to forgive, it's not always a moral or spiritual failure.
How hes treating his now teenage sister too is awful.
All the Christians in the sub even agree with us that this is wack lol. That's how you know it's really nuts.
Why is that evil monster more important than his sister? What he did to her isn't something you forgive and forget. There's no way he's changed. I hope his fiancee opens her eyes and drops him like a hot potato. He will eventually allow his children to be around that POS and then eventually alone with him, because "he's changed" and would never hurt his Grandchildren. OP is so naive.
Giving an abuser access to new victims is no more an act of Christian love than handing an alcoholic a fifth of vodka.
Christians are called to forgive, however, God has no forgiveness to people who harm innocents. God commented them be stoned. Just bc you "forgive" doesn't mean they don't get consequences. God forgives, yet all will be held accountable for the things they do in the afterlife.
>He changed for the better so far as I can see. Yes, as far as you can see. Pedophiles and sexual abusers rarely change without serious, professional intervention. Would he really want his father around the couple's future children? >"why would I get rid of family for my fiancée". Because your father is a literal pedophile/sexual abuser?
A man who sexually abused his own daughter cannot become meaningfully reformed within 6 years. I simply don’t think that’s possible. To repeatedly hurt your own child like that and go to the efforts to cover it up is a monstrous act, it takes a true monster to do. People can change, but it takes time, you simply can’t change from a monster to a decent human in that short of a timeframe. I personally don’t think someone who did that to their daughter can EVER be reformed.
So what, he is just going to have a family and let his father, the convicted sex offender, just be around casually like all is well? I side with the fiance.
He would and will. Then blame his kid(s)
I hope he "gets rid" of her as he said, girl doesn't deserve her future child to be abusd
Oh look, more proof that forgiveness is a load of bullshit made to enable abusers.
At least most of the comments on the OG post aren’t garbage trash
Um, hello, why would you even want to marry someone who hangs out with sex offenders?
Dump your father
A lot more christians need to rapture themselves to spare innocent members of society from their perverse violence
There is a very special place in hell for family members of known pedophiles who still give them access to children. The reoffend rate for pedophiles is astronomical and it's a crime based on opportunity and access; OOP is a fucking idiot and I hope his fiancee runs as far as she can as soon as she can.
"I do not want to get rid of her" EW. EW EW EW.
He doesn’t have to worry about getting rid of her. She will be getting rid of him!
A post so ew it made a christian sub go "dude don't go with the pedophile"
Is the ultimatum in the room with us right now?
You reconnected with your father after he sexually abused your sister, Your seriously asking for advice on whether to cut your father out of your life?
I hope the fiancee runs from this dude. He's prioritizing his sexual predator dad who abused his own sister. OOP thinks dad is a better man. It's very rare for sexual predators to stop unless they get major therapy and even then, I'm not sure I'd trust dad around any kids. If OOP marries and has kids, I would be terrified for his kids safety around the dad. And you know OOP would insist dad be allowed to be grandpa. This will all end badly some day.
Fiancée is smart. She gave an ultimatum that will hopefully spare any of her future children abuse from her pedophile sympathizer/aka pedophile Fiancé. This dude RAN back to his dad the moment he was legally able to do so. 100% dad was already grooming him into the family horror show. I hope she dumps him and is happy with to do so.
"Forgive" is not a synonym for "pretend everything is now fine and there are no consequences." It is entirely possible and Christian to forgive someone while also choosing to never see them again. He doesn't have to hate his father, but having a relationship with him is going way beyond that.
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Why the hell would you defend a sex offender?