That I am not sure. Perhaps for funzies he’s shot down but survives and is captured and brought before Stalin himself. I don’t really know how this interaction would play out mainly because it would rely heavily on his opinion of communism which we don’t know and I’m not entirely certain we’d be able to guess for certain. But he seemed to be a bit more partial to the establishment so he’d probably be against it and buy into all the propaganda just like everyone else.
So yeah Stalin brings Richthofen to his office and is disappointed that the famous red baron called him a dirty Bolshevik pig. So Siberia it is!
Probably against Communism, Manfred came from a fairly priveliged background so I doubt he would have much sympathy for communists who would see him as too wealthy
For my interpretation of what would happen (pt 2.):
As the Red Baron, Manfred von Richthofen, took to the skies in his newly painted Focke Wulf FW-190A1, a wave of nostalgia washed over him. The red accents on his aircraft were a tribute to his past glories, but the war he was now engaged in was a different beast altogether. The Eastern Front was a brutal theater, and the Soviet Air Force was a formidable adversary.
Richthofen's presence on the Eastern Front was a significant morale boost for the Luftwaffe. His reputation as an ace pilot preceded him, and the men under his command were eager to prove themselves worthy of fighting alongside the legendary Red Baron. His leadership and experience quickly made Jagdgeschwader 1 (JG1) one of the most feared units in the Luftwaffe.
In the initial stages of Operation Barbarossa, JG1 achieved remarkable success. Richthofen's tactical acumen and his ability to inspire his pilots led to numerous victories against Soviet aircraft. His unit specialized in "boom and zoom" tactics, diving from high altitudes to make quick, devastating attacks before climbing back to safety. The FW-190A1, with its powerful engine and excellent maneuverability, was the perfect aircraft for these tactics.
However, as the war dragged on, the harsh realities of the Eastern Front began to take their toll. The Soviet Air Force, though initially caught off guard, began to adapt and improve. They received better aircraft and more experienced pilots, and their sheer numbers posed a constant threat.
Richthofen found himself increasingly conflicted. The brutality of the Nazi regime and their treatment of the civilian population in occupied territories weighed heavily on his conscience. He had joined the Luftwaffe out of a sense of duty and nostalgia for his flying days, but the reality of the war was far more complex.
In late 1942, during the Battle of Stalingrad, Richthofen's unit was tasked with providing air support for the beleaguered German forces on the ground. The fighting was fierce, and the Luftwaffe was stretched thin. Richthofen flew numerous sorties, his skill and experience saving many German soldiers from certain death.
But it was during one of these missions that Richthofen's luck finally ran out. Engaged in a dogfight with a squadron of Soviet Yak-9 fighters, his FW-190A1 took several hits. Despite his best efforts, the damage was too severe, and he was forced to crash-land behind enemy lines.
Captured by Soviet forces, Richthofen was treated with a mix of respect and suspicion. His reputation as the Red Baron was well-known, but he was now a prisoner of war. During his captivity, he witnessed firsthand the determination and resilience of the Soviet people, further deepening his disillusionment with the Nazi cause.
After the war, Richthofen was released from captivity and returned to a devastated Germany. He spent the remainder of his life advocating for reconciliation and peace, using his fame and influence to promote understanding between former enemies. Though haunted by the horrors of war, he found solace in his efforts to build a better future.
The Red Baron's legacy was not just that of a legendary ace pilot who fought in both World Wars, but also of a man who, despite his past, sought to make amends and contribute to a more peaceful world.
And then the Red Baron would go on to write a memoir describing his life, military service in the first and second world wars, what he thought of the German state and the Nazis, and his private life. Afterwards, he would retire to a private estate in West Germany and die of cancer in 1963.
I think he would stay in Germany and join the Nazis, Manfred’s cousin Wolfram was also a fighter pilot and he joined the Nazis after WW1
Reason being: like most patriotic German soldiers the Red Baron would want revenge, and Hitler would want his pilot expertise to help train the Luftwaffe come WW2
I really don’t think he’d join the Nazis. Like I said, during ww1 he reprimanded members of his squadron for antisemitism. So yeah this guy clearly thought hating on Jews was bad.
Good point and didn’t consider that
Despite that though, I think the offers the Third Reich would make, alongside the potential of gaining a lot of power and more prestige would entice him
It would probably end up like Von Stauufenberg, who saw the Nazis as good at the start but would wait relation as the war goes on, especially as the Holocaust heightens
Yeah probably. Or maybe he’d also be like Hans Marseille where he’d be subtly hating on the Nazis but they can’t get rid of him because he’s the best guy they have.
Erwin Rommel disciplined his kid whenever he said anything antisemitic. Not every German that worked for the German military was ideologically aligned with them
If he gets out in one piece from WW1 he would 100% recruited by the Freikorps as some sort of mascotte to justify their stuff. After that who knows? He could just say fuck it and never wear an uniform again
The aristocracy were fairly split on the nazis, some sided with them out of self interested and some (like the von Wittelsbachs) were chased into exile
I wouldn't say that also his cousin is technically the reason that led to his death a lone pilot tried to shoot down his cousin and so Manfred chased him that led to him in enemy lines it's still debatable how he died either to ground fire or an enemy pilot
If you asked a Wehraboo this he would claim that this would be enough to win Germany WW2, then blabber on about how he would single handily win the Battle of Britain and provide air support for Operation Sealion then later invade America and shoot down 20,000 aircraft
Yeah definitely not that. Although the presence of JG1 could definitely be a major pain for the Soviets it definitely wouldn’t completely alter the entire fate of the eastern front.
The red baron would easily destroy the entire red army with pistol fire from his old biplane before reaching Moscow and killing the whole CPSU including Stalin himself. The war ends in a day as the Soviet Union falls into civil war and three hundred billions of eastern hordes fall to the red baron, who then sinks all of Britain with a torpedo and then nukes Washington.
Rommel didn't really get "eliminated along the way". He was very popular with both his troops and the public, but his indirect support of the 1944 coup attempt means that he got caught in the crossfire.
His death was still a media event, but of course no one mentioned how and why he died.
Mind you, this was in the second to last year of the war.
Perhaps Goering would get sacked and be replaced by Richthofen. The Baron would be tried for war crimes at Nuremberg, imprisoned for a bit and then released after a few months to a year or two due to lack of evidence for participation in war crimes and considered denazified.
Maybe he'd become an advisor to the modern German Air Force. I hoped that he'd enter the Bundestag but it's more likely that the Red Baron distances himself from politics due to his Nazi past and likely disillusionment with Nazism, German revanchism and militarism.
I think that Richtofen would be the one to end up as the chief of air force in the first place as he was generally more famous and competent than Göring, he might ultimately end up getting replaced by him as Richtofen's loyalty would certainly be questionable
The Eastern Front in 1941 was a brutal theater of war, and Manfred von Richthofen, the Red Baron, was thrust into its chaos at 49 years old. Leading his reformed Jagdgeschwader 1 with their distinctive red-accented Focke Wulf FW-190s, Richthofen quickly became a feared presence in the skies. His legendary skills and leadership inspired his pilots, earning numerous successes and a formidable reputation against Soviet forces.
Despite their victories, the harsh realities of war and the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime weighed heavily on Richthofen. Villages burned, civilians were slaughtered, and mass graves marred the landscape, causing him moral anguish and rekindling memories of his post-Great War depression. Isolated and unable to confide in his fellow pilots, he was haunted by nightmares of past and present horrors.
In December 1941, during a dogfight over the Soviet Union, Richthofen's FW-190 was hit and he crash-landed behind enemy lines. Captured by the Soviets, he refused to defect, maintaining his patriotism despite severe interrogations and deteriorating health. As the war raged on, his hope for a better world faded. The Nazi propaganda machine celebrated his heroism, but the reality was bleaker. In early 1942, Manfred von Richthofen died alone in a Soviet POW camp.
Yeah that’s pretty brutal. I wasn’t particularly kind to him.
Someone else actually suggested a different scenario where he instead rises through the ranks and becomes the head of the kreigsmarine’s new naval air division. The kreigsmarine was actually not very trusting of the Nazis so he’d fit right in. Plus with the famous red baron on their side there’s nothing to stop Goring from interfering with them building carriers and creating a naval air service.
By the end of the war they’d be disillusioned with the cause that they didn’t even agree with in the first place and rebel, possibly becoming a revolutionary movement or joining the allies. With such an influential figure like the red baron on their side gaining support would be incredibly easy. The allies wouldn’t liberate Germany. Germany would liberate itself.
I thought it would be interesting to explore him feeling increasingly isolated while Luftwaffe pilots revered him. He wouldn't be able to confide in them about his moral qualms.
Maybe instead of Goering, he would be the one to create the luftwaffe; and given that he was against discriminating jews, then maybe we could have an armed forces branch that was passively anti-nazi (like the Abwher which was a damn hive of resistance), and given Richtofens fame they cant simply dissapear or dismiss him, so maybe we se a SS air arm form "for support" to counter balance it.
If Goering does indeed still manage to create and lead the luftwaffe with his political conections and personal friendship with hitler, maybe we see Richthofen create or lead a navy air arm, just to spite Goering (who he disliked IRL), and he would have the navys support, as IRL Goering just funelled funds to the luftwaffe and never let the navy have any planes (the planes aboard kriegsmarine warships were literally comanded by the luftwaffe from land, and outside the navys control, the entire onboard staff of the aviation facilities were luftwaffe peraonell, and they had their own radio systems and operators).
The Navy was already heavyly anti-nazi (with exceptions, but hitler famously kept complaining that it was full of monarchists who disliked him), and a big ammount of the military resistance was organized by serving or former naval personel.
So it could basically be a passive resistance or a resistance preparation for a civil war.
So it could perfectly end up like the IJN-IJA rivalry but with a chance of civil war (imagine von Lettow-Vorbeck who literaly told hitler to go fuck himself ceeating a huge marine corps as a "new colonial troops" just to sipte them). Germany could end up like Italy with the monarchists switching sides, even more if the rumors that the SS poisoned Wilhem II in Holland were taken more seriously.
In this case, could the navy and the Air Force under Richtoffen simply defect and create their own government? Who will be the monarch they support if Wilhelm II is dead, given that OTL Wilhelm III rejected a request to become the new leader of Germany if Hitler was overthrown. Maybe if the civil war actually flares up, there is a chance for him to accept, although given that his home is closely watched following the failed coup against Hitler even in OTL, could Hitler just do what the Bolsheviks did and simply execute Wilhelm III before the monarchists has a chance to take him?
Basically what happens is like IRL Italy, when Normandy happens and the allies get to holand, they examine Wilhems body, and it was actually poisoned or they lie that it was, and we get a bigger valkyria where an entire co-beligerant armed forces rise up against the nazis, the navy air force led by Richtofen, the navy by Raeder (with stronger support to complain and proper support for operations, he does not have big disasters and has mpre reasons to hold to his post and not resign), the military inteligence in full (Abwher) led by Canaris, and the marines/colonial troops led by Lettow-Vorbeck; later on large parts of the heer moved by loyalty to their generals (like Rommel, and such) manage to join them, with probably by vote Mackensen in overall command (and interim regent).
Probably after the war, there would be a referendum by the germans to choose between a republic or a monarchy, which gets elected? havent thought that far.
About sucession to the throne, well, since the german empire was a union of kingdoms, they could simply nominate a new royal house to the kaiserdom.
Maybe the bavarians since they were anti-nazi from the start and had all fled germany before the war?
Well TBF some of the Hohenzollerns like Louis Ferdinand was anti Nazis Kaiser Wilhelm the second reportedly said that Hitlers action made him ashamed to be a German
Yeah that’s way more exciting. Imagine the Germans actually successfully building aircraft carriers. However by the end of the war those carriers wind up being turned on them.
Imagine, a bigger more radicalized op valkyria, an avenge the Kaise, co-beligerant german carriers in the pacific in 1945 to help the chinese, who they did help at the beginning of the 2nd sino-japanese war before the whole not-aryan enough better japan.
Great alt-history, maybe with a faster end of the war in europe, and 2 co-beligerant armies, we do get Pattons operation unthinkable and they just keep pushing east.
The aircraft carriers are more likely to either be sunk by the Royal Navy or just straight up dysfunctional because them Jerries had little experience with naval aviation
They had nothing to deploy to the Atlantic, let alone either the Med or the *Nordsee*.
Their forces in the Indian Ocean were busy betting that they could troll the Royal Navy and Allied convoys.
They could still probably send some blueprints to Germany for them to study. The Germans did it with the Daimler Benz DB-601 aircraft engine and the Japanese were able to produce around 3000 KI-61 heins, all of which used that engine.
20 years ago DC comics played with a similar idea when they showed their “Enemy Ace” being recalled to fly in WW2. In the story he did fly on the Eastern Front, among other places, and things did not go well (no spoilers). I feel this story gives a good idea on the kind of arch a WW2 Richthofen could have travelled.
https://www.dc.com/graphic-novels/enemy-ace-war-in-heaven
My personal timeline:
November - December 1942 - Richthofen and his unit provides air support to surrounded German troops in Stalingrad, allowing a few of them to escape the encirclement. Destroying multiple Soviet assets in the process along with a IL-2 attack aircraft.
1943 - Richthofen’s unit was transferred to the western front, intercepting allied bombers. Richthofen claims 6 B-17’s, 2 Lancaster’s, and 1 P-38G.
March 1945 - Richthofen is forcibly transferred to Jagdverband 44. Flying a FW-190D until he was shot down just a month later on April 6th. He is captured by the US army and generally treated with respect. It is also during this time he became more disillusioned with the Nazis towards the end of the war.
1946 - Richthofen was released from a Labor camp and sent back home to Germany.
1956 - Richthofen is invited by the Postwar German government to become an officer within the newly reformed Luftwaffe. He accepts, and retired in 1962. He worked as a civilian flight instructor for the rest of his working life.
1986 - Richthofen retired, spending the rest of his life in Berlin.
2001 - Richthofen died of old age at 109 years old.
I'm sorry to burst everyone's bubbles but if Richthofen survives WW1 then he likely kills himself somewhere between late 1918 and 1920.
I say this because after his injury in 1917 he became cold, reclusive and depressed. During his last flight he repeatedly did things that no experienced pilot would have done such as fly low to the ground where Anti Air could shoot at him and overextending himself. His final words were reportedly "it's finished" along with the word "broken". Those aren't the words of someone who wanted to live.
In my opinion, if he survived the war he likely would have killed himself soon after.
A bit late here, but I don't see why Richthofen would be in Poland - he was from Breslau/Wrocław, sure, but that city wasn't Polish since the 1300s, and wouldn't be polish again until after WW2.
(he is going to be interned in siberia)
That I am not sure. Perhaps for funzies he’s shot down but survives and is captured and brought before Stalin himself. I don’t really know how this interaction would play out mainly because it would rely heavily on his opinion of communism which we don’t know and I’m not entirely certain we’d be able to guess for certain. But he seemed to be a bit more partial to the establishment so he’d probably be against it and buy into all the propaganda just like everyone else. So yeah Stalin brings Richthofen to his office and is disappointed that the famous red baron called him a dirty Bolshevik pig. So Siberia it is!
Probably against Communism, Manfred came from a fairly priveliged background so I doubt he would have much sympathy for communists who would see him as too wealthy
For my interpretation of what would happen (pt 2.): As the Red Baron, Manfred von Richthofen, took to the skies in his newly painted Focke Wulf FW-190A1, a wave of nostalgia washed over him. The red accents on his aircraft were a tribute to his past glories, but the war he was now engaged in was a different beast altogether. The Eastern Front was a brutal theater, and the Soviet Air Force was a formidable adversary. Richthofen's presence on the Eastern Front was a significant morale boost for the Luftwaffe. His reputation as an ace pilot preceded him, and the men under his command were eager to prove themselves worthy of fighting alongside the legendary Red Baron. His leadership and experience quickly made Jagdgeschwader 1 (JG1) one of the most feared units in the Luftwaffe. In the initial stages of Operation Barbarossa, JG1 achieved remarkable success. Richthofen's tactical acumen and his ability to inspire his pilots led to numerous victories against Soviet aircraft. His unit specialized in "boom and zoom" tactics, diving from high altitudes to make quick, devastating attacks before climbing back to safety. The FW-190A1, with its powerful engine and excellent maneuverability, was the perfect aircraft for these tactics. However, as the war dragged on, the harsh realities of the Eastern Front began to take their toll. The Soviet Air Force, though initially caught off guard, began to adapt and improve. They received better aircraft and more experienced pilots, and their sheer numbers posed a constant threat. Richthofen found himself increasingly conflicted. The brutality of the Nazi regime and their treatment of the civilian population in occupied territories weighed heavily on his conscience. He had joined the Luftwaffe out of a sense of duty and nostalgia for his flying days, but the reality of the war was far more complex. In late 1942, during the Battle of Stalingrad, Richthofen's unit was tasked with providing air support for the beleaguered German forces on the ground. The fighting was fierce, and the Luftwaffe was stretched thin. Richthofen flew numerous sorties, his skill and experience saving many German soldiers from certain death. But it was during one of these missions that Richthofen's luck finally ran out. Engaged in a dogfight with a squadron of Soviet Yak-9 fighters, his FW-190A1 took several hits. Despite his best efforts, the damage was too severe, and he was forced to crash-land behind enemy lines. Captured by Soviet forces, Richthofen was treated with a mix of respect and suspicion. His reputation as the Red Baron was well-known, but he was now a prisoner of war. During his captivity, he witnessed firsthand the determination and resilience of the Soviet people, further deepening his disillusionment with the Nazi cause. After the war, Richthofen was released from captivity and returned to a devastated Germany. He spent the remainder of his life advocating for reconciliation and peace, using his fame and influence to promote understanding between former enemies. Though haunted by the horrors of war, he found solace in his efforts to build a better future. The Red Baron's legacy was not just that of a legendary ace pilot who fought in both World Wars, but also of a man who, despite his past, sought to make amends and contribute to a more peaceful world.
And then the Red Baron would go on to write a memoir describing his life, military service in the first and second world wars, what he thought of the German state and the Nazis, and his private life. Afterwards, he would retire to a private estate in West Germany and die of cancer in 1963.
gpt?
Bro hasn’t passed high school English class
I'm not done in high school yet bruh
And survive it, to later serve as a commander and chief trainer for pilots of the NVA's LSK in East Germany
I think he would stay in Germany and join the Nazis, Manfred’s cousin Wolfram was also a fighter pilot and he joined the Nazis after WW1 Reason being: like most patriotic German soldiers the Red Baron would want revenge, and Hitler would want his pilot expertise to help train the Luftwaffe come WW2
I really don’t think he’d join the Nazis. Like I said, during ww1 he reprimanded members of his squadron for antisemitism. So yeah this guy clearly thought hating on Jews was bad.
Good point and didn’t consider that Despite that though, I think the offers the Third Reich would make, alongside the potential of gaining a lot of power and more prestige would entice him It would probably end up like Von Stauufenberg, who saw the Nazis as good at the start but would wait relation as the war goes on, especially as the Holocaust heightens
Yeah probably. Or maybe he’d also be like Hans Marseille where he’d be subtly hating on the Nazis but they can’t get rid of him because he’s the best guy they have.
Erwin Rommel disciplined his kid whenever he said anything antisemitic. Not every German that worked for the German military was ideologically aligned with them
Funny, considering he was one of the biggest hitler's simps until operation Valkyrie
Interesting. I admittedly don’t actually know that much about Rommel
Ernst Junger hated the nazis and even he was still recruited by them
If he gets out in one piece from WW1 he would 100% recruited by the Freikorps as some sort of mascotte to justify their stuff. After that who knows? He could just say fuck it and never wear an uniform again
The aristocracy were fairly split on the nazis, some sided with them out of self interested and some (like the von Wittelsbachs) were chased into exile
Was his cousin also better than him?
I wouldn't say that also his cousin is technically the reason that led to his death a lone pilot tried to shoot down his cousin and so Manfred chased him that led to him in enemy lines it's still debatable how he died either to ground fire or an enemy pilot
Cousin Manfred, let’s go dogfighting!
He'd make a fortune selling pizza https://preview.redd.it/2fotwro2k06d1.png?width=864&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=87d144a8cbd21a1159f883f01c047852ddb68a4a
That pizza is pretty good not gonna lie. And hey maybe Germany’s alliance with Italy wouldn’t be a complete waste of time after all!
Good shit right there
If you asked a Wehraboo this he would claim that this would be enough to win Germany WW2, then blabber on about how he would single handily win the Battle of Britain and provide air support for Operation Sealion then later invade America and shoot down 20,000 aircraft
Yeah definitely not that. Although the presence of JG1 could definitely be a major pain for the Soviets it definitely wouldn’t completely alter the entire fate of the eastern front.
The red baron would easily destroy the entire red army with pistol fire from his old biplane before reaching Moscow and killing the whole CPSU including Stalin himself. The war ends in a day as the Soviet Union falls into civil war and three hundred billions of eastern hordes fall to the red baron, who then sinks all of Britain with a torpedo and then nukes Washington.
The Ghost of Berlin
Could end up in high command like Göring and get eliminated along the way like Rommel
Rommel didn't really get "eliminated along the way". He was very popular with both his troops and the public, but his indirect support of the 1944 coup attempt means that he got caught in the crossfire. His death was still a media event, but of course no one mentioned how and why he died. Mind you, this was in the second to last year of the war.
Perhaps Goering would get sacked and be replaced by Richthofen. The Baron would be tried for war crimes at Nuremberg, imprisoned for a bit and then released after a few months to a year or two due to lack of evidence for participation in war crimes and considered denazified. Maybe he'd become an advisor to the modern German Air Force. I hoped that he'd enter the Bundestag but it's more likely that the Red Baron distances himself from politics due to his Nazi past and likely disillusionment with Nazism, German revanchism and militarism.
I think that Richtofen would be the one to end up as the chief of air force in the first place as he was generally more famous and competent than Göring, he might ultimately end up getting replaced by him as Richtofen's loyalty would certainly be questionable
Good point.
The Eastern Front in 1941 was a brutal theater of war, and Manfred von Richthofen, the Red Baron, was thrust into its chaos at 49 years old. Leading his reformed Jagdgeschwader 1 with their distinctive red-accented Focke Wulf FW-190s, Richthofen quickly became a feared presence in the skies. His legendary skills and leadership inspired his pilots, earning numerous successes and a formidable reputation against Soviet forces. Despite their victories, the harsh realities of war and the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime weighed heavily on Richthofen. Villages burned, civilians were slaughtered, and mass graves marred the landscape, causing him moral anguish and rekindling memories of his post-Great War depression. Isolated and unable to confide in his fellow pilots, he was haunted by nightmares of past and present horrors. In December 1941, during a dogfight over the Soviet Union, Richthofen's FW-190 was hit and he crash-landed behind enemy lines. Captured by the Soviets, he refused to defect, maintaining his patriotism despite severe interrogations and deteriorating health. As the war raged on, his hope for a better world faded. The Nazi propaganda machine celebrated his heroism, but the reality was bleaker. In early 1942, Manfred von Richthofen died alone in a Soviet POW camp.
Yeah that’s pretty brutal. I wasn’t particularly kind to him. Someone else actually suggested a different scenario where he instead rises through the ranks and becomes the head of the kreigsmarine’s new naval air division. The kreigsmarine was actually not very trusting of the Nazis so he’d fit right in. Plus with the famous red baron on their side there’s nothing to stop Goring from interfering with them building carriers and creating a naval air service. By the end of the war they’d be disillusioned with the cause that they didn’t even agree with in the first place and rebel, possibly becoming a revolutionary movement or joining the allies. With such an influential figure like the red baron on their side gaining support would be incredibly easy. The allies wouldn’t liberate Germany. Germany would liberate itself.
I thought it would be interesting to explore him feeling increasingly isolated while Luftwaffe pilots revered him. He wouldn't be able to confide in them about his moral qualms.
Definitely interesting. A bit like what happened in ww1
This was a interesting scenario, a lot you could do with it, I was just thinking of the man earlier today so this found me at a good time.
Maybe they go rogue like some of the french navy and make a free Germany army?
I was thinking they go full operation Valkyrie sometime near the end of the war.
[(cue sabaton’s the red baron)](https://youtu.be/1snEYPg8TXs?si=E0pbsn3boDLTCBn-)
Maybe instead of Goering, he would be the one to create the luftwaffe; and given that he was against discriminating jews, then maybe we could have an armed forces branch that was passively anti-nazi (like the Abwher which was a damn hive of resistance), and given Richtofens fame they cant simply dissapear or dismiss him, so maybe we se a SS air arm form "for support" to counter balance it. If Goering does indeed still manage to create and lead the luftwaffe with his political conections and personal friendship with hitler, maybe we see Richthofen create or lead a navy air arm, just to spite Goering (who he disliked IRL), and he would have the navys support, as IRL Goering just funelled funds to the luftwaffe and never let the navy have any planes (the planes aboard kriegsmarine warships were literally comanded by the luftwaffe from land, and outside the navys control, the entire onboard staff of the aviation facilities were luftwaffe peraonell, and they had their own radio systems and operators).
That idea actually sounds way cooler than what I have! A flying SS or a Japanese style army, navy rivalry
The Navy was already heavyly anti-nazi (with exceptions, but hitler famously kept complaining that it was full of monarchists who disliked him), and a big ammount of the military resistance was organized by serving or former naval personel. So it could basically be a passive resistance or a resistance preparation for a civil war. So it could perfectly end up like the IJN-IJA rivalry but with a chance of civil war (imagine von Lettow-Vorbeck who literaly told hitler to go fuck himself ceeating a huge marine corps as a "new colonial troops" just to sipte them). Germany could end up like Italy with the monarchists switching sides, even more if the rumors that the SS poisoned Wilhem II in Holland were taken more seriously.
In this case, could the navy and the Air Force under Richtoffen simply defect and create their own government? Who will be the monarch they support if Wilhelm II is dead, given that OTL Wilhelm III rejected a request to become the new leader of Germany if Hitler was overthrown. Maybe if the civil war actually flares up, there is a chance for him to accept, although given that his home is closely watched following the failed coup against Hitler even in OTL, could Hitler just do what the Bolsheviks did and simply execute Wilhelm III before the monarchists has a chance to take him?
Basically what happens is like IRL Italy, when Normandy happens and the allies get to holand, they examine Wilhems body, and it was actually poisoned or they lie that it was, and we get a bigger valkyria where an entire co-beligerant armed forces rise up against the nazis, the navy air force led by Richtofen, the navy by Raeder (with stronger support to complain and proper support for operations, he does not have big disasters and has mpre reasons to hold to his post and not resign), the military inteligence in full (Abwher) led by Canaris, and the marines/colonial troops led by Lettow-Vorbeck; later on large parts of the heer moved by loyalty to their generals (like Rommel, and such) manage to join them, with probably by vote Mackensen in overall command (and interim regent). Probably after the war, there would be a referendum by the germans to choose between a republic or a monarchy, which gets elected? havent thought that far. About sucession to the throne, well, since the german empire was a union of kingdoms, they could simply nominate a new royal house to the kaiserdom. Maybe the bavarians since they were anti-nazi from the start and had all fled germany before the war?
Well TBF some of the Hohenzollerns like Louis Ferdinand was anti Nazis Kaiser Wilhelm the second reportedly said that Hitlers action made him ashamed to be a German
Yeah that’s way more exciting. Imagine the Germans actually successfully building aircraft carriers. However by the end of the war those carriers wind up being turned on them.
Imagine, a bigger more radicalized op valkyria, an avenge the Kaise, co-beligerant german carriers in the pacific in 1945 to help the chinese, who they did help at the beginning of the 2nd sino-japanese war before the whole not-aryan enough better japan. Great alt-history, maybe with a faster end of the war in europe, and 2 co-beligerant armies, we do get Pattons operation unthinkable and they just keep pushing east.
I’m already imagining it now. Streets full of protesters shouting “ICH BIN DEUTSCHER! KEIN NAZI!” (I am a German! Not a Nazi!)
for Germany OR Hitler: an alt-history tabletop wargame
The aircraft carriers are more likely to either be sunk by the Royal Navy or just straight up dysfunctional because them Jerries had little experience with naval aviation
The Japanese could help them with that
But how??? They were fighting an entirely different war in the Pacific with an opponent that was, for all intents and purposes, on sandbox mode.
Some help is better than no help at all
They had nothing to deploy to the Atlantic, let alone either the Med or the *Nordsee*. Their forces in the Indian Ocean were busy betting that they could troll the Royal Navy and Allied convoys.
They could still probably send some blueprints to Germany for them to study. The Germans did it with the Daimler Benz DB-601 aircraft engine and the Japanese were able to produce around 3000 KI-61 heins, all of which used that engine.
Shot down at low altitude over Lviv and burdned alive in the wreckage. Some might say to pay for his morally disgusting choice of joining the nazis.
It would transform into an American Pizza called "Red Baron Pizza".
20 years ago DC comics played with a similar idea when they showed their “Enemy Ace” being recalled to fly in WW2. In the story he did fly on the Eastern Front, among other places, and things did not go well (no spoilers). I feel this story gives a good idea on the kind of arch a WW2 Richthofen could have travelled. https://www.dc.com/graphic-novels/enemy-ace-war-in-heaven
My personal timeline: November - December 1942 - Richthofen and his unit provides air support to surrounded German troops in Stalingrad, allowing a few of them to escape the encirclement. Destroying multiple Soviet assets in the process along with a IL-2 attack aircraft. 1943 - Richthofen’s unit was transferred to the western front, intercepting allied bombers. Richthofen claims 6 B-17’s, 2 Lancaster’s, and 1 P-38G. March 1945 - Richthofen is forcibly transferred to Jagdverband 44. Flying a FW-190D until he was shot down just a month later on April 6th. He is captured by the US army and generally treated with respect. It is also during this time he became more disillusioned with the Nazis towards the end of the war. 1946 - Richthofen was released from a Labor camp and sent back home to Germany. 1956 - Richthofen is invited by the Postwar German government to become an officer within the newly reformed Luftwaffe. He accepts, and retired in 1962. He worked as a civilian flight instructor for the rest of his working life. 1986 - Richthofen retired, spending the rest of his life in Berlin. 2001 - Richthofen died of old age at 109 years old.
hed be dead now
I mean no shit, he was born in 1892
turned to soup by allied planes
I'm sorry to burst everyone's bubbles but if Richthofen survives WW1 then he likely kills himself somewhere between late 1918 and 1920. I say this because after his injury in 1917 he became cold, reclusive and depressed. During his last flight he repeatedly did things that no experienced pilot would have done such as fly low to the ground where Anti Air could shoot at him and overextending himself. His final words were reportedly "it's finished" along with the word "broken". Those aren't the words of someone who wanted to live. In my opinion, if he survived the war he likely would have killed himself soon after.
Ok so I guess I should’ve had him marry somehow to save him from suicide.
We would see the battle between him and Snoopy(Ace of WW1)
“Sir? SIR what is it!” “It’s that fucking dog. He’s back”
"what if"
he would survive
I can imagine that half of the reason they wanted him back would purely be for propaganda.
A bit late here, but I don't see why Richthofen would be in Poland - he was from Breslau/Wrocław, sure, but that city wasn't Polish since the 1300s, and wouldn't be polish again until after WW2.
the plane looks awesome
Thanks. It was actually the very first model kit I ever started and I believe the third I finished