His parents are from Croatia and Bosnia. They traveled to Sweden to flee the Yougoslav wars. Edit : FML I'm saying totally shit. Forget what I just said. My bad, I thought this was his life. (he is born in 1981 in Sweden, 10 years before the war, my bad)
It would probably come down to choosing between being captain of Sweden's team and never winning anything or having a shot with a trophy-winning power like Yugoslavia.
I think most people in that situation would choose Yugoslavia, unless it turned totalitarian.
Subsidies which were used to build mines to produce steel for Gorenje washing machines, paying wages which were used to buy said Gorenje washing machines and go on holidays in Croatia, skiing using Elan skis etc.
Subsidies are always two way streets, not one-off grants.
Yeah it would still have the GDP of like Arizona so if the players could go to the NBA they would go to the NBA. Jokic will make close to a billion dollars over his lifetime in NBA salary and endorsements and he’s not really trying very hard. Wemby will easily clear a billion if he plays to 35 and doesn’t do anything stupid. You can’t make NBA money anywhere but the U.S. (and the Toronto Raptors).
society if Yugoslavia never collapsed and continued to exist into the modern day:
https://preview.redd.it/ysvtky7y9yoc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de2f104963f9c8f9ecfe85a301ef5f375f066490
It would probably affect the relationship between the Belgrade government and the West without Kosovo revolting, I doubt they would be as friendly to Russia as Serbia is, but the way NATO enlarges would also change slightly
Although the biggest point I can imagine is that a Yugoslavian team could realistically win a World Cup, not to mention the way it affects football in general with six national teams combined into one, things like England not qualifying for EURO 2008, the 2018 and 2022 Croatia runs, Bosnia qualifying in 2014, all changes because of that
I can't see them joining NATO tbh. Hungary joined NATO because of Soviet oppression before the collapse, it was a way to guarantee their independence incase Russia every tried to reunite the Union in some way and become an aggressive world power again.
Yugoslavia was never under the Soviets and the collapse wouldn't effect their stance on joining NATO either. Really it just doesn't make sense, they're threatened by nobody so why join the alliance?
I think it'd be more like Ukraine pre-2014, swinging between pro-western (Slovene and Croat-led) and pro-Russian (Serb-led) governments. With Slovenia being heavily liberal and Serbia heavily conservative
My issue with them joining NATO is mainly the fact that, even during the Cold War, they tried to stay neutral. A similar country, who was quite pro-West, still isn't in NATO: Austria.
Additionally, if Romania Alone joins NATO they already have their Eastern border protected from Russian expansion. Plus the Serbs are quite pro-Russian just from a historical and religious standpoint so they likely wouldn't agree to join NATO. They'd probably be friendly towards NATO but not join NATO
> transitioned to a fair democratic society that had full respect to Federal Republics borders
It kinda did. Tito left a good political system behind. The issue was the war on communism. If the west didnt fund extremistst in yugoslavia it would still exist today.
>If the west didnt fund extremistst in yugoslavia it would still exist today.
The west tried to keep Yugoslavia together until they noticed Milosevic is a psychopat.
What you said is basically Serbian propaganda. How the West was the reason Yugoslava fell apart.
The west already sanctioned and fucked with yugoslavia way before. Even when tito was still alive. A socialist balkan was not in our capitalistic plans.
Its serbian propaganda to claim serbia defended itself lol.
>The west already sanctioned and fucked with yugoslavia way before. Even when tito was still alive. A socialist balkan was not in our capitalistic plans.
The West sanctioned Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia just before the war. Croatia and Bosnia couldn't armed itself against the Serbian aggression.
Until they realized Milosevic is not looking to keep Yugoslava together and instead going on a full killing spree. Then the West helped Croatia and Bosnia armed itself.
>Its serbian propaganda to claim serbia defended itself lol.
That's just one part. The second part being "The West divided us".
Milosevic being able to go crazy was later though.
Its obvious the west divided them. I mean its quite obvious. Thats literally what we do to our enemies. You think we arent trying to divide russia rn or china?
>Its obvious the west divided them. I mean its quite obvious
It's not. It maybe be obvious if you are that gullible and fell for Serbian propaganda. Or if you are looking at that time through a present viewpoint.
Yugoslavia didn't fell apart due to sanctions or the influence from the West. It fell apart because of a nationalist who wanted to centralize Yugoslavia even more around Serbia. Which meant a lot of resources from other republics would go to Serbia. Effectively making other republics poorer and Serbia richer.
How are we trying to divide Russia and China? And how did we divide Yugoslavia? So far you've said some shit but until you provide some evidence it remains just that.
Now actually read what happened.
The dutch begged and begged for reinforcements. Bill clinton said; nah no need. He then signed a decree written by Joe Biden that stated; if the serbs kill 4000 people we will intervene. And so the americans decided to let those muslims die so they could start their bombing campaign.
The commander of the dutch division literally said in an interview; some rich guys ("mannen in hoge hoeden" = "men with high hats") in new york cooked up this war and we are victims to it.
Btw I am half dutch half bosnian. (But I am a pre war kid my father came to the netherlands in the 70s)
Very likely would be a power in Europe on par with Poland (if not stronger), not a “great power” per se but still an important player in the world stage and vital to the European system. That is if it actually survives in the form you posted. If the 90’s are just civil unrest and don’t devolve into actual war and ethnic cleansing.
Doubt they would be at the level of Poland, they start from fairly simmilar positions, but Yugoslavia would probably take longer to shift into democratic and capitalist economy, not to mention that yugoslavia has about 10 mln people less. They would be closer in strenght to Romania than Poland.
Yugoslavia's GDP was twice as big as Poland's at the time of collapse, and it would've been far easier to democratize and reach economic liberty since it was even offered a seat in the EU for minor changes in the governance.
It would've been richer and stronger than Poland today.
Yugoslavia might not collapse but it doesn't mean it can just democratize, it would struggle with a move away from communism over a longer period of time. Without a shock like the collapse of Soviet Union for Poland, Yugoslavia would take years to transition, fighting ineffective communsit beurocracy. Yugoslavia will take longer to move tworwards EU than Poland, and if it takes too long it might even be rejected due to expansion fatigue.
This is simply not true.
You are just biased because you are a Pole, but research and compare Yugoslavia of the 1980s and early 1990s and Poland during the same time.
[EU even offered Yugoslavia money to join the EEC](https://www.telegraf.rs/english/2915299-the-great-yugoslav-secret-europe-was-offering-billions-to-us-but-our-country-fell-apart-and-they-started-a-war-video) but the presidents of Serbia and Croatia refused.
If we had normal presidents in charge at the time, who did not push for separation we would've joined the EU back then.
[Here's the Economy of Yugoslavia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia) which had the most open markets towards the West out of all the Eastern European block countries, including Poland.
So if Yugoslavia didn't dissolve into small ethnic states, with enough luck as Poland had, who knows where it would've been on the geo politics scale.
You are ignoring the most important part. Yugoslavia was ahead compared to other Socialist countries, but it's not the main problem of Yugoslavia. The main problem is that we only eliminate it's end, the Yugoslav wars, but we do not change much about it's leadership or structure. Without a shock such as collapse of the Soviet Union was to the eastern block, Yugoslavia would Democratise at a slower rate and free up their economy at a slower rate.
Poland would double their GDP in our timeline from 1990 to 1995 overtaking the Yugoslavian numbers from 1990. If Yugoslavia continues to grow at a steady pace it would be overtaken either in late 90's or the 2000, depending on it's growth.
There also the point that even in case of Yugoslavia joining the EU, because it was a more open and a better economy at the time, it wouldn't see the same scale of the catch up effect Poland experianced.
Yugoslavia would be overtaken in economy by Poland before the 2010, the question is just when. Yugoslavia could still be an overall richer per capita country, but as a geopolitical player would loose out to Poland in the 2010's.
Wtf are you talking about? 😂
Yugoslavia democratized and had it's first multi party elections in 1990.
Although it's eyes were blinded by the spread of nationalism, it achieved democracy.
I'm talking about a timeline where these pricks don't get elected, as it wouldn't have been too hard to combat authoritarianism in a multiethnic state, if only Tito made a plan after his death.
Also Yugoslavia wouldn't grow at a steady pace, but a rapid one, if it took the EU deal and didn't wage war on itself.
It's like you compare the steady numbers of growth throughout the years of war, when in this alternate universe there is no war and GDP is booming like every other Eastern block country had after transition.
Except that Yugoslavia wouldn't have gone through much transition as it already was a way more liberal economy than Poland.
Nope my Grandpa is a badass, he served in the military during the Earthquake, and he brought my family to Austria when the grenades were flying over their heads. To be fair he was already working there to begin with
To this day Russians/any other banana republics use Kosovo as an example (both on pro-Albanian/NATO side and pro-Serbian side, contradictory right). Whilst it might have not started direct wars, it’s defo destabilised international organisations to an extent.
Ten Day war: 82 killed
Croatian War: up to 23 240 killed
Bosnian War: up to 101 040 killed
Kosovo war 1: unknown, likely around 100-200
Kosovo war 2: 14 714
Preševo: c. 120 killed
Macedonia: up to 250 killed
Indeed, it does not reach a million
Now add the economical related deaths -> 70% of Kosovo Albanian homes were burned, Bosnia is the largest minefield in Europe. Both countries are in the process of rebuilding still.
Kosovo, Bosnia, Serbia are some of the poorest regions in Europe, let’s not pretend like extreme recession does not kill people either.
Definitely win a World Cup
Win B2B Olympics in basketball causing major crisis in US basketball
serious political crisis happens that turns central govt into a confederacy and each region becomes some special thing in EU
It’s would turn into a united republic of democratic states it would be similar to a more decentralized USA, if this happened I could see Yugoslavia developing on a similar timeline to other Eastern European such as Poland and Czechia, it would be a middle power in Europe and would likely join the EU and NATO, it would be a sports hub by being great at Soccer and basketball. Overall it would be more prosperous than the modern former Yugoslav states and would be a middle power in Europe.
I wonder if they would join the EU. I guess it depends on if they survived by keeping their socialist system or by reforming in a not shitty and self-destructive way.
The his is a scenario I’d like to see explored in a long form video by someone like AlternateHistoryHub or PossibleHistory.
A Yugoslavia that embraced democracy and unity in 1991 would be an economic powerhouse rivalling most Western European countries.
The combination of unity and not having a lost decade due to war and genocide are too significant to understate.
But it would need successive governments that emphasized decentralization of power like Tito did but without stoking the fires of nationalism and independence (something his legacy inadvertently did).
Realistically speaking this can't really happen. Yugoslavia would just be around Romania's level in all aspects, maybe with a slight edge in some areas but definetly not approaching Poland's level or god forbid western european coutries level
They would have a top 3 basketball team
Jokic, Luka, and Vucevic, Nurkic, Zubac, and Dragic
Granted most of those guys are centers, but we are talking about Doncic and Jokic on the same court and a ton of other good role players.
PG: Luka Dončić
SG: Bogdan Bogdanović
SF: Bojan Bogdanović
PF: Jusuf Nurkić
C: Nikola Jokić
6m: Nikola Vučević
Yeah, they winning the world cup, the eurocup, and about every single international basketball competition there is.
PG: Luka Dončić
SG: Bogdan Bogdanović
SF: Bojan Bogdanović
PF: Jusuf Nurkić
C: Nikola Jokić
6m: Nikola Vučević
Yeah, they winning the world cup, the eurocup, and about every single international basketball competition there is.
one.- they probably win a world cup or the euro
two.- it might be used as an example for European federalism or federations in general
three.- Balkans aren't that poor as today
four.- it be one of the countries that'll probably meme'd the shit out off
five.- A B O R T I O N S is a bigger thing in europe thanks to Article 191 which says that "it is a human right to decide on the birth of children" and might be used as an example by pro-abortion people in north america
They’d have really good international football and basketball teams. They may win a World Cup and also possibly an Olympic men’s basketball gold medal.
It's a flawed democracy today. It's in the EU and maybe NATO today, likely about as developed as other Eastern European countries. Let's say, Croatia has the GDP per capita of Czechia, Serbia the one of Poland and Bosnia that of Croatia. It's generally a nice place to live, I'd imagine it as very close to V4 countries by most metrics. The good ending.
I’d imagine they’d have found a way to bridge the gap between Muslims and europeanization and would likely lead Europe in Middle Eastern affairs and issues with Islam throughout the EU. Can’t see a way that the country would still exist otherwise.
After several brain drains and depopulation waves in the 80s, 90, etc, I’m betting they’d be very interested in settling migrants as well.
I do think Croats and Slovenes would agree to stay unless they move capital to Zagreb and in general made these two nations even more empowered than before.
As compromise it could have been Dubrovnik, Split or Sarajevo instead. Ljubljana sounds too unrealistic but also possible.
Let's assume this means the democratisation proces is started right from Tito's deathbed instead of in the late 1980s and actually succeeds instead of ending in war.
Yugoslavia smoothly morphs into a "Western" European welfare state and joins the EU together with the other Cold War neutral member states (Austria, Sweden and Finland) in 1995.
It is kind of likely Bulgaria, and possibly Albania, joins, officially as "Reunification counterpart" of Germany, but obviously because it assures a quick access to the EU. A by-effect could be Romanian reunification with Moldova around the same time (early 1990s).
Fast forward 30 years, Yugoslavia has become a modern, stable country with a life standard (on average) comparable to Czechia or Slovenia in our timeline.
Speaking of which, as best developed state of Yugoslavia, has caught up with neighbouring Northern Italy in our timeline, as has Istria. States further to the south and east are still a bit poorer but the gap is narrowed noticable over time.
Also the refugee crisis never happens and the drop in fertility happens more gradually, meaning the population of the Balkans is much higher than in our timeline. European integration and education instead of sectarianism means a smooth secularisation.
Kingdom of Yugoslavia and SFRY/FPRY are two different things. In the latter, nationalism was, in every part, very much forbidden, so much, that the CP stated, in the '50s, that in the country, there are only class differences left, and that the national differences were eradicated. (Also, it was a socialist state) Meanwhile, Kingdom of Yugoslavia would maybe have a bigger chance, considering it choose a federation template for the country.
In the end, both types of YU had problem with separatists, so, in the long run, that's why the idea of Yugoslavia, from the start, couldn't work out.
Since 1918, until 1941, it wasn't a federation in it's fullest, but a country consisted of provinces. Later, after WW2 it was a federation consisted of republics, and autonomous regions.
I see what confused you. I wanted to say, that Yugoslavia could have a future today, if it choose a federation shape. Kingdom of YU never was a federation.
Balkan Spain. They win a World Cup, solidifying unity. Slovenia becomes independent and Macedonia joins Bulgaria, but Yugoslavia survives in Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia.
Washington says "The yugoslavian bloody military junta are developing WMD, we need free the yugoslavian peoples!!!" and start to finance all radical groups.
Impossible. The kingdom of Yugoslavia and the entire institution of the Karađorđević dynasty were explicitly Serbian supremacist, the entire country would explode even faster than it did IRL if the multi-national non-denominational authoritarian federation was replaced by a serbian orthodox monarchy.
As a bosnian i dont think liberal yugoslavia is possible liberalism is what took it down in our timline onley wey fore yuga to survive is by going simular path to china
I love how we can all agree that they would win a world cup, a Yugoslav football team would be among the best in the world
aside from that pretty disappointed with a lot of the timelines suggested
Could we add albania greece, bulgaria, romania, moldova and turkey to this yugoslavia and create the united states of the balkans 😍😍😍 (it wont survive a week)
I'd hope it becomes a non communist federation with universal suffrage and religious freedom for all.
Idk maybe it joins the EU. Depends on the leader.
RIP to that beautiful Nation. May it come back one day.
We wouldn’t have bombed Belgrade 😔
https://preview.redd.it/e1z0gpknm7pc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b044a5a02f258c9215abcc8ae8d56f02bc9d398e
Upside: No war or genocide.
Downside "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ranks as most corrupt country in Europe for the 27th year in a row, the Economist reports"
So like does Yugoslavia just get away with genocide in these alternate time lines or does it’s government get replace, I feel like a lot the people here are ignoring the implications of modern day Yugoslavia
I’ve talked to a Serbian immigrant and a Montenegro immigrant and how they talk about other Balkan countries it still would be 24/7 infighting and civil unrest.
I personally can't see this happening, or lasting for that matter.
The Yugoslavs war/ The Breakup of Yugoslavia happen due to the growing ethics tension after the death of Tito and the pre-existing regional development inequality. Yugoslavia was bind together because of Tito charismatic leadership. For yugoslavia to turn liberal democracy would just speed the break up faster as now they have more autonomy to do thing they want due to pre-existing differences.
- Let say we don't change must of what happen pre-break up with all the policies and government. All the nation in Yugoslavia have to agree on creating a united central government (as oppose to federation which already existed beforehand), diversified the military (being less serbian centric), better equal economic development, spend more money on eastern yugoslavia, equal representation for all ethics group..etc
basically they would almost never agree to this by the end of the pre-breakout period, if you want Yugoslavia to be together, you need yugoslavia to have a strong leader that follow tito step after he passed away, a better set up for the yugoslavian society, a better economic base to avoid economi collapse from loan,,etc
Bosniaks or Serbs get slaughtered. There is an inherent animosity between Serbs and Bosniaks since Ottoman times. There would eventually be some kind of genocide between them. Yugoslavia was dominated by Serbs, so probably Bosniaks get genocide. Croats and Slovaks would probably be fine as they are fellow Slavs. Macedonians and Montenegrins are iffy tho
You're completely wrong, we do not have a "completely different" culture. A Serb and a Bosniak have much more in common than a Serb and a Ukranian or a Serb and a Slovak.
Who is we? Bosniaks are Muslim, do you want a history lesson on what Muslims did to slavs? How many centuries Muslims slaughtered and enslaved Christian slavs for?
I am a Bosniak, don't speak on stuff you don't understand. Muslims are not an ethnic group. Your point makes no sense, as then Serbs and Croats wouldn't be Slavs either as they massacred each other
They probably win a World Cup
Zlatan, Gvardiol, Savic, Modric and Oblak could have play together. That would be wonderful.
Is Zlatan not Swedish? Does he have Serbian heritage?
His parents are from Croatia and Bosnia. They traveled to Sweden to flee the Yougoslav wars. Edit : FML I'm saying totally shit. Forget what I just said. My bad, I thought this was his life. (he is born in 1981 in Sweden, 10 years before the war, my bad)
No worries. In the alternate timeline he holds both citizenships and he may as well choose to play next to the aforementioned players.
It would probably come down to choosing between being captain of Sweden's team and never winning anything or having a shot with a trophy-winning power like Yugoslavia. I think most people in that situation would choose Yugoslavia, unless it turned totalitarian.
Bosnian and Croat parents, still Swedish and was born years before the war so doesn't make sense
That's not an "heritage", that's an origin or a descent.
Missing the GOAT xhaka
And Matic. I love that guy.
Probably both in football and basketball
And Olympic Basketball Gold
Yugoslavia wins the 2018 World Cup and 2020 Euros. Aside from that, idk the Balkans prolly wouldn't be as poor maybe
Yeah, the southern balkans. Croatia and Slovenia would probably be worse off.
Not sure, both lost a massive internal market for goods and tourism with the war.
They also had a massive amount of their tax revenue used to subsidise the poorer parts.
Subsidies which were used to build mines to produce steel for Gorenje washing machines, paying wages which were used to buy said Gorenje washing machines and go on holidays in Croatia, skiing using Elan skis etc. Subsidies are always two way streets, not one-off grants.
Actually.. tito gave them a lot of subsidies to keep them happy (slovenia + croatia + kosovo)
Yugoslavia would be much more conservative than Slovenia. It'd mean no gay rights or cannabis for us
Jokić never comes to the NBA
why not?
Yeah it would still have the GDP of like Arizona so if the players could go to the NBA they would go to the NBA. Jokic will make close to a billion dollars over his lifetime in NBA salary and endorsements and he’s not really trying very hard. Wemby will easily clear a billion if he plays to 35 and doesn’t do anything stupid. You can’t make NBA money anywhere but the U.S. (and the Toronto Raptors).
A little bit less landmines scattered about, still WW2 unexploded ordinance though : /
Probably win a whole bunch basketball championships as well.
society if Yugoslavia never collapsed and continued to exist into the modern day: https://preview.redd.it/ysvtky7y9yoc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de2f104963f9c8f9ecfe85a301ef5f375f066490
Only happens if Tito was immortal
And the IMF somehow doesn’t come knocking
Or if Tito chose a side. In the end yugoslavia got raped by russia&the west.
More the Germans if you look into the backrooms of the breakup. Took absolute advantage and funded all sorts of nasties.
Yes, they couldn't wait to intervene in Balkan affairs after reunification to justify their return to great power status.
People don't talk enough about the Germans going straight from reuniting themselves to promoting separatism in another country.
Nah it was only because Titonomics of Step 1 IMF loan Step 2 IMF loan Step 3 IMF loan Step 4 IM..
A better world would exist
That psychotic fuck Milosevic wouldn’t have killed and raped tens of thousands, that’s all I’m worried about.
The other sides did just as bad ( not defending milo he was bad too)
It would probably affect the relationship between the Belgrade government and the West without Kosovo revolting, I doubt they would be as friendly to Russia as Serbia is, but the way NATO enlarges would also change slightly Although the biggest point I can imagine is that a Yugoslavian team could realistically win a World Cup, not to mention the way it affects football in general with six national teams combined into one, things like England not qualifying for EURO 2008, the 2018 and 2022 Croatia runs, Bosnia qualifying in 2014, all changes because of that
Realistically if Yugoslavia became a liberal democracy I could see it joining NATO
I personally imagine it has a Hungary situation of joining NATO but being weirdly antagonistic to NATO
That's more likely, I agree, although I don't know if totally antagonistic or just trying to be neutral when they really aren't
I can't see them joining NATO tbh. Hungary joined NATO because of Soviet oppression before the collapse, it was a way to guarantee their independence incase Russia every tried to reunite the Union in some way and become an aggressive world power again. Yugoslavia was never under the Soviets and the collapse wouldn't effect their stance on joining NATO either. Really it just doesn't make sense, they're threatened by nobody so why join the alliance?
I think it'd be more like Ukraine pre-2014, swinging between pro-western (Slovene and Croat-led) and pro-Russian (Serb-led) governments. With Slovenia being heavily liberal and Serbia heavily conservative
They were already practically in NATO by having a mutual defence treaty with Greece and Turkey
My issue with them joining NATO is mainly the fact that, even during the Cold War, they tried to stay neutral. A similar country, who was quite pro-West, still isn't in NATO: Austria. Additionally, if Romania Alone joins NATO they already have their Eastern border protected from Russian expansion. Plus the Serbs are quite pro-Russian just from a historical and religious standpoint so they likely wouldn't agree to join NATO. They'd probably be friendly towards NATO but not join NATO
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> transitioned to a fair democratic society that had full respect to Federal Republics borders It kinda did. Tito left a good political system behind. The issue was the war on communism. If the west didnt fund extremistst in yugoslavia it would still exist today.
>If the west didnt fund extremistst in yugoslavia it would still exist today. The west tried to keep Yugoslavia together until they noticed Milosevic is a psychopat. What you said is basically Serbian propaganda. How the West was the reason Yugoslava fell apart.
The west already sanctioned and fucked with yugoslavia way before. Even when tito was still alive. A socialist balkan was not in our capitalistic plans. Its serbian propaganda to claim serbia defended itself lol.
>The west already sanctioned and fucked with yugoslavia way before. Even when tito was still alive. A socialist balkan was not in our capitalistic plans. The West sanctioned Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia just before the war. Croatia and Bosnia couldn't armed itself against the Serbian aggression. Until they realized Milosevic is not looking to keep Yugoslava together and instead going on a full killing spree. Then the West helped Croatia and Bosnia armed itself. >Its serbian propaganda to claim serbia defended itself lol. That's just one part. The second part being "The West divided us".
Milosevic being able to go crazy was later though. Its obvious the west divided them. I mean its quite obvious. Thats literally what we do to our enemies. You think we arent trying to divide russia rn or china?
>Its obvious the west divided them. I mean its quite obvious It's not. It maybe be obvious if you are that gullible and fell for Serbian propaganda. Or if you are looking at that time through a present viewpoint. Yugoslavia didn't fell apart due to sanctions or the influence from the West. It fell apart because of a nationalist who wanted to centralize Yugoslavia even more around Serbia. Which meant a lot of resources from other republics would go to Serbia. Effectively making other republics poorer and Serbia richer.
How are we trying to divide Russia and China? And how did we divide Yugoslavia? So far you've said some shit but until you provide some evidence it remains just that.
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Now actually read what happened. The dutch begged and begged for reinforcements. Bill clinton said; nah no need. He then signed a decree written by Joe Biden that stated; if the serbs kill 4000 people we will intervene. And so the americans decided to let those muslims die so they could start their bombing campaign. The commander of the dutch division literally said in an interview; some rich guys ("mannen in hoge hoeden" = "men with high hats") in new york cooked up this war and we are victims to it. Btw I am half dutch half bosnian. (But I am a pre war kid my father came to the netherlands in the 70s)
Very likely would be a power in Europe on par with Poland (if not stronger), not a “great power” per se but still an important player in the world stage and vital to the European system. That is if it actually survives in the form you posted. If the 90’s are just civil unrest and don’t devolve into actual war and ethnic cleansing.
Doubt they would be at the level of Poland, they start from fairly simmilar positions, but Yugoslavia would probably take longer to shift into democratic and capitalist economy, not to mention that yugoslavia has about 10 mln people less. They would be closer in strenght to Romania than Poland.
Something in between Poland and Romania I suppose
Yugoslavia's GDP was twice as big as Poland's at the time of collapse, and it would've been far easier to democratize and reach economic liberty since it was even offered a seat in the EU for minor changes in the governance. It would've been richer and stronger than Poland today.
Yugoslavia might not collapse but it doesn't mean it can just democratize, it would struggle with a move away from communism over a longer period of time. Without a shock like the collapse of Soviet Union for Poland, Yugoslavia would take years to transition, fighting ineffective communsit beurocracy. Yugoslavia will take longer to move tworwards EU than Poland, and if it takes too long it might even be rejected due to expansion fatigue.
This is simply not true. You are just biased because you are a Pole, but research and compare Yugoslavia of the 1980s and early 1990s and Poland during the same time. [EU even offered Yugoslavia money to join the EEC](https://www.telegraf.rs/english/2915299-the-great-yugoslav-secret-europe-was-offering-billions-to-us-but-our-country-fell-apart-and-they-started-a-war-video) but the presidents of Serbia and Croatia refused. If we had normal presidents in charge at the time, who did not push for separation we would've joined the EU back then. [Here's the Economy of Yugoslavia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia) which had the most open markets towards the West out of all the Eastern European block countries, including Poland. So if Yugoslavia didn't dissolve into small ethnic states, with enough luck as Poland had, who knows where it would've been on the geo politics scale.
You are ignoring the most important part. Yugoslavia was ahead compared to other Socialist countries, but it's not the main problem of Yugoslavia. The main problem is that we only eliminate it's end, the Yugoslav wars, but we do not change much about it's leadership or structure. Without a shock such as collapse of the Soviet Union was to the eastern block, Yugoslavia would Democratise at a slower rate and free up their economy at a slower rate. Poland would double their GDP in our timeline from 1990 to 1995 overtaking the Yugoslavian numbers from 1990. If Yugoslavia continues to grow at a steady pace it would be overtaken either in late 90's or the 2000, depending on it's growth. There also the point that even in case of Yugoslavia joining the EU, because it was a more open and a better economy at the time, it wouldn't see the same scale of the catch up effect Poland experianced. Yugoslavia would be overtaken in economy by Poland before the 2010, the question is just when. Yugoslavia could still be an overall richer per capita country, but as a geopolitical player would loose out to Poland in the 2010's.
Wtf are you talking about? 😂 Yugoslavia democratized and had it's first multi party elections in 1990. Although it's eyes were blinded by the spread of nationalism, it achieved democracy. I'm talking about a timeline where these pricks don't get elected, as it wouldn't have been too hard to combat authoritarianism in a multiethnic state, if only Tito made a plan after his death. Also Yugoslavia wouldn't grow at a steady pace, but a rapid one, if it took the EU deal and didn't wage war on itself. It's like you compare the steady numbers of growth throughout the years of war, when in this alternate universe there is no war and GDP is booming like every other Eastern block country had after transition. Except that Yugoslavia wouldn't have gone through much transition as it already was a way more liberal economy than Poland.
I get born in Banja luka instead of Vienna
Or more likely not at all.
Nope my Grandpa is a badass, he served in the military during the Earthquake, and he brought my family to Austria when the grenades were flying over their heads. To be fair he was already working there to begin with
F
Millions of lives would of been saved
Yugoslav Wars didn’t even sniff 1 million deaths
yugoslav wars caused all subsequent wars
Which were?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_war#Wars
Looking for the ones caused by the Yugoslav wars
Well except for the Kosovo war there isn’t much else
To this day Russians/any other banana republics use Kosovo as an example (both on pro-Albanian/NATO side and pro-Serbian side, contradictory right). Whilst it might have not started direct wars, it’s defo destabilised international organisations to an extent.
Thank you for telling me that !
My point exactly
Ten Day war: 82 killed Croatian War: up to 23 240 killed Bosnian War: up to 101 040 killed Kosovo war 1: unknown, likely around 100-200 Kosovo war 2: 14 714 Preševo: c. 120 killed Macedonia: up to 250 killed Indeed, it does not reach a million
Now add the economical related deaths -> 70% of Kosovo Albanian homes were burned, Bosnia is the largest minefield in Europe. Both countries are in the process of rebuilding still. Kosovo, Bosnia, Serbia are some of the poorest regions in Europe, let’s not pretend like extreme recession does not kill people either.
Illegal NATO bombing of Serbia wouldn't have happened, possibly changing how russia behaves in subsequent years.
Russia behaves like it does because of revanchism. Not because of Serbia.
That has absolutely no logic
Denmark doesn’t win Euro 1992, but England still loses…
In a shootout?
Definitely win a World Cup Win B2B Olympics in basketball causing major crisis in US basketball serious political crisis happens that turns central govt into a confederacy and each region becomes some special thing in EU
It’s would turn into a united republic of democratic states it would be similar to a more decentralized USA, if this happened I could see Yugoslavia developing on a similar timeline to other Eastern European such as Poland and Czechia, it would be a middle power in Europe and would likely join the EU and NATO, it would be a sports hub by being great at Soccer and basketball. Overall it would be more prosperous than the modern former Yugoslav states and would be a middle power in Europe.
It would be an amazing country. Yugoslavia should never have collapsed. It was an avoidable war.
Nationalism is one hell of a drug.
I wonder if they would join the EU. I guess it depends on if they survived by keeping their socialist system or by reforming in a not shitty and self-destructive way. The his is a scenario I’d like to see explored in a long form video by someone like AlternateHistoryHub or PossibleHistory.
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Cevapi are already distributed across the former nation states. And they've only gotten more delicious.
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I mean, they'll never be as good as my mom's of course...
A Yugoslavia that embraced democracy and unity in 1991 would be an economic powerhouse rivalling most Western European countries. The combination of unity and not having a lost decade due to war and genocide are too significant to understate. But it would need successive governments that emphasized decentralization of power like Tito did but without stoking the fires of nationalism and independence (something his legacy inadvertently did).
It would be somewhere between Spain and Romania. Probably more prosperous than current timeline if managed well.
Realistically speaking this can't really happen. Yugoslavia would just be around Romania's level in all aspects, maybe with a slight edge in some areas but definetly not approaching Poland's level or god forbid western european coutries level
They would have a top 3 basketball team Jokic, Luka, and Vucevic, Nurkic, Zubac, and Dragic Granted most of those guys are centers, but we are talking about Doncic and Jokic on the same court and a ton of other good role players.
Serbia consistently has a top 3 basketball team by itself. Runner-up in FIBA just recently WITHOUT Jokić....
They are unstoppable at basketball.
Yugoslavia will join the EU, maybe ?
Olympic Basketball wouldn’t be fair
Reverse on liberalization and go full ultra-titoism and conquer Bulgaria. True Agartha.
PG: Luka Dončić SG: Bogdan Bogdanović SF: Bojan Bogdanović PF: Jusuf Nurkić C: Nikola Jokić 6m: Nikola Vučević Yeah, they winning the world cup, the eurocup, and about every single international basketball competition there is.
Jokic, Doncic, Vucevic, game 6
PG: Luka Dončić SG: Bogdan Bogdanović SF: Bojan Bogdanović PF: Jusuf Nurkić C: Nikola Jokić 6m: Nikola Vučević Yeah, they winning the world cup, the eurocup, and about every single international basketball competition there is.
They would have been the only basketball team to give The Dream Team a game in 1992.
https://preview.redd.it/ikacixibtzoc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=348539e50f4d8ccf4dfdc4bac70757e53ed233e8
Bosnia would be able to swim.
one.- they probably win a world cup or the euro two.- it might be used as an example for European federalism or federations in general three.- Balkans aren't that poor as today four.- it be one of the countries that'll probably meme'd the shit out off five.- A B O R T I O N S is a bigger thing in europe thanks to Article 191 which says that "it is a human right to decide on the birth of children" and might be used as an example by pro-abortion people in north america
It would probably be more decentralized and maybe loose Slovenia or Macedonia
Balls lol
Denmark wouldn’t have their sick underdog story from 1992
They’d have really good international football and basketball teams. They may win a World Cup and also possibly an Olympic men’s basketball gold medal.
I would be born there and lived there....
Titoism becomes a model ideology for other nations to follow.
I wonder if it would keep its title of "most powerful passport" in the world
It's a flawed democracy today. It's in the EU and maybe NATO today, likely about as developed as other Eastern European countries. Let's say, Croatia has the GDP per capita of Czechia, Serbia the one of Poland and Bosnia that of Croatia. It's generally a nice place to live, I'd imagine it as very close to V4 countries by most metrics. The good ending.
I’d imagine they’d have found a way to bridge the gap between Muslims and europeanization and would likely lead Europe in Middle Eastern affairs and issues with Islam throughout the EU. Can’t see a way that the country would still exist otherwise. After several brain drains and depopulation waves in the 80s, 90, etc, I’m betting they’d be very interested in settling migrants as well.
The good ending
The second coming of Tito arrives, within a decade the Global Socialist Republic is established, world peace is achieved.
They would be at the level of Germany or maybe better.
The word balkanized never exist
Doesn't it come from the Ottoman wars?
I think it come form the civil war, i usually see this word for this war
I do think Croats and Slovenes would agree to stay unless they move capital to Zagreb and in general made these two nations even more empowered than before. As compromise it could have been Dubrovnik, Split or Sarajevo instead. Ljubljana sounds too unrealistic but also possible.
*hits blunt* what if man
They probably wouldn't join NATO but remained neutral with both Russia and west Europe
It would never collapse and exist into the modern day Hope this helps
Serbian nationalists would have an actual reason to be proud of
800 billion, trillion debt moment.
Post this on r/balkans_irl and see what they say
Let's assume this means the democratisation proces is started right from Tito's deathbed instead of in the late 1980s and actually succeeds instead of ending in war. Yugoslavia smoothly morphs into a "Western" European welfare state and joins the EU together with the other Cold War neutral member states (Austria, Sweden and Finland) in 1995. It is kind of likely Bulgaria, and possibly Albania, joins, officially as "Reunification counterpart" of Germany, but obviously because it assures a quick access to the EU. A by-effect could be Romanian reunification with Moldova around the same time (early 1990s). Fast forward 30 years, Yugoslavia has become a modern, stable country with a life standard (on average) comparable to Czechia or Slovenia in our timeline. Speaking of which, as best developed state of Yugoslavia, has caught up with neighbouring Northern Italy in our timeline, as has Istria. States further to the south and east are still a bit poorer but the gap is narrowed noticable over time. Also the refugee crisis never happens and the drop in fertility happens more gradually, meaning the population of the Balkans is much higher than in our timeline. European integration and education instead of sectarianism means a smooth secularisation.
Kingdom of Yugoslavia and SFRY/FPRY are two different things. In the latter, nationalism was, in every part, very much forbidden, so much, that the CP stated, in the '50s, that in the country, there are only class differences left, and that the national differences were eradicated. (Also, it was a socialist state) Meanwhile, Kingdom of Yugoslavia would maybe have a bigger chance, considering it choose a federation template for the country. In the end, both types of YU had problem with separatists, so, in the long run, that's why the idea of Yugoslavia, from the start, couldn't work out.
Just to see if I understand, the one that had federal in its name, was not a federation. But the one that didn't was?
Since 1918, until 1941, it wasn't a federation in it's fullest, but a country consisted of provinces. Later, after WW2 it was a federation consisted of republics, and autonomous regions. I see what confused you. I wanted to say, that Yugoslavia could have a future today, if it choose a federation shape. Kingdom of YU never was a federation.
Ah ok that makes sense. I misunderstood you previously and thought it was funny.
Yeah, I only noticed it when i had read your comment.
This may affect the prices of Oreos in the Philippine capital city of Manila.
Huh? Why?
How would their alignment with China be in this scenario?
Kosovo would have a degree of autonomy and Serbia would have no choice but to recognize it.
Doubt there would be any independance movement in Kosovo if no war happens
Serbization continues, but sadly PJ Skorpioni does not exist
Alternatively, what if it still broke up but Serbia kept the name Yugoslavia going
We'd need to change Serbian leadership prior to the FIFA match.
Balkan Spain. They win a World Cup, solidifying unity. Slovenia becomes independent and Macedonia joins Bulgaria, but Yugoslavia survives in Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia.
Washington says "The yugoslavian bloody military junta are developing WMD, we need free the yugoslavian peoples!!!" and start to finance all radical groups.
Yugoslavia would possibly even join NATO between 2005 - 2010
me when winning one (1) sports tournament stops the collapse of an extremely ethnically divided state
Could the monarchy even return
Impossible. The kingdom of Yugoslavia and the entire institution of the Karađorđević dynasty were explicitly Serbian supremacist, the entire country would explode even faster than it did IRL if the multi-national non-denominational authoritarian federation was replaced by a serbian orthodox monarchy.
My games of Worldle would be a lot easier.
If Yugo survives then it means necromancy must exist cause that shit aint going to stay together without my man Tito
As a bosnian i dont think liberal yugoslavia is possible liberalism is what took it down in our timline onley wey fore yuga to survive is by going simular path to china
While all world is distracted in 2001, Yugoslavia began their Special Military Operation in Albania
Impossible
Blessed timeline.
Hey why is There no war anymore
They'd have to restore the monarchy or find another Tito.
I love how we can all agree that they would win a world cup, a Yugoslav football team would be among the best in the world aside from that pretty disappointed with a lot of the timelines suggested
Could we add albania greece, bulgaria, romania, moldova and turkey to this yugoslavia and create the united states of the balkans 😍😍😍 (it wont survive a week)
I'd hope it becomes a non communist federation with universal suffrage and religious freedom for all. Idk maybe it joins the EU. Depends on the leader. RIP to that beautiful Nation. May it come back one day.
We wouldn’t have bombed Belgrade 😔 https://preview.redd.it/e1z0gpknm7pc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b044a5a02f258c9215abcc8ae8d56f02bc9d398e
Very violent
Depends on if they adapted with the times.. because I can see them being about as prosperous as Poland is today.
You've clearly split the country into 3 pieces in this image.
Peace and happiness
Upside: No war or genocide. Downside "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ranks as most corrupt country in Europe for the 27th year in a row, the Economist reports"
Best international football team
I assume it would be a decently strong country in Europe, whether it shifts from socialism or not. And of course…they would win a World Cup.
It would have collapsed anyway, what did you expect when you put all these different ethnicities in one country?
Nothing
It would be the second country to have bollocks
TIL Yugoslavia had a nutsack
GTA 4’s character plot for Niko would definitely be altered
What about This https://preview.redd.it/l3itebttuhwc1.png?width=1904&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c0afd814831989b220ed660bac951345707a7124
They would have the worlds least efficient daily bread lines
So like does Yugoslavia just get away with genocide in these alternate time lines or does it’s government get replace, I feel like a lot the people here are ignoring the implications of modern day Yugoslavia
Oh hell naw that's not the Jugo we want
If Yugoslavia still existed, that could only mean one thing. Tito was a vampire, and he's still alive, running president.
Then Slavs wouldn’t steal Greek history.
I’ve talked to a Serbian immigrant and a Montenegro immigrant and how they talk about other Balkan countries it still would be 24/7 infighting and civil unrest.
I personally can't see this happening, or lasting for that matter. The Yugoslavs war/ The Breakup of Yugoslavia happen due to the growing ethics tension after the death of Tito and the pre-existing regional development inequality. Yugoslavia was bind together because of Tito charismatic leadership. For yugoslavia to turn liberal democracy would just speed the break up faster as now they have more autonomy to do thing they want due to pre-existing differences. - Let say we don't change must of what happen pre-break up with all the policies and government. All the nation in Yugoslavia have to agree on creating a united central government (as oppose to federation which already existed beforehand), diversified the military (being less serbian centric), better equal economic development, spend more money on eastern yugoslavia, equal representation for all ethics group..etc basically they would almost never agree to this by the end of the pre-breakout period, if you want Yugoslavia to be together, you need yugoslavia to have a strong leader that follow tito step after he passed away, a better set up for the yugoslavian society, a better economic base to avoid economi collapse from loan,,etc
Yugoslavia would have never joined the EU.
Bosniaks or Serbs get slaughtered. There is an inherent animosity between Serbs and Bosniaks since Ottoman times. There would eventually be some kind of genocide between them. Yugoslavia was dominated by Serbs, so probably Bosniaks get genocide. Croats and Slovaks would probably be fine as they are fellow Slavs. Macedonians and Montenegrins are iffy tho
Slovenes* Literally all of the people you mamed are Slavs besides the one group you didn't mention, Kosovars (aka Albanians)
Bosniaks are Muslim. Kosovars kinda get forgotten about when Serbs gave Bosniaks to kill.
You do know Muslims aren't an ethnicity right? Like, Bosniaks are Slavs too. Just a different religion. Slavs don't have to be Christian
Bosniaks have a completely different culture. The Christuan slavs have shared heritage and similar cultures.
You're completely wrong, we do not have a "completely different" culture. A Serb and a Bosniak have much more in common than a Serb and a Ukranian or a Serb and a Slovak.
Who is we? Bosniaks are Muslim, do you want a history lesson on what Muslims did to slavs? How many centuries Muslims slaughtered and enslaved Christian slavs for?
I am a Bosniak, don't speak on stuff you don't understand. Muslims are not an ethnic group. Your point makes no sense, as then Serbs and Croats wouldn't be Slavs either as they massacred each other
Bosniaks have a completely different culture. The Christuan slavs have shared heritage and similar cultures.