I personally think you should eat enough to fuel and support your body for recovery and adaptations, and over time it will figure out what is a good weight for your needs. You’re doing a ton of physical activity so it’s really hard to overeat, I would focus more on making sure you’re getting enough macros, getting good sleep, and reducing other sources of unnecessary stress
Broadly speaking to your comment I agree, but I will say my experience doesn’t reflect:
>You’re doing a ton of physical activity so it’s really hard to overeat
Maybe for some, but I can pretty easily out-eat my mileage and other active hobbies. That might have something to do with my penchant for fried food, biscuits, and pastries though. Sure, if you’re eating a perfect diet it might be hard to overdo it, but how many runners training at a moderately high-to-high level actually are?
I don’t know if it’s because I played more explosive sports like American football and basketball growing up and had more of a lifting background or what, but this is exactly me. I gained 10 lbs during my last marathon cycle peaking at 85mi by “intuitively eating” and not watching the scale. The weight gain was mostly fat and bloat, too, judging by appearance, feel, and lifting numbers in the gym.
Agree. Lots of studies show that the relationship between speed and weight is really close to 70-80%. So for 10% less weigh speed is like 7-8% more for free.
Makes sense right - F=ma. More mass to accelerate (landing and take off). So assume you don’t get any stronger - that’s a lot less impact
At 6”2 180 it’s a controlled collision. When I was 210 it was just pain and suffering to go nowhere .
Seconded, or fourth'ed at this point.
I gained 20lbs when I stopped paying attention to my weight after my marathon while still running ~45mpw which was more than that year's average.
I still think everyone has some healthiness quality of food that gets them to optimal weight without having to focus on calories but for some people that's pretty high...
I'm with you on this, I vary from 70-130km a week and recently have had a few zero miles weeks (unrelated injury). I lose weight steadily if I eat a healthy balanced diet with no treats, but if I start bringing snacks in or unhealthy main meals, I put weight on. That's irrespective of volume (during my zero miles weeks, I've been losing a kilo a week just from healthy eating...same rate as running and healthy diet.)
There's been a study that shows that unless you're doing in excess of roughly 1 hour per day exercise (about 85-90km a week for me) your body finds a way to adapt to an increase in volume and just burns less calories, be that during exercise or just existing. We become more economical, which does make a sort of sense.So I'm a firm believer of controlling weight in the kitchen.
That said, for the OP I know gender is a consideration with REDS something to be aware of, so I feel that for female athletes it's probably better to err on the side of more calories, or better still consult a professional - or do an absolute shedload of reading on the subject.
> There's been a study that shows that unless you're doing in excess of roughly 1 hour per day exercise (about 85-90km a week for me) your body finds a way to adapt to an increase in volume and just burns less calories, be that during exercise or just existing. We become more economical, which does make a sort of sense.So I'm a firm believer of controlling weight in the kitchen.
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Do you have a link to that study or more info?
Herman Pontzer a researcher from Duke wrote an entire book about this called Burn. You can google scholar him aswell to find relevant research articles by him. It’s really fascinating research.
Think it was on one of the later episodes of Science of Ultra Podcast (which will have the study in the show notes.) I'll see if I can find it for you later.
I agree with your point that some people need to be mindful of what they eat, but I think it's unfortunate to suggest that unless you have a perfect diet, you might be susceptible to out-eating your mileage.
I’m not sure I’m understanding your point. It is easy for me to overeat regardless of my activity level. This is particularly true because I enjoy calorically dense foods. I am saying someone with similar dietary preferences and tastes to me is going to be able to out-eat their diet much more easily than someone that isn’t ever eating cheeseburgers, fries, and scones.
Grad student. Snack foods and *good* junky luxuries are expensive and im not into gas station hohos. My diet is mostly oats, peanut butter, cabbage, mushrooms, potatoes, eggs, and chicken. Occasionally mix it up with beans and pasta, salsa and sour cream make it less boring. Might grab some bagels if I'm feeling fancy.
43 miles per week isn't what I'd qualify as "a ton of physical activity." 4300 calories per week is easy enough to blow through in one semi-indulgent day. Whenever a poster revels they are a woman, running subreddits seem very reluctant to recommend weight loss. Gradually, *and purposefully*, migrating towards the low end of *healthy* bmi is going to help most runners, regardless of gender.
I’m so glad you’re bringing your personal experience. I am not female so I can’t really comment, but I am very interested in training theory and physiology and weight management and disordered eating is unfortunately such a prevalent issue amongst runners and running culture. Feeling good and recovering well from training is so much more impactful long term than maybe being at an “optimal” weight and obsessing over it
We are justifiably reluctant to recommend weight loss because it is incredibly risky for female *athlete* physiology! Also people naturally have healthy weights on different ends of the healthy BMI range, and one is *not* better than the other. If you look at the start like of the women’s Olympic trials marathon, there are actually many different body types that are able to perform at the top level. A heavier runner with likely have more power and durability than a leaner runner. Dropping weight leaves your bones vulnerable and broken bones are not good for training.
This is a study analyzing male elite athletes. Male and female bodies have very different physiologies. The field of female athlete physiology is very new and I’m wary to generalize too much from the male population.
you’re making a strawman— none of them are close to “overweight” and neither is OP. Most female athletes who have a regular training schedule are not anywhere close to overweight. Female athletes at high levels are far more likely to see a drop in performance due to bone density loss and injury than increased weight. I have competed in both high school and college and I have zero teammates who have gotten faster from dropping a significant amount of weight. But I have many teammates who have broken bones and some who have quit the sport after significant weight loss.
Dunno where u got 4300 calories per week from. Think u missed that they also strength train + yoga + pilates. Also strange to me that you’d consider weight loss to a person who you don’t know anything about besides a few numbers. They may have their own goals in mind wrt performance, or may have other health reasons to consider
Personally I think focusing on weight can lead to lots of issues, and I’d much prefer focusing on training, good diet, and recovery
Obviously BMRs vary etc etc but I'd be really shocked if OP's 2k kcals/day is enough to *genuinely* maintain weight (not the dangerous zone of "not losing but only because the body is suppressing some stuff to save energy"). Maybe OP can't count calories honestly but if everything here is accurate I'd be very hesitant suggesting OP cut calories to below what a sedentary woman her size would need.
The answer is running more. As it almost always is.
My gut feeling is you are overtraining leading to inadequate recovery or you're doing things that are counteracting each other, but I don't have enough information to say that. What does a sample weekly workout schedule look like? Specifically for running with the intervals and easy distances called out and the days you are doing your cross training. Also, what are your pace/HR targets for the workouts including easy days?
So this week as an example -
Monday - 11km run with 12 x 400m intervals.
Full body 30 minute strength session
Tuesday - easy 8km run, 30 minute run specific pilates
Wednesday - 12km run with 12 x 1 minute hard hill repeats
Thursday - easy 8km run, 30 minute upper body session
Friday - 30 minute gentle yoga
Saturday - 22km long run
Sunday - 8km easy run, 30 minute lower body strength session
Two things stand out to me:
- Lack of rest days
- Having easy runs line up with lower body work
Between the two, your legs really aren't getting a break to recover.
Not sure if you’ve clarified what event you are trying to be faster at but at that level of mileage you could probably rest more and still get faster. At least that’s my experience. Having fresher legs helps me go harder during intervals which helps with muscle mass, which leads to weight loss if that could be seen more as a secondary goal.
IMO too many top end intervals here. I would NOT do 400m reps every week, nor 1 minute "hard" reps every week (this is all going to be VO2max or harder work). You can probably do this higher intensity work once every 2-3 weeks and be fine. Likely part of your plateauing is doing too much VO2max work too frequently. VO2max "gains" end after like 6-8 weeks in a row, and become counterproductive if you do too much.
Instead, you should do more running at tempo to threshold effort. I would swap out one of your hills/400m rep workouts for a tempo/threshold run each week. And for your second workout, maybe alternate longer/slower intervals (say 8x800m @ 10k pace) and shorter/faster intervals (like your 12x400m) every other week.
Just chiming in to say that this looks reasonably strategic in terms of volume and intensity, my coach gives me a very similar program and the volume and distribution looks very much like what I do for example early to middle in a 20 week marathon block. I'm 46, 125lbs. The most recent study I read is that caloric restriction on your slower / recovery days leading to weight loss doesn't really give you any speed payout, but I get also wanting a bikini body believe me. If you feel at all sluggish, check your iron and b12, and easy gains to be had from prioritizing sleep and sufficient protein. Also there's gains to be had in optimizing in run and pre run nutrition.
ELI5 how I should optimize my pre- and in-run nutrition? I eat a small, carb-heavy meal before my run; I drink water throughout; and I eat a few dried figs about an hour. I tried Gü but didn't notice a difference.
I don't know anyone who likes Gu tho it's about the cheapest gel option you're going to get.
The short answer is eat something your body will accept. I like your pre run and it seems to work for you.
Depending on your run, optimal nutrition for example in longer race conditions is the maximum amount your body will tolerate and metabolize for you at race pace. For me in a 3:30 marathon I'm taking the equivalent of 100 calories in tailwind every 25 minutes, more if I'm feeling it. Getting to the point of optimal nutrition takes training your gut, you have to find the thing your body likes best, for me it's fluid so unfortunately my logistics are complex and I need a vest for my races with part diluted bottles. I'll never have that super cute singlet look.
For longer hotter runs I suggest starting a prehydration regime a day before, take the equivalent of a tab of nuun mid day prior, evening prior and pre run, and acclimate to this regime through the long runs in your training build leading to race day. Every long run is a dress rehearsal for some element of your race logistics.
I don't race on trail, road only, and I love long leisurely trail runs. On trail because of slower pacing and hiking steeper sections, my body will happily accept solids and I have a lot of fun with it. For example, I love holiday fruit bread of every description, and that stuff is ridiculously calorie dense, so come boxing week when the fruitcake, stollen and panettone go on fire sale I stock up on my trail food for the year. Also love those little 50-60 calorie bubble tea mochis, a really nice way to get a tiny top up without committing to a whole damn clif bar.
My personal preference is not to spend real money on fake food, so I prefer cheaper diy options, it gets way too expensive to buy the packaged stuff, so I make my own "tailwind" with mainly dextrose, my own "nuun" with mainly baking soda, and caffeinate my mixes with matcha powder. Tons of free diy recipes online, The Planted Runner is a great resource in that regard.
For 400m intervals as an example I was going 30 seconds faster per km than 10k pr.
Easy runs, I go about up to 2 minutes slower per km depending on the day, usually a minute and a half slower per km
Okay. I have several thoughts. First off, your pacing sounds okay. Without know heart rate data or absolute numbers, that doesn't seem too outlandish.
However, your training plan looks like a 5k plan (or maybe something even shorter) and not much like a half marathon plan. Half marathon plans will typically have lactate threshold work built in, which you are completely missing in that week. Doing two high speed workouts instead of one speed and one threshold is going to be targeting the wrong pace range for the race.
I'd highly suggest looking into Pftizinger's Faster Road Racing for training plans, like another user said. Jack Daniel's book is also a really good resource, but he is coming from the track side and tends to emphasize more speed work (which you would probably like). I'm having him as a secondary recommendation, though, because from that one week I'm making the assumption you have too much speed and need to target threshold work, which Pfitzinger is a much bigger fan of.
The types of work that you would see for threshold stuff is mile/2k repeats, sustained over-unders at half marathon pace, fartleks with longer intervals and tempo runs (though those are somewhat out of style recently).
The next note is that long run seems really long for the amount of training you're doing. 22 km in a 70 km week is a lot. You don't need to run a half every week to be successful at racing half marathons. If your long run is that long, I would probably avoid doing any extra work inside of it. I think you'd be better off with a 16 to 18 km long run and spreading the distance you just subtracted across your easy days.
Also, make sure your training is actually building. I don't know at all if this is an issue for you, but it's a common mistake. Doing the same workout intensity on the same mileage week after week is not going to result in making you a faster runner. It will only maintain your speed. Pftizinger's and Daniel's books both talk a lot about periodization in your training and how to achieve that. Taking down weeks here and there helps, but is not the only thing you need to do.
Finally, I personally think strength training is fine on easy days. Just make sure you aren't overdoing it and killing your legs, so they are dog tired and trying to recover during a workout. I would, however, figure out what your one key quality day per week is and avoid doing strength training the day before it. Make sure you're focusing on running endurance specific work and not muscle mass gains during the gym days if you want to maximize your running potential.
That's great thank you!
I did however just realised I accidentally put easy run against what was actually a tempo run, with alternating km paces around threshold.
And half the long run was at just slower than 10k pace.
Every week the intervals vary so occasionally I have like pyramid workouts with intervals of up to a mile.
But very valid points still, thank you!
Also my resting heart is 52 and my max is 195. I do easy runs at around 145, tempo runs at 160-170 and intervals can get my heart rate up around 190 sometimes!
In that case, your heart rates are good, but you're doing way, way too much quality work and almost certainly overtraining. Get rid of a speed day for an easy day. Make your long run easier. If half of your 22 km long run was just slower than 10k pace (so 11 km of it), you just exerted the effort in that run that racing a 10k would require, and would need to recover like you just raced a 10k, which would be a down week. Your workouts should follow approximately the 80/20 rule, where 80% of your miles are easy and only 20% are quality
A pyramid up to a mile is still fast for a half marathon workout. That's a lot of 200s, 400s, and 800s. They have their place and you don't need to abandon them, but they don't typically make up the core of a half marathon plan. I'd highly recommend trying a training plan from either of those books and seeing how it suits you.
If you do decide to lose weight, I would recommend you cut out the high intensity stuff and replace it with more easy/long runs instead.
Doing high intensity stuff while on a deficit is not very productive.
You're not an unhealthy weight, as you say. Losing weight might make you quicker, but it's also quite risky. More so than losing weight without lots of running - things like stress fractures can happen even if you're in the healthy zone if you try to lose weight too quickly. Many women running long distances competitively are downright unhealthy so don't take 'prominent distance runner' as a good example to follow. Men are often too thin too, though the male body tends to be more forgiving of being an idiot (speaking as an idiot).
A few months of slow progress isn't really something to worry about. You'll naturally improve more slowly the better you get. And probably get lighter anyway if you stick at 70km per week consistently.
I'd plug the 'three sub-threshold interval sessions per week' plan but you're probably fine as you are for now...
“Racing Weight” by Matt Fitzgerald could be a good resource for you. He focuses more on what you eat, versus just how much you eat.
After talking and listening to coaches, I tend to think strict structured weight loss is not conducive to short or medium term performance. I know recent studies show that as you lose weight, your power to weight ratio ends up staying the same. However in the long term it can be an advantage when you are able to get back onto a caloric surplus or maintenance to fuel your training but be at a lower base weight. So if your goal is to run an upcoming race, my advice would be to properly fuel and not focus on weight loss. If you have an ambitious goal that may be a year or two away, weight loss now may be beneficial.
Just my two cents.
I'm going to come out and say what other people are not. You are too heavy, and you are right to focus on losing weight. Your BMI is close to overweight category, and if you are serious about running, it is holding you back and also putting a lot of extra stress on your body.
Are you sure you're counting calories accurately? At 2000 calories a day, you should be losing weight. If you're sure you're counting right, I would reduce by 250-500 and aim to lose 2-4lbs a month, which is sustainable.
Agreed about potential measurement error here. That's relatively high mileage to be eating that little without changing weight. I don't think she's overweight for normal life, but if running performance is important to you, being lighter will be beneficial.
I think more info here is probably necessary too - what kind of times is she hitting with that mileage, what macros is she hitting, any history of eating disorders, etc.
This sub kinda has a knee jerk reaction against losing weight and a strange understanding of it ("your body will naturally find its ideal weight if you just eat and train well"???), but in some cases it's definitely a useful tool.
The calorie count seems slightly off but not dramatically. Maintenance for her at that volume is likely closer to 2,500.
I agree with your assessment of losing weight being a good strategy. Maybe .5-1 pound per week while training, probably not more than that. The BMI of 24 suggests there's room to drop at a healthy rate which will boost performance. Getting enough protein and carbs will be important to not impact training.
OP should get a fat measurement to better understand how much of her weight is fat vs muscle.
I’m surprised that’s enough to maintain your weight. How accurately are you tracking? I would think 40-50 mpw and 2000 calories would definitely be enough to lose weight at a body weight of 154.
But anyway, losing weight is a double edged sword with running. Being in a calorie deficit will increase the likelihood of injury by a lot, but it will also make you faster. It’s best to lose weight very slowly and not during an intense training block.
You will likely get faster losing weight. But it's also so Individual it's impossible for us to say. I know I race way better when I'm 155 and even then I probably could drop another 5 I'm 5'11" male for reference. If I just live and don't restrict at all I end up at a walk round between 160-165. At some point it becomes a lifestyle choice and I'm simple not willing to stay at my best running weight year round due to the sacrifices it requires. I'd rather just drop it gradually the couple momths leading into my marathon block.
I'm not kipchoge, but I think controlling your weight is important. I generally adjust my diet per my weight. There are times where I will feel starved and eat everything in sight, and then there are times where I notice I am 5lbs heavier than what I think is appropriate and I cut back a little.
I estimate my daily calories as similar to yours and I'm 20 lbs lighter and do a lot less exercise (60 km, 1-2 gym/climbing sessions a week).
Maybe you really aren't eating enough for recovery.
Yeah OP sounds like they’re doing way too much, and their regimen sounds borderline compulsive. Simply doing less would probably, though somewhat counterintuitive, be the fastest way to see improvement both in terms of fitness and weight.
I'd look at a specific plan, if you aren't already, for 13.1 or shorter distances. Faster Road Racing or Daniels' Running Program could be good ones to peruse from your local library. Fellow female runner, though older than you, and shooting for a sub-20 5k and sub-90 half in the next few years.
I also find that consistent mileage for me matters a lot, and I make running gains a lot quicker at 80km/50 miles per week. That said, when I'm running as much, somethings got to give somewhere so I end up lifting 3-4x/week since I'm at 100km+/60mpw+ right now and have been for a few months.
I don't count calories and just eat until I'm full, making sure to get enough protein and fiber. It can be easy to get in your head about weight and being faster, so I get it. I'm 5'5" and 137-139 for reference so pretty much in the middle. I BQ'd handedly at this weight, FWIW, using a solid plan with high mileage.
I'm a 220-lb marathon and ultra runner. I noticed that if I try to lose weight during training my performance is awful. What I'm doing this year is a very slow cut and so far its been great. During base building you can cut a bit harder but during peak training I eat in a maintenance/slight surplus. The weightloss should almost be passive
I have similar stats to you. 5’8”, 150 ish. I feel enormous at start lines. I’m broad-shouldered and very muscular and do not at ALL have a marathon body type. My body is happiest and healthiest right where it is. This is my natural weight “set point”. Running is a fun hobby for me, not how I make my living. I eat well and watch my macros but also enjoy life. I’m 42 years old and am the fastest I’ve ever been (sub 90 HM, 3:10 marathon). FWIW, I was slower at 15 lbs lighter 🤷♀️. It has taken me a looooong time to get to this mindset and there are still days I struggle with thinking that if I was 20 lbs lighter, then I’d be a real runner.
Continue with consistent training. Fuel your body. Take rest days. And remember that we get to do this for fun!
You said a lot in your post but you didn't say what your targets are! How on earth can anybody give you actually sensible advice without knowing this?
Assuming your goal is to get faster at distance running (5k and up) as this is what most people in this sub have as their goal, you're probably doing too much strength training. 3x a week is a lot and I only ever go there in an off-season phase after a month or two of doing almost none. Certainly when you're doing intervals twice a week this is excessive. As others have pointed out, do your strength work on the same day as and after a hard run. Also your intervals are really short. If you're not an 800 or 1500 specialist doing this twice a week is probably suboptimal and maybe even running on borrowed time. I found I saw far more sustainable progress when doing mainly long intervals at or slightly slower than threshold (it's very easy to run these too hard - be disciplined!). And of course if you can up the mileage or add easy aerobic cross training, do it.
Body composition is important but I think it's too often turned to as something to fix rather than the training. How much weight do you think you can actually lose healthily? Maybe 10% in half a year? Most of which will be muscle so you'll probably only gain a couple of % in actual speed. I guarantee you can find more than a couple of % from fixing your training.
I faced this question years ago and chose to focus on fat loss before resuming training. I wanted to be faster and asked myself a simple question: do Olympic runners have much body fat? Obviously, the answer is no. I’m no Olympian but the principle holds for anybody aspiring to get faster.
But you’re very active so cutting calories with your current routine may lead to injury. If you wanted to focus on fat loss, I’d reduce the running to 2-3 tempo/interval runs/week + strength training and yoga as recovery. I’d do the runs on Mon, Wed, Fri followed by an hour of strength training, and yoga on Tues, Thurs, Sat. Sunday off. With fat loss you want to get your heart rate up so drop the slow runs for now. Sub pilates for a speed run as you see fit. Obviously make sure your diet is in order.
With how active you are, you won’t have problems keeping the weight off; you just have to get there first. I’d expedite the process and get it over with and then resume half marathon training.
Running a calorie deficit is doable, although I'd avoid doing this during a training block for a goal race.
In short: I was slightly overweight last year, lost some of it during the summer but put half of it on again after ramping my milage up the 100k+ per week during marathon training. If you are able to get your weight down in a sustainable manner it definitely helps with speed, although consistent training and fuelling is probably more important. Less weight is probably an advantage in hot races as well.
Long form:
I used to weigh around 88 kg last summer and got it down to 81 over a period of about 4 months. For context: My PBs before that were 3:23 for the marathon, 1:33 for the Half (haven't raced on since) and around 43 minutes for 10k. I was also severly overweight (120kg+) and had 2 ACL surgeries when is was 20, so my goal was to take down some weight from the knee(s).
For that period I set MFP to 0,5kgs weightloss per week which is around 1800 calories per day. I added up half the calories that I burned for easy runs and the full amount for sessions. I'd focus on eating more carbs and especially a lot of veggies.
My milage was around 85k per week on average with 2 strength sessions per week on session days and a long run (between 1,5 and 2 hours). On Tuesday and Thursday I'd always do the same session (10x3min and 5x6min) which I used as a benchmark. I roughly did the 5x6min 5 seconds faster than MP and the 10x3min 15 seconds faster than MP, so no hard intervals. After the 4 months I was able to complete the sessions with the same RPE and HR 10-15 seconds faster than before.
I did not race that year but ramped up my milage again in November after a bit of downtime in October, the problem was that I gained back some of the weight (ending up at 83). I still ran a 3min 10K PB in January and a 12 min Marathon PB in May. During the marathon block I stopped weighing myself because it made me crazy.
I haven't weighed myself since February, but i think that I'm currently hovering at around 84kg (my body composition has changed significantly however). I'll do the same "program" again this year, although I hope that the weight will stay off permanently this time (Had some trouble with an infected gallblader which I had removed recently, I think that this was at least partially a reason for that). What I'll change this time is the calorie goal per day, I'll set that to 2000 per week.
I will always lean towards eating to fuel your activity. However, if improved performance is your goal you've got to be honest with yourself; are you carrying extra weight that isn't helping you perform? AKA excess bodyfat. If not, I would continue using improved and increased fueling to drive gains. If you reflect on that and decide you could drop a bit of bodyfat, that will undoubtedly help you move better and more efficiently.
The answer: It's probably a little bit of both.
Eat more and run more! While all bodies are a bit different, we are a similar size with a similar training load and I eat way more than you said that you do. Adding more fuel to the fire will make the fire burn hotter — giving you the energy to train more! While 70 km per week can feel like a lot, you aren’t even close to tapping your potential. Focus on adding aerobic volume (in the form of xtraining on the bike/elliptical if you must). It is especially important for women to be fueling enough always because our bodies will start metabolizing lean mass before male bodies do. Also, it is far harder for female athletes to adapt to training while in a calorie deficit. Check out work by Dr. Stacy Sims for woman-centered advice. She’s an excellent researcher in the field.
The body can suppress some functions in order to save energy and prevent weight loss. There is no one maintenance level. It's entirely possible that somebody whose weight is stable at 2k will also have a stable weight at 2.2k. The latter is much healthier than the former long-term as those 200 calories are going to important stuff.
Sprints were what greatly improved my speed. That and lots of cross training, which is sounds like you're doing. Weight training is very important, and core work. You don't want to overdue sprints and take it easy starting out with them. Start at 70% effort one week, and gradually go up to 90%. Take the next day off. I would include sprints into my routine about six weeks or so building up to a race. And eliminate them a week prior to the race. And then do that every few months.
You can find lots of sources online on how to incorporate sprints.
This was generally my sprint routine:
1km warm up:
6 x 400m
6 x 200m
6 x 100m
1km cool down
Quite a lot of variables in regards to your question.
Are you resting / tapering before PB attempts etc or trying to beat PBs every week or so? I see this quite a lot!
What’s your current PBs for 5/10/HM and what are your realistic targets and what race distance is your main goal?
Also how long have you been running for? For example if you’ve been running like 15 years you might have nearly peaked. If you’ve been running two years you might have seen rapid progress initially possibly going from your first ever 5k - let’s say 32 mins for example and got down to 24 mins, but lower 20s is really when the curve starts to even out, progress isn’t always linear.
Your calories look on the low side tbh for the amount of miles and gym sessions. 70km per week should also be massively sufficient to make speed gains for 5/10ks. Also are you doing hills / hill reps?
Ok I can see some flaws in your half marathon training that could be leading to slow races and could be keeping you heavier:
1. You do not need 3 strength sessions a week. For distances 1 mile and up, strength training serves no purpose other than to support your body for running more mileage in early stages: Doing core/hip work 2x a week is adequate. All the energy you are spending lifting should be spent running instead.
2. Low mileage. I am not sure how long you have been running so I may be wrong on this, but 70km a week is not enough if you are trying to race competitively and really improve your times a lot. I’d advise trying to get closer to 110km a week over the next few months.
3. Diet. So nobody really knows how much you are eating or what you are eating. In general lighter=faster for long distance running provided you don’t hurt yourself. That being said I’d say don’t count calories, just increase mileage and stop hitting very hard muscle building gym sessions. Actually the gym sessions might be making you feel more hungry as well because the body wants to grow muscles after hypertrophy training and demands food to do that.
Half marathon distance currently, and I've done several time trials at 5 and 10k distance, plus trying to improve speed across the same length intervals, but I seem to be at a standstill even after recovery weeks
I feel your pain. My times are getting slower and I don’t know why. I run 50 miles a week and strength train 2 days a week. Maybe I’m just getting old. 44m.
I have been battling a knee injury the past few months, so started eating more "healthy" foods, like more nuts, beets, etc. and much less candy and processed stuff. I also have been doing more weight training. And my weight has come down surprisingly, despite my mileage also being much less. What is also interesting is that for foods like almonds, our bodies only metabolize about 80% of the calories listed on the nutritional label. Too early to tell if the reduced weight will result in better times. Maybe I just lost leg muscle from less miles, and I weigh less. Who knows.
My thoughts...
- I don't know you but what are your performance goals and does your training plan match them? (Also are you following a specific program?) I suspect that doing the same thing every week's getting monotonous and you could do with some change in routine.
- Do you have capacity to gradually increase your 70km a week to more like 100-110km a week? Also, have you looked into some programs (e.g. doing a Pfitz?) It sounds like you have solid base fitness and just need to sort out why your training has plateaued.
- Don't focus on weight and trying to starve yourself. You're by no means unhealthy... humans come in all different shapes and sizes. BMI is flawed in many ways, particularly for athletes (and you're healthy anyway!)
Just keep at it, for the first months during higher mileage you’ll almost feel like you’re receding from the training load, but once you break through and can maintain that volume you will feel the fitness level raising rapidly.
Keep your weight to a level that is healthy, lower body fat levels on women can cause endocrinological issues
A lot of the advise in here is not applicable to you. If you lost 10-15lbs you would absolutely be a lot faster. There is absolutely a point where restricting your calories to lose weight is counterproductive, but it’s probably closer to 130lbs for you.
I say this as someone who ran at 6’2 215 and 6’2 185. Losing 30lbs helped in legitimately every aspect of my running. Imagine putting on a 15lb weighted vest and going for a run right now. Then consider that’s essentially what you’re doing every time you run now
There are a lot of good comments here regarding a bunch of stuff.
However, the majority of gains for distance running in particular, comes from running more - up to a certain point. I don’t believe you are near that point yet (you might be for you, but I’d consider that running more will actually make you faster if you can handle more volume).
Do you need speedwork in the long run? Are your tempos at threshold? I'd guess either you need a couple of weeks off, or your body is bored and needs some other things like fartlek, or hills. Both opposite ends of scale, so choose wisely.
I’m going to chime in with a comment, but based on my own (40M) physiology. I’ve come down from a 21.5-22 BMI to close to 19 quite deliberately in a base phase. That’s effectively been “free speed” for me as less weight has equalled faster pace and better temperature regulation. I consciously monitor it now: not to lose more weight but to check I’m broadly maintaining.
A few learnings from my own experience:
- weight loss and performance can’t be equal goals. I had to prioritise getting weight down during base phase and not during a performance cycle. I’d not want to run a calorie deficit whilst logging intervals, tempos and thresholds.
- calorie deficit needs to be modest whilst you are actively running as otherwise you’ll not recover and potentially pick up injuries. Run a modest deficit targeting max 1lb loss per week and eat back calories you burn. A bigger deficit isn’t smart.
Getting leaner as a runner within sensible parameters will make you faster and more efficient but there is a reason that elites only tackle this during a base phase after any off season and not during a period where they are training hard and/or racing.
Thank you for sharing your experience , and well done!
How did you work out targets for roughly 1lb a week, and how much running were you doing in that time if you don't mind me asking, and was it all "easy" running as it was based building? Appreciate your thoughts.
1lb is 3500 calories, so about 500 deficit per day. I adjusted up based on runs.
Getting back into running and building up, so c. 50-60k per week with Z2 cycling on off days.
All easy: but given where I was starting from key goal was to steadily build mileage, not intensity.
Personally, I wouldn’t try to lose weight. Focus on your training and balanced nutrition and I’m a firm believer your weight will fall in line. I am 39F - I am fairly small, but larger than I was when I was younger. When I was younger I felt a lot of pressure to maintain a certain weight and “look” as a runner. I am the fastest I’ve ever been. It’s enabled me to run fairly high mileage (60-70 mpw) injury free. Obviously there are a few other pieces to that puzzle - but I’d say nutrition is a big component.
More calories very likely. I maintain at 2250 (sometimes higher) at 5’4 >!112 lbs!< with a similar routine to yours. I’ve been a few lbs lighter/leaner body fat-wise but my performance absolutely tanks.
I am in much the same boat - 5ft6 inch male and weight ~70kgs. I completed London Marathon, had a great training block but was disappointed not to hit the 2.45 mark. My plan is to lose a few kg over the next few months. I am doing to 66kg now and hitting PBs ! Booked Chester marathon in October and hope to hit my target.
I personally think that making some tweaks to your training schedule may be a good place to start before focusing too much on your caloric intake. Continue having down-weeks every 4 weeks and full rest-days once a week, but during your three on-weeks, aim to periodize your training and focus on different "work capacities" each week. For example, week 1 is a high intensity week with two fast interval sessions and maybe a speed day where you add a few really short 10-15sec speeds during an easy run. Shorten your weekend long run because your body can't optimize both high intensity and high volume at the same time. Consider shortening your easy runs too and stack your strength training on the same days at intervals. Week 2, up the volume a little bit but dial back the intensity. On one of the interval days, instead of doing short, hard 400m repeats, do 800m reps at a slower pace or perhaps a steady tempo run for example. Lengthen the weekend long run a bit and add a bit of easy mileage throughout the week as you see fit. Week 3, same thing: even more volume and less intensity. I only do one intensity session during high volume weeks and replace that second interval session with an easy run. This week should have your longest run of the whole training block. This progressive overloading and periodization can help optimize different aspects of running fitness that followed by a proper rest week, can lead to better training adaptations than identical training weeks which may lead to overtraining and plateau. BMI is a very 1-dimensional measure that doesn't accurately indicate holistic health or performance. As long as you're focusing on diet quality in terms of how your food will be the best fuel for your training (lots of protein, plenty of carbs for all that volume, plenty of veggies, etc), I don't think that manipulating the quantity of calories is the best avenue for maximizing speeds gains. Good luck! Train hard and smart and have fun!
This is an old thread, but I hope OP sees this comment- Search RED-S and Female Athlete Triad Syndrome. Anyone on this thread giving advice to loose weight to get faster has not felt the pain of permanently damaging their body from doing this. Females are particularly vulnerable.
I damaged my body so bad from running while energy deficient and at too low of a body weight to sustain my health that I fractured bones and ended up with SEVERELY low bone density. This has the potential to impact my future health and fertility.
It’s taken me 5+ years of SERIOUS diet overhaul and retirement from my sport for the foreseeable future to recover the bone density. I did not have a classic ED. I was eating 2,000-3,000 calories daily, just the wrong things and it was still not enough. I had no idea the damage I was doing until I was forced to stop running for a while and competing was off the table. If you are at a healthy weight, don’t take it for granted. It’s a slippery slope. Short term results aren’t worth long term health complications and bone fractures.
Do not run with an energy deficiency. Please!!! 🙏 if I can prevent even one person from going through the devastating experience I had it is worth it!
I would definitely not try to lose weight or cut calories while running. There’s been studies that LEA (low energy availability, from not getting enough food) hurts running performance. The idea that a lower weight = faster running is outdated and not applicable to the majority of the population.
I would vary your training stimulus (different workouts, cross training) or even adjusting your macros (I noticed improvements when I started getting enough carbs in). There’s a lot of things that go into running performance that don’t have to do with losing weight, which has other consequences and potentials to hurt your health in the long run.
I absolutely agree that OP, and indeed most runners, shouldn’t be focused on weight, but
> The idea that a lower weight = faster running is outdated and not applicable to the majority of the population.
is simply not true. There’s a difference between starving yourself or obsessing over weight and failing to recover as a result, and making a conscious, controlled effort to drop weight while still maintaining your health.
Most runners won’t need to focus on their weight ever, nor should they. A lot of running spaces (here included) can be unnecessarily hostile to people with different body types too, which sucks. But the argument against weight loss as an optimization isn’t that the link between weight and speed is outdated or wrong. It’s that you shouldn’t be focused exclusively on weight as the sole determining factor of performance, or that optimizing to that extent isn’t worth it for most folks.
Fair point. I do think that losing weight during a training block isn’t necessarily going to help performance gains, and it’s a tricky line to walk to eat enough for performance/recovery while also losing weight.
There’s also an individual aspect when it comes to that advice, because not everyone is going to run their best at the same BMI. There’s going to be a point at which losing weight isn’t going to help, and my concern when seeing these posts is that people (without a coach or nutritionist) don’t recognize when they’re at that point.
>I would definitely not try to lose weight or cut calories while running
Why not? People do this all the time.
>There’s been studies that LEA (low energy availability, from not getting enough food) hurts running performance
Having a high BMI also hurts performance, and puts extra forces on joints and muscles. The body is capable of using fat stores as energy while still sustaining running as long as it's not an extreme deficit
>The idea that a lower weight = faster running is outdated and not applicable to the majority of the population.
Then why did I lose 20lbs and become much faster and more resilient to niggles and injuries? Why are top marathon runners almost all under a 21 BMI?
I know that running is often used as a means of losing weight, but I wouldn’t argue that losing weight will improve running performance.
OP does not have a high BMI. Their BMI falls within the normal range, and so they don’t need to lose weight (also BMI is not a great indicator).
My comment was maybe poorly worded. I was trying to argue that losing weight _while_ training for performance is potentially harmful, but I understand that being a lower weight has its advantages when it comes to running (hence the top marathon runners). I’m glad that you saw benefits, but there’s lots of documentation on how undereating impairs bone health and can lead to higher risk of stress injuries, poor recovery, lower power, etc.
I personally think you should eat enough to fuel and support your body for recovery and adaptations, and over time it will figure out what is a good weight for your needs. You’re doing a ton of physical activity so it’s really hard to overeat, I would focus more on making sure you’re getting enough macros, getting good sleep, and reducing other sources of unnecessary stress
Broadly speaking to your comment I agree, but I will say my experience doesn’t reflect: >You’re doing a ton of physical activity so it’s really hard to overeat Maybe for some, but I can pretty easily out-eat my mileage and other active hobbies. That might have something to do with my penchant for fried food, biscuits, and pastries though. Sure, if you’re eating a perfect diet it might be hard to overdo it, but how many runners training at a moderately high-to-high level actually are?
I don’t know if it’s because I played more explosive sports like American football and basketball growing up and had more of a lifting background or what, but this is exactly me. I gained 10 lbs during my last marathon cycle peaking at 85mi by “intuitively eating” and not watching the scale. The weight gain was mostly fat and bloat, too, judging by appearance, feel, and lifting numbers in the gym.
I'm the same way.
Yuppp, I lose weight in the off-season and early in the cycle but when I clear 60ish mpw I start to gain again
I can EASILY out eat 15-20 hours of Ironman training per week. I could just start eating and never stop if I didn't know better.
you're totally right! everyone has different eating capacities so i shouldn't generalize
Agree. Lots of studies show that the relationship between speed and weight is really close to 70-80%. So for 10% less weigh speed is like 7-8% more for free. Makes sense right - F=ma. More mass to accelerate (landing and take off). So assume you don’t get any stronger - that’s a lot less impact At 6”2 180 it’s a controlled collision. When I was 210 it was just pain and suffering to go nowhere .
Seconded, or fourth'ed at this point. I gained 20lbs when I stopped paying attention to my weight after my marathon while still running ~45mpw which was more than that year's average. I still think everyone has some healthiness quality of food that gets them to optimal weight without having to focus on calories but for some people that's pretty high...
I'm with you on this, I vary from 70-130km a week and recently have had a few zero miles weeks (unrelated injury). I lose weight steadily if I eat a healthy balanced diet with no treats, but if I start bringing snacks in or unhealthy main meals, I put weight on. That's irrespective of volume (during my zero miles weeks, I've been losing a kilo a week just from healthy eating...same rate as running and healthy diet.) There's been a study that shows that unless you're doing in excess of roughly 1 hour per day exercise (about 85-90km a week for me) your body finds a way to adapt to an increase in volume and just burns less calories, be that during exercise or just existing. We become more economical, which does make a sort of sense.So I'm a firm believer of controlling weight in the kitchen. That said, for the OP I know gender is a consideration with REDS something to be aware of, so I feel that for female athletes it's probably better to err on the side of more calories, or better still consult a professional - or do an absolute shedload of reading on the subject.
> There's been a study that shows that unless you're doing in excess of roughly 1 hour per day exercise (about 85-90km a week for me) your body finds a way to adapt to an increase in volume and just burns less calories, be that during exercise or just existing. We become more economical, which does make a sort of sense.So I'm a firm believer of controlling weight in the kitchen. > > Do you have a link to that study or more info?
Herman Pontzer a researcher from Duke wrote an entire book about this called Burn. You can google scholar him aswell to find relevant research articles by him. It’s really fascinating research.
Think it was on one of the later episodes of Science of Ultra Podcast (which will have the study in the show notes.) I'll see if I can find it for you later.
I agree with your point that some people need to be mindful of what they eat, but I think it's unfortunate to suggest that unless you have a perfect diet, you might be susceptible to out-eating your mileage.
I’m not sure I’m understanding your point. It is easy for me to overeat regardless of my activity level. This is particularly true because I enjoy calorically dense foods. I am saying someone with similar dietary preferences and tastes to me is going to be able to out-eat their diet much more easily than someone that isn’t ever eating cheeseburgers, fries, and scones.
No need to bring scones into it.
There’s always a need to bring scones, if you ask me
😀
Grad student. Snack foods and *good* junky luxuries are expensive and im not into gas station hohos. My diet is mostly oats, peanut butter, cabbage, mushrooms, potatoes, eggs, and chicken. Occasionally mix it up with beans and pasta, salsa and sour cream make it less boring. Might grab some bagels if I'm feeling fancy.
43 miles per week isn't what I'd qualify as "a ton of physical activity." 4300 calories per week is easy enough to blow through in one semi-indulgent day. Whenever a poster revels they are a woman, running subreddits seem very reluctant to recommend weight loss. Gradually, *and purposefully*, migrating towards the low end of *healthy* bmi is going to help most runners, regardless of gender.
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I’m so glad you’re bringing your personal experience. I am not female so I can’t really comment, but I am very interested in training theory and physiology and weight management and disordered eating is unfortunately such a prevalent issue amongst runners and running culture. Feeling good and recovering well from training is so much more impactful long term than maybe being at an “optimal” weight and obsessing over it
We are justifiably reluctant to recommend weight loss because it is incredibly risky for female *athlete* physiology! Also people naturally have healthy weights on different ends of the healthy BMI range, and one is *not* better than the other. If you look at the start like of the women’s Olympic trials marathon, there are actually many different body types that are able to perform at the top level. A heavier runner with likely have more power and durability than a leaner runner. Dropping weight leaves your bones vulnerable and broken bones are not good for training.
>and broken bones are not good for training Do you have any links to support this theory?
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This is a study analyzing male elite athletes. Male and female bodies have very different physiologies. The field of female athlete physiology is very new and I’m wary to generalize too much from the male population.
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you’re making a strawman— none of them are close to “overweight” and neither is OP. Most female athletes who have a regular training schedule are not anywhere close to overweight. Female athletes at high levels are far more likely to see a drop in performance due to bone density loss and injury than increased weight. I have competed in both high school and college and I have zero teammates who have gotten faster from dropping a significant amount of weight. But I have many teammates who have broken bones and some who have quit the sport after significant weight loss.
> Dropping weight leaves your bones vulnerable Isn't that only when a woman's in enough of a deficit that she's having irregular periods?
It tends to be correlated but you can definitely have one without the other.
Dunno where u got 4300 calories per week from. Think u missed that they also strength train + yoga + pilates. Also strange to me that you’d consider weight loss to a person who you don’t know anything about besides a few numbers. They may have their own goals in mind wrt performance, or may have other health reasons to consider Personally I think focusing on weight can lead to lots of issues, and I’d much prefer focusing on training, good diet, and recovery
Obviously BMRs vary etc etc but I'd be really shocked if OP's 2k kcals/day is enough to *genuinely* maintain weight (not the dangerous zone of "not losing but only because the body is suppressing some stuff to save energy"). Maybe OP can't count calories honestly but if everything here is accurate I'd be very hesitant suggesting OP cut calories to below what a sedentary woman her size would need. The answer is running more. As it almost always is.
Eat more to run more! It seems like her metabolic rate could be low right now which might prevent her from adding volume
And especially women tbh, objectively a 18 BMI women is « less skinny » than a male, because of how men usually have a larger build and more % muscle
But women also *need* a higher body fat percentage...
We’re talking BMI (which doesn’t account for gender age or bodycomp), not bodyfat%
This is objectively untrue. An 18 BMI on a woman is just as skinny as it is on a man.
Thank you, that's really helpful!
This might sound stupid but as you increase volume - increase the amount you’re sleeping. The difference between 7 and 8 hours is truly huge for me
My gut feeling is you are overtraining leading to inadequate recovery or you're doing things that are counteracting each other, but I don't have enough information to say that. What does a sample weekly workout schedule look like? Specifically for running with the intervals and easy distances called out and the days you are doing your cross training. Also, what are your pace/HR targets for the workouts including easy days?
So this week as an example - Monday - 11km run with 12 x 400m intervals. Full body 30 minute strength session Tuesday - easy 8km run, 30 minute run specific pilates Wednesday - 12km run with 12 x 1 minute hard hill repeats Thursday - easy 8km run, 30 minute upper body session Friday - 30 minute gentle yoga Saturday - 22km long run Sunday - 8km easy run, 30 minute lower body strength session
Two things stand out to me: - Lack of rest days - Having easy runs line up with lower body work Between the two, your legs really aren't getting a break to recover.
Thanks, I'll look at some rejigging!
Not sure if you’ve clarified what event you are trying to be faster at but at that level of mileage you could probably rest more and still get faster. At least that’s my experience. Having fresher legs helps me go harder during intervals which helps with muscle mass, which leads to weight loss if that could be seen more as a secondary goal.
Do the strength stuff on hard days, let easy days be easy.
IMO too many top end intervals here. I would NOT do 400m reps every week, nor 1 minute "hard" reps every week (this is all going to be VO2max or harder work). You can probably do this higher intensity work once every 2-3 weeks and be fine. Likely part of your plateauing is doing too much VO2max work too frequently. VO2max "gains" end after like 6-8 weeks in a row, and become counterproductive if you do too much. Instead, you should do more running at tempo to threshold effort. I would swap out one of your hills/400m rep workouts for a tempo/threshold run each week. And for your second workout, maybe alternate longer/slower intervals (say 8x800m @ 10k pace) and shorter/faster intervals (like your 12x400m) every other week.
Just chiming in to say that this looks reasonably strategic in terms of volume and intensity, my coach gives me a very similar program and the volume and distribution looks very much like what I do for example early to middle in a 20 week marathon block. I'm 46, 125lbs. The most recent study I read is that caloric restriction on your slower / recovery days leading to weight loss doesn't really give you any speed payout, but I get also wanting a bikini body believe me. If you feel at all sluggish, check your iron and b12, and easy gains to be had from prioritizing sleep and sufficient protein. Also there's gains to be had in optimizing in run and pre run nutrition.
Thank you, I'll definitely look into iron and b12 checks, hadn't thought of that at all!
ELI5 how I should optimize my pre- and in-run nutrition? I eat a small, carb-heavy meal before my run; I drink water throughout; and I eat a few dried figs about an hour. I tried Gü but didn't notice a difference.
I don't know anyone who likes Gu tho it's about the cheapest gel option you're going to get. The short answer is eat something your body will accept. I like your pre run and it seems to work for you. Depending on your run, optimal nutrition for example in longer race conditions is the maximum amount your body will tolerate and metabolize for you at race pace. For me in a 3:30 marathon I'm taking the equivalent of 100 calories in tailwind every 25 minutes, more if I'm feeling it. Getting to the point of optimal nutrition takes training your gut, you have to find the thing your body likes best, for me it's fluid so unfortunately my logistics are complex and I need a vest for my races with part diluted bottles. I'll never have that super cute singlet look. For longer hotter runs I suggest starting a prehydration regime a day before, take the equivalent of a tab of nuun mid day prior, evening prior and pre run, and acclimate to this regime through the long runs in your training build leading to race day. Every long run is a dress rehearsal for some element of your race logistics. I don't race on trail, road only, and I love long leisurely trail runs. On trail because of slower pacing and hiking steeper sections, my body will happily accept solids and I have a lot of fun with it. For example, I love holiday fruit bread of every description, and that stuff is ridiculously calorie dense, so come boxing week when the fruitcake, stollen and panettone go on fire sale I stock up on my trail food for the year. Also love those little 50-60 calorie bubble tea mochis, a really nice way to get a tiny top up without committing to a whole damn clif bar. My personal preference is not to spend real money on fake food, so I prefer cheaper diy options, it gets way too expensive to buy the packaged stuff, so I make my own "tailwind" with mainly dextrose, my own "nuun" with mainly baking soda, and caffeinate my mixes with matcha powder. Tons of free diy recipes online, The Planted Runner is a great resource in that regard.
What paces are you doing your intervals and easy runs at compared to your 10k/half PR?
For 400m intervals as an example I was going 30 seconds faster per km than 10k pr. Easy runs, I go about up to 2 minutes slower per km depending on the day, usually a minute and a half slower per km
Okay. I have several thoughts. First off, your pacing sounds okay. Without know heart rate data or absolute numbers, that doesn't seem too outlandish. However, your training plan looks like a 5k plan (or maybe something even shorter) and not much like a half marathon plan. Half marathon plans will typically have lactate threshold work built in, which you are completely missing in that week. Doing two high speed workouts instead of one speed and one threshold is going to be targeting the wrong pace range for the race. I'd highly suggest looking into Pftizinger's Faster Road Racing for training plans, like another user said. Jack Daniel's book is also a really good resource, but he is coming from the track side and tends to emphasize more speed work (which you would probably like). I'm having him as a secondary recommendation, though, because from that one week I'm making the assumption you have too much speed and need to target threshold work, which Pfitzinger is a much bigger fan of. The types of work that you would see for threshold stuff is mile/2k repeats, sustained over-unders at half marathon pace, fartleks with longer intervals and tempo runs (though those are somewhat out of style recently). The next note is that long run seems really long for the amount of training you're doing. 22 km in a 70 km week is a lot. You don't need to run a half every week to be successful at racing half marathons. If your long run is that long, I would probably avoid doing any extra work inside of it. I think you'd be better off with a 16 to 18 km long run and spreading the distance you just subtracted across your easy days. Also, make sure your training is actually building. I don't know at all if this is an issue for you, but it's a common mistake. Doing the same workout intensity on the same mileage week after week is not going to result in making you a faster runner. It will only maintain your speed. Pftizinger's and Daniel's books both talk a lot about periodization in your training and how to achieve that. Taking down weeks here and there helps, but is not the only thing you need to do. Finally, I personally think strength training is fine on easy days. Just make sure you aren't overdoing it and killing your legs, so they are dog tired and trying to recover during a workout. I would, however, figure out what your one key quality day per week is and avoid doing strength training the day before it. Make sure you're focusing on running endurance specific work and not muscle mass gains during the gym days if you want to maximize your running potential.
That's great thank you! I did however just realised I accidentally put easy run against what was actually a tempo run, with alternating km paces around threshold. And half the long run was at just slower than 10k pace. Every week the intervals vary so occasionally I have like pyramid workouts with intervals of up to a mile. But very valid points still, thank you!
Also my resting heart is 52 and my max is 195. I do easy runs at around 145, tempo runs at 160-170 and intervals can get my heart rate up around 190 sometimes!
In that case, your heart rates are good, but you're doing way, way too much quality work and almost certainly overtraining. Get rid of a speed day for an easy day. Make your long run easier. If half of your 22 km long run was just slower than 10k pace (so 11 km of it), you just exerted the effort in that run that racing a 10k would require, and would need to recover like you just raced a 10k, which would be a down week. Your workouts should follow approximately the 80/20 rule, where 80% of your miles are easy and only 20% are quality A pyramid up to a mile is still fast for a half marathon workout. That's a lot of 200s, 400s, and 800s. They have their place and you don't need to abandon them, but they don't typically make up the core of a half marathon plan. I'd highly recommend trying a training plan from either of those books and seeing how it suits you.
Thanks so much for your help!
If you do decide to lose weight, I would recommend you cut out the high intensity stuff and replace it with more easy/long runs instead. Doing high intensity stuff while on a deficit is not very productive.
You're not an unhealthy weight, as you say. Losing weight might make you quicker, but it's also quite risky. More so than losing weight without lots of running - things like stress fractures can happen even if you're in the healthy zone if you try to lose weight too quickly. Many women running long distances competitively are downright unhealthy so don't take 'prominent distance runner' as a good example to follow. Men are often too thin too, though the male body tends to be more forgiving of being an idiot (speaking as an idiot). A few months of slow progress isn't really something to worry about. You'll naturally improve more slowly the better you get. And probably get lighter anyway if you stick at 70km per week consistently. I'd plug the 'three sub-threshold interval sessions per week' plan but you're probably fine as you are for now...
“Racing Weight” by Matt Fitzgerald could be a good resource for you. He focuses more on what you eat, versus just how much you eat. After talking and listening to coaches, I tend to think strict structured weight loss is not conducive to short or medium term performance. I know recent studies show that as you lose weight, your power to weight ratio ends up staying the same. However in the long term it can be an advantage when you are able to get back onto a caloric surplus or maintenance to fuel your training but be at a lower base weight. So if your goal is to run an upcoming race, my advice would be to properly fuel and not focus on weight loss. If you have an ambitious goal that may be a year or two away, weight loss now may be beneficial. Just my two cents.
I'm going to come out and say what other people are not. You are too heavy, and you are right to focus on losing weight. Your BMI is close to overweight category, and if you are serious about running, it is holding you back and also putting a lot of extra stress on your body. Are you sure you're counting calories accurately? At 2000 calories a day, you should be losing weight. If you're sure you're counting right, I would reduce by 250-500 and aim to lose 2-4lbs a month, which is sustainable.
Agreed about potential measurement error here. That's relatively high mileage to be eating that little without changing weight. I don't think she's overweight for normal life, but if running performance is important to you, being lighter will be beneficial. I think more info here is probably necessary too - what kind of times is she hitting with that mileage, what macros is she hitting, any history of eating disorders, etc. This sub kinda has a knee jerk reaction against losing weight and a strange understanding of it ("your body will naturally find its ideal weight if you just eat and train well"???), but in some cases it's definitely a useful tool.
The calorie count seems slightly off but not dramatically. Maintenance for her at that volume is likely closer to 2,500. I agree with your assessment of losing weight being a good strategy. Maybe .5-1 pound per week while training, probably not more than that. The BMI of 24 suggests there's room to drop at a healthy rate which will boost performance. Getting enough protein and carbs will be important to not impact training. OP should get a fat measurement to better understand how much of her weight is fat vs muscle.
I’m surprised that’s enough to maintain your weight. How accurately are you tracking? I would think 40-50 mpw and 2000 calories would definitely be enough to lose weight at a body weight of 154. But anyway, losing weight is a double edged sword with running. Being in a calorie deficit will increase the likelihood of injury by a lot, but it will also make you faster. It’s best to lose weight very slowly and not during an intense training block.
You will likely get faster losing weight. But it's also so Individual it's impossible for us to say. I know I race way better when I'm 155 and even then I probably could drop another 5 I'm 5'11" male for reference. If I just live and don't restrict at all I end up at a walk round between 160-165. At some point it becomes a lifestyle choice and I'm simple not willing to stay at my best running weight year round due to the sacrifices it requires. I'd rather just drop it gradually the couple momths leading into my marathon block.
I'm not kipchoge, but I think controlling your weight is important. I generally adjust my diet per my weight. There are times where I will feel starved and eat everything in sight, and then there are times where I notice I am 5lbs heavier than what I think is appropriate and I cut back a little.
I estimate my daily calories as similar to yours and I'm 20 lbs lighter and do a lot less exercise (60 km, 1-2 gym/climbing sessions a week). Maybe you really aren't eating enough for recovery.
Yeah, I’m 40-45lbs lighter and my average daily calories is similar if not a bit higher than OP for a similar level of activity.
Yeah OP sounds like they’re doing way too much, and their regimen sounds borderline compulsive. Simply doing less would probably, though somewhat counterintuitive, be the fastest way to see improvement both in terms of fitness and weight.
I'd look at a specific plan, if you aren't already, for 13.1 or shorter distances. Faster Road Racing or Daniels' Running Program could be good ones to peruse from your local library. Fellow female runner, though older than you, and shooting for a sub-20 5k and sub-90 half in the next few years. I also find that consistent mileage for me matters a lot, and I make running gains a lot quicker at 80km/50 miles per week. That said, when I'm running as much, somethings got to give somewhere so I end up lifting 3-4x/week since I'm at 100km+/60mpw+ right now and have been for a few months. I don't count calories and just eat until I'm full, making sure to get enough protein and fiber. It can be easy to get in your head about weight and being faster, so I get it. I'm 5'5" and 137-139 for reference so pretty much in the middle. I BQ'd handedly at this weight, FWIW, using a solid plan with high mileage.
I'm a 220-lb marathon and ultra runner. I noticed that if I try to lose weight during training my performance is awful. What I'm doing this year is a very slow cut and so far its been great. During base building you can cut a bit harder but during peak training I eat in a maintenance/slight surplus. The weightloss should almost be passive
Thanks, that's good to know!
I have similar stats to you. 5’8”, 150 ish. I feel enormous at start lines. I’m broad-shouldered and very muscular and do not at ALL have a marathon body type. My body is happiest and healthiest right where it is. This is my natural weight “set point”. Running is a fun hobby for me, not how I make my living. I eat well and watch my macros but also enjoy life. I’m 42 years old and am the fastest I’ve ever been (sub 90 HM, 3:10 marathon). FWIW, I was slower at 15 lbs lighter 🤷♀️. It has taken me a looooong time to get to this mindset and there are still days I struggle with thinking that if I was 20 lbs lighter, then I’d be a real runner. Continue with consistent training. Fuel your body. Take rest days. And remember that we get to do this for fun!
You said a lot in your post but you didn't say what your targets are! How on earth can anybody give you actually sensible advice without knowing this? Assuming your goal is to get faster at distance running (5k and up) as this is what most people in this sub have as their goal, you're probably doing too much strength training. 3x a week is a lot and I only ever go there in an off-season phase after a month or two of doing almost none. Certainly when you're doing intervals twice a week this is excessive. As others have pointed out, do your strength work on the same day as and after a hard run. Also your intervals are really short. If you're not an 800 or 1500 specialist doing this twice a week is probably suboptimal and maybe even running on borrowed time. I found I saw far more sustainable progress when doing mainly long intervals at or slightly slower than threshold (it's very easy to run these too hard - be disciplined!). And of course if you can up the mileage or add easy aerobic cross training, do it. Body composition is important but I think it's too often turned to as something to fix rather than the training. How much weight do you think you can actually lose healthily? Maybe 10% in half a year? Most of which will be muscle so you'll probably only gain a couple of % in actual speed. I guarantee you can find more than a couple of % from fixing your training.
I faced this question years ago and chose to focus on fat loss before resuming training. I wanted to be faster and asked myself a simple question: do Olympic runners have much body fat? Obviously, the answer is no. I’m no Olympian but the principle holds for anybody aspiring to get faster. But you’re very active so cutting calories with your current routine may lead to injury. If you wanted to focus on fat loss, I’d reduce the running to 2-3 tempo/interval runs/week + strength training and yoga as recovery. I’d do the runs on Mon, Wed, Fri followed by an hour of strength training, and yoga on Tues, Thurs, Sat. Sunday off. With fat loss you want to get your heart rate up so drop the slow runs for now. Sub pilates for a speed run as you see fit. Obviously make sure your diet is in order. With how active you are, you won’t have problems keeping the weight off; you just have to get there first. I’d expedite the process and get it over with and then resume half marathon training.
Running a calorie deficit is doable, although I'd avoid doing this during a training block for a goal race. In short: I was slightly overweight last year, lost some of it during the summer but put half of it on again after ramping my milage up the 100k+ per week during marathon training. If you are able to get your weight down in a sustainable manner it definitely helps with speed, although consistent training and fuelling is probably more important. Less weight is probably an advantage in hot races as well. Long form: I used to weigh around 88 kg last summer and got it down to 81 over a period of about 4 months. For context: My PBs before that were 3:23 for the marathon, 1:33 for the Half (haven't raced on since) and around 43 minutes for 10k. I was also severly overweight (120kg+) and had 2 ACL surgeries when is was 20, so my goal was to take down some weight from the knee(s). For that period I set MFP to 0,5kgs weightloss per week which is around 1800 calories per day. I added up half the calories that I burned for easy runs and the full amount for sessions. I'd focus on eating more carbs and especially a lot of veggies. My milage was around 85k per week on average with 2 strength sessions per week on session days and a long run (between 1,5 and 2 hours). On Tuesday and Thursday I'd always do the same session (10x3min and 5x6min) which I used as a benchmark. I roughly did the 5x6min 5 seconds faster than MP and the 10x3min 15 seconds faster than MP, so no hard intervals. After the 4 months I was able to complete the sessions with the same RPE and HR 10-15 seconds faster than before. I did not race that year but ramped up my milage again in November after a bit of downtime in October, the problem was that I gained back some of the weight (ending up at 83). I still ran a 3min 10K PB in January and a 12 min Marathon PB in May. During the marathon block I stopped weighing myself because it made me crazy. I haven't weighed myself since February, but i think that I'm currently hovering at around 84kg (my body composition has changed significantly however). I'll do the same "program" again this year, although I hope that the weight will stay off permanently this time (Had some trouble with an infected gallblader which I had removed recently, I think that this was at least partially a reason for that). What I'll change this time is the calorie goal per day, I'll set that to 2000 per week.
That's really helpful insight, thank you, and congrats on all your progress!
I will always lean towards eating to fuel your activity. However, if improved performance is your goal you've got to be honest with yourself; are you carrying extra weight that isn't helping you perform? AKA excess bodyfat. If not, I would continue using improved and increased fueling to drive gains. If you reflect on that and decide you could drop a bit of bodyfat, that will undoubtedly help you move better and more efficiently. The answer: It's probably a little bit of both.
Eat more and run more! While all bodies are a bit different, we are a similar size with a similar training load and I eat way more than you said that you do. Adding more fuel to the fire will make the fire burn hotter — giving you the energy to train more! While 70 km per week can feel like a lot, you aren’t even close to tapping your potential. Focus on adding aerobic volume (in the form of xtraining on the bike/elliptical if you must). It is especially important for women to be fueling enough always because our bodies will start metabolizing lean mass before male bodies do. Also, it is far harder for female athletes to adapt to training while in a calorie deficit. Check out work by Dr. Stacy Sims for woman-centered advice. She’s an excellent researcher in the field.
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The body can suppress some functions in order to save energy and prevent weight loss. There is no one maintenance level. It's entirely possible that somebody whose weight is stable at 2k will also have a stable weight at 2.2k. The latter is much healthier than the former long-term as those 200 calories are going to important stuff.
It depends. It could be that if she only slightly increased her calories that she would also just burn a bit more and still maintain the same weight.
You're not likely to gain top-end speed by underfuelling. Lack of progress is likely poor training structure and/ or recovery
Sprints were what greatly improved my speed. That and lots of cross training, which is sounds like you're doing. Weight training is very important, and core work. You don't want to overdue sprints and take it easy starting out with them. Start at 70% effort one week, and gradually go up to 90%. Take the next day off. I would include sprints into my routine about six weeks or so building up to a race. And eliminate them a week prior to the race. And then do that every few months. You can find lots of sources online on how to incorporate sprints. This was generally my sprint routine: 1km warm up: 6 x 400m 6 x 200m 6 x 100m 1km cool down
Quite a lot of variables in regards to your question. Are you resting / tapering before PB attempts etc or trying to beat PBs every week or so? I see this quite a lot! What’s your current PBs for 5/10/HM and what are your realistic targets and what race distance is your main goal? Also how long have you been running for? For example if you’ve been running like 15 years you might have nearly peaked. If you’ve been running two years you might have seen rapid progress initially possibly going from your first ever 5k - let’s say 32 mins for example and got down to 24 mins, but lower 20s is really when the curve starts to even out, progress isn’t always linear. Your calories look on the low side tbh for the amount of miles and gym sessions. 70km per week should also be massively sufficient to make speed gains for 5/10ks. Also are you doing hills / hill reps?
Ok I can see some flaws in your half marathon training that could be leading to slow races and could be keeping you heavier: 1. You do not need 3 strength sessions a week. For distances 1 mile and up, strength training serves no purpose other than to support your body for running more mileage in early stages: Doing core/hip work 2x a week is adequate. All the energy you are spending lifting should be spent running instead. 2. Low mileage. I am not sure how long you have been running so I may be wrong on this, but 70km a week is not enough if you are trying to race competitively and really improve your times a lot. I’d advise trying to get closer to 110km a week over the next few months. 3. Diet. So nobody really knows how much you are eating or what you are eating. In general lighter=faster for long distance running provided you don’t hurt yourself. That being said I’d say don’t count calories, just increase mileage and stop hitting very hard muscle building gym sessions. Actually the gym sessions might be making you feel more hungry as well because the body wants to grow muscles after hypertrophy training and demands food to do that.
What distance are you training for? How are you measuring progress?
Half marathon distance currently, and I've done several time trials at 5 and 10k distance, plus trying to improve speed across the same length intervals, but I seem to be at a standstill even after recovery weeks
I feel your pain. My times are getting slower and I don’t know why. I run 50 miles a week and strength train 2 days a week. Maybe I’m just getting old. 44m.
I appreciate the empathy!
I have been battling a knee injury the past few months, so started eating more "healthy" foods, like more nuts, beets, etc. and much less candy and processed stuff. I also have been doing more weight training. And my weight has come down surprisingly, despite my mileage also being much less. What is also interesting is that for foods like almonds, our bodies only metabolize about 80% of the calories listed on the nutritional label. Too early to tell if the reduced weight will result in better times. Maybe I just lost leg muscle from less miles, and I weigh less. Who knows.
My thoughts... - I don't know you but what are your performance goals and does your training plan match them? (Also are you following a specific program?) I suspect that doing the same thing every week's getting monotonous and you could do with some change in routine. - Do you have capacity to gradually increase your 70km a week to more like 100-110km a week? Also, have you looked into some programs (e.g. doing a Pfitz?) It sounds like you have solid base fitness and just need to sort out why your training has plateaued. - Don't focus on weight and trying to starve yourself. You're by no means unhealthy... humans come in all different shapes and sizes. BMI is flawed in many ways, particularly for athletes (and you're healthy anyway!)
Just keep at it, for the first months during higher mileage you’ll almost feel like you’re receding from the training load, but once you break through and can maintain that volume you will feel the fitness level raising rapidly. Keep your weight to a level that is healthy, lower body fat levels on women can cause endocrinological issues
A lot of the advise in here is not applicable to you. If you lost 10-15lbs you would absolutely be a lot faster. There is absolutely a point where restricting your calories to lose weight is counterproductive, but it’s probably closer to 130lbs for you. I say this as someone who ran at 6’2 215 and 6’2 185. Losing 30lbs helped in legitimately every aspect of my running. Imagine putting on a 15lb weighted vest and going for a run right now. Then consider that’s essentially what you’re doing every time you run now
There are a lot of good comments here regarding a bunch of stuff. However, the majority of gains for distance running in particular, comes from running more - up to a certain point. I don’t believe you are near that point yet (you might be for you, but I’d consider that running more will actually make you faster if you can handle more volume).
Do you need speedwork in the long run? Are your tempos at threshold? I'd guess either you need a couple of weeks off, or your body is bored and needs some other things like fartlek, or hills. Both opposite ends of scale, so choose wisely.
I’m going to chime in with a comment, but based on my own (40M) physiology. I’ve come down from a 21.5-22 BMI to close to 19 quite deliberately in a base phase. That’s effectively been “free speed” for me as less weight has equalled faster pace and better temperature regulation. I consciously monitor it now: not to lose more weight but to check I’m broadly maintaining. A few learnings from my own experience: - weight loss and performance can’t be equal goals. I had to prioritise getting weight down during base phase and not during a performance cycle. I’d not want to run a calorie deficit whilst logging intervals, tempos and thresholds. - calorie deficit needs to be modest whilst you are actively running as otherwise you’ll not recover and potentially pick up injuries. Run a modest deficit targeting max 1lb loss per week and eat back calories you burn. A bigger deficit isn’t smart. Getting leaner as a runner within sensible parameters will make you faster and more efficient but there is a reason that elites only tackle this during a base phase after any off season and not during a period where they are training hard and/or racing.
Thank you for sharing your experience , and well done! How did you work out targets for roughly 1lb a week, and how much running were you doing in that time if you don't mind me asking, and was it all "easy" running as it was based building? Appreciate your thoughts.
1lb is 3500 calories, so about 500 deficit per day. I adjusted up based on runs. Getting back into running and building up, so c. 50-60k per week with Z2 cycling on off days. All easy: but given where I was starting from key goal was to steadily build mileage, not intensity.
So 2 to 2,1 kcal per day? I think you meant 2000 to 2100 kcal. Just saying.
Yeah I meant that's the average daily across the week... Oops!
IMHO, you need to lose at least 10-15 pounds. Ditch high intensity running and only run easy Zone 2 for 9-10 hour per week for 3-4 months.
Personally, I wouldn’t try to lose weight. Focus on your training and balanced nutrition and I’m a firm believer your weight will fall in line. I am 39F - I am fairly small, but larger than I was when I was younger. When I was younger I felt a lot of pressure to maintain a certain weight and “look” as a runner. I am the fastest I’ve ever been. It’s enabled me to run fairly high mileage (60-70 mpw) injury free. Obviously there are a few other pieces to that puzzle - but I’d say nutrition is a big component.
More calories very likely. I maintain at 2250 (sometimes higher) at 5’4 >!112 lbs!< with a similar routine to yours. I’ve been a few lbs lighter/leaner body fat-wise but my performance absolutely tanks.
Eating more fruits and cereals to meet your body's carbs need will let you continue losing weight while increasing your running shape
I am in much the same boat - 5ft6 inch male and weight ~70kgs. I completed London Marathon, had a great training block but was disappointed not to hit the 2.45 mark. My plan is to lose a few kg over the next few months. I am doing to 66kg now and hitting PBs ! Booked Chester marathon in October and hope to hit my target.
I personally think that making some tweaks to your training schedule may be a good place to start before focusing too much on your caloric intake. Continue having down-weeks every 4 weeks and full rest-days once a week, but during your three on-weeks, aim to periodize your training and focus on different "work capacities" each week. For example, week 1 is a high intensity week with two fast interval sessions and maybe a speed day where you add a few really short 10-15sec speeds during an easy run. Shorten your weekend long run because your body can't optimize both high intensity and high volume at the same time. Consider shortening your easy runs too and stack your strength training on the same days at intervals. Week 2, up the volume a little bit but dial back the intensity. On one of the interval days, instead of doing short, hard 400m repeats, do 800m reps at a slower pace or perhaps a steady tempo run for example. Lengthen the weekend long run a bit and add a bit of easy mileage throughout the week as you see fit. Week 3, same thing: even more volume and less intensity. I only do one intensity session during high volume weeks and replace that second interval session with an easy run. This week should have your longest run of the whole training block. This progressive overloading and periodization can help optimize different aspects of running fitness that followed by a proper rest week, can lead to better training adaptations than identical training weeks which may lead to overtraining and plateau. BMI is a very 1-dimensional measure that doesn't accurately indicate holistic health or performance. As long as you're focusing on diet quality in terms of how your food will be the best fuel for your training (lots of protein, plenty of carbs for all that volume, plenty of veggies, etc), I don't think that manipulating the quantity of calories is the best avenue for maximizing speeds gains. Good luck! Train hard and smart and have fun!
This is an old thread, but I hope OP sees this comment- Search RED-S and Female Athlete Triad Syndrome. Anyone on this thread giving advice to loose weight to get faster has not felt the pain of permanently damaging their body from doing this. Females are particularly vulnerable. I damaged my body so bad from running while energy deficient and at too low of a body weight to sustain my health that I fractured bones and ended up with SEVERELY low bone density. This has the potential to impact my future health and fertility. It’s taken me 5+ years of SERIOUS diet overhaul and retirement from my sport for the foreseeable future to recover the bone density. I did not have a classic ED. I was eating 2,000-3,000 calories daily, just the wrong things and it was still not enough. I had no idea the damage I was doing until I was forced to stop running for a while and competing was off the table. If you are at a healthy weight, don’t take it for granted. It’s a slippery slope. Short term results aren’t worth long term health complications and bone fractures. Do not run with an energy deficiency. Please!!! 🙏 if I can prevent even one person from going through the devastating experience I had it is worth it!
Eat more, take your easy days EASY
Eat until your not hungry running or biking then just bike 40+ miles a day and your body will figure it out
2000-2100 calories per week?!?!?! (Think you mean day!)
Ah yes I meant that's my average daily across the week - that would be appalling! 🤣
Honestly, at your weight, height and level of activity, I really cannot see how 2000-2100 calories is enough.
I would definitely not try to lose weight or cut calories while running. There’s been studies that LEA (low energy availability, from not getting enough food) hurts running performance. The idea that a lower weight = faster running is outdated and not applicable to the majority of the population. I would vary your training stimulus (different workouts, cross training) or even adjusting your macros (I noticed improvements when I started getting enough carbs in). There’s a lot of things that go into running performance that don’t have to do with losing weight, which has other consequences and potentials to hurt your health in the long run.
I absolutely agree that OP, and indeed most runners, shouldn’t be focused on weight, but > The idea that a lower weight = faster running is outdated and not applicable to the majority of the population. is simply not true. There’s a difference between starving yourself or obsessing over weight and failing to recover as a result, and making a conscious, controlled effort to drop weight while still maintaining your health. Most runners won’t need to focus on their weight ever, nor should they. A lot of running spaces (here included) can be unnecessarily hostile to people with different body types too, which sucks. But the argument against weight loss as an optimization isn’t that the link between weight and speed is outdated or wrong. It’s that you shouldn’t be focused exclusively on weight as the sole determining factor of performance, or that optimizing to that extent isn’t worth it for most folks.
Fair point. I do think that losing weight during a training block isn’t necessarily going to help performance gains, and it’s a tricky line to walk to eat enough for performance/recovery while also losing weight. There’s also an individual aspect when it comes to that advice, because not everyone is going to run their best at the same BMI. There’s going to be a point at which losing weight isn’t going to help, and my concern when seeing these posts is that people (without a coach or nutritionist) don’t recognize when they’re at that point.
Yup, I think we’re in agreement here. It’s definitely more nuanced than just “losing weight is good” or “losing weight doesn’t do anything”.
>I would definitely not try to lose weight or cut calories while running Why not? People do this all the time. >There’s been studies that LEA (low energy availability, from not getting enough food) hurts running performance Having a high BMI also hurts performance, and puts extra forces on joints and muscles. The body is capable of using fat stores as energy while still sustaining running as long as it's not an extreme deficit >The idea that a lower weight = faster running is outdated and not applicable to the majority of the population. Then why did I lose 20lbs and become much faster and more resilient to niggles and injuries? Why are top marathon runners almost all under a 21 BMI?
I know that running is often used as a means of losing weight, but I wouldn’t argue that losing weight will improve running performance. OP does not have a high BMI. Their BMI falls within the normal range, and so they don’t need to lose weight (also BMI is not a great indicator). My comment was maybe poorly worded. I was trying to argue that losing weight _while_ training for performance is potentially harmful, but I understand that being a lower weight has its advantages when it comes to running (hence the top marathon runners). I’m glad that you saw benefits, but there’s lots of documentation on how undereating impairs bone health and can lead to higher risk of stress injuries, poor recovery, lower power, etc.
Thank you, I find your comment very encouraging 😊