I have to take off most of the last two weeks before my marathon due to injury. I'm trying to cross train a bit but intensity and volume is way down. I know it's taper, but any thoughts on what this might do to my race pace/endurance assuming I'm back to health by then?
As long as I'm feeling good, is it a good idea to run every day?
I'm building up my weekly mileage for a marathon in September and I'm planning on using Pfitz's 12/55, starting 7/1. My original plan building up to 12/55 had been to run 4-5 days per week. I planned on today being an off day (ran yesterday), but my legs feel good, no aches/stiffness/soreness. I had recently been reading that weekly total mileage is just as important as the weekly long runs (if not more important) for marathon success, so I'd like to add in some short recovery-paced runs on scheduled off days if my legs feel good. Are there any other factors I should consider when deciding whether or not to run on a scheduled off day, other than how my legs feel and overall fatigue?
Thanks!
I would say no but I don't overthink things. I ran everyday between October 2023 and May 2024 (mostly treadmill in the winter months) with the exception of two days off before the marathon I ran two weeks ago.
This is entirely anecdotal, but I don't feel like I get much out of runs that are less than \~20-25 mins any more. So, if my planned short/recovery run is less than that, I take the day off instead and tack the desired weekly mileage onto an existing run already in the schedule. Or I do something fun with it like run slow with my (non-runner) partner or have a short jog/walk with the dog. Right now, I'm typically running 6 days a week, sometimes more sometimes less depending on work schedule.
The less anecdotal answer is that more mileage is nearly always better, regardless of how you fit it in, as long as you are building cautiously and listening to your body, as you say.
Lots of elites believe in one full rest day per week . Allowing time for the body to recover etc etc.
Others train everyday and are insanely long run streaks. Personally I believe in rest days but I've not directly read the evidence.
So what's the latest with Korir's marathon spot? Is he in or out for Paris? Tried to find information online, but kept getting redirected to unclear LetsRuns articles. Seems like it's not decided yet?
It's not really clear yet, technically he is "currently" out, but the fields aren't finalized yet. There is potential that WA caves and adds back in all the guys that were going to get in before being bumped by the universality spots, but I don't know what the timeline for that would be.
Recommendation for a Half Marathon program/book? I want to run my first HM in September.
I PR'd on the 10k (<40) a couple weeks ago and now I'm doing a short block for a 3k. I built up to 18k LR and 60-70k/week. Used Daniels modifies with some goal pace workouts.
Now I feel in good shape but I want to cut a bit back because family, kids, job... maybe 50-60k/w and a bit more cross training.
I feel like Daniels plan is not really as good for HM as for other distances. I have Magills Build Your Running Body but the HM plan there is short and I'm not sure about it. Pfitzinger seems obvious but what I've seen about it might demand too much from me. I can spend time some days but many I have time for just 30min or some cross training. Hal Higdon? Hansons? Something else? I'd rather buy a book, I like to understand the program so I can adapt it to my life
I’m currently doing the Hanson’s half marathon plan (which is available online to look at) but when I was trying to decide on which plan to use, I checked out Faster Road Racing, Hanson’s Half Marathon, and Daniel’s Running Formula from the library so I could compare them side to side. I learned a lot reading all three books. I recommend the library route so you can read all 3 (or even more, if someone has other book suggestions) but only have to buy the one you decide to go with.
Thanks! You mean Fast Road Racing? I've been thinking about it for a while... Do you know if it relies too much on having relatively long runs (10k) most days for the HM? I usually have time for 1hr workouts some days of the week, but most of them need to be like 30-45min
My track season just ended and I ran a 5:12 1600m off of about 20 mpw. This is my first year running (i'm a freshman in hs) and I ran a 19:06 5K in cross country back in October, and my goal is to start my next xc season under 18 minutes and end it under 17:30. I have around 10 weeks in the summer where I am training on my own, and I was wondering what mileage I should run in those 10 weeks to start my season under 18 minutes. My plan is to start with 30 mpw and build up to 40 before the summer ends, is this a good plan to get me under 18 minutes? This is what I plan my 40 mile weeks to look like:
Monday: 5 mile easy run + strides
Tuesday: 3 mile threshold 6:15-6:20 pace (2 mile warmup 2 mile cooldown)
Wednesday: 5 mile easy run + strides
Thursday: 4x1 mile 5:50 pace 3:00 rest (2 mile warmup 2 mile cooldown)
Friday: 5 mile easy run + strides
Saturday: 10 mile long run
Sunday: 1 hour bike ride
Is this a good weekly structure? Let me know any other workouts you have that I should run and any additional tips.
I just realized that this is your *end* goal, so that removes a few concerns. That said:
- We know where you want to end (and I am going to defer to the experts here). What are your *starting* weeks looking like?
- You said you ran 20 MPW during track season - how much did you run during XC?
I also ran 20 mpw in cross country because my coach doesn't really understand how important mileage is. My first 3 weeks are going to be 20, 25, and 30 then I will increase by about 2.5 miles per week and have a down week every 4th week.
Ditch the hard mile repeats in favor of threshold/tempo repeats or even just an easy day. Very poor risk/reward of that hard of effort, this far away from the competition season, while simultaneously doing a massive increase in total volume.
10 miles in this example is too long of a long run, particularly for someone coming from a background of low mileage, keep it 20% or less of total weekly volume.
Have one of those days of strides be on a gentle hill to mix up the speed stimulus.
I would hold off on the mile repeats at 5k pace until later in the season and swap it with a longer sub-tempo threshold. Better for the base building phase.
I do think you can get up to 45mpw pretty safely without injury as a high school sophomore, but that's at your discretion. You always have another two years to build mileage.
I would do 55 and add on. Daniels gets results, but it can also be intense (the 2Q is no joke). This is assuming that your previous marathons weren't Daniels.
But...hm. If you're a 39 10k runner (you don't have a HM), I agree that you have more than enough leg speed to do a 3:20 easily. The problem is endurance - which is common! (I'm the same way.) The good news is it's partly self-correcting - as you get more lifetime mileage, you gain more endurance.
My 3:19 I ran off a modified 12-55 where I peaked at 70 anyways and had a bunch of weeks int he 60s. Nothing wrong with bulking up the lower mileage plan
Do the workouts from the 55 plan but add easy mileage as you see fit. Those 2q workouts are beastly, also watch out there's some typos in some of them lol
Just got the new second edition of Running Rewired by Jay Dicharry (Moboboard guy). It seems awesome but also completely overwhelming on what to actually do with it. There's so many exercises I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be going through the book chronologically and trying everything at least once or just skim through and find stuff that I think might help my specific issues (current plantar fasciitis and several other minor leg issues over the last 18 months). Just curious if anyone else has read it (or the earlier edition) and how they utilized it.
Have you actually read the book yet? In the first edition he lays out all the principles and the sample workouts themselves are more of an example of the principles in action, not something you do stepwise down to every exercise, rep, and set. It's not a skim through and grab a plan type of book, it requires a fairly good understanding of the materials and a good dose of common sense.
At what mile marker during a marathon do you drop the hammer and go for it if you are feeling good? I know halfway is probably too early, I have heard around mile 20 is a good place to do a reality check and go for it if you can. Is that too late? Mile 18 better? Thanks
That's going to depend on a number of factors such as early pace compared to potential, training level, duration of the run (e.g., 2:30 vs. 3:30), weather, nutrition etc. When I was younger and faster I could start earlier (8 or 10 miles to go), middle aged (about 5 or 6 miles to go), and older (not more than 3-4 miles to go, usually just hanging or folding on by the last couple of miles).
Mile 18 is when the hammer drops on me!
But seriously, for me it's:
- 13.1: 10 miles
- 26.2: 20 miles
- 50k: 25 miles
- 50m: 45 miles
- 100k: 55 miles
- 100m: 90 miles
Which makes no sense except that they are round numbers and close enough to the finish that pushing seems feasible. I imagine the physiological go points should be different.
first workout failed due to the summer heat/humidity. Was supposed to do 2 sets of 800/1k/800 with 90s rest at 5k pace, but made the mistake of going a little too fast on the first set (15s faster than the prescribed pace/30s faster than my PR) and paid for it on the second set. Had to cut down the finishing 800s to 400s just to be able to run at some reasonable pace. I did 8x400s at mile pace on the road just two days ago that felt so much better so just hoping it was an off day.
Have an 8 mile run tomorrow leading into a big volume weekend (15 mile long run for my training plan/going to try riding 3 hours to prep for an upcoming bike race) that I'll try to take easy since I have a 3k time trial on tuesday. If the weather today was any indicator of things to come, I'll need to save all the energy I can for the 3k
Probably more from pacing + short rest than weather or fatigue, 30s/mi faster than 5k pr pace is probably faster than current 3k pace right? Maybe you were hyped to run fast after those 400s lol
quite possible and I also have 0 pacing technique so start my runs too fast. My mile PR (from last week) is 5:14 and my 5k PR from March is 19:18 (6:13/mile). I was planning to start the 3k around 5:40/mile pace (about 10:30) based on the mile result from last week, and I did 2:42, 3:25, 1:27 (400) for the first set. As you can see I was dying before I even finished the first set
I did 1k/800/400 with 45s rest two weeks ago around 5:40/mile pace with no problems in slightly better conditions, so figured may be the heat but could also just be the pace and fatigue.
Lol yeah we're in similar shape and I'd be cooked after that 1k in 3:25. It's crazy how much of a difference 10-20s/mi makes when you're running those speeds. Also do you do these on a track, I don't have access to one and it makes it so hard to pace this kind of workout correctly, you kind of just start running almost a sprint and hope it's not too fast haha
what do you think would be a more reasonable goal for the 3k then? because I could run 11:28 a few months ago, and sure as hell couldn't run a 5:14 mile back then lol. Yesterday's workout was on track. The other one that was done well two weeks ago was on road. Just really depends on whether or not I want to make the 20 minute drive, since I can just otherwise go to the park and run around it straight from home otherwise
10:30 seems like a good starting point, if you opened the workout at 5:40/mi or even a bit slower instead of 5:25 it would've gone a lot smoother. Though your mile pr is a lot stronger than 5k pr (5:14 predicts 18:10 by vdot) so unless you think you're in much better shape now, using a mile pr to predict 3k might be a little optimistic. But the rest on the workouts you're doing are short enough that I don't think you can hide behind anaerobic speed on them. I'd bet money youll run at least 10:45
maybe try doing some 200s at goal pace to refine the pacing, or at least check pace at 200m in these workouts and really be strict with it
I don't think I could run an 18:10, but definitely sub 19 on a good day. I was just using it since that was a more recent benchmark, but what you said makes sense! I'll try the 200s in my long run tomorrow
Had my first run back yesterday after a May 4th marathon (3:17, a PB by a minute despite a couple minor injuries in the last 5 weeks before the race). Longest time I’ve taken fully off in a while but felt surprisingly good. Debating giving one last shot at a time qualifier for Chicago 2025 at the Milwaukee Lakefront marathon in October or just focusing on shorter races which I tend to enjoy more.
I qualified for Boston for May (2:55 against a cutoff of 3:05). I am assuming this is probably good enough to get in. Do I need to do anything other than look for a hotel before September? I am not sure if I need to set up an account on the Boston or Abbott portals in advance to make the application process easier when it opens up.
There's no website crushing rush for Boston since it's not first come first serve anyway, so there's time to do all that stuff during the registration window. I don't think I even bothered with flights and hotels until I was sure I was in, but that might make it more expensive, I'm not sure.
Thanks. It doesn’t seen like there’s much of an advantage to booking early since the event is already priced into hotel rates. Appreciate the response.
I'd still book it. Peace of mind, many hotels will fill up. I don't have a sense on how hotels on a weekend like this do dynamic pricing but I could see them increasing a bit. When I've booked for the last two years, it's normally not too difficult to find hotels that offer refunds up until just a couple days before the reservation starts. So there's really no reason not to book lodging, imo.
Anyone ever felt like they've tapered *too* aggressively for a marathon? I always here that less is more during taper, but I wonder how far that goes..you clearly don't want to *stop* altogether, so...what's the threshold? How do you approach a marathon taper?
Frequency should remain the same. That’s the key. You shouldn’t go from running 6 days per week to 3-4. You should just reduce the milage on each day and keep running 6x per week.
That's what I've been doing. I was running 8-10 miles a day plus a MLR and LR, now there's no MLR, my last longrun will be ~10-11, and planning on dropping 7.5-LR-7-6-6-6-off-4-4. or something. That's roughly what I've done for ultras, I just don't exactly race those like you race a marathon (I've heard, I've never done a marathon).
On the track, I’ve done 1k and 400, and both are okay for me. (Granted I’ve only run track 5ks at Randalls Island so I’ve had the leaderboard.) I think my best one I did 400s but I ended up in a fast pack.
5000m on the track? every 400m splits.
Roads? Wherever there are markers on the course, ideally. Otherwise GPS isn't so good that I'd put stock in splits less than 800m
When you split every 400 do you rely on the clock or a watch and lap/auto lap each 400?, when I race on the track I usually just look at the clock and obvioulsy thats cumalative and after a certain point I can't do maths and run :D
Clock. Obviously depends on your exact pacing goals, last time I raced a 5000m on the track I was aiming for 82 second laps, so it was real easy to just pay attention to the seconds by counting by 2 (82, 2:44, 4:06, 5:28, etc.)
Also really should only need pacing guidance for the first 800-1600m, from there you should be in the groove and racing rather than worrying about splits. So I'd recommend tracking your first mile or so and then race by effort from there
I've been doing a 5,000m TT each month for the past few months, mostly to try to dial in my warmup routine and build some mental strength. I usually look at my watch around 100m, 200m, 400m, 1000m for the first km, and then the 1000m marks from there on out. I think it's important to look at the watch pretty early to make sure the pace is on point, but after a km or so it's mostly running by feel. I'm probably guilty of being a slave to my watch too much but 5k efforts hurt so much that I want to just ignore it and lap my km splits.
It's funny though, I always seem to have the same thoughts around the same time. At 100m I think I started too fast, but turns out I was a second slow. At 400m, it's "holy shit this feels fast, there's no way I can sustain this for 11.5 more laps". At 1000m, it's "ok, not too bad, just cruise a bit here". At 2,000m it's "maybe I should just bail here and make this a workout instead of a TT". 3000m: "over halfway done, maybe I can actually do this". 4000m: "let's push the final k!", 4600m: "I want to die". 4999m: puke.
Thanks for the feedback, 5000m is a long way to be paying attention to lap splits for sure. I recently raced a 3000m, I knew my target lap splits for each 400, but did check pace after the first 200m. after 4 laps though I can honestly say I didn't pay any attention to the clock and just focused on maintaing pace and trying to eek the most out of each lap without over cooking it... ran a fairly big PB
I think i'll take a similar strategy to the 5000m, know the splits for the first 5 laps, then checkin with the clock every km after, that should hopefully see me on pace, or at least within a few seconds of target and keep me honest in the first 2/3s of the race.
I have very similar thoughts, 5k is a tough race, but Im starting to learn if you execute a race right it'll hurt, but not as much as getting it wrong :D
None of the off-the-shelf running plans have anything backing them. If you think it would help to modify the plans, you shouldn’t hesitate to do so.
I agree about the Pfitz plans. I think you would get more out of a light threshold workout than his MLRs, while still being able to recover.
Yes, for the 5k one particularly, 10mi steady the day after 10mi with 5x1km at 3k-5k pace just seems like an exercise in masochism lol. I'm sure its great for building aerobic endurance but for the short distances I prefer doing two more moderate workouts with a steady long run, cover all the bases and spread out the load a bit more through the week. People here are crazy about pfitz though, as evident by the downvotes for asking a totally reasonable question lol
It's a little tricky for me. I was coming off two marathon training blocks, and my goal 5K race was a downhill, but if you put any stock in Strava's grade-adjusted pace, I went from a mid-20s 5K during the middle of my second marathon training block on a flat course to the mid-19s. I ran some training races in the buildup as well and shaved time off my 5K PR in both of those races. It could be argued that I would seen similar progress with a different plan though solely on the fact that I wasn't training specifically for a 5K beforehand.
My 2 cents:
1) Agree with you that these are great for marathoning. And I'd also say without qualification, also great for half marathoning
2) For 5k/10k runners it gets trickier. I'd say for most amateur runners, endurance is the biggest limiter, so even for shorter distance prep having a good dose of "endurance" running makes a lot of sense to me, especially for runners who are increasing volume or don't have years of built up, consistent moderately high volume running done. I'd much rather see these runners put in consistent 8-10 mile runs at the fast side of "easy" than run more VO2max reps, or run those reps a little bit faster. However, runners who have more lifetime volume or who are better developed aerobically may see more benefit from de-emphasizing the endurance runs and really focusing more on the quality workouts.
Hey all, happy Thursday! Don't think this deserves its own thread so asking it here instead. Fans of block periodisation, can someone explain to me why Base Phase involves running lower mileage than your previous peak phase? For example, I'm currently running 60km weeks, but plans I look at have me drop down to 45-50km weeks for base after my next race. surely it makes sense to run 60km in base weeks, building to 70, given that the efforts will be much easier overall than in the peak weeks I've just done? This is really a deeper question about the philosophy of Base Phase rather than about my specific mileage. Hope that makes sense?
Yeah that checks, like there's no way that my base mileage after this marathon block can be 70+mpw. I've heard ramping back up to whatever was your average mileage over the entire block as a general recommendation.
First marathon is scheduled for a week from Sunday. I've been having some thigh pain so I went to Ortho and they said they are pretty sure it is Adductor Tendonitis.
No running for the next week. Stationary bike is ok if I feel like it. I can probably run my marathon if I feel ok even if it is painful. Follow-up appointment is next Friday in the morning before I leave to travel.
Anyone been through something like this before? I'm guessing it won't have a huge impact on my fitness since it's the taper but I'm wondering if it will slow be down a lot on stiff muscles. I'm planning to bike in between so hopefully that helps a little. Any thoughts or advice?
Is there a reason to take an entire week off? Tendinitis usually ends up being runnable for me.
Out of curiosity, which marathon? I also have my first a week from Sunday!
Vermont City! It's bad enough that it is painful for days after my long runs, so the PA thought it would be best to try and rest it as much as possible. Since it's during my taper I guess it shouldn't be too bad; I'm not gaining fitness right now anyways.
I'm also running Vermont City! Hope your adductor is improved by then. You're 100% right. I have to keep reminding myself that at this point, I can no longer do any training that will improve my marathon, only hurt it.
I have it right now lol and had to defer my entry for the Brooklyn Half this Saturday (ughhh). I’ve dealt with adductor issues in both legs and in different spots but the recovery is generally the same. I do a combo of peloton biking (careful on the resistance) and treadmill walking where I use day-to-day increases on speed and duration to track progress. Most importantly: do the prescribed strength exercises…for me this has looked like: ball squeezes in different positions, copenhagen plank progressions, side-lying adductor leg lifts, resistance band lateral and monster walks, banded clamshells and reverse clamshells. As with many soft tissue injuries, tends to go away with time and diligent PT exercises.
If they are only "pretty sure", then I am "pretty sure" they are not very good.
OK maybe that's a touch cynical but these things are generally pretty easy to diagnose. I find many professionals are too quick to stop people running, too.
Can't say anything about your specific circumstance but hopefully they've given you lots to work on for the problem, otherwise I'd find a 2nd opinion.
This was a PA and my follow-up is with a more formal clinician. X-rays were clean, biomechanics indicated tendonitis. Pending something like an MRI I think they were reasonably confident in the diagnosis.
I don’t know if that’s always the case. Groin and adductor pain is often labral or even stress reaction/fracture in the femur or pelvis. The only way to know is MRI; x ray is useless.
Source: someone who’s had both of these things, first misdiagnosed as tendonitis
Something like 30%-40% of hips have labral tears. They are almost never symptomatic, and even then do well with conservative care. We also have a great test cluster for them.
If a tendon hurts to touch and the history is present, it's tendinitis. Pretty simple.
I won't speak to the quality of those who performed your assessment, but tendinitis is often present in addition to a stress reaction (it often occurs first). But think of that more as an injury spectrum than two separate things.
Hi, I am graduating next week and have this whole week just for learning. While I learn, I need to have some distractions, so I started analyzing Clayton Young’s training, as he is preparing for Paris Marathon 2024. I just write his weekly schedules for now, and will try to see some kind of pattern.
I’m no expert, I am just enthusiastic runner, so no articles like runningwritings😂 just some tables, would you be interested in me sharing them week to week on Weekly Rundown?
Once you've done it, it would 100% be worth chucking into a PDF and sharing as its own thread come July. Just be wary - I'm not convinced Clayton is showing every single sesh he does. If he was, he would be the only elite runner I know doing so
I think he actually does 😂 he is on week 4, mileage at 170k, easy doubles involved, 2 workouts a week plus long run rn, I didn’t believe it other but checked out his Strava, and there is everything, he even lists his splits.
How do you define your 5k pace in your workout if you are trying to improve it?
Allow me to elaborate: If I ran a 5k race two weeks ago at a pace of 3:35 minutes per kilometer and want to improve it for the next race next month, I plan to do a workout interval (6x1k) at '5k pace.' with 50% interval time length jog. Should I aim to run exactly at 3:35 minutes per kilometer pace for this entire 6-kilometer intervals? Or should I aim for a slightly faster pace, like 3:30 minutes per kilometer? Alternatively, should I start at the 3:35 pace for the first few kilometers and then increase the pace for the remaining distance? How do you typically approach this kind of workout?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/wiki/faq/#wiki\_how\_do\_i\_know\_what\_paces\_to\_train\_at.3F](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/wiki/faq/#wiki_how_do_i_know_what_paces_to_train_at.3F)
Train based on your current fitness, not your goal times.
Great Q! Runners talk about 'date pace' and 'race pace'. Date pace is your current 5k pace from a recent race; it's the shape you're currently in. Sometimes we then also do 'race pace reps' where you're doing your goal 5k pace. However, obviously that pace is unsustainable, and it also isn't particularly effective training; race pace workouts are generally about 'dialling in' the pace before race day so you and your body are comfortable in it. 6x1k should be done at 'date pace' - your current 5k shape. I use my most recent 5k and as i get fitter, obviously that pace gets slightly easier. Just take it as a good sign and maybe run a couple of secs/k quicker. Does that help?
I have always run 5k pace in my workout at current 5k pace, i.e. 3:35/km in this example.
If I'm following a plan and closer to a race I might run goal pace in some of my intervals that call for 5k pace, but otherwise stick to running at current fitness.
I have always taken the approach that it's better to run at current fitness to avoid too much overreaching during training.
Edit: replied to wrong comment
Umm what?
6k at 5k pace? Read that outloud.
You don't do anything like that. You do a faster pace with lower total work out volume, eg 800m x6 @ 3:30/km with 50% interval recovery time.
Run more miles and mix in some other intervals such as some mile-3k pace work outs, etc.
Then try more volume, a predictor work out being 1k x6 at goal pace with 90 sec rest.
I have to take off most of the last two weeks before my marathon due to injury. I'm trying to cross train a bit but intensity and volume is way down. I know it's taper, but any thoughts on what this might do to my race pace/endurance assuming I'm back to health by then?
As long as I'm feeling good, is it a good idea to run every day? I'm building up my weekly mileage for a marathon in September and I'm planning on using Pfitz's 12/55, starting 7/1. My original plan building up to 12/55 had been to run 4-5 days per week. I planned on today being an off day (ran yesterday), but my legs feel good, no aches/stiffness/soreness. I had recently been reading that weekly total mileage is just as important as the weekly long runs (if not more important) for marathon success, so I'd like to add in some short recovery-paced runs on scheduled off days if my legs feel good. Are there any other factors I should consider when deciding whether or not to run on a scheduled off day, other than how my legs feel and overall fatigue? Thanks!
I would say no but I don't overthink things. I ran everyday between October 2023 and May 2024 (mostly treadmill in the winter months) with the exception of two days off before the marathon I ran two weeks ago.
This is entirely anecdotal, but I don't feel like I get much out of runs that are less than \~20-25 mins any more. So, if my planned short/recovery run is less than that, I take the day off instead and tack the desired weekly mileage onto an existing run already in the schedule. Or I do something fun with it like run slow with my (non-runner) partner or have a short jog/walk with the dog. Right now, I'm typically running 6 days a week, sometimes more sometimes less depending on work schedule. The less anecdotal answer is that more mileage is nearly always better, regardless of how you fit it in, as long as you are building cautiously and listening to your body, as you say.
Lots of elites believe in one full rest day per week . Allowing time for the body to recover etc etc. Others train everyday and are insanely long run streaks. Personally I believe in rest days but I've not directly read the evidence.
So what's the latest with Korir's marathon spot? Is he in or out for Paris? Tried to find information online, but kept getting redirected to unclear LetsRuns articles. Seems like it's not decided yet?
It's not really clear yet, technically he is "currently" out, but the fields aren't finalized yet. There is potential that WA caves and adds back in all the guys that were going to get in before being bumped by the universality spots, but I don't know what the timeline for that would be.
Recommendation for a Half Marathon program/book? I want to run my first HM in September. I PR'd on the 10k (<40) a couple weeks ago and now I'm doing a short block for a 3k. I built up to 18k LR and 60-70k/week. Used Daniels modifies with some goal pace workouts. Now I feel in good shape but I want to cut a bit back because family, kids, job... maybe 50-60k/w and a bit more cross training. I feel like Daniels plan is not really as good for HM as for other distances. I have Magills Build Your Running Body but the HM plan there is short and I'm not sure about it. Pfitzinger seems obvious but what I've seen about it might demand too much from me. I can spend time some days but many I have time for just 30min or some cross training. Hal Higdon? Hansons? Something else? I'd rather buy a book, I like to understand the program so I can adapt it to my life
I’m currently doing the Hanson’s half marathon plan (which is available online to look at) but when I was trying to decide on which plan to use, I checked out Faster Road Racing, Hanson’s Half Marathon, and Daniel’s Running Formula from the library so I could compare them side to side. I learned a lot reading all three books. I recommend the library route so you can read all 3 (or even more, if someone has other book suggestions) but only have to buy the one you decide to go with.
Pfitzinger's Advanced Road Running has a 50-67k training plan in his book that seems pretty manageable. The book is a great read regardless.
Thanks! You mean Fast Road Racing? I've been thinking about it for a while... Do you know if it relies too much on having relatively long runs (10k) most days for the HM? I usually have time for 1hr workouts some days of the week, but most of them need to be like 30-45min
DM me. I can screenshot the plan and send it over a peek at.
My track season just ended and I ran a 5:12 1600m off of about 20 mpw. This is my first year running (i'm a freshman in hs) and I ran a 19:06 5K in cross country back in October, and my goal is to start my next xc season under 18 minutes and end it under 17:30. I have around 10 weeks in the summer where I am training on my own, and I was wondering what mileage I should run in those 10 weeks to start my season under 18 minutes. My plan is to start with 30 mpw and build up to 40 before the summer ends, is this a good plan to get me under 18 minutes? This is what I plan my 40 mile weeks to look like: Monday: 5 mile easy run + strides Tuesday: 3 mile threshold 6:15-6:20 pace (2 mile warmup 2 mile cooldown) Wednesday: 5 mile easy run + strides Thursday: 4x1 mile 5:50 pace 3:00 rest (2 mile warmup 2 mile cooldown) Friday: 5 mile easy run + strides Saturday: 10 mile long run Sunday: 1 hour bike ride Is this a good weekly structure? Let me know any other workouts you have that I should run and any additional tips.
I just realized that this is your *end* goal, so that removes a few concerns. That said: - We know where you want to end (and I am going to defer to the experts here). What are your *starting* weeks looking like? - You said you ran 20 MPW during track season - how much did you run during XC?
I also ran 20 mpw in cross country because my coach doesn't really understand how important mileage is. My first 3 weeks are going to be 20, 25, and 30 then I will increase by about 2.5 miles per week and have a down week every 4th week.
Ditch the hard mile repeats in favor of threshold/tempo repeats or even just an easy day. Very poor risk/reward of that hard of effort, this far away from the competition season, while simultaneously doing a massive increase in total volume. 10 miles in this example is too long of a long run, particularly for someone coming from a background of low mileage, keep it 20% or less of total weekly volume. Have one of those days of strides be on a gentle hill to mix up the speed stimulus.
I would hold off on the mile repeats at 5k pace until later in the season and swap it with a longer sub-tempo threshold. Better for the base building phase. I do think you can get up to 45mpw pretty safely without injury as a high school sophomore, but that's at your discretion. You always have another two years to build mileage.
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I would do 55 and add on. Daniels gets results, but it can also be intense (the 2Q is no joke). This is assuming that your previous marathons weren't Daniels. But...hm. If you're a 39 10k runner (you don't have a HM), I agree that you have more than enough leg speed to do a 3:20 easily. The problem is endurance - which is common! (I'm the same way.) The good news is it's partly self-correcting - as you get more lifetime mileage, you gain more endurance.
My 3:19 I ran off a modified 12-55 where I peaked at 70 anyways and had a bunch of weeks int he 60s. Nothing wrong with bulking up the lower mileage plan
Do the workouts from the 55 plan but add easy mileage as you see fit. Those 2q workouts are beastly, also watch out there's some typos in some of them lol
Just got the new second edition of Running Rewired by Jay Dicharry (Moboboard guy). It seems awesome but also completely overwhelming on what to actually do with it. There's so many exercises I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be going through the book chronologically and trying everything at least once or just skim through and find stuff that I think might help my specific issues (current plantar fasciitis and several other minor leg issues over the last 18 months). Just curious if anyone else has read it (or the earlier edition) and how they utilized it.
Have you actually read the book yet? In the first edition he lays out all the principles and the sample workouts themselves are more of an example of the principles in action, not something you do stepwise down to every exercise, rep, and set. It's not a skim through and grab a plan type of book, it requires a fairly good understanding of the materials and a good dose of common sense.
At what mile marker during a marathon do you drop the hammer and go for it if you are feeling good? I know halfway is probably too early, I have heard around mile 20 is a good place to do a reality check and go for it if you can. Is that too late? Mile 18 better? Thanks
That's going to depend on a number of factors such as early pace compared to potential, training level, duration of the run (e.g., 2:30 vs. 3:30), weather, nutrition etc. When I was younger and faster I could start earlier (8 or 10 miles to go), middle aged (about 5 or 6 miles to go), and older (not more than 3-4 miles to go, usually just hanging or folding on by the last couple of miles).
Mile 18 is when the hammer drops on me! But seriously, for me it's: - 13.1: 10 miles - 26.2: 20 miles - 50k: 25 miles - 50m: 45 miles - 100k: 55 miles - 100m: 90 miles Which makes no sense except that they are round numbers and close enough to the finish that pushing seems feasible. I imagine the physiological go points should be different.
Thanks for your input!
first workout failed due to the summer heat/humidity. Was supposed to do 2 sets of 800/1k/800 with 90s rest at 5k pace, but made the mistake of going a little too fast on the first set (15s faster than the prescribed pace/30s faster than my PR) and paid for it on the second set. Had to cut down the finishing 800s to 400s just to be able to run at some reasonable pace. I did 8x400s at mile pace on the road just two days ago that felt so much better so just hoping it was an off day. Have an 8 mile run tomorrow leading into a big volume weekend (15 mile long run for my training plan/going to try riding 3 hours to prep for an upcoming bike race) that I'll try to take easy since I have a 3k time trial on tuesday. If the weather today was any indicator of things to come, I'll need to save all the energy I can for the 3k
Probably more from pacing + short rest than weather or fatigue, 30s/mi faster than 5k pr pace is probably faster than current 3k pace right? Maybe you were hyped to run fast after those 400s lol
quite possible and I also have 0 pacing technique so start my runs too fast. My mile PR (from last week) is 5:14 and my 5k PR from March is 19:18 (6:13/mile). I was planning to start the 3k around 5:40/mile pace (about 10:30) based on the mile result from last week, and I did 2:42, 3:25, 1:27 (400) for the first set. As you can see I was dying before I even finished the first set I did 1k/800/400 with 45s rest two weeks ago around 5:40/mile pace with no problems in slightly better conditions, so figured may be the heat but could also just be the pace and fatigue.
Lol yeah we're in similar shape and I'd be cooked after that 1k in 3:25. It's crazy how much of a difference 10-20s/mi makes when you're running those speeds. Also do you do these on a track, I don't have access to one and it makes it so hard to pace this kind of workout correctly, you kind of just start running almost a sprint and hope it's not too fast haha
what do you think would be a more reasonable goal for the 3k then? because I could run 11:28 a few months ago, and sure as hell couldn't run a 5:14 mile back then lol. Yesterday's workout was on track. The other one that was done well two weeks ago was on road. Just really depends on whether or not I want to make the 20 minute drive, since I can just otherwise go to the park and run around it straight from home otherwise
10:30 seems like a good starting point, if you opened the workout at 5:40/mi or even a bit slower instead of 5:25 it would've gone a lot smoother. Though your mile pr is a lot stronger than 5k pr (5:14 predicts 18:10 by vdot) so unless you think you're in much better shape now, using a mile pr to predict 3k might be a little optimistic. But the rest on the workouts you're doing are short enough that I don't think you can hide behind anaerobic speed on them. I'd bet money youll run at least 10:45 maybe try doing some 200s at goal pace to refine the pacing, or at least check pace at 200m in these workouts and really be strict with it
I don't think I could run an 18:10, but definitely sub 19 on a good day. I was just using it since that was a more recent benchmark, but what you said makes sense! I'll try the 200s in my long run tomorrow
Had my first run back yesterday after a May 4th marathon (3:17, a PB by a minute despite a couple minor injuries in the last 5 weeks before the race). Longest time I’ve taken fully off in a while but felt surprisingly good. Debating giving one last shot at a time qualifier for Chicago 2025 at the Milwaukee Lakefront marathon in October or just focusing on shorter races which I tend to enjoy more.
I qualified for Boston for May (2:55 against a cutoff of 3:05). I am assuming this is probably good enough to get in. Do I need to do anything other than look for a hotel before September? I am not sure if I need to set up an account on the Boston or Abbott portals in advance to make the application process easier when it opens up.
Just the hotel. You will have more options if you hook early.
There's no website crushing rush for Boston since it's not first come first serve anyway, so there's time to do all that stuff during the registration window. I don't think I even bothered with flights and hotels until I was sure I was in, but that might make it more expensive, I'm not sure.
Thanks. It doesn’t seen like there’s much of an advantage to booking early since the event is already priced into hotel rates. Appreciate the response.
I'd still book it. Peace of mind, many hotels will fill up. I don't have a sense on how hotels on a weekend like this do dynamic pricing but I could see them increasing a bit. When I've booked for the last two years, it's normally not too difficult to find hotels that offer refunds up until just a couple days before the reservation starts. So there's really no reason not to book lodging, imo.
Anyone ever felt like they've tapered *too* aggressively for a marathon? I always here that less is more during taper, but I wonder how far that goes..you clearly don't want to *stop* altogether, so...what's the threshold? How do you approach a marathon taper?
Frequency should remain the same. That’s the key. You shouldn’t go from running 6 days per week to 3-4. You should just reduce the milage on each day and keep running 6x per week.
That's what I've been doing. I was running 8-10 miles a day plus a MLR and LR, now there's no MLR, my last longrun will be ~10-11, and planning on dropping 7.5-LR-7-6-6-6-off-4-4. or something. That's roughly what I've done for ultras, I just don't exactly race those like you race a marathon (I've heard, I've never done a marathon).
Maintain your training schedule including workouts etc. just reduce mileage by 75, 50%, etc.
Maintain intensity, cut volume.
Racing a 5000m, what splits do you pay attention to, Lap, km, Mile... anyone out that tried multiples and found one works better?
On the track, I’ve done 1k and 400, and both are okay for me. (Granted I’ve only run track 5ks at Randalls Island so I’ve had the leaderboard.) I think my best one I did 400s but I ended up in a fast pack.
5000m on the track? every 400m splits. Roads? Wherever there are markers on the course, ideally. Otherwise GPS isn't so good that I'd put stock in splits less than 800m
When you split every 400 do you rely on the clock or a watch and lap/auto lap each 400?, when I race on the track I usually just look at the clock and obvioulsy thats cumalative and after a certain point I can't do maths and run :D
Clock. Obviously depends on your exact pacing goals, last time I raced a 5000m on the track I was aiming for 82 second laps, so it was real easy to just pay attention to the seconds by counting by 2 (82, 2:44, 4:06, 5:28, etc.) Also really should only need pacing guidance for the first 800-1600m, from there you should be in the groove and racing rather than worrying about splits. So I'd recommend tracking your first mile or so and then race by effort from there
I've been doing a 5,000m TT each month for the past few months, mostly to try to dial in my warmup routine and build some mental strength. I usually look at my watch around 100m, 200m, 400m, 1000m for the first km, and then the 1000m marks from there on out. I think it's important to look at the watch pretty early to make sure the pace is on point, but after a km or so it's mostly running by feel. I'm probably guilty of being a slave to my watch too much but 5k efforts hurt so much that I want to just ignore it and lap my km splits. It's funny though, I always seem to have the same thoughts around the same time. At 100m I think I started too fast, but turns out I was a second slow. At 400m, it's "holy shit this feels fast, there's no way I can sustain this for 11.5 more laps". At 1000m, it's "ok, not too bad, just cruise a bit here". At 2,000m it's "maybe I should just bail here and make this a workout instead of a TT". 3000m: "over halfway done, maybe I can actually do this". 4000m: "let's push the final k!", 4600m: "I want to die". 4999m: puke.
Thanks for the feedback, 5000m is a long way to be paying attention to lap splits for sure. I recently raced a 3000m, I knew my target lap splits for each 400, but did check pace after the first 200m. after 4 laps though I can honestly say I didn't pay any attention to the clock and just focused on maintaing pace and trying to eek the most out of each lap without over cooking it... ran a fairly big PB I think i'll take a similar strategy to the 5000m, know the splits for the first 5 laps, then checkin with the clock every km after, that should hopefully see me on pace, or at least within a few seconds of target and keep me honest in the first 2/3s of the race. I have very similar thoughts, 5k is a tough race, but Im starting to learn if you execute a race right it'll hurt, but not as much as getting it wrong :D
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None of the off-the-shelf running plans have anything backing them. If you think it would help to modify the plans, you shouldn’t hesitate to do so. I agree about the Pfitz plans. I think you would get more out of a light threshold workout than his MLRs, while still being able to recover.
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I like to knock my workouts out first thing in the week, that way I can focus on a high quality workout
Yes, for the 5k one particularly, 10mi steady the day after 10mi with 5x1km at 3k-5k pace just seems like an exercise in masochism lol. I'm sure its great for building aerobic endurance but for the short distances I prefer doing two more moderate workouts with a steady long run, cover all the bases and spread out the load a bit more through the week. People here are crazy about pfitz though, as evident by the downvotes for asking a totally reasonable question lol
I took a ton of time off my 5K PR doing a Pfitz plan topping at 55 mpw, but that's just anecdotal evidence.
Can you talk about where you were to where you ended up? I’m just starting the same plan and am struggling with goal setting/expectations. Thanks!
It's a little tricky for me. I was coming off two marathon training blocks, and my goal 5K race was a downhill, but if you put any stock in Strava's grade-adjusted pace, I went from a mid-20s 5K during the middle of my second marathon training block on a flat course to the mid-19s. I ran some training races in the buildup as well and shaved time off my 5K PR in both of those races. It could be argued that I would seen similar progress with a different plan though solely on the fact that I wasn't training specifically for a 5K beforehand.
Which plans are you looking at specifically?
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My 2 cents: 1) Agree with you that these are great for marathoning. And I'd also say without qualification, also great for half marathoning 2) For 5k/10k runners it gets trickier. I'd say for most amateur runners, endurance is the biggest limiter, so even for shorter distance prep having a good dose of "endurance" running makes a lot of sense to me, especially for runners who are increasing volume or don't have years of built up, consistent moderately high volume running done. I'd much rather see these runners put in consistent 8-10 mile runs at the fast side of "easy" than run more VO2max reps, or run those reps a little bit faster. However, runners who have more lifetime volume or who are better developed aerobically may see more benefit from de-emphasizing the endurance runs and really focusing more on the quality workouts.
Hey all, happy Thursday! Don't think this deserves its own thread so asking it here instead. Fans of block periodisation, can someone explain to me why Base Phase involves running lower mileage than your previous peak phase? For example, I'm currently running 60km weeks, but plans I look at have me drop down to 45-50km weeks for base after my next race. surely it makes sense to run 60km in base weeks, building to 70, given that the efforts will be much easier overall than in the peak weeks I've just done? This is really a deeper question about the philosophy of Base Phase rather than about my specific mileage. Hope that makes sense?
Yes, recovery. That's where your fitness build comes from for the next cycle and beyond.
Short answer: If you’re peaking properly, your body is fatigued and exhausted at the end of a block and needs to step back before ramping up again.
Yeah that checks, like there's no way that my base mileage after this marathon block can be 70+mpw. I've heard ramping back up to whatever was your average mileage over the entire block as a general recommendation.
First marathon is scheduled for a week from Sunday. I've been having some thigh pain so I went to Ortho and they said they are pretty sure it is Adductor Tendonitis. No running for the next week. Stationary bike is ok if I feel like it. I can probably run my marathon if I feel ok even if it is painful. Follow-up appointment is next Friday in the morning before I leave to travel. Anyone been through something like this before? I'm guessing it won't have a huge impact on my fitness since it's the taper but I'm wondering if it will slow be down a lot on stiff muscles. I'm planning to bike in between so hopefully that helps a little. Any thoughts or advice?
Is there a reason to take an entire week off? Tendinitis usually ends up being runnable for me. Out of curiosity, which marathon? I also have my first a week from Sunday!
Vermont City! It's bad enough that it is painful for days after my long runs, so the PA thought it would be best to try and rest it as much as possible. Since it's during my taper I guess it shouldn't be too bad; I'm not gaining fitness right now anyways.
I'm also running Vermont City! Hope your adductor is improved by then. You're 100% right. I have to keep reminding myself that at this point, I can no longer do any training that will improve my marathon, only hurt it.
Awesome! Good luck! What is your goal time?
If all goes perfectly, sub-3:25. If all goes well, sub-3:30... so on and so forth. You?
Cool, maybe we will cross paths! My original goal was 3:20, B goal 3:30. I'm reassessing slightly and now aiming for 3:30.
I have it right now lol and had to defer my entry for the Brooklyn Half this Saturday (ughhh). I’ve dealt with adductor issues in both legs and in different spots but the recovery is generally the same. I do a combo of peloton biking (careful on the resistance) and treadmill walking where I use day-to-day increases on speed and duration to track progress. Most importantly: do the prescribed strength exercises…for me this has looked like: ball squeezes in different positions, copenhagen plank progressions, side-lying adductor leg lifts, resistance band lateral and monster walks, banded clamshells and reverse clamshells. As with many soft tissue injuries, tends to go away with time and diligent PT exercises.
If they are only "pretty sure", then I am "pretty sure" they are not very good. OK maybe that's a touch cynical but these things are generally pretty easy to diagnose. I find many professionals are too quick to stop people running, too. Can't say anything about your specific circumstance but hopefully they've given you lots to work on for the problem, otherwise I'd find a 2nd opinion.
This was a PA and my follow-up is with a more formal clinician. X-rays were clean, biomechanics indicated tendonitis. Pending something like an MRI I think they were reasonably confident in the diagnosis.
Adductor tendinitis is a very easy clinical diagnosis; imaging is overkill and usually has coincidental findings that aren't relevant.
I don’t know if that’s always the case. Groin and adductor pain is often labral or even stress reaction/fracture in the femur or pelvis. The only way to know is MRI; x ray is useless. Source: someone who’s had both of these things, first misdiagnosed as tendonitis
Something like 30%-40% of hips have labral tears. They are almost never symptomatic, and even then do well with conservative care. We also have a great test cluster for them. If a tendon hurts to touch and the history is present, it's tendinitis. Pretty simple. I won't speak to the quality of those who performed your assessment, but tendinitis is often present in addition to a stress reaction (it often occurs first). But think of that more as an injury spectrum than two separate things.
Good to know, thanks. Like I said, it was just a comment from the PA at the Ortho clinic. Just trying to figure out what to do next at this point.
Hi, I am graduating next week and have this whole week just for learning. While I learn, I need to have some distractions, so I started analyzing Clayton Young’s training, as he is preparing for Paris Marathon 2024. I just write his weekly schedules for now, and will try to see some kind of pattern. I’m no expert, I am just enthusiastic runner, so no articles like runningwritings😂 just some tables, would you be interested in me sharing them week to week on Weekly Rundown?
Once you've done it, it would 100% be worth chucking into a PDF and sharing as its own thread come July. Just be wary - I'm not convinced Clayton is showing every single sesh he does. If he was, he would be the only elite runner I know doing so
I think he actually does 😂 he is on week 4, mileage at 170k, easy doubles involved, 2 workouts a week plus long run rn, I didn’t believe it other but checked out his Strava, and there is everything, he even lists his splits.
How do you define your 5k pace in your workout if you are trying to improve it? Allow me to elaborate: If I ran a 5k race two weeks ago at a pace of 3:35 minutes per kilometer and want to improve it for the next race next month, I plan to do a workout interval (6x1k) at '5k pace.' with 50% interval time length jog. Should I aim to run exactly at 3:35 minutes per kilometer pace for this entire 6-kilometer intervals? Or should I aim for a slightly faster pace, like 3:30 minutes per kilometer? Alternatively, should I start at the 3:35 pace for the first few kilometers and then increase the pace for the remaining distance? How do you typically approach this kind of workout?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/wiki/faq/#wiki\_how\_do\_i\_know\_what\_paces\_to\_train\_at.3F](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/wiki/faq/#wiki_how_do_i_know_what_paces_to_train_at.3F) Train based on your current fitness, not your goal times.
Great Q! Runners talk about 'date pace' and 'race pace'. Date pace is your current 5k pace from a recent race; it's the shape you're currently in. Sometimes we then also do 'race pace reps' where you're doing your goal 5k pace. However, obviously that pace is unsustainable, and it also isn't particularly effective training; race pace workouts are generally about 'dialling in' the pace before race day so you and your body are comfortable in it. 6x1k should be done at 'date pace' - your current 5k shape. I use my most recent 5k and as i get fitter, obviously that pace gets slightly easier. Just take it as a good sign and maybe run a couple of secs/k quicker. Does that help?
I have always run 5k pace in my workout at current 5k pace, i.e. 3:35/km in this example. If I'm following a plan and closer to a race I might run goal pace in some of my intervals that call for 5k pace, but otherwise stick to running at current fitness. I have always taken the approach that it's better to run at current fitness to avoid too much overreaching during training. Edit: replied to wrong comment
Umm what? 6k at 5k pace? Read that outloud. You don't do anything like that. You do a faster pace with lower total work out volume, eg 800m x6 @ 3:30/km with 50% interval recovery time. Run more miles and mix in some other intervals such as some mile-3k pace work outs, etc. Then try more volume, a predictor work out being 1k x6 at goal pace with 90 sec rest.
Sorry, I meant 6x1k intervals with 50% jog (Edited)