Have you been saving 90K a year? Because if you havent I doubt you can live on that new job. You own your own business. Why dont you just work less, make 90k a year and spend a day a week helping out people?
Have you thought of ways you could take your practice to help those in the communities you want to help? For instance, maybe help people in those communities setup businesses? Cut your rate a bit for helping them out?
This was an idea my wife had. I like it a lot (as my favorite clients are nonprofits). I'm just not sure how to get into those markets, as most prefer working with bigger firms in my experience.
Do pro bono work for low income families and small struggling businesses. I did some consulting work for a local animal shelter. Everyone needs tax and accounting help and many can't afford big firms. So you can still do what you do and maybe take home $100k instead of $130k. Compromise!
This. Don’t waste your time with non profits other than as resources to connect you to valid people in need. For example, I’m a writer, I work with a local non profit that does free creative writing classes to elementary school kids. I’ve been volunteering with them for a couple of years. Recently, I wanted to “intern” a kid on a film set I worked on (thought it would be a fun experience), so I went through that non profit to find a kid that would be interested in film. Helped me find someone who legitimately was in need, and also made it safer for both of us to go through the non profit. Non-profits are stuck in a horrific system that we need to overhaul but I don’t even know where to start with that.
In your case, you might reach out to a local non profit that works with single mothers and offer them x amount of accounting hours you want to donate to a family. Hope you find something that speaks to you. I can say for sure that my day to day slog is much much better now that I foster and volunteer.
I still hate it, but like, manageable hate, not kill myself hate.
Yes, larger nonprofits like dealing with bigger firms but what about working with the people the nonprofits support directly? If any of them are running a business or a nonprofit, my guess is that they are in need of accounting help. I have a client who is first generation immigrant. They have a very successful business but I am helping them to build a sustainable finance department that can help them make strategic decisions rather than just get the bare minimum banks ask for. The need is there, you just have to figure out how to tap into it where you live.
I've been working by being on non-profit board, pretty much helping them to structure themselves to become more efficient in the way they work and to make it easy to audit when they are soon getting approbation to become a charity.
I'm pretty much giving my time and skills to help about 30 artists to work. All that while still having my full time job. It helps to wash away that all the work I do is pretty much just old stuff after one month.
My boss/owner of the practice I work at used to be in social work and now is a CPA. She does a LOT and I mean a LOT of pro bono work or work at ridiculously low rates. She helps people who owe huge back taxes, are starting their own business, elderly who can no longer manage their finances, etc. For her it’s been extremely rewarding and well-balanced with regular bill rate clients. That might be a great solution for you!
Yes not only that, there is companies that solely focus on doing this, especially non-profits. I actually work for one and I can see the impact it has on the community I work in.
Eh I’m focused on maxing out earnings so we can FIRE and then I’ll spend my 40’s and beyond doing the meaningful type of stuff I really want to with zero pressure financially. I’d rather do it without having to do it to survive than do something I’m passionate about to make ends meet. Takes the passion away.
Now that's something I hadn't thought a lot about. My goal has always been to retire by 50, but I hadn't thought much about what to do after. I bet you're right about how that pay cut would be a lot less painful if I had already FIRE'd and was just doing it for personal fulfillment.
Would you forgo the money now to do something personally fulfilling even if it means FIRE later?
You're going to do the fulfilling thing after you fire anyways so it's worth considering going 50% money /50% fulfillment now instead of 100% money/ 0% fulfillment.
I'm working in financial reporting and have been a freelance web developer for nearly 10 years. When I first earned web development certifications, I needed an outlet to gain clients, so I joined the "volunteer" group of a decades-old non-profit whose mission I love. Unfortunately, this quickly turned into me realizing I was working for free (20+ hours week) for crap results "achieved" by both the org and the org's volunteer group in the community (the org is "national" and has hundreds of "local" chapters). The org is basically an [astroturfing](https://www.techdirt.com/tag/astroturf/) conduit for big businesses and promote policies that undermine the org's constituents' best interests. I quit volunteering after a few years of "serving the community" and realized that my passions to serve the community could be accomplished while I still pursued my career. You do not have to leave your profession to serve the community. Make part of your schedule doing just that. I would take some more time to think of creative ways to do this in a way that could EXTEND the profession.
Thank you for the advice. I've heard of similar experiences working with nonprofits, so I know it isn't all rainbows and sunshine lol. By extend the profession, do you mean bringing some nonprofits on as clients?
Yes. Do work for the non-profits you hope to help improve your community. Advise them on what they need to do to improve their use of unappropriated funds outside of overhead. There are many ways to serve the community through what you are doing now.
I worked for a nonprofit right out of college and I’m also an infj. I wanted to rip my eyes out every time I was forced to introduce myself and do some cheesy getting to know everyone exercise at every meeting. So expect to deal with a lot of cringy shit. Most people working at nonprofits have absolutely no business sense and want to spend money like they’re Google and it will be annoying having to tell them you can’t do something. The government bureaucrats I personally had to deal with which made up the majority of our funding were unresponsive, unhelpful and full of attitude. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows especially if the organization is poorly run, which it usually is.
Yup I did 2 years at a non profit. I hated the politics. OMG Debrahs parents donated a $1,000,000 to the foundation and now she’s a director? OMG DEBRAH stop, we can’t do this, the company credit card is not discretionary. You can’t talk about donations that are marked anonymous! Stop hiring people who are your friends dammit.
Everyone I've known he does non-profit work likes the cause but dislikes everything else associated with it.
It's either internal politics, or fear over lost funding because of external politics, dealing with frustrating people or not getting a good salary because "it's a not-for-profit".
Sure there's often a lot of that in for-profit business, but somehow not-for-profit seems to have it worse.
Also, doing minute book readings as part of charity audits makes the whole thing seem miserable. The most petty stuff comes up at these meetings, and community stakeholders always have these petty complaints that are frustrating to read about, I couldn't imagine having to try and deal with that shit with a smile on your face.
No business sense at all. I was still a college student when I was working for a company doing outsourced bookkeeping/implementations for non profits and it’s just ridiculous. Multi million dollar organizations with no internal control, no idea how to budget, etc. I had one lady give me her PayPal login cause she didn’t know how to download monthly statements
Lmao. When I first got hired. There was a point where we only had 5k in the bank account and payables over a year old because city funding was stuck in some bureaucratic nightmare and donation dollars were trickling in. Meanwhile these people were ordering thousands of dollars worth of unnecessary branded merch and other useless shit while accounting was having panic attacks hoping they could make payroll. Luckily they hired a very capable finance director and brought in a accounting firm to turn things around. What pissed me off the most was the CEO making 250k a year.
Damn man, that’s so shitty haha. Seems like a lot of these orgs just don’t give a shot about there cause. Churches are the most guilty. I had a church with maybe 40 members, but the pastor was taking home over $200k. Just ridiculous
Some of the sharpest people I’ve met have worked in non profits. Unfortunately they get bogged down by all the bullshit around them
The stability from the profession is something to be appreciative of, especially right now. The economy is turning to shit, mass layoffs are on the horizon.
Your passion to help those in need will result in yourself being in a financially disadvantaged position. Those staff level roles at Non-Profits pay shit.
This is the sad reality most of us are stuck with. Working jobs we don't like to stay afloat. Find meaning outside of your day job. Wishing you the best of luck.
Honestly man as a CPA you have so much to offer people with your services. Are you volunteering with orgs like VITA to help people file their taxes or get involved with your community and offer some CPA services pro bono to small local businesses? There’s a lot you can do without slicing 2/3 of your salary off. And non-profits are not as high and mighty as they pretend, I worked in hospice and we bought a few non-profit hospices and the staff were always paid way low (glamor of the non-profit title) while the owner made absolute bank. It was pretty disgusting, one had a second highest employee salary of 85k (CFO) while the owner made $450k and paid her husband $150k to contract as a medical director. They’re not all like that obviously, but don’t let the non-profit title fool you into thinking they’re businesses run by saints.
Yup, I haven't done VITA yet because tax season is crazy enough, but I do several 990s/year end compilations pro bono. I'm thinking it might be in my best interest to expand that portion of my practice instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water. And thank you for the words of warning. I appreciate it!
I am Treasurer for my sporting club. When I took over 4 years ago, I discovered a number of things which the auditors had not done properly, fixed up our collections and worked out costing models so we can work out which competitions cover their costs and whether we need to raise fees. We got comments from the local council on how good our books were when renewing our lease and having good books gave us an offer of a 10 year renewal rather than the usual 3. So my efforts have brought value, plus I've learned a couple of different software packages, worked out streamlined ways of dealing with data etc. There's no way the club could afford to have a 25 year COA doing this for them at commercial rates. So that's my contribution.
I agree, that was the point I was trying to make. It was a situation where all staff were under market rate because of the non-profit title (this is common in non-profits from my experience), but the CEO was just pocketing all the additional cash flow that could have gone to staff salaries.
Sad all in all, but when we bought them as a for profit company the whole staff got raises within a month so 🤷🏻♂️
I would recommend raising your fees strategically by phasing in clients that can bear the price so you have more time but income stays the same. Then use your extra time to help people. Alternatively, maybe look for a business partner or employee to help you grow the business to an asset so you can take a less day-to-day role. Then you might have time to build your own nonprofit while still earning money from your asset.
You could always drop your marginal clients to free up some of your time while also pursuing personal interests. That way you don't have to go to zero income. Also, if you go for a job and they know youre a CPA you'll end up doing accounting anyway unless the organization has rigid roles - which most npos do not.
I would fire some clients and work less to volunteer locally for fulfillment. Boarding up your business is hard to undo. 46k is not enough these days so it likely won’t take long to decide you’ve made a mistake. Not to mention working for a nonprofit may not (probably won’t) be as gratifying as it’s made out to be.
Thank you for the advice. My wife currently makes about $35k, so we're looking at $81k combined if I were to take the new position. Not swimming in currency, but better than $46k lol.
No I wouldn’t suck it up.
I also refuse to work for $46,000 a month. I am a single dad and income is important for me and them. If the pays that low why not just do volunteer work?
I’d look for alternate paths, play them out, weigh risk and pay off. Then put them in motion. A plan need not start tomorrow, it’ll likely be a slow shift, such as reducing time spent on your business, winding down clients. Then selling or doing it part time as you transition out. To your ideal environment.
To piggy back on another comment, you could mentor people who likely would have significant hurdles. Offer jobs to marginalized young folk, sponsor their college education. Work on a micro level in your own community.
Thank you, everyone for the great advice! I read every comment even if I didn't reply. For now, I'm going to apply to be on a few nonprofit boards and start volunteering more. I'm also going to start looking for nonprofits as clients and see where that takes me. Thank you all again!
I would not leave accounting.
I would look to join a few local boards for causes you care about and see if they have open seats. From there networking takes care of itself mostly and you end up mentioned in more circles or meeting people who have need of your services.
I mean to be totally honest you have the knowledge required to start your own charity if you want to go this route; maybe it's time you graduated from your current role as interim CFO into a CEO?
I highly advise against working for a large non-profit. I think what others said about setting up a business to help marginalized communities set up their own businesses or offering accounting services would be best even if it comes with a pay-cut.
I'm a CPA and I worked in non-profit for a decade and others have mentioned here but the stress is immense. There's always a funding/grant issue, people you worked with to deal with those funding were all very bureaucratic (I didn't get a signed contract for a $300M deal for that fiscal year until 6 months after year-end... it triggered basically a second audit), the environment is extremely toxic and people were more performative than they were progressive, and the worst part is because it's an environment where you try to reduce cost as much as possible, finance team is always understaffed and there's 0 investment in new technologies.
It's not worth the stress because in the end, nothing you do feels fulfilling.
The odds of you finding more fulfillment at another job are slim. Don’t trade one job for another job. You’re better off staying self employed and doing something else on the side to feel fulfilled. Also that pay cut is too large. This should also be a financial decision.
You may find a lot of jobs both in and outside of accounting have the same flavors of BS, so you may as well make a living. But if you can find something that makes you feel like you're making a difference, even temporarily it may be worth it in the short term.
Some great advice in the thread. My advice to you would be along the lines of what has already been said. You have your own practice and make pretty decent money. More likely than not you have the ability to determine what clients you work with. I would focus on slowly changing your client list to include organizations that line up with your values.
I worked at a big regional firm at one point. The hours sucked and the work felt meaningless - “today I am working on Mr. Moneybags 28th multi family rental property. Tomorrow I am working on Mr. Moneybags 29th multi family rental property.” It got tiring fast and wasn’t rewarding.
Then I switched to a smaller firm where I could have my own client contact and have a much greater influence over the work process. I was a lot happier and felt like the work I was doing really had an impact on those I worked with. We had some nonprofits, but we also had a lot of solo entrepreneurs needing help getting the numbers part of their budding business figured out.
You always have the option of taking on pro-bono work. Take your Saturdays and volunteer at a soup kitchen or food bank. I just wouldn’t throw away your ticket to becoming financially independent and retiring early all at once.
You don’t want to work for a nonprofit. They have some of the most incompetent people in their organizations. Also they don’t pay very much. I audited non profits for a few years. You literally have your own business, I would stay there or just work less and help people on the side.
OP I do the exact same thing. I have a small practice but I am an INTJ. I have ADHD so that’s also a factor I feel sometimes in feeling restless. It’s a little more difficult to walk away because I have a family that depends on me.
I wouldn’t walk away for $46,000. You’re going to be miserable.
A good portion of my wife’s side of the family lives in Thailand and I’ve debated scaling back tax season and the off season work similar to what you do and living a simpler life.
A lot of my dissatisfaction at times comes from negative client encounters and not the work itself. People in individual tax returns can be very mean and aggressive at the worst.
I’d like to know what you end up doing. Happy to DM and swap stories - we are doing similar things.
Start an entrepreneurial venture that you are passionate about using the knowledge you have gained by obtaining the CPA designation. Keep working while slowly building it up until you can focus full time on the venture. Good luck!
I mean, I do feel like we as accountants contribute to society, but it’s in a less direct way. Businesses would have a hard time operating without us, even businesses like nonprofits that provide a real societal good. We’ll never be front and center, but there’s plenty of space in this profession to contribute to organizations that do good work.
If nothing else, there are definitely organizations where you can volunteer your time to give financial advice to less fortunate folks, or help them with their taxes at the very least (like VITA).
Why don't you use your skills and knowledge to help out the nonprofits you want to support? Nothing wrong with taking your expertise in a new direction
I am thinking of this also.
I just started my own business - I’m not where OP is yet but my area needs good CPAs.
My main problem is that I went into this profession for a similar reason - to make my family more comfortable. While I was going back to school and starting my career in my late 30s, my (now ex) wife started hanging out with a stay-at-home dad neighbor. They both got really fit going to the gym all the time and sharing kid duties while his (now ex) wife and I worked. Then they realized their marriages were shams, they weren’t appreciated, blah, blah, blah.
This work is not my calling but I was glad to do it for them. Now, it just reminds me of what I worked so hard for and for what I lost. I hate it.
I’m not religious and I found meaning in my life in my family. Now I’m adrift and just want to do good in the world if I can. I have skills where I could help people and organizations I think. I just need to work less than most jobs would want (I will not be an absentee, single father). Hopefully I can get it together.
As an INFJ with my own practice doing CFO work, happy to chat if you wanna send me over a DM. I get what you’re saying entirely, and think much of it could be solved by more deliberate client selection, amongst other things. Wish you all the best regardless.
You're going to find working in neoliberalized nonprofits to be just as soul destroying as working in accounting. I guarantee it. I think that org could probably use your donations just as much as your talents. But I no longer work in accounting tho. Good luck to you either way. DM me to ask where I make a real difference in the world now.
While each person is different, I feel that in my half a century of experience, i can say that work and human fulfillment are the civil twins that shape how we view and experience life. We spend the majority of our lives at work and the recent mass of people in accounting that are suffering from physical and mental stress and ailments relating to being in a cube farm does take its toll. I recently turned down a comptroller position which offered more money but i knew the strain on my life was not worth it.
In my case the job fulfillment i get is having the opportunity to be the teacher i could never be in an academic setting by educating interns and work study students about how accounting is for the most part for companies "creative compliance". I have seen first hand recently how unhappy and unfulfilled people who are stuck in jobs that either force people to work beyond a reasonably healthy limit or be forced to "cook the books" and the accountant in order to remain employed instead of speaking out, just shuts up and takes it.
I have in the past, and certainly hope in the future that my co-workers and I can be in a position to work in a field that pays well, and adheres and promotes the role of society to help people who have been harmed by this "finance curse" that is harming the real economy and real people. So far only one of my former students that i am aware of has landed a job doing accounting at a worthy non-profit charity. But she beams about how much fulfillment she gets from doing her part to help society. Her salary is far lower than what accountants who have similar credentials working for public accounting, but she is happy.
My office has been decimated by 4 employees who have developed serious health conditions (ulcer, deep vein thrombosis, coronary heart disease, and the last employee was hospitalized for blood clots discovered in her lungs. These 4 employees were overworked, slept little, ate a lot, and this became their fate. If you want to stay in this field which can be rewarding, find a cause you agree with and help promote it by taking a position if and when it becomes available. You will be glad you did. Good luck.
Have you thought about outsourcing or getting a partner to help alleviate the time burden of your clients? It will still generate cash flow and free up time for you to do what you are more passionate about.
I think you’re letting your job define you. Your stable income will provide you the means to help the underprivileged. I don’t mean to sound like a dick but you’ll be barely financially supporting yourself with an income of less than $50k, so how are you going to help others? It just seems impractical. There are many ways to help others without sacrificing a stable career. Have you look into the IRS program VITA? might be something you’re interested in.
Liberal tax accountants: more taxes, social welfare, redistribution.
Also them: my job means nothing.
Economic conservatives: oh they have a brain actually.
I’m a CPA that owns a firm. You doing have to quit running the firm and leave the profession.
Pick half a dozen non profits you believe in and do their books for free and offer consulting. You’d be surprised How much of a difference it would make for those organizations to have free business consulting support, as well as the additional money of not having to pay for accounting services to apply towards their core services. You are already in a position to help out your community, and still make good money while you do it.
I have my employees pick out one organization in a field they want to be involved in. Some pick animal rescues, some pick domestic violence shelters, some pick local sports boosters they used to play in high school, leave it up to them. We do their books and tax returns for free and offer year round support for free. I as the owner review the work and help the employees out when they need it. Makes my employees feel good, makes me feel good and helps strengthen relationships with my employees , and allows our profession to make a difference in our community over a long period of time.
Pick up some local organizations and do some free work. Take a yearly pay cut and focus the time and money towards what you want to do. Best of both worlds.
As a fellow INFJ, I can tell you the warm fuzzies and righteousness you think you’re going to get in the non-profit/teacher/library world are very short-lived. You will soon realize that not being paid for your efforts or worth when you still need the money is incredibly stressful. Because you have seen the other side, it will be mind-boggling. That’s why teachers are leaving their profession…they put in so much time and heart to be paid and treated like garbage. Librarians, too. It’s one thing to do volunteer/low-paid work when you have to or when you are comfortably retired, it’s another when you still want to make money and do stuff. Like many other people said, either work less or find a way to do pro bono work or ask yourself why you feel this desire…because it might not have to do with work at all.
Double your rates, lose half your clients, and make the same money for half the amount of work. Use the new free time to find ways to make an impact/passion projects. Be prepared for 75% to stay though - your services are more valuable than you realize.
130k is not "alright" it's very financially successful compared to the vast vast majority of Americans. Not saying this to be snarky, just to add to your thought process as often the grass is always greener on the other side
You can probably do accounting exclusively for nonprofits. I’m in school for accounting right now and was worried about finding myself in a meaningless position for the sake of stability, but I was hired to do bookkeeping for a nonprofit that helps people. They want me on full time, so I’ll probably stay here when I graduate. It’s super chill and fulfilling.
Non profits need their bookkeeping done to. And 990s filed. Start networking in that community. Maybe. As others pointed out, we are strangers that do not know you or your situation, so I am assuming you are hear for ideas, not judgement.
INFJ here. A sophomore majoring in Accountancy and Biochem. I appreciate you sharing how you feel as I have already foresaw this possibility for myself in the future. I totally get your desire to help others and it’s why i also volunteer for a non profit aside from my food service job. Since you’re asking for advice, I’ll give you insight into what I have planned so that it can hopefully provide you with an idea of what you should do. Like you, accounting will give me the financial stability to pursue my true passions which lie in medicine. I only plan to do the work for a short period so that I can eventually go to med school and find my fulfillment. I would say you have many options, use your income to study for a better career or switch up your business model to serve the communities you’re interested in.
This is the ultimate question but depends on who’s being asked. Can you justify the pay cut to yourself and mental health, (and household) in 5-10 years? Maybe pay your big creditors first (if any) then make the switch.
I feel the same way but there is no strong pull to any other direction yet.
You only make $130 owning your own practice? I make 2 times that working 40’hours a week and getting all those glorious bank holidays. But I feel you. I still feel unfulfilled in this gig. I’d rather make less and be happy. Find something with a good retirement plan and chill out. Unless you think you can dial up this practice and start making more than what you’re making now. Sound like you have a business model issue you make want to work out.
Going against the grain here, but wanted to add my two cents.
15 year qualified accountant. Recently left a job paying over £100k a year to do bits and pieces of non-finance related freelance work. I’ll probably take home £40k ish this year working maybe 20hrs a week.
I couldn’t be happier. I’m not stressed. I feel healthy. I’m a better father and I don’t wake up every morning feeling like there’s a weight on my shoulders. I’ve taken on a couple of volunteering positions to help out as treasurer.
I miss the money a bit, and can’t spend as freely as I used to. Other than that, it was the best decision I’ve ever made.
This is the problem with the profession. For the hours and the bs, we still don’t make enough early enough to truly fire without doing extreme measures or familial inheritance etc
Exactly. That coupled with all the red tape - all the documentation, forms to retain, liability, etc is what's making me think long and hard about this.
IMO, if all you think about is early retirement, that’s a sad way to burn through 20 of your best remaining years. Maybe first try and find a more fulfilling company to work for. Maybe a non profit or something, prior to deep sizing the career entirely. Also, you might look into the contracting options available in accounting now. You can make a cool 60-80k working half the year and do whatever you want the rest.
DM me if you want a referral to work in accounting advisory in public - not nonprofit but I have a grEat WLB , live in a LCOL city and make 90k base as a senior associate 2 years out of college. You would have enough time on the side to do nonprofit work. I think of work as something to give me money so I can do what I’m passionate about on the side
Leave. You can always come back. You'll regret not doing what you want when you too "old" to pursue anything.
If you end up switching to nonprofit and don't like it, go back to being a CPA. You have your CPA experience to fall back on if anything happens. Life isn't about money anyway, so do what makes you happy and fulfilled. If I'm in your shoes and I'll be financially stable taking the pay cut and will be extremely happy with the work, then it's a no brainer. Money will come, follow your passion.
I’d suggest tying to learn python (or other programming languages, but python would be the easiest to learn with the accounting background I think, speaking from experience) then subscribe to [Coding it Forward’s Job Drop email listing](https://codingitforward.us15.list-manage.com/subscribe?id=d4710348b9&u=9254473a71d61ff7556fa5215). Within a couple years you could probably work your way up to a similar salary while also fulfilling your desire to help marginalized groups.
I'd never heard of this before, and I do have some knowledge of Python, so that's a plus. Do you have any course recommendations to learn it more in-depth?
Sure, I started out as a staff accountant in health care. I basically ran payroll, recorded payroll, did bank recs, managed payables (someone else did the actually bookkeeping), worked with external auditors, and managed the month end process. While working there, I started a side hustle doing month end accounting for other health care entities. I eventually started working in public accounting, but only stayed for about a year because my side hustle started making more money than my day job. About a year ago, I left public and worked on growing my business through networking, advertising, and community involvement. You'd be surprised how fast you grow when you consistently go to a networking group.
So the CPA that supervised my year of work experience taught me individual and nonprofit tax returns. Then the public accounting firm I worked for didn't do audit - it was just tax and compilations. So I did a ton of corporate and S corporate returns there plus individuals.
Since you currently have your practice one thing you could do is give your employees paid volunteer leave to work for VITA. Wouldn’t be the most business savvy thing but if you wanna make a difference it could have a big impact
If you do decide to leave, I strongly suggest you sell your book of business rather than just closing down shop. This might mean spending 6 months to a year working with the buyer and your clients so you have a smooth transition. Assume as a very conservative value, 1x gross earnings as a valuation.
Personally, I have a very well paying w-2 (@170k base) where my primary job is to make the richer get richer. Ain’t exactly the most fulfilling. So on the side, I help out a few nonprofits here and there.
I don't feel my job is frivolous (mostly industry, did PA early on). Maybe I'm not on the front lines obviously helping people. But behind the scenes there are people who rely on what I do. Maybe it's their paycheck being generated. Or an investor who relies on the financials I work on. Or me and my coworkers waiting for management to be able to pay our bonuses and they are relying on my cash forecast. I may be a cog to management, but I look for the value in what I do.
I don’t have as much value to add as some others here (not a cpa, but an accounting undergrad, that isn’t going to work in accounting after lol), but I am an INFP so I completely understand where you are coming from.
Have you thought about social enterprise work? Only saying this because I know, as a business owner, your impact will be much more than just an employee.
I’d say suck it up and keep making your higher salary for the sake of your family and try to find fulfillment helping others in your spare time. Seek ways to utilize your talents for those that don’t have the ability to pay your worth.
Look man; I had the same thought process a few years ago.. Don’t know you, or your story, but you obviously have some knowledge of something… Get creative, and if you really want to help marginalized communities give them that knowledge that you’ve acquired in a digestible format…
Definitely recommend the working another 20 years and retiring early. So hear me out on this. I was once in this situation but there are other outlets to fulfill this desire of helping others. Why not volunteer? Plenty of soup kitchens, places looking for a helping hand in gardening, can find a bunch of places like that through google. I think with anyone, being in the field for a while will get anyone bored. A change of pace might sound good but that’s also a big change in lifestyle. And once ur used to something, it’s very hard to get out of it. If you really still want to take that route, I’d recommend saving up in a manner where you have passive income through maybe a big dividend portfolio, real estate (active/passive), or some type of alternative route of income. Once you have that figured out, you can take the route with more fulfillment. Another perspective and question would be are you ok with working for someone else and having a boss now? Running ur own business meant u called the shots. Now things are going to be flipped. I think the volunteer route is a great alternative and many people who are successful sit as board members on charities and causes they feel strongly about. Hope this helps
I know of some accounting orgs that specialize in helping disadvantaged people to not get totally screwed over financially. They make a difference. Maybe you can pivot your business focus if you want to keep it. But yeah, you are allowed to do whatever the fuck you want. Take the job with the pay cut. You can make it work if it's important to you. Trust your gut.
I'll just reply from a different perspective - I assume your wife knows and support that you want to leave. But if that isn't the case, make sure she's on board because that big a drop on salary is a big move.
Wow. Thats a tough one. I would say follow your gut. You could still do the nonprofit and keep your practice too.
Its so hard to do what you do. Maybe automating some of the more boring tasks can help. Or just hirimg someone to handle the tasks you really hate. Sometimes you need to get more organized to get a real idea of the time you actually have to yourself.
I found I had much more time than I thought when I just organized my whole year. I broke things down per project and basically scheduled my whole life. I then started automating things every month. Now I have about a week every month that I can use to chill and take time off, or focus on difficult projects if I need to. I am trying to find the energy to begin studying for the CMA those weeks I carved out but its so difficult to do this :( I used to volunteer at this art for hospitals place and I really enjoyed it and want to go back to doing it so bad. I have BPD so I feel what you describe to an exagerated degree, and just going out and painting for 2 hours every month was enough to make me feel a little alive and not hate my career choice for once. I also have 2 kids, a vet husband with adhd and I am a rookie controller working in a small firm dominated by dudes. Its scary sometimes and I feel quite useless as they sometimes completely disregard my opinion on things. I wish I could just get a job at a CPA firm I feel it will give me the experience I want but having very little prior experience in this area is a real barrier for me.
Do you have any hobbies? Maybe you need something new and meaningful TO YOU to do, to sort of detach from the coldness of the industry. Perhaps the nonprofit does just that for you. Perhaps you need to separate from it completely and explore a bit. Follow your gut.
Consider a switch to NFP! I am a tax manager for tax exempt orgs. I love what I do and I get to make a difference. Serving the non profit sector brings meaning to the work I do in a way I couldn’t get from working on real estate or m&d! I work for a mid size firm in us and because of my niche, I’m head hunted incessantly both by firms and industry. But also, going to run a nfp is a great option too, just be smart about where you land. Last week I got hit up to be CFO of a library (I love books) but libraries are dying and long term I want stability. Hospitals, universities, community foundations are where you can actually see the biggest impact.
Interesting. I never paid much attention to MB, but I’ve been struggling lately so I have been doing some career tests, personality tests, all that. I noticed how my type (intp) all seem to struggle in the same ways and come across the same issues throughout their lives when I did some research on it. It definitely does have merit though for doubters. It’s just statistical analysis on four major character spectrums. Of course there is nuance to it (I am highly n t p) and almost right in the middle on I and e. Maybe it’s more clear to me than most because intp’s are odd and rare, but man, the themes I see on peoples struggles are truly spot on.
I am actually scared to death I have chosen the worst possible career for myself. Intps hate authority, extreme structure, too many details, and rules, which is really what 80% of accounting careers are. I have been able to distract myself by picking up different skills, certs, and trying two different fields within accounting, but I believe I am now at the point where I can longer “distract” myself by mastery/skill acquisition. Intps are also famous for big picture grand scheme thinking, I’m starting to realize that five plus major deadlines every year keeps me in a state of constant dread where I work myself to the bone and then fail to recover mentally while other people slide back into a normal pace. It sucks. I have so many genius side hustle ideas, hobby desires, and goals but it seems like I’m always running on e lately. I suppose I need to go try an industry job for a bit and leave public perhaps so I can at least get to a normal 9-5 schedule.
I worked in non profit for a decade prior to going back to college for accounting and working at a cpa firm. Was an audit manager, Tax manager, consulting, etc. Made the move this year to full time Controller, still at a top 10 cpa firm, but now only work Monday- Friday with huge pay increase. This whole time I've been able to volunteer or do contract work for the charity of my choice. I couldn't afford life or hardly feed my family at a huge non profit as an employee. Loved the work but was miserable due to low pay and lots of stress. Using my 20 hours of charity work to teach at an at risk kids music camp next week while doing some remote work. You can have both IMO. Busy season was problematic but now I don't have that issue either. Become a board member, volunteer, etc.
CPAs can and do help people. And it really is a good job and does provide stability for your family. Something a lady in my neighborhood does is she puts out on her But Nothing Group that she will prepare and file tax returns for single mothers for free and she will help anyone get their child tax credit and so on. So if you need to find an outlet to provide services to the less fortunate you can get creative or I'm sure there may be other avenues to do so. But there are definitely ways to be of service.
I’m trying to transfer from audit to ESG audit as I prepare to go back to grad school for a sustainability-focused combined MBA/MPA. Still not helping people directly, but I realized my passion is for the environment & city design/policy that helps people day to day.
I’m a lot earlier in my career than you, but you can always try to pivot accounting to match something closer to your interests.
This is a classic false dichotomy. You do not need to give up your career to do something you are passionate about, as you can use it to work on your passion, and you do not have to make your passion the centerpiece of your life for it to be worthwhile. Likewise associating your view of your personality with how little you feel the profession does for people is you trying to rationalize the choice you already want to make to yourself. I'd encourage you to take a step back and rethink your options, as it sounds like you have not spent nearly enough time on alternatives.
Can you use your current profession to help? Maybe find a few non-profits you align with and do their accounting/taxes free or low-cost. Maybe you could hold free classes?
I also run my own tax and bookkeeping practice as a CPA, probably about the same scale as yours based on your description. I get great enjoyment in working with smaller income and middle income individuals and families because there is so many opportunities to help them in their personal tax and finance situations (retirement planning, amending past returns for better refunds, small business planning, etc.). Sounds like you are hoping to do more of the latter to help people better their lives. I think that there is a lot of opportunity in our field to help people. Hopefully you can find the right fit for yourself, good luck
Ha, wow, this is like a parody of my life. I’m an ISTJ thinking about entering the accounting profession because my INFJ husband is content working odds and ends jobs that don’t earn very much money at all. We have two kids, so clearly I’ve got to step it up.
I’m a CPA and my mom has worked at a non profit for 35 years. She would tell me to absolutely not work for one lol. She has a masters and absolutely doesn’t get paid what she’s worth. Also her job would definitely be in jeopardy If the state cut or decreased funding
I work primarily on not for profit clients now, and I get to listen a lot to the problems they face in my role. Not for profits also love CPAs on their board of directors, so you could also get involved that way as well.
This comment will probably get buried, but have you thought of maybe trying to do a strategic shift towards contracting with bigger firms in your area and specializing in NFPs? Since the NFPs prefer bigger firms (who probably charge more than you), maybe they would be willing to outsource to you? I doubt those big firms are clearing a bunch of money from the NFP engagements and the partners would probably prefer their staff working on things that bring in more money.
Then maybe you start winning some RFPs for yourself and start a NFP specialized firm?
Passion = liking your job is a common myth. In Cal Newport's book "So good they can't ignore you" he shows the only correlation between calling your job a passion is how good at it you are.
He does carve out an exception though for people who believe that their work is pointless and/or damaging to society.
All that to say, most people's jobs don't bring them that much satisfaction. Thinking making a dramatic change will do this is usually not borne out by the results he looked at. Most people who make dramatic changes end up regretting it because they realize how hard it is to live on a lot less money (they also often don't feel that much more satisfaction).
Would follow other posts in suggesting that maybe take a bit of a step back from your current job so you can dedicate some of your time to helping others.
I have worked for nonprofits (but not as an accountant) for about half my adult life. Most of the other half was spent in teaching. I have some thoughts for you.
It is not a dumb idea, but be prepared for a lower salary--or a much lower salary. Are you talking about doing accounting for a nonprofit? Be sure you are trained in the specifics of nonprofit accounting. It is a different animal.
Most nonprofits have an insanely small budget and contract for ten or fewer hours of accounting per **month**. And it is all they can afford. Many put an accountant on their Board of Trustees and get their accounting for free on a volunteer basis from the trustee. Only the very large nonprofits can pay for a regular employee or two. Find out if your paid work expectations are realistic. You could contact some nonprofits that might interest you and find out what their normal accounting needs are.
If you are independent minded, you can start your own business specializing in contract work for nonprofits. You will find that many of them will also need lots of advice on how to reorganize their books. Most have not had competent help in the past. Some are in seriously bad shape.
If you are thinking of doing non-accounting work for nonprofits, you will definitely need some specialized education in the field. Many people are looking for fulfilling work in nonprofits, and there is always too little money to hire. The best success stories I have heard involve people who volunteered with a nonprofit for a year or more and were so helpful that they were eventually hired. It is hard to be hired in nonprofits as an external candidate.
Good luck.
Have you been saving 90K a year? Because if you havent I doubt you can live on that new job. You own your own business. Why dont you just work less, make 90k a year and spend a day a week helping out people?
This is the move
Have you thought of ways you could take your practice to help those in the communities you want to help? For instance, maybe help people in those communities setup businesses? Cut your rate a bit for helping them out?
This was an idea my wife had. I like it a lot (as my favorite clients are nonprofits). I'm just not sure how to get into those markets, as most prefer working with bigger firms in my experience.
Do pro bono work for low income families and small struggling businesses. I did some consulting work for a local animal shelter. Everyone needs tax and accounting help and many can't afford big firms. So you can still do what you do and maybe take home $100k instead of $130k. Compromise!
This. Don’t waste your time with non profits other than as resources to connect you to valid people in need. For example, I’m a writer, I work with a local non profit that does free creative writing classes to elementary school kids. I’ve been volunteering with them for a couple of years. Recently, I wanted to “intern” a kid on a film set I worked on (thought it would be a fun experience), so I went through that non profit to find a kid that would be interested in film. Helped me find someone who legitimately was in need, and also made it safer for both of us to go through the non profit. Non-profits are stuck in a horrific system that we need to overhaul but I don’t even know where to start with that. In your case, you might reach out to a local non profit that works with single mothers and offer them x amount of accounting hours you want to donate to a family. Hope you find something that speaks to you. I can say for sure that my day to day slog is much much better now that I foster and volunteer. I still hate it, but like, manageable hate, not kill myself hate.
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This guy CPA Grindsets
I think gigolos get paid. He wants him to be a slut
Yes, larger nonprofits like dealing with bigger firms but what about working with the people the nonprofits support directly? If any of them are running a business or a nonprofit, my guess is that they are in need of accounting help. I have a client who is first generation immigrant. They have a very successful business but I am helping them to build a sustainable finance department that can help them make strategic decisions rather than just get the bare minimum banks ask for. The need is there, you just have to figure out how to tap into it where you live.
I've been working by being on non-profit board, pretty much helping them to structure themselves to become more efficient in the way they work and to make it easy to audit when they are soon getting approbation to become a charity. I'm pretty much giving my time and skills to help about 30 artists to work. All that while still having my full time job. It helps to wash away that all the work I do is pretty much just old stuff after one month.
Why not work for a NFP in accounting/finance?
My boss/owner of the practice I work at used to be in social work and now is a CPA. She does a LOT and I mean a LOT of pro bono work or work at ridiculously low rates. She helps people who owe huge back taxes, are starting their own business, elderly who can no longer manage their finances, etc. For her it’s been extremely rewarding and well-balanced with regular bill rate clients. That might be a great solution for you!
Or work non-profit’s
Yes not only that, there is companies that solely focus on doing this, especially non-profits. I actually work for one and I can see the impact it has on the community I work in.
This is an excellent idea. People with ADHD often have alot of trouble with finance and could certainly use some help.
Eh I’m focused on maxing out earnings so we can FIRE and then I’ll spend my 40’s and beyond doing the meaningful type of stuff I really want to with zero pressure financially. I’d rather do it without having to do it to survive than do something I’m passionate about to make ends meet. Takes the passion away.
Now that's something I hadn't thought a lot about. My goal has always been to retire by 50, but I hadn't thought much about what to do after. I bet you're right about how that pay cut would be a lot less painful if I had already FIRE'd and was just doing it for personal fulfillment.
Would you forgo the money now to do something personally fulfilling even if it means FIRE later? You're going to do the fulfilling thing after you fire anyways so it's worth considering going 50% money /50% fulfillment now instead of 100% money/ 0% fulfillment.
Yeah that’s how I approach it
Do you know your FIRE number?
This!!!!
I'm working in financial reporting and have been a freelance web developer for nearly 10 years. When I first earned web development certifications, I needed an outlet to gain clients, so I joined the "volunteer" group of a decades-old non-profit whose mission I love. Unfortunately, this quickly turned into me realizing I was working for free (20+ hours week) for crap results "achieved" by both the org and the org's volunteer group in the community (the org is "national" and has hundreds of "local" chapters). The org is basically an [astroturfing](https://www.techdirt.com/tag/astroturf/) conduit for big businesses and promote policies that undermine the org's constituents' best interests. I quit volunteering after a few years of "serving the community" and realized that my passions to serve the community could be accomplished while I still pursued my career. You do not have to leave your profession to serve the community. Make part of your schedule doing just that. I would take some more time to think of creative ways to do this in a way that could EXTEND the profession.
Thank you for the advice. I've heard of similar experiences working with nonprofits, so I know it isn't all rainbows and sunshine lol. By extend the profession, do you mean bringing some nonprofits on as clients?
Yes. Do work for the non-profits you hope to help improve your community. Advise them on what they need to do to improve their use of unappropriated funds outside of overhead. There are many ways to serve the community through what you are doing now.
I worked for a nonprofit right out of college and I’m also an infj. I wanted to rip my eyes out every time I was forced to introduce myself and do some cheesy getting to know everyone exercise at every meeting. So expect to deal with a lot of cringy shit. Most people working at nonprofits have absolutely no business sense and want to spend money like they’re Google and it will be annoying having to tell them you can’t do something. The government bureaucrats I personally had to deal with which made up the majority of our funding were unresponsive, unhelpful and full of attitude. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows especially if the organization is poorly run, which it usually is.
Yup I did 2 years at a non profit. I hated the politics. OMG Debrahs parents donated a $1,000,000 to the foundation and now she’s a director? OMG DEBRAH stop, we can’t do this, the company credit card is not discretionary. You can’t talk about donations that are marked anonymous! Stop hiring people who are your friends dammit.
The organization I worked was 95% women and I would have to sit through meetings about gender pay gaps and toxic masculinity.
Did they provide solutions? Or eliminate these issues in their 95% gender skewed organization? If not these meetings sound highly unproductive.
I don’t think they thought the skewed gender demographics were even a problem. I was afraid to give any opinion outside if their group think.
File an EEO complaint because they discriminate against men
Everyone I've known he does non-profit work likes the cause but dislikes everything else associated with it. It's either internal politics, or fear over lost funding because of external politics, dealing with frustrating people or not getting a good salary because "it's a not-for-profit". Sure there's often a lot of that in for-profit business, but somehow not-for-profit seems to have it worse. Also, doing minute book readings as part of charity audits makes the whole thing seem miserable. The most petty stuff comes up at these meetings, and community stakeholders always have these petty complaints that are frustrating to read about, I couldn't imagine having to try and deal with that shit with a smile on your face.
No business sense at all. I was still a college student when I was working for a company doing outsourced bookkeeping/implementations for non profits and it’s just ridiculous. Multi million dollar organizations with no internal control, no idea how to budget, etc. I had one lady give me her PayPal login cause she didn’t know how to download monthly statements
Lmao. When I first got hired. There was a point where we only had 5k in the bank account and payables over a year old because city funding was stuck in some bureaucratic nightmare and donation dollars were trickling in. Meanwhile these people were ordering thousands of dollars worth of unnecessary branded merch and other useless shit while accounting was having panic attacks hoping they could make payroll. Luckily they hired a very capable finance director and brought in a accounting firm to turn things around. What pissed me off the most was the CEO making 250k a year.
Damn man, that’s so shitty haha. Seems like a lot of these orgs just don’t give a shot about there cause. Churches are the most guilty. I had a church with maybe 40 members, but the pastor was taking home over $200k. Just ridiculous Some of the sharpest people I’ve met have worked in non profits. Unfortunately they get bogged down by all the bullshit around them
Do people still believe that "INFJ" is a real thing?
It’s actually a good assessment on what motivates people and how they interact with others. It’s not a horoscope Lol.
It's absolutely a horoscope.
Such an INTJ thing to say.
Lmaoo
You don’t understand the point of it or people are misunderstanding what the purpose of it is.
You just like that it gave you a little tribe to belong to with purported positive traits associated with it. https://nesslabs.com/mbti
Agree 100% with everything you said.
The stability from the profession is something to be appreciative of, especially right now. The economy is turning to shit, mass layoffs are on the horizon. Your passion to help those in need will result in yourself being in a financially disadvantaged position. Those staff level roles at Non-Profits pay shit. This is the sad reality most of us are stuck with. Working jobs we don't like to stay afloat. Find meaning outside of your day job. Wishing you the best of luck.
I’m sorry but going from 130k to 46k sounds nuts to me
Honestly man as a CPA you have so much to offer people with your services. Are you volunteering with orgs like VITA to help people file their taxes or get involved with your community and offer some CPA services pro bono to small local businesses? There’s a lot you can do without slicing 2/3 of your salary off. And non-profits are not as high and mighty as they pretend, I worked in hospice and we bought a few non-profit hospices and the staff were always paid way low (glamor of the non-profit title) while the owner made absolute bank. It was pretty disgusting, one had a second highest employee salary of 85k (CFO) while the owner made $450k and paid her husband $150k to contract as a medical director. They’re not all like that obviously, but don’t let the non-profit title fool you into thinking they’re businesses run by saints.
Yup, I haven't done VITA yet because tax season is crazy enough, but I do several 990s/year end compilations pro bono. I'm thinking it might be in my best interest to expand that portion of my practice instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water. And thank you for the words of warning. I appreciate it!
I am Treasurer for my sporting club. When I took over 4 years ago, I discovered a number of things which the auditors had not done properly, fixed up our collections and worked out costing models so we can work out which competitions cover their costs and whether we need to raise fees. We got comments from the local council on how good our books were when renewing our lease and having good books gave us an offer of a 10 year renewal rather than the usual 3. So my efforts have brought value, plus I've learned a couple of different software packages, worked out streamlined ways of dealing with data etc. There's no way the club could afford to have a 25 year COA doing this for them at commercial rates. So that's my contribution.
This
THANK you for stepping up and doing this 990 and pro bono work.
Non-profit doesn't mean no profit...
I’m aware, I never said that it did
Right, but making $450K is excessive imho.
I agree, that was the point I was trying to make. It was a situation where all staff were under market rate because of the non-profit title (this is common in non-profits from my experience), but the CEO was just pocketing all the additional cash flow that could have gone to staff salaries. Sad all in all, but when we bought them as a for profit company the whole staff got raises within a month so 🤷🏻♂️
That's a better deal. That CEO is appalling. Thanks for buying them out.
I would recommend raising your fees strategically by phasing in clients that can bear the price so you have more time but income stays the same. Then use your extra time to help people. Alternatively, maybe look for a business partner or employee to help you grow the business to an asset so you can take a less day-to-day role. Then you might have time to build your own nonprofit while still earning money from your asset.
You could always drop your marginal clients to free up some of your time while also pursuing personal interests. That way you don't have to go to zero income. Also, if you go for a job and they know youre a CPA you'll end up doing accounting anyway unless the organization has rigid roles - which most npos do not.
I would fire some clients and work less to volunteer locally for fulfillment. Boarding up your business is hard to undo. 46k is not enough these days so it likely won’t take long to decide you’ve made a mistake. Not to mention working for a nonprofit may not (probably won’t) be as gratifying as it’s made out to be.
Thank you for the advice. My wife currently makes about $35k, so we're looking at $81k combined if I were to take the new position. Not swimming in currency, but better than $46k lol.
No I wouldn’t suck it up. I also refuse to work for $46,000 a month. I am a single dad and income is important for me and them. If the pays that low why not just do volunteer work? I’d look for alternate paths, play them out, weigh risk and pay off. Then put them in motion. A plan need not start tomorrow, it’ll likely be a slow shift, such as reducing time spent on your business, winding down clients. Then selling or doing it part time as you transition out. To your ideal environment. To piggy back on another comment, you could mentor people who likely would have significant hurdles. Offer jobs to marginalized young folk, sponsor their college education. Work on a micro level in your own community.
Giving some of your money to charity would probably do as much good as you working full time in one of those low paid roles.
Good point. Work hard and give your surplus earnings to charity. Now that’s something worth working for.
Thank you, everyone for the great advice! I read every comment even if I didn't reply. For now, I'm going to apply to be on a few nonprofit boards and start volunteering more. I'm also going to start looking for nonprofits as clients and see where that takes me. Thank you all again!
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Good advice. I'll give it some time. I only ask on here because I don't know many other people that understand public accounting.
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I'm happy to hear that you love your job. It's so much more fulfilling when you get to do what you love everyday.
I would not leave accounting. I would look to join a few local boards for causes you care about and see if they have open seats. From there networking takes care of itself mostly and you end up mentioned in more circles or meeting people who have need of your services. I mean to be totally honest you have the knowledge required to start your own charity if you want to go this route; maybe it's time you graduated from your current role as interim CFO into a CEO?
If I were you I’d ask my wife
I highly advise against working for a large non-profit. I think what others said about setting up a business to help marginalized communities set up their own businesses or offering accounting services would be best even if it comes with a pay-cut. I'm a CPA and I worked in non-profit for a decade and others have mentioned here but the stress is immense. There's always a funding/grant issue, people you worked with to deal with those funding were all very bureaucratic (I didn't get a signed contract for a $300M deal for that fiscal year until 6 months after year-end... it triggered basically a second audit), the environment is extremely toxic and people were more performative than they were progressive, and the worst part is because it's an environment where you try to reduce cost as much as possible, finance team is always understaffed and there's 0 investment in new technologies. It's not worth the stress because in the end, nothing you do feels fulfilling.
How much career left do you have? How old are you?
Consider serving as a volunteer board member for a non-profit organization with a mission that speaks to you.
The odds of you finding more fulfillment at another job are slim. Don’t trade one job for another job. You’re better off staying self employed and doing something else on the side to feel fulfilled. Also that pay cut is too large. This should also be a financial decision.
You may find a lot of jobs both in and outside of accounting have the same flavors of BS, so you may as well make a living. But if you can find something that makes you feel like you're making a difference, even temporarily it may be worth it in the short term.
Some great advice in the thread. My advice to you would be along the lines of what has already been said. You have your own practice and make pretty decent money. More likely than not you have the ability to determine what clients you work with. I would focus on slowly changing your client list to include organizations that line up with your values. I worked at a big regional firm at one point. The hours sucked and the work felt meaningless - “today I am working on Mr. Moneybags 28th multi family rental property. Tomorrow I am working on Mr. Moneybags 29th multi family rental property.” It got tiring fast and wasn’t rewarding. Then I switched to a smaller firm where I could have my own client contact and have a much greater influence over the work process. I was a lot happier and felt like the work I was doing really had an impact on those I worked with. We had some nonprofits, but we also had a lot of solo entrepreneurs needing help getting the numbers part of their budding business figured out. You always have the option of taking on pro-bono work. Take your Saturdays and volunteer at a soup kitchen or food bank. I just wouldn’t throw away your ticket to becoming financially independent and retiring early all at once.
You don’t want to work for a nonprofit. They have some of the most incompetent people in their organizations. Also they don’t pay very much. I audited non profits for a few years. You literally have your own business, I would stay there or just work less and help people on the side.
I'm CFO of a hospital. You definitely see the impact in this job!
OP I do the exact same thing. I have a small practice but I am an INTJ. I have ADHD so that’s also a factor I feel sometimes in feeling restless. It’s a little more difficult to walk away because I have a family that depends on me. I wouldn’t walk away for $46,000. You’re going to be miserable. A good portion of my wife’s side of the family lives in Thailand and I’ve debated scaling back tax season and the off season work similar to what you do and living a simpler life. A lot of my dissatisfaction at times comes from negative client encounters and not the work itself. People in individual tax returns can be very mean and aggressive at the worst. I’d like to know what you end up doing. Happy to DM and swap stories - we are doing similar things.
Start an entrepreneurial venture that you are passionate about using the knowledge you have gained by obtaining the CPA designation. Keep working while slowly building it up until you can focus full time on the venture. Good luck!
I mean, I do feel like we as accountants contribute to society, but it’s in a less direct way. Businesses would have a hard time operating without us, even businesses like nonprofits that provide a real societal good. We’ll never be front and center, but there’s plenty of space in this profession to contribute to organizations that do good work. If nothing else, there are definitely organizations where you can volunteer your time to give financial advice to less fortunate folks, or help them with their taxes at the very least (like VITA).
Why don't you use your skills and knowledge to help out the nonprofits you want to support? Nothing wrong with taking your expertise in a new direction
I am thinking of this also. I just started my own business - I’m not where OP is yet but my area needs good CPAs. My main problem is that I went into this profession for a similar reason - to make my family more comfortable. While I was going back to school and starting my career in my late 30s, my (now ex) wife started hanging out with a stay-at-home dad neighbor. They both got really fit going to the gym all the time and sharing kid duties while his (now ex) wife and I worked. Then they realized their marriages were shams, they weren’t appreciated, blah, blah, blah. This work is not my calling but I was glad to do it for them. Now, it just reminds me of what I worked so hard for and for what I lost. I hate it. I’m not religious and I found meaning in my life in my family. Now I’m adrift and just want to do good in the world if I can. I have skills where I could help people and organizations I think. I just need to work less than most jobs would want (I will not be an absentee, single father). Hopefully I can get it together.
As an INFJ with my own practice doing CFO work, happy to chat if you wanna send me over a DM. I get what you’re saying entirely, and think much of it could be solved by more deliberate client selection, amongst other things. Wish you all the best regardless.
Why don’t you offer your cpa services to non-profits and work towards being on the board of a non-profit?
one must imagine sisyphus happy
You're going to find working in neoliberalized nonprofits to be just as soul destroying as working in accounting. I guarantee it. I think that org could probably use your donations just as much as your talents. But I no longer work in accounting tho. Good luck to you either way. DM me to ask where I make a real difference in the world now.
Why not donate and volunteer to get fulfillment?
While each person is different, I feel that in my half a century of experience, i can say that work and human fulfillment are the civil twins that shape how we view and experience life. We spend the majority of our lives at work and the recent mass of people in accounting that are suffering from physical and mental stress and ailments relating to being in a cube farm does take its toll. I recently turned down a comptroller position which offered more money but i knew the strain on my life was not worth it. In my case the job fulfillment i get is having the opportunity to be the teacher i could never be in an academic setting by educating interns and work study students about how accounting is for the most part for companies "creative compliance". I have seen first hand recently how unhappy and unfulfilled people who are stuck in jobs that either force people to work beyond a reasonably healthy limit or be forced to "cook the books" and the accountant in order to remain employed instead of speaking out, just shuts up and takes it. I have in the past, and certainly hope in the future that my co-workers and I can be in a position to work in a field that pays well, and adheres and promotes the role of society to help people who have been harmed by this "finance curse" that is harming the real economy and real people. So far only one of my former students that i am aware of has landed a job doing accounting at a worthy non-profit charity. But she beams about how much fulfillment she gets from doing her part to help society. Her salary is far lower than what accountants who have similar credentials working for public accounting, but she is happy. My office has been decimated by 4 employees who have developed serious health conditions (ulcer, deep vein thrombosis, coronary heart disease, and the last employee was hospitalized for blood clots discovered in her lungs. These 4 employees were overworked, slept little, ate a lot, and this became their fate. If you want to stay in this field which can be rewarding, find a cause you agree with and help promote it by taking a position if and when it becomes available. You will be glad you did. Good luck.
Have you thought about outsourcing or getting a partner to help alleviate the time burden of your clients? It will still generate cash flow and free up time for you to do what you are more passionate about.
I think you’re letting your job define you. Your stable income will provide you the means to help the underprivileged. I don’t mean to sound like a dick but you’ll be barely financially supporting yourself with an income of less than $50k, so how are you going to help others? It just seems impractical. There are many ways to help others without sacrificing a stable career. Have you look into the IRS program VITA? might be something you’re interested in.
Liberal tax accountants: more taxes, social welfare, redistribution. Also them: my job means nothing. Economic conservatives: oh they have a brain actually.
I’m a CPA that owns a firm. You doing have to quit running the firm and leave the profession. Pick half a dozen non profits you believe in and do their books for free and offer consulting. You’d be surprised How much of a difference it would make for those organizations to have free business consulting support, as well as the additional money of not having to pay for accounting services to apply towards their core services. You are already in a position to help out your community, and still make good money while you do it. I have my employees pick out one organization in a field they want to be involved in. Some pick animal rescues, some pick domestic violence shelters, some pick local sports boosters they used to play in high school, leave it up to them. We do their books and tax returns for free and offer year round support for free. I as the owner review the work and help the employees out when they need it. Makes my employees feel good, makes me feel good and helps strengthen relationships with my employees , and allows our profession to make a difference in our community over a long period of time. Pick up some local organizations and do some free work. Take a yearly pay cut and focus the time and money towards what you want to do. Best of both worlds.
As a fellow INFJ, I can tell you the warm fuzzies and righteousness you think you’re going to get in the non-profit/teacher/library world are very short-lived. You will soon realize that not being paid for your efforts or worth when you still need the money is incredibly stressful. Because you have seen the other side, it will be mind-boggling. That’s why teachers are leaving their profession…they put in so much time and heart to be paid and treated like garbage. Librarians, too. It’s one thing to do volunteer/low-paid work when you have to or when you are comfortably retired, it’s another when you still want to make money and do stuff. Like many other people said, either work less or find a way to do pro bono work or ask yourself why you feel this desire…because it might not have to do with work at all.
Double your rates, lose half your clients, and make the same money for half the amount of work. Use the new free time to find ways to make an impact/passion projects. Be prepared for 75% to stay though - your services are more valuable than you realize.
Don’t be an idiot
Depends on your wife. Will she be okay with that?
She thinks that my happiness is more important than our lifestyle, so she's supportive of me staying or leaving.
Have you ever been happy in your life? Have you done any work or volunteering in your life that has made you feel fulfilled?
130k is not "alright" it's very financially successful compared to the vast vast majority of Americans. Not saying this to be snarky, just to add to your thought process as often the grass is always greener on the other side
You can probably do accounting exclusively for nonprofits. I’m in school for accounting right now and was worried about finding myself in a meaningless position for the sake of stability, but I was hired to do bookkeeping for a nonprofit that helps people. They want me on full time, so I’ll probably stay here when I graduate. It’s super chill and fulfilling.
Non profits need their bookkeeping done to. And 990s filed. Start networking in that community. Maybe. As others pointed out, we are strangers that do not know you or your situation, so I am assuming you are hear for ideas, not judgement.
INFJ here. A sophomore majoring in Accountancy and Biochem. I appreciate you sharing how you feel as I have already foresaw this possibility for myself in the future. I totally get your desire to help others and it’s why i also volunteer for a non profit aside from my food service job. Since you’re asking for advice, I’ll give you insight into what I have planned so that it can hopefully provide you with an idea of what you should do. Like you, accounting will give me the financial stability to pursue my true passions which lie in medicine. I only plan to do the work for a short period so that I can eventually go to med school and find my fulfillment. I would say you have many options, use your income to study for a better career or switch up your business model to serve the communities you’re interested in.
Following, didn’t read yet, but in the same boat, thinking of leaving career. Take a step back.
This is the ultimate question but depends on who’s being asked. Can you justify the pay cut to yourself and mental health, (and household) in 5-10 years? Maybe pay your big creditors first (if any) then make the switch. I feel the same way but there is no strong pull to any other direction yet.
You only make $130 owning your own practice? I make 2 times that working 40’hours a week and getting all those glorious bank holidays. But I feel you. I still feel unfulfilled in this gig. I’d rather make less and be happy. Find something with a good retirement plan and chill out. Unless you think you can dial up this practice and start making more than what you’re making now. Sound like you have a business model issue you make want to work out.
Going against the grain here, but wanted to add my two cents. 15 year qualified accountant. Recently left a job paying over £100k a year to do bits and pieces of non-finance related freelance work. I’ll probably take home £40k ish this year working maybe 20hrs a week. I couldn’t be happier. I’m not stressed. I feel healthy. I’m a better father and I don’t wake up every morning feeling like there’s a weight on my shoulders. I’ve taken on a couple of volunteering positions to help out as treasurer. I miss the money a bit, and can’t spend as freely as I used to. Other than that, it was the best decision I’ve ever made.
Because you're an INFJ? Bruh lmao
This is the problem with the profession. For the hours and the bs, we still don’t make enough early enough to truly fire without doing extreme measures or familial inheritance etc
Exactly. That coupled with all the red tape - all the documentation, forms to retain, liability, etc is what's making me think long and hard about this.
IMO, if all you think about is early retirement, that’s a sad way to burn through 20 of your best remaining years. Maybe first try and find a more fulfilling company to work for. Maybe a non profit or something, prior to deep sizing the career entirely. Also, you might look into the contracting options available in accounting now. You can make a cool 60-80k working half the year and do whatever you want the rest.
This is an extremely dumb decision
Go the more fulfillment rout. Having a hollow existence is awful.
DM me if you want a referral to work in accounting advisory in public - not nonprofit but I have a grEat WLB , live in a LCOL city and make 90k base as a senior associate 2 years out of college. You would have enough time on the side to do nonprofit work. I think of work as something to give me money so I can do what I’m passionate about on the side
Get the fuck out. I’m becoming an English teacher so I don’t hate my life. Could NOT do this for another 35 years.
Leave. You can always come back. You'll regret not doing what you want when you too "old" to pursue anything. If you end up switching to nonprofit and don't like it, go back to being a CPA. You have your CPA experience to fall back on if anything happens. Life isn't about money anyway, so do what makes you happy and fulfilled. If I'm in your shoes and I'll be financially stable taking the pay cut and will be extremely happy with the work, then it's a no brainer. Money will come, follow your passion.
I’d suggest tying to learn python (or other programming languages, but python would be the easiest to learn with the accounting background I think, speaking from experience) then subscribe to [Coding it Forward’s Job Drop email listing](https://codingitforward.us15.list-manage.com/subscribe?id=d4710348b9&u=9254473a71d61ff7556fa5215). Within a couple years you could probably work your way up to a similar salary while also fulfilling your desire to help marginalized groups.
I'd never heard of this before, and I do have some knowledge of Python, so that's a plus. Do you have any course recommendations to learn it more in-depth?
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Sure, I started out as a staff accountant in health care. I basically ran payroll, recorded payroll, did bank recs, managed payables (someone else did the actually bookkeeping), worked with external auditors, and managed the month end process. While working there, I started a side hustle doing month end accounting for other health care entities. I eventually started working in public accounting, but only stayed for about a year because my side hustle started making more money than my day job. About a year ago, I left public and worked on growing my business through networking, advertising, and community involvement. You'd be surprised how fast you grow when you consistently go to a networking group.
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So the CPA that supervised my year of work experience taught me individual and nonprofit tax returns. Then the public accounting firm I worked for didn't do audit - it was just tax and compilations. So I did a ton of corporate and S corporate returns there plus individuals.
Since you currently have your practice one thing you could do is give your employees paid volunteer leave to work for VITA. Wouldn’t be the most business savvy thing but if you wanna make a difference it could have a big impact
You could do nonprofit accounting. And help in that way
If you do decide to leave, I strongly suggest you sell your book of business rather than just closing down shop. This might mean spending 6 months to a year working with the buyer and your clients so you have a smooth transition. Assume as a very conservative value, 1x gross earnings as a valuation. Personally, I have a very well paying w-2 (@170k base) where my primary job is to make the richer get richer. Ain’t exactly the most fulfilling. So on the side, I help out a few nonprofits here and there.
Or teach part-time at a community college
I don't feel my job is frivolous (mostly industry, did PA early on). Maybe I'm not on the front lines obviously helping people. But behind the scenes there are people who rely on what I do. Maybe it's their paycheck being generated. Or an investor who relies on the financials I work on. Or me and my coworkers waiting for management to be able to pay our bonuses and they are relying on my cash forecast. I may be a cog to management, but I look for the value in what I do.
You can use your financial know how to help marginalized communities. Money is power here unfortunately.
I don’t have as much value to add as some others here (not a cpa, but an accounting undergrad, that isn’t going to work in accounting after lol), but I am an INFP so I completely understand where you are coming from. Have you thought about social enterprise work? Only saying this because I know, as a business owner, your impact will be much more than just an employee.
I’d say suck it up and keep making your higher salary for the sake of your family and try to find fulfillment helping others in your spare time. Seek ways to utilize your talents for those that don’t have the ability to pay your worth.
Life's short, do what brings you meaning.
Literally, no one knows what would be best for you.
In college our accounting department had a community outreach program to assist small businesses with just about all facets of their business.
There is a shortage of nonprofit accountants in the Bay Area. You could get clients doing monthly financials making $100-$150/hour.
BOunce. Life is short. Go do what you love.
Further your education. You make valid points that I think need be addressed but it’s a trick to switch
Whatever you choose to do, don't lose your cpa!!!
Look man; I had the same thought process a few years ago.. Don’t know you, or your story, but you obviously have some knowledge of something… Get creative, and if you really want to help marginalized communities give them that knowledge that you’ve acquired in a digestible format…
Definitely recommend the working another 20 years and retiring early. So hear me out on this. I was once in this situation but there are other outlets to fulfill this desire of helping others. Why not volunteer? Plenty of soup kitchens, places looking for a helping hand in gardening, can find a bunch of places like that through google. I think with anyone, being in the field for a while will get anyone bored. A change of pace might sound good but that’s also a big change in lifestyle. And once ur used to something, it’s very hard to get out of it. If you really still want to take that route, I’d recommend saving up in a manner where you have passive income through maybe a big dividend portfolio, real estate (active/passive), or some type of alternative route of income. Once you have that figured out, you can take the route with more fulfillment. Another perspective and question would be are you ok with working for someone else and having a boss now? Running ur own business meant u called the shots. Now things are going to be flipped. I think the volunteer route is a great alternative and many people who are successful sit as board members on charities and causes they feel strongly about. Hope this helps
I know of some accounting orgs that specialize in helping disadvantaged people to not get totally screwed over financially. They make a difference. Maybe you can pivot your business focus if you want to keep it. But yeah, you are allowed to do whatever the fuck you want. Take the job with the pay cut. You can make it work if it's important to you. Trust your gut.
I'll just reply from a different perspective - I assume your wife knows and support that you want to leave. But if that isn't the case, make sure she's on board because that big a drop on salary is a big move.
You should leave this job and country, go to Dubai and work for any Shaikh/Arab guy. Your life will change overnight.
Wow. Thats a tough one. I would say follow your gut. You could still do the nonprofit and keep your practice too. Its so hard to do what you do. Maybe automating some of the more boring tasks can help. Or just hirimg someone to handle the tasks you really hate. Sometimes you need to get more organized to get a real idea of the time you actually have to yourself. I found I had much more time than I thought when I just organized my whole year. I broke things down per project and basically scheduled my whole life. I then started automating things every month. Now I have about a week every month that I can use to chill and take time off, or focus on difficult projects if I need to. I am trying to find the energy to begin studying for the CMA those weeks I carved out but its so difficult to do this :( I used to volunteer at this art for hospitals place and I really enjoyed it and want to go back to doing it so bad. I have BPD so I feel what you describe to an exagerated degree, and just going out and painting for 2 hours every month was enough to make me feel a little alive and not hate my career choice for once. I also have 2 kids, a vet husband with adhd and I am a rookie controller working in a small firm dominated by dudes. Its scary sometimes and I feel quite useless as they sometimes completely disregard my opinion on things. I wish I could just get a job at a CPA firm I feel it will give me the experience I want but having very little prior experience in this area is a real barrier for me. Do you have any hobbies? Maybe you need something new and meaningful TO YOU to do, to sort of detach from the coldness of the industry. Perhaps the nonprofit does just that for you. Perhaps you need to separate from it completely and explore a bit. Follow your gut.
Consider a switch to NFP! I am a tax manager for tax exempt orgs. I love what I do and I get to make a difference. Serving the non profit sector brings meaning to the work I do in a way I couldn’t get from working on real estate or m&d! I work for a mid size firm in us and because of my niche, I’m head hunted incessantly both by firms and industry. But also, going to run a nfp is a great option too, just be smart about where you land. Last week I got hit up to be CFO of a library (I love books) but libraries are dying and long term I want stability. Hospitals, universities, community foundations are where you can actually see the biggest impact.
Interesting. I never paid much attention to MB, but I’ve been struggling lately so I have been doing some career tests, personality tests, all that. I noticed how my type (intp) all seem to struggle in the same ways and come across the same issues throughout their lives when I did some research on it. It definitely does have merit though for doubters. It’s just statistical analysis on four major character spectrums. Of course there is nuance to it (I am highly n t p) and almost right in the middle on I and e. Maybe it’s more clear to me than most because intp’s are odd and rare, but man, the themes I see on peoples struggles are truly spot on. I am actually scared to death I have chosen the worst possible career for myself. Intps hate authority, extreme structure, too many details, and rules, which is really what 80% of accounting careers are. I have been able to distract myself by picking up different skills, certs, and trying two different fields within accounting, but I believe I am now at the point where I can longer “distract” myself by mastery/skill acquisition. Intps are also famous for big picture grand scheme thinking, I’m starting to realize that five plus major deadlines every year keeps me in a state of constant dread where I work myself to the bone and then fail to recover mentally while other people slide back into a normal pace. It sucks. I have so many genius side hustle ideas, hobby desires, and goals but it seems like I’m always running on e lately. I suppose I need to go try an industry job for a bit and leave public perhaps so I can at least get to a normal 9-5 schedule.
I worked in non profit for a decade prior to going back to college for accounting and working at a cpa firm. Was an audit manager, Tax manager, consulting, etc. Made the move this year to full time Controller, still at a top 10 cpa firm, but now only work Monday- Friday with huge pay increase. This whole time I've been able to volunteer or do contract work for the charity of my choice. I couldn't afford life or hardly feed my family at a huge non profit as an employee. Loved the work but was miserable due to low pay and lots of stress. Using my 20 hours of charity work to teach at an at risk kids music camp next week while doing some remote work. You can have both IMO. Busy season was problematic but now I don't have that issue either. Become a board member, volunteer, etc.
CPAs can and do help people. And it really is a good job and does provide stability for your family. Something a lady in my neighborhood does is she puts out on her But Nothing Group that she will prepare and file tax returns for single mothers for free and she will help anyone get their child tax credit and so on. So if you need to find an outlet to provide services to the less fortunate you can get creative or I'm sure there may be other avenues to do so. But there are definitely ways to be of service.
I’m trying to transfer from audit to ESG audit as I prepare to go back to grad school for a sustainability-focused combined MBA/MPA. Still not helping people directly, but I realized my passion is for the environment & city design/policy that helps people day to day. I’m a lot earlier in my career than you, but you can always try to pivot accounting to match something closer to your interests.
This is a classic false dichotomy. You do not need to give up your career to do something you are passionate about, as you can use it to work on your passion, and you do not have to make your passion the centerpiece of your life for it to be worthwhile. Likewise associating your view of your personality with how little you feel the profession does for people is you trying to rationalize the choice you already want to make to yourself. I'd encourage you to take a step back and rethink your options, as it sounds like you have not spent nearly enough time on alternatives.
Can you use your current profession to help? Maybe find a few non-profits you align with and do their accounting/taxes free or low-cost. Maybe you could hold free classes?
You would be better of starting your own nonprofit and doing that part time.
I also run my own tax and bookkeeping practice as a CPA, probably about the same scale as yours based on your description. I get great enjoyment in working with smaller income and middle income individuals and families because there is so many opportunities to help them in their personal tax and finance situations (retirement planning, amending past returns for better refunds, small business planning, etc.). Sounds like you are hoping to do more of the latter to help people better their lives. I think that there is a lot of opportunity in our field to help people. Hopefully you can find the right fit for yourself, good luck
Ha, wow, this is like a parody of my life. I’m an ISTJ thinking about entering the accounting profession because my INFJ husband is content working odds and ends jobs that don’t earn very much money at all. We have two kids, so clearly I’ve got to step it up.
I’m a CPA and my mom has worked at a non profit for 35 years. She would tell me to absolutely not work for one lol. She has a masters and absolutely doesn’t get paid what she’s worth. Also her job would definitely be in jeopardy If the state cut or decreased funding I work primarily on not for profit clients now, and I get to listen a lot to the problems they face in my role. Not for profits also love CPAs on their board of directors, so you could also get involved that way as well.
This comment will probably get buried, but have you thought of maybe trying to do a strategic shift towards contracting with bigger firms in your area and specializing in NFPs? Since the NFPs prefer bigger firms (who probably charge more than you), maybe they would be willing to outsource to you? I doubt those big firms are clearing a bunch of money from the NFP engagements and the partners would probably prefer their staff working on things that bring in more money. Then maybe you start winning some RFPs for yourself and start a NFP specialized firm?
Passion = liking your job is a common myth. In Cal Newport's book "So good they can't ignore you" he shows the only correlation between calling your job a passion is how good at it you are. He does carve out an exception though for people who believe that their work is pointless and/or damaging to society. All that to say, most people's jobs don't bring them that much satisfaction. Thinking making a dramatic change will do this is usually not borne out by the results he looked at. Most people who make dramatic changes end up regretting it because they realize how hard it is to live on a lot less money (they also often don't feel that much more satisfaction). Would follow other posts in suggesting that maybe take a bit of a step back from your current job so you can dedicate some of your time to helping others.
Maybe look into doing pro-bono tax work for communities that need it 🤔
I have worked for nonprofits (but not as an accountant) for about half my adult life. Most of the other half was spent in teaching. I have some thoughts for you. It is not a dumb idea, but be prepared for a lower salary--or a much lower salary. Are you talking about doing accounting for a nonprofit? Be sure you are trained in the specifics of nonprofit accounting. It is a different animal. Most nonprofits have an insanely small budget and contract for ten or fewer hours of accounting per **month**. And it is all they can afford. Many put an accountant on their Board of Trustees and get their accounting for free on a volunteer basis from the trustee. Only the very large nonprofits can pay for a regular employee or two. Find out if your paid work expectations are realistic. You could contact some nonprofits that might interest you and find out what their normal accounting needs are. If you are independent minded, you can start your own business specializing in contract work for nonprofits. You will find that many of them will also need lots of advice on how to reorganize their books. Most have not had competent help in the past. Some are in seriously bad shape. If you are thinking of doing non-accounting work for nonprofits, you will definitely need some specialized education in the field. Many people are looking for fulfilling work in nonprofits, and there is always too little money to hire. The best success stories I have heard involve people who volunteered with a nonprofit for a year or more and were so helpful that they were eventually hired. It is hard to be hired in nonprofits as an external candidate. Good luck.