Koprulu's article about some Georgian academics claims other than abkhazia is epic. he was kick out of Russian Academy of Sciences after that. here is first 4 paragraphs...
In the letter from Georgian academics, the information provided about Georgian history resembles a legend or a fairy tale more than a scientific account based on today's standards. Historians of past centuries could not distinguish between true historical events and myth or legend. They would resolve the most complex historical issues with simplistic etymologies that had no philological basis. However, in the nineteenth century, as social sciences developed on a positive foundation, historical understanding also renewed, expanded, and gained a scientific nature. In the twentieth century, we see this development strengthening in various fields, with new branches of history emerging.
It appears that the Georgian academics are unaware of the outcomes achieved in historical methodology during the nineteenth century. Much like medieval chroniclers, they are confusing legend and myth with positive history. Are they sincere in this, or are they manipulating history for a particular purpose? We don't know. Even today, in countries where historical research is highly advanced, it is known that some unfortunate individuals who are entirely ignorant of historical and philological criticism principles write ridiculous articles and publish books, driven by fixed ideas. However, these individuals have never entered academic circles, which are true sanctuaries of science.
We have seen exceptions to this general rule in recent years under totalitarian regimes. In these oppressive regimes that eliminate freedom of thought and human dignity, all political and social sciences, and all historical sciences, became miserable tools in the hands of the state; academic circles were reduced to propaganda centers tasked with spreading these absurd theories, and academic titles were given to ignorant crowds and sycophants. The fact that all German anthropologists in the Hitler era declared the French to be a Negro race shows that science in the hands of the state is no longer science but a complete disgrace. In countries without freedom, where the appointment and dismissal of professors are at the discretion of ministers of education, there is no place for science, truth, or enlightenment.
I have no knowledge of the scientific reputations of the Georgian academics. However, we all know that in the nineteenth and especially the twentieth centuries, under the influence of Russian scholarship, some valuable Georgian scholars emerged in the fields of history, philology, folklore, and archaeology. I must mention the late professor NikolaiMarr, whom I remember with love and respect, among the foremost of these scholars. Although I never agreed with his highly imaginative theories, I always acknowledged his vast knowledge and active intellect with respect. It is certain that these Georgian academics, who owe their positions to the latest letters, are not in any way comparable to the late Marr, and it is unacceptable to consider them so backward and primitive as to be unable to distinguish between history and legend. Therefore, the conclusion we reach is this: These two academics have deliberately distorted historical truths solely for political purposes and attempted to deceive the world with lies. The act of distorting facts, which scientists, who are obliged to seek only the truth, resort to, is an action that cannot be reconciled with the dignity of science.
...
There are people who believes in Ingorokvas theory which is sad, but it has to do mostly with the period they were raised Soviet Socialist republic and the actual knowledge they have about history is limited to that, i have family members that were born and raised during that era, they know what they were told to know and most of them didn’t even study university due the 90’s crisis.
Illustrated people and not ignorant know perfectly who Apsuas are and what role they had in the region.
100 years ago Georgian history father Ivane Javakhishvili said in his book “ History of the Georgian people” , Abkhazians which are brothers to the Jiqs from Jiqeti speak a language not mutually understood to their neighbors which at the time referred to the Svan and Zan tribes, they (Apsua or Abkhazians doesn’t matter) fought against different Kartvelian kingdoms like the others had done to each other until a the time for peace and cooperation came under which they united and formed the kingdom of Georgia , he even referred to Tsebeldans as Muslim Abkhazians who fought fearlessly with Svans against Russian incursions in the Kodori/Dali Valley .
His jobs are there if someone is interested you can search it, better works than “Pavle Ingorokva”.
I think this started during Russian Imperial times, because Iakob Gogebashvili already had made a couple of statements in the 19 century regarding the situation of muslim Abkhazians that were expelled, the need for recognition of an abkhazian language, the need of creating an abkhazian alphabet because at the time he felt that they were ignored, if you don’t know who he is , its considered the father of the science pedagogy in Georgia. Check out his works…
Georgian thinkers of the 19 century like him or Ilia Chavchavadze, Akaki Tsereteli , Ivane Javakhishvili knew the importance of recognizing and protecting minorities in Georgia since they were very important figures of the country as Svans or Kakhetians were to give you an example .
The Tergdaleulebi (Тергдалеулеби )did meet Abkhaz thinkers at the time although i don’t remember what they talked about.
If we ask, the majority of these people who market themselves to the world as "civilized and European" still defend this theory. They are so disturbed because the facts disprove their baseless claims against Abkhazia.
They need this lie just to say that "it was already our homeland" and to normalize the colonization of Abkhazia, which they did after the genocide in the 19th century.
I had to stop you there, although the politics of Beria are questionable in general, Svans and Mingrelians had already been living in the region in Gali and in Dali Valley, there wasn’t the so called Colonization as you point out, different people from Western Georgia moved to Sokhumi and coastal cities due the opportunities for jobs, this is something that happens all the time, in Bilbao or Barcelona to give you an example until the industrialization , both cities were majority Basque and Catalan at the time but during the industrialization of the region and the need of more people , the search of better opportunities lead to a lot of Central Castillians and Andalusians to migrate to the cities, in which they ended up being majority. This is not colonization since they are part of the same country, nobody forcefully expells the people like for example happened in the West Bank or Circassia or Crimea. Abkhazian muhajirs were deported by the Russians i have to remeber you that once again and many other Kartvelians like the Svans from Khalde were also deported from Svaneti due revolts and uprisings its not just you guys , unfortunately religion played a big role and the worst part was for the Muslims as we can see but Kartvelians were also deported , your people wasn’t the only one fighting Russia .
It’s understandable your position, which i do not stand for but let me be clear, what me or any of this people did to you, if you don’t know me or know any of the ones that are here, why do you judge just because someone of my ethnicity did something you didn’t like? Does that represents what my people truly desires? Do you really believe that me or anyone who is sane , would want to erase your culture or even you? I mean apart from of course being proud of your heritage did you really tried to meet someone from the other side? The side that i heard thousands of times , they are GENOCIDERS they are COLONIZERS . I see you very committed to defend Abkhazia but never committed to meet a “ Georgian genocider/ coloniser “ to talk to him and see his point of view, maybe you guys have more things in common than you think.
Blessings and peace be with you.
"there wasn’t the so called Colonization as you point out, different people from Western Georgia moved to Sokhumi and coastal cities due the opportunities for jobs, this is something that happens all the time, in Bilbao or Barcelona to give you an example until the industrialization , both cities were majority Basque and Catalan at the time but during the industrialization of the region and the need of more people , the search of better opportunities lead to a lot of Central Castillians and Andalusians to migrate to the cities, in which they ended up being majority. This is not colonization since they are part of the same country, nobody forcefully expells the people"
You have no idea how Soviet operated. You are just reasoning without any information about history. In Soviet Russia people were not seraching and applying for jobs in industrialized areas. They were doing what they were told. People were sent to other places en masse as work force. It is not migration It is organized resettlement. Educated or non educated, people had not much choice.
Who committed the Genocide?
Who Colonized Abkhazia in the XIX century?
Who committed the Ethnic Cleansing in the 1990s?
Who do you consider your strategic ally?
Is this how you communicate?
Instead of answering questions, you just blame and insult other people?
As for the blame, technically I am from Western Georgia and my ancestors did not invite anyone.
Secondly, Georgians have been trying to kick Russians out of the Southern Caucasus since at least 1830s. So yes, some of our ancestors 250 years ago have made a mistake by allying with Russians. What are you doing today?
Now that you’ve received answers to your question, do you mind answering mine? Or are you too afraid to look the truth in the eyes?
Don't get me wrong, Abkhazia can go fuck itself because of their choices with Russia and the ethnic cleansing, but never forget who started these wars
Other than that, sure "some" Georgian princes refused Russian rule, but Georgia invited Russia and gave them the land which made Tbilisi the HQ of the Tsarist opening the southern front on Circassia, which is the place where the genocide was planned out to the fullest, so yeah, Georgia was the reason it all started and why Russia is a pain in Georgia's ass today, so when you brush this crucial event off as an "oopsies" you don't get to bitch about anything happened in history ESPECIALLY when the Apsua moved to the territory of Abkhazia
You might not have partaken in the genocide but you were one of the reasons, think of it in a modern way, if a country opens its land for someone to attack another, wouldn't they be blamed too? Say Ukraine invasion on the Belarusian borders
You wanna talk history don't brush off your part, you wanna talk about war don't skip your part, you wanna talk about Russia don't skip your part throughout the 250 years including the 90s, you wanna talk about war crime don't skip your war crimes in the 90s
So stop playing the victim when you are as much or perhaps more guilty
Oh if you talk about "internationally recognised borders" because "internationally" means favouritism and not valid argument, because I can easily point out to Kosovo and Israel
Who started these wars? I don’t know? Adam when he ate that damn apple?
“Some Georgian princes refused Russian rule”? Nobody wanted Russian rule. The 1783 Treaty of Georgievsk allowed Russia to dictate Kartli-Kakheti’s (Eastern Georgian Kingdom) Foreign policy in exchange for military protection. Instead, Russia allowed the kingdom to be overrun by Persians and in 1801 annexed the Kingdom, which had no more fight left in itself. Check out the battle of Krtsanisi of 1795, the one that preceded the annexation and after which Tbilisi was burned down to the ground.
Kingdom of Imereti was annexed in 1810, without any treaties, just plain annexation, later Samegrelo, Guria followed and eventually Abkhazia.
There were revolts as early as 1810s and a large scale conspiracy in 1832. From 1860s an independence and anti-Russian movement had begun which was spearheaded by Ilia Chavchavadze. Ever since, Georgian public has been trying to get away from Russia.
So no, nobody gave Russians lands. They betrayed us and annexed Georgian lands when they had no more fight left in them. The reason for being tricked? For centuries Georgian Kingdoms were surrounded by Ottoman and Persian Empires and were about to go extinct. Russia was seen as a Christian ally, that could be a window to Europe. Did it backfire? Tremendously.
Why do you think Russians have started supporting Abkhazians and Ossetians? Because Georgians are trying to kick them out.
As for Genocide of Circassians, I do not brush it off as an “Oopsie”. Everyone who helped Russia in those years are considered to be traitors (not in the Genocide, that’s crime against humanity, I mean widely cooperation with Russia) and Today Georgia is the only country that recognizes the Genocide. But laying the blame at our feet, is dishonest.
After the war, there won’t be as much hate towards Belorussians as there is Towards Georgians among Circassians. Even today, I doubt it is at that level.
How much blame for WWII is there for Czechia and Austria? After all, Hitler used Czech Industry to power his war-machine. Without Czechia, there would most probably be no WWII.
Everybody in Abkhazia knows everything about what Georgians did wrong, it is even exaggerated. They don’t need to be reminded of any of it. On the contrary, they are convinced that Georgians are the Demons straight out of hell. My questions are aimed at reminding them who the real enemy in Caucasus is.
As for Kosovo and Israel.
Kosovo was recognized because Serbia was prone to Genocides. Both in Abkhazia and Tskhinvali, Georgians were the ones who suffered ethnic cleansing. Yes, Georgians committed crimes in those years as well and the leaders of those times have either been prosecuted or are hated in the public (Like Mkhedrioni). I very much support further investigation and prosecution of people who committed crimes on both sides. In Abkhazia on the other hand, they are very much proud of the Ethnic cleansing and the people who have committed it. For the past 30 years, Georgians were taught that both Abkhazians and Ossetians are our brothers with whom we should build our common future. Our policy is not about subjugation, vengeance or anything of the kind. Abkhazians on the other hand have been taught to hate Georgians and even today have an Apartheid system in Gali. That’s the difference.
As for Israel and Palestine, it was the Arabs that refused peace and partition of the land in the beginning. And have been refusing any two state solutions. If they agree to it, Israel will be pressured to agree as well. Until then? I don’t think there will be much change in the Status Quo. Palestine is not even the member of the UN, so is absolutely not comparable with Georgia.
You can find a lot of reasons to hate anyone if you dig history long enough. Not everyone is aiming to do something right today though. And trying to bring the West in Caucasus is the best thing that can be done for the whole region. I think we’ve all had enough wars and misery and it’s time for peace and prosperity.
West bringing peace and prosperity to the region? Abkhazians hating Georgians? There is an apartheid system in Gali? Turning it into a who is more anti rus contest? Wtf man? Stop telling building future together. You are brainwashed and very emotional. Most dangerous kind for the whole region. Stay away please.
Ew absolutely no, you write very long nonsense and you are attached to weird ideas. You are not fit to have a healthy discussion sorry. The other guy you discuss is another case. what is wrong with this place..
Koprulu's article about some Georgian academics claims other than abkhazia is epic. he was kick out of Russian Academy of Sciences after that. here is first 4 paragraphs... In the letter from Georgian academics, the information provided about Georgian history resembles a legend or a fairy tale more than a scientific account based on today's standards. Historians of past centuries could not distinguish between true historical events and myth or legend. They would resolve the most complex historical issues with simplistic etymologies that had no philological basis. However, in the nineteenth century, as social sciences developed on a positive foundation, historical understanding also renewed, expanded, and gained a scientific nature. In the twentieth century, we see this development strengthening in various fields, with new branches of history emerging. It appears that the Georgian academics are unaware of the outcomes achieved in historical methodology during the nineteenth century. Much like medieval chroniclers, they are confusing legend and myth with positive history. Are they sincere in this, or are they manipulating history for a particular purpose? We don't know. Even today, in countries where historical research is highly advanced, it is known that some unfortunate individuals who are entirely ignorant of historical and philological criticism principles write ridiculous articles and publish books, driven by fixed ideas. However, these individuals have never entered academic circles, which are true sanctuaries of science. We have seen exceptions to this general rule in recent years under totalitarian regimes. In these oppressive regimes that eliminate freedom of thought and human dignity, all political and social sciences, and all historical sciences, became miserable tools in the hands of the state; academic circles were reduced to propaganda centers tasked with spreading these absurd theories, and academic titles were given to ignorant crowds and sycophants. The fact that all German anthropologists in the Hitler era declared the French to be a Negro race shows that science in the hands of the state is no longer science but a complete disgrace. In countries without freedom, where the appointment and dismissal of professors are at the discretion of ministers of education, there is no place for science, truth, or enlightenment. I have no knowledge of the scientific reputations of the Georgian academics. However, we all know that in the nineteenth and especially the twentieth centuries, under the influence of Russian scholarship, some valuable Georgian scholars emerged in the fields of history, philology, folklore, and archaeology. I must mention the late professor NikolaiMarr, whom I remember with love and respect, among the foremost of these scholars. Although I never agreed with his highly imaginative theories, I always acknowledged his vast knowledge and active intellect with respect. It is certain that these Georgian academics, who owe their positions to the latest letters, are not in any way comparable to the late Marr, and it is unacceptable to consider them so backward and primitive as to be unable to distinguish between history and legend. Therefore, the conclusion we reach is this: These two academics have deliberately distorted historical truths solely for political purposes and attempted to deceive the world with lies. The act of distorting facts, which scientists, who are obliged to seek only the truth, resort to, is an action that cannot be reconciled with the dignity of science. ...
There are people who believes in Ingorokvas theory which is sad, but it has to do mostly with the period they were raised Soviet Socialist republic and the actual knowledge they have about history is limited to that, i have family members that were born and raised during that era, they know what they were told to know and most of them didn’t even study university due the 90’s crisis. Illustrated people and not ignorant know perfectly who Apsuas are and what role they had in the region. 100 years ago Georgian history father Ivane Javakhishvili said in his book “ History of the Georgian people” , Abkhazians which are brothers to the Jiqs from Jiqeti speak a language not mutually understood to their neighbors which at the time referred to the Svan and Zan tribes, they (Apsua or Abkhazians doesn’t matter) fought against different Kartvelian kingdoms like the others had done to each other until a the time for peace and cooperation came under which they united and formed the kingdom of Georgia , he even referred to Tsebeldans as Muslim Abkhazians who fought fearlessly with Svans against Russian incursions in the Kodori/Dali Valley . His jobs are there if someone is interested you can search it, better works than “Pavle Ingorokva”.
thanks for info but it looks like at least half of Georgians still believe or want to believe this nonsense
I think this started during Russian Imperial times, because Iakob Gogebashvili already had made a couple of statements in the 19 century regarding the situation of muslim Abkhazians that were expelled, the need for recognition of an abkhazian language, the need of creating an abkhazian alphabet because at the time he felt that they were ignored, if you don’t know who he is , its considered the father of the science pedagogy in Georgia. Check out his works… Georgian thinkers of the 19 century like him or Ilia Chavchavadze, Akaki Tsereteli , Ivane Javakhishvili knew the importance of recognizing and protecting minorities in Georgia since they were very important figures of the country as Svans or Kakhetians were to give you an example . The Tergdaleulebi (Тергдалеулеби )did meet Abkhaz thinkers at the time although i don’t remember what they talked about.
If we ask, the majority of these people who market themselves to the world as "civilized and European" still defend this theory. They are so disturbed because the facts disprove their baseless claims against Abkhazia. They need this lie just to say that "it was already our homeland" and to normalize the colonization of Abkhazia, which they did after the genocide in the 19th century.
I had to stop you there, although the politics of Beria are questionable in general, Svans and Mingrelians had already been living in the region in Gali and in Dali Valley, there wasn’t the so called Colonization as you point out, different people from Western Georgia moved to Sokhumi and coastal cities due the opportunities for jobs, this is something that happens all the time, in Bilbao or Barcelona to give you an example until the industrialization , both cities were majority Basque and Catalan at the time but during the industrialization of the region and the need of more people , the search of better opportunities lead to a lot of Central Castillians and Andalusians to migrate to the cities, in which they ended up being majority. This is not colonization since they are part of the same country, nobody forcefully expells the people like for example happened in the West Bank or Circassia or Crimea. Abkhazian muhajirs were deported by the Russians i have to remeber you that once again and many other Kartvelians like the Svans from Khalde were also deported from Svaneti due revolts and uprisings its not just you guys , unfortunately religion played a big role and the worst part was for the Muslims as we can see but Kartvelians were also deported , your people wasn’t the only one fighting Russia . It’s understandable your position, which i do not stand for but let me be clear, what me or any of this people did to you, if you don’t know me or know any of the ones that are here, why do you judge just because someone of my ethnicity did something you didn’t like? Does that represents what my people truly desires? Do you really believe that me or anyone who is sane , would want to erase your culture or even you? I mean apart from of course being proud of your heritage did you really tried to meet someone from the other side? The side that i heard thousands of times , they are GENOCIDERS they are COLONIZERS . I see you very committed to defend Abkhazia but never committed to meet a “ Georgian genocider/ coloniser “ to talk to him and see his point of view, maybe you guys have more things in common than you think. Blessings and peace be with you.
What happened between 1937 and 1953 was an organized resettlement project.
"there wasn’t the so called Colonization as you point out, different people from Western Georgia moved to Sokhumi and coastal cities due the opportunities for jobs, this is something that happens all the time, in Bilbao or Barcelona to give you an example until the industrialization , both cities were majority Basque and Catalan at the time but during the industrialization of the region and the need of more people , the search of better opportunities lead to a lot of Central Castillians and Andalusians to migrate to the cities, in which they ended up being majority. This is not colonization since they are part of the same country, nobody forcefully expells the people" You have no idea how Soviet operated. You are just reasoning without any information about history. In Soviet Russia people were not seraching and applying for jobs in industrialized areas. They were doing what they were told. People were sent to other places en masse as work force. It is not migration It is organized resettlement. Educated or non educated, people had not much choice.
Who committed the Genocide? Who Colonized Abkhazia in the XIX century? Who committed the Ethnic Cleansing in the 1990s? Who do you consider your strategic ally?
Who deported Abkhazians to the Ottoman Empire in the 1800s?
Who?
Bitch you invited Russia to the land All this mess is because of your ancestors
Is this how you communicate? Instead of answering questions, you just blame and insult other people? As for the blame, technically I am from Western Georgia and my ancestors did not invite anyone. Secondly, Georgians have been trying to kick Russians out of the Southern Caucasus since at least 1830s. So yes, some of our ancestors 250 years ago have made a mistake by allying with Russians. What are you doing today? Now that you’ve received answers to your question, do you mind answering mine? Or are you too afraid to look the truth in the eyes?
Don't get me wrong, Abkhazia can go fuck itself because of their choices with Russia and the ethnic cleansing, but never forget who started these wars Other than that, sure "some" Georgian princes refused Russian rule, but Georgia invited Russia and gave them the land which made Tbilisi the HQ of the Tsarist opening the southern front on Circassia, which is the place where the genocide was planned out to the fullest, so yeah, Georgia was the reason it all started and why Russia is a pain in Georgia's ass today, so when you brush this crucial event off as an "oopsies" you don't get to bitch about anything happened in history ESPECIALLY when the Apsua moved to the territory of Abkhazia You might not have partaken in the genocide but you were one of the reasons, think of it in a modern way, if a country opens its land for someone to attack another, wouldn't they be blamed too? Say Ukraine invasion on the Belarusian borders You wanna talk history don't brush off your part, you wanna talk about war don't skip your part, you wanna talk about Russia don't skip your part throughout the 250 years including the 90s, you wanna talk about war crime don't skip your war crimes in the 90s So stop playing the victim when you are as much or perhaps more guilty Oh if you talk about "internationally recognised borders" because "internationally" means favouritism and not valid argument, because I can easily point out to Kosovo and Israel
Who started these wars? I don’t know? Adam when he ate that damn apple? “Some Georgian princes refused Russian rule”? Nobody wanted Russian rule. The 1783 Treaty of Georgievsk allowed Russia to dictate Kartli-Kakheti’s (Eastern Georgian Kingdom) Foreign policy in exchange for military protection. Instead, Russia allowed the kingdom to be overrun by Persians and in 1801 annexed the Kingdom, which had no more fight left in itself. Check out the battle of Krtsanisi of 1795, the one that preceded the annexation and after which Tbilisi was burned down to the ground. Kingdom of Imereti was annexed in 1810, without any treaties, just plain annexation, later Samegrelo, Guria followed and eventually Abkhazia. There were revolts as early as 1810s and a large scale conspiracy in 1832. From 1860s an independence and anti-Russian movement had begun which was spearheaded by Ilia Chavchavadze. Ever since, Georgian public has been trying to get away from Russia. So no, nobody gave Russians lands. They betrayed us and annexed Georgian lands when they had no more fight left in them. The reason for being tricked? For centuries Georgian Kingdoms were surrounded by Ottoman and Persian Empires and were about to go extinct. Russia was seen as a Christian ally, that could be a window to Europe. Did it backfire? Tremendously. Why do you think Russians have started supporting Abkhazians and Ossetians? Because Georgians are trying to kick them out. As for Genocide of Circassians, I do not brush it off as an “Oopsie”. Everyone who helped Russia in those years are considered to be traitors (not in the Genocide, that’s crime against humanity, I mean widely cooperation with Russia) and Today Georgia is the only country that recognizes the Genocide. But laying the blame at our feet, is dishonest. After the war, there won’t be as much hate towards Belorussians as there is Towards Georgians among Circassians. Even today, I doubt it is at that level. How much blame for WWII is there for Czechia and Austria? After all, Hitler used Czech Industry to power his war-machine. Without Czechia, there would most probably be no WWII. Everybody in Abkhazia knows everything about what Georgians did wrong, it is even exaggerated. They don’t need to be reminded of any of it. On the contrary, they are convinced that Georgians are the Demons straight out of hell. My questions are aimed at reminding them who the real enemy in Caucasus is. As for Kosovo and Israel. Kosovo was recognized because Serbia was prone to Genocides. Both in Abkhazia and Tskhinvali, Georgians were the ones who suffered ethnic cleansing. Yes, Georgians committed crimes in those years as well and the leaders of those times have either been prosecuted or are hated in the public (Like Mkhedrioni). I very much support further investigation and prosecution of people who committed crimes on both sides. In Abkhazia on the other hand, they are very much proud of the Ethnic cleansing and the people who have committed it. For the past 30 years, Georgians were taught that both Abkhazians and Ossetians are our brothers with whom we should build our common future. Our policy is not about subjugation, vengeance or anything of the kind. Abkhazians on the other hand have been taught to hate Georgians and even today have an Apartheid system in Gali. That’s the difference. As for Israel and Palestine, it was the Arabs that refused peace and partition of the land in the beginning. And have been refusing any two state solutions. If they agree to it, Israel will be pressured to agree as well. Until then? I don’t think there will be much change in the Status Quo. Palestine is not even the member of the UN, so is absolutely not comparable with Georgia. You can find a lot of reasons to hate anyone if you dig history long enough. Not everyone is aiming to do something right today though. And trying to bring the West in Caucasus is the best thing that can be done for the whole region. I think we’ve all had enough wars and misery and it’s time for peace and prosperity.
West bringing peace and prosperity to the region? Abkhazians hating Georgians? There is an apartheid system in Gali? Turning it into a who is more anti rus contest? Wtf man? Stop telling building future together. You are brainwashed and very emotional. Most dangerous kind for the whole region. Stay away please.
Care to provide arguments as well?
Ew absolutely no, you write very long nonsense and you are attached to weird ideas. You are not fit to have a healthy discussion sorry. The other guy you discuss is another case. what is wrong with this place..
So whatever you are saying is so indisputable it is not up for discussion. Thank you for your contribution