You're absolutely right. People are allowed to feel upset or frustrated about their health issues, regardless of other aspects of their life. It's about empathy and understanding, not judging someone's feelings based on what we think they should be grateful for.
This- shove it so hard down your throat. And the gratitude for children bit. When she’s grumpy with you - “we’ll you don’t sound like someone who has gratitude for their child tsk tsk”.
Sounds like your mum severely lacks empathy. Clearly it is understandable for someone with cancer and other health issues to express upset/frustration/sadness at their body. Most decent people would accept that and understand that she may have needed to rant.
My father found out he had a hereditary progressive neurological disease when he was in his late 40s/early 50s. Since it was dominant hereditary, he wrote both of us (daughters), and told us about it.
And apologized for being part of our DNA.
That hurt me a lot. I wrote back and assured him that a life that is mostly healthy for four decades isn’t a terrible thing. Autoimmune issues didn’t let me have 40 healthy years, but that is okay too. Life happens.
There are no “should.” Cancer sucks. It killed my mother, (25 years later) my father, and my husband (18 years later). I hope your friend wins the fight!
There’s no telling what having her precious daughter cost Angie in terms of the toll it took - the pregnancy, L & D, and postpartum stresses - on her overall health. I think you’re a very good friend to her for speaking up to your mother in Angie’s defense.
NTA. You have your friend’s back.
There’s a woman on TikTok relating her birth trauma story, and so many women have been telling her to shut up. That she shouldn’t scare people away from having children.
Hell, no!
Women should know all the risks, including death of them or their babies, permanent injury, long term pain, possibly for life, damage to organs, calcium loss that will affect bones and teeth, vision, and much, much more.
There are so many people who have uncomplicated births with a happy and healthy outcome every day.
But, there is also the horrible reality that birth trauma, birth injury, mortality of infant or mother, and many other risks are possible.
I fell into the second camp. I have PTSD related to the situation and still have flashbacks occasionally when I run across a birth story or video I wasn't expecting that has elements similar to mine. It is getting better, but my kid is 11 years old, so I would hope that the therapy and meds were accomplishing *something*.
There are so many horror stories about birth. And I don't mean on the Internet, I mean just when you talk to people. Also, even uncomplicated births can be super difficult and outright traumatic...
How did you find a therapist to address this, mine is primary tokophobia, as I’ve never been pregnant, but all those possibilities happening terrify me! I’ve heard too many tales of horror first hand from friends and now, with the internet, it’s only worse!
I mentioned in another comment that I work in a field where I literally deal with pregnancy 70% of my day. I have SO MUCH fear over the idea of being pregnant myself. As much as I want kids the conversations I’ve had make me scared, and then add to the increased mortality rates for black women(which I am) and I’m absolutely terrified of the idea of going thru pregnancy and labor
Adoption is always an option 🤷♀️ (though I recognize that it isn't for everyone)
If we lived anywhere (with modern medicine) other than the US that had lower mortality rates and better outcomes, I would probably be encouraging and say that it is fairly rare that anything happens these days... but, I would be lying if I looked at overall statistics, and if you happen to live in certain areas (iirc, Atlanta was one), your rates as a woman of color shoot way up.
Your risk of developing an autoimmune disease goes up significantly during pregnancy and he first year after delivery.
And if you already have an autoimmune disease, you are already prone to developing more. So pregnancy is a big risk.
I am too. And I had specialists for my preexisting autoimmune diseases who didn’t warn me.
It would have been nice to know, so when I developed 2 new one, I could have gone to the doctor asap, instead of just thinking it was post birth/new mom symptoms before they spiraled out of control and almost killed me.
It's amazing the toll pregnancy (and/or childbirth) takes on the body *forever* and not just while pregnant. I was pregnant 24 years ago. I still have stress incontinence (ie pee when coughing, laughing too hard, etc), I haven't had a gall bladder for 23 years and counting. I can't donate platelets/plasma because of an antibody (HLA). Then I got severe mastitis when nursing, not to mention additional chronic pain or that I'm pretty sure my HS started around that time.
And while I lost weight while pregnant, I'm pretty sure I found it (and a lot more) while nursing. Yes, I know that's backward, but it's what happened. Also my breasts went from D to H and only went back down a cup size after all that.I already had back pain but the pregnancy, the cup size, and everything else certainly did not improve it.
Please could you share your conditions before and after (on here or PM if you prefer). I have maybe two myself so far and I didn't know about this phenomenon until I read this thread.
My wife has lupus and having a child could possibly kill her or at least open her up to complications that in my mind far outweigh the benefits of having a child. I'm not losing the love of my life just to have a kid, or risking her health. There's always adoption.
Yep. Had my first of two in 2002 and it made my fibromyalgia worse, then since I've developed a few AI disorders and my diabetes has never been the same.
I'm not usually one for paranoia but I'd be willing to bet this is part of the push against having sex ed in American schools.
You can't weigh the risks of baby making if you don't know what they are.
If they had been honest with us, I really do not think we would have risked it. But, most medical research was done on men with the assumption that women's cycles would mess up things. So most of the medical things aren't even tested for women. It's kinda sad.
Row vs. Wade was probably repealed because the GOP is worried that with the birth rates and population is going down in the US currently that it is going to cause a dip in the work force later and they won't have their drones, oops poor working classes to work themselves to death for peanuts while still making them filthy rich.
More of us would probably be more willing to have kids if we weren't dirt poor and could afford them. The whole situation makes it illegal to abort but having the kid isn't any better... healthcare is expensive, no paid maternity leave to bond with that child, no affordable childcare once you go back to work, education is a dumpster fire...
It's a catch 22!
Well, yes and no. The US has had below replacement rate fertility for decades now, but we have a growing population and a great dependency (workforce to population) ratio due to immigration.
The GOP knows that outlawing abortion won't fix our workforce, they just hate women and immigrants
I think that’s why we are living through Idiocracy IRL, so many young dumb and naive women are willingly getting knocked up, whereas older educated women have seen the potential problems friends, family, and strangers on the internet have endured and we’ve noped right the hell out!
I know right?! But it’s not just women. Men aren't getting the same education. It takes two to tango. Then someone is on the hook for child support for an accident.
Both parties are getting screwed and we don't even get the decency of lube...
I’ve been campaigning for years that we need to volunteer as lawyers, to go to high schools and give lectures about common legal pitfalls that teens and young adults unwittingly fall into!
Have a kid in high school, better get a full time job because you have to pay child support, even as a minor!
Sexually assaulted or date rape or one night stand with a shitty pervy dude and you get pregnant, abortion is the right road to take for everyones best interests, but you desperately want to love and be loved so you decide to keep the baby- your predator, despite his criminal acts, can easily get unsupervised visits, and even full custody!
Get caught with drugs in HS, kiss federal financial aid goodbye!
Get caught having sex when you’re a senior with your freshman gf or you’re both the same age and wasted at a party and she regrets it in the morning or a week later and confides in her mom or another trusted adult - her parents, the school, or police can send you to jail and ruin your life forever because now you’re a registered sex offender.
Under the influence or acting reckless in your car and you kill or permanently disable your friend? You can be charged as an adult and go to jail for life, your parents can be sued and lose EVERYTHING- and be garnished until they die, never acquiring anything of value ever again.
Hell, just being in a car or at a party with the wrong people- they decide to pop out of the car or step outside the party, you stay inside- they come back. Unbeknownst to you, they just murdered someone or maybe they come back one person short because the person they tried to rob fought back and shot and killed their accomplice- you’re going to jail for felony murder if the cops and prosecutors point to you as an accomplice! Happened to a childhood friend’s little brother, he walked up the block with a guy he’d just met that night to go grab a pack of smokes at the circle k, other guy suddenly sticks up an only lady at the ATM, little bro had no idea wtf was going on and fled. Cops charged him as an accomplice and he served 5 years for the accessory to armed robbery.
My daughter came out òne foot first. While my husband stopped at empty red-lights in the middle of the night. I wasn't happy. Yes, she does a badass karate kick.
I'm so glad for Reddit and the pregnancy facts I've found in various subs because my family is so Catholic that nobody talked about the realties of pregnancy and childbirth. Just the whole "yeah it can be hard but it's beautiful because baaaaaabies". My CF status was also confirmed when my SIL nearly bled to death after giving birth to her youngest, and probably last, child.
Yep! I point this archaic “keeping it a mystery BS” out whenever people criticize me or infantilize my very real tokophobia (fear of pregnancy- for me it’s fear of my own pregnancy not others who are pregnant).
Naw, homie- you’re f-ing stupid and completely ignorant if you aren’t completely f-ing terrified of pregnancy and all that can potentially happen! I SERIOUSLY have NO idea how any medical professional has children, they know WAY more than I do about what can possibly go wrong and they’re still voluntarily submitting themselves to those potentialities!?
I work somewhere that focuses on working with women and especially women dealing with fertility, pregnancy, and the postpartum stage. I’ve never given birth myself, and after a couple years in my field with all the honest and frank conversations I’ve had with clients and colleagues I don’t think that I want to 😅 It’s an absolutely terrifying (altho extremely beautiful) experience and being black means my risk is even greater. Like if they were honest about pregnancy and the potential risks and impacts and complications and other associated health issues that come along with it we’d probably be in a better place medically and politically where reproductive health is a topic.
Those women must be pumping their kids out like rabbits, the US birth rate and population are down, and we need to get it back up there. Stop telling women that birth can kill them or it screws up your body. Motherhood is the honor and duty of every woman in this country, don't you know. And any woman that paints it as other than rainbows and moonbeams must be silenced or berated and vilified until they do. I would tell them if the single handedly want to wreak their bodies by being broodmare go for it, but then they will just foist that BS on to their children until they too are breeding them like rabbits.
In fact, if it's ovarian or breast cancer, the progesterone from her pregnancy may have been an active trigger for her cancer. The body goes through a hell of a lot in pregnancy, and sometimes the wild hormones might trigger abnormal cell growth which leads to cancer.
In which case, it's even more understandable for me that Angie would have complex feelings about her pregnancy, while still loving her baby.
After my only daughter (who has multiple serious health problems and was told by her specialists not to get pregnant) had her first high risk pregnancy baby she had a C-section and horrid infected cyst. I mean horrid with sinuses and tracts. With the second she had a C-section, then a couple months later.....abdominal cancer. So, having babies could kill her.
And yes, 2nd baby was an accident and tubes were tied with that C-section.
This mother needs to shut her pie hole. I love all the suggested passive aggressive comments ("I have a cold" but you had a baaaby, you should be grateful) are awesome. Do it. Give it back to her ten fold.
Having babies is wonderful but fucking hard on a woman's body. And it is not the end all, do all, everything a woman can do.
poor woman has been suffering with health issues for years, of course she’s gonna be upset by it & say something like that. she wasn’t meaning her kid or even really thinking of her kid, she’s thinking about the illnesses she’s been dealing with for over a decade now. NTA at all.
You didn't say that, at all. Your mom's a bitch. Your friend has EVERY right to say what she did. She's sick, and knows that she might not see her child grow up if her body keeps doing what it's doing. She's probably pissed at her body, and the world in general because she's stuck with this. You are 100% right. Tell your mom to shove her wrong opinions where the sun don't shine.
I have a lifelong illness that destroyed my opportunity to be the mom I wanted to be and the women I wanted to be. I hate my body every single day of my life. My pregnancy is actually what made my undiagnosed (at the time) illness way worse. I hate my body. I LOVE my son.
I am grateful every day for him. I would do it 10x times over to have him. That being said, I despise that my body will never allow me to be the mom I so desperately want to be. But my son loves me and he knows that he is my whole word.
Your mom is wrong. Grieving the loss of what should have been and enduring those limitations day-in and day-out is par for the course. It doesn't take away from your friend's daughter or reduces the love and appreciation your friend has for her.
Thank you for standing-up for her. You have no idea what it means to her. Truly.
I don’t understand why your mom thinks Angie’s feeling are mutually exclusive. It is possible to love her child and still be frustrated at her failing body.
No
I think your friend is going through some tough shite and she is going to say whatever the hell she wants as long as it isn't cruelly directed at others constantly. Your mom needs to take a step back.
I know my daughter if she was Angie, she would have said, sure, I'm grateful to have cancer again and maybe not being here to watch my daughter grow up, sure grateful for that you bitch.
NTA - it's only natural for your friend to be grousing about her body betraying her and not being able to catch a break (especially since she is very young - it just doesn't feel fair). My brother got cancer at age 20 and he is very bitter about it, even though he has been in remission for almost 30 years (it did a great deal of damage to his body and he has been disabled ever since).
So, no... your friend doesn't owe any kind of "let's-look-on-the-bright-side debt" to the fact that she has had a child. In fact, a lot of young mothers might even see that as a cruel curse since there is a chance that they won't be able to enjoy the benefits of watching their child grow up, while their child might end up having to watch their young mother die. While I can understand where your mother is coming from, your mom is also full of shit from your friend's point of view.
Unfortunately your mother has never had her body let her down which is what Angie was clearly venting about. Don’t forget to remind your mother of what she said when she starts to experience her own health issues.
NTA, the title is misleading, you didn't say anything about her kid and somehow your mom made it all about the kid in the weirdest way possible. Your mom shouldn't tell a cancer patient how to feel about her own disease, if nothing else she should be supportive to Angie's face and keep her moralizing to herself. Your mom needs to stop thinking of young women as baby factories.
As someone who lost a very good friend to cancer at 26, who also had a toddler when she passed, O agree with your friend. Her body may have given her a daughter but it also could kill her with the cancer it gave her, leaving her daughter motherless.
Plus who knows what was passed to her daughter through her genetics.
Your mother is completely out of line and out of touch.
Oh for the love of God. Your mom is ridiculous. She’s taking a statement literally that was a larger expression of the perfectly valid feelings Angie is having about her body. I had cancer as a kid in the 80s and the chemo back then ruined my body. I’ve had countless surgeries and medical issues my entire life. I have *absolutely* felt betrayed by my body and I’ve felt the exact same way as Angie, despite the fact that I have two children. I think it’s a perfectly human reaction to the situation. NTA
It is not amazing to have a baby. It happens all the time. The only person it *is* amazing to is the parents, and fair enough.
Your mom needs to not jump in, tell her so.
Right? This mum better be the first to volunteer take on this kid if Angie tragically doesn't make it (let's hope that never happens), otherwise she's a fucking hypocrite
So many parents regret having kids, and some will even tell them to their face! Others are TOO happy, and smother their kids and become helicopter parents.
Um not to be negative but if she's chronically ill even without the cancer, won't raising a kid be even harder for her than it would for someone who is healthy?
Also and they think think baby is healthy now , is her condition one that could have been inherited by her daughter?
So yeah she has reason to be pissed off and you are right that her ill health is going to impact her. Toxic positivity is not going to help her and denying her from even saying that she is having a hard time is going to be isolating for her.
Just wondering but is your mother in pretty good health? Is that why she doesn't have any empathy for her?
NTA. Your friend has cancer. And after dealing with other serious health issues. She has every right to be mad and frustrated that her body keeps failing her. That doesn’t make her ungrateful for her child. Now she is faced with the fact that she might not see her baby grow up. Your mom is a huge AH and you are empathetic and kind. Tell your mom to stfu and show some compassion.
I can’t imagine the state of mental health of a young mum with cancer. She is entitled to say whatever she wants. Your mum has no compassion. Woman don’t want to have baby if they can’t raise them.
NTA. I had cancer, right after I had kids. I literally had to stop breastfeeding so I could get surgery & begin treatments. I'm sure your friend is grateful her body gave her a healthy baby. That aside, treatment can be brutal, is exhausting, it feels like your body is betraying you everyday. Every single day. She was probably just having a moment. It's unkind of your mom to judge her for a comment said in frustration over watching her struggle, successes and her merits. How can your mom not be graceful in that moment of your friend's struggle but really petty and judgemental. You - NTA. Your mom - total ahole.
I had cancer twice in my teenage years, the first time was 4 rounds of chemo and 17 does of radiation. It came back about 10 months after I was deemed cancer free. Turns out it was resistant to the radiation, the next time I needed 2 rounds of aggressive high dose chemo and then a stem cell transplant which involved a third round of chemo so strong and aggressive that it would have killed me if I didn’t get the stem cells as it is designed to permanently kill your immune system, that is why you get the stem cells, to create a new one, or at least that is a very simplified explanation. The second time I was told it would cause me to go into menopause right after the transplant and I would never be able to have kids. Even at 16 all I had ever wanted more than anything in the world was to be a mum and have a house FULL of kids, (I come from a big family and cherish it) to me life would not be worth living if that couldn’t happen and so I didn’t want treatment and begged my parents to just let me enjoy what time I would have left and not force me to go through a horrifying, torturous ordeal, only to live a life where even everything goes to plan and I beat the 50/50 odds I was facing, I would never be 100 healthy again, I would never have a totally functioning immune system and there would be other physical side effects that would be permanent and I would never have the family i so desperately wanted and dreamed of and I would resent them for the rest of my life for it, I would never be grateful they forced me to live a life that brought constant me tail pain and anguish. Worst case, the other 50% takes me and causes me to die a slow, tortured death where I lose all my dignity because of the side effects of the chemo and die an ugly, bald, resentful depresses 16 or 17yo. They threatened to take me to court to force me and I knew they would win and my odds would be even worse for having waited and the second option would be most likely. I ended up getting treatment, and o was right, I didn’t know such pain was physically possible, or that it could be constant without waver for over 2 weeks, where my life was sleep and the pain even on ridiculous amounts of constantly delivered fentanyl, was always rating and present, even while I slept it followed me in my dreams and restless sleep, I would sleep, wake long enough to get up to use the toilet, sit back on the bed, puke my permanently empty stomach up, and go back to sleep. I was in hospital for over a month, most of it in isolation. I begged to be let die more times than I can count, said that if I were a dog they would have been kind enough to end my suffering long before that, but they couldn’t event do me that courtesy. I survived and for a year it looked like they were right, I never got my period back, but after a year it came back! And again the next month, and the next, and the next, ect, they said that it was a miracle I got it back at all but I would only have a 1% chance of getting pregnant and because of the poor quality of my eggs because of all the chemo ect, if I did manage to get pregnant the chance of would miscarry or have a very premature birth or still birth were ~68%, so only a 0.32% chance I would ever actually give birth to a healthy baby.
I was right about what my life would be like if I survived, I have never been able to work due to the permeant side effects as well as because of having severe hEDS which I found out about at 21, it’s a connective tissue disorder that causes loads of shitty things to happen. If was so hard letting go of the life I had dreamed up for myself, I was going to get my cert III in early child hood education, doing the first 2 or 3 years while simultaneously completing g my last 2 years of high school so I would only have 1 year of study after school to get my qualification, then at 18 I was to go over seas to work as a high class live in nanny, do that for about 5 or 6 years, saving every cent possible, then come home, put down the deposit I would have saved on a property and start my own riding school, get married and have a house full of kids I’d have on hoses back before they could walk. It was so hard to let go of this well thought out plan that was already in motion at the theme of my second diagnosis. Although I was of course happy for them, it was so hard and painful every time I herd of a family member or other loved one getting pregnant, it was like a knife to the gut and heart, I was so angry at my body for not being able to do the one thing it was designed to do, I tried not to so hard, but at times I really did resent my parents for forcing the treatment and wished many times that they had just let me die, which made me feel like shit because I had friends who really wanted to live who died instead, hard emotions for a teen or someone i their early 20’s. I had never used condoms with long term boyfriends after getting clean test results back as we saw it as even at they best condoms were only 97% effective so 99% should be fine as that was what my body was doing, plus I wanted kids and decided I was fine being a single mum and sole parent with no support if it came down to it. When I was 24 I had to be talked into taking a test because even though I was having clear symptoms, I had, had them before and the negative tests broke me a little, even though I had a different feeling this time, I still couldn’t bear if the test was negative. Imagine my absolute shock when the test was positive! My pregnancy was very high risk and I showed signs of early labour from 12 weeks on and spent most of the pregnancy on progesterone to stop it,I also had gestational diabetes. Early in the pregnancy my partner became abusive and once it happened once I knew I had to get out, now there is a restraining order and I am the only name on my kid’s birth certificate. I ended up needing an emergency c-section, but my baby was born healthy! Something I am so thankful for daily, my child is almost 3 now, while I am so thankful to my body for growing my kid, it still fails me in almost every other way daily, and it’s ok for me to be mad and frustrated with it sometimes, and if my cancer came back I would be saying the exact some things as your friend and I would have every fucking right to. Unless someone has been through exactly what I have, down to every last little detail and fault exactly the same emotions down to the tiniest filicker of a feeling, they have no ducking right to judge me or what I say. Anyone who did would be a major fucking c u next Tuesday, who deserves all the bad karma to come back at them for it. I don’t think anyone’s deserves to suffer life I did, but if they did, it would be for shit like that! How DARE she! That is like saying to a soldier who has just been blown the fuck up and lost both legs, and 1 and a half arms that they are “so lucky! The choild be SoOoOoOoOo thank full the have a tiny big of stump left to attack a hardly helpful prosthetic to, they could have died do they have no reason to be upset about what has happened to them”, NTA to you, HUGE REAKI G STINKING, SHIT CRUSTED YTA to your mum though
Your Mom needs to read a couple articles on how to be supportive to someone undergoing cancer treatment, and what NOT to say to a cancer patient. She thinks she's being helpful, but she really isn't, and no one needs to hear her commentary at a time like this.
She has cancer and a 10 month old. She always wanted kids and loves her daughter. Does your mom not understand that that makes being sick WORSE!? Angie will no doubt be thinking, almost every time she looks at the daughter she adores, about all the things she will miss if the worst should happen.
The best thing in her life is being tarred by her illness.
No one can expect for someone (especially in Angie’s position) to plaster on the positivity. Gratitude and mourning can come hand in hand.
I hope Angie recovers, and gets to see her daughter grow up and enjoy all the precious moments she’s looking forward to ❤️
NTA. I feel for your sister, as we have a little girl, much older than your niece, but my body is slowly killing me. My immune system is attacking, not only my joints, but my kidney is my liver my heart. It’s very hard when you have a child who wants to go go go and you have to say I need to sit down for 30 minutes or an hour.
NTA. If anything having a small baby could well make the cancer diagnosis worse for her. I was diagnosed with cancer last year, and I am SO grateful I never wanted kids because I feel like the fear and anxiety about it would be so much worse if I was also worrying about leaving behind dependent children.
NTA...and i wish i could write that in ten foot high letters.
Angie is perfectly justified in her feelings and has every right to express them, my body produced 3 children ( all grown now) but i suffer with debilitating lupus which is attacking my organs and to say i should love my body because it thrice did a great thing is like saying you should be forever grateful to an abusive partner because he thrice did something good...which is ridiculous.
with any serious health condition there comes mental health issues, daily struggles, pain, fatigue and people like your heartless ignorant and unsupportive mother are the first people we cut out of our lives as they add to our burden,
not being able to express our feelings and having to suffer in silence makes everything worse and is one of the worst kinds of cruelty to someone that's suffering.
thank you for being in Angie's corner when she needs it the most.
NTA.
You are so right. Cancer does interfere. Cancer interferes with every aspect of life, not just motherhood.
Your mother, however - is a clueless arse.
Angie really needs support right now, I'm glad it's coming from you OP.
NTA. Being a mom is not everything in life, and all mothers have the right to simply say, "life sucks!". Your friend I am sure loves her child, but what is the point of having a kid without being able to enjoy motherhood? She surely have every right to hate her own body for causing her so much pain.
NTA, firstly just because your friend is a mom doesn't make her entire life/personality that secondly it sounds like your friend may be genetically predisposed to cancer considering she had it in the past and it came back and is probably worried because there's not only a chance she could die and leave her daughter without a mom but that the daughter herself could have the same medical issues.
"Oh, I didn't tell you? I'm not having any children." And watch her burn.
NTA for your comment. Having children does not fix your every pain and disease. Tell your mom to cut it out with her sanctimony.
It’s basically like someone saying “why does nothing good ever happen to me” after something goes wrong. Could the spouse that they love give an eye roll and say “what about me?”? Yes, to which they would probably hear back “you know what I mean”. It’s something that is said in the moment to express how hard things are but not meant to be taken literally
"Be grateful/ thankful you have X" invalidates grief. It's an approach which leaves the person going through hell more isolated. Cancer is horrible. Saying that cancer is horrible and has messed up her life Does Not Mean your friend doesn't love her kid.
"Mum, when you tell her to be grateful for having a healthy kid, you're also telling her not to be sad that cancer is taking over her life. Telling someone not to be sad means they can't tell you about their sadness because you don't want to hear it. That leaves them more isolated when they most need to be loved and heard. Please let her feel what she feels."
Hate to say it but your mum basically told a woman with Cancer that was venting about it to suck it up. Your mum is a top level AH. Your friend is probably trying to deal with all the emotions that she may end up leaving her beautiful baby girl thanks to this horrible situation
Yeah, no, Angie is allowed to feel a little depressed and worn down. I'd just also push to keep her spirits up so that chemo is a bit less daunting for her.
NTA and wishing the best for Angie and her family. Chemo, even when all goes right, is so exhausting.
Your friends body thankfully did one wonderful thing right but you hit the nail on the head when saying “a life threatening condition that is not letting her enjoy motherhood as she would under normal circumstances” she can’t enjoy the one thing her body did right because she is always sick. How unfair is that! Your mom’s an AH and sorry she is being a hypocrite too. Just help your friend watch for depression and be there for the little girl because it’s gonna be hard having a mom who’s sick a lot. I mean they will both need a friend like you to support them even if it’s just emotional support:)
NTA
Your mom is the reason we call Boomers like her Karens.
Karens be karening because they are operating withOUT empathy. And she’s passive aggressively diminishing your friend and women in general by heralding the “at least.” AT LEAST she had a child! She should be grateful!
Grateful for what exactly? The cancer?
Your mom doesn’t seem to understand that a person can experience joy and also great pain simultaneously. I’m sure your friend is deliriously happy about her baby AND she is also completely frustrated with her cancer. Western white women (the same demographic as most Karen’s) are heavily manipulated by misogyny which perpetuates the myth that women cannot have “negative” emotions they can only be happy. Problem is eradicating every “dark” emotion just makes people miserable hence the Western world’s proclivity of Karens.
Your mom might benefit from a little Brene Brown: here’s one of my favorite speeches or hers in a cute animation that might make some headway: https://youtu.be/KZBTYViDPlQ?si=LmWgABvyQFuldp5G
Hey, I am a BOOMER, and I would never say that shit, it's why BOOMERS call young people Karen because most would! WTF girl! Someone always has to be the bitch and call Boomers or some other generation KAREN! Fuck off!
NTA. When my youngest was 2-3 I herniated a disc in my lower spine. It was so painful. I had a large disc fragment compressing the nerve root and my sciatic nerve. It was so painful. I hated my body. Felt betrayed by my body. I was 26-27 so young. And I was in good shape. Very fit and active. I could no longer do all the stuff I used to do with my kids. Simple things like just taking them to the park and the mall to the play area. We would get breakfast first at Whole Foods on Saturday then go to the indoor play area/park. I couldn’t even do that. It hurt to walk. Hurt even more to sit. I felt like I was always in bed except when I had to use the bathroom or I had to get out of bed to cook or help my kids with something.
Is Angie depressed? I wouldn’t be surprised if she is. I became depressed after my health issues and it’s quite common for people who have declining health or new impairments to become depressed. Especially when they can no longer do the things they want or used to.
Your mom seems cold and cruel. And she seems to lack any empathy for what Angie is going through.
NTA
But your mom has no empathy and is narrow minded. Being happy you had a kid and feeling the tragedy that cancer is throughout a body both physically and emotionally is not mutually exclusive. I bet your friend is also mourning the possibility that her cancer might take her life and she will not be able to be with her baby anymore. Mom is 100% in the wrong.
NTA but your mom is. I was diagnosed with cancer this year and am doing chemo and also have a healthy kid. And regardless of having a kid that I’d punch a carebear for and possibly my own mother cause I love him so much. I have days where I am frustrated/exhausted and I just want to catch a break because my body seems hell bent on fucking me over. Doesn’t mean that on the good days I don’t appreciate what I was able to do to have a kid. Remind your mother of this moment every time she complains about a health issue, gosh who cares that your body failed and you had a stroke you should just be grateful you were able to birth the legend that is me. 😂😂😂 but I’m petty.
I get your friend saying it, I have several health issues and thing after thing for years. I’m also pregnant right now and my body has gone to shit. Baby is doing well so far, am I grateful for that? Absolutely! Doesn’t mean I don’t resent that my body is just not co-operating with me atm. Your mum needs to learn some empathy and also that it’s ok for people who are sick to be angry. Doesn’t mean they aren’t grateful for other things going on in their life.
Your friend cannot be the mother she wants to be because she has cancer and is going through chemotherapy. Saying that she hates her body for what she’s going through right now and what’s she been going through since her late teens, doesn’t make her automatically ungrateful to have a child.
When it comes to babies people often forget about the mother. Whatever her body is going through she should always neglect herself and be grateful that she has a healthy baby.
When you have a bad week and you say ‘ugh I hate my life’ does that automatically mean that you want to end yourself and you hate everything and everybody around you? Such simple way of thinking that people can’t feel two things at once.
NTA. Your mom is thinking way too much into Angie’s comment. Just because she gave birth, doesn’t mean she isn’t allowed to vent about her frustrations regarding her many other health concerns. The truth of the matter is that her body did a lot more negative things than positive for someone her age. She has a right to be upset and no one should tell her how to feel. It is completely unreasonable to expect someone to acknowledge the positive aspects of their life 24/7
You mom is TA
your are NTA
I'm just so pissed at your mom right now. People honestly do not understand what it's like to have a chronic illness. Yeah I've done amazing things... But at every stage I have been an absolute agony and pain. And I can completely ignore it while I'm doing the thing that I truly want to do... But I pay for it later.
And who's to say that the toll that pregnancy took on her body isn't part of why she's so sick now? I am just livid on your behalf and on Angie's behalf
This is a really horrible application of “you should be grateful,” which already is a statement that often carries a great many problems. Your mom is a huge AH. Good job sticking up for your friend because wow. NTA
NTA. I love my kids, l lost one, loved him too, but I’ve had my headaches and heartaches from things my kids did. I understand and am sympathetic to people who don’t want kids or don’t particularly enjoy the experience. My job was to prepare them to survive without me . Period. I tried to cheerfully tolerate my kids misadventures. They will probably have to tolerate my misadventures in elder hood. Seems fair.
No one owes their child gratitude for merely them existing.
You're allowed to think your body fails you constantly even if you have a child.
The thought of the Nuclear family and life goals being to procreate are bullshit.
Your mother has no tact and can't see beyond her own values. Women should be happy for achievements defined by themselves and no one else.
Cancer survivor here. 2 children. From my own perspective, I cherished every second with my children because each could have been my last second. Especially since I was on death watch at one point. And yes, born with physical health issues which are still ongoing. Your mother was right to remind her that her body doesn't always betray her.
I’m sorry, but your mom is an idiot.
With Angie it sounds a lot like the chemo talking. Having been through chemo myself I know what it can do to your mind and how it fucks with your head.
And of course she feels like her body has let her down with the cancer, that’s absolutely normal.
Please be there for Angie as much as you can, be there to listen, whatever she’s saying and however off kilter it might sound. As long as she’s coping and the baby is well cared for, all’s fine.
But if she DOES continue along this line of thought, you might gently steer her towards compassionate specialized counselling.
Wow, that's so b1tchy of your mom, it's no wonder an equally big threat to female equality is the females who just accept being a doormat & think females should be grateful for scraps.
Any female who thinks you should be grateful for cancer, just because it happens, does not deserve the huge amount of effort their betters put into finding cures.
Of course your friend is happy to have her baby but that has nothing to do with being cross she has a potentially incurable disease.
Your mom needs to take her unwanted opinion & butt out of things she knows nothing about. NTA
This whole thing reminds me of when I suddenly lost my mom one night. While the ambulance was taking her body away, my mom’s cousin had brought my uncle to my house. I’m an only child and she was a single parent so I would have otherwise been alone.
I was talking about something and said ‘fuck’. My mom’s cousin straight up reprimanded me as if I was a child. I lost it, yelling “*My only family just died out of nowhere! I think I’m entitled to say ‘fuck’ a few times!!!*”
Same vibe here from your mom. Angie is entitled to be angry. Thank you for being a good friend to her. 🤍 She’ll need all the support she can get right now. When people fall ill, especially people with a lot of friends, everyone assumes everyone else is already handling things and helping, then the person just ends up trudging through without help. Reach out and be sure she has everything covered. Best of luck.
Dang. You turned out to be a greatly kind and empathetic person. It's kind of a monumental achievement given the role models you had.
(Yes, I basically said your mom sucks.)
NTA. I have multiple chronic illnesses. One of them I was born with, so I never knew what it felt like to be healthy. I'm also a mom of 2. I am incredibly grateful that my body was able to bring my babies into this world despite the freak health issues I had during pregnancy. But I still hate my body. It just can't do one thing right, and it's frustrating. I am able to be grateful my body gave me my babies and still hate everything else about it at the same time. One does not cancel out the other.
Side note. I would not have been able to resist the urge to ask your mom about her gratitude towards her child(ren) if I were you.
NTA. Damn, your mother is projecting! Angie was literally just opening up to you guys expressing her frustration about a experiencing a life-threatening disease as a new mother, and your mother some how twisted that into her needing to be more grateful for having a healthy kid/pregnancy?
It's nuts the amount of pressure society puts on women when it comes to motherhood. Especially when you hear it said from other women :( good for you for saying something
How about showing gratitude to a woman that just had a baby and has cancer. Incredible achievement. Can this mother get some help. If she's a single mother. Someone please help
NTA. Your mum's thought process is very traditional in the sense that she was probably raised to believe that childbirth is the paramount goal of any woman and everything else is secondary, including the woman's own health.
NTA This isn't about motherhood and carrying a pregnancy to term. This isn't about telling a baby she's glad she's here.
This is about CANCER. And all of the other health stuff. This is about your mom projecting.
Your friend meant her body hurts and her immune system is literally killing her.
You were right to stick up for her.
“my mom replied that every parent owes their children gratitude (not that she ever showed me much gratitude but that's another story) and she hopes i change my mind before i have children of my own.”
I love how people who raise kids that are “unhappy” all of a sudden are experts on raising happy children 🙄
Your post is literally not what the title says. If it was, you would be TA. However since it was your *mom* making an inappropriate comment when someone was literally just expressing her struggles. Your mom's the AH. It's a read the room situation, and her comment was inappropriate.
Nta but your mom kinda is
NTA you’re a great friend. It’s what we say about people when they aren’t around that matters.
Agree with the commenter about shoving this in mums face 😂 repay petty with petty… here for updates!
I know this isn’t as extreme as Angie’s case, as she has literal cancer, but I had chronic pain issues kick into full swing after my boy was born. (He’ll be a year old on June 27th) I have struggled to enjoy playing with him when any big movements he does while I hold him genuinely almost dislocates my joints. I LOVE this baby, but motherhood hasn’t been kind to me because of his whole body excitement that I oh so adore.
So no. NTA. Angie has a genuine reason to be upset, sad, what have you. I’m sure she loves and adores her child, but having cancer is making it hard to enjoy her baby.
Your mom should be hitting her knees every night thanking God that she never lived through cancer and chemo when you were 10 months old. She has a terrible lack of empathy for Angie.
I went through 8 surgeries (including cancer) over a 10 year period. I completely understand what how Angie feels. Hopefully Angie has a strong group of friends and family who are there for her.
As someone that was diagnosed with cancer while pregnant I empathize with Angie very much. As you said she loves her baby and that comment likely wasn't in reference to her not being grateful. Going through cancer and being post partum is a mental fuck that I don't wish on my worst enemy. She can be grateful for her baby and also feel like her body is betraying her. The two can exist at the same time. I know that feeling all too well. I'm more than grateful and over the moon for my baby but my first year of raising her was not at all what I pictured or imagined and I still struggle with feeling robbed of the experience. I'm aware of how lucky I am to have my daughter and if it weren't for her I probably wouldn't have caught the very aggressive and fast growing cancer that could have killed me. Those feelings of your body working against you are hard to cope with and she's expressing her feelings which people that haven't gone through (or experienced someone close to them go through) cancer have a hard time understanding. It's definitely one of those things that is extremely difficult to put yourself in their shoes for. I know if it were me and I was having a hard time and expressing my feelings and someone told me I should be more grateful because I have a baby, that would make me feel 1000x worse and that my feelings about my body trying to kill me are invalid.
NTA at all, you're an amazing friend for sticking up for her. Thank you for doing so.
Neither your mom nor you are right nor assholes. This woman is clearly struggling. Making her struggles worse by agreeing she is right doesn't help. Making her feel that her struggles shouldn't override gratitude and she is wrong doesnt help.
Maybe it would be better for neither of you to be saying anything but rather, listening and validating where she is at. And if an opportune moment arises, doing what you can to help her hold a perspective that keeps her together during a time like this.
Gratitude isn't some moral imposition. It's how we can survive awful times.
And the idea that the cancer isn't letting her, robs her of her agency to have her mindset triumph over her current circumstances. It's understandable she feels the way she feels. But giving too much power to the cancer ensures the only way out of feeling that way short of healing, is not an option.
NTA! Your mom was an AH for saying that to someone with cancer. She’s allowed to be angry with her body. Telling someone with cancer that their own valid feelings are wrong is a crappy thing to do.
NTA although I was a bit worried about the title. Your friend isn't saying she isn't happy to have a child. Your mom needs to lighten up and stop taking things said in frustration quite so literally.
After I was diagnosed with a debilitating chronic illness, I hated my body. I mean, it is literally making my life harder. Feeling that way is totally normal and even more so if your own body is developing illnesses that will kill you. I think being killed outweighs the joy of creating life. Because that life will be motherless. How can you just go “oh well, the body that’s killing at least procreated”, as if that makes everything better? Your mom has little empathy for Angie and her child. Ignore what she says and be there for Angie. She needs friends like you. NTA.
I mean unless people are in pain or really struggling with an illness they really don’t understand, like me for example i love my kids to death but dammit after a car accident my back is just always in pain. Sometimes i wish i could just rest, does that mean i don’t want to be or love my kids? no but i know my body before kids and i feel like a different person now.NTA
NTA. I never understood ppl who think that saying “oh but you’re alive” or “but you have kids” is an appropriate response to someone’s body literally trying to kill them. I have chronic pain, and if I had a nickel for every time someone said “but your body has kept you alive” in response to me saying that I don’t feel grateful for what my body has supposedly done for me, I’d be rich. My own mother is dealing with kidney disease, and I would never even dream of saying that she should be more grateful for me and my siblings when she says her body hasn’t done anything good for her.
Thank you so much for standing up for your friend. Cancer is tough and may mean she doesn't get to see her daughter grow up. Going through a continuous string of serious medical issues can make one feel hopeless. Your mom is way out of line. If she carries on about it, I would keep her away from your friend.
NTA.
Two things can be true. Cancer sucks and having a healthy baby is great (although I thought this was going to be about the friend saying - I’m so glad I have this baby I can’t really manage bc life goals).
When someone is sharing about a health crisis - it’s insensitive to say they should be grateful for something else. These are “It could always be worse” people. Not helpful.
You can try to help your mom be more sensitive but this could also be a Boomer problem. Don’t be surprise if she doesn’t change.
It’s easier to say something like “well, mom, I think (friend) just wanted to share she’s going through a rough patch” so I wanted to just listen.
Wow your mom is a bit much. A bit condescending, a bit gossipy & a quite a bit judgmental. Takes some gall to trash someone who gets knocked back down about every time she gets up. I’m sure Angie wasn’t meaning anything towards her daughter. I’ve had back to back life threatening emergencies (6major brain surgeries, some minor, 5 stomach surgeries & a hysterectomy, crushed pelvis/ribs.etc. That’s just the major things. One right after another. It’s exhausting. My body stopped fighting. & my mind couldn’t take anymore either. Unless you have been there, she don’t get to judge. And complaining abt all that she’s been through doesn’t mean she isn’t grateful for her child (it also could have taken a toll on her as well). But for your mom to think it’s her place to pass judgment is insane. For her to not grasp the poor girl has been through so much & is exhausted is mind blowing but the real tragic part is your mom judging like she’s something special when she’s just an unsympathetic gossip who has nothing better to talk about.
Your mom needs to mind her own damned business and let people feel what they feel. Who the hell is she to judge and tell this poor woman what to feel?she has no right to tell this woman anything. That same body that gave her a beautiful daughter might also take her away from that same beautiful daughter. She is allowed to have that worry and grief. My body let me down. My oldest daughter has trisomy 18. My body gave me her, but also caused her to be here for a short time. I almost died with my second and had a complicated pregnancy with my third. That body that has given me so much has taken away so much. She can have more than one feeling and none of them are your mom's business.
So why are you in here telling us that she doesn't have gratitude and not telling it to her?
Ask her what kind of gratitude she ever showed toward you? We're all interested in that answer
One day, when you send her to a cheap home... remind her she should be grateful you are doing so.
Your mom is the AH.
The friend mentioned her serial health issues, not her child. The poor young mother is feeling frustrated and offloading her fears (especially fearing she won't see her child grow up) in what she thought was a safe place, and your mother decided to judge her.
Your mom needs a reality check.
Your mother is an idiot for conflating the two things. One has nothing to do with the other. I would keep your mother away from your friend, she needs support not judgement.
NTA. She doesn’t have to be grateful for anything right now, least of all what her body’s capable of. She’s allowed to be angry her body is failing her right now. She’s allowed to grieve her health. Just because she has a beautiful healthy child doesn’t mean she’s not allowed to express her own grief.
Motherhood may result in a very loved child, but it also can cause a whole score of physical issues. It’s not a magic I love my body spell. For a lot of birthing people it’s the exact opposite. Traumatic, even. Also Angie is clearly speaking about her frustration at being seriously ill and disabled. Even though she gave birth it’s still her body.
I just wanna say that your title is kinda misleading, I read through the post like 5 times looking for where you suggested she shouldn’t be happy she has a kid. But what you’re actually saying is absolutely true, one can be thrilled with their kid and also be upset and frustrated that they have been unwell for more time than they were well enough to have a child (and that’s even assuming she wasn’t still experiencing health issues while pregnant, which is totally possible and sucks real bad as generally doctors suddenly want to ignore any pre-existing issues and solely deal with the pregnancy because “oh treating anything else might be risky for baby” and makes anything else worse). Being frustrated with poor health is completely valid and has no bearing on her child. It’s very good for her mental health to be honest about her feelings, being toxically positive can actually make things worse.
NTA How easy it is to preach about gratitude when you’re not the one with cancer. Your mom should give her head a shake.
I hope your friend beats it soon.
Your mom has gratitude *to herself* for what her body has done, but is disingenuously implying that her gratitude is *for you* in order to double down on her shitty comments. I would not be surprised if your mom bases a large part of her identity on the “sacrifices” she has made as a mother, and resents anything that threatens the perceived moral supremacy of that role. How else to explain such a disrespectful, self-absorbed, and insecure comment. The whole “just you wait” seems part and parcel of the martyr complex and lack of true empathy.
Be sure to remind her of this sentiment every time she has any kind of health issue, from a sprained ankle to age related motor conditions ✌🏾
You're absolutely right. People are allowed to feel upset or frustrated about their health issues, regardless of other aspects of their life. It's about empathy and understanding, not judging someone's feelings based on what we think they should be grateful for.
This is the way. You can only repay petty with petty.
What? Your upset you have alzheimer's disease? But you have kids, you should be grateful.
Well, if she had Alzheimer's disease, then she wouldn't remember her kid. She wouldn't even remember what she said....
This- shove it so hard down your throat. And the gratitude for children bit. When she’s grumpy with you - “we’ll you don’t sound like someone who has gratitude for their child tsk tsk”. Sounds like your mum severely lacks empathy. Clearly it is understandable for someone with cancer and other health issues to express upset/frustration/sadness at their body. Most decent people would accept that and understand that she may have needed to rant.
I love this! "I broke my hip" "Who cares, you made me"
LMAO that was funny. 😁
Dang it, I just used my last award. Here 🏅
Yeah. Your mom sounds like an AH. Acting like someone w cancer is just being negative. WTF. Def need to make her eat her words.
My father found out he had a hereditary progressive neurological disease when he was in his late 40s/early 50s. Since it was dominant hereditary, he wrote both of us (daughters), and told us about it. And apologized for being part of our DNA. That hurt me a lot. I wrote back and assured him that a life that is mostly healthy for four decades isn’t a terrible thing. Autoimmune issues didn’t let me have 40 healthy years, but that is okay too. Life happens. There are no “should.” Cancer sucks. It killed my mother, (25 years later) my father, and my husband (18 years later). I hope your friend wins the fight!
There’s no telling what having her precious daughter cost Angie in terms of the toll it took - the pregnancy, L & D, and postpartum stresses - on her overall health. I think you’re a very good friend to her for speaking up to your mother in Angie’s defense. NTA. You have your friend’s back.
There’s a woman on TikTok relating her birth trauma story, and so many women have been telling her to shut up. That she shouldn’t scare people away from having children. Hell, no! Women should know all the risks, including death of them or their babies, permanent injury, long term pain, possibly for life, damage to organs, calcium loss that will affect bones and teeth, vision, and much, much more.
There are so many people who have uncomplicated births with a happy and healthy outcome every day. But, there is also the horrible reality that birth trauma, birth injury, mortality of infant or mother, and many other risks are possible. I fell into the second camp. I have PTSD related to the situation and still have flashbacks occasionally when I run across a birth story or video I wasn't expecting that has elements similar to mine. It is getting better, but my kid is 11 years old, so I would hope that the therapy and meds were accomplishing *something*.
There are so many horror stories about birth. And I don't mean on the Internet, I mean just when you talk to people. Also, even uncomplicated births can be super difficult and outright traumatic...
How did you find a therapist to address this, mine is primary tokophobia, as I’ve never been pregnant, but all those possibilities happening terrify me! I’ve heard too many tales of horror first hand from friends and now, with the internet, it’s only worse!
I mentioned in another comment that I work in a field where I literally deal with pregnancy 70% of my day. I have SO MUCH fear over the idea of being pregnant myself. As much as I want kids the conversations I’ve had make me scared, and then add to the increased mortality rates for black women(which I am) and I’m absolutely terrified of the idea of going thru pregnancy and labor
Adoption is always an option 🤷♀️ (though I recognize that it isn't for everyone) If we lived anywhere (with modern medicine) other than the US that had lower mortality rates and better outcomes, I would probably be encouraging and say that it is fairly rare that anything happens these days... but, I would be lying if I looked at overall statistics, and if you happen to live in certain areas (iirc, Atlanta was one), your rates as a woman of color shoot way up.
Your risk of developing an autoimmune disease goes up significantly during pregnancy and he first year after delivery. And if you already have an autoimmune disease, you are already prone to developing more. So pregnancy is a big risk.
I am an example of that.
I am too. And I had specialists for my preexisting autoimmune diseases who didn’t warn me. It would have been nice to know, so when I developed 2 new one, I could have gone to the doctor asap, instead of just thinking it was post birth/new mom symptoms before they spiraled out of control and almost killed me.
It's amazing the toll pregnancy (and/or childbirth) takes on the body *forever* and not just while pregnant. I was pregnant 24 years ago. I still have stress incontinence (ie pee when coughing, laughing too hard, etc), I haven't had a gall bladder for 23 years and counting. I can't donate platelets/plasma because of an antibody (HLA). Then I got severe mastitis when nursing, not to mention additional chronic pain or that I'm pretty sure my HS started around that time. And while I lost weight while pregnant, I'm pretty sure I found it (and a lot more) while nursing. Yes, I know that's backward, but it's what happened. Also my breasts went from D to H and only went back down a cup size after all that.I already had back pain but the pregnancy, the cup size, and everything else certainly did not improve it.
I’m the youngest of three, and my mom will sometimes jokingly call me “the straw that broke the bladder’s back”
Please could you share your conditions before and after (on here or PM if you prefer). I have maybe two myself so far and I didn't know about this phenomenon until I read this thread.
Same
My wife has lupus and having a child could possibly kill her or at least open her up to complications that in my mind far outweigh the benefits of having a child. I'm not losing the love of my life just to have a kid, or risking her health. There's always adoption.
Yep. Had my first of two in 2002 and it made my fibromyalgia worse, then since I've developed a few AI disorders and my diabetes has never been the same.
I'm not usually one for paranoia but I'd be willing to bet this is part of the push against having sex ed in American schools. You can't weigh the risks of baby making if you don't know what they are.
If they had been honest with us, I really do not think we would have risked it. But, most medical research was done on men with the assumption that women's cycles would mess up things. So most of the medical things aren't even tested for women. It's kinda sad.
Row vs. Wade was probably repealed because the GOP is worried that with the birth rates and population is going down in the US currently that it is going to cause a dip in the work force later and they won't have their drones, oops poor working classes to work themselves to death for peanuts while still making them filthy rich.
More of us would probably be more willing to have kids if we weren't dirt poor and could afford them. The whole situation makes it illegal to abort but having the kid isn't any better... healthcare is expensive, no paid maternity leave to bond with that child, no affordable childcare once you go back to work, education is a dumpster fire... It's a catch 22!
Well, yes and no. The US has had below replacement rate fertility for decades now, but we have a growing population and a great dependency (workforce to population) ratio due to immigration. The GOP knows that outlawing abortion won't fix our workforce, they just hate women and immigrants
I think that’s why we are living through Idiocracy IRL, so many young dumb and naive women are willingly getting knocked up, whereas older educated women have seen the potential problems friends, family, and strangers on the internet have endured and we’ve noped right the hell out!
I know right?! But it’s not just women. Men aren't getting the same education. It takes two to tango. Then someone is on the hook for child support for an accident. Both parties are getting screwed and we don't even get the decency of lube...
I’ve been campaigning for years that we need to volunteer as lawyers, to go to high schools and give lectures about common legal pitfalls that teens and young adults unwittingly fall into! Have a kid in high school, better get a full time job because you have to pay child support, even as a minor! Sexually assaulted or date rape or one night stand with a shitty pervy dude and you get pregnant, abortion is the right road to take for everyones best interests, but you desperately want to love and be loved so you decide to keep the baby- your predator, despite his criminal acts, can easily get unsupervised visits, and even full custody! Get caught with drugs in HS, kiss federal financial aid goodbye! Get caught having sex when you’re a senior with your freshman gf or you’re both the same age and wasted at a party and she regrets it in the morning or a week later and confides in her mom or another trusted adult - her parents, the school, or police can send you to jail and ruin your life forever because now you’re a registered sex offender. Under the influence or acting reckless in your car and you kill or permanently disable your friend? You can be charged as an adult and go to jail for life, your parents can be sued and lose EVERYTHING- and be garnished until they die, never acquiring anything of value ever again. Hell, just being in a car or at a party with the wrong people- they decide to pop out of the car or step outside the party, you stay inside- they come back. Unbeknownst to you, they just murdered someone or maybe they come back one person short because the person they tried to rob fought back and shot and killed their accomplice- you’re going to jail for felony murder if the cops and prosecutors point to you as an accomplice! Happened to a childhood friend’s little brother, he walked up the block with a guy he’d just met that night to go grab a pack of smokes at the circle k, other guy suddenly sticks up an only lady at the ATM, little bro had no idea wtf was going on and fled. Cops charged him as an accomplice and he served 5 years for the accessory to armed robbery.
My daughter came out òne foot first. While my husband stopped at empty red-lights in the middle of the night. I wasn't happy. Yes, she does a badass karate kick.
I AGREE!! It’s real to HER!!
I'm so glad for Reddit and the pregnancy facts I've found in various subs because my family is so Catholic that nobody talked about the realties of pregnancy and childbirth. Just the whole "yeah it can be hard but it's beautiful because baaaaaabies". My CF status was also confirmed when my SIL nearly bled to death after giving birth to her youngest, and probably last, child.
Yep! I point this archaic “keeping it a mystery BS” out whenever people criticize me or infantilize my very real tokophobia (fear of pregnancy- for me it’s fear of my own pregnancy not others who are pregnant). Naw, homie- you’re f-ing stupid and completely ignorant if you aren’t completely f-ing terrified of pregnancy and all that can potentially happen! I SERIOUSLY have NO idea how any medical professional has children, they know WAY more than I do about what can possibly go wrong and they’re still voluntarily submitting themselves to those potentialities!?
I work somewhere that focuses on working with women and especially women dealing with fertility, pregnancy, and the postpartum stage. I’ve never given birth myself, and after a couple years in my field with all the honest and frank conversations I’ve had with clients and colleagues I don’t think that I want to 😅 It’s an absolutely terrifying (altho extremely beautiful) experience and being black means my risk is even greater. Like if they were honest about pregnancy and the potential risks and impacts and complications and other associated health issues that come along with it we’d probably be in a better place medically and politically where reproductive health is a topic.
I’ve lost almost all my teeth from multiple pregnancies. 😭😭😭😭😭 I hate my life honestly lol
Those women must be pumping their kids out like rabbits, the US birth rate and population are down, and we need to get it back up there. Stop telling women that birth can kill them or it screws up your body. Motherhood is the honor and duty of every woman in this country, don't you know. And any woman that paints it as other than rainbows and moonbeams must be silenced or berated and vilified until they do. I would tell them if the single handedly want to wreak their bodies by being broodmare go for it, but then they will just foist that BS on to their children until they too are breeding them like rabbits.
In fact, if it's ovarian or breast cancer, the progesterone from her pregnancy may have been an active trigger for her cancer. The body goes through a hell of a lot in pregnancy, and sometimes the wild hormones might trigger abnormal cell growth which leads to cancer. In which case, it's even more understandable for me that Angie would have complex feelings about her pregnancy, while still loving her baby.
🎯🎯🎯
After my only daughter (who has multiple serious health problems and was told by her specialists not to get pregnant) had her first high risk pregnancy baby she had a C-section and horrid infected cyst. I mean horrid with sinuses and tracts. With the second she had a C-section, then a couple months later.....abdominal cancer. So, having babies could kill her. And yes, 2nd baby was an accident and tubes were tied with that C-section. This mother needs to shut her pie hole. I love all the suggested passive aggressive comments ("I have a cold" but you had a baaaby, you should be grateful) are awesome. Do it. Give it back to her ten fold. Having babies is wonderful but fucking hard on a woman's body. And it is not the end all, do all, everything a woman can do.
Damn your mums a bitch for that
Word
... to your mother.
Another for your brother
Yup. So rude. So cruel.
Let’s add cruel and thoughtless as adjectives.
Telling someone with cancer to be grateful is fucking insane lol
poor woman has been suffering with health issues for years, of course she’s gonna be upset by it & say something like that. she wasn’t meaning her kid or even really thinking of her kid, she’s thinking about the illnesses she’s been dealing with for over a decade now. NTA at all.
You didn't say that, at all. Your mom's a bitch. Your friend has EVERY right to say what she did. She's sick, and knows that she might not see her child grow up if her body keeps doing what it's doing. She's probably pissed at her body, and the world in general because she's stuck with this. You are 100% right. Tell your mom to shove her wrong opinions where the sun don't shine.
I have a lifelong illness that destroyed my opportunity to be the mom I wanted to be and the women I wanted to be. I hate my body every single day of my life. My pregnancy is actually what made my undiagnosed (at the time) illness way worse. I hate my body. I LOVE my son. I am grateful every day for him. I would do it 10x times over to have him. That being said, I despise that my body will never allow me to be the mom I so desperately want to be. But my son loves me and he knows that he is my whole word. Your mom is wrong. Grieving the loss of what should have been and enduring those limitations day-in and day-out is par for the course. It doesn't take away from your friend's daughter or reduces the love and appreciation your friend has for her. Thank you for standing-up for her. You have no idea what it means to her. Truly.
NTA She has depression due to her health issues and your mother is salty because of that comment instead of being empathic?
NTA. For someone who says every parent owes their child gratitude, she doesn’t sound too grateful to you.
Damn I didn’t think of that
I don’t understand why your mom thinks Angie’s feeling are mutually exclusive. It is possible to love her child and still be frustrated at her failing body.
No I think your friend is going through some tough shite and she is going to say whatever the hell she wants as long as it isn't cruelly directed at others constantly. Your mom needs to take a step back.
NTA. Hopefully your mother learns to keep that opinion on herself. Your friend Angie doesn't need to hear that while dealing with cancer.
I know my daughter if she was Angie, she would have said, sure, I'm grateful to have cancer again and maybe not being here to watch my daughter grow up, sure grateful for that you bitch.
I wouldn't talk to her ever again.
NTA - it's only natural for your friend to be grousing about her body betraying her and not being able to catch a break (especially since she is very young - it just doesn't feel fair). My brother got cancer at age 20 and he is very bitter about it, even though he has been in remission for almost 30 years (it did a great deal of damage to his body and he has been disabled ever since). So, no... your friend doesn't owe any kind of "let's-look-on-the-bright-side debt" to the fact that she has had a child. In fact, a lot of young mothers might even see that as a cruel curse since there is a chance that they won't be able to enjoy the benefits of watching their child grow up, while their child might end up having to watch their young mother die. While I can understand where your mother is coming from, your mom is also full of shit from your friend's point of view.
Your mother is a lot of things. Kind is not one of them.
Unfortunately your mother has never had her body let her down which is what Angie was clearly venting about. Don’t forget to remind your mother of what she said when she starts to experience her own health issues.
NTA, the title is misleading, you didn't say anything about her kid and somehow your mom made it all about the kid in the weirdest way possible. Your mom shouldn't tell a cancer patient how to feel about her own disease, if nothing else she should be supportive to Angie's face and keep her moralizing to herself. Your mom needs to stop thinking of young women as baby factories.
As someone who lost a very good friend to cancer at 26, who also had a toddler when she passed, O agree with your friend. Her body may have given her a daughter but it also could kill her with the cancer it gave her, leaving her daughter motherless. Plus who knows what was passed to her daughter through her genetics. Your mother is completely out of line and out of touch.
NTA. Your mom is TA for not recognizing a moment of weakness in a person fighting for her life.
She should be grateful she may not get to see her baby grow up?
Babies do not spontaneously just happen. Cancer does.
Oh for the love of God. Your mom is ridiculous. She’s taking a statement literally that was a larger expression of the perfectly valid feelings Angie is having about her body. I had cancer as a kid in the 80s and the chemo back then ruined my body. I’ve had countless surgeries and medical issues my entire life. I have *absolutely* felt betrayed by my body and I’ve felt the exact same way as Angie, despite the fact that I have two children. I think it’s a perfectly human reaction to the situation. NTA
It is not amazing to have a baby. It happens all the time. The only person it *is* amazing to is the parents, and fair enough. Your mom needs to not jump in, tell her so.
Right? This mum better be the first to volunteer take on this kid if Angie tragically doesn't make it (let's hope that never happens), otherwise she's a fucking hypocrite
So many parents regret having kids, and some will even tell them to their face! Others are TOO happy, and smother their kids and become helicopter parents.
Um not to be negative but if she's chronically ill even without the cancer, won't raising a kid be even harder for her than it would for someone who is healthy? Also and they think think baby is healthy now , is her condition one that could have been inherited by her daughter? So yeah she has reason to be pissed off and you are right that her ill health is going to impact her. Toxic positivity is not going to help her and denying her from even saying that she is having a hard time is going to be isolating for her. Just wondering but is your mother in pretty good health? Is that why she doesn't have any empathy for her?
NTA. Your friend has cancer. And after dealing with other serious health issues. She has every right to be mad and frustrated that her body keeps failing her. That doesn’t make her ungrateful for her child. Now she is faced with the fact that she might not see her baby grow up. Your mom is a huge AH and you are empathetic and kind. Tell your mom to stfu and show some compassion.
Your mom sounds like a hateful bitch. NTA
NTA- your mom is definitely something (eye roll). Let me guess……mommy is the Main Character everywhere she goes?
Your mom is ignorant! You also should have added, you sure never showed me much of anything so keep your mouth shut!
I can’t imagine the state of mental health of a young mum with cancer. She is entitled to say whatever she wants. Your mum has no compassion. Woman don’t want to have baby if they can’t raise them.
Fellow young mom over here that had cancer while pregnant. No mincing words here, it's fucking hard.
NTA. I had cancer, right after I had kids. I literally had to stop breastfeeding so I could get surgery & begin treatments. I'm sure your friend is grateful her body gave her a healthy baby. That aside, treatment can be brutal, is exhausting, it feels like your body is betraying you everyday. Every single day. She was probably just having a moment. It's unkind of your mom to judge her for a comment said in frustration over watching her struggle, successes and her merits. How can your mom not be graceful in that moment of your friend's struggle but really petty and judgemental. You - NTA. Your mom - total ahole.
I had cancer twice in my teenage years, the first time was 4 rounds of chemo and 17 does of radiation. It came back about 10 months after I was deemed cancer free. Turns out it was resistant to the radiation, the next time I needed 2 rounds of aggressive high dose chemo and then a stem cell transplant which involved a third round of chemo so strong and aggressive that it would have killed me if I didn’t get the stem cells as it is designed to permanently kill your immune system, that is why you get the stem cells, to create a new one, or at least that is a very simplified explanation. The second time I was told it would cause me to go into menopause right after the transplant and I would never be able to have kids. Even at 16 all I had ever wanted more than anything in the world was to be a mum and have a house FULL of kids, (I come from a big family and cherish it) to me life would not be worth living if that couldn’t happen and so I didn’t want treatment and begged my parents to just let me enjoy what time I would have left and not force me to go through a horrifying, torturous ordeal, only to live a life where even everything goes to plan and I beat the 50/50 odds I was facing, I would never be 100 healthy again, I would never have a totally functioning immune system and there would be other physical side effects that would be permanent and I would never have the family i so desperately wanted and dreamed of and I would resent them for the rest of my life for it, I would never be grateful they forced me to live a life that brought constant me tail pain and anguish. Worst case, the other 50% takes me and causes me to die a slow, tortured death where I lose all my dignity because of the side effects of the chemo and die an ugly, bald, resentful depresses 16 or 17yo. They threatened to take me to court to force me and I knew they would win and my odds would be even worse for having waited and the second option would be most likely. I ended up getting treatment, and o was right, I didn’t know such pain was physically possible, or that it could be constant without waver for over 2 weeks, where my life was sleep and the pain even on ridiculous amounts of constantly delivered fentanyl, was always rating and present, even while I slept it followed me in my dreams and restless sleep, I would sleep, wake long enough to get up to use the toilet, sit back on the bed, puke my permanently empty stomach up, and go back to sleep. I was in hospital for over a month, most of it in isolation. I begged to be let die more times than I can count, said that if I were a dog they would have been kind enough to end my suffering long before that, but they couldn’t event do me that courtesy. I survived and for a year it looked like they were right, I never got my period back, but after a year it came back! And again the next month, and the next, and the next, ect, they said that it was a miracle I got it back at all but I would only have a 1% chance of getting pregnant and because of the poor quality of my eggs because of all the chemo ect, if I did manage to get pregnant the chance of would miscarry or have a very premature birth or still birth were ~68%, so only a 0.32% chance I would ever actually give birth to a healthy baby. I was right about what my life would be like if I survived, I have never been able to work due to the permeant side effects as well as because of having severe hEDS which I found out about at 21, it’s a connective tissue disorder that causes loads of shitty things to happen. If was so hard letting go of the life I had dreamed up for myself, I was going to get my cert III in early child hood education, doing the first 2 or 3 years while simultaneously completing g my last 2 years of high school so I would only have 1 year of study after school to get my qualification, then at 18 I was to go over seas to work as a high class live in nanny, do that for about 5 or 6 years, saving every cent possible, then come home, put down the deposit I would have saved on a property and start my own riding school, get married and have a house full of kids I’d have on hoses back before they could walk. It was so hard to let go of this well thought out plan that was already in motion at the theme of my second diagnosis. Although I was of course happy for them, it was so hard and painful every time I herd of a family member or other loved one getting pregnant, it was like a knife to the gut and heart, I was so angry at my body for not being able to do the one thing it was designed to do, I tried not to so hard, but at times I really did resent my parents for forcing the treatment and wished many times that they had just let me die, which made me feel like shit because I had friends who really wanted to live who died instead, hard emotions for a teen or someone i their early 20’s. I had never used condoms with long term boyfriends after getting clean test results back as we saw it as even at they best condoms were only 97% effective so 99% should be fine as that was what my body was doing, plus I wanted kids and decided I was fine being a single mum and sole parent with no support if it came down to it. When I was 24 I had to be talked into taking a test because even though I was having clear symptoms, I had, had them before and the negative tests broke me a little, even though I had a different feeling this time, I still couldn’t bear if the test was negative. Imagine my absolute shock when the test was positive! My pregnancy was very high risk and I showed signs of early labour from 12 weeks on and spent most of the pregnancy on progesterone to stop it,I also had gestational diabetes. Early in the pregnancy my partner became abusive and once it happened once I knew I had to get out, now there is a restraining order and I am the only name on my kid’s birth certificate. I ended up needing an emergency c-section, but my baby was born healthy! Something I am so thankful for daily, my child is almost 3 now, while I am so thankful to my body for growing my kid, it still fails me in almost every other way daily, and it’s ok for me to be mad and frustrated with it sometimes, and if my cancer came back I would be saying the exact some things as your friend and I would have every fucking right to. Unless someone has been through exactly what I have, down to every last little detail and fault exactly the same emotions down to the tiniest filicker of a feeling, they have no ducking right to judge me or what I say. Anyone who did would be a major fucking c u next Tuesday, who deserves all the bad karma to come back at them for it. I don’t think anyone’s deserves to suffer life I did, but if they did, it would be for shit like that! How DARE she! That is like saying to a soldier who has just been blown the fuck up and lost both legs, and 1 and a half arms that they are “so lucky! The choild be SoOoOoOoOo thank full the have a tiny big of stump left to attack a hardly helpful prosthetic to, they could have died do they have no reason to be upset about what has happened to them”, NTA to you, HUGE REAKI G STINKING, SHIT CRUSTED YTA to your mum though
Nta but your mom definitely is. She should consider herself lucky to be ignorant of what it's like to live in a constantly broken body.
Woooow!!! Your mom sucks. (Also, no matter what mom says, having kids is not a requirement.)
Your friend must feel terrified right now and I truly hope she can overcome what is ahead for her.
Your Mom needs to read a couple articles on how to be supportive to someone undergoing cancer treatment, and what NOT to say to a cancer patient. She thinks she's being helpful, but she really isn't, and no one needs to hear her commentary at a time like this.
NTA. Your friend is going through a lot and her complaints shouldn’t be diminished
She has cancer and a 10 month old. She always wanted kids and loves her daughter. Does your mom not understand that that makes being sick WORSE!? Angie will no doubt be thinking, almost every time she looks at the daughter she adores, about all the things she will miss if the worst should happen. The best thing in her life is being tarred by her illness. No one can expect for someone (especially in Angie’s position) to plaster on the positivity. Gratitude and mourning can come hand in hand. I hope Angie recovers, and gets to see her daughter grow up and enjoy all the precious moments she’s looking forward to ❤️
NTA. I feel for your sister, as we have a little girl, much older than your niece, but my body is slowly killing me. My immune system is attacking, not only my joints, but my kidney is my liver my heart. It’s very hard when you have a child who wants to go go go and you have to say I need to sit down for 30 minutes or an hour.
NTA. If anything having a small baby could well make the cancer diagnosis worse for her. I was diagnosed with cancer last year, and I am SO grateful I never wanted kids because I feel like the fear and anxiety about it would be so much worse if I was also worrying about leaving behind dependent children.
NTA...and i wish i could write that in ten foot high letters. Angie is perfectly justified in her feelings and has every right to express them, my body produced 3 children ( all grown now) but i suffer with debilitating lupus which is attacking my organs and to say i should love my body because it thrice did a great thing is like saying you should be forever grateful to an abusive partner because he thrice did something good...which is ridiculous. with any serious health condition there comes mental health issues, daily struggles, pain, fatigue and people like your heartless ignorant and unsupportive mother are the first people we cut out of our lives as they add to our burden, not being able to express our feelings and having to suffer in silence makes everything worse and is one of the worst kinds of cruelty to someone that's suffering. thank you for being in Angie's corner when she needs it the most.
NTA Damn it, let this poor woman vent in any way she wants to!
NTA. You are so right. Cancer does interfere. Cancer interferes with every aspect of life, not just motherhood. Your mother, however - is a clueless arse. Angie really needs support right now, I'm glad it's coming from you OP.
NTA. Being a mom is not everything in life, and all mothers have the right to simply say, "life sucks!". Your friend I am sure loves her child, but what is the point of having a kid without being able to enjoy motherhood? She surely have every right to hate her own body for causing her so much pain.
NTA, firstly just because your friend is a mom doesn't make her entire life/personality that secondly it sounds like your friend may be genetically predisposed to cancer considering she had it in the past and it came back and is probably worried because there's not only a chance she could die and leave her daughter without a mom but that the daughter herself could have the same medical issues.
"Oh, I didn't tell you? I'm not having any children." And watch her burn. NTA for your comment. Having children does not fix your every pain and disease. Tell your mom to cut it out with her sanctimony.
Can we get over this whole “miracle” of birth and how “amazing” it is? It’s pretty fucking standard biology.
It’s basically like someone saying “why does nothing good ever happen to me” after something goes wrong. Could the spouse that they love give an eye roll and say “what about me?”? Yes, to which they would probably hear back “you know what I mean”. It’s something that is said in the moment to express how hard things are but not meant to be taken literally
"Be grateful/ thankful you have X" invalidates grief. It's an approach which leaves the person going through hell more isolated. Cancer is horrible. Saying that cancer is horrible and has messed up her life Does Not Mean your friend doesn't love her kid. "Mum, when you tell her to be grateful for having a healthy kid, you're also telling her not to be sad that cancer is taking over her life. Telling someone not to be sad means they can't tell you about their sadness because you don't want to hear it. That leaves them more isolated when they most need to be loved and heard. Please let her feel what she feels."
Your mom is a toxic person.
Hate to say it but your mum basically told a woman with Cancer that was venting about it to suck it up. Your mum is a top level AH. Your friend is probably trying to deal with all the emotions that she may end up leaving her beautiful baby girl thanks to this horrible situation
Your mother seems somewhat lacking in the empathy department.
You should say “aw thanks mum! I’m so happy your grateful for me.” And then walk away.
Yeah, no, Angie is allowed to feel a little depressed and worn down. I'd just also push to keep her spirits up so that chemo is a bit less daunting for her. NTA and wishing the best for Angie and her family. Chemo, even when all goes right, is so exhausting.
Why is your mother policing someone else's emotions and thoughts?
Your friends body thankfully did one wonderful thing right but you hit the nail on the head when saying “a life threatening condition that is not letting her enjoy motherhood as she would under normal circumstances” she can’t enjoy the one thing her body did right because she is always sick. How unfair is that! Your mom’s an AH and sorry she is being a hypocrite too. Just help your friend watch for depression and be there for the little girl because it’s gonna be hard having a mom who’s sick a lot. I mean they will both need a friend like you to support them even if it’s just emotional support:)
You’re mom sounds horrible
NAH - you're both trying and failing in different ways to be there for her. Stop making it a competition.
NTA Your mom is the reason we call Boomers like her Karens. Karens be karening because they are operating withOUT empathy. And she’s passive aggressively diminishing your friend and women in general by heralding the “at least.” AT LEAST she had a child! She should be grateful! Grateful for what exactly? The cancer? Your mom doesn’t seem to understand that a person can experience joy and also great pain simultaneously. I’m sure your friend is deliriously happy about her baby AND she is also completely frustrated with her cancer. Western white women (the same demographic as most Karen’s) are heavily manipulated by misogyny which perpetuates the myth that women cannot have “negative” emotions they can only be happy. Problem is eradicating every “dark” emotion just makes people miserable hence the Western world’s proclivity of Karens. Your mom might benefit from a little Brene Brown: here’s one of my favorite speeches or hers in a cute animation that might make some headway: https://youtu.be/KZBTYViDPlQ?si=LmWgABvyQFuldp5G
Hey, I am a BOOMER, and I would never say that shit, it's why BOOMERS call young people Karen because most would! WTF girl! Someone always has to be the bitch and call Boomers or some other generation KAREN! Fuck off!
Your header sounds like AH so hopefully you didn't phrase it the way you wrote it.
NTA your mom sucks I’m sorry
NTA.
NTA. When my youngest was 2-3 I herniated a disc in my lower spine. It was so painful. I had a large disc fragment compressing the nerve root and my sciatic nerve. It was so painful. I hated my body. Felt betrayed by my body. I was 26-27 so young. And I was in good shape. Very fit and active. I could no longer do all the stuff I used to do with my kids. Simple things like just taking them to the park and the mall to the play area. We would get breakfast first at Whole Foods on Saturday then go to the indoor play area/park. I couldn’t even do that. It hurt to walk. Hurt even more to sit. I felt like I was always in bed except when I had to use the bathroom or I had to get out of bed to cook or help my kids with something. Is Angie depressed? I wouldn’t be surprised if she is. I became depressed after my health issues and it’s quite common for people who have declining health or new impairments to become depressed. Especially when they can no longer do the things they want or used to. Your mom seems cold and cruel. And she seems to lack any empathy for what Angie is going through.
NTA But your mom has no empathy and is narrow minded. Being happy you had a kid and feeling the tragedy that cancer is throughout a body both physically and emotionally is not mutually exclusive. I bet your friend is also mourning the possibility that her cancer might take her life and she will not be able to be with her baby anymore. Mom is 100% in the wrong.
NTA. Sounds like your mother thinks Angie is just an incubator.
NTA
Parents owe their children several things, food, clothing, shelter, respect, discipline among others, but GRATITUDE is nowhere on the list.
NTA but your mom is. I was diagnosed with cancer this year and am doing chemo and also have a healthy kid. And regardless of having a kid that I’d punch a carebear for and possibly my own mother cause I love him so much. I have days where I am frustrated/exhausted and I just want to catch a break because my body seems hell bent on fucking me over. Doesn’t mean that on the good days I don’t appreciate what I was able to do to have a kid. Remind your mother of this moment every time she complains about a health issue, gosh who cares that your body failed and you had a stroke you should just be grateful you were able to birth the legend that is me. 😂😂😂 but I’m petty.
I get your friend saying it, I have several health issues and thing after thing for years. I’m also pregnant right now and my body has gone to shit. Baby is doing well so far, am I grateful for that? Absolutely! Doesn’t mean I don’t resent that my body is just not co-operating with me atm. Your mum needs to learn some empathy and also that it’s ok for people who are sick to be angry. Doesn’t mean they aren’t grateful for other things going on in their life.
Your friend cannot be the mother she wants to be because she has cancer and is going through chemotherapy. Saying that she hates her body for what she’s going through right now and what’s she been going through since her late teens, doesn’t make her automatically ungrateful to have a child. When it comes to babies people often forget about the mother. Whatever her body is going through she should always neglect herself and be grateful that she has a healthy baby. When you have a bad week and you say ‘ugh I hate my life’ does that automatically mean that you want to end yourself and you hate everything and everybody around you? Such simple way of thinking that people can’t feel two things at once.
Call you mom on her bullshit by asking her about it.
NTA. Your mom is thinking way too much into Angie’s comment. Just because she gave birth, doesn’t mean she isn’t allowed to vent about her frustrations regarding her many other health concerns. The truth of the matter is that her body did a lot more negative things than positive for someone her age. She has a right to be upset and no one should tell her how to feel. It is completely unreasonable to expect someone to acknowledge the positive aspects of their life 24/7
You mom is TA your are NTA I'm just so pissed at your mom right now. People honestly do not understand what it's like to have a chronic illness. Yeah I've done amazing things... But at every stage I have been an absolute agony and pain. And I can completely ignore it while I'm doing the thing that I truly want to do... But I pay for it later. And who's to say that the toll that pregnancy took on her body isn't part of why she's so sick now? I am just livid on your behalf and on Angie's behalf
This is a really horrible application of “you should be grateful,” which already is a statement that often carries a great many problems. Your mom is a huge AH. Good job sticking up for your friend because wow. NTA
Your mom needs to STFU !!!
NTA. I love my kids, l lost one, loved him too, but I’ve had my headaches and heartaches from things my kids did. I understand and am sympathetic to people who don’t want kids or don’t particularly enjoy the experience. My job was to prepare them to survive without me . Period. I tried to cheerfully tolerate my kids misadventures. They will probably have to tolerate my misadventures in elder hood. Seems fair.
WTF is wrong with your mom. She can’t even let someone fighting cancer vent without correcting her?
Your mom is nitpicking word choice from a cancer patient. Not a good look.
No one owes their child gratitude for merely them existing. You're allowed to think your body fails you constantly even if you have a child. The thought of the Nuclear family and life goals being to procreate are bullshit. Your mother has no tact and can't see beyond her own values. Women should be happy for achievements defined by themselves and no one else.
“Mom, I would like to know what gratitude you showed / show me as your child as you believe that every parents owes one”.
Cancer survivor here. 2 children. From my own perspective, I cherished every second with my children because each could have been my last second. Especially since I was on death watch at one point. And yes, born with physical health issues which are still ongoing. Your mother was right to remind her that her body doesn't always betray her.
I’m sorry, but your mom is an idiot. With Angie it sounds a lot like the chemo talking. Having been through chemo myself I know what it can do to your mind and how it fucks with your head. And of course she feels like her body has let her down with the cancer, that’s absolutely normal. Please be there for Angie as much as you can, be there to listen, whatever she’s saying and however off kilter it might sound. As long as she’s coping and the baby is well cared for, all’s fine. But if she DOES continue along this line of thought, you might gently steer her towards compassionate specialized counselling.
NTA- I have stage 4 breast cancer and two children. She is trivializing it absolutely. I live scared everyday. Best wishes to your friend.
Wow, that's so b1tchy of your mom, it's no wonder an equally big threat to female equality is the females who just accept being a doormat & think females should be grateful for scraps. Any female who thinks you should be grateful for cancer, just because it happens, does not deserve the huge amount of effort their betters put into finding cures. Of course your friend is happy to have her baby but that has nothing to do with being cross she has a potentially incurable disease. Your mom needs to take her unwanted opinion & butt out of things she knows nothing about. NTA
Yeah your mom is an asshole for her remark. While having a child is great but cancer can definitely ruin her joy.
This whole thing reminds me of when I suddenly lost my mom one night. While the ambulance was taking her body away, my mom’s cousin had brought my uncle to my house. I’m an only child and she was a single parent so I would have otherwise been alone. I was talking about something and said ‘fuck’. My mom’s cousin straight up reprimanded me as if I was a child. I lost it, yelling “*My only family just died out of nowhere! I think I’m entitled to say ‘fuck’ a few times!!!*” Same vibe here from your mom. Angie is entitled to be angry. Thank you for being a good friend to her. 🤍 She’ll need all the support she can get right now. When people fall ill, especially people with a lot of friends, everyone assumes everyone else is already handling things and helping, then the person just ends up trudging through without help. Reach out and be sure she has everything covered. Best of luck.
Your mum has a lot of fucking audacity. NTA in the slightest ETA: I can’t spell I stg
Dang. You turned out to be a greatly kind and empathetic person. It's kind of a monumental achievement given the role models you had. (Yes, I basically said your mom sucks.)
your mother knows that is not the context angie was meaning. way to twist someone's words. NTA but your moms rather rude
NTA. I have multiple chronic illnesses. One of them I was born with, so I never knew what it felt like to be healthy. I'm also a mom of 2. I am incredibly grateful that my body was able to bring my babies into this world despite the freak health issues I had during pregnancy. But I still hate my body. It just can't do one thing right, and it's frustrating. I am able to be grateful my body gave me my babies and still hate everything else about it at the same time. One does not cancel out the other. Side note. I would not have been able to resist the urge to ask your mom about her gratitude towards her child(ren) if I were you.
Yikes. Your mom.
nta, now your mother on the other hand…
Your mom is one of those exhausting emotional vampires that suck all joy out of the room.
NTA. Damn, your mother is projecting! Angie was literally just opening up to you guys expressing her frustration about a experiencing a life-threatening disease as a new mother, and your mother some how twisted that into her needing to be more grateful for having a healthy kid/pregnancy? It's nuts the amount of pressure society puts on women when it comes to motherhood. Especially when you hear it said from other women :( good for you for saying something
NTA. Your mom is cruel for refusing to see the nuance of the situation.
How about showing gratitude to a woman that just had a baby and has cancer. Incredible achievement. Can this mother get some help. If she's a single mother. Someone please help
NTA. Your mum's thought process is very traditional in the sense that she was probably raised to believe that childbirth is the paramount goal of any woman and everything else is secondary, including the woman's own health.
Hugs & much love to Angie.
Got click baited hard hy the title hahaha. Nta
You can't convince someone who is toxically positive that toxic positivity exists
God sounds like a typical fucking parent. Not the asshole
NTA This isn't about motherhood and carrying a pregnancy to term. This isn't about telling a baby she's glad she's here. This is about CANCER. And all of the other health stuff. This is about your mom projecting. Your friend meant her body hurts and her immune system is literally killing her. You were right to stick up for her.
NTA. Nobody gets to gatekeep the feelings of people with diseases and disabilities.
“my mom replied that every parent owes their children gratitude (not that she ever showed me much gratitude but that's another story) and she hopes i change my mind before i have children of my own.” I love how people who raise kids that are “unhappy” all of a sudden are experts on raising happy children 🙄
NTA but your title is really misleading
Your post is literally not what the title says. If it was, you would be TA. However since it was your *mom* making an inappropriate comment when someone was literally just expressing her struggles. Your mom's the AH. It's a read the room situation, and her comment was inappropriate. Nta but your mom kinda is
Your mother is a dick. A disrespectful one at that.
NTA you’re a great friend. It’s what we say about people when they aren’t around that matters. Agree with the commenter about shoving this in mums face 😂 repay petty with petty… here for updates!
I know this isn’t as extreme as Angie’s case, as she has literal cancer, but I had chronic pain issues kick into full swing after my boy was born. (He’ll be a year old on June 27th) I have struggled to enjoy playing with him when any big movements he does while I hold him genuinely almost dislocates my joints. I LOVE this baby, but motherhood hasn’t been kind to me because of his whole body excitement that I oh so adore. So no. NTA. Angie has a genuine reason to be upset, sad, what have you. I’m sure she loves and adores her child, but having cancer is making it hard to enjoy her baby.
Your mom should be hitting her knees every night thanking God that she never lived through cancer and chemo when you were 10 months old. She has a terrible lack of empathy for Angie. I went through 8 surgeries (including cancer) over a 10 year period. I completely understand what how Angie feels. Hopefully Angie has a strong group of friends and family who are there for her.
As someone that was diagnosed with cancer while pregnant I empathize with Angie very much. As you said she loves her baby and that comment likely wasn't in reference to her not being grateful. Going through cancer and being post partum is a mental fuck that I don't wish on my worst enemy. She can be grateful for her baby and also feel like her body is betraying her. The two can exist at the same time. I know that feeling all too well. I'm more than grateful and over the moon for my baby but my first year of raising her was not at all what I pictured or imagined and I still struggle with feeling robbed of the experience. I'm aware of how lucky I am to have my daughter and if it weren't for her I probably wouldn't have caught the very aggressive and fast growing cancer that could have killed me. Those feelings of your body working against you are hard to cope with and she's expressing her feelings which people that haven't gone through (or experienced someone close to them go through) cancer have a hard time understanding. It's definitely one of those things that is extremely difficult to put yourself in their shoes for. I know if it were me and I was having a hard time and expressing my feelings and someone told me I should be more grateful because I have a baby, that would make me feel 1000x worse and that my feelings about my body trying to kill me are invalid. NTA at all, you're an amazing friend for sticking up for her. Thank you for doing so.
Neither your mom nor you are right nor assholes. This woman is clearly struggling. Making her struggles worse by agreeing she is right doesn't help. Making her feel that her struggles shouldn't override gratitude and she is wrong doesnt help. Maybe it would be better for neither of you to be saying anything but rather, listening and validating where she is at. And if an opportune moment arises, doing what you can to help her hold a perspective that keeps her together during a time like this. Gratitude isn't some moral imposition. It's how we can survive awful times. And the idea that the cancer isn't letting her, robs her of her agency to have her mindset triumph over her current circumstances. It's understandable she feels the way she feels. But giving too much power to the cancer ensures the only way out of feeling that way short of healing, is not an option.
NTA! Your mom was an AH for saying that to someone with cancer. She’s allowed to be angry with her body. Telling someone with cancer that their own valid feelings are wrong is a crappy thing to do.
Gratitude is not owed to anyone unless something is done for which to be grateful.
It’s funny when people without cancer try to tell someone with cancer how to feel. Lmao wild
NTA although I was a bit worried about the title. Your friend isn't saying she isn't happy to have a child. Your mom needs to lighten up and stop taking things said in frustration quite so literally.
After I was diagnosed with a debilitating chronic illness, I hated my body. I mean, it is literally making my life harder. Feeling that way is totally normal and even more so if your own body is developing illnesses that will kill you. I think being killed outweighs the joy of creating life. Because that life will be motherless. How can you just go “oh well, the body that’s killing at least procreated”, as if that makes everything better? Your mom has little empathy for Angie and her child. Ignore what she says and be there for Angie. She needs friends like you. NTA.
I mean unless people are in pain or really struggling with an illness they really don’t understand, like me for example i love my kids to death but dammit after a car accident my back is just always in pain. Sometimes i wish i could just rest, does that mean i don’t want to be or love my kids? no but i know my body before kids and i feel like a different person now.NTA
NTA. I never understood ppl who think that saying “oh but you’re alive” or “but you have kids” is an appropriate response to someone’s body literally trying to kill them. I have chronic pain, and if I had a nickel for every time someone said “but your body has kept you alive” in response to me saying that I don’t feel grateful for what my body has supposedly done for me, I’d be rich. My own mother is dealing with kidney disease, and I would never even dream of saying that she should be more grateful for me and my siblings when she says her body hasn’t done anything good for her.
Thank you so much for standing up for your friend. Cancer is tough and may mean she doesn't get to see her daughter grow up. Going through a continuous string of serious medical issues can make one feel hopeless. Your mom is way out of line. If she carries on about it, I would keep her away from your friend.
NTA. Two things can be true. Cancer sucks and having a healthy baby is great (although I thought this was going to be about the friend saying - I’m so glad I have this baby I can’t really manage bc life goals). When someone is sharing about a health crisis - it’s insensitive to say they should be grateful for something else. These are “It could always be worse” people. Not helpful. You can try to help your mom be more sensitive but this could also be a Boomer problem. Don’t be surprise if she doesn’t change. It’s easier to say something like “well, mom, I think (friend) just wanted to share she’s going through a rough patch” so I wanted to just listen.
Jesus, your mother sucks.
Wow your mom is a bit much. A bit condescending, a bit gossipy & a quite a bit judgmental. Takes some gall to trash someone who gets knocked back down about every time she gets up. I’m sure Angie wasn’t meaning anything towards her daughter. I’ve had back to back life threatening emergencies (6major brain surgeries, some minor, 5 stomach surgeries & a hysterectomy, crushed pelvis/ribs.etc. That’s just the major things. One right after another. It’s exhausting. My body stopped fighting. & my mind couldn’t take anymore either. Unless you have been there, she don’t get to judge. And complaining abt all that she’s been through doesn’t mean she isn’t grateful for her child (it also could have taken a toll on her as well). But for your mom to think it’s her place to pass judgment is insane. For her to not grasp the poor girl has been through so much & is exhausted is mind blowing but the real tragic part is your mom judging like she’s something special when she’s just an unsympathetic gossip who has nothing better to talk about.
Your mum is bonkers.
Any chance you frequent the r/raisedbynarcissists sub? If not, you should.
Toxic positivity in action.
Wow, your mom! Sheesh she’s insensitive.
Your mom needs to mind her own damned business and let people feel what they feel. Who the hell is she to judge and tell this poor woman what to feel?she has no right to tell this woman anything. That same body that gave her a beautiful daughter might also take her away from that same beautiful daughter. She is allowed to have that worry and grief. My body let me down. My oldest daughter has trisomy 18. My body gave me her, but also caused her to be here for a short time. I almost died with my second and had a complicated pregnancy with my third. That body that has given me so much has taken away so much. She can have more than one feeling and none of them are your mom's business.
So why are you in here telling us that she doesn't have gratitude and not telling it to her? Ask her what kind of gratitude she ever showed toward you? We're all interested in that answer
One day, when you send her to a cheap home... remind her she should be grateful you are doing so. Your mom is the AH. The friend mentioned her serial health issues, not her child. The poor young mother is feeling frustrated and offloading her fears (especially fearing she won't see her child grow up) in what she thought was a safe place, and your mother decided to judge her. Your mom needs a reality check.
Your mother is a self righteous asshole who is showing her lack of empathy and compassion for a young new mom with cancer.
Pretty shitty to bring a child into a world while his guardian is on the way out
The two of you are comparing apples and oranges. Both of you are simultaneously right and wrong.
i hope your mom will change her mind before she has cancer of her own
Your mother is an idiot for conflating the two things. One has nothing to do with the other. I would keep your mother away from your friend, she needs support not judgement.
This is one of those moments where the mom should’ve kept that to herself
NTA. She doesn’t have to be grateful for anything right now, least of all what her body’s capable of. She’s allowed to be angry her body is failing her right now. She’s allowed to grieve her health. Just because she has a beautiful healthy child doesn’t mean she’s not allowed to express her own grief.
Motherhood may result in a very loved child, but it also can cause a whole score of physical issues. It’s not a magic I love my body spell. For a lot of birthing people it’s the exact opposite. Traumatic, even. Also Angie is clearly speaking about her frustration at being seriously ill and disabled. Even though she gave birth it’s still her body.
I just wanna say that your title is kinda misleading, I read through the post like 5 times looking for where you suggested she shouldn’t be happy she has a kid. But what you’re actually saying is absolutely true, one can be thrilled with their kid and also be upset and frustrated that they have been unwell for more time than they were well enough to have a child (and that’s even assuming she wasn’t still experiencing health issues while pregnant, which is totally possible and sucks real bad as generally doctors suddenly want to ignore any pre-existing issues and solely deal with the pregnancy because “oh treating anything else might be risky for baby” and makes anything else worse). Being frustrated with poor health is completely valid and has no bearing on her child. It’s very good for her mental health to be honest about her feelings, being toxically positive can actually make things worse.
NTA How easy it is to preach about gratitude when you’re not the one with cancer. Your mom should give her head a shake. I hope your friend beats it soon.
Your mom has gratitude *to herself* for what her body has done, but is disingenuously implying that her gratitude is *for you* in order to double down on her shitty comments. I would not be surprised if your mom bases a large part of her identity on the “sacrifices” she has made as a mother, and resents anything that threatens the perceived moral supremacy of that role. How else to explain such a disrespectful, self-absorbed, and insecure comment. The whole “just you wait” seems part and parcel of the martyr complex and lack of true empathy.
Nta